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Searching file 26

Message Number 266218
Cuban Health Care System View Thread
Posted by John H on 7/13/10 at 16:37

Recently there have been writings about the success of the English and Cuban Health Care Systems. The Cubans can point to one Doctor for every 190,000 people. The U.S. has approximately one Doctor for approximately ever 360,000 people. Looking beyond these numbers the average pay for a Cuban doctor is $25 per month. Yes $25 per month. If a Cuban Doctor practices overseas he is taxed at 67%. Most of these Cuban Doctors end up working as Nurses as their training is not that much more than one of our Nurses. If you enter a Cuban Hospital you must bring you own sheets and towels and many other things you expect from any hospital you go to. The Cubans also point to the death rate in child births. It is low but it is more than made up for by the deaths oft he mothers. Most women in Cuba will not use a Gynecologist as the infection rate is enormous as the use of sterile equipment is often ignored and your chance of infection are more so than if you go unexamined. Most Cuban Doctors have to have a second job such as a taxi driver, Gardner, etc. Our new appointee for the overseeing of health care funds for Medicare and Medicade under Obama-care is a big fan of the English system. He states the only sensible way to have a health care system is one run by the government. He has never directly supported the Cuban system but has insinuated that there method is one way to make health care available to all. Of course he comes from Harvard. Seems to me everyone comes from Harvard if you look at all the seats of power in this administration. If you need some cosmetic surgery I would not suggest you rush off to Cuba. I want my Doctor to make more than $25 a month and I do think there are ways to provide health care that is both efficient and effective other than under the government.

Result number: 1

Message Number 266052

The pic wouldn't copy. View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 7/03/10 at 22:18






Captured Palestinian 'garbage truck' from Gaza
FITTED TO SHOOT MISSILES



This is a captured Palestinian garbage truck from Gaza .

The truck is set up to fire 9 Kasem rockets and then drive off innocently.
The note pasted on the drivers door says In case of traffic violations, please contact The Palestinian Authority.

The Israelis have evidence of ambulances and emergency vehicles set up the same way.


Doesn’t it make you all “warm and fuzzy” that Obama just gave the Palestinians
400 million dollars from your taxes?

Result number: 2

Message Number 265743

Re: Vision problems and Lyrica View Thread
Posted by Ron on 6/14/10 at 12:27

Hi all,

Glad I found this thread because I'm in the same boat. I started taking lyrica (50mg) about a month ago to help treat the pain of a bone spur in my neck. I then slowly discovered problems with my eyes which soon worsened in a just few weeks. I never suspected it was the lyrica, but I'm now convinced the drug messed up vision. I'm 51 years, but never had problems with my eyes until now. Specifically blurred vision. My right eye seems to be worse, and I later notice visual spots which is real annoying. I'm a driver by trade, so my eyesight is very important to my profession. Due to this effect, I recently stopped taking the medication and visited an eye doctor. The doctor blamed the spots I was seeing as 'floaters', which I'm told is common and is caused by the fluid surrounding the eye. As far as the blurred vision goes, she suspects that I may have early stages of cataracts? As for my vision in general, the exam measured my sight as OD+2.00/OS+1.75. Unfortunately I didn't have the information of the mediation I was taking at the time of my exam, but will follow up and inform the doctor. Like I mentioned, I'm convinced that lyrica messed up my eyesight. Had I known that, I would never had taken it for I feel that the damage to my eyes are 'permanent' and won't go away. Furthermore, people should be made aware of it's side effects before taking the drug.

PS: Please keep us updated Kate and of your research.
Ron

Result number: 3

Message Number 265189

Re: On a more local level View Thread
Posted by John H on 5/17/10 at 13:23

Rick: I finished grade school In Highwood, IL in the northern suburbs of Chicago and then finished high school at Higland Park High School. I then attended Lake Forest College. One of my friends was a driver for the mob and he would pick up gamblers at a local train station and then drive them to various pubs in the north side of Chicago. My friend and I, as teens, would sometimes drive with his father and the gamblers and go into these places. We would go to the north side pubs that looked like any other pub other than they had a back room where all sorts of gambling was going on. They had large boards on the wall that kept up with the horse racing, all sorts of gambling like in Vegas. Policemen were near the front door so clearly the Chicago Police were in on the action. There were clearly some very rich people and mean looking mob guys in the places. This went on through my four years of high school and then in college. I never witnessed any trouble and there were many places like this on the near north side. I would assume city hall clearly had to know all this was going on and likely was in on the action. This was in the late 40's and early 50's at which time I left Chicago. Drinks were free in the back rooms if you qualified to get in. Chicago politics had to be some of the worst in the nation. This is the political system Obama made his bones in and sort of emulates today in the way in runs the government. Ram it down their throats where they like it or not. That wold be the way Mayor Daily would do it and no one would stand up to him.

Result number: 4

Message Number 264745

Re: Toyota View Thread
Posted by Sam83 on 4/19/10 at 18:46

There were several small problems that happened around the same time. First, the floor mat issue which has been solved. Second the sticky accelerator which they say has also been solved. Third, the Prius was said to have faulty braking software. All of these problems have now been solved by each new Toyota's brake override system. If the brakes and accelerator are pressed at the same time power will be cut from the wheels and the brakes will bring the car to a stop. This is a virtually immutable fail-safe. With this system it no longer matters if your accelerator gets stuck since as long as you hit the break you will stop accelerating.

And yes, you are right. If the previous drivers who suffered unintended acceleration had simply shut their car off or, even better, had shifted into neutral they would have been fine. I'm sure this is what most people would do but a select few simply panicked and did not think logically.

Result number: 5

Message Number 264302

Re: How does this part work? View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 3/26/10 at 12:03

So you have some kind of problem borrowing money to pay down the interest on the national debt! Rates will go up. Government restricts competition accross state lines then steps in to rescue the industry. We just doubled down on an unsustainable bankrupt entitlement program. Do we think healthcare is better in China? That's where we are headed not Europe. We owe China so much they are going to tolerate good times here with their money?

Funny how that social security story regarding payouts exceeding intake happening now not 2016 as predicted, came out after the bill passed.

There are some good things in the bill but we didn't face up to the real cost drivers first so we can afford to do those good things. I listed my concerns but it took me 5000 words.

Rick

Result number: 6

Message Number 264263

Re: Health Care View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 3/24/10 at 14:03

John,

In addition to the 32 million we have others with preexisting conditions that will now seek treatment. I may be one of them, I'm not intending to say that's all bad, just that we need to examine the capacity of the system. Also, as I have previously expressed thise that get 'free healthcare' will go in for things that I wouldn't when I was covered. I believe that one of the cost drivers and problems currently.... errr... current as of last week, was the slide toward insurance covering all visits opposed to insuring only for big bad and expensive things. It was perceived as free which drove demand. Now with someone else paying for more 'free' care, expect more demand. Drop the cost of anything as watch the consumption go up.

So now place artificial wage limits on doctoring, expect the supply to go down as demand is driven by subsidies and the ageing baby boom. What could possibly go wrong!

Rick

Result number: 7

Message Number 263077

Re: Hallux Rigidus surgery and recovery options View Thread
Posted by RAM on 1/27/10 at 21:23

I am a 58 year old truck driver with hallux rigidus. My opions are fusion or joint replacement. I don't want fusion because of the lenghthy recovery and I also want to be able to move my joint as I am quite active walking and biking. My Dr. has recomended the Biopro hemi implant. I would like some advise on the results of this and also the recovery time.

Result number: 8

Message Number 262799

Re: Geithner View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 1/15/10 at 15:46

I can't reconsile my view of Obama as the social activist, driver of 'social change' and redistribution of wealth, globalist, fundamental transformer, with playing footsie with the big bucks Wall Street boys. I suspect he's not a big fan of what Geithner has done.

Rick

Result number: 9

Message Number 262303

Re: health care bill View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 12/11/09 at 23:52

Allie:
It appears that the Obama Administration is not in favor of tort reform. The litigation situation is a huge driver of costs and adds to the difficulty with respect to the poor obtaining health care.
Dr. Ed

Result number: 10

Message Number 261841

Nuclear Power and Global Cooling View Thread
Posted by john h on 11/09/09 at 14:31

Today France is the most energy independent nation in Europe because of the enormous number of nuclear power plants they have and continue to build. The U.S. is currently building nuclear power plants in China which has created thousands of jobs for the equipment being made in the U.S. that go into these plants. We have 4 plants under construction in our nation which are due to come on line in 2016. There are now ways, which are being used in France, to use the spent nuclear rods and not have to store them in states that do not want them. The U.S. gets only 5% of its required power from such things as wind, solar, etc and it is unlikely we will not in many decades ever be able to stop using oil and gas. It is expected that in 10 years we will need 20% more energy than in use today. We do not need the small number of green people stop the production of gas or the drilling of oil or use of clean burning coal facilities. In the immediate future our energy needs are falling. Our oil and natural gas storage facilities are full and our oil refineries are only operating at about 85% of capacity. We have recently made some very large gas discoveries and oil. We are as close to becoming energy independent as we have ever been if we do not let the government mess everything up with new emission laws or other regulations. We should be building nuclear plants at all possible haste, Creates jobs and energy. The third world is not going to cut back on emissions and when you are hungry and make only a few hundred dollars a month rising waters are not that high on your priority list. They want to survive today. For three consecutive years the worlds average temperature has fallen.

Concerning global warming a compiled list of the most respected authorities agree that over the past year the earth has cooled between 0.65C--0.75C--a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming over the past 100 years.
This is the fastest temperature change either up or down ever recorded. Many of the scientist attribute this drop in temperature to a drop in solar activity which they claim is the largest driver in climate change and not greenhouse gasses. This does not mean that carbon dioxide is not acting to increase temperature but that now more powerful forces are now cooling it.

'

Result number: 11

Message Number 261701

Re: Letter to the editor View Thread
Posted by Max K on 11/03/09 at 14:12

For a child, food comes out of the refrigerator and water comes out of the faucet. The child doesn't understand not appreciate what it takes to put that food into the regrigerator (how many people had to work on so many levels, including the truck driver). The parents take care of it, so why worry about it?

Some people always remain childish in this way, in various degrees, and want their government to 'take care of them' like their parents used to, with food coming from food stamps and medical care coming from medical coupons. They have a tendency to demand more and more parenting functions of their government. They don't call it parenting function, they call it by other names like 'common sense legislation' or 'affirmative action' or 'health care is a right'.

Result number: 12
Searching file 25

Message Number 259800

Re: Did you know? View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 8/17/09 at 20:59

Allie,

Where did your freind visit? Italy has rather drastic differences, North vs. South. My inlaws are right off the boat from where the heel attaches to the boot on the Adriatic. That would be South where the pace is slow or not at all. My wife has been there several times and has some wild stories. She had to threaten an international icident just to get a bus driver to take her back to the hotel. He just decided he was done for the day. Mistook her for an ordinary American not one that knew the ropes!

Rick

Result number: 13

Message Number 259448

Moving to Mexico View Thread
Posted by Allie on 8/06/09 at 12:38

Dear Mr. President , U. S. Senate and Congress:

I'm planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my husband's health, and I would like to ask you to assist me. We're planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico , and we'll need your help to make a few arrangements..

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All Mexico government forms, printed in Spanish, need to also be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico, but, I don't plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won't make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put U S. flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.
13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say a critical thing about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who come to the U.S. from Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

Thank you so much for your kind help.
Sincerely,
U.S. Citizen & Taxpayer

Result number: 14

Message Number 259287

Re: My story and question- Best over the counter Night Splint for PF? View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 8/01/09 at 10:51

In my opinion, this is horrible. I've been posting on this website for many, many years, and I rarely, yes rarely say negative comments regarding a treating doctor since it's always easy to be a 'backseat' driver and second guess. Additionally, I'm not there to see and examine your foot.

However, 'assuming' your story is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, I am at a loss of words to explain why ANY doctor would continue to inject cortisone into a plantar fascia that is already injured. As you apparently already know, and I have already stated, repeated cortisone injections can not only cause a complete rupture of an already compromised plantar fascia, but can cause atrophy of the surrounding tissues including the plantar fat pad.

Many patients suffer from plantar fasciitis from simple overuse and it develops over time, but yours was from an acute injury. This type of injury isn't treated with additional stretching but MUST be treated like any other acute injury, and that's with rest.

A patient with your described injury in my office would immediately be placed in at LEAST a removable walking cast to allow the plantar fascia to rest and to immobilize the area. You should also be rolling a frozen water bottle under the area 20 min/hour to reduce pain/inflammation if you don't have any medical contra-indications using ice.

The MRI findings with the dark area could have been bleeding from the injury or an accumulation of fluid from the injection that never was absorbed by the body.

However, my strong opinion, based on this doctor's treatment would be to immediately find another doctor. I would like to know why this doctor would question whether or not you have a torn plantar fascia and be so concerned that he wanted to order an MRI, yet at the same time he gave you an injection prior to the MRI.

If I was concerned that a patient may have an injury that warranted an MRI, I certainly would never give an injection until AFTER I obtained the MRI results.

Result number: 15

Message Number 259267

Re: My new idea View Thread
Posted by john h on 7/31/09 at 09:57

Marie I am in agreement that people with preexisting conditions should not be denied insurance. Clearly they will cost more to insure and the cost will be spread among the many. However, I do not call that discrimination. That is in fact what insurance is all about. High risk people pay more than low risk people in nearly all insurance situation. Bad car drivers pay more than good drivers. Old people pay more than youn people for life insurance. You pay more for your home ownerns insurance if you live a long way from a fire station or in a hurricane area. Helath insurance companies are not being discriminating to the usual sense this sord is used. Pilots pay more than teachers. They are just being insurance companies.

Result number: 16

Message Number 259218

Re: My new idea View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 7/28/09 at 21:23

John:

I can see the thinking behind your idea. Keep in mind, though, that the public would actually need to use the $4000 to purchase health care. I do have an issue with the government or industry taking the public money just to give it back.

Government and industry are to blame for over 80% of the so-called healthcare 'crisis.' I don't expect those who created the problem to solve the problem.

Consider some of the ways that big government and big industry created the problem....

BUT, before I provide you with the list, consider the following from the greatest American of the 20th Century, Barry Goldwater:
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have”
Goldwater states in the second chapter of his classic, The Conscience of a Conservative: 'Throughout history, government has proved to be the chief instrument for thwarting man’s liberty. Government represents power in the hands of some men to control and regulate the lives of other men. And power, as Lord Acton said, corrupts men. “Absolute power,” he added, “corrupts absolutely.”'

Goldwater recognized that concentrations of power are a danger to individual freedoms whether derived from government or corporate interests. Consider the following from the liberal website, Common Dreams: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1116-03.htm

Now, back to the ways in which big government and big business harmed health care in the US:
1) cost shifting - 'Cost shifting' became a dirty word to government and industry back in the late 1980's and 1990's. It was the means by which costs for uncompensated care were shifted to the insured, ie, the corporations paying for the insured. Cost shifting was a good thing! Doctors accepted all patients irregardless of their ability to pay before the late 1980's. That practice was engaged in for over a century and ensured that all would get care. It was the elimination of cost shifting by the influence of big business and their government lackeys that resulted in patients not getting care.
2) inequitable tax treatment of health insurance costs - a corporation deducts 100 percent of its employee health insurance premiums as business expense. The same treatment was not provided to individuals paying the premiums on personal health insurance policies. This unfair tax treatment, which still exists today, fostered the growth of employer based health insurance plans over individual plans. Why? The political influence of the employee benefits industry. The lucrative employee benefits industry was a by product of the tax system. An employee provided the choice between an additional $500 in pay per month (taxable) vs. an additional $500 in benefits (non-taxable)per month would opt for the benefits. The big health insurance companies no longer had to compete in the open market place but only had to sell large employer based policies. Additionally, the large corporations realized that they had an additional means to retain employees as there lacked portability of policies, ie. could not convert their policies to individual policies.
Some relief was provided via Cobra, albeit at exorbitant rates to the consumer.
3) Government promotion of mangled care, er, I mean managed care. Lets face it; managed care is the biggest scam foisted on healthcare in the last 25 years. So, we let who manage the care? Managers from government and industry whose goal it is to come up with short term savings at the expense of the patients. The Nixon Administration under then Secretary of HEW, Joseph Califano. Remember the infamous HMO Act of 1972! That act provided 'seed money' from the government to aid in the formation of HMOs, ie. taxpayers money to screw the taxpayors. That act mandated that employers must offer an HMO to employees when one was available in the area. If one was not available in the area, the taxpayors had the opportunity to foot the bill to start one. Did the taxpayors get to own the HMOs their money created? No. In fact most of the HMOs were consolidated into larger entities by the big health insurance companies. The big insurers were given a gift complements of the taxpayors. HMOs were often immune from legal action when in violation of the standard of care. Gee, we cannot possibly have such valuable institutions sued for malpractice.
HMOs based much of their attractiveness on low or no co-payments or deductibles; remember that all dollars run through the health scam, er, I mean health plan, are tax deductible but not the dollars spent on copayments and deductibles (may be partially deductible).
4) Medicare benefits often based on political considerations and special interests instead of sound science. Except for the most minor procedures on Medicare patients, I generally will perform surgical treatments including minor surgery in a hospital or surgicenter as opposed to the office. Why? Because doctors are disincentivized by financial penalties built into the system to perform office based surgery. Taking the patient to the surgicenter or hospital may treble the bill. It has been that way since 1965 and no one is talking about changing it. Medicare encourages surgical treatments and discourages conservative treatments and preventative medicine. Consider plantar fasciitis -- Medicare covers EPF, injections but not orthotics nor ESWT.
5) The US government has refused to enforce the Sherman Antitrust Law or other antitrust laws for the last two decades. What that means is that many industries including financial services and healthcare have seen massive mergers and consolidation signficantly limiting competition and consumer choice and leading to the creation of corporate entities that are 'too big to fail.' There is little doubt in my mind that these policies are a large cause of the current financial mess. Keep in mind that there are only a few health insurance companies left -- there is no real competition in the market place. A state of monopoly capitalism is not a free market.

So what are the real market solutions:

1) National health reinsurance - this was advocated by Milton Friedman and even mentioned by Barack bin Obama during the election campaign.
This is the real function of government - a safety net, not total control. Health insurers will not take excessive risks when insuring those with chronic disease or the hard to insure as they are provided with a stop loss. Decreased risk also means lower premiums.
2) Tax reform - individual policies need be on a level playing field with corporate policies.
3) Health Savings Accounts - done deal; but growth of these need be encouraged. HSAs are affordable and put the patient in the driver's seat.
4) Competition in the health insurance market place. Enforce the antitrust laws! Yes they ARE laws.
5) Write a standard set of policies as a means for consumers to identify what they are actually buying. This is one thing that the government actually got right with Medicare supplements. Our seniors had no idea what they were buying until the policy benefits became standardized as policy forms A through J. There is choice - 10 levels of benefits from a low in A policies to a high level in J policies but the public knows what it is buying. This system works with a minimum of rules and regulation.
6) Standardized basic rules for claim processing and adjudicating. Hospitals and physicians offices require armies of employees to deal with the health insurance industry's outrageous stall tactics and paperwork. Again, no limits of choices or benefits but there must be a basic code of conduct and standardized rules to ensure that the cost of medical administration need not continue to escalate. Every employee in the back office is one who could better serve the patient in patient care activities.

Dr. Ed

Result number: 17

Message Number 258961

Quick shoe tip for PF sufferers View Thread
Posted by Ben on 7/20/09 at 13:16

Guys, I randomly come back to this site after years away from it to give people some motivation. I went 5-6 years of not exercising at all because of PF. I'd say, these days, I'm 95% cured, after years of hard work. Finished 4 softball seasons and 2 basketball seasons without any problems. My shoe of choice these days are Columbia hiking boots that have the same rubber on the sole as your typical New Balance Shoes. It's got a flexible toe to allow my foot to use it's natural motion. I take the regular insoles out with a screwdriver and replace them with my Orthotic of choice, Aetrex L400 (note...models are geared towards your arch length)...it's a sports type insole with great support in the arch but a good amount of cushioning as well. For those of you who have tried every orthotic, I would recommend you try them out. I still have 3 shoeboxes full of orthotics that didn't work for me. I guess everyone's foot finds it's own orthotic of choice.

Anyways, a lot of us have problems that can be aggravated as our shoes wear down. Personally, I go through a pair of shoes every 6 months and cannot afford to wear broken down shoes for obvious reasons. That being said...I typically have resorted to two things to keep my shoes going strong. The side of the shoe nearest to your arch will break down preventing the orthotic from providing proper support. I like to add some reinforcement to the shoe as this happens by coating it with a little super glue on the inside to add some stiffness to the weakening wall. The other issue I commonly have if the wearing out of the bottom. Most of my shoes are black soled. My solution is to basically purchase a tube of black shoe goo. From the day I get my shoes, I apply a very thin layer of shoe goo along the soles each week to prevent the actual sole from breaking down. I found that I've been able to extend the life of my shoes to about 6 additional months and don't have any asymmetric wearing down at the bottoms of the shoes, which can aggravate PF.

Oh and one more thing...I recommend trying out fish oil supplementation. It acts as a natural anti-inflammatory and I can literally feel a small difference in my joints and feet after exercise when I'm on and off it. I haven't taken an aspirin for non-headache pain in 3 years now.

For those long time sufferers, never give up. I confess to giving up multiple times along the way. You have the power to heal yourself and it takes time.

Result number: 18

Message Number 257828

Re: SEVERE Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome -muscle and nerve damaged View Thread
Posted by Rob on 5/30/09 at 12:39

Severe TTS , I to had the surgery in 2004 and my foot has never regained any of the muscle I had lost prior to the surgery. It had also left me with HAMMERRTOE or CLAWFEET. Five years later and My foot is quite week and bothersome. Ultimately I could not do my job any longer as a UPS delivery driver. UPS would not pay any work comp because its a repetitive injury. I had to sue them. All the doctors who know anything regarding TTS would agree that someone who moves 5-7 thousand pounds of frieght daily could develop such a modality. UPS had extended the suit out as long as possible and just before going before a comp. judge, agreed with my findings and problems reluctently so. I returned to work only to develop it in the other foot, and just kept working until it was to debillitating. I believe perhaps if I had more time to heel my right foot after surgery, then maybe some muscle would return. Now both my feet are basically shot and botheresome daily with UPS not accepting any relation to working and TTS.

Result number: 19

Message Number 256883

Re: How many more college shootings do we need View Thread
Posted by Max K on 4/14/09 at 14:38

'You're saying that because the school counselors arrived armed - this made the students safer?' Yes - a possible mass-casualty shooting was prevented.

'So - what you're saying is that a country like Israel is a safer place for students than say....Canada, New Zealand etc. where you won't find armed teachers (or usually armed students for that matter)? Got any stats to back that up?'

No I don't have any stats. But let me say this: what is safe? What is the safest driver? Is it the driver with a spotless driving record? Or is it perhaps a police officer who has been in numerous crashes and has special training in extreme driving techniques? To fully answer the question about what a safe driver is, you have to indicate what that driver is up against. Otherwise, the safest driver is the one who leaves his car in the garage and takes the subway.

In my view, the safest school is not the one that luckily hasn't been hit yet by a dangerous attacker, but the school that is able to stop such an attacker quickly, should he strike.

Germany has suffered several mass shootings in schools in recent years. This is something new for Germany, which has strict gun laws. If these shootings can happen in Germany, they can happen in New Zealand or Canada. If such an attacker chooses as his target a school that is designated 'gun-free zone', then he is assured of no resistance and a rich harvest, Columbine style, including people slowly bleeding to death for hours, because nobody can reach them.

Result number: 20

Message Number 256561

up, up, up and so goes the stock market...autos and jobs???? View Thread
Posted by marie:) on 4/02/09 at 16:59

Ok we are on the upside of it.stock market is moving and factory orders are up. It won't eual jobs for a few months but.....it's started.

This is a great article on the auto industry.......They're success will be the indicator for the recession end. It discusses the coming car boom with nearly 2 million new drivers in this country alone. Good news..let's hope.

Can Detroit Be Retooled — Before It's Too Late?
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1888986,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
The U.S. population is advancing at a clip of 1% per year. But more important, the baby-boom echo is getting its wheels. Between immigration and the offspring of boomers now asking for the car keys, at least 2 million new drivers are entering the market every year.

Lastly, the auto demand curve is a leading indicator out of a recession. Any GDP growth will correlate directly with auto sales — until growth reaches 4%. At that point, sales growth then turbocharges to about 7%, if the past is any measure. Analysts insist that when you combine the replacement demand, scrappage rates, demographic changes and an economic recovery, there's a case to be made that North American demand will approach 16 million units within five years. 'We haven't seen this kind of positive force in replacement demand for this amount for a while,'

Result number: 21

Message Number 256398

Re: Spending View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 3/26/09 at 16:26

Marie,

Did you see Daniel Hannan's rant against Gordon Brown regarding the UK's attempt to spend their way out? Pretty sacry that we are doing much the same thing. I haven't reconsiled how Bush's running up the deficit needs to be fixed by doing the same thing only several times over. If I'm going to argue against that then what made WWII pull us out of the great depression? I am not a Keynesian but that looks like a successful example to me.

I think it's all about the ratio of value added production vs non-value added administration. As Hannan points out the runaway British spending was not on anything that created wealth. Our (swallow and gulp) plan does have a better mix of value added but I fear it is still far too biased toward non-value added. It's hard to consider making things to destroy other things as value added. I suspect that then the real driver of the recovery was pent up damand that was about to self correct. Not as strong an arguement as I would hope to have!

Rick

Result number: 22

Message Number 256009

Re: I miss Blagojevich View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/17/09 at 13:48

Our state just reduced tax on all food by 1% and the tax on food now is at 1% and expected to be removed altogether this year. We also have a balanced budget every year as that is the law. How can some states do this while others go 40 billion dollars in debt? We also have a large number of Mexican immigrants in our state and they mostly work. We are a poor state but apparently pay our bills on time. No bank in my city that I am aware of accepted any bailout money.

I grew up in Chicago and know the drill. Corruption in government was alive and well when I left and will be hard to get rid of in a one party state run by many crooks. One of my buddies in high school was a driver for the mob. He would pickup gamblers at the train station and deliver them to bars on the north side where in the back rooms every type of gambling you can imagine was taking place. On occasion me and my friend would be invited to go along for the drive and go in these back room places. As high school kids we thought we were in the big time. The police at ever level had to know all these so called bars were big time mob owned places and had to be receiving money which made its way all the way to the top of the city government. Machine politics in Chicago is alive and well.

Result number: 23

Message Number 255852

Re: How will we know when we hit bottom? View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/12/09 at 10:45

Rick in the South when you have a Moon Pie it is always accompanied by a Big Orange preferable 'Nehi' brand.

We are all paying for the unhealthy habits which most all of us have, in one war or another,. Wrong food, overweight, NASCAR drivers, sky divers, living in the wrong part of town, being born poor, drinking booze, smoking, riding a motorcycle, drugs, HIV, traveling to 3rd world nations, living in the current murder capital of the USA. This list is endless. Smoking is the most publicized and likely the most dangerous. So we take the worst of these activities and tax them but give the others a ride. Personally I would like to see smoking disappear from the earth but not booze. Am I a Hippocratic?

I eat junk food, rode a motorcycle from the age of about 16 - 20 with three big wrecks, flew aircraft, drank booze and probably hung out in the wrong places. There must be some way to tax that unhealthy behavior. We tried to get rid of booze with the prohibition but the public would not have that and it must rank #2 as dangerous activities that effect us all. If we slapped a $10 tax per bottle on liquor or perhaps $5 a bottle on beer we would likely have a national uprising and any politician supporting that would be doomed.

It is easy to tax smoking as few people like it and it has such bad results but booze, no way. To many like it. There is something hypocritical about taxing cigarettes and not booze. I guess you take what you can get.

Result number: 24

Message Number 255833

Re: How will we know when we hit bottom? View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/11/09 at 16:22

Rick: Taxes like the cigarette taxes are easy to pass as the only ones that will oppose them are smokers who are not organized. I have never smoked in my life and am very happy to see all the smoke fee buildings, planes, restaurants, etc. It only makes sense as the smoker is intruding on other peoples health. To place what I think is an onerous tax on cigarettes just because it is an easy thing to do is wrong. It is better known as the 'sin tax'. We now tax cigarettes $1.25 per pack which ranks us 25th in the nation. At some point cigarettes will become like booze was during the prohibition. It will start appearing on the black market when it becomes profitable for bad guys to start smuggling in cigarettes. We have a worthy goal of having this tax fund a new trauma system in Arkansas but that is really not the point.

I recall when cigarettes were $.10 per pack. Across the nation the average price per pack is now $3.80.

Cigarette smoking kills tens of thousands of people each year or much more. Should it be prohibited by law completely? If so then so should any type of liquor and other food stuffs which are unhealthy be outlawed? The question becomes just how far do we want our government intruding on what you do that is not good for you health. Yes, cigarette second hand smoke kills thousands of people. So does drunk drivers. So does riding a motor cycle without a helmet. A lot to think about here and not as simple as you might think.

Result number: 25

Message Number 255705

Re: Railroads placed at competitive disadvantage by government View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/07/09 at 16:44

Ed the only way they may have subsidized the trucks was in the beginning when they built the roads. Then everyone was paying either through gas taxes or toll roads. We who are driving cars are being subsidized. Compared with Europe we hardly pay any taxes. Fuel in Europe as you know is twice what it is here or more.

You would be absolutely stunned to see what over the road tractor trailers pay in various taxes. To start with depending on the state your truck is domiciled in it will cost you from $2500 to $4000 for registration each year. In every state you travel in you purchase a seal for your truck that allows you to use the roads in that state. Take a look at a big rig and look at all the fuel seals on the side. You then keep track of every mile traveled in that state. You do this with either a log or they may be doing it electrical on some of the large companies. Each month or it could be quarter each state picks up the miles traveled and your state fuel tax is based on that. You or your company goes through frequent fuel audits as bad as the IRS. When you fuel up in a state you pay your federal fuel tax on the spot. Depending on what you are hauling you may have to buy expensive permits in each state. You have weight stations all over the highways to check your logs, weight, length and height. Each tire on an 18 wheeler cost approximately $300 and that works out to $5400 a set. A busy truck will go through 2 sets a year. Some states have charges for tonnage.

Some states do not even use all these fees they collect from trucks for the highways. Wisconsin once used them for schools but that when I was in the truck leasing business.
A few cents a gallon in taxes on a big rig can make the difference between going broke and making a living. The small independent operators are going to be a thing of the past unless they are real smart. A Walmart knows how to run trucks efficiently to get every last MPG out of a truck and keep them on the road 24/7 where they make money. You can spend $70,000 and up on a new truck real quick. Depending on what kind of trailer you are pulling from $20,000 to $100,000 for specialized trailers.

Insurance on big rigs is unbelievable. You see those lawyers on TV all the time who specialize in suing truck companies. They do that indeed. I do not know what the rates are today but in the 70's and 80's a policy on liability was around $6000 a year. Today it must be higher. Look at all the dangerous products moved by truck. Even nuclear waste. I doubt you could buy insurance for that and it would have to be backed by the government.

Here is my war truck story for the day. I had a fleet of about 100 over the road tractors. One of our mechanics took one of the trucks and picked up a load of diesel fuel. He had a full tanker load. Going up a hill in north Arkansas he missed a gear. He started rolling backwards. The truck jack knifed into about a 20 ravine and the fuel begin to spill out. He jumped out and walked to a store about three miles away and did not even call anyone. I went out looking for him as he was an hour over due and only traveled about 10 miles. I knew his route. I found the truck upside down with the lights still blinking and no driver. Now the bad part. The diesel ran down the ravine into a large pond owned by a farmer. It ran out of the pond into a stream that fed the White River a pristine river known for its fish. I immediately called pollution control and had 80,000 lb. of hay delivered to the area and the farmers pond where fish were already beginning to die. The hay did a good job of containing the fuel in the pond. Only about 3000 gallons of the diesel had leaked out. I turned this over to our corporate lawyers in St Louis and tried to forget it ever happened. I had TV crews chasing me around and a mad farmer. Fortunate for me the Green People had not yet appeared.

Result number: 26

Message Number 255664

Re: Recovery at the end of 2009 View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/06/09 at 11:09

Unlike Europe our nation is not laid out and is to large to support a European style transportation system. In places like the great plains states you can drive for a hundred miles and see nothing. It seems that only on the East coast do modes of rapid transportation make any sense for this nation. Basically everything in this nation moves by truck at one point or the other. We have the largest super highway system in the world which was designed for big trucks and big cars. We are going to be using big trucks using fossil fuel for decades to come as there is no alternative anywhere near. A typical big rig with a full load weights 80,000 lbs. Some states have what is called a Michigan Special which weighs way over 100,000 lb. when loaded. Tucks are our primary mover of goods. I have no idea how many tens of millions of large trucks are on the road but probably more than all of Europe, Japan, and the UK combined. The typical big rig carries around 300 gallons of diesel fuel and gets around 8 mpg. What works in Europe will not work here. It has only been a few months since $4 per gallon fuel and from the looks of things people seem to already have forgotten it. Farmers in this nation depend on pickup trucks as much as they do their wives. In many of the farming states more pickups are sold than cars. Arkansas is one of these states. No matter what happens to Ford and GM they will still make and sell millions of pickup trucks. A farmer needs his pickup and his gun just like he needs water and food.

Car companies have always made or tried to make what sells. And for decades it was the bigger the better. The quality may have been poor but they understood what people wanted. Who would not have wanted a giant caddy with long fins in the day? What killed our big car companies was the increasing price of gas and the cost of labor and a world economy. When other companies were building cars at half our labor cost and fuel cost doubling in a matter of just months the writing has already been written on the wall. We built some small cars in this country at one time and people laughed at them. I recall the Nash Rambler and others. We all wanted big big cars. The car companies gave us what would sell and the Unions took all they could get.

By 2018 the forecast is for trucks to move 70% of all tonnage in the USA. In 2006 trucks consumed 54 billion gallons of diesel fuel. An over the road tractor can easily last through 5 or more engine changes and many years of operation. A typial 350 hp diesel engine can go 300,000 miles prior to a change out. We are going to be in the truck and diesel fuel business for many years to come. A one-cent increase in the cost of diesel annualized over a year cost the trucking industry $391 million dollars a year. A Walmart truck driver starts work at $900 a week, a $1000 signing bonus, full benefits after 4 months and an IRA. There are many husband/wife teams on the road that will meet Obama's standard of being wealthy by making over $250,000 a year. A fork lift driver at GM was making $86,000 a year with almost unlimited benefits. Today when truck driving jobs are announced you will see former Wall Street brokers apply. Only a year ago there was a severe shortage of truck drivers.

UPS has 86,000 trucks. Walmart has 7600 trucks. The U.S. Postal Service has an estimated 260.000 vehicles and is the third largest employer in the USA behind the Department of Defense and Walmart. Is it not amazing that Walmart continues to grow and maKe profits. As the third largest employer in the USA it would seem they are more important to our economy than the auto industry. If Wallmart ever ask for a bailout it is time to move to Mexico. They also, like the auto industry, have a million jobs out side their own business that keeps people working. I noticed yesterday that their stock was again on the move upwards. Like UPS they were started by one man.

Result number: 27

Message Number 254913

Re: This is not Obama's Stimulus Bill View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/08/09 at 19:56

President Obama as did President Clinton promised us the most honest administration in history. Not his exact words but close enough. He is off to very poor start with his appointments. Governor Richardson is in trouble and had to turn down his appointment to a Cabinet post, Our head tax man was found to have failed to pay all his income tax, Tom Daschell may be the most outrageous of all. Failing to pay in excess of $100,000 in taxes for a company furnished limo and driver. Even worse than that, he was influence peddling by working for a Washington law firm for a million dollars and he is not even a lawyer or registered lobbyist. He attempted to appoint a lady to some new powerful position but she to had tax problems. Beware of anyone who promises you the most honest administration ever. President Obama comes out of the Chicago Political Machine on the South side. This is certainly not an area knows for honest politics. The Daily political machine, in Chicago, lives on and may be one the most dishonest political machines the country has ever seen.

Now we have President Obama putting forth a plan that may end up costing ours and future generations a debt that is mind numbing. Over three trillion dollars will likely end up in this gamble. We are doing it with the President trying to scare everyone in the nation that if we do not get all this money in just a couple of weeks that we face fire and brimstone. I should think, as many do, that there should be a number of hearings and we should have all the input we can get from experts and others before we leap off a three trillion dollar cliff. Obama is not an economist and he did not draw up this bill. He passed that off to Nancy Polosi and the House and they loaded down a bill that is supposed to produce jobs with one that produced more pork than the nation has ever seen. Already the American public is turing on this plan in a hurry with most opposing it. President Obama is not off to a good start. Making great feel good speeches in not like governing a nation. I am concerned. Americans are concerned that we have an ill conceived plan.

Result number: 28

Message Number 254718

Taxes Taxes View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/03/09 at 11:00

Do we have anyone left who does not have tax problem? Last year I received notice from the IRS that I had failed to report the cost of a security I sold in 2006 so therefore it would be given a value of zero and the sale would be all gain and I owed $2800. My sale and purchase was through Merrill Lynch and it was on their my year end reporting statement for all the world to see and this is automatically sent to the IRS. I also reported the purchase and sale to the IRS on my Income Tax Statement which was correct. In fact I had a loss. They also said I failed to report a $1.00 gain on something I never heard off. I just sent them $5.00 to cover what ever that might be. In the end they sent me a check for $.32. and agreed they had made a mistake. I doubt I could qualify for a Secretary appontment. But a guy who failed to report a limo and driver as income can likely be a good appointment.

WASHINGTON – Nancy Killefer, who failed for a year and a half to pay employment taxes on household help, withdrew her candidacy to be the first chief performance officer for the federal government on Tuesday.
Killefer was the second major Obama administration nominee to withdraw and the third to have tax problems complicate nominations after President Barack Obama announced he had chosen them.
In a brief letter to Obama, the 55-year-old executive with consulting giant McKinsey & Co. wrote that she had 'come to realize in the current environment that my personal tax issue of D.C. unemployment tax could be used to create exactly the kind of distraction and delay' that must be avoided in responding to urgent economic problems.
She offered no further details of her tax difficulties.

At least the lady admitted she did wrong and withdrew her name. President Obama please have your vetting team get some training. They are killing you.

Result number: 29

Message Number 254682

Tom Daschle View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/02/09 at 12:08

Over the past two years Tom Daschle has made 5.2 million dollars speaking largely to the Health Care Industry among those who sponsored him were America's Health Insurance Plans and the National Associations of Boards of Pharmacies. One of these groups furnished him with the Limo and Driver for which he failed to pay $140,00 and in back taxes and interest dating back several years. He did not file an amended return until he was told he would be an appointee to a Cabinet post. Is there any conflict of interest speaking to an industry that President Obama proposes to change? Why did he wait until he was told he would be nominated to a cabinet post until filing an amended return dating back several years?

There are a lot of excellent men and women without these sort of problems to fill this position. Why walk head long into it by appointing Daschle? One senior Senator yesterday from the Democratic party said Tom Daschle was the most honest man he had ever met. Really Senator? Even after all that is being disclosed? A former Leader of the Senate who makes 5.2 million just for his speeches should be able to afford enough high priced accountants and lawyers to do his taxes correctly. Many people suggest our tax code is overly complicated. Maybe this is a good reason to change it if the former Leader of the Senate who signed the return cannot get it right. We have already had two appointments made with men with tax problems. Three seems a bit much for those of us who do not have a limo and driver or earn 5.2 mil for speaking and then make a $140,000 error on your return. Mr. Daschle should be held to a higher standard that the average American. It seems it will not matter. We are off to one great start for a President who promised us the most honest Presidency in our history.

Result number: 30

Message Number 254679

Re: John and octuplets View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/02/09 at 10:45

Wendy: We agree on my question. As to the other questions I cannot begin to wrap my brain around those. I will leave that the the so called Ethicist I wonder who these people are anyway. Can you learn ethics from a book? Apparently most people who are of certain religions do get much of their ethics from books such as the Bible or Koran. Most people seem to have their own rule of ethics. Can government be a good place to look for ethics. This outfit is driven by votes and not ethics. One man's ethics is another man's devil. I do not like to argue abortion rights as there seems to be no clear answer to me. I leave it to the smart people with 20/20 vision. There seem to be good arguments on both sides. I do not vote for someone because they are for or against abortion rights. That in itself makes me a devil in the eyes of some. This presents some good questions such as can a man and woman who have different views on abortion stay married? I sure did not ask my wife her views on abortions when we married. What if she had said I want an abortion after we were married and she was pregnant? That would make me make a choice. Sure glad I did not have to make that kind of decision. What if the fetus was shown to be a Down Syndrome baby or something worse and we were not very wealthy? Should we go ahead with having a baby? To much here for be to contemplate but people have to face these decisions every day. There are ethical, religious, and practical considerations but for a couple who are from 16-23 they are not very well equipped to make these kind of decisions and the reality that goes with them. They are tugged from all directions.

We now have two men about to become Cabinet member who cheated or forgot to pay their income tax. I do not know how you forget to pay $140,000. in taxes for your driver and limo when you are the Leader of the House. The other guy is the man who will be the driving force about how we pay taxes. Strange indeed. We also have a Governor who would be a Cabinet member who dropped out of his appointment because of ethical problems. President Obama promised the most honest administration in history. He is off to a bad start on this one. He of course depends on his staff to vet these people but he still has the choice of backing out on some of them. This is not setting a good example for the people who do pay their taxes much less do not pay for a driver and limo.

Result number: 31

Message Number 254375

Re: New York Senator View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 1/26/09 at 14:41

It's an interesting turn of events. I don't know much about Hildebrand but it would appear she's a moderate or at least averages out to one. I don't think her early learning curve with the scrutiny of national politics was the issue. I think she's got too much natural strength to run off at the first warm sensation. She may have never wanted it that badly and did like any good job seeker; keep herself in the driver seat until certain she wanted to walk away.

Rick

Result number: 32

Message Number 254152

Re: Oil Prices View Thread
Posted by john h on 1/19/09 at 10:33

Rick: I still find it under $1.50 in Little Rock. In 1964 I was living in Wichita, Kansas. We were having gas wars at that time. You could buy gas from $.18 to $.25 per gallon.

In the early 1970's my company leased large over the road tractor/trailers to large companies. It was the common practice to lease the vehicles with all maintenance and all fuel. At that time diesel was much less expensive than gas. The cost of fuel was not even a major operating cost and the MPG of the big rigs in those days ranged from 3.5 to 4.5 per gallon. Now days owners of large fleets can monitor MPG at home base from their computer. They can also monitor vehicle speed. Each truck has a black box that is reviewed after each trip that lets management know how many stops were made, MPG, average speed, how much fuel was taken aboard, etc. Prior to this new high tech equipment many drivers would disconnect their vehicle governors and could move along at 90 mph and would be lucky to get 3 miles per gallon. They would connect the governor back up prior to returning. Typically todays big rigs carry two 150 gallon tanks for a total of 300 gallons. They can go over 2000 miles on a full tank(s). Some of these companies have over 2000 trucks so you can see what just an increase of 1mpg will do to your bottom line. Drivers typically are paid by the number of miles driven and can make a big amount of money but it is very tough work. These trucks will really wear your body down driving 500 -600 miles a day or over a 1000 miles a day if your are a team. Some husband/wife team can make the big bucks but they earn it and are gone away from home many days a month.

Result number: 33

Message Number 253438

Re: Wyeth Paid Ghost Writers to Author Favorable Medical Journal Articles on its HRT Drugs View Thread
Posted by john h on 12/23/08 at 15:49

Susan: I do not disagree with much of what you write. You appear to lump all Doctors together. They are as different as you and me. Doctors are mere humans like you and me with the same warts and faults we all come with. They are educated in a speciality which requires many many years of difficult training. Some have a Doctor God Complex. They have a much higher suicide rate than the general public. Having said that we are so very fortunate to have access to the best medical care in the world, in my opinion. Yes, they make mistakes just like my fellow pilots make mistakes and as a result we have plane crashes and Doctors who sometimes amputate the wrong leg. Let us not condemn the entire profession of medicine or even pilots because of the few who make a mistake. If you want to see a group that makes mistakes look at our car drivers in this country who routinely make mistakes causing 30-40000 deaths per year. None of us are perfect regardless of your education or status in life. Because one is a Doctor or a pilot they are still prone to mistakes but are also very well trained and less likely to make mistakes than in the general public. I still remember many of my emergency procedures for an engine fire or failure for a DC-6, which I have not flown in over 40 years. Perhaps we expect Doctors to be Gods. They are not, but for the moment the best we have. We are probably over medicated as a nation but without all these discoveries in medications man might not be on this earth. We have eradicated some of the most terrible diseases on the earth. Many in my lifetime. As a teen we all worried about polio every summer as we saw some of our friends die. Not any more. Flying around the world my shot book is filled with shots for things such as Yellow Fever, Typhus, Cholera, etc. There is room for improvement in any job including medicine but I am not going to condemn everyone in a profession.

Result number: 34

Message Number 253142

Re: "Progress" in Iraq View Thread
Posted by Max K on 12/15/08 at 15:12


I meant to say, Saddam Hussein had a record of using WMD. Sort of like: the police pulls you over for a broken taillight and checks your driver's license. What do they find? Numerous felony convictions, including murder? If they find that, they will approach you with great caution, using different procedures than if you have a clean record.

That's what I meant to say: on Saddam Hussein's record it says he is a mass murderer who used WMD. Given that, I feel the question should be narrowed down to: 'is there any way to make sure that the WMD that he previously developed and used are no longer being developed, or used, or hidden away for future use?' And I think the answer was: no, there is no way to determine that, only guesses based on sketchy intelligence. Just like the police has to assume that the person with all the felony convictions is dangerous, we had to assume that Saddam Hussein is dangerous.

'has it ever ocurred to you that who the 'bad people' are depends on which side of the fence you're sitting on?'

No, that did not occur to me.

Result number: 35

Message Number 253107

Re: "dry-needling" and steroid injections View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 12/14/08 at 09:41

No COMMITMENTS??? Sorry, I've already got you signed up, scheduled and ready to go on Tuesday morning at 9 am. It's too late....there's no turning back now!!! When you arrive at Philadelphia International Airport, just look for a limo driver holding up a white sign with the name 'JEN R' and he'll be rushing you directly to my office and then to Jefferson. You'll then be drugged, have the procedure, and sent back home before you even know what happened.................

I think that obtaining a chronological record of your past treatments would be a great idea if you can gather that information for me. I will email you with my office fax number. After I review the information, I'll speak with Dr. Nazarian to determine if you would be a possible candidate for the procedure. If you are, then we'll discuss the details and you'll make a decision based on our email conversations or a phone conversation.

Result number: 36

Message Number 253009

Re: What Do You People Think About the Auto Bailout and Czar? View Thread
Posted by john h on 12/11/08 at 19:29

Marie I was with Avis for around 10 years. I was personally involved every year going to Detroit and buying over 2000 cars a year from the big three. I toured all the plants, drove all the new cars, drove all the test roads with test drivers and was lectured by all the CEO's. I also had to sell most of these cars at auctions, to the public or return some to the manufacturers. I have a very good idea of how the auto industry functions. I was part of it in a big way for a decade. I also had to have a good idea of what the public wanted to rent and what vehicles they liked and did not like and how they wanted them equipped. The later years nearly everyone preferred the Japanese cars. Detroit sold most of the cars to the rental companies at cost or less just to keep the assembly lines going and keeping workers on the payroll. I do not know the total number of rental cars on the road sold by Detroit but a city like Los Angeles had almost 100,000 with Avis. I am going to be interested to see what the rental industry does this coming model year as they cannot afford to buy cars they cannot sell. Detroit can no longer afford to lease them to the rental companies. Today, as I type you have to have a reservation about a week out for a Pirus. This does not bode well for the Detroit cars unless they can guarantee to take the cars back at a guaranteed price which was not uncommon in the good years. The rental cars are going to have a problem also with financing the cars as a bank will surely be reluctant to finance a Detroit car when we are talking millions of cars being made by companies that may not exist a year from now. Next we will want the government to guarantee the resale value of a car to the rental car companies so they can keep buying Detroit cars.

Yes Marie I do know something about the car market and how it operates. The U.S. can operate without the big three and probably will have to other than they can come back in a smaller more efficient fashion if they can get their labor cost down and design cars that people want. Small cars can sell anywhere. Big cars do not fit very well on most roads in Europe where the gas cost 5 times what it cost here. Did we think we could operate without big steel? We are. Did we think we could operate with virtually not electronic manufactures? We do. There is very few people or thing that are indispensable in the final analysis. Government is best suited to running the post office although Fed-EX and UPS could probably do it cheaper. It is most efficient at building and running a military to protect the nation. It never was intended to run private business which this nation was built on. Some of our Senators have never had a real job in their lives and these are the people who are going to set the auto industry on the right course. The Car Czar will likely be a lawyer. Perfect. He can sue them and run them at the same time.

Result number: 37

Message Number 252949

Re: Is this going a bit far???? View Thread
Posted by Jen R on 12/10/08 at 06:00

Here's something I've thought about for the past several years. For whatever reason (I'm sure money probably plays a part) states issue different licenses plates so that people can pick one that they like. Well, I thought the purpose of the license plate is to identify a vehicle. Many of the new license plates have pictures and so much detail to them that you can't even read the number. I've seen plates with two small numbers or letters stacked vertically on the left side and then 3 or 4 characters horizontally. It doesn't make any sense that you can't smile on a drivers license picture but government allows the license to be so cluttered that you can't read it.

I often think about how upset I would be if I got hit by a hit and run driver and couldn't identify a car because of these ridiculous license plates. Is it just me?

Jen R

Result number: 38

Message Number 252939

Is this going a bit far???? View Thread
Posted by marie:) on 12/09/08 at 18:05

Shucks ya can't even smile anymore for your DL pic. Bummer.


No More Smiles on Indiana Driver's Licenses
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,463708,00.htmlBMV officials want driver's license photographs to accurately show people's permanent facial features, Rosebrough said. That means glasses need to be removed. And if a person has hair hanging their face, it should be swept aside. Smiling can distort facial features measured by the software, Rosebrough said, so that is also restricted.

Result number: 39

Message Number 251275

Ohio rules in favor of voters! View Thread
Posted by marie:) on 10/17/08 at 21:59

Every major election the GOP gripe about Acorn and use this organization to supress would be Democratic voters. Personally I wish ACORN would develop better voter registration process and stop paying their hired staff....some 13,000 + people by each registration form. There has to be a better way. That process leads to fraudulant registrations for cash. Acorn is very good at turning in anyone who fraudulantly registers Mickey Mouse. I agree. I think they should be charged and fined and if necessary sent to jail.

To Acorn's credit they divide each of these registrations into 3 categories........definite, probable and impossible registrations. By law they must file each registaration......including the ones in the 'impossible' category. For the most part these registration forms never make it through the process but every election cycle the GOP sends out their lawyers to challenge the legitamacy of all 3 categorized registration forms and in the end people in the definite and probable file are denied their legal right to vote. Where do they do this..........in primarily poor urban areas known to support Democrats. Since 04 many states now have voter PHOTO ID requirements preventing Mickey Mouse from voting. It was at the insistance of the GOP in those states that these photo id laws be put in place to prevent voter fraud........and they're still trying to deny folks the right to vote. LOL. I would like to see the pollster's face when the mouse walks up with their photo id. ;) Unlike some Democrats I fully support the voter photo id law! For the first time a Democratic candidate is ready for them well in advance. I'm impressed.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081017/NEWS15/81017065
In the past, some of ACORN’s workers – who are paid by the hour to register voters – have been convicted of falsifying voter registration cards. ACORN acknowledged that some workers skirt responsibilities by falsifying cards but the organization maintains that it double-checks cards before turning them in. When it finds suspicious ones, it flags them for election officials – though still turns them in – and fires workers caught falsifying cards.

“They’ve done a much better job of weeding out the stuff that shouldn’t be there,” said Lynnette Hagen, a deputy clerk in Saginaw, who said maybe as many as 5% of the 2,500 or so registrations ACORN has turned in there might be bad. They catch the ones that are bad, she said – and while it’s possible that a false one might get through, it’s unlikely someone is going to purposely show up at the polls and try to vote under it, especially when he or she is going to be asked to produce identification.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Today Ohio won. Americans will vote.........unfortunately Acorn is in the midst of death threats, vandalism, hostile emails many containing racial slurs.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/730941.html
On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court overruled an attempt by Republicans to challenge the validity of 200,000 voter registrations in Ohio, saying that the party lacked the standing to sue.

The Republicans had sued to force Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, a Democrat, to provide county election officials with lists of registrants whose personal information did not exactly match Social Security or driver's license data, a step that would leave those voters vulnerable to eligibility challenges.

Result number: 40

Message Number 250528

Re: Palin View Thread
Posted by john h on 9/27/08 at 12:44

The problem Marie is not being forthcoming with the media it is not being able to be questioned by the media. Her record as Governor and Administrator is an open book. We should get some sense of her at the debates. I think most people are going to cast their votes based on the Presidental candidate when they go into the booth. Sarah Paulin is already more famous than Joe Biden among those who are not political junkies. Ask yout local bus driver or coal miner who Joe Biden is. You will likely get a blank stare. Just the fact that a woman is running for VP has elevated Sarah Biden on the front pages of magazines and TV talk shows. This does not mean she is as qualified as Joe Biden but she is not without qualifications. Running a state as a Governor is Executive experience in every sense of the word. Biden has been a politician most of his entire life. He clearly would have more foreign policy experience but no more experience with an economy than Sarah Palin. I am very interested as to how she will hold up under the scrutiny of a national debate.

Result number: 41
Searching file 24

Message Number 249941

Truth or dare? Fact vs Fiction for GOP veep View Thread
Posted by marie:) on 9/08/08 at 10:21

There have been many unsubstantiated rumors on the Internet about Palain......so many that it's difficult to decipher what is real and what isn't so I will attempt to list them all with the hopes some will work at getting to what is real and what isn't. I feel a candidate's children are very much off limits but since they are part of the rumor mill I would like to dispell anything that may be considered untrue and/or gossip.

1.) Bristol is pregnant at 17: 'True'

2.) Trig is really Bristol's baby: 'False'

This article is from her hometown.

http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/07/local_news/doc48bc1fba58ee4308858430.txt
Responding to rampant Internet rumors that Gov. Sarah Palin’s baby, Trig, is actually her daughter’s child, the Palins Monday released a statement debunking that rumor with a revelation that the same daughter, 17-year-old Bristol, is 5 months pregnant.

Commentary: I found this story to be offensive. First off it's a direct attack on a candidate's child with no facts involved. I did hear her daughter was pregnant but stayed away from both of these Internet stories. I think it is good that Bris is keeping her child and that she has support of her parents. Pregnancy is always a choice accept in the case of rape. Abstenance education is part of the ongoing effort to curb teen pregnency but should not be the only alternative taught in schools. 'No' works.

3.) The 'sambo' comment. 'Unsubstantiated'

Commentary: This came from a writer who seems on the surface to have some credit to his name. However, it's a story from a waitress who refuses to be identified. Therefore it should not be part of the debate on Palain until the waitress comes forward. It would be appreciated if Palain would categorically deny it.

4.) Palain had an affair with husband's business partner. 'False'

http://www.usmagazine.com/news/ex-wife-man-rumored-have-had-affair-with-sarah-palin-said-not-true-0
The ex-wife of the man rumored to have had an affair with Republican vice presidential pick Sarah Palin tells Usmagazine.com the hearsay is 'absolutely, completely false.'

'I can tell you this with 1000 percent certainty, Sarah Palin never had an affair,' said Debbie Richter when reached Friday afternoon.

5.) Palain is a member of the Alaska Independent Party which is a secessionist group. Thus anti-American. 'True and False'

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04party.html
Among the new recruits was Todd Palin, whose wife, Sarah, would later become governor of Alaska. The Palins attended the party’s convention in their hometown, Wasilla, in 1994, according to party officials, where the party called for a revote on statehood and a draft constitution for an independent Republic of Alaska. Mr. Palin joined the party.

Ms. Palin remained a Republican and never joined the Alaskan Independence Party, but returned to its convention in 2006 to speak as candidate for governor. After she had been elected, she recorded a video greeting that was played at the party convention this year. “Good luck on a successful and inspiring convention,” she said. “Keep up the good work, and God bless you.”

Commentary: Palain's husband is a member of that party and she spoke at it's convention. So yes it's true that Palain has associated herself with the group to the point that she spoke at their 2006 convention........less then 2 years ago but is not a member, her husband is a member. Guilt by association. I'm certain she was well aware of their anti-American views long before she spoke at their convention.

6.) Palain left her mayoral office 20 million dollars in debt. 'True'

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/06/politics/animal/main4422729.shtml
It's too bad that the city of Wasilla didn't do their homework and secure the land before they began construction,' said Kathy Wells, a longtime activist here. 'She was not your ceremonial mayor; she was in charge of running the city. So it was her job to make sure things were done correctly.' (...)

Last year, the arbitrator ordered the city to pay $836,378 for the 80-acre parcel, far more than the $126,000 Wasilla originally thought it would pay for a piece of land 65 acres larger. The arbitrator also determined that the city owed Mr. Lundgren [the owner] $336,000 in interest. Wasilla's legal bill since the eminent domain action has come to roughly $250,000 so far, according to Mr. Klinkner, the city attorney.

Mr. Lundgren has appealed the decision, arguing that the arbitrator should have awarded him more interest. 'It has been 10 years; it's just insane,' said Mr. Lundgren, who now lives in Panama. 'All [Ms. Palin] had to do was close the transaction.''

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12987.html
Palin, who portrays herself as a fiscal conservative, racked up nearly $20 million in long-term debt as mayor of the tiny town of Wasilla — that amounts to $3,000 per resident. She argues that the debt was needed to fund improvements.

7.) Sarah Palain was responsible for demoting/firing the public safety commissioner for not firing her ex-brother-in-law. 'under investigation'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080906/wl_afp/usvotepalininquiry_080906003326
Palin is being investigated by Alaska's legislature over allegations arising from the sacking of the state's public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, who was fired earlier this year.

The probe was triggered after reports that Monegan was removed because he refused to fire a state trooper who was the governor's ex-brother-in-law, that the Palin family regarded as a 'loose cannon.'

The investigation -- dubbed 'Troopergate' -- followed Monegan's dismissal in July. Palin has consistently denied that she put pressure on Monegan to fire the trooper involved, describing the allegations as 'outrageous' and 'false.'

However it emerged on August 13 that there had been more than 20 calls, emails and other communications from Palin's office to employees at Monegan's Department of Public Safety.

Commentary: If she's guilty it will be determined in court, early in October.

8.) Palain believes Creationism should be taught in public schools. 'True and False'

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=20488
While Sarah Palin has said she believes creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools, as Alaska governor, she has kept a campaign pledge not to push the idea in the schools.

Commentary: She will need to make that pledge at the federal level.

9.) Palain asked the librarian about censoring library books while a mayor. 'True'

http://www.kentucky.com/676/story/514546.html
WASILLA, Alaska --
Back in 1996, when she first became mayor, Sarah Palin asked the city librarian if she would be all right with censoring library books should she be asked to do so.

According to news coverage at the time, the librarian said she would definitely not be all right with it. A few months later, the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, got a letter from Palin telling her she was going to be fired. The censorship issue was not mentioned as a reason for the firing. The letter just said the new mayor felt Emmons didn't fully support her and had to go.

Emmons had been city librarian for seven years and was well liked. After a wave of public support for her, Palin relented and let Emmons keep her job.

Commentary: I have to wonder why any politician would do such a thing. Respect for differing points of view is part of our constitution. McCain claims he will be bi-partisan...........but what will happen if Palain is forced to take over for our nation. Will she listen to decenting opinions or censor them? We have had 8 years of that and look were we are. No thank you.

10.) Oldest son Track joined the army because he was arrested for vandalizing the schools buses in 2005 by cutting the brake lines and wanted to avoid prosecution. The story is that it was 37,000.00 in damages. 'unsubstantiated'

http://frontiersman.com/articles/2005/12/06/news/news2.txt
Deryck Harris, 18, and the other three boys - ages 16, 17 and 17 - were each charged with third-degree criminal mischief, first-degree criminal trespass and conspiracy to commit criminal mischief, troopers said. The 16-year-old was also charged with fourth-degree theft and furnishing alcohol to a minor, for allegedly stealing a bottle of vodka from the liquor store at Tesoro 2-Go in Wasilla.

http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/032003/sta_briefs.shtml
ANCHORAGE - Regular school bus service for Chugiak and Eagle River students resumed Wednesday after mechanics repaired brake lines on 50 school buses that were vandalized sometime before Monday morning.

The buses belong to First Student, the company that provides the Anchorage School District with about two-thirds of its buses and drivers and exclusively transports Eagle River students.

District officials said Tuesday that the estimated cost of repairs and lost revenue for First Student was $36,000.

Commentary: I have found no public records verifying that Track was one of the teens who vandalized the school buses. It is TRUE that it happened but we will have to wait and see on this one. If it's true maybe the military will straighten him out.

11.) Palain has accused the Obama campaign of attacking her family. 'False' NO ONE in Obama campaign has done this.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/palin-accuses-o.html
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin sent out a fundraising solicitation today that charged that 'the Obama/Biden Democrats have been vicious in their attacks directed toward me, my family and John McCain.'

they can't name one person affiliated with the Obama-Biden campaign who attacked the Palin family.

But she made the charge anyway, to help raise money.

Commentary: Obama has asked supporters to lay off Palain's family and so has Biden.



It's up to each and every person to check out hearsay stories.........not only about Palain but also about McCain, Obama and Biden. I firmly believe that what goes around comes around and that's what we are seeing here. It's unfortunate that people have to play this kind of political game but it's sadly become a standard in our political system.

Result number: 42

Message Number 248043

Re: Deaths in Iraq and Comparisons View Thread
Posted by Max K on 6/27/08 at 04:14

'Many of these deaths are preventable.'

Yeah, but what do those bad drivers all have in common? They don't believe that driving is dangerous. This is less an intellectual problem (stupid driver!) and more a problem of human arrogance, and as such cannot be solved. These are the same people who accidentally shoot somebody and then, devastated, say: 'I honestly thought the gun was unloaded'. I think that a certain percentage of humans is destined by design to cause destruction or be themselves destroyed, and I don't know that anything can be done to change that. I expect another half million dead Americans on the road in the next 12 years or so. Maybe advances in vehicle safety can partially offset human shortcomings.

Result number: 43

Message Number 248027

Re: Deaths in Iraq and Comparisons View Thread
Posted by john h on 6/26/08 at 13:52

Deaths caused by murder are not random acts of nature. Deaths caused by auto accidents are not caused by random acts of nature. Many deaths caused by flu are not random acts of nature. All of these are preventable to a certain degree and things such as seat belts, seat belt laws, helmets for motorcycle drivers, speed limits, etc have all served to reduce these deaths. More publicity on TV and in the news papers would serve to further reduce these deaths but we have come to accept murder and auto accidents as you put it 'random acts of nature'.

We in the military are now all 'volunteers'. I was a volunteer during the Korean War and served two tours as a volunteer in Vietnam. I was wounded in combat. As a rescue helicopter pilot I have seen more deaths up close and personal than I want to remember. I have had very close personal friends killed in front of my eyes. As a military volunteer, you know what to expect when you join up and that includes combat, death, and destruction. That is what war is about when you get down to the nitty gritty. You will find that even today our military are volunteering to go back for second and third tours. Largely, they believe in what they are doing and can see the results that our news chooses not to report. It is popular for everyone to say they support the troops and disagree with the war. That is a contradictory statement. Such a statement gives our enemies the will and confidence to fight on as they perceive the public and government will ultimately give up and we will lose the war. It further endangers our troops as a matter of fact. It also hurts their morale. The same thing happened in Vietnam. Jane Fonda supported our troops from a gun nest in Hanoi. Do you have any idea just how much that effected and angered our troops? 'I support our troops but do not support the war' has just become a meaningless slogan. Once again we will Lose a war, not because the troops could not win it, but because the Government and the Public were convinced largely by the media it was not worth fighting. The deaths of the troops is tragically used for political purposes.

The loss of 4100 troops is tragic. So is the annual loss of 41,000 to auto accidents and the 15,000 murders each year. At least we in the military had a choice. We chose to put ourselves in harms way. Our troops died as heroes doing what they chose to do. The auto accident victims and murder victims did not, in most cases, chose to be in harms way. Their families suffer and hurt as much as those who's sons and daughter died in war. Where is the public outrage and media outrage over the deaths of the murder victims or auto accident victims? Yes! these fatalities can be reduced but it is not as newsworthy as a death of a soldier. We just accept these deaths and go on down the road. Their families do not.

I can speak from personal experience just what public opinion and the drum beat of the news does to men and women fighting in a war zone. 'I support the troops' just does not get it when you are trying to win or you are being shot at. If you support me then you should somehow support my mission. I vividly recall being told by my superiors to not wear my uniform in San Francisco when I was there for embarkation to a war zone in Vietnam. What a disgrace. I still proudly fly the American Flag in front of my house and I al;ways will. We are reliving Vietnam all over again in Iraq and Afghanistan only this time we will not lose 56,000 troops.

History has yet to be written about the final outcome of the War On Terror. It appears to me our people have forgotten The War On Terror. It has been politicized to the point we do not know why or who we are fighting and for what purpose.

Result number: 44

Message Number 247544

Re: A note of skepticism View Thread
Posted by SteveG on 6/10/08 at 14:01

Scott ( and John H) - Another interesting post. Truly your world-view is an interesting one. Going through these

1. Semantic Web.

I believe the “semantics” referred to here is still derivative (contingent on minds), but I will delay that discussion.

2 and 3 above both seem to me misguided and don’t reflect the current role of philosophy . Much of the work in cognitive science and AI is driven by work that was originally done by philosophers – including work in semantics, intentional logic, epistemology, etc. Take, for example, two of the people mentioned above (Barwise and Perry). The theory of semantics they developed (situation semantics) has been widely discussed in AI. The following article in AI magazine lists the workshop described below the link

http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/viewFile/1738/1636

A workshop entitled “Barwise and Situation Semantics” was collocated with CONTEXT-03 and chaired by Tim Fernando (Trinity College). The workshop was based on the work of Jon Barwise and John Perry on situation semantics, a semantic framework that analyzes context in terms of situations. It provided a forum to discuss what problems, issues, or insights connected with Barwise’s work motivate
today’s research.1

And the following article describes a computational model based on the semantic theory Perry and Barwise developed

http://dspace.wul.waseda.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2065/11777/1/SEOUL2-67-76.pdf

More generally, much of the driver for work in AI leverages models and theories developed by philosophers. The review listed below makes the following acknowledgement (Searle teaches philosophy at Berkeley) -

How you turn this informal story into a computational system that can take part in conversations is a fascinating, and unsolved, problem. Artificial intelligence and computational linguistics work in this area has very largely been based around attempts to encode Searle's (1969) notion of speech acts in the STRIPS notation for describing actions, and then to use standard AI planning techniques (Fikes and Nilsson 1971; Sacerdoti 1977) to manipulate such actions.

http://www.aclweb.org/anthology-new/J/J91/J91-2007.pdf

5. I was pointing out that the arguments surrounding the operation of the human brain change as they are proven wrong in the same way arguments about the nature of God change

This is an interesting comment. No doubt views about the operation of the brain changes as new data and better imaging becomes available. Aquinas argued many moons ago that God is

• Omniscient
• Omnipotent
• Exists necessarily (i.e., his existence is not contingent on the existence of anything else).
• Is pure actuality (he does not have any potential)

I am curious as to how you think this view has changed “when confronted with new facts”. And what are these facts?

6. I meant logical thinking when compared to animals, not memory. My 6 pound chihuahua has a better memory and pattern-recognition system than i. I often learn what i am about to do by noticing my dog change in behavior as a result of predicting what i am doing next. This proves she is more conscious than i. There are some things she predicts that i haven't figured out clues she's keying on.

Hmmmm. Perhaps “dog psychology” could be a topic for discussion. For my part, I believe my dog is conscious and has beliefs and desires. I don’t think she has a “better” memory than I do because the list of things she can remember is much more limited conceptually. She cannot, for example, remember that it was Truman who fired Macarthur and ended his career. She has, however, a sense of smell that is detailed beyond my comprehension.

8. By your reasoning, you are the only one who has ever been conscious. It seems you really don't want consciousness to ever be in the world of observable science and that you'll change your definition in the face of any argument to make it something observable and therefore worthy of rational discourse. You insist on forcing it into some mubo-jumbo mystical meta-physical world, probably sitting on the right hand of God. Neuroscience can look at individual neurons firing with brain scans. You have never had a thought, feeling, emotion, or taste that has not been seen in monkeys while doing a brain scan. Look into mirror neurons, for example. This is why consciousness is in the realm of science.

Much of our disagreement turn here, I think. My grandmother did not need brain scans to infer that other people were conscious and neither do we. I think other people are conscious because:

• I am (I cannot really be mistaken about that)
• Other people are obviously like me
• Their actions are explained in terms of their beliefs and desires ( why is Jones raising his hand – because he wants the waiter’s attention and he believes that’s a good way to get it)

When you do a scan you aren’t observing Fred’s consciousness. The brain scan can tell you that certain mental states are associated with certain brain states. Although I don’t quite understand why this is thought to be such a big deal or so insightful. As Jerry Fodor stated in a recent article:

“ what if, as it turns out, nobody ever does find a brain region that’s specific to thinking about teapots or to taking a nap? Would that seriously be a reason to doubt that there are such mental states? Or that they are mental states of different kinds? Or that the brain must be somehow essentially involved in both?”

In fact the whole article is worth a look –

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v21/n19/fodo01_.html

But the most interesting part of this discussion has been the hints it provides about the Scott R Theory of Education (SRTE). Let’s say that across the hall from the mornings philosophy class, an English professor is discussing Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises. Is this fellow also a fraudulent leech of the tax payers money? Or is it only the lady that discusses Plato’s dialogues? If someone in the history department is discussing Locke’s role in the Enlightenment. Is your reaction – fire ‘em, who cares what Locke did and what scientific insight could it possibly provide!

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on humanities and what role, if any, they should play in the modern university

Result number: 45

Message Number 247499

Re: Math Problem View Thread
Posted by Dr. Wedemeyer on 6/08/08 at 15:55

This is why Dr. Wander makes the big bucks and gets always gets the girl!

10,990 is the answer (the problem did not mention a bus drivers).

The first time I did the problem I was trying to beat someone else's time and forgot to include the girls feet and got 10,976.

Result number: 46

Message Number 247495

Re: Math Problem View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 6/08/08 at 14:41

Wow,

My answer is WAY off from the rest, but I'll attempt to show my math to explain my answer:

7 girls x 2 legs equals 14 legs.

7 back packs per girl, each having 7 large cats equals 49 large packs PER girl, x 7 girls for a total of 343 large cats.

343 large cats x 4 legs per large cat equals 1372 legs.

There are 7 small cats for EACH large cat, therefore equaling 7 x 343 which equals 2401.

2401 Small cats, x 4 legs per small cat equals 9604 small cat legs.


Therefore you have:

Girls legs----------------------- 14

Large cat legs----(343 x 4) 1372

Small cat legs----(2401 x 4) 9604

Bus drive legs (if there is a driver) 2

Total legs 10,992



Therefore, 'assuming' there is a bus driver, my guess based on my 'logic' and math above would be 10,992 legs.

Since I treat lower extremities for a living, I hope I'm correct!!! I just wish I was treating all those legs and feet, it would sure help pay the bills.

Result number: 47

Message Number 245171

Re: DRX 9000 Lawsuits View Thread
Posted by scott r on 3/27/08 at 16:59

If you're going to post things that can reduce the profit of a company, you need to post your full name and then U.S. mail me a copy of your driver's license, with the social security number and other private non-name informaton hidden so that I can post it as an attachment to your post. And you can't speak for others (heresay), so i deleted that part of your post.

Result number: 48

Message Number 243924

Speed of Light View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/29/08 at 19:36

If you are in a car traveling at the speed of light and you turn on your headlights to an outside observer they will not be on as the light beam cannot outrun the car going at the speed of light. To the driver of the car all will appear normal and he will see the lights.

Is that interesting or what?

Result number: 49

Message Number 242340

Re: Morton's Neuroma Cryosurgery View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 1/24/08 at 08:19

I rarely if ever recommend any of my patients drive home after any surgical procedure, regardless of the foot having surgery, (unless it's a simple nail or skin procedure). I never know how a patient is going to react, and a patient may become dizzy, nauseous, etc., and it's simply not prudent to have a patient come alone and without a driver. Safety, not convenience, should always be the primary concern.

Result number: 50

Message Number 242339

Re: Morton's Neuroma Cryosurgery View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 1/24/08 at 08:18

I rarely if ever recommend any of my patients drive home after any surgical procedure, regardless of the foot having surgery, (unless it's a simple nail or skin procedure). I never know how a patient is going to react, and a patient may become dizzy, nauseous, etc., and it's simply not prudent to have a patient come alone and without a driver. Safety, not convenience, should always be the primary concern.

Result number: 51

Message Number 242338

Re: Morton's Neuroma Cryosurgery View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 1/24/08 at 08:17

I rarely if ever recommend any of my patients drive home after any surgical procedure, regardless of the foot having surgery, (unless it's a simple nail or skin procedure). I never know how a patient is going to react, and a patient may become dizzy, nauseous, etc., and it's simply not prudent to have a patient come alone and without a driver. Safety, not convenience, should always be the primary concern.

Result number: 52

Message Number 241072

Re: Canadian waits View Thread
Posted by john h on 12/19/07 at 18:54

Rick: We sure have lost the connection to our grandparents and community. It was very common in my childhood to have grand parents living with their children or grand children. Elder care was basically unheard of. It was fully expected that children would take care of their aging parents or grandparents. Often both. Children had a collective support of parents, grandparents and even community and several generations from which to draw upon. Americans were not nearly as mobile then and most of your family generally lived not to far from where you lived. My grand parents lived about 30 miles from me. My mother would put me on a bus (age 6) and the bus driver would insure I reached my destination and my grand parents were there to pick me up. On the way back the bus driver would let me off in front of my home rather than the bus station. Ever look in a bus station today? A place to be somewhat scared.

Result number: 53

Message Number 240513

Re: Michael Moore's Sicko View Thread
Posted by Dr. Wedemeyer on 12/09/07 at 21:41

This might interest you Scott. France is ranked #1 by some authorities in medical care delivery. They tend to blend complimentary and alternative medicine (CAM) into their family or specialty practices.

Disorders of the musculosleltal system and soft tissues are one of the big cost drivers in health care because the complaints are so common (low back pain is the #2 cause for admission to a U.S. hospital). The money spent on medications and administering a patient to the hospital I see as wasteful.

Their orthopedists (and many in England) practice osteopathic manipulation for musculoskeletal conditions prior to surgery. The father of modern orthopaedic medicine, Cyriax, also advocated manipulation for a certain subset of complaints over medication and surgery.

Sadly very little of Cyriaxs' or Maignes' work involves the foot and ankle.

I have witnessed some traditional osteopathy first hand and can tell you that much of it is similar to what we call chiropractic here in the U.S. The differences are subtle as chiropractic came into being around the same time although their belief system or philosophy was distinct. Less than 5% of DO's practice traditional osteopathy in the US today.

What is interesting to me is that the French form of Manual Medicine employs a thrust into the joint which is what distinguishes chiropractic from osteopathic medicine.

http://www.sofmmoo.com/english_section/accueil_english_section.htm

This is about Cuba's CAM integration system:

http://www.jabfm.org/cgi/content/full/18/4/297

Result number: 54
Searching file 23

Message Number 239801

Re: Old sandals tell a story View Thread
Posted by Amy J. on 11/24/07 at 11:13

I learned a valuable lesson...Get a second or third opinion!!! When any doctor recommends that you must take a series of expensive tests, or have routine visits just to confirm a diagnosis, one must question his level of training and credibility. Perhaps the doctor is in for the long haul so that he can stretch his wallet as far as possible, or maybe his level of expertise is so limited that his only option is to necessitate a series of tests simply because he just doesn't know how to diagnose or treat your condition with one test alone. Either way, he comes out a winner. I am sure many of you experienced this in some form. There are many legitimate web sites that actually warn patients about this common practice. Please don't take my word for it. Not to get off the subject, but just because two men receive their driver licenses today, doesn't mean that their driving skills are exactly the same. In fact, one driver might have the ability to make much better decisions on the road than the other driver will ever make. The same goes with doctors. In conclusion, just be wary of any doctor that tells you that he cannot diagnose your condition with one simple test. I am not saying he is wrong in some cases, but you as a patient need to quickly look for all the warning signs and options, otherwise you will be taken to the cleaners in a flash, or even worse, your condition might be intentionally misdiagnosed just for their own benefit.

Result number: 55

Message Number 239253

Re: PRONATORY FORCES View Thread
Posted by Louis S. on 11/09/07 at 07:52

Obviously, doctors are missing some key pieces to the puzzle. If more research were done to answer some of your questions, they would have a better idea of how to treat this problem with more exacting results.

On the one hand, you have the potential for building better diagnostic systems where you can analyze the hard and soft tissues - perhaps through a combination of force plate, cast/digitization, video analysis, x-ray, ultra-sound, mri, etc., and model their relationships under movement, giving precise quantification of inter and intra tissue loads with various shoes and orthotics.

Then you have the ability to create better orthotics. Perhaps a thin fluid technology on top of a traditional orthotic would provide more traditional control while allowing dynamic fit under movement. Or an orthotic made of a thousands of vertically aligned micro springs with independent or variable tension (or a material which emulated such) could provide more exacting control through the dynamic range.

However, doctors may be missing a big piece of the puzzle simply because the cause and solution is outside of the scope of their direct control with an orthotic. It may be a case of the old saying where if you have a hammer everything will look like a nail.

It seems that the realm of orthotic / shoe-design has taken over much of the thought of medicine in this regard, but those systems have some intrinsic *assumptions* about what we are trying to achieve. Namely, that we are trying to reduce pain and heal tissues by supporting structures with an ideal cage around the foot. There is much thought on the structure of the foot and how it affects gait, but not so much thought on the diversity of how the user can control those structures theirselves. If we could just provide the proper shoe/orthotic, then the users tissues will be automatically supported without having to worry about what that patient *does*. 'WE' (as physicians) can control the outcome. However, the shoe/orthotic may be more like a car - it's still up to the driver to avoid crashing. And until that is respected, you will still wonder why patients continue to crash even though they were given a perfectly fine car (orthotic).

If, however, we take the assumption that walking barefoot is the gold standard of foot health, and that all remedies should try to achieve that TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE, then other solutions may come to mind. Note my caps emphasize the fact that it may not be possible to achieve the ideal due to many factors including deformity, advanced tissue degeneration, and cost/benefit/convenience factors. In many cases, an orthotic would be the best *compromise*.

I recall reading something about electric stimulation which created hypertrophy in the intrinsic foot muscles which *cured* plantar fasciitis. And by cure, I think they meant that they no longer needed orthotics. What has become of that?

I recall reading about one 3rd-world remedy was to walk on gravel. This could stimulate proprioception and activate muscle strength. I could imagine a treadmill with a textured surface that would simulate this that could bring such an old-age remedy into the modern world.

The more control that an orthotic provides, the less control the patient needs to supply, and this creates a cycle of dependency. The extreme example is to just cut off the foot and replace it with a perfectly working prosthesis. Take the ridiculous to the absurd and you have a human brain in a jar with machines to take care of all the work. We need to refocus on what we can do to get back to health.

Regards,
Louis S.

Result number: 56

Message Number 239041

Re: Steel Toed Boots View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 11/06/07 at 08:31

Bobby:

What is the reason for selection of a cork orthotic? They can be very thick and bulky.

The shank of the shoe need be rigid (eg. steel shank) but not necessarily the entire sole. The sole need be thick enough or constructed in a fashion that it is difficult for sharp objects to penetrate.

The concept of a steel toe is controversial. Most steel toed boots will protect the wearer from relatively small falling objects (eg. screwdriver, wrench) but not from heavier objects. At times a heavy object that falls on the steel toe will crush to steel into the toes exacerbating the injury. That being said, a percentage of boot with 'steel toes' actually have the protective area made out of a high impact plastic.

Dr. Ed

Result number: 57

Message Number 238265

heel spur View Thread
Posted by Allan B on 10/22/07 at 22:00

i have this spur in the back of my heel under or by the achlles tendon, I have had cortisone shots and the pain keeps coming back,the Dr.said I might want to have it removed, if so how long for recovery as iam a truck driver need to get back to full duty.

Result number: 58

Message Number 237739

Bone Spur back of heel View Thread
Posted by Kenny L on 10/14/07 at 17:26

X rays have shown I have a bone spur on the backside of both heels.A shot of cortisone relieves the pain for about 6 mos., but this is not a long term solution.Can the spurs be excised arthroscopically,or treated with ESWT? I've read that usually the heel is opened up but the complete recovery of 1,2 years is not an option, as I'm a long haul truck driver & can't be down for that long a time. I'm 56 years old and in 'OK' shape.

Result number: 59

Message Number 237489

Re: Jena March View Thread
Posted by john h on 10/10/07 at 15:46

How does this mesh with the truck driver that got his head beat in during the Rodney King case. That driver was just driving down the street and because he was white was dragged out of his truck and nearly beat to death with a brick or something over and over while the TV camera in the helicopter filmed him and the assailant stood over him in triumph. Why did not some of the thousands of on lookers come to his aid. No heroes in that crowd or mob. I am not even sure the guy who beat him nearly to death was ever even put on trial. I sure do not recall any of the civil rights people coming to LA to march in defense of him or to prosecute the assailant. Where was Jesse and Al while this was going on. Some people are professional civil rights advocates but only when the civil rights of there on people have been violated. I know little of the Jenna, La case and perhaps this kid was given a heavy sentence. There are legal remedies without marching and causing more civil unrest. Guys like Sharpton and Jackson create more problems than they help. Do either of them have a job? Where do they get there money. I guess Sharpton made a bundle defending Tawana Brawley some years ago when she later admitted she was lying about a group of white men attacking her. If we are ever to move forward in race relations the majority of good African Americans need to speak out against the Sharptons and Jackson.

Result number: 60

Message Number 236436

Re: Why? View Thread
Posted by larrym on 9/20/07 at 22:18

How does Sally Field have any idea how a mother of a soldier feels any more than moe the barber does?

Again, she is an actress that pretneds to be a mother of a soldier. Tom Cruise pretended he was a race car driver and a fighter pilot. Should he advise air force pilots or tell nascar mechanics or drivers what to do

Result number: 61

Message Number 236407

Re: Why? View Thread
Posted by john h on 9/20/07 at 10:17

Marie what on earth is all this talk about a mother's fear. Certainly mothers, wives, fathers,etc fear for their children. Those in dangerous jobs probably more so than others. The most dangerous job in the world in not in Iraq but commercial fisherman. Policemen, coal miners, firefighters all face death every day. What does this have to do with the war. It is a given that family members fear for their children but that does not mean we do not do dangerous jobs. During WWII 250,000 airmen were killed. I would say that flying was sort of a dangerous occupation. People feared for their love ones then as always. What is your point about mothers fear and what does it have to do with war. You do not end or start a war based on a mother's fear. People who do dangerous jobs usually are volunteers for the job. That is what they want to do. I personally do not want to drive a car every week around a race track at 250 mph but a lot of people love it. I am sure the drivers mother has fear but their children have chosen this job.

Result number: 62

Message Number 236320

Anyone got a good joke? View Thread
Posted by marie on 9/18/07 at 18:00

Not much on the tube and I could really use a good joke about now. Anyone????


A Montana Cowboy:


A Montana cowboy was overseeing his herd in a remote mountainous pasture
when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced out of a dust cloud towards him.


The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, Ray Ban
sunglasses and YSL tie, leans out the window and asks the cowboy, 'If I
tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, will
you give me a calf?'



The cowboy looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his
peacefully grazing herd and calmly answers, 'Sure, Why not?'



The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects
it to his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the
Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite navigation system to get an
exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite
That scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.


The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and
exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg, Germany.


Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image
has been processed and the data stored.


He then accesses a MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel
spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes,
receives a response.


Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech,
miniaturized HP LaserJet printer and finally turns to the cowboy and
says, 'You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves.'


'That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves,' says the
cowboy.


He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on amused
as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.


Then the cowboy says to the young man, 'Hey, if I can tell you exactly
what your business is, will you give me back my calf?'


The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, 'Okay, why
not?'


You're a Congressman for the U.S. Government', says the cowboy.


'Wow! That's correct,' says the yuppie, 'but how did you guess that?'


'No guessing required.' answered the cowboy. 'You showed up here even
though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already
knew, to a question I never asked. You tried to show me how much smarter
than me you are; and you don't know a thing about cows...this is a herd
of sheep.


Now give me back my dog.

Result number: 63

Message Number 235591

Re: What makes you laugh? I mean reeeeeeeeeeaally laugh! View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 9/06/07 at 08:41


One of my favorite sources of humor was my late mother, who wasn't dumb, but often spoke without thinking. One of my favorite stories was when I was down at her house and the UPS man came to the door.

He said, 'Lillian Vernon!'

She said, 'No, she doesn't live here.'

Without missing a beat, she said to my Dad who was reading the paper, 'Bill, do you know a Lillian Vernon?'

My father, calmly looked up and said, 'You ordered some things from her, honey.'

At this point, the UPS driver was sure he had met the dumbest woman in the world and we were all in hysterics. Especially my mother, who never minded being the cause of everyone else's laughter.

I have a million stories about her. The time we had several dinner guests and she made a Yorkshire Pudding and it came out of the pan and landed in a sink full of sudsy dishwater. She picked it up, rinsed it off with hot water and patted it dry. Then she put it on the plate and said, 'Non one will ever know the difference.'

And I'm not mean either but lately, every time I look over at my neighbor's yard, I crack up. She had a large load of loam delivered and is attempting a mounded garden. I suspect her back must have acted up and if that's the case, I sympathize. But as it now stands, it's this huge mound of soil with a two plants in the back, some rather sick looking-plants in a pefect row in front and in the middle of it all, a bird bath. I'm sure she meant to put in many more plants. I mean, I hope she did. But every time I look at it, all I can think of is an enormous grave site and I crack up!

Yes, it's sick but it makes my day!

Result number: 64

Message Number 235272

Re: Uninsured View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 8/31/07 at 08:05

John:

Some of those same people who elect not to have health insurance will expect the public to foot the bill if they wind up in an emergency room.
Emergency rooms are not allowed to turn people away based on ability (or willingness) to pay. Obviously, many in that category are fine with sticking it to someone else. As you know, I tend to be a libertarian and don't like government control over the populace. This may be an area where the common good may need to take some precedence as those unwilling to pay for health care are simply demanding money from others.
Drivers must have auto insurance. It does not seem unreasonable to mandate some form of catastrophic coverage for everyone. The conservative economist, Milton Friedman, proposed a national catastrophic policy for all citizens. That is consistent with government providing a safety net as opposed to controlling and or being involved in funding of all aspects of peoples lives. People would simply have to fill in the lessor amounts with private health insurance, HSAs or savings.

Ed

Result number: 65

Message Number 234779

Re: Medical costs - Who pays? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Wedemeyer on 8/22/07 at 19:26

I understand your point of view Kathy, perhaps I should clarify mine. While we may duel with insurers a great deal, they do not set the fees; Medicare does. Who exerts influence over Medicare? the AMA. They own the proprietary CPT codes that all professions who bill insurance must adhere to and their officials sit on the Medicare (NHIC) boards, setting fee values and standards for the medical profession.

If we tried to socialize medicine you would see a dramatic drop not in prescription prices or durable medical equipment costs, hospitalization etc. but in physician fees which are only one factor in the cost driver of health care. My point is the group with the most to lose with socialized medicine or cost containment is the providers themselves and their lobby is second only to the pharmaceutical companies in terms of influence on cost.

Drug prices are a whole other and rather complex conversation. I personally feel that if you do the research and provide an efficacious drug that you should be able to churn a profit off of it. The problem is getting insurers (who spend their existence trying to lower their bottom line)to cover the name brand when medically necessary. Their criteria for medical necessity is based solely on cost containment and not the practice of quality medicine.

Likewise it is odd that a society which places so much value on performance makes every effort to place cost restrictions on the best and brightest through insurance restrictions. The good doctors typically do not accept much HMO insurance, to do so would be financially obtuse.

I did have a check-up once :P

Result number: 66

Message Number 234760

Re: Allergic Reaction? View Thread
Posted by Dr. DSW on 8/22/07 at 13:19

Dr. Z and Dr. W,
Just to clarify a few points. Once again, I DID state that I agree that Cipro would NOT be my first choice and I also stated that blood work SHOULD be performed AND I stated that a Medrol dose pack should NOT be started prior to receiving the results of that blood work.

I do understand that Cipro's coverage is not ideal for empiric coverage for a suspected infection of this type, and I also fully understand that a CBC MAY help determine if there is an infection by following the white blood cell count and the eosinophils may help determine whether there is an allergic reaction. Additionally, tests such as a sed rate and/or C-reactive protein may help identify if there is an infective process or osteomyelitis. I am also fully aware that a Medrol dose pack is contra-indicated in the face of infection in most instances.

But once again, it is always easy to make guesses when the patient isn't in front of us. Infections USUALLY present with heat, redness, swelling, pain and the wound usually presents with drainage and odor. Additionally, when left untreated, the patient will usually start to present with a feeling of fatigue, malaise, fever, chills, etc.

Therefore, in the absence of other constitutional symptoms, a bacterial infection may not be present, or a secondary fungal infection may be present. The entire body must be checked for other lesions or infections to make sure that the reaction in the foot isn't an 'id reaction'. Therefore, there are a LOT of unanswered questions that must be addressed and it is imperative that blood work be performed as a baseline.

Until that time, we're all simply back seat drivers.

Result number: 67

Message Number 234276

Re: Coming Full Circle & Healing Differences View Thread
Posted by marie on 8/11/07 at 21:06

Well first off it shouldn't take 9/11 to unite us. You said..........

'it goes so deep that even an atrocity like 9/11 doesn't touch it, doesn't address it.'

That is very sad. What a blemish on our nation that we cannot first be neighbors, friends, citizens, etc.............In my heart I hope you are wrong. Nothing good ever comes from hatred. Nothing. There will always be extremes on any issue or topic. How we react to that may well be what saves the human race. There is not a conservative here or elsewhere I would not lend a hand to if they were in need.

Some time ago I was the first to arrive on a horrible 1 car accident involving two trees. It was dark and I couldn't figure out which end of the vehicle was the front........it was that smashed up. I smelled gas and knew I had to get the driver out of there before it blew. I found a woman just outside the door. She told me her younf son was with her. So I put her arm around my shoulders and picked up her son under my arm. I carried both of them about 50 yards away from the car and covered them as much as I could with my body should the car blow. Fortunately a couple more vehicles stopped and the drivers had fire extinguishers and they called for an ambulence and police. My first thought wasn't are you one of those wingnut conservatives when I stopped. My first thought was they need help. I was the only one there so I did.

It's a shame if that's what it takes to make us more mindful of our words. And that's all I am looking for in a candidate. Criticize your opponenant all you want but be mindful of what is right, true and hurtful.

Result number: 68

Message Number 234052

Re: Our aging infrastructure........... View Thread
Posted by john h on 8/07/07 at 15:51

At this moment in time Byrd has lost a lot of his thinking power due to age. I think he is in his late 80's and eventually will become another Strom Thurmond. I think there should come a point when no one is allowed to govern based on age alone. What age? No idea but we have age limits for pilots, bus drivers, etc. It seems to me that governing a nation should deserve at least as much. I realize that this may offend some people but the fact is few people are as sharp at 80 or 90 as they were at 50. In the end Strom Thurmond missed more votes than he could attend. From the following Ed it sure looks like Senator Byrd is the real King of Pork:

Words of wisdom from the
King of Pork
Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.)
Ranking Member, U.S. Senate Appropriations Committee

'They call me 'The Pork King,' they don't know how much I enjoy it.' - Sen. Robert Byrd



After he secured $97 million in fiscal 1999, Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W. Va.) became the first person in CAGW's Congressional Pig Book history (since 1991) to help obtain more than $1 billion in pork for his state. In honor of this fiscal incontinence, we dedicate this page to Senator Byrd.

New! Sen. Byrd Pork Tally

Porker of the Month Porker of the Year
June 2006 2002
May 2003
July 2002
February 2001


Projects Named For Senator Byrd





Sen. Byrd has set a new standard for taxpayer-funded narcissism by convincing the West Virginia Legislature to erect a statue of himself in the state Capitol. The statue's completion violates state law prohibiting statues of government officials until they have been dead for half a century.


Byrd's statue is currently housed in the Capitol Rotunda, as shown in the picture, and it is said if you stand under the statue the senator's hand points directly at your pockets.


Sen. Byrd sometimes claims that he is in favor of fiscal restraint. However, the senator currently has more than 30 public works named after him - seriously undermining his pleas for budget responsibility.








The projects include a Robert C. Byrd Locks and Dam (pictured above), Byrd Aerospace Tech. Center, Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope (pictured left), Byrd Industrial Park, and various other projects proving how he really sees government coffers.


Other Byrd Projects

Robert C. Byrd Drive, from Beckley to Sophia (Byrd's hometown)
Robert C. Byrd National Technology Transfer Center at Wheeling Jesuit University
Robert C. Byrd Highway
Robert C. Byrd Federal Correctional Institution
Robert C. Byrd High School
Robert C. Byrd Freeway
Robert C. Byrd Center for Hospitality and Tourism
Robert C. Byrd Science Center

Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center of West Virginia
Robert C. Byrd Cancer Research Center
Robert C. Byrd Technology Center at Alderson-Broaddus College

Robert C. Byrd Hardwood Technologies Center, near Princeton
Robert C. Byrd Bridge between Huntington and Chesapeake, Ohio
Robert C. Byrd addition to the lodge at Oglebay Park, Wheeling
Robert C. Byrd Community Center, Pine Grove
Robert C. Byrd Honors Scholarships
Robert C. Byrd Expressway, U.S. 52 near Weirton
Robert C. Byrd Institute in Charleston
Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing
Robert C. Byrd Visitor Center at Harpers Ferry National Historic Park
Robert C. Byrd Federal Courthouse
Robert C. Byrd Academic and Technology Center
Robert C. Byrd United Technical Center
Robert C. Byrd Federal Building (there are two)
Robert C. Byrd Hilltop Office Complex
Robert C. Byrd Library and Robert C. Byrd Learning Resource Center
Robert C. Byrd Rural Health Center
Robert C. Byrd Clinical Addition to the veteran's hospital in Huntington

Robert C. Byrd Industrial Park, Hardy County

Robert C. Byrd Scholastic Recognition Award

Robert C. Byrd Community Center in the naval station, Sugar Grove
Robert C. Byrd Clinic at the West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
Robert C. Byrd Biotechnology Science Center at Marshall University


'L'etat, c'est Moi': Words from the King

'Having the title [of Appropriations chairman] is fine, but not having the money is sobering.'
Prior to the vote on President Bush's tax cut in 2001, Byrd made one last attempt to blackmail his fellow senators with pork from the well of the Senate: 'Let me say to my colleagues, if you vote for this budget conference report, don't come to the appropriations watering hole. It is not that I would not love to help you, but you are going to make it impossible.' He also sent his colleagues a letter reiterating his threats.
'One man's pork is another man's job. Pork has been good investment in West Virginia. You can look around and see what I've done.' Remarks made March 15, 2001 during Senate floor debate.

'West Virginia has always had four friends,' Byrd said, 'God Almighty, Sears Roebuck, Carter's Liver Pills, and Robert C. Byrd.'
'It is often overlooked that as chairman of the Appropriations Committee, I was instrumental in assisting all of the states in the union with mass transit, highways, waterways, sewerage, education '' he said. 'I worked to serve the national interests. Of course West Virginia, as one of the 50 states, benefited, but few states have needed more help.'
'When I was a member of the West Virginia House of Delegates 51 years ago, West Virginia had four miles of divided highway,'' he said. 'Four miles.'' Today the state has about 37,000 miles of highway.

Given CAGW's long history of chronicling and criticizing Byrd's prolific spending, CAGW was not surprised when he contemptuously referred to the group as 'a bunch of peckerwoods' on National Public Radio in the summer of 2001. Remember, this is the same man who said 'you might as well slap my wife as take away my highway money.' That must be especially true regarding the Robert C. Byrd Highway.
In an interview with George magazine, December/January 2001, about loan guarantees for steel companies, Sen. Byrd claimed that 'he has no apologies to make' to the American people for the more than $1 billion in taxpayer money he has wasted. And said, 'Run me over, that's all right, but tell the good speaker that I'm not dropping anything.'

Result number: 69

Message Number 233784

Re: GOP Vote Caging, Gonzales and Fired Attornies View Thread
Posted by marie on 7/31/07 at 13:53

Oh here we go a dig at Democrats personal lives but we dare not mention Republican adulterers running for 08. Chastising Gov. Corzine in NJ because his driver was speeding. Yet David Vitter gets a pass, Mark Foley gets a pass. Is there a reason for your defense of adultry in your party?

Result number: 70

Message Number 233448

Re: KBR exec pleads guilty......... View Thread
Posted by john h on 7/24/07 at 09:56

I was beginning to think you had forgotten Haliburton Marie. I though it had been dropped from your lexicon. I was wrong again. Do you think when we have a new Democratic President and Democratic controlled Congress that Haliburton will be dropped form all contracts in the Middle East? If we are in the Middle East? I doubt it as there is probably no one company in the world that can do what they do. Among the casualities in Iraq many are workers for Haliburton. They furnish many of the truck drivers and civilian guards. Not so safe a job and who must be highly paid to risk their lives.

Result number: 71

Message Number 233072

Re: Itchy heel problem View Thread
Posted by CFried on 7/16/07 at 16:29

I am going absolutely insane from the itching! I have it only on my left foot. I have had it for a few years on and off, but in the last few weeks, it has increased 10 fold. I have actually bruised the inside of my foot because I was scratching the itch so intensely with a screwdriver! I have found a bit of relief from the icing suggestion, but only for a few minutes at a time.
I just was reading that Wellbutrin can cause this sort of itching. I just started that a few weeks ago.
Is ANYONE else who is experiencing this itching on Wellbutrin??

Result number: 72

Message Number 232046

Re: Think taking kickbacks from pharma is ok? Don't live in China! View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 6/25/07 at 16:20

So you were only the getaway driver during this bank heist ? Susan seriously if the drug doesn't work most doctors are going to dispense the prescription. The value of the practice which is the what allows the doctor to provide for his family isn't worth any free all expenses paid trip to anywhere.

Result number: 73

Message Number 231326

I wonder why we don't carpool more? View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 6/09/07 at 09:04


I'm late to this discussion but when I was Conservation Chairman, our committee set up a carpool for our members so that we could use fewer cars to get to our meetings. Other than me and a few others who had always come together, no one used the suggested pools. I then thought about it and realized had I not been friendly with the people with whom I carpooled, I'd have gone alone. Carpooling is something I would have a very difficult thing getting used to. When I worked, I didn't work the same hours as anyone else but if I had, I would have hated carpooling. I don't know what it is about Americans but the majority of us are very averse to riding with someone else to work.

I know, in my case, I'm a control freak and feel most comfortable if I'm the driver (except if it's my husband or a member of my family driving). And I love my time in the car because the acoustics are great for blasting my music!

And yes, I have never owned an American made car. Well, that's not entirely true, I leased a Geo Prism, a GM/Toyota venture for two horrible years. The car was a lemon from day one and GM thinks the lemon law is just something that's printed to waste paper. Hated the GM dealership and I'll never buy a GM product again.

I need a small car because of a vision problem, and I like the idea of having a car that just needs regular maintenance and is very dependable. I also love the 30+ miles per gallon I've always gotten although that has me stopped. My 1985 Corolla, a standard without air, averaged 30 mpg so why does my 2000 get the same? Of course, I answered that question myself when I said that I have a lead foot and I use the AC all the time, I suppose. It's an average; on long trips I can get 34mpg.

But we have collaborated with Japanese companies and they still surpass us in car making. What doesn't Detroit understand?

Result number: 74

Message Number 231236

Re: Are you ready to make the sacrafice? View Thread
Posted by john h on 6/07/07 at 11:07

Good thoughts Marie but we now have the 'me' generation in cars. Americans can be very generous and are but also are very selfish when it comes to our personal comfort. I doubt a politician could get elected by lowering the speed limit to 55 and forcing SUV drivers into the new hybrids.

Result number: 75

Message Number 230923

Re: The start of the 21st Century will be defined by.......... View Thread
Posted by marie on 6/01/07 at 13:12

The U.N. has been very involved in Africa but it's going to take more then them to make a difference. The UN has given millions in aid but it will take jobs, education and peace to end the war. Many have lost their lives bringing food to those in need. It's so much more complicated then what I ever knew. Can you imagine sending our troops in or even the UN peace keeping troops in to do battle with child soldiers? There are alot of people who want Joeseph Kony hanging from the end of a rope.......and because of that he's not to interested in ending the 20 year war.

http://english.people.com.cn/200705/31/eng20070531_379713.html
According to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) statistics, some 25,000 children have been abducted by the LRA since the late 1980's to serve as porters, fighters, and sex slaves.

The children's call comes at a time when the talks between government and the rebel group enter their final stage in Juba, capital of southern Sudan.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/dd12411c9011fb61d90ecbb67f2df302.htm
LRA has had a bigger impact on aid and policy than the donors. It directly affects three countries, Uganda, Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo. In the past decade, two million people have been displaced, an estimated 20,000 children abducted or killed, and millions of dollars have been spent by the international community to support 'protected' camps in northern Uganda.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2007/2007-05-30-04.asp
Gunmen ambushed a convoy of trucks delivering food for the UN World Food Programme in the Karamoja region of northeastern Uganda on Monday, killing a driver. The world's largest food aid agency says because of the killing it will suspend operations in support of 500,000 drought affected people in the region.

Result number: 76

Message Number 230472

We're not the only ones with high gas prices! View Thread
Posted by marie on 5/24/07 at 17:02

Ok Iran just raised their gas price by 25%. They also have limited refineries and are forced to buy on the open market........Not good news for President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran is the most oil rich nation in the world yet he can't deliver either. Heck i don't mind paying so much for gas if that's what puts him out of office.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_gas_prices
On Sunday, the government had said it would not increase fuel prices 'at the moment.' So drivers were shocked Tuesday morning to find gasoline prices were raised overnight to the equivalent of 38 cents a gallon from 30 cents.

The increase is part of the government's efforts to reduce state subsidies on gasoline and to discourage smugglers who have been buying fuel at Iran's relatively low price and sneaking it out of the country to sell elsewhere.

Result number: 77

Message Number 230337

Re: Social Security hearing next week! Help BrianG or anyone on SSD... View Thread
Posted by Moonie on 5/22/07 at 20:01

I have had those work ups recently. All but the rheumatoid panel. I was just recently put on meds for hypothyroidism. I do need to look into the rheumatoid panel.

Well an update on my situation. I was seen for a follow-up today in regards to my heel bursitis. I saw my docs PA. That really upsets me because when I went 4 weeks ago I was given a different doc altogether and today my doc was there but he sent in his PA. Anyway, she said I had tendonitis of the Achilles tendon. Way different from my first diagnosis. She wanted to cast me but it is my right foot and I did not have a driver. So I go back in tomorrow for casting. One benefit to this is I will have a cast on my foot come court date. That has got to stick in the judges mind.

Result number: 78
Searching file 22

Message Number 229898

Re: Stamps View Thread
Posted by john h on 5/15/07 at 11:04

Even in high school I could get a burger and shake for $.25. In 1963 we had gas wars in Wichita, Ks. It went on for months. It often got as low as $.19 per gallon. I was in the heavy truck leasing business for some years. It was common to include the fuel as part of the Lease. The price of diesel fuel was very stable. I am thinking but not sure but diesel may have been around $.10 a gallon or less in 1973. It was hardly a significant factor in trucking operations whereas now it is the highest factor behind personnel. An 18 wheeler in the 70's typically got around 4.0 - 4.5 miles per gallon. Now with new technology we are nearing 8.0 miles per gallon. Almost double the fuel economy. Most of the large trucking operations have computers on board so management can know exactly how fast the driver has been driving, how often and wehere he stops, MPG, etc. Drivers were very much the problem early on as they liked to drive very fast. With all the trucks on the road just think how many dollars have been saved and how much less polution there is.

Result number: 79

Message Number 228928

Re: Obama Christian, how will the left handle that View Thread
Posted by john h on 5/01/07 at 11:49

Is Bush smarter than Ted Kennedy? Bush graduated from an Ivy League school. Kennedy was thrown out of one for cheating. Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kepechne in that he was driving with an expired drivers license (5 months expired) when he ran off the bridge into the water. He also had 5 speeding tickets and got another one 5 weeks after Mary Jo's death. His wife did not come with him to the part because she was 'pregnant'. The coverup began immediately and Kennedy ended up paying all of $25 for driving with an expired drivers license. The Kepechne family received undisclosed monies from the Kennedy family?
How many people could ever get elected to the Senate with this record? Bush may not be smart but he is sure a lot smarter than Ted Kennedy one of the leaders of the Democratic party.

Result number: 80

Message Number 228579

Re: NBC News 2 hours ago: "Doctors still taking drug company freebies" View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 4/26/07 at 10:42


I didn't read Susan's links because I read a similar article in the Boston Globe this morning. I find it very interesting. My daughter has been temporarily working as a pharamacy tech in a hospital and the drug reps are always bringing them in pizza, meals from nearby restaurants, etc. Makes very little sense in a hospital pharmacy since they dispense only what the doctors write for. Of course, they can influence a pharmacist to order a certain brand of a generic drug if they are so inclined. Most pharmacists I know are too moral to let a free lunch influence them. They order what they believe to be the best drug.

Pharmacy salesmen almost never call on chain pharmacists any more and most of our pharmacies are chains. The chains don't like it although I don't know as any have forbidden it.

As for doctors, one of the fields my daughter was interested in was pharmaceutical sales. The problem? Now that the reps can't give the doctors meals, pens, calendars, etc., the doctors don't see them at all. They sit around for hours waiting to see a nurse to whom they can give their samples and any literature on new drugs. Many reps said it's a very tough field and lots are getting out of it.

As for a friend of mine who's a doctor, he no longer gets any free meals or anything else free from the pharmaceutical companies. If he has the time, he sees the reps because he likes to be informed about new drugs. But I can tell you that I would be amazed if he, or my own PCP, ever has written for a drug based on anything they have received from the drug companies.

And most pharmacists and doctors I know wish they'd stop advertising prescription medication because the ads are so misleading and people are misinformed.

Of course, having said all that, I'm sure there are some doctors who can be bought and will write for the drug whose company has bought him the best meal. Some people can be bought whether they are doctors or truck drivers.

Result number: 81

Message Number 228445

Re: Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by marie on 4/24/07 at 19:47

I know what you mean. It drives me nuts when the speed limit is 70 and I stay within a couple miles either way and people pass me like there is no tomorrow. Whenever I drive in Michigan I am the slow poke at 70 while everyone else is 90 or above. I'm not an aggressive driver so it's overwhelming to me. I think if they just put the speed limit back to 55 people will drive 70......no need to raise it when they are already driving at that speed.

Result number: 82

Message Number 228371

Re: Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by David G. Wedemeyer, DC on 4/23/07 at 17:31

Jersey? Michigan? Try driving the 60 or the 101 in L.A. without being in a large urban assault vehicle like a Suburban. It would make NASCAR drivers sweat!

DW

Result number: 83

Message Number 228355

Re: 2nd Joke of the Day View Thread
Posted by Jillian on 4/23/07 at 14:07

A police officer pulls an old lady over for speeding and has the following exchange:

Officer: May I see your driver's license?

Driver: I don't have one. I had it suspended for speeding.

Officer: May I see the registration for this vehicle?

Driver: It's not my car. I stole it.

Officer: The car is stolen?

Driver: That's right. But come to think of it, I think I saw the registration in the glove box when I was putting my gun in there.

Officer: There's a gun in the glove box?

Driver: Yes sir. That's where I put it after I shot and killed the woman who owns this car and stuffed her in the truck.

Officer: There's a BODY in the TRUCK?!?!?

Driver: Yes, sir.

Hearing this, the officer immediately called his back up. The car was quickly surrounded by police, and the Captain approached the driver to handle the tense situation:

Inspector: can I see your license?

Driver: Sure. Here it is.

It was valid.

Captain: Who's car is this?

Driver: It's mine, officer. Here's the registration papers.

Captain: Could you slowly open your glove box so I can see if there's a gun in it?

Driver: Yes, sir, but there's no gun in it.

Sure enough, there was nothing in the glove box.

Captain: Would you mind opening your truck? I was told you said there's a body in it.

Driver: No problem.

Truck is opened; no body.

Captain: I don't understand it. The officer who stopped you said you told him you didn't have a license, stole the car, had a gun in the glove box, and that there was a dead body in the truck.

Driver: Yeah, I'll bet the lying bastard told you I was speeding, as well.

Result number: 84

Message Number 228180

Re: Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by marie on 4/20/07 at 15:25

'He is paying a price and I bet he will wear his seat belt from now on. If you or I were speeding down the freeway at 91 with the speed limit at 65 you can bet we would we would pay a hefty fine at very least.'

I hope you're not arguing with me because I agree with you. Like I said he will pay a fine just like everyone else. Corzine, however was not driving. The driver is the one who will be in trouble on this. You're correct it's too fast. Are you arguing because he's a Democrat or because I am one???? You asked some questions and I responded with answers. No defense was offered on my part.

Result number: 85

Message Number 228172

Re: Had tts surgery on 4-12-07 View Thread
Posted by kjewell on 4/20/07 at 13:21

It is great to hear how good your recovery is going! I had the same issues with the throbbing after 15/20 minutes and feeling like the foot was going to explode. My stitches in my foot (I also had an incision in my knee) were not disolvable. I had big black stitches at either end and through it, although I could barely see the ones in it until the swelling went down. I am having my right foot done Wednesday...just about 4 weeks after the left (4 weeks and 4 days to be exact). I am on disability now so rather than go back and then take more time off later I elected to have all my surgeries back to back to back (may be needing a third on my saphenous nerve). My doc was actually willing to do the surgery last week but I had no driver so I had to postpone. 4 weeks after the surgery I can walk on my foot for a couple hours with shoes, but take the shoe off when driving. Good luck and remember...only you can decide when the first foot is strong enough to support surgery on the second foot...keep us posted

Result number: 86

Message Number 228168

Re: Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by john h on 4/20/07 at 11:44

Driving at that speed you endanger other peoples lives. There are also laws as to when police, etc can turn on their red lights and exceed the speed limit. Is attending a meeting you are hosting one of them. I doubt it as lives are not at stake. He is paying a price and I bet he will wear his seat belt from now on. If you or I were speeding down the freeway at 91 with the speed limit at 65 you can bet we would we would pay a hefty fine at very least. When Princess Di was killed you can be assured the driver was told by his boss to lose the press and drive as fast as you want. People in power frequently do things the rest of us do not do and and put themselves above the law. As a pilot I 'always' followed the rules without exception and did it for 20 years. My passengers deserved it and other aircraft in the sky expected it. Laws are there for a reason. When he is well he should be held accountable even though he was very seriously injured. Fortunately his driver and passenger had sense enough to have their seat belt on. My boss is one of those guys who refuses to wear a seat-belt in his BMW-740 even though it is the law in Arkansas you wear one. Knowing him for all these years I know it is a power thing with him. No one is going to tell him what to do or not do in his car. His brother was the same way until a few months ago when he totaled his Lexus and received some serious chest injuries in a wreck. He told me he had learned his lesson and will always wear his belt now. My previous boss was 72 years old and owned a Corvette. He drove without a seat-belt and drove that car as fast as traffic would allow. I have been with him many times doing 110-120 on a two lane road going to the race track. I just prayed we arrived their alive. He had so many tickets I lost track but he knew someone who got them out off his record. He died a few years ago. His son of 22 had a 500 HP Dodge Viper that was 2 weeks old. Last year he and his girl friend hit a tree around midnight going over 120-mph. Both were killed instantly. He was not under the influence he just drove like his dad. His brother also drives in the same manner. I drove with this family regularly for years and it was like a mission over North Vietnam. Even on a trip in their custom bus it was a venture. My wife just closed her eyes and told me to shake her when and if we got to were we were going.

Result number: 87

Message Number 228163

Re: Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by marie on 4/20/07 at 10:58

He'll be sited for not wearing his seatbelt just like everyone else. The governor's home is not in the capital which Trenton, NJ, it's in Princeton, NJ. A driver takes him back and forth between the two cities so that he can work while in route. All of the NJ governors have had to do it that way because of the distance between the governor's home and the Capital offices. The New Jersey turnpike is notorious for fast and crazy driving. I think his driver was going 90 mphr. That is probably the norm on that stretch of road but that still doesn't make it right. I hope NJ is paying attention but I highly doubt it will change on the turnpike. I've been on the turnpike 2 times. It was the most frightening road experience I've ever had.

He was on his way to to the governor's mansion for the Imus and Rutgers Girls basketball team meeting. He was to be the host during the meeting but he obviously didn't make it.

Result number: 88

Message Number 228157

Governor of New Jersey-Corzine View Thread
Posted by john h on 4/20/07 at 09:24

As probably most of you know Governor Corzine of N.J. was seriously injured last week in an auto accident and is still on a respirator. He broke 12 ribs, sternum, his leg, and other injuries.

The Governor was in a SUV on a turnpike doing 91mph with red lights flashing. I have not read what his hurry was. His driver was a state trooper. He did not have his seat belt on which is required by N.J. law. The other passengers in the vehicle received only minor injuries and did have their belts on. Governor Corzine was seated in the front passenger seat. I read today that the Governor's driver would receive some sort of punishment but nothing has been said about the Governor. I do wish the Governor a speedy recovery and can only guess how much pain he might be in with 12 broken ribs and the sternum.

Clearly the Governor knew how fast they were going and knew the law requiring seat belts. The driver was likely driving that fast at the Governors request. I usually request any passengers in my car to put on their seat belt if they do not put it on however it is unlikely a Trooper would order his boss the Governor to put his belt on.

What should happen here?

Result number: 89

Message Number 227687

Re: Mac -vs- Windows Pros and cons? View Thread
Posted by john h on 4/13/07 at 11:47

David: Do no forget you can run the windows operating system on a Mac at the same time you are using the Mac operating system. If you like all those extra strokes. I use some of the PC programs such as Microsoft Office. My current desktop apparently will never wear out so if I want the latest toys out there I will just have to sell it on ebay where by the way you can really get top dollar for your Mac. They retain value real well. I have not upgraded to an Intel yet as I wanted to wait until all the software manufactures made their applications Intel compatible. It appears that most are now. Did Vista require a lot of new drivers and updates on their software? Mac's new OS Leopard has been delayed until October as all Apple's resources are being devoted to the new Apple mobile phone which has created a lot of excitement since it was introduced at the trade show in Vegas a few months ago. Apple has been reintroduced back into Best Buy and has its own dedicated section in Comp USA with an Apple Rep usually on hand. I am using a 23' Apple Monitor at home but the way prices have been dropping I may even consider a 30'. Hard to think it has not been that long since my TV was considered big at 27'. Over the years I have bought 3 Mac computers on ebay. Each one turned out to work perfectly and when I sold them I lost no more than 10%. I use a G4 15' Powerbook at the office (wireless) and use a 17' Viewsonic monitor I had laying around. Both my G5 and G4 give me all the speed and power I need for my use. The media people next door really have need for max power and speed and the designers sit like zombies in front of 2-3 screens all day long. Wow, I wold not want their job but since no one else can do what they do in their organization they sure have job security.

Result number: 90

Message Number 227174

Re: i feel good today, strange View Thread
Posted by kjewell on 4/09/07 at 09:38

LOL you sound like me!

Age 4 - Gas leak in house had everyone passed out...in comes grandpa to call 911 and drag us all out

Age 7 - went sledding in a ditch we were told to stay out of (LOL that means head right for it right?) next thing I know my sister is telling me i am bleeding, take off my glove and ring finger is sliced to the bone from nail to joint...i start screaming and running for mommy

Age 10 - another rock fight (what is it with kids and rocks?) brother hits me in the back of the head...i got lucky only 2 stitches (he throws like a girl still LOL)

Age 11 - We get the bright idea of sledding off the garage roof...concussion #1

Age 13 - Jumping out a window into a shopping cart is NOT a good way to have fun LOL - 2 inch scar on my wrist...I always have to explain NO i did not slit my wrist

Age 14 - playing softball and the runner collides with my head bending me backwards...recovery for back injury takes over a year on canes

Age 17 - going to punch my brother and miss...hit brick wall...yes the hand was broken LOL

Age 19 - got in car with drunk driver, he fell asleep, hit black ice, i go through windshield and meet a tree up close and personal leaving a 3 inch scar above my eyebrow (BUT I LIVED!!!) he walks away with scratches

Ages 19 to 29 - various sports injuries to knees, ankles and head

Age 36 - head on collision on the hockey rink with a 200 pound guy (I am a 150 pound woman)...my head acted like a basketball...and concussion #6

Age 36 - head on car accident (passenger) resulting in trapped nerves, numerous back injuries, and the end of my military and hockey

But...I am alive!!! I have cheated death so many times I have begun to believe in a higher being!!

Result number: 91

Message Number 226390

Re: Travolta says dial down for global warming"Hello Marie" View Thread
Posted by jim on 3/31/07 at 14:40

Rules do not apply to liberals!

Senator Bird=Former KKK grandmaster wizard standing behind the Tuskegee airmen, while President Bush awards them The Medal of Honor, Berger=Thief and Traitor, Senator Pelosi=No minimum wage for her Constituents, Hollywood= sex, drugs and anything goes with big greenhouse gasses and too much hot air, Senator Murtha=ABSCAM, Congressman Jefferson= impeached from FED Bench still a congressman with $90,000 cold cash!! Webb= AKA Dirty Harry.....I do like his stance on guns.

Marie will say, 'Oh my God, I guess Republicans never do anything wrong! How about DeLay and the Intern Humper from Florida?'

I will agree, there are too many criminal in politics on both sides, but the difference is, when a Republican gets caught, they lose their job.

Then Marie will say, 'Oh my God, I guess big business doesn't pollute the world with their jets? Gotcha!! You hater!! Bigot!! Fur wearer!! SUV Driver!! Ann Coulter Lover!!

I will agree with her and say that big business does pollute the air when they fly on business trips around the world and their fancy vacations. The difference is they don't walk around preaching to us little people about polluting the environment. I do love Ann Coulter!

How about PETA the animal killers and the ACLU president getting caught with kiddy porn.

Hypocrites are the best!

Result number: 92

Message Number 226152

Arch & Ankle pain after bad car accident View Thread
Posted by Kristy on 3/28/07 at 16:08

I was in a head on collision back in mid November with a drunk driver that was driving the wrong way down my lane. I suffered a large hematoma on the top of my left foot, and several (3 to 4) non-displaced fractures (1, 3, and 4 metatarsils) also in my left foot. I have been through physical therapy and the fractures have healed, but I am still getting pain, sometimes severe, in the arch of that foot. I also get stiffness and poping in that ankle. After i've been sitting or off my foot for 15 to 20 mins it hurts and I find myself limping for the next few mins of walking. It's also been very difficult now to buy shoes because if it's something other than a tennis shoe type material my arch hurts really bad. I also seem to have a mass still sitting on the top of my foot, as well as a few bumps that stick up. My physical therapist suggested it was likely extra tissue or muscle that formed due to the fractures. It is in that area i get most of my pain (besides my arch) especially at the end of the day. What is this and what can I do about it? I already know I have collapsable arches. I was told by my primary doctor just weeks before this accident happened. Can you help me? Should I see someone for orthodics support or would it not do much at all? Am I stuck wearing tennish shoes the rest of my life?

Result number: 93

Message Number 225895

Re: About laptops - any suggestions? View Thread
Posted by john h on 3/24/07 at 18:20

Kathy: personally I never never switch to a new operating system until it has been on the market for 6 or more month. whether it is Apple or a PC you will always have drivers that are not yet compatible or not even available, software that will not work, incomparability with other software, etc. It takes time for the software manufacturers to catch up with the new operating system. Apple is coming with their new system in the spring but I will stay with mine until the bugs are worked out. Actually I want to make sure the new system offers enough improvements for me to switch. My system is working like the atomic time clock so I do not care to mess it up with the latest and the greatest out there.

Result number: 94

Message Number 224626

It's time for big business to pay their fair share View Thread
Posted by Rick R on 3/08/07 at 11:01

http://www.suntimes.com/business/288105,CST-FIN-gross08.article

Rod Blagojevich, the Governor of Illinois:

"We can fund education, health care, our pension system and strengthen our infrastructure by having the biggest corporations in Illinois pay their far share," the governor's text read, "or we can continue to burden the middle class. That is our choice. I side with the middle class."

I had my third Saturday off of the year, so last Saturday my wife and I went off antiquing , which has become our thing since the kids have been venturing from the nest. I can’t remember what it was before the kids. We went to a town not too far down the road that supposedly had a great array of shops. All but one was closed, gone. Well it seems that Cook County decided that they needed to pay their fair share of property taxes.

The Laffer curve in action, an attempt to increase tax revenue by increasing the rate caused a complete loss of revenue from these people. Not to mention the secondary reduced business base. We didn’t stick around to eat lunch in that town, we moved on to the next county where the businesses had relocated.

So now Rod Blagojevich thinks it’s time for big business to pay their fair share. Bunk. Businesses don’t pay taxes, they collect them, it’s in the price of the products and services. To the extent that the business is rendered non-competitive with other businesses not burdened by as high a tax collection role, they leave or go out of business. Simple. (some of us compete with government subsidized foreign competition) Individuals pay taxes as income tax, property tax, sales tax, road tax, profit tax, inheritance tax, license tax, and all of the taxes and fees the bunko politicians have devised. Heck let’s just enact the stamp act. Oh wait, we have that and more.

Mr. Blagojevich is either ignorant in the science of economics, stupid, or a liar. His proposal will redistribute wealth from those that have to those that do not, plain and simple. Those that have a great deal, have greater power to adjust their incomes to retain their relative purchasing power. What do you think has been the driver of the widening income gap? Will CEO’s, MD’s, top tier Lawyers really end up with less of a proportion of wealth, fat chance. It’s the middle class that Mr. Blagojevich claims to side with that will pay for the votes he is purchasing. Initially the cost of moving out of the state will keep many businesses here. Those on the ragged edge of loosing out to China will go first. Businesses considering moving jobs to Illinois won’t. By the time this catches up to us he’ll be long gone.

Every tax increase is an incremental step closer and closer to socialism. If you believe that is the right direction, keep on voting for tax and spend candidates.

Rick

Result number: 95

Message Number 224026

Bus Accident View Thread
Posted by marie on 3/02/07 at 16:51

It's been a bad day for Ohio. We lost 4 young men from Bluffton'sbaseball team and a bus driver and his wife in Ga this morning when the bus went over the overpass. Several members are from the area. Everyone is very upset. We are still waiting for the rest of the names of those injured to be released. We have already had the worst news now those that survived are in our thoughts and prayers tonight.

Not so much politics today just a current event.

Result number: 96

Message Number 223945

"Seems to be genetically encoded into us." View Thread
Posted by Max K on 3/01/07 at 14:27

"Seems to be genetically encoded into us."

I believe that human existence is fundamentally conflicted as a point of departure, not as a result of our actions: sort of like a car that is a wreck rebuild: it might never again drive in a straight line with the steering wheel straight, no matter what the alignment shop tries, and no matter how much the driver tries to steer it straight. All of our efforts at compromises and political solutions are burdened in this way. If you could get the deep conflict out of humans, then you could get the war out. I can't imagine any procedural change, or new policy, or treaty, or anything else on the surface of things, that could reach deep down into the level of fundamental human conflictedness and change things there.

Result number: 97

Message Number 223363

Re: Slick Willie gushing over Hillary..vomit alert View Thread
Posted by Dorothy on 2/22/07 at 14:24

The relationship between Eisenhower's driver, Kay Summersby, and him has never been shown to be anything other than what it was: driver and general. There have been rumors and money-making stories - that appeared long after his death - but no proof and no evidence. All such stories were vehemently denied by Eisenhower's family and close aides and his correspondence to Mamie during those years suggests quite the opposite of those rumors. Anybody can say anything - or hint at anything, suggest anything, create the whole "rumor and innuendo" scenario - but that "don't make it so." People may THINK that this plus that always adds up to another thing, but it is not always so. An attractive woman who is the staff driver for a powerul military leader during wartime, a long time away from home and hearth, does not NECESSARILY and ALWAYS and INEVITABLY add up to adultery. If you believe that, then you absolutely deny the possibility that people can be, and are, faithful to their spouses and partners, no matter what circumstances they may be in. Those stories MAY be true, but we don't know for sure, do we? I think it's unfair of people to make unproven claims about someone AFTER they are dead, and without any corroborating record, that's all -
I felt so sorry for Mamie when those stories were printed long after Ike's death. I was young at the time but felt sorry for her and felt that something wrong was going on...
You know, it IS possible for two human beings marooned on a desert island to maintain their vows to their spouses even in those circumstances. You may think it foolish and unlikely, but there is the fact of integrity and faithfulness and honesty - and self-discipline. Just like Clinton's self-serving claims about "other presidents", to attempt to make us all believe that "everybody does it" - "it" being whatever behavior is being defended - is to lower all human standards to a lower level, rather than remind us all of what human integrity is capable of.

Result number: 98

Message Number 222894

Software frustrations View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 2/17/07 at 22:14

My laptop is old but I partitioned the hard drive placing both Linux (Ubuntu) and Windows XP on it for dual boot. The Windows side has crashed 3 times in the last 1 1/2 years; the Linux side is bulletproof.

I decided to obtain a new HP laptop last week with the vaunted Microsoft Vista operating system. Big mistake. I brought it home and it booted up quickly. Great graphics. It would not work with my Canon printer and scanner. I went online to get new drivers and loaded them. They did not work. I then called HP Tech support but after logging about 2 hours total on hold without being able to get through to a technician I gave up. Internet explorer 6 is tightly integrated into Vista and crashed about 3 days after I obtained the system. I loaded Mozilla Firefox and was able to resume browsing but could not get Microsoft updates as it appears Vista will not utilize it. Next, I went online to download IE 7.
It would not load on the machine with error messages coming up and stating that IE7 is "not compatible" with Vista. Amazing. Why would the latest Microsoft operating system not be compatible with the latest browser?

I called several independent tech support places in town and they confirmed that my experiences with Vista are not unique. A friend recommended that I return the laptop and get a Mac. The salespeople at the store did everything they could to convince me not to return the computer. They told me not to worry because most of the problems would be patched in about 6 months. I told them that I needed a functional computer now, not to mention the fact that I paid for it now. They then informed me of a 15% "restocking" fee in the fine print. They stated that if I really cannot get the computer to work for me they could remove Vista and place Linux on it. I got angry at them informing them that the computer was not capable of performing necessary and expected functions from day one and demanded a full refund which they finally agreed to. I then proceeded directly to the Apple Store where I got a Mac. What a difference in the attitudes between the two store's salespeople. I opened the Mac today, plugged it in and it is working like a charm...
Ed

Result number: 99

Message Number 222396

Re: James Watson (DNA dude) speaks out View Thread
Posted by marie on 2/13/07 at 20:06

That means you should probably be an artist. :) Each side of your brain is in charge of specific functions. Briefly, the Left is in charge of language (written and spoken), mathmatical calculations and time.

The right side of your brain is in charge of vision, emotions and has NO understanding of time or it passing. Have you ever gotten in a car and driven some place but once you get there it seems like time went very fast and you have little recollection of your journey but some how you made it there in one piece and followed all the traffic signs? Driving demands that people function right brain dominant.......even left brainers. That is what it feels like to be right brain dominant all the time. Right brain dominant functioning people tend to be good drivers......and perhaps pilots as well.

Right Brained Dominant people's feelings are much more easily bruised then others and are sometimes the brunt of ridicule. They are much more cued into their emotions.

They are good at sports because it's all about watching what is going on around you.

Right brained people don't do well with mathematics or reading. Numbers and letters are all symbols identified with the left side of your brain. They are often artistic and creative because they can SEE better then lefty's. They draw what they see and not what they think they see. Most crude drawings are left brain attempts to create symbols to communicate visually. Think of how a child might draw a sun with pencil lines radiating from it....it's a symbol much like the letter "a" is a symbol for a sound. The sun does not look like that, my nose doesn't look like an upside down #7 and I don't have big lines sticking out of my eyeballs......I have eyelashes.

Right brained people are often quiet and prefer to observe their environment over participating in it. They make good plant supervisers because they understand through observation how the whole factory must flow to end up with a product made in an efficiant manor.

Result number: 100

Message Number 222339

Of course a DUI is worse than a smoking a little hemp. View Thread
Posted by Tim M. on 2/13/07 at 11:50

Most weed smokers are too paranoid to get behind the wheel if they are really blitzed. Alcoholics think they are not really impaired, and wind up killing an innocent bystander.

You need to start discriminating between something which is really dangerous, such as a drunk driver, and something which is trumped up as being dangerous, such as a pothead. Do you honestly still believe that "Reefer Madness" is a "documentary"?

Larrym, for an obvious right-wing guy who cannot find a good thing to say about a single Democrat, you have a lot of sand accusing someone else of hypocrisy based on their political leanings.

Result number: 101

Message Number 222202

Linda View Thread
Posted by Kelly L on 2/12/07 at 06:44

Hi, I am so sorry I wasn't able to meet with you this weekened. My daughter and her friend were in a bad accident and it has kind of taken all of my time. They were stopped behind a Tahoe on Rt. 6 and were rearended by a drunk driver. She pushed them under the Tahoe. The Tahoe actually saved their lives, if they didn't get pushed under that, they would have been pushed into oncoming traffic. It was the first time in years I think I actually ran. Luckily there were no broken bones or serious injuries but my daughter is in so much pain. Of course this lovely state we live in has wonderful laws to protect the loser drunks so... This is her 3rd DUI, but since she keeps 8 years in between them, it is only considered a 1st offense.

Anyway, I leave for Florida on Thursday but if you would like to get together maybe tomorrow night, I could bring you some of the patches. Just let me know.

Result number: 102

Message Number 222117

Re: Obama View Thread
Posted by john h on 2/10/07 at 19:53

Karl Rove will have nothing to do the 2008 elections. He and Haliburton are about as important to the election as Monica is to Hillary's run for the Presidency. Bringing up Haliburton and Karl Rove is a non starter any more. It has been beaten, kicked, and dragged through the mud until the public no longer listens. More current things in 2008 will be the issuses at that time and we have not a clue what they might be. No matter who is elected you can bet Haliburton will still be doing business with the government because they provide some services no one is big enough or capable of doing. Haliburton reports that they have lost
80 employees killed in Iraq and 2471 injuried. Many of those trucks being blown up are Haliburton employees driving them. Haliburton continues to be bad mouthed and their employees continue to die. Among other things they supply police officers, truck drivers, and translators. Their truck drivers are not even allowed to carry guns. These are regular blue colar American citizens doing some heavy lifting in Iraq and when you constantly bang on Haliburton you are banging on them. They have families and dreams like every one else and they lay it on the line every day and you never see a headline "Three Haliburton employees blown up delivering food or medical supplies". Some of these guys have been captured and had their heads chopped off. We do not even give them the courtesy of we support the Haliburton employees but not the attacks or Haliburton Corporation"? Since Dick Chenney was once the CEO it is largely political in nature. Karl Rove and Halibuton and become just political buzzwords which the average American does not have a clue as to who they are or what they do. Last years contractor deaths were 39% of those killed. Over 100,000 contractors are employeed in jobs that would otherwise have to be done by the military. They deliver mail and serve food, fly helicopter and a host of other services. Last week one of the helicopters that went down had 5 contractors aboard who were killed. I do not recall seeing that in any news paper or on the news. These guys are awarded purple hearts by the military and we are nearing 800 killed. The Labor Department report Translators and interpretors who work for the army suffer the highest casualty rates as they probably are on the same patrols our troops are. Over 700 of these contractor casualties are not even reported as deaths in the offical count of deaths in the war. Haliburton and the other contractors continue to receive a large number of weekly applications for work. Their pay is high as is the risk. Haliburton is accused of over billing and other things. Probably true with them and other contractors in the war. We still have no one who is big enough or has the cabapility to replace Haliburton. We when say Haliburton sucks how about excluding those women and men wo are dying doing dirty jobs our troops would otherwise be doing. Their familes read the papers and suffer the same grief our troops do. Our troops are voulanteers just are all the contractor employees.

Result number: 103

Message Number 221749

Re: Iranian postage stamps commemorate takeover of U.S. Embassy View Thread
Posted by larrym on 2/07/07 at 06:34

Well when you have a government run by religious nuts that rule via the sword I am suprised they dont also have stamps honoring some of the great be-headers and hangmen. We have Elvis stamps and MLK and they should have suicide/homicide bomber trading cards....you kno, do it for the children so Allah willing, instead of getting a drivers license or going to their first school dance they can splatter their guts all over 20 innocent people in a market

Result number: 104

Message Number 220454

Do I have I Planter Fasciitis View Thread
Posted by frank the cab on 1/23/07 at 10:49

I have been a cab driver in London UK for the last 12 years, I drive and automatic, so my rightfoot is doing all the work, my heel is in constant contact with the floor and the ball of my foot is constantly pressing on the accellerator or the brake pedel,thus streaching my foot in an unconvential way this has led to the ball of my foot becoming tender and my heel becoming very painfull. the pain in my heel is a dull nagging pain mainly on the in step side of my heel but some times it may hurt on the other side the pain gets worse when I am relaxing a couple of hours after I stop driving,i have had this pain for approx 4 years. I recently took a break off work for 6 weeks with no driving but this rest has had no effect on the improvement of the pain, it is still the same.

Could this constant pressure on the heel and the ball of my foot cause me to have this planter fasiitis or some other complaint, I would like your opinion.

regards

Frank

Result number: 105

Message Number 220343

Re: Car Ice Skating In Seattle View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 1/22/07 at 09:51

Denise:

The link did not connect to the story. Seattle, despite its northern latitude, has a "maritime" climate. Its weather is considerably warmer and wetter due to the influence of warmer water currents. The Cascade Mountain range confines the warmer weather to the coastal area, Seattle/Puget Sound. The weather on the eastern side of the Cascades is colder and dryer, more consistent with that of the Midwest. Snow and ice is relatively unusual in the area so when it hits, we are relatively unprepared. Municipalities have limited ability to plow, salt or sand roads. Drivers here are unaccustomed to slippery roads.

Driving on snow and ice is never easy but there is a learning curve.

Ed

Result number: 106
Searching file 21

Message Number 219882

Re: Dr. Ed, do you have cabin fever yet? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Ed on 1/16/07 at 07:17

Hi Meg:

I was out and about from the time the bad weather started as I am accustomed to driving one icy and snowy roads. My first work, when I arrived in WA in 1994 involved making regular trips to North Central WA (Omak, Brewster, Chelan) to provide podiatry services at the hopsitals in those communities and had to cross the icy mountina passes through the Cascades 2 to 3 times a month. I got started in practice serving with the National Health Service Corps in mountianous Weat Virginia. The biggest safety hazard, as you pointed out are the drivers on the icy roads who are unaware of how to control their vehicles. Road conditions seem somewhat worse in the south Sound than Seattle. Pierce County has barely done anyting about secondary roads. My wife, Ginni, is a speech pathologist for the Puyallup school system and was off work and my kids at home. I spent a lot of time playing taxi driver over the last few days. Thanks for the info about the possible snow day forgiveness -- I have been in San Antonio since Sunday and have not followed the news.

Roads aside, the recent weather really brings out the beauty of the Northwest. The trees covered with snow make the area look like a winter wonderland. Have a great week! :)

Ed

Result number: 107

Message Number 219203

Anne Wright & The Man In The Truck View Thread
Posted by marie on 1/09/07 at 15:24

Actually yes they were written down and some was recorded. My favorite was the one Saphie wrote after talking to Anne Wright. It's called Anne Wright and The Man In The Truck. I believe Saphie's blog is down now but a copy of her interview is posted at the site below.

http://www.democrats.com/node/5697

Several of us took turns calling down to talk to people in the ditch........it was Saphie's turn and this story is very touching. It's about a man who was a truckdriver. He was on the road when he heard about the protest in Crawford and so he took a little detour. See his son died in Iraq. He's a Republican who thought his son's name may be on a cross on the protest site. He found something that day......that we are all in this together.

"He told her that he did not support what Cindy and the others are doing at Camp Casey, but he wanted to come and see if his son’s name was on one of the crosses. Anne invited him to come walk the crosses with her. The man got out of his truck and went with Anne to move up and down the rows of crosses, looking together for his son’s name. When they found it, they sat down in front of it, wrapped their arms around each other and cried together."

You know who Anne Wright is? Colonel Anne Wright?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ann_Wright

Result number: 108

Message Number 218785

Re: Ethics question View Thread
Posted by Dr. David S. Wander on 1/03/07 at 13:15

Larry, please don't belittle yourself. Apparently you are the "bigger" man and more professional than the "well respected, well known" doctor with the "great reputation". The bottom line is that it appears that one of you is honest and one of you is dishonest and that's the bottom line. Regardless of degree, if he's wrong, he's wrong and I would call him on it and don't let him turn the tables on you.

If he gives you any attitude, I look at it as if YOU are the one in the driver's seat controlling the situation. He should be grateful and apologetic to YOU and the first thing he should do is tell you that he'll attempt to remedy the situation for the patient.

But, his ego probably won't let him do that, and I believe a call to his state society is definitely in order.

Result number: 109

Message Number 218748

Re: Triathlete looking to get agressive with PF View Thread
Posted by Yanni on 1/02/07 at 18:14

Thanks...I will certainly consider all your comments. Personally, I'm a hard driver (I drive myself the hardest), so PF has been a really frustrating situation (I'm sure you've heard it before).

I will update when I see my pod.

Thanks again,

Yanni

Result number: 110

Message Number 218646

Re: Know Them is a RED - Take the colorcode test View Thread
Posted by marie on 1/01/07 at 16:54

I took the test and I'm a Yellow. Maybe that's why Red(know them) and I don't get along. ;) LOL. Red likes "to be in the driver's seat" and yellow is "highly alert to others' agendas to control them". Interesting color test. Thanks.

Result number: 111

Message Number 218036

Re: The best present ever - no more cast!! View Thread
Posted by kconnell on 12/27/06 at 22:16

Meg,
I am so glad you get to wear shoes again, I know how big a step this one is for you. You are an inspiration to us all.

We cross the Columbia river below the McNary dam. It is only about a half an hour drive, thank goodness the fog had lifted by the time we hit the horse heaven hills. I was nervous enough having my daughter driving with her best friend in the car. It seems that conversation takes up an awfully lot of her brain power, I threatened to take back the driving a couple of times. I guess she is not as bad a driver as I thought.
The day at the mall started out a little rocky, my daughter coldn't find a similar coat to exchange for and got a little huffy. I opted to have it credited to the card, at that point I just wanted to let the poor ladies get back to work. As it turned out she scoured the mall with her friend and could not find anything to her liking except a coat at abercrombie and fitch ($100) then they didn't have her size. Thank god I was shopping with my personal shopper. (My son, he must of gotten me every pair of pants in my size at Christoper Banks to try on, and I kept him busy.) I have 2 new pairs of pants and 6 tops to show for it, not bad for $104.00. I love sales. Resolved the coat issue back where we began, with another coat, the removed the credit from the account, and did an exchange, she ended up with a $21 credit on a gift card. I think those sales women at Macys deserve a raise.
One little mishap though, we stopped at McDonalds to eat breakfast on the way out and due to the rain I slipped in the entryway and landed pretty hard on my foot. I hope the increased pain does not indicate any damage. I will get it checked tomorrow or friday.

MEG MEG SHES OUR GAL IF SHE CAN'T DO IT NOONE CAN!!! Congratulations again. kconnell

Result number: 112

Message Number 217129

Gitmo guards abused by prisoners View Thread
Posted by larrym on 12/13/06 at 14:10

Officers say U.S. soldiers ‘abused’ by al Qaeda inmates

In this photo, reviewed by a U.S. Dept of Defense official, one detainee leads a group as they bow during Islamic prayer, at Camp Delta detention center, Guantanamo Bay U.S. Naval Base in Cuba on Dec. 4. (AP Photo/Brennan Llinsley)



Al Qaeda might be on the run in Afghanistan, but Osama bin Laden's agents are in the driver's seat at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.



Officers tell of daily attacks by al Qaeda inmates against U.S. military personnel, who are ordered not to respond. The officers have also been ordered to fulfill the religious, cultural and even entertainment needs of the inmates, including providing Arabic translations of Harry Potter.



"I have never once since I've been down here ever heard of a detainee being abused, but I've seen the soldiers and sailors get abused," Staff Sgt. Thomas Garcia said. "[Detainees] throw some of the most unmentionable cocktails. They urinate on [the guards]. They spit. They call them names."



On Dec. 7, the U.S. military transferred the first group of al Qaeda detainees to a new $37 million 178-cell maximum-security prison designed to prevent attacks on guards. The facility has been reserved for prisoners deemed by the military to be the least compliant.



"As a commander, I don't like my folks being in danger every day," U.S. Navy Cmdr. Kris Winter said.



Guards have been routinely pelted with feces by inmates and face physical attacks from al Qaeda detainees. In May, al Qaeda detainees organized an ambush to stop a search of cells for contraband medication following two suicide attempts. Prison authorities have responded by providing inmates with a huge Arabic library, a modern hospital, sporting facilities and satellite television. Officials said Harry Potter in Arabic was one of the most popular books in Camp Delta.



Sgt. Garcia of the Maryland Army National Guard's 2nd Battalion, 110th Field Artillery, said guards maintain a professional attitude in the face of provocations by al Qaeda inmates. He said the al Qaeda operatives then send messages that they were being tortured. The Pentagon has been allowing guards at Guantanamo to discuss their work in an effort to combat the image of Camp Delta, which has been visited by 1,000 journalists. Officials said independent investigations have not confirmed allegations of misconduct and often Guantanamo has been confused with Camp X-Ray, which was open for four months in 2002.



"There's always the misconception that we're somehow beating these detainees and doing heinous things to them, and that is simply not the case," said Navy Rear Adm. Harry Harris Jr., commander of JTF-GTMO.



Much of the allegations about Guantanamo have been spread by human rights activists. Aryeh Neier, president of the New York-based Open Society Institute and former executive director of Human Rights Watch, termed Guantanamo "one of America's worst violations."



A U.S. sailor and block guard, who could not be identified for security reasons, said prison staff members are ordered to fill a range of dietary requests that seek to adapt to the religion and culture of the inmates.



"If a guy's salad isn't right, I'll make a phone call to try and get him the correct salad," said the 28-year-old guard, who is also a member of a task force.



The block guard recalled being attacked by a "cocktail" of feces, semen, blood and urine thrown by an inmate. He said guards are ordered to walk away.



"It's humiliating," the guard said. "A guy throws feces on you, and you've got to turn right back around and walk down a block that might have 40 people on it. They're making their little comments, and you go home and you change and you come back to work. Take a shower. Go to medical, get your screening."



Officials said al Qaeda inmates have attacked American guards on a daily basis. During the 12-month period that ended in August 2006, authorities reported 3,232 incidents of detainee misconduct. They included 432 assaults with bodily fluids, 227 physical assaults and 99 efforts to incite a disturbance or riot.



"This is serious stuff," Adm. Harris said. "And yet the guard force and the intelligence people maintain a remarkable degree of restraint and equilibrium. The young Americans that work here are doing a spectacular job in a dangerous place."



Officials said most guards are not allowed to handle Korans or other religious and cultural items for the inmates. The Korans, prayer beads and Islamic rugs are stored in a 300-foot long building similar to a small aircraft hangar.



Al Qaeda inmates have been taught to lie about Camp Delta and claim torture. Officials cited a terrorist training manual known as the Manchester Document and seized by British authorities in 2000. The manual directs al Qaeda operatives to make false claims of torture and mistreatment. More than 340 people have been released from Camp Delta.



“They're out there walking around spewing forth all manner of lies and evil things and distortions, but the fact is that they're released," Adm. Harris said.

Result number: 113

Message Number 216118

Re: Ossatron View Thread
Posted by know them on 11/25/06 at 15:38

And just why do you assume that Cryo or RFL or any procedure that is done blind is safe procedure? If you think doing things without seeing what you are doing then you also must be in favor of giving blind people drivers and hunting licenses.

Result number: 114

Message Number 215585

Re: The World Has Not Ended View Thread
Posted by larrym on 11/14/06 at 06:10

McCain and Rudy as his VP and that would spank dopwn any form of Hillary Lite that they can serve up. Hillary is the 3 ton elephant in the room that the left created and propped up. She is like "The Emperors New Clothes" and nobody has the guts to tell her.

If cons are smart they will let her run and get far into it because she has no chance of winning unless the con cand, likely McCain, gets shown raping a woman on video or some other major major, unlikely thing. If the dems get soft on islamofacists like many have begged for, and we get attacked in next two years ANY dem is toast.

It is much easier to bitch and complain about cons and blame Bush for everything, including floods and hurricaines when you are in the drivers seat or the monday morn QB chair. It's a much different thing when you are at the helm and your ideas are implemented, and they dont turn out so well

They will spin and spit shine Hillary and dress her up in construction hat, cowboy hat, wear a cross or a star of david at the right time. She wont fool enough Americans to get the majority of votes. She has more cash and more Machiavellian traits than anyone else. Obama will be told to sit down and shut up as will any others that get in her way

Only hope for dems in 08 is if she listens to her study group people that tell her too many people have a great dislike for her. Remember she had to poll and poll and find that NY was the ONLY place in America that would elect her.

Result number: 115

Message Number 215217

Becoming illegal View Thread
Posted by Gilligan on 11/09/06 at 10:25

Becoming Illegal (From a Maryland resident to his senator)

The Honorable Paul S. Sarbanes
Senate Office Building
309 Hart
Washington DC, 20510

Dear Senator Sarbanes,

As a native Marylander and excellent customer of the Internal Revenue Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine the process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you.

My primary reason for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal alien stem from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for which you voted. If my understanding of this bill's provisions is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, a! ll I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I see one and I am anxious to get the process started before everyone figures it out.

Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine. Is there any way that I can apply to be illegal retroactively? This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid heavy taxes in 2004 and 2005.

Additionally, as an illegal alien I could begin using the local emergency room as my primary health care provider. Once I have stopped paying premiums for medical insurance, my accountant figures I could save almost $10,000 a year.

Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications, as well as "in-state" tuition rates for many colleges throughout the United States for my son.

Lastly, I understand that illegal status would relieve me of the burden of renewing my driver's license and making those burdensome car insurance premiums. This is very important to me given that I still have college age children driving my car.

If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal (retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be most appreciative. Thank you for your assistance.

Your Loyal Constituent,

Pete McGlaughlin

Result number: 116

Message Number 214315

France appeased Muslims, here is the thanks they get View Thread
Posted by larrym on 10/26/06 at 10:01

Youths Torch Buses Around Paris
Oct 26 9:53 AM US/Eastern

By CECILE BRISSON
Associated Press Writer

PARIS






Youths forced passengers off three buses and set them on fire overnight in suburban Paris, raising tensions Thursday ahead of the first anniversary of the riots that engulfed France's rundown, heavily immigrant neighborhoods.
No injuries were reported, but worried bus drivers refused to enter some suburbs after dark, and the prime minister urged a swift, stern response.



The riots in October 2005 raged through housing projects in suburbs nationwide, springing in part from anger over entrenched discrimination against immigrants and their French-born children, many of them Muslims from former French colonies in Africa. Despite an influx of funds and promises, disenchantment still thrives in those communities.

About 10 attackers _ five of them with handguns _ stormed a bus in Montreuil east of Paris early Thursday and forced the passengers off, the RATP transport authority said. They then drove off and set the bus on fire.

Late Wednesday, three attackers forced passengers off another bus in Athis-Mons, south of Paris, and tossed a Molotov cocktail inside, police officials said. The driver managed to put out the fire. Elsewhere, between six and 10 youths herded passengers off a bus in the western suburb of Nanterre late Wednesday and set it alight.

Result number: 117

Message Number 211012

Re: rsd View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 9/23/06 at 07:40

Hi Hope,
Sorry I haven't responded in a bit. My pain returned as usual but I have to say that because we are jumping on it quickly now we are able to keep the inflammation cycle down to a minimum. This is good progress at least for me.

I see my Dr. in two weeks and my P.T. wants me to ask him if he wants her to just continue adding reps to my program or adding weights.
She said in my case she could see reasons to go either way but it was his call.

Even though we'd begin with very low weights I think I should be able to do at least 30 reps of an exercise. After all this time I'm only up to 10-15 on some and 20 on others. When I told you they were progressing me very slowly I meant it and you can see that I still flare even in these low ranges.

I know from conversations with my P.T. that she has treated RSD patients so I asked her what P.T.'s do when they can even touch areas that need treatament. She said each patient is different and as a P.T. you have to find out what they can handle and work in that direction. She said with some of her patients she was able to actually touch the area but needed to find out by working with the patient whether a soft touch was better then a firm one etc.etc.

She also said they would work on desensitization but again everything depended on what the patient could tolerate. They would also work on joints away from the areas of extreme pain but only at the patients comfort level and try to build from there.

I'm glad Mickenzie is home again and hope that she will continue to do well and heal quickly. I think one day that you'll take Gretchen for a walk but for now it may be only with the help of others. If you are up to it do it using your wheelchair and your husband even if he has to hold Gretchens lead. I know that's a big puppy so it may take 3 of you to walk her right now but if you are up to it why not try. It's just a different way to walk a dog at least for right now but you are still outside with family and of course Gretchen.

Years ago I'd be in disbelief of what happend to your son, but today nothing surprises me when it comes to people's attitudes and driving.
There seems to be soooo much anger toward fellow citizens today and so little value placed on human life that injuring others or even killing someone doesn't matter anymore. I'm very sorry that your son had to experience the stupidity of that other driver. You did the right thing. Luckily you were able to get the plate number but more then likely you won't be able to press charges unless you can actually identify the person behind the wheel.

I've had and experience where I had my left turn signal on to make a left turn into my driveway on our residential street and have someone try and pass me on the left just as I started my turn. I guess they couldn't wait the 2 seconds it took for me to enter my driveway. Talk about a sick person.

When they coined the name "road rage" I think they actually provide legitimacy to unacceptable and uncontrolable anger that drivers deem acceptable. People that cannot control their anger shouldn't be behind the wheel of an automobile.

We've devalued human life so much that even getting ahead one car length has more value.

My wife and I have been invited to a friends cottage next month so I have a big decision to make. I know my wife would really enjoy going and the people that we'd be staying with know my situation and have no concerns about it but it's up to me.

Half of me wants to go and the other finds the comforts of home safer. I mentioned it to my doctor at my last visit and he thinks I should take the chance. He says the worse that could happen is that we'd have to come home. Somehow when you've been somewhat homebound for a while there is comfort and safety there and the outside world all of a sudden seems a bit unfamiliar because you are uncertain of yourself.

He indicated that he'd give me extra meds and a letter just in case something happened and I had to go to the ER. I still have a couple of weeks to think about it. I'll let you know if I decide to go so that if I don't post for a few days you'll know why I didn't respond.

I forgot to answer one of your guestions. We don't have any dogs now. My wife got a 16 lb rescue cat from the pound. She's the size of a small dog so for now she is our only pet. We had great plans for travel so we thought and it would be easier to find someone to care for a cat then a dog besides my wife wanted a cat this time.

Wishing you pain free days ahead,
Ralph

Result number: 118

Message Number 211002

They died because they were told things were going well in Iraq. How selfish. View Thread
Posted by marie on 9/22/06 at 19:58

These men died or where injured when they found out the truth. It's one thing to support the purpose of the war but another to misrepresent the conditions in Iraq. Some people have died because of these careless and selfish statements made on the Internet and the media.

Sept. 20, 2005, massacre.

Three KBR truck drivers were killed that day. They are Keven Dagit, 42 (in truck 3), of Jefferson, Iowa; Christopher Lem, 40, (in truck 1) of Lyndon Station, Wisconsin; and Sascha Grenner- Case (in truck 4) of Sierra Vista, Arizona. Wheeler, who lives in Arkansas, was shot and barely survived. Two other drivers, including Terry Steward (in truck 2) of Idaho, were also injured.

Wheeler is the one who took this video. He watched while trapped in his own semi, the truckdriver in front of him killed. KBR truck drivers are not allowed to carry weapons. The language is a bit salty but there is nothing bloody. Just frightening. The film was shot about a year ago. Things are much worse now.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/reports/KBR_ambush.ram

"Iraq Is Not For Sale"
http://iraqforsale.org/
Robert Greenwald's new film, a widow of one of the dead drivers in another convoy massacre in 2004 complained that KBR drivers are not given road maps. Another widow said, "These men went to do the right thing [and] they were totally taken advantage of ... [Halliburton] knew, they knew, that there was more than a good chance that they would be killed." And one of the drivers who survived said, "It's about contracts ... fulfilling the contract and replacing us if we died."

Result number: 119
Searching file 20

Message Number 209882

Re: Information Only View Thread
Posted by know them on 9/10/06 at 13:38

You are all missing the big pucture- Muslims everywhere are the enemy- they are all being taught to hate and kill non-muslims. Every mosque is a school of hatred for anyone who is not a muslim. There will be no peace until the non-muslim world realizes that we are all target of hate for no other reason than that we are not muslims.

Fight back- do not spend any money in any store or at any business that is run by muslims or who employs muslims. We have no idea how much of the mony we spend at a 711 or a gas station run by muslims winds up funding hate for us. Don't hire any muslims and if you have any working for you you are perfectly within your rights to forbid any rligous activity on your premises. If they want to pray theymust do it away from your business and on their own time. Don't tip muslim cab drivers. Band together in your neighborhood and fight the building of any new mosques. Don't give anything to any charity unless you are 100% that they have no ties with muslim scum. They use clever names to hide behind and pretend to be supporting orphans etc.
If you see more than a couple of the scum, especially the younger males moving in together into a house or an apartment nearbye call the police and report that you suspect suspicious activity.

Don't speak to them- don't befriend them- don't let your children play with their childrn. Teach your children that they ar the enemy- they are teaching theirs to hate and kill us.

And above all beware the traitors here in the USA who are not muslim scum but support them.

Beware the MOOOOOINGS of Liberal scum cows

Result number: 120

Message Number 208176

Re: To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Elizabeth on 8/23/06 at 00:01

I had mine done in 2003 and it was $2,000 for one foot. I wouldn't have it done again it someone paid me. I had all kinds of weird symptoms after I had it done. It was just too weird for me. I had less trouble with invasive surgery but I understand that some people have had success with it.

Result number: 121

Message Number 208144

Re: to Scott R View Thread
Posted by KNOW THEM on 8/22/06 at 15:33

Not physicaly in Mamaroneck and never was- threw you off by spoofing my location. Same with AOL- not my ISP.

I told you Scott - I am anonymous- There is nothing in my name. Everything has been changed- SS#, drivers license, birth certificate, everything. Who I was disappeared 15 years ago. Leave it at that- too much said already. You'll find many tracks but they all will lead nowhere.
My mail, phone calls, the rare contacts from my very few friends, all my finacial business and the internet are all done through a filter so my physical location cannot be traced.
Give it up because you don't want to find me, the atual peron who is posting this. You may find somebody you think is "know them" but you do not want those people in your life.

I'll stop harrassing you and the board- you stop looking- it has gotten out of hand and it may become dangerous for both of us. This is the truth.

Result number: 122

Message Number 208130

to Scott R View Thread
Posted by KNOW THEM on 8/22/06 at 12:05

I did not hack your website nor did I call from a blocked phone.

I do enter the board with prxie addresses like now.

REPOST

I do not live anywheer near Mamaroneck NY- I don't even live in NY State. That post came through a proxy server, a library, a hotel, etc like all of my posts. I am not very traceable. I have no address for mail, my only phone is a Tracphone, all my assests are hidden and are handled by my attorney and I access funds through an account not in my name. Everything goes through my attorney and he is the only person on this earth know where I am and how to reach me. I have no permanent address, no vehicle insurance in my name, no vehicle registered in my name. My drivers license address is my attorney office. I use only cash, no checks or credit cards. You could see, with a court order, that cash was taken from an ATM machine but it is not my account. However there are no grounds for getting a court order to pry into my private affairs. I have no debt, all assests are invested in triple tax exempt bonds and Social Security deducts any taxes before the money is deposited for me. You see I exist but I don't exist.

Where would you like my next post to come fom Scott- How about India, Turkey,or maybe even Vietnam. I may not even be in the USA.

LIfe is such fun.

2

Result number: 123

Message Number 208127

to Scott View Thread
Posted by KNOW THEM on 8/22/06 at 11:14

I do not live anywheer near Mamaroneck NY- I don't even live in NY State. That post came through a proxy server, a library, a hotel, etc like all of my posts. I am not very traceable. I have no address for mail, my only phone is a Tracphone, all my assests are hidden and are handled by my attorney and I access funds through an account not in my name. Everything goes through my attorney and he is the only person on this earth know where I am and how to reach me. I have no permanent address, no vehicle insurance in my name, no vehicle registered in my name. My drivers license address is my attorney office. I use only cash, no checks or credit cards. You could see, with a court order, that cash was taken from an ATM machine but it is not my account. However there are no grounds for getting a court order to pry into my private affairs. I have no debt, all assests are invested in triple tax exempt bonds and Social Security deducts any taxes before the money is deposited for me. You see I exist but I don't exist.

Where would you like my next post to come fom Scott- How about India, Turkey,or maybe even Vietnam. I may not even be in the USA.

LIfe is such fun.

Result number: 124

Message Number 208114

Re: To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/22/06 at 06:48

$6000 seems an awful lot if you weren't sedated. Even if done in a surgery center without anesthesia that's a ridiculous price.

Result number: 125

Message Number 208026

Re: To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/21/06 at 07:13

I had the Dornier. I wasn't sedated but did have shots. I think I could have broken the nurses arm that was hanging onto me. The Dr said there would be no pain because of an anelgesic(sp?) effect would happen and there would be no pain. I felt like my toes were going to be blown off. The Dr had done another one before mine and said that the guy had no pain whatsoever. Elizabeth, you're the first person that agreed that it was a horrible experience. I still think that its the answer for alot of people. I would do it again if it weren't for the cost. Was yours as expensive as mine?

Result number: 126

Message Number 207976

Re: To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Elizabeth H. on 8/20/06 at 17:13

I had the Doriner Ultra and it hurt even with my foot numb. Horrible experience !! Bad doctor I suppose.

Result number: 127

Message Number 207973

disappearing posts View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 16:43

this seemed to have vanished so I reposted itRe: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

1

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

3

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

4

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

5

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

6

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

7

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

8

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

9

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

13

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

14

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

15

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

17

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

18

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

20

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

22

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

23

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

24

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

25

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

26

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

27

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

28

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

29

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

30

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

31

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

32

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

33

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

34

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

35

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

36

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

37

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

38

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

39

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

1

Message Number 207908
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

3

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

4

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

5

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

6

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

7

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

8

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

9

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

13

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

14

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

15

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

17

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

18

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

20

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

22

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

23

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

24

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

25

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

26

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

27

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

28

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

29

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

30

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

31

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

32

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

33

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

34

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

35

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

36

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

37

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

38

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

39

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

40

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

Result number: 128

Message Number 207972

disappearing posts View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 16:43

this seemed to have vanished so I reposted itRe: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

1

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

3

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

4

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

5

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

6

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

7

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

8

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

9

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

13

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

14

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

15

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

17

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

18

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

20

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

22

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

23

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

24

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

25

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

26

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

27

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

28

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

29

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

30

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

31

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

32

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

33

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

34

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

35

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

36

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

37

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

38

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

39

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

1

Message Number 207908
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

3

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

4

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

5

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

6

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

7

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

8

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

9

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

13

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

14

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

15

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

17

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

18

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

20

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

22

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

23

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

24

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

25

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

26

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

27

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

28

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

29

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

30

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

31

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

32

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

33

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

34

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

35

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

36

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

37

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

38

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

39

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

40

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

Result number: 129

Message Number 207971

disappearing posts View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 16:42

this seemed to have vanished so I reposted itRe: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

1

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

3

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

4

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

5

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

6

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

7

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

8

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

9

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

13

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

14

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

15

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

17

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

18

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

20

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

22

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

23

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

24

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

25

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

26

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

27

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

28

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

29

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

30

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

31

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

32

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

33

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

34

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

35

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

36

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

37

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

38

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

39

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

1

Message Number 207908
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

3

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

4

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

5

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

6

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

7

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

8

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

9

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

13

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

14

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

15

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

17

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

18

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

20

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

22

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

23

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

24

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

25

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

26

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

27

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

28

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

29

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

30

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

31

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

32

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

33

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

34

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

35

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

36

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

37

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

38

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

39

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

40

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

Result number: 130

Message Number 207935

repost View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 11:46

this seemed to have vanished so I reposted itRe: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:17

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

1

Message Number 207907
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/20/06 at 08:16

I agree- ban Gary H for being an a**hole and attacking a new poster.

2

Message Number 207885
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by footman on 8/19/06 at 21:20

I agree that Gary H is a first class as*hole for being nasty to eswt tech. I think that scott should kick his stupid insulting butt out of here. Maybe eswt tech has something good to add. Dr Z- I'll ask you the same ? as know them- did you ever meet "eswt tech" in 2004 as he said you did?

3

Message Number 207877
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/19/06 at 19:58

Who the f*** is this Gary H as*hole dumping on somebody who is afraid to get involved because of posters like him? Gary- I hope you have the worst incurable painful case of PF anybody ever experienced. I hope the pain is so bad it drives you to jump off a bridge into a cesspool.

Hey Dr Z- do you know who posted as "eswt tech"?

4

Message Number 207794
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/19/06 at 07:32

Dr Z will know who I am. Dr Z we met in A/C in 2004 at the region 3 convetion at the Taj Mahal. I visited you at your booth, you came to the booth my company had and we also had a very nice conversation in the hospitality suite that the region 3 group set up. Thses people are absolutely the meanest people I have ever run into. I wonder if foot pain makes you mean.

5

Message Number 207673
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

6

Message Number 207671
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/18/06 at 08:24

I'd replace the word "putz" in your post with "guy" and eliminate the word "jerk". Name calling isn't necessary to get a point across.

7

Message Number 207631
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Gary H. on 8/17/06 at 20:09

Doctor Z,

I DO NOT believe that putz is an ESWT tech. I think he is full of himself. We will talk about that jerk at lunch next time. Let me read the board for 3 more years first.

8

Message Number 207624
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

9

Message Number 207623
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:42

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

10

Message Number 207622
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

11

Message Number 207621
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Z on 8/17/06 at 17:41

I would love to have your experience on this board. If I took your view I would have left a long time ago. Come on help out. Its fun and very rewarding to both patient and your ESWT Tech.
Here is a question I have Do you use the dornier and it so what is position you place the foot. Is the patient on their side or on the tummy ?

12

Message Number 207620
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 17:07

Judy,
You've got to laugh at that post. It tore me up. The guy refuses to post and correct information he calls "ignorance and misinformation"

Now tells us we will be penalized and deprived forever because he's leaving the board.

Maybe had he posted sooner and told us what he had learned in his "previous scientific profession" we would have known the guy was around in the first place. He admits he had 4 years to do it.

I don't know about you but sad as I may be I'll carry one somehow one day at a time. I know you'll get by too. We've got to hang in there.

Like they say "when the going gets tough the tough get going" I'm going to dinner.

13

Message Number 207618
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by judy on 8/17/06 at 16:17

what is with the threats?

14

Message Number 207617
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:57

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

15

Message Number 207616
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/17/06 at 15:56

This is the last post that I will put here. Ralph, you are one of the reasons I won't post anything. It is the venimous posts and the personal attacks that have conviced me not to get involved. It is a shame that I must do this and thus deprive this board of all I have learned in my previous scientific profession and what I have learned performing over 2500 ESWT procedures in the past 4 years.

16

Message Number 207588
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/17/06 at 10:48

If you found this site so appalling you had two choices.
1. Leave the site and stop viewing it.
2. Post constructive information to correct what you call "ignorance and misinformation I constantly see".

You've done neither. So I guess who you know or what you know or who you met doesn't matter.

You get credit for recognizing the infighting. At times it does remind me of a wolf den.

17

Message Number 207548
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

18

Message Number 207547
Re: correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 21:40

So what information do you have to offer.? Why post now ? I am not even involved with this thread. Come on get involved . Contribute. Three years of not posting. ?????????????? Answer some questions. Help out ! A professional is someone who offers and doesn't stand on the side lines.

19

Message Number 207544
correction Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:23

I have been reading this board for 3 years and have never posted until now. I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I would never expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

20

Message Number 207542
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by eswt tech on 8/16/06 at 21:01

I have been reading this board, and have never posted until now, for 3 years and I am appaled at the ignorance and misinformation I constantly see. Because I am a professional I have would expose myself to this infighting by posting information or getting involved in a discussion.
I have met you Dr.Z and I am very suprised at the situations you allow yourself to get involved in.

21

Message Number 207532
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 18:58

I think we'll be seeing many more of these machines used in these settings. The real question is will they help the athletes.

I wonder what they do with athletes training in Colorado hoping to make the Olympic teams if they get P.F. It would be interesting to see if they have an ESWT machine at that training facility.

22

Message Number 207517
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 17:41

thanks for long explenation. I didn't get any anesthesia so it was a lower power machine. I had one week between each session. it was a private clinic with ordinary general practice doctors but with extra knowledge of athlete injuries so I call it sport clinic. Athletes from the cities elite soccer team and track/field goes there.
In the end, ESWT didn't do anything for me so I'm glad I didn't pay too much. ART looks to do more help for me now.

23

Message Number 207514
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 17:17

I'll try not to be as rude as you "know them", but I was looking at the bill from the Surgery Center and Dr. The Dr. is also a part owner. I know that they paid quite a bit of the bill but I can't tell you the exact amount because it was a long time ago. I was cleaning out my old bills when I found it the other day. The point was that it was billed for that amount, period!

24

Message Number 207507
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 8/16/06 at 16:15

Good point,
What was the amount the doctor received.? It is possible that they did receive $6,000. I know that some certified mobile providers have received more then that amount for three low energy ESWT procedure. I guess that is why UHC is gone. Would you know anything about that Know them?

25

Message Number 207462
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/16/06 at 11:36

The difference in cost is most often related to the location where the ESWT under FDA guideline must be performed.

The Osstron ESWT machine must be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or Hospital.

The Dornier Machine can be used in Mobile Trailers or in doctors offices.

Each of these machines suggest that one treatment does the trick however, a second treatment may be necessary. The treatments are not give in a daily or weekly series they are spread apart.

From what you described the ESWT treatment you received was with a machine that provides 3 treatments closely together. These machines are often considered lower power machines hence 3 treatments are needed to equal one of the others. Please realize that when I use the word equal its in very "general terms" and not "scientific" meaning that if compared the amount of shock wave ability may not be truely "equal" but for my reply I'm just using the term equal as described above. You'd have to compare several things to determine the true equality of these machines.

The type of machine you had obviously wasn't required by the FDA to be used in an Outpatient Surgical Center or hospital and possibly it might have been even used off label meaning that the machine itself isn't FDA approved specifically for treating P.F. "Specifically" is the important word here. It can be used off label.

It is well known that these type of machines cost less to purchase and the treatments also cost less. I believe in Canada these machines have become very popular and possibly are becoming more popular in the U.S. because of lower cost treatments.

Right now you must remember that the prices of getting an ESWT treatment is in the hands of the doctors because there is very little insurance coverage. They can raise or lower prices as they see fit but feel that the cost of the machine, up keep, over head and their services etc are worth more than the $300 you paid.

This is expecially true with the Ossatron machine that must be used in a hospital or Outpatient surgical Center with an anesthesiologist and anesthesia. Add those costs to the doctors fee and even without paying the doctor a dime you are already well over $300.

In your case the machine used, the fact that it was done in a sports clinic and the decision of the doctor to charge only $300 made the difference in what you paid.

26

Message Number 207452
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by LV on 8/16/06 at 10:05

I went to a sports clinic, used by elite athletes, and the ESWT treatment was not covered by anything for me so I paid 300$ for three sessions. Experienced doctor did the procedure. don't understand the 1000$ per session thing.

27

Message Number 207447
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 09:46

You did not pay anything near that amount, nor did the doctor or equipment provider collect anywhere near that amount. Do you have any idea what a Dornier EPOS costs? Do you have any idea what it costs to keep a mobile unit in the field? A vehicle, techs salary and benefits, insurance,fuel, maintainance on the EPOS and the vehicle, depreciation, back office and support staff expense. depericiation, debt service on any business loans, - I could go on for 10 more lines. The total cost to campaign a mobile ESWT operation running 5 days a week is probably around $200,000.

You looked at the EOB you received for the amount billed and decided to make a big splash here quoting that $ amount. Now look at that same EOB and tell us, truthfully if you can, what the insurance company actually paid the provider and the doctor. I'de be suprised if it came to more that 30% of what was billed.

Are you one of those socialist who feel that free enterprise should listen to your rules as to how profitable they should be? Well if you are then you must accept that I can tell you how much you should earn.

28

Message Number 207441
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/16/06 at 08:51

Bill, I had ESWT with the Donier Machine. It was around $6,000. My insurance paid for most of it. It didn't work for me but I really believe that it does for some. I'd definately do it before Surgery, which I did, and am sooooo sorry I did the surgery.

29

Message Number 207431
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by know them on 8/16/06 at 06:21

Pick the right provider and if your doctor is not the typically greedy practioner you will find that ESWT can be suprisingly affordable despite the current trend of non-coverage by the insurance bandits.

30

Message Number 207413
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 21:23

Just make certain that you are not left with a huge co-pay that your insurance co. forgot to tell you about or the doctor didn't mention.

Let us know how you do following treatment. We are waiting to hear more positive results. I hope you are one of them

31

Message Number 207405
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:31

Ralph,

Thanks for the follow-ups! I have been quoted a price waaaay higher than these. BUT, it looks like my insurance may pay for the treatment (and I doubt their reimbursement is anywhere near the quoted price). So, I plan to go ahead and trust/hope that whatever the insurance company works out with the provider will be socially fair and efficient!

32

Message Number 207404
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 20:27

Scottr,

First, this is classic PF: 'first step' pain really bad and tender to modest pressure at the insertion of the PF to the heel on the inner part of the heel. Worsening for about 9 months; ibuprofen, icing, stretching, use of night splint when watching TV, etc.

The fiest two times I did the halogen I did not have sun glasses, so averted my eyes and was using the red food coloring in the water. I have done about 6 more treatments now using sunglasses. I will now switch to using non-colored water (my understanding from my sampling of your prior posts is that the red coloring makes for less heat at skin surface (which has not been a problem}, but I had not understod that clear light was more powerful).

Just prior to the first halogen treatment my 'first step' pain was off the charts and lasted for a couple of blocks. However, this was elvated somewhat because I had recently had to be on my feet a good deal. Some combination of the halogen and natural recovery from the elevated level brought my pain down consistently for a few days. However, I continue to experience some re-tearing while walking (I wonder if my orthotics need adjusting, although I am not sure which way the adjustment should go. BTW I was 10 years and untold orthotics on my other foot before doing the surgery and typically have a god sense of how to adjust orthotics. As mentioned in a different post, the surgery helped the PF but led to foot instability and occasional cuboid problems.)

Also, the 'runner's stretch' seems to irritate (re-tear) sometimes even though I am careful with the mechanics-my calf is not real tight; but the PF sure is.

I have seen some definite benefits from the halogen, and will continue to apply, and now with 'clear' light. However, I am a teacher and with classes starting soon I wanted to be pro-active regarding the ESWR-especially if my insurance will pay some. With 10 years of PF on my other foot-and going from atheletic to overweight and untoned- I want to do everything possible to resolve this foot much earlier!

Thanks so much for your research and site; I will keep you posted on both the halogen and ESWT.

For now,
Bill

33

Message Number 207386
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by scott r on 8/15/06 at 18:00

Bill, was the halogen you're using a flood or a spot? Is it to bright to look at your skin where it shines if you don't use the red coloring? I'm wanting to investigate every failed instance of using the halogen to see if i need to modify my instructions. Can you tell us more about your symptoms (pain location, when it occurs), history, and possible initial causes?

34

Message Number 207382
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 17:08

Bill,
Here is a post I found from last year. Don't know if fees have been raised or not but this gives you a good idea of possible medicare value assignments.

Posted by Steve W on 11/08/05 at 13:01
I just received the relative values assigned to ESWT by Medicare. This is second hand but a reliable source. Medicare has apparently assigned the following values:

ESWT performed in a facility:
Professional Fee - $210.
Facility/Technical Fee - $1,000

ESWT performed in physician's office:
Professional fee - $350
NO TECHNICAL/FACILITY FEE

I'm hearing same very negative comments from some companies including the real possibility of going out of business. The insurance mafia strikes again!!!

35

Message Number 207379
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:16

Bill,
Just read this article. It may interest you. Another machine is in town.

Can A Portable ESWT Device Provide Easier Treatment?
5. Orthospec (Medispec). Although extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT) is a noninvasive option for various painful conditions, many ESWT devices are large and mostly available in hospitals and surgery centers due to the cost of the devices. The Orthospec, which recently gained FDA approval, is a more portable device that one can use in the office.

The Orthospec is a portable extracorporeal shockwave therapy device. Its portability and one-time treatment option are key benefits, according to John Hollander, DPM.

Such portability poses several advantages, according to John Hollander, DPM, who has been using Orthospec for a year. The fact that DPMs can have ESWT units in their offices makes for a cost savings since patients do not need to go to hospitals, according to Dr. Hollander, who practices in Santa Rosa, Calif. He also notes that he can perform the procedure with no anesthesia.
Dr. Hollander has used the device to treat plantar fasciitis, retrocalcaneal pain, Achilles tendonopathy and intermetatarsal neuromas.
Another advantage of the device, according to Medispec, is the one-time, 25-minute treatment whereas other ESWT devices usually involve multiple treatments. The company says that unlike with other ESWT devices, the Orthospec does not require an imaging device and one can use the Orthospec to treat a wide area.

36

Message Number 207378
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 16:14

Humor

37

Message Number 207376
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 16:03

Ralph,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks! I couldn't help but notice your intial response 'how much dust it collects.' Was this just a good attempt at humore, or are you in general not a fan/believer in ESWT?

Thanks again!

38

Message Number 207374
Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 8/15/06 at 15:27

How much dust it collects. Actually the Ossatron ESWT machines are used in Outpatient Surgical Centers and generally with the use of an anesthsiologist and anesthesia along with your treating doctor. The treatment with this machine has on occassion been done with foot blocks and relaxation instead of putting the patient out.

When you add up the Surgical Center cost, the charges to the Anesthesiologist, the medication and charges by your treating doctor the costs are usually higher than ESWT treatments performed in doctors offices or in mobile units that travel to multiple doctors offices. I think you'll find most doctors using mobile units or units in their office are using a Dornier ESWT machine.

Additionally there are a few doctors who use a low power machine off label to treat Plantar Fasciitis. Their treatments are done in their offices and usually consists of three separate sessions. This type of ESWT treatment is usually the cheapest.

Recently medicare approved payment to doctors for performing ESWT but the payments are so low that many doctors hesitate to treat medicare patients. Personally I think it's because they fear accepting what they think are lower than standard fees. Doing so may set a precedent for future payments by other insurance companies if and when they decide to cover ESWT. Two years after the fact doctors are still holding out hope that it will eventually come.

It's my opinion at this point doctors need to decide if they want their machines to collect, lower their fees, or offer attractive payment plans to patients.

Shopping around will more than likely get you the best deal. Some doctors like the Ossatron machine and others like the Dornier and still others like the low power one done with three treatments. Each will sell you what they like and use.

39

Message Number 207371
what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by BillL on 8/15/06 at 14:19


There seem to be a lot of different prices for ESWST out there. Does it vary with the machine used, or what? What is reasonable?

Result number: 131

Message Number 207932

Re: To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/20/06 at 11:10

Shari,

You had the Ossatron done without being sedated?

-dW

Result number: 132

Message Number 207910

To Driver Wilde View Thread
Posted by Shari R on 8/20/06 at 08:41

That was the first time I've heard anyone say that ESWT can bring tears to a patient. I know it doesn't for everyone but for me it was the worse pain I've ever experienced. Would I do it again...yes. Did it work .....no. I do believe it works for alot of people but it only hurt in different areas and never hurt after,even for a second. I also have TTS and I'm sure that didn't help.

Result number: 133

Message Number 207673

Re: what is a reasobale charge per foot with ESWT? View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 8/18/06 at 08:54

As a matter of fact, Ralph. Many of the patients treated in the FDA study for the Ossatron were done with a regional anesthetic only. Yes, it is very uncomfortable for the patient and not practical due to the huge amounts of lidocaine needed to numb the foot sufficiently (bordering on toxic doses).

The main reason the Ossatron must be used in the Surgery Center is because Healthtronics/Sanuwave have required that it be used in a surgery center. They have spent years claiming that high energy ESWT has to be done in an ASC or hospital so they could keep differentiate between ASC reimbursement and office reimbursement. Another problem with the Ossatron is that it is 700 lbs and 7 feet long. It won't fit in most doctors' treatment rooms.

Now that Sanuwave's contract with UHC is going down the toilet they are again offering to do treatments in a doctor's office. Good luck with that. Usually an Ossatron procedure is about 6 minutes under general or MAC.... under local it could take well over an hour and a lot of tears from the patient.

Point is.... the FDA says it's safe and effective to ues on humans but does not mandate it be used in an ASC.

-DW

Result number: 134

Message Number 206920

Re: MUF: the morning after? View Thread
Posted by MUF on 8/10/06 at 16:40

You keep feeling better too!

I really can't say much about the TTR or the plantar fasciectomy. I have much more pain still from the ligament and tendon surgery last Feb on the lateral side. Tendon appears to be slipping AGAIN despite a repair. Keeping compression on my ankle (except when asleep) is really helping the TT side. I cannot imagine having my right foot our of commission again. I had to find a driver and still pay for parking and gas just to get to work. Plus pay the driver......Expensive!

Result number: 135

Message Number 205307

Re: Donations to our Doctors View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 7/25/06 at 21:04

Notice I stated GIRL not Boy Driver. Sorry

Result number: 136

Message Number 205301

Re: Donations to our Doctors View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 7/25/06 at 19:34

Scott,

My new Maserati driver needs some driving lessions. I will donate the money to her. Do you need her SS number.

Result number: 137

Message Number 205300

Re: Donations to our Doctors View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 7/25/06 at 19:34

Scott,

My new Maserati driver needs some driving lessions. I will donate the money to her. Do you need her SS number.

Result number: 138

Message Number 205299

Re: Donations to our Doctors View Thread
Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 7/25/06 at 19:33

Scott,

My new Maserati driver needs some driving lessions. I will donate the money to her. Do you need her SS number.

Result number: 139

Message Number 204711

Actual Bumper Stickers View Thread
Posted by Denise on 7/19/06 at 18:00

Bitchy Bumper Stickers
Actual bumper stickers found on cars and trucks!

· Constipated People Don't Give A Shit.

· Practice Safe Sex, Go Screw Yourself.

· If You Drink, Don't Park; Accidents Cause People.

· Who Lit The Fuse On Your Tampon?

· If You Don't Believe In Oral Sex , Keep Your Mouth Shut.

· Please Tell Your Pants Its Not Polite To Point.

· If That Phone Was Up Your Butt, Maybe You Could Drive A
Little Better.

· My Kid Got Your Honor Roll Student Pregnant.

· To All You Virgins, Thanks For Nothing.

· If At First You Don't Succeed .. Blame Someone Else ... And
Seek Counseling.

· Impotence: Nature's Way Of Saying "No Hard Feelings".

· If You Can Read This, I've Lost My Trailer.

· Horn Broken ... Watch For Finger.

· If You're Not A Hemorrhoid, Get Off My Ass.

· You're Just Jealous Because The Voices Are Talking To Me.

· The Earth Is Full --- Go Home.

· I Have The Body Of A God .... Buddha.

· This Would Be Really Funny If It Weren't Happening To Me.

· So Many Pedestrians --- So Little Time.

· Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult.

· If We Quit Voting, Will They All Go Away?

· The Face Is Familiar But I Can't Quite Remember My Name.

· Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway.

· Illiterate? Write For Help.

· Cover Me, I'm Changing Lanes.

· He Who Hesitates Is Not Only Lost But Miles From The Next
Exit.

· I Refuse To Have A Battle Of Wits With An Unarmed Person.

· You! Out Of The Gene Pool!

· I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To.

· Where Are We Going And Why Am I In This Hand Basket?

· It's Been Lovely, But I Have To Scream Now.

· I Haven't Lost My Mind, It's Backed Up On Disk Somewhere.

· If You Can Read This, The Bitch Fell Off.
[Seen On The Back Of A Biker's Vest].

· If Sex Is A Pain In The Ass, Then You're Doing It Wrong.

· Fight Crime --- Shoot Back!

· If You Can Read This, Please Flip Me Back Over.
[Seen upside Down, On A Jeep]

· Remember Folks --- Stop Lights Timed For 35mph Are Also
Timed For 70mph.

· Guys --- No Shirt, No Service; Gals --- No Shirt, No Charge.
[Reported To Be Seen On A Restaurant]

· If Walking Is So Good For You, Then Why Does My Mailman Look
Like Jabba the Hut?

· Necro phillia --- That Uncontrollable Urge To Crack Open A
Cold One.

· Ax Me 'bout Ebonics.

· Body By Nautilus --- Brain By Mattel.

· Boldly Going Nowhere.

· Cat --- The Other White Meat.

· Caution --- Driver Legally Blonde!

· Don't Be Sexist --- Broads Hate That.

· Heart Attacks .. God's Revenge For Eating His Animal
Friends.

· · How Many Roads Must A Man Travel Down Before He Admits
He Is Lost?

· · Money Isn't Everything, But It Sure Keeps The Kids
In Touch.

.. I know there is a hell because I work in Retail.

Result number: 140

Message Number 204710

Famous Quotes View Thread
Posted by Denise on 7/19/06 at 17:55

Ah, yes divorce...from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet. - Robin Williams

Women complain about premenstrual syndrome, but I think of it as the only time of the month that I can be myself. - Roseanne

Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place. - Billy Crystal

You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, "My God, you're right! I never would've thought of that!" - Dave Barry

According to a new survey, women say they feel more comfortable undressing in front of men than they do undressing in front of other women. They say that women are too judgmental, where, of course, men are just grateful. - Jay Leno

In the last couple of weeks I have seen the ads for the Wonder Bra. Is that really a problem in this country? Men not paying enough attention to women's breasts? - Jay Leno

We have women in the military, but they don't put us in the front lines. They don't know if we can fight, if we can kill. I think we can. All the general has to do is walk over to the women and say, "You see the enemy over there? They say you look fat in those uniforms." - Elayne Boosler

Always be nice to your children because they are the ones who will choose your rest home. - Phyllis Diller

There's a new medical crisis. Doctors are reporting that many men are having allergic reactions to latex condoms. They say they cause severe swelling. So, what's the problem? - Jay Leno

When the sun comes up, I have morals again. - Elayne Boosler

There's very little advice in men's magazines, because men don't think there's a lot they don't know. Women do. Women want to learn. Men think, "I know what I'm doing, just show me somebody naked." - Jerry Seinfeld

If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin

Instead of getting married again, I'm going to find a woman I don't like and give her a house. - Lewis Grizzard

The problem with the designated driver program, it's not a desirable job.
But if you ever get sucked into doing it, have fun with it. At the end of the night, drop them off at the wrong house. - Jeff Foxworthy

See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time. - Robin Williams

Result number: 141

Message Number 204003

Re: bad doctoring View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 7/13/06 at 19:10

Ok, I'll pay the shipping....

Result number: 142

Message Number 204002

Re: bad doctoring View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 7/13/06 at 19:09

I'll give ya $300 for it... but you gotta pay the shipping to Florida!

Result number: 143

Message Number 202763

Re: Raleigh, NC? View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 7/02/06 at 11:15


David,

My sister just moved to the Wilmington area. The prices of real estate are going up very quickly down there. Seems everyone from the North wants to move to NC! Don't forget they have a 7% sales tax, on everything, and an income tax that ranges from 6-8.25%. You probably still come out ahead of the game.

I don't know anything about their school systems except that the first high school my nephew attended in Wilmington was awful and the new one he's attending in the suburbs, where they've since moved, seems much better.

Do you live in NH, like me? Your mention of property taxes made me wonder. Yes, we have no sales tax and no income tax. We have no services, either, and the fees for everything from getting a driver's license to registering a boat are as much as triple the price of that of neighboring states.

Result number: 144

Message Number 202696

Re: oil part 2 View Thread
Posted by john h on 7/01/06 at 19:17

Dorothy: I rode a bike for two years in Vietnam. In high school I rode a Whizzer Motor Bike (the motor cost $75 and I put it on my bike). I would think it got 100 mpg. I drove a VW for many years (in the 60's of course when fuel was as low as $.25 pg). I drive a big car now but do not drive very far. During the last fuel crisis I drove a Buick Park Ave. diesel.

In 1973 I was in the over the road trucking business. Diesel cost from $.02 to $.05 per gallon and was almost a non factor to operating expenses. Today diesel is in line with regular gas. An over the road tractor would carry from 200-300 gal of fuel and get around 4-5 mpg. Today the big rigs get around 7-8 mpg but a fill up cost around $840 making a coast to coast cost around $1100 or more in fuel. Most people do not realize just how much of our economy moves on trucks. Wallmart by itself must have from 3000 to 5000 trucks (Tractors). A typical truck engine overhaul occurs at 300,000 miles and today I would guess cost near $5000. A over the road tire cost approximately $300 each and each tractor has 10 tires and the trailer has 8 tires. You can expect to get around 100,000 miles on a tire if you keep them inflated at the proper pressure. Todays Macks, Peterbilts, Harvesters probably cost from $75,000 on up. A Trailer (non refrig) is probably in the $25,000 range. License tags depending on the state from $1600 to $5000 per year. Fuel taxes on tractors is based on the number of miles you run in each state as you may not buy any fuel in a state yet travis across the entire state using their roads. It is a nightmare for trucking companies to keep track of miles run in each state although some new technology may have improved this problem. Drivers are paid by the mile driven and I would guess is around
$.25 per mile these days but it is a hard life.

Result number: 145

Message Number 202489

To: God From: The Dog View Thread
Posted by Denise on 6/29/06 at 18:49

TO: GOD

FROM: THE DOG

Dear God: Why do humans smell the flowers, but seldom, if ever, smell one another?

Dear God: When we get to heaven, can we sit on your couch? Or is it still the same old story?

Dear God: Why are there cars named after the jaguar, the cougar, the mustang, the colt, the stingray, and the rabbit, but not ONE named for a dog? How often do you see a cougar riding around? We do love a nice ride! Would it be so hard to rename the "Chrysler Eagle" the ∜Chrysler Beagle"?

Dear God: If a dog barks his head off in the forest and no human hears him, is he still a bad dog?

Dear God: We dogs can understand human verbal instructions, hand signals, whistles, horns, clickers, beeper s, scent ID's, electromagnetic energy fields, and Frisbee flight paths What do humans understand?

Dear God: More meatballs, less spaghetti, please.

Dear God: Are there mailmen in Heaven? If there are, will I have to apologize?

Dear God: Let me give you a list of just some of the things I must remember to be a good dog.

1. I will not eat the cats' food before they eat it or after they throw it up.

2.. I will not roll on dead seagulls, fish, crabs, etc., just because I like the way they smell.

3 I will not munch on "leftovers" in the kitty litter box, although they are tasty.

4. The diaper pail is not a cookie jar.

5. The sofa is not a 'face towel'. Neither are Mom and Dad's laps.

6. The garbage collector is not stealing our stuff.

7. My head does not belong in the refrigerator.

8. I will not bite the officer∙s hand when he reaches in for Mom's driver's license and registration.

9. I will not play tug-of-war with Dad's underwear when he's on the toilet.

10. Sticking my nose into someone's crotch is an unacceptable way of saying "hello".

11. I don't need to suddenly stand straight up when I'm under the coffee table.

12.. I must shake the rainwater out of my fur before entering the house - not after.

13. I will not throw up in the car.

14. I will not come in from outside and immediately drag my butt.

15. I will not sit in the middle of the living room and lick my crotch when we have company.

16. The cat is not a 'squeaky toy' so when I play with him and he makes that noise, it's usually not a good thing.

And, finally, my last question...


Dear God: When I get to Heaven may I have my testicles back?

Result number: 146

Message Number 202479

Day 3 of the allotted political talk? A longish stream on random thoughts... View Thread
Posted by Dorothy on 6/29/06 at 17:20

AJ or anyone else here who cares to read a long stream - It is not a concept that is original to me by any means, but I agree with it: the belief that for a society to survive and thrive there must be fundamental elements that bind that society together - a shared language serves that aim, as do basic values. Yes, speaking more than one language is a worthy educational goal, but that is a different matter from there being a single primary language that we all use to speak to each other, use to learn the laws, the rules, the principles, the written record of the nation. You can learn to speak Spanish or French anytime you want, but the primary language of the U.S. is English and there is not one thing wrong with that fact. If the Germans, Italians, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Eastern Europeans, French, Dutch and even the “Native Americans” learned to speak English as their adopted primary language, why shouldn't the Mexicans? What rational argument is there for not requiring that all citizens speak one common language which at present is English. Doesn’t all the governmental kowtowing to the Mexicans and the “Hispanics” make you suspicious? If everything has to be printed and spoken in Spanish as well as English, why not Chinese? German? French? If you lived in France, Italy, Greece, would you learn to speak their language in order to function in their society? It is somewhat of a moot point since most other nations do speak English, but the point is that they have a primary language of their own, in addition to what is still the language of commerce: English. I happen to think that English is also the language of important ideas, the documents of liberty and the philosophies behind our founding and our survival - such as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address and Washington’s speeches and Churchill’s and Martin Luther King’s and on and on….. Do you plan to learn to speak Chinese? That might be the more important language to learn actually, given the way things are going. All of us will be working for the Chinese, Spanish and English speaking laborers alike. If you think that sounds like an appealing prospect, I would suggest you read all you can about The Chinese Cultural Revolution that occurred during the not so distant past and is a horror that even science fiction couldn’t fully imagine. Simply because China has embraced some western behaviors should not lull you - or the Chinese - into some false comfort; China knows well how to force social change! This country, the U.S., has tremendous pressures at every turn and illegal aliens are just one of those pressures, albeit a major one. What is most disturbing is how complicit our government is with those forces that appear to undermine our very stability and identity.

Some very simple, basic reasons for requiring that everyone learn English are like these: There is a fire in the building! Get out! …… There is a chemical spill in your neighborhood! Evacuate! …… Your child has been injured on the playground! Come quickly!…. Look out! That oil is hot!

But those are very pedestrian reasons. The higher order reasons are about matters of human endeavor, human spirit, liberty, decency, accomplishment, responsibility and accountability…..

I also think that the role of the Roman Catholic Church needs to be looked at with regard to illegal immigration to the U.S. Many small-town Catholic churches in the U.S. have seen mass go from English to all Spanish, with Mexican style customs taking precedence over the previously practiced church customs. It is a matter of demographics and congregations. The Catholic church in the U.S.has much to gain from the now swelling congregations that were heretofore dwindling and it still holds much sway in the parts of the world where illegals are largely coming from. I am not Catholic, nor am I a fan of the Catholic church and I don't think much of an argument can be made about the moral rectitude of the Catholic Church anywhere, including the U.S., at present or throughout history. So if you have the Catholic church on one hand, greedy American business owners more than eager to exploit cheap labor on another, political parties that see new 'recruits' on another hand, the current administration that is in league with these various factions, and finally Mexico itself which has seen the emigration of its poorest and perhaps criminally inclined citizens to the U.S. and who then send back lots of cash to Mexico - and for all of this, the "silent majority" foots the bill .....If you aren't sure of what you believe or aren't sure of what is right; if you are afraid to speak up and out for fear of being called something negative and if you don't write or vote your opinions on what is happening, then there is no opposition to the loud voices that say illegal immigration is a good thing. It could be stopped in its tracks: force employers, landlords, and others to follow the law. Reverse that insane policy of allowing illegals to get driver's licenses, free U.S. education, health care, welfare. Deport! Place sanctions on Mexico! Outlaw cash wages! OR - acknowledge that our country WANTS Mexican/Central/South American immigration, establish a multi-tier system of pay and tell the truth: our country believes in a peasant class, a fiefdom system. Start putting rich people in jail for hiring illegal nannies, yard workers, roofers, carpet layers etc. Or force employers to pay legal, living wages and Social Security and all the other payments required by law, to everyone - and then see if "no Americans will do that work"!! Is hiring cheap Mexican labor a way to avoid hiring American black workers?? If the U.S is going to permit a multi-tier system of wages, then take black American males out of prison and let them work off their time at low wages! No? Does that smack of indentured labor too much; is it too akin to slave labor? Exactly!! And that's just one of the things that is wrong with what is going on!!

What do you think will be the “glue” that will bind all Americans together in the future, if not language, if not values, if not shared customs and consensus on the law, on decent behavior? What exactly will “America” mean? A place where you can make lots of bucks, any way you can, and nothing more? That is not a sustainable binding. People in Afghanistan, in Turkey, in Egypt, in Cameroon, all around the world can make a buck, any way they can……that doesn’t hold the core solid and steady. What are the ties that bind Americans together?

What has traditionally set America apart from other nations? I can answer that according to my own study, observations and understandings, but how would you or anyone else answer? I am very worried about our country and the huge influx of illegal immigrants is part of what worries me, but not the only part. It is not even so much the fact that the illegal immigrants have come and stayed in such huge numbers, but that our government has permitted and even encouraged it! Our government has encouraged a foreign invasion paid for by American taxpayers for the purpose of enriching a select few. Our government has villainized those Americans along the border who are trying to defend their property from a foreign invasion as “vigilantes”, as “racists”, as “unAmerican”. Our government has institutionalized the taking of private property under eminent domain, not for schools or highways, but for retail commercial development! Think about these things. There are many deeply serious pressures that are working against our health, well being and prosperity as a nation, as an entity that bears any resemblance to its traditions and heritage. It seems to me that we have abandoned all principles except for militarism and commercialism and the form of militarism embraced by this administration and its cheerleaders bears no relationship to the military of WWII, so often thought of with respect and reverence and gratitude. I think this current government has abandoned American foundational principles, as well as having abandoned both the citizens of this country AND its military, and colludes with a global corporate and criminal web. (An aside: please remember that Rumsfeld and Cheney got their start under Nixon, one of America's heretofore more corrupt and debauched 'leaders'.)
The problem with the people in power now is that, even if you love conservative philosophy - which has much intellectual interest and honesty to it, as does traditional liberalism - these people are NOT conservatives! They are not conservatives; they are obviously not liberals - so what are they? What exactly do they stand for? Where exactly have they "led" us? Try to separate what they SAY – the speeches that are written for manipulative, propagandizing effect that are only read (and sometimes very poorly read) by W – from what they actually DO, what they have “accomplished”. Who in this world is better off now compared to “the year 2000” ???

You are correct that we are a nation of immigrants - even the so-called "Native Americans" came to this land from somewhere else. The difference now is the rate and rapidity and numbers and motivations of the immigration. Immigration must be considered within a context - whether it's a given time, a given economic circumstance, social pressures, environmental pressures, etc. etc.
There is great danger in illegal immigration, to the integrity of U.S. society, to the environment, to prosperity. If employers were forced by enforcing existing laws to pay legal wages to laborers - ALL laborers - then this myth of the "jobs that no Americans will do" would quickly end. There is a long tradition of LEGAL immigrants to this country taking manual labor jobs, entry-level jobs, “grunt” work just to make a living while moving up in the world. There is also a tradition of American youth doing some of the “grunt” work now done by illegal aliens: seasonal farm work, landscaping jobs, childcare, etc. Anybody else here do any corn de-tassling, for example? On the other side of the argument, the illegals are sending large portions of their earnings to Mexico (or wherever) which is a significant redistribution of wealth - American employers increase their profits by hiring illegal laborers, illegals send their wages back to Mexico, Mexico and Central America send their poorest or their criminal underbelly to the U.S. to collect wages, to wage urban (and increasingly suburban) criminal wars, to use finite resources that American tax-payers provide, and so on, and it is the dwindling American middle-class taxpayer that foots the bill for ALL of it, the same taxpayer whose own wages have been stagnant for a very long time, if they are lucky enough to still have a decent job, and now here comes inflation..... I have obviously oversimplified and inadequately described it, but it is a bad cycle, bad for everyone – except the wealthiest elite in the U.S. and Mexico, and for the U.S. Catholic Church.

Finally, the idea that all immigrants be required to learn to fluently use the host language - in this case, English - has been the understood and generally accepted norm for a couple of centuries, at least. People might continue to speak their familial language at home, but they learned English for public use. The public was not expected to change to suit the newcomer! At the time of the great immigration from eastern Europe when large numbers of immigrants were not English-speaking, schools were established for that very purpose! It is a glue for any society - one shared language - and that is only a starting point. Values that established this nation need to be taught and inculcated by EVERYONE, not just new immigrants! It is a dangerous and shameful fact that Americans are so stunningly ignorant, inarticulate, uninformed and easily persuaded by propaganda and jingoism – and excited and attracted by the lowest common denominator that humanity produces, rather than the elements that made the U.S. its better ‘self’. There is very little consensus on anything in the U.S. anymore, so what exactly constitutes "America"?

About U.S. warmaking: Here’s my latest theory: I think the Bush people invaded Iraq in order to get out of Afghanistan, which they had seen destroy the Soviet Union. I think that they thought it was going to be a sure thing: invade Iraq, fix what Daddy Bush left undone, be a hero to the Iraqis (ignoring the decades of oppression and corruption brought by the U.S. forced and corrupted sanctions and debauched by the UN), give the illusion of avenging 9/11, and establishing an easily gained military presence in that part of the world, wherin exists lots of oil. Also by abandoning Afghanistan, for all practical purposes, it would soon lead to the resurgence of the Taliban, the only body that has effectively controlled poppy/heroin production and the violent drug trade associated with it. If the U.S. had actually ever had any interest in the horrors visited upon women under the Taliban, they would have “liberated” them long ago, but they did and said nothing – for decades. (They only became part of Bush’s “noble cause” speeches when it suited his purposes, but their abject suffering has gone on for decades with no previous intervention or concern from the U.S.! )They did observe what Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union – even though the propagandists love to give Ronald Reagan credit for that – and they know there is no good that can come from hanging around that mountainous, violent, warlord-run place – not to mention the fact that it has no oil! How to get out? Ah, yes! Look! Just over the mountains! It’s Iraq, home of the despot that humiliated W’s daddy! It’s just that they got more than they bargained for – and none of this had anything to do with 9/11. If it truly had had anything to do with 9/11, we would have taken on Saudi Arabia or Pakistan – but no, those are our “allies” – or Sudan or Somalia, but no, those places are in Africa! Do you ever get the sense that we are living in one of those funhouse mirror places where everything is distorted??!! I think that Bush personally had one item on his agenda – get Hussein, because he made his daddy look weak and emasculated – and this was his golden opportunity to clean up after Daddy and make himself look tough and righteous in the process, even tougher and better than Daddy – a man that had actually accomplished something in his life, unlike W. – and all with the added bonus of getting control over all that oil and a military position in the Middle East. Others had other agendas, but I think his was pretty simplistic: familial revenge with a side-dish of increased wealth for Bush cronies and crony-hands in the oil-pot. It is said by those who are identified as experts that Afghanistan is a big, smoldering mess, unlike Iraq which is a smoldering, big mess. Notice that the Bush people appear to be suddenly moving towards getting troops out of that part of the world…… or maybe they’re just getting ready for the next hurricane! Who knows….. and since W and Dick fancy themselves as King and Consort (which is which?), they don’t have to tell nobody nothin’. I’m getting old enough that I am reluctant to wish for the rapid passage of time, but I do hope our nation can survive this administration and I do hope for the rapid arrival of 2008 when I hope sanity returns to the country…. I worry about how they might use fear and chaos in the meantime to win elections and retain power……And I have some worry that they will not leave when the time comes…. There are also those very worrisome internal wars between the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon and the White House and the bizarre decisions from the Supreme Court….. and where does that leave the rest of us poor suckers out here in the cold?! We’re trying to learn Spanish and Chinese as fast as we can and taking off our shoes and our babies’ diapers at airports and having our identities stolen right and left – while we just keep on paying the bills for all the madness; we’ll hang out our flags on the 4th and hope that somehow, somebody remembers why we celebrate the 4th – our ancestors liberated themselves from tyranny and formed a new nation based on the most magnificent principles!

The most tragic thing is to see American soldiers interviewed or watch the scenes of units being deployed from U.S. airports, hear them and their families talk about what they are doing as if it is some noble cause and to also see the Iraqi families carrying their dead or weeping over the bodies, to hear about the mental health crises among American military personnel returned to the U.S., the destroyed bodies and spirits – and all of this was for what exactly? For the Cheneys? For the Bushes? For Rumsfeld? How many of the extended Bush family are in Iraq? King W wants us to believe that this is a great and noble cause – so why aren’t there Bushes there? Brave W himself sneaks in there in the dead of night – twice – and sneaks out again. What a man! I read today that Bush’s daughter is going to be teaching in South America – with full Secret Service protection, on your dime! Why doesn’t she teach in Detroit? In Chicago? In Washington, D.C.? If she is going to South America, fine, but do it the way any other Americans have to do it – the way her father sent troops to Iraq. Let the Bushes pay for private security, the way troops had to pay for their own armor!!

Daniel Schorr, a wise and brilliant and brave newsman of the old-fashioned kind – and also to be revered for being one of the targets of Nixon’s hatred - did a most marvelous radio commentary several weeks ago delineating Bush’s lies, lie after lie after lie after lie. It was simple, factual and without unnecessary embellishment – it was brilliant and yet completely depressing. I love Daniel Schorr and if I had a transcript and permission, I would submit that essay here. You could possibly locate it on the NPR archives for “All Things Considered” at www.npr.org.

And please, do not anyone give me the speech about how you love this country and I don't and I should leave - apparently, according to some, if you don't worship the Bush-Cheney monarchy, you ain't a true American. You cannot possibly love this country anymore than I do. I love it profoundly. When it starts to feel overwhelmingly like it is no longer any America that I know and I know that I can do nothing to effect change, then - just like the desperate immigrants who left Nazi Germany, a country that many of them and their ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years and felt was THEIR home - I may have to leave. But for now, this is still my country. Because I believe in and revere its founding principles and the values that have held us together, I believe it is far more my country than it is for those who want to treat it like a monarchy, a dictatorship, a military state, a fascist state, a military-corporate complex, a private fiefdom, a plantation, or any other of the ugly elements that seem to be gaining strength here. Because I work for its well being, I think it is more my country than those who mindlessly say: Bush-Cheney = America. Military never do anything wrong. If you've got nothing to hide you shouldn't care if the government is going through your purse, your bank account, your phone records, your library records, etc. If you were a good American, you would shut up. When you say anything negative about the Bush-Cheney government, you "empower the enemy". (I thought we wanted the rest of the world to "become democracies", but I guess we really mean minus that unpleasant little thing called "freedom of speech" - which actually had to do with POLITICAL speech but in America has come to mean only pornographic garbage! You can do pornography in America - that's considered commerce - but political speech can land you in trouble!) Doesn't it worry you that the airport security screeners (that highly educated and professional lot!) are now going to be pulling you aside if you "look suspicious", if you act nervous, worried..... yeah, that's right: you, too, can be considered a suspicious character if you act nervous at an airport!! Who in their right mind is NOT nervous at airports?? And on what will these brilliant workers base their assessments - and we know how wonderfully they've performed heretofore...?? Well, they say, their experience will tell them who looks suspicious! I submit to you that they should start by looking in their own luggage handling departments where their fellow workers are busy stealing from the luggage they are supposed to be inspecting for danger!

The inmates are running the asylum. We are going rapidly down the rabbit hole and too many people want to call it a good ride.

Result number: 147

Message Number 202429

Re: Political posts View Thread
Posted by Denise on 6/28/06 at 21:25


Our Senators and Congressmen need these figures before they vote on amnesty:

2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigration

* 62% of all "undocumented immigrants" in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working
without a green card;

* 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens;

* 83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens;

* 86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens;

* 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens;

* More than 380,000 "anchor babies" were born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer;

* More than 66% of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers;

* 24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

* 40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

* 48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally;

* 29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually;

* More than 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages;

* More than 53% of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens;

* More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border;

* More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens;

* More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens;

* 58% of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens;

* Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens;

* 14 out of 31 TV stations in L.A. are Spanish-only;

* 16 out of 28 TV stations in Phoenix are Spanish-only;

* 15 out of 24 TV stations in Alburquerque are Spanish-only;

* 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish-only;

* 17 radio stations in Phoenix are Spanish-only;

* 17 radio stations in Albuquerque are Spanish-only;

* More than 34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens;

* More than 24% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are non-English-speaking;

* More than 39% of California students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens;

* More than 42% of California students in grades 1-12 are non-English-speaking;

* In Los Angeles County, 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish;

* More than 71% of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by illegal aliens or
transport "coyotes";

* 47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal
aliens;

* 63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal
aliens;

* 66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66%, 98% are illegal
aliens;

* Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops , but 41% are on welfare;

* Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration;

* The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor
Donald Huddle, Rice University];

* The estimated profit to U.S. corporations and businesses employing illegal aliens in 2005 was more than $2.36 TRILLION dollars;

* The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican illegal alien is $55,000.00 cost to the American
taxpayer in a 5-year span. You, personally, are giving $11,000 every year to illegal aliens.

Result number: 148

Message Number 202382

Political posts View Thread
Posted by know them on 6/28/06 at 11:47

As long as this board has gone political I can put in my opinion.

1- Raid every business and if the owner has employed any illegals they get locked up and fined and the border jumpers get deported- man-women and children
2- Citizenship must be a rquirement for a drivers license and any social services. No free services for anyone not a citizen, no health care, no education-NOTHING

3- Any government official, or government employee whether they are local, county, state or federal should be charged with obstruction of justice if an illegal becomes known to them while performing their job duties and not reported to the INS. Any goverment official,like the mayor of New York City, who tells government employees not to report illegal aliens should be charged with obstruction of justice and forced to resign their position.

4- Any private individual who hires an illegal and in addition does not pay payroll tax and FICA gets fined 10x the tax. Second offense should be a trip to the gey bar hotl for a while

5- No child born in the USA will automatically be a citizen unless their parnts) are citizens.

6- Any illegal alien who is currently in the country can obtain citizenship by successfuly completeing 6 years of acceptable voluntary military service at a pay rate 50% of that of a citiizen. In addition 50% of the pay should be withheld and payed at completion of service. Failure to complete the service should subject them to immediate deportation and total loss of withheld pay.

7- No free or sudsidized education for anyone not a citizen.

Result number: 149
Searching file 19

Message Number 199460

Re: The end of ESWT View Thread
Posted by Driver Wilde on 5/19/06 at 14:43

I saw a letter in print yesterday stating they weren't covering as of 1/1/07 and heard a rumor that it was posted on their website. I was unable to find it because I'm not a member. You have a URL or anything?

As far as the end of ESWT, I'm sure it is for some companies. However, no coverage might be better for some than the dollars that Medicare wants to give out.

There's still lots of people making money at Lasik....

Result number: 150

Message Number 199040

For All The Mothers View Thread
Posted by Denise on 5/13/06 at 18:56

For all the Mothers ...


Somebody said it takes about six weeks to get back to normal after you've had a baby .

somebody doesn't know that once you're a mother, "Normal," is history.

Somebody said you learn how to be a mother by instinct .



Somebody never took a three-year-old shopping.

Somebody said being a mother is boring ......



Somebody never rode in a car driven by a teenager with a driver's permit.

Somebody said if you're a "good" mother, your child will "turn out good."

Somebody thinks a child comes with directions and a guarantee.

Somebody said "good" mothers never raise their voices .....

Somebody never came out the back door just in time
to see her child hit a golf ball through the neighbor's kitchen window.


Somebody said you don't need an education to be a mother.

Somebody never helped a fourth grader with her math.

Somebody said you can't love the fifth child as much as you love the first.

Somebody doesn't have five children.

Somebody said a mother can find all the answers to her child-rearing questions in the books ........

Somebody never had a child stuff beans up his nose or in his ears.

Somebody said the hardest part of being a mother is labor and delivery .

Somebody never watched her "baby" get on the bus for the first day of kindergarten.



or on a plane headed for military "boot camp."

Somebody said a mother can do her job with her eyes closed and one hand tied behind her back .......

somebody never organized four giggling Brownies to sell cookies.

Somebody said a mother can stop worrying after her child gets married .... Somebody doesn't know that marriage adds a new son or daughter-in-law to a mother's heartstrings.

Somebody said a mother's job is done when her last child leaves home ....

Somebody never had grandchildren.

Somebody said your mother knows you love her, so you don't need to tell her ........

Somebody isn't a mother.

Pass this along to all the mothers in your life.

Have a Blessed Mother's Day 2006!

Result number: 151

Message Number 198990

Re: successful cryo for PF (cont)...to Cyndi View Thread
Posted by Cyndi on 5/12/06 at 18:19

HI Judy, Jen, Vern, and KB,

I see the Scott has added a " Poster Profile" MaybeI should have been there with my long post, but, anyway HI!

I am seeing a Pain Management DR also, but, all he does is refer me to others so far. He is giving me Lorcet finally, but,it has taken alot for him to see more of a problem than just my feet since I now have two major problems. I have found that with many Dr's. HIs last referral is to a Pelvic Pain Clinic and probably what is on the Dellon site may be my problem with the scar tissue. I suppose could be the same problem in feet???
I also had the Lumbar Epidural Block like Jen and they even make you bring a driver with you. Unfgortuniately with me, I had No, yes, NO feeling of any kind after I had it. I could have got right up and gone to dinner, just kidding, about dinner, can't afford to. I had a $100
co- pay for this and it was to see if I got relief, if so , maybe a stimulator implant would have been done.

Vern, I also take Effexor where you take the Amitrip???
(sp?). It has worked well for me and depression long before I had these problems.
KB, gosh four surgeries, well if that is what it takes, I would be for it. That Tarsel tunnel looked like OUCH!
They say I do not have that when they used the tuning fork.
The second POD said that. I also went to physical therapy for water walking exercise and they said I did not have PF. So, who knows what to do. Just get rid of this pain and let back to life is my goal. All of this has sure changed it. I have even been invited to a faith healing. I will go and try, sure could not hurt.
The only thing I have not done is acupuncture and I cannot afford it, especially since my disability is under appeal right now. I am learning deep breathing, just take real deep breaths and hold , then exhale.
I do have appts in June with the Pelvic Clinic and a New Neurologist.My old one is now doing headache clinics and wanted to refer me back to my primary DR.
Well, together we learn, thanks to all of you for sharing!
Smiles, Cyndi ;-)

Result number: 152

Message Number 197888

Re: Calling all recipes View Thread
Posted by Bob G. on 4/23/06 at 00:51

Chicken - there's a special recipe, I'll try to dig it up...OR...

Lasagne - just grab a box of noodles and follow the recipe - this has always made the hit parade. Be sure to use the finest beef and spicy Italian sausage money can buy, plenty of the three cheeses, use a large cassarolle (where's spell check?) dish - and if you've got the time, two hours, this will impress the Pope!!!

But I'll try to find this special chicken recipe...as I recall...it occured while...

...driving in the country, a man swerved to avoid striking a chicken that had suddenly darted onto the road. The bird not only avoided being struck but began to run ahead of the car, keeping in front even after the driver accelerated to 60 miles per hour. Fascinated, the man followed the chicken as it turned down a lane leading to a farm. It was then that he noticed that the chicken had three legs - in fact, the farmyard was full of three-legged chickens.

As the driver stopped his car, the farmer approached him. "I was just admiring your chickens," the man said. "I've never seen the three-legged variety before."

"Well, we developed this special hybrid so that for every two chickens we raised, we would have an extra pair of legs to sell," the farmer explained.

"How do they taste?"

"Don't rightly know," the farmer said with a shrug. "Never been able to catch one."

Result number: 153

Message Number 197583

4 weeks on..... View Thread
Posted by JM on 4/17/06 at 00:45

ESWT (Dornier EPOS) four weeks ago (both feet, although one was significantly more troublesome than the other), here are my observations at this point:

-- the pulling/burning/ripping sensation I had experienced every time I stretched (intentionally or not) my foot/ankle has decreased a lot...but not disappeared

-- while there's the morning pain is NOT at all like it was before the procedure, I do have some soreness when I get out of bed/up off the couch/out of the driver's seat when I've been off my feet for a while

-- conversely, I do have some soreness after I've been on my feet too long

-- Dr. Z was right again...regular heat (soak in hot water) does seem to have a positive effect. Although, I do tend to use ice after I've overdone it (...like tonight, after my first road run [20+ mins]...not a good idea. my feet are very sore as a result. so, i will ice & heat & ice and not do that again for a bit)

-- I've been using the elliptical machine at the gym and for the most part have been ok...althought, if I overdo I may be a bit sore and limpy the next day

-- Every once in a while, I do get a phantom pain at different locations of each foot for no apparent reason. I've (wishfully) attributed that to the healing process

That's all for now. Any thoughts/ideas/recommendations would be appreciated.

Result number: 154

Message Number 196884

Hi everyone, I'm in Holland! Had 2 treatments of Aqua Tilis View Thread
Posted by Bambi/Helen Tap4TTS.co.uk on 4/04/06 at 09:03

Hi all,

Sorry for the multiple posts below the hotel's computer has gone mad! I wasn't planning on there being internet access in hotel, I have not bought my laptop with me (too much to struggle with) but I have bought an internet card of 1 hr at the hotel. sorry any emails I receive I cannot check yet. I cannot access them but I have been trying.

I had my second treatment of Aqua Tilis today. I am pain free whilst in the steam room which I am surprised at because I thought the heat would drive my Neuropathic Pain mad! In fact it is the opposite! The clinic is really busy and there was a man there also from the UK, did not have chance to talk yet but I might see him there again this week. All the local Taxi drivers say that they take many people to the clinic and one driver said that she takes a lady ther who has lung cancer, and she finds that it has helped.

After 1 treatment it has made skin softer (especially my feet which was very dry even with using foot creams), I can breath far more easily and my mobility has improved! After my second treatment, same as above but increased energy and mobility plus I finally that a cloud is shifting over my head and I can think again, I do not feel heavily drugged all the time (something I had struggled with the amount of medication I take) It is doing something, I cannot explain yet but I am beginning to feel like I did before my operations. I do not know if it will help with my pain but my immune system must be getting a boost.

I am not easily convinced with new treatments and of talk consultants gives. But I have noticed a difference... for the better! please watch this space. I will be giving all info regarding treatment etc on my return!

see www.aquatilis.com

Best wishes to you all,

from Helen (currently in Holland!)
www.Tap4TTS.co.uk

Result number: 155

Message Number 196830

Re: Has anyone had an experienc like mine? View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 4/03/06 at 15:11

So should we expect Sanuwave and Medispec and Orbysone and all the other companies using other high energy shockwave devices to raise hell over the fact that they have been excluded from using 28890 because they do not have ultrasound guidance???

How soon should we expect the lawsuit here?

Sure haven't heard much of it here on the east coast. Coz it ain't happening....

Z is right... again.

-dW

Result number: 156

Message Number 193501

Re: BACK AGAIN View Thread
Posted by non-believer on 2/14/06 at 16:48

Mark- At our McDonalds we have found that if you put a french fry between each toe and a Big Mack in your shoe under your heel all pain from plantar fasciitis will vanish. It does not work with a burger and fries from Roy Rogers, Wendys or Burger King. We are appyling to the FDA for approval of our treatment. Visa and Mastercard cover the therapy- they will pay for the fries and burger- just don't tell them you are going to put them in your shoe. Alternativel do not try to eat your orthotics despite the recipes that Dr. Z has written for orthotic stew, baked orthoticss, and foot support soup.
I love that phrase Driver- it has made my 2 brothers and I very very wealthy over the past 10 years from the 9 McDonald franchises we own over a 400 mile stretch of a major interstate highway. You are probably one of the fattys that eat them every day along with a 1000 cal big mac supersized.
and to FB(must mean (F)ull of (B)aloney

Sory for the mental condition you have that is preventing you from posting an understandable statement. Why don't you try a massage from a chiropactor. They claim that a massage can cure everyting. SanFillipo want to dig up Elvis because he say chiropractic therapy can bring him back to life.

Result number: 157

Message Number 193370

Re: Get Rid ! View Thread
Posted by non-believer on 2/12/06 at 19:03

Mark- At our McDonalds we have found that if you put a french fry between each toe and a Big Mack in your shoe under your heel all pain from plantar fasciitis will vanish. It does not work with a burger and fries from Roy Rogers, Wendys or Burger King. We are appyling to the FDA for approval of our treatment. Visa and Mastercard cover the therapy- they will pay for the fries and burger- just don't tell them you are going to put them in your shoe. Alternativel do not try to eat your orthotics despite the recipes that Dr. Z has written for orthotic stew, baked orthoticss, and foot support soup.
I love that phrase Driver- it has made my 2 brothers and I very very wealthy over the past 10 years from the 9 McDonald franchises we own over a 400 mile stretch of a major interstate highway. You are probably one of the fattys that eat them every day along with a 1000 cal big mac supersized.
and to FB(must mean (F)ull of (B)aloney

Sory for the mental condition you have that is preventing you from posting an understandable statement. Why don't you try a massage from a chiropactor. They claim that a massage can cure everyting. SanFillipo want to dig up Elvis because he say chiropractic therapy can bring him back to life.

Result number: 158

Message Number 193285

to Mark & Driver& FB View Thread
Posted by non-belIever on 2/11/06 at 12:16

Mark- At our McDonalds we have found that if you put a french fry between each toe and a Big Mack in your shoe under your heel all pain from plantar fasciitis will vanish. It does not work with a burger and fries from Roy Rogers, Wendys or Burger King. We are appyling to the FDA for approval of our treatment. Visa and Mastercard cover the therapy- they will pay for the fries and burger- just don't tell them you are going to put them in your shoe. Alternativel do not try to eat your orthotics despite the recipes that Dr. Z has written for orthotic stew, baked orthoticss, and foot support soup.
I love that phrase Driver- it has made my 2 brothers and I very very wealthy over the past 10 years from the 9 McDonald franchises we own over a 400 mile stretch of a major interstate highway. You are probably one of the fattys that eat them every day along with a 1000 cal big mac supersized.
and to FB(must mean (F)ull of (B)aloney

Sory for the mental condition you have that is preventing you from posting an understandable statement. Why don't you try a massage from a chiropactor. They claim that a massage can cure everyting. SanFillipo want to dig up Elvis because he say chiropractic therapy can bring him back to life.

Result number: 159

Message Number 193182

Re: chiropractor cured my plantar fasciitis View Thread
Posted by non-believer on 2/09/06 at 19:44

I love that phrase Driver- it has made my 2 brothers and I very very wealthy over the past 10 years from the 9 McDonald franchises we own over a 400 mile stretch of a major interstate highway. You are probably one of the fattys that eat them every day along with a 1000 cal big mac supersized.

Result number: 160

Message Number 193139

Re: chiropractor cured my plantar fasciitis View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 2/09/06 at 07:27

Non-Believer,

Your anonymous posts about the level of education of our Medical community prompts me to ask the question.....

Can I have fries with that?

-DW

Result number: 161

Message Number 192461

Re: More Flying View Thread
Posted by john h on 1/30/06 at 10:43

Kathy: Your post about fog in N.H. immediately brings to mind a funny story. I was flying back from Europe with mostly civilian passengers. McGuire AFB was socked in with fog and the closest alternate landing site was in N.H. (I think it was Manchhester) It was foggy there also but above minimums. It was about 11pm when we touched down. By the time we got all the passengers unloaded and caught a cab into town is was 1am in the morning. We found a hotel and then asked a cab driver to take us anyplace to eat. He said there was only one place open. I am thinking the name of the place was the Waldorf Restaurant. He drove us there and to our surprise it was full of people. We found only one empty table in the rear. As I looked around it was obvious something was not right with the patrons here! On closer observation it was obvious we were in a restaurant with all Gays or cross dressers. We had not even been given our menus when a fight broke out in the front of the restaurant. Within minutes the entire place was in a mass brawl with chairs flying and people screaming. Being in the back we were near an emergency exit which we ran out which then set off san alarm. By the time we were in the street several police cars had arrived. As we stood there everyone in the restaurant was hauled out and placed in police wagons and hauled off. I am not sure how I would have explained to my Commander how we were hauled off with cross dressers and a group of angry Gay people and thrown in jail if we had not got out just in time.

Result number: 162
Searching file 18

Message Number 189783

Re: ESWT UPDATE- View Thread
Posted by Ralf on 12/16/05 at 17:53

Sorry for the typos- I have only 3 finger on my right hand because my mother cut them off because I was a habitual nose picker and she thought it would cure me. She left me the important finger though so I can still say hello to other drivers.

Result number: 163

Message Number 189609

critters... View Thread
Posted by Suzanne D. on 12/13/05 at 21:44

Hi, Dorothy! Yes, you will have to tell your rodent story! I have a couple of my own to tell. :) I'll tell one here, as quickly as I can ~

It was an early morning in the fall, unusually cool, and my husband had walked from the house into the garage, opening the garage door to go out to the mailbox and retrieve the newspaper.

Not long afterwards, my daughters, 6 and 11, and I left for school. They attended school where I taught which was 25 miles away. I drove the first 15 miles with the girls barely awake and not very talkative. Then we came to a traffic light at which time I stopped and bent over to check something in my bag. My youngest very sleepily came out with, "Mama, what is that furry animal with the long tail crawling across our windshield?"

I jerked up and with horror saw - not a mouse, but a rat - crawling across the windshield! (We live in the country with fields on every side and horses on both sides. We have never seen a rat near our house, but this one had come into the garage and nestled into that recessed area where the windshield wipers rest. He didn't move until I stopped.) Just at that moment the light turned green. I was mortified, knowing that other drivers were seeing this spectacle and also was having to deal with daughters who were screaming and having to wonder myself if it could get in our car or not! And keep driving safely too...

I had a new cell phone and quickly called my husband who started laughing! I emphatically told him that it was not funny! He said, "Well, what would you like me to do about it?"

I replied, "Just tell me if there is a way for that rat to get in because if there is, I'm just telling you in advance that I am going to have a wreck!"

I kept driving and the rat moved across the windshield and turned the corner, crawling across the driver's window. I told my 11-year old in the back seat to keep her eye on it at all times to which she replied, "You've got to be kidding! I can't look at it!" So once it was out of my view, I didn't see where it went. My husband's only suggestion was to use the windshield wipers, but I didn't do that.

When we got to school (10 more miles that seemed an eternity), my 11-year old in the back seat bolted from the car, clearing about two feet without touching any part of the car as she jumped out. My 6-year old and I wasted no time getting out, either.

I found my trusted friend and custodian of the school and told him my plight. Bless his heart, he did his very best to not laugh at me, but I could tell it was hard. I asked if he would check out my car and make sure the rat was nowhere around. He assured me he would take care of it.

We never saw another rat, and as the old saying goes, "If we never see another one, it will be too soon!"

Well, so much for telling that story quickly! Your mention of rodents just brought it to my mind, Dorothy. Hope this one did not make you shiver too much!

Suzanne :)

Result number: 164

Message Number 189337

Re: dorsiflex and heel/nerve pain sole of foot View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 12/09/05 at 07:45

Sandy,
I've experienced what your describing and it's caused by the location of your gas pedal. In some cars the gas pedal is located to the extreme right causing the driver to actually turn their foot or stretch in an a right angle position. It's not a dramatic stretch but it is enough angle to the right to cause pulling and pain on the P.F.

My experience with it was in a rental car. My own car has the gas pedal closer to the center thus causing no right foot turn out.

Result number: 165

Message Number 189280

Re: Jen's ESWT View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 12/08/05 at 16:16

Dude.....

That's is truly a classic analogy!

-dW

Result number: 166

Message Number 188834

Re: Heel Pain View Thread
Posted by Barb on 12/03/05 at 08:36

I have type 2 diabetes but my doctor said my circulation was good & there was no reason that this shouldn't be healed. The scar in back burns with awful pain. Pain also in the heel in 2 places. I,m at wits end as what to do. See a different doctor soon.I have been a school bus driver for 25 years. They thought this might be part of my problem(25 years). When I had my operation was told that the bone chip was removed & sent to pathology. Medical reports show no pathlogy report for the bone. Why would this be sent to pathlogy or was that a lie?, Barb

Result number: 167

Message Number 187681

Are we all up on this??? View Thread
Posted by Ralph on 11/17/05 at 18:01

November 16, 2005

Being a Patient

Young, Assured and Playing Pharmacist to Friends
By AMY HARMON

Nathan Tylutki arrived late in New York, tired but eager to go out dancing. When his friend Katherine K. offered him the Ritalin she had inherited from someone who had stopped taking his prescription, he popped two pills and stayed out all night.

For the two college friends, now 25 and out in the working world, there was nothing remarkable about the transaction. A few weeks later, Katherine gave the tranquilizer Ativan to another friend who complained of feeling short of breath and panicky.

"Clear-cut anxiety disorder," Katherine decreed.

The Ativan came from a former colleague who had traded it to her for the Vicodin that Katherine's boyfriend had been prescribed by a dentist. The boyfriend did not mind, but he preferred that she not give away the Ambien she got from a doctor by exaggerating her sleeping problems. It helps him relax after a stressful day.

"I acquire quite a few medications and then dispense them to my friends as needed. I usually know what I'm talking about," said Katherine, who lives in Manhattan and who, like many other people interviewed for this article, did not want her last name used because of concerns that her behavior could get her in trouble with her employer, law enforcement authorities or at least her parents.

For a sizable group of people in their 20's and 30's, deciding on their own what drugs to take - in particular, stimulants, antidepressants and other psychiatric medications - is becoming the norm. Confident of their abilities and often skeptical of psychiatrists' expertise, they choose to rely on their own research and each other's experience in treating problems like depression, fatigue, anxiety or a lack of concentration. A medical degree, in their view, is useful, but not essential, and certainly not sufficient.

They trade unused prescription drugs, get medications without prescriptions from the Internet and, in some cases, lie to doctors to obtain medications that in their judgment they need.

A spokeswoman for the Drug Enforcement Administration says it is illegal to give prescription medication to another person, although it is questionable whether the offense would be prosecuted.

The behavior, drug abuse prevention experts say, is notably different from the use of drugs like marijuana or cocaine, or even the abuse of prescription painkillers, which is also on the rise. The goal for many young adults is not to get high but to feel better - less depressed, less stressed out, more focused, better rested. It is just that the easiest route to that end often seems to be medication for which they do not have a prescription.

Some seek to regulate every minor mood fluctuation, some want to enhance their performance at school or work, some simply want to find the best drug to treat a genuine mental illness. And patients say that many general practitioners, pressed for time and unfamiliar with the ever-growing inventory of psychiatric drugs, are happy to take their suggestions, so it pays to be informed.

Health officials say they worry that as prescription pills get passed around in small batches, information about risks and dosage are not included. Even careful self-medicators, they say, may not realize the harmful interaction that drugs can have when used together or may react unpredictably to a drug; Mr. Tylutki and Katherine each had a bad experience with a medication taken without a prescription.

But doctors and experts in drug abuse also say they are flummoxed about how to address the increasing casual misuse of prescription medications by young people for purposes other than getting high.

Carol Boyd, the former head of the Addiction Research Center at the University of Michigan, said medical professionals needed to find ways to evaluate these risks.

"Kids get messages about street drugs," Ms. Boyd said. "They know smoking crack is a bad deal. This country needs to have a serious conversation about both the marketing of prescription drugs and where we draw the boundaries between illegal use and misuse."

To some extent, the embrace by young adults of better living through chemistry is driven by familiarity. Unlike previous generations, they have for many years been taking drugs prescribed by doctors for depression, anxiety or attention deficit disorder.

Direct-to-consumer drug advertising, approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 1997, has for most of their adult lives sent the message that pills offer a cure for any ill. Which ones to take, many advertisements suggest, is largely a matter of personal choice.

"If a person is having a problem in life, someone who is 42 might not know where to go - 'Do I need acupuncture, do I need a new haircut, do I need to read Suze Orman?' " said Casey Greenfield, 32, a writer in Los Angeles, referring to the personal-finance guru. "Someone my age will be like, 'Do I need to switch from Paxil to Prozac?' "

For Ms. Greenfield, who could recite the pros and cons of every selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the market by the time she graduated from college, years of watching doctors try to find the right drug cocktails for her and for assorted friends has not bolstered faith in their expertise.

"I would never just do what the doctor told me because the person is a doctor," said Ms. Greenfield, who dictates to her doctors what to prescribe for her headaches and sleep problems, and sometimes gives her pills to friends. "I'm sure lots of patients don't know what they're talking about. But lots of doctors don't know what they're talking about either."

Prescriptions to treat attention deficit disorder in adults age 20 to 30 nearly tripled from 2000 to 2004, according to Medco, a prescription management company. Medications for sleeping disorders in the same age group showed a similar increase.

Antidepressants are now prescribed to as many as half of the college students seen at student health centers, according to a recent report in The New England Journal of Medicine, and increasing numbers of students fake the symptoms of depression or attention disorder to get prescriptions that they believe will give them an edge. Another study, published recently in The Journal of American College Health, found that 14 percent of students at a Midwestern liberal arts college reported borrowing or buying prescription stimulants from each other, and that 44 percent knew of someone who had.

"There's this increasingly widespread attitude that 'we are our own best pharmacists,' " said Bessie Oster, the director of Facts on Tap, a drug abuse prevention program for college students that has begun to focus on prescription drugs. "You'll take something, and if it's not quite right, you'll take a little more or a little less, and there's no notion that you need a doctor to do that."

Now, Going Online for Pills

The new crop of amateur pharmacists varies from those who have gotten prescriptions - after doing their own research and finding a doctor who agreed with them - to those who obtain pills through friends or through some online pharmacies that illegally dispense drugs without prescriptions.

"The mother's little helpers of the 1960's and 1970's are all available now on the Internet," said Catherine Wood, a clinical social worker in Evanston, Ill., who treated one young client who became addicted to Xanax after buying it online. "You don't have to go and steal a prescription pad anymore."

In dozens of interviews, via e-mail and in person, young people spoke of a sense of empowerment that comes from knowing what to prescribe for themselves, or at least where to turn to figure it out. They are as careful with themselves, they say, as any doctor would be with a patient.

"It's not like we're passing out Oxycontin, crushing it up and snorting it," said Katherine, who showed a reporter a stockpile that included stimulants, tranquilizers and sleeping pills. "I don't think it's unethical when I have the medication that someone clearly needs to make them feel better to give them a pill or two."

Besides, they say, they have grown up watching their psychiatrists mix and match drugs in a manner that sometimes seems arbitrary, and they feel an obligation to supervise. "I tried Zoloft because my doctor said, 'I've had a lot of success with Zoloft,' no other reason," said Laurie, 26, who says researching medications to treat her depressive disorder has become something of a compulsion. "It's insane. I feel like you have to be informed because you're controlling your brain."

When a new psychiatrist suggested Seraquil, Laurie, who works in film production and who did not want her last name used, refused it because it can lead to weight gain. When the doctor suggested Wellbutrin XL, she replied with a line from the commercial she had seen dozens of times on television: "It has a low risk of sexual side effects. I like that."

But before agreeing to take the drug, Laurie consulted several Internet sites and the latest edition of the Physicians' Desk Reference guide to prescription drugs at the Barnes & Noble bookstore in Union Square.

On a page of her notebook, she copied down the generic and brand names of seven alternatives. Effexor, she noted, helps with anxiety - a plus. But Wellbutrin suppresses appetite - even better.

At the weekly meetings of an "under-30" mood-disorder support group in New York that Laurie attends, the discussion inevitably turns to medication. Group members trade notes on side effects that, they complain, doctors often fail to inform them about. Some say they are increasingly suspicious of how pharmaceutical companies influence the drugs they are prescribed.

"Lamictal is the new rage," said one man who attended the group, "but in part that's because there's a big money interest in it. You have to do research on your own because the research provided to you is not based on an objective source of what may be best."

Recent reports that widely prescribed antidepressants could be responsible for suicidal thoughts or behavior in some adolescents have underscored for Laurie and other young adults how little is known about the risks of some drugs, and why different people respond to them differently.

Moreover, drugs widely billed as nonaddictive, like Paxil or Effexor, can cause withdrawal symptoms, which some patients say they only learned of from their friends or fellow sufferers.

"This view of psychology as a series of problems that can be solved with pills is relatively brand new," said Andrea Tone, a professor of the social history of medicine at McGill University. "It's more elastic, and more subjective, so it lends itself more to taking matters into our own hands."

To that end, it helps to have come of age with the Internet, which offers new possibilities for communication and commerce to those who want to supplement their knowledge or circumvent doctors.

Fluent in Psychopharmacology

People of all ages gather on public Internet forums to trade notes on "head meds," but participants say the conversations are dominated by a younger crowd for whom anonymous exchanges of highly personal information are second nature.

On patient-generated sites like CrazyBoards, fluency in the language of psychopharmacology is taken for granted. Dozens of drugs are referred to in passing by both brand name and generic, and no one is reticent about suggesting medications and dosage levels.

"Do you guys think that bumping up the dosage was a good idea, or should I have asked for a different drug?" someone who called herself Maggie asked earlier this month, saying she had told her doctor she wanted to double her daily intake of the antidepressant fluoxetine to 40 milligrams.

In another recent posting, a participant wrote that his supply of the beta blocker Inderal, acquired in Costa Rica, was running out. He uses the drug for panic attacks, he said, but he has not told his doctor about it. "What do I do/say to get her to prescribe me some?" he asked.

"CraZgirl," who said she was not currently taking any medications, received a resounding "yes" to her posting that asked, "If you wouldn't go on meds for yourself, is it reasonable to do it to keep your marriage intact?"

Still, for some young adults, consulting their peers leads to taking less medicine, not more. When Eric Wisch, 20, reported to an anonymous online group that he was having problems remembering things, several members suggested that he stop taking Risperdal, one of four medications in a cocktail that had been mixed different ways by different doctors.

"I decided to cut back," said Mr. Wisch, a sophomore at the University of Rochester who runs www.thebipolarblog.com, where he posts his thoughts on medications and other subjects. "And I'm doing better." Despite frequent admonitions on all the sites to "check with your Pdoc," an abbreviation for psychiatrist, there are also plenty of tips on how to get medications without a prescription.

"I know I shouldn't order drugs online," one participant wrote in a Sept. 26 posting on the Psycho-babble discussion group. "But I've been suffering with insomnia and my Pdoc isn't keen on sleep aids."

What should he do, the poster wanted to know, after an order he placed with an online pharmacy that promised to provide sleeping pills without a prescription failed to deliver?

Another regular participant, known as "med-empowered," replied that the poster was out of luck, and went on to suggest a private e-mail exchange: "I think I know some sites where you could post your experience and also get info about more reliable sites."

For a hefty markup, dozens of Web sites fill orders for drugs, no prescription required, though to do so is not legal. Instead, customers are asked to fill out a form describing themselves and their symptoms, often with all the right boxes helpfully pre-checked.

Erin, 26, a slender hair stylist, remembers laughing to herself as she listed her weight as 250 pounds to order Adipex, a diet pill, for $113. One recent night, she took an Adipex to stay up cleaning her house, followed by a Xanax when she needed to sleep.

Like many other self-medicators, Erin, who has been on and off antidepressants and sleeping pills since she was in high school, has considered weaning herself from the pills. She wishes she had opted for chamomile tea instead of the Xanax when she wanted to sleep.

"I feel like I have been so programmed to think, 'If I feel like this then I should take this pill,' " she said. "I hate that."

But the problem with the tea, she said, is the same one she faces when she is coloring hair: "It's not predictable. I know how these drugs are going to affect me. I don't know if the chamomile tea will work."

Online pharmacies are not the only way for determined self-prescribers to get their pills. Suffering from mood swings a decade after his illness was diagnosed as bipolar disorder, Rich R., 31, heard in an online discussion group about an antidepressant not available in the United States. A contractor in the Midwest, Rich scanned an old prescription into his computer, rearranged the information and faxed it to pharmacies in Canada to get the drug.

"My initial experience with physicians who are supposed to be experts in the field was disappointing," Rich said. "So I concluded I can do things better than they can."

Even for psychiatrists, patients say, the practice of prescribing psychotropic drugs is often hit and miss. New drugs for depression, anxiety and other problems proliferate. Stimulants like Adderall are frequently prescribed "as needed." Research has found that antidepressants affect different patients differently, so many try several drugs before finding one that helps. And in many cases, getting doctors to prescribe antidepressants, sleeping pills or other psychiatric medications is far from difficult, patients say.

The result is a surplus of half-empty pill bottles that provides a storehouse for those who wish to play pharmacist for their friends.

The rules of the CrazyBoards Web site prohibit participants from openly offering or soliciting pharmaceuticals. But it is standard practice for people who visit the site to complain, tongue-in-cheek, that they simply "don't know what to do" with their leftovers.

The rest takes place by private e-mail. Sometimes, the person requesting the drugs already has a prescription, but because the medications are so expensive, receiving them free from other people has its merits.

A Post-Hurricane Care Package

Dan Todd, marooned in Covington, La., after Hurricane Katrina, said he would be forever grateful to a woman in New Hampshire who organized a donation drive for him among the site's regular participants.

Within two days of posting a message saying that he had run out of his medications, he received several care packages of assorted mood stabilizers and anti-anxiety drugs, including Wellbutrin, Klonopin, Trileptal, Cymbalta and Neurontin.

"I had to drive down to meet the FedEx driver because his truck couldn't get past the trees on part of the main highway," said Mr. Todd, 58. "I had tears in my eyes when I got those packages."

It doesn't always work out so well. When Katherine took a Xanax to ease her anxiety before a gynecologist appointment, she found that she could not keep her eyes open. She had traded a friend for the blue oval pill and she had no idea what the dosage was.

An Adderall given to her by another friend, she said, "did weird things to me." And Mr. Tylutki, who took the Ritalin she offered one weekend last fall, began a downward spiral soon after.

"I completely regretted and felt really guilty about it," Katherine said.

Taking Katherine's pills with him when he returned to Minneapolis, Mr. Tylutki took several a day while pursuing a nursing degree and working full time. Like many other students, he found Ritalin a useful study aid. One night, he read a book, lay down to sleep, wrote the paper in his head, got up, wrote it down, and received an A-minus.

But he also began using cocaine and drinking too much alcohol. A few months ago, Mr. Tylutki took a break from school. He flushed the Ritalin down the toilet and stopped taking all drugs, including the Prozac that he had asked a doctor for when he began feeling down.

"I kind of made it seem like I needed it," Mr. Tylutki said, referring to what he told the doctor. "Now I think I was just lacking sleep."

Result number: 168

Message Number 186762

Re: Question for Steve W - Rec for ESWT Provider in Houston, TX View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 11/05/05 at 06:03

Steve,

Have you thought of a name for this device?

LMAO!!

-dW

Result number: 169

Message Number 186761

Re: United Healthcare-ESWT achilles coverage View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 11/05/05 at 06:00

I agree Dr. Z. A supportive Doc will be crucial in getting your monies returned. Many Doc's offices will just give up and move on instead of assisting you with this "fight."

Because of the 28899 code, it can create some confusion at UHC as to what the procedure really is. Sometimes that can work for or against you. Regardless of what device is used, you will want to have a current study on AT, a letter of medical neccessity from your doctor, as well as documentation from your employer employer supporting this treatment that states this will get you back to work much quicker than the brutal surgical alternative.

When contacting UHC you'll find that many of the customer service people are not even familiar with the plantar fascia shockwave procedure let alone the achilles procedure. Don't hesitate to hang up on a customer service person and call back and get another one if you're not getting anywhere at first. I wish I could give you a step by step guide to getting paid back, but each case follows a different path. All I can tell you is that it will be a long and frustrating road at times, but some people have managed to do it, so it's not totally hopeless.

It is my opinion, that if this procedure gets you back to work in a week versus what can months after surgery, then you have already made your money back in time off work work.

Good Luck Erin. Get Well.

-dW

Result number: 170

Message Number 186721

Re: United Healthcare-ESWT achilles coverage View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 11/04/05 at 12:21

Erin,

If you have a self-funded UHC HealthCare plan it is POSSIBLE though RARE, but it can be approved. Your best bet would be to get your Human Resources department involved in the review process.

I know of patients who have paid out of their own pocket and not waited for months of medical review, and then fought with UHC after the claim has been filed and been able to retrieve their monies. It will take numerous phone calls on your part and they will not cave easily on this, but it has been done in the past on occaision. It may take 6 months to a year afterwards, but if it were my achilles, it would be well worth the extra effort.

-DW

Result number: 171

Message Number 186022

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by John H on 10/28/05 at 11:22

Kathy I look like Mr August or Vince in my drivers license photo. On my Credit Card Photo the bank lets you email the photo you want on your credit card. I thought about using Brad Pitt but decided on a john h circa age 35.

Result number: 172

Message Number 186004

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 10/28/05 at 10:12


Vince,

My husband said the same thing about my never being happy with my license photo! :)

Result number: 173

Message Number 185922

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by vince on 10/27/05 at 16:26

I thought my wife looked lovely on her license but as usual she was unhappy wih her picture.

Result number: 174

Message Number 185898

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 10/27/05 at 10:55


That's great, Richard! And I'm glad you're still smiling, Linda! :)

Result number: 175

Message Number 185870

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by LindaV on 10/27/05 at 06:51

got me! (and i fell for this before...) first time I have smiled since Wilma took out half of south florida...

Result number: 176

Message Number 185782

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by Richard, C.Ped on 10/26/05 at 08:26

Looks like I should have shaved before that picture was taken.

Result number: 177

Message Number 185751

Re: Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by marie on 10/25/05 at 20:01

They have an old picture of me on a drivers license from 1979. What a hoot.

marie

Result number: 178

Message Number 185694

Block Your Drivers Licence View Thread
Posted by Richard, C.Ped on 10/25/05 at 11:34

It is just like the national do not call list. Type in your name, state and city to block your licence from view.
http://www.license.shorturl.com/

Result number: 179

Message Number 185399

To Gerri View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 10/22/05 at 09:58



Hi Gerri,

I was very remiss about congratulating you on your new independence! I'm so happy that you have a new car and can get out and about! You've come a long way in sixteen months and I'm so pleased for you! I'm sure there were days you were discouraged but your story is one that needs to be told so that everyone knows that things will improve.

What kind of car did you get? There have been days that my hands and feet hurt so much that I would just hop into the car and take a ride into the country and it would take my mind off my pain. And there was an ulterior motive, too, because I didn't want to lose my skill as a driver. Well, I suppose some people would say my skills are lacking in that I tend to brake at a stop sign way too late. At least that's what they say! I think I do it just fine!

Seriously, when I took Driver Ed back in the old days when everyone didn't have to be careful about being politically correct, my instructor said that I had the "heaviest foot of any woman he'd ever taught to drive." I really don't go much over the speed limit and I'm especially careful in residential areas but I guess I do have a habit of not slowing down gradually. I've made a conscious effort to change the habit but I haven't succeeded.

May you have many years of safe driving ahead of you in your new car and thank you for the kind words!

Result number: 180

Message Number 185356

Re: Loop Hole View Thread
Posted by Ed Davis, DPM on 10/21/05 at 16:37

elvis:
No question that the third party situation is a mess. They are not popular in CA but Medical Savings Accounts or Health Saving Accounts (HSAs) can really save the day becasue it puts the patient in the drivers seat. I have a patient who just opted for low energy since he was paying out of his HSA.
Ed

Result number: 181

Message Number 185240

Re: George Clooney, pain and assorted subjects! View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 10/20/05 at 10:16


No, John. I don't know if he's religious or not but I know for a fact that he doesn't belong to the Church of Scientology. He seems like such a down-to-earth nice guy that I keep thinking I'll read something negative about him but I never have.

His father is Nick Clooney who was a well-known newsman and his aunt was Rosemary. Did you ever watch St. Elsewhere in which he played a doctor? It was interesting, when Rosemary guest starred in a few espisodes, to think that the two were related. He mentioned, in the interview I listened to, that he was her driver when he was in his twenties, so his muscial taste, at that age, went from Led Zepplin to Frank Sinatra. She was one of the relatives who had a serious addicition to painkillers as did his father, I believe. He didn't say who it was in his family who had drug addictions but Rosemary Clooney's breakdown has been well documented.

Result number: 182

Message Number 183808

Re: Is this what you mean? View Thread
Posted by liboralis on 9/29/05 at 19:24

Jewish World Review Sept. 28, 2005 / 24 Elul, 5765

Speak up America! Sheehan has spent her sympathy

By Ed Koch









http://www.JewishWorldReview.com (PIPE) Cindy Sheehan, whose son Casey was killed in action in Iraq on April 4, 2004, has become the face of the anti-war movement in the United States. While her grief is understandable, her rhetoric is outrageous.


As the mother of a son killed in battle in Iraq, she originally struck a sympathetic chord, whether you supported the war in Iraq or opposed it. One cannot help but empathize with the agony of a bereaved mother. But that has changed over the months, and I believe that many Americans who viewed her with sympathy no longer do so.


Many Americans, myself included, now see her as a person who has come to enjoy the celebratory status accorded to her by the radicals on the extreme left who see America as the outlaw of the world. These radicals are not content to be constructive critics. They are bent on destroying this country.


Some of them want to turn America into a radical socialist state. Others hope to create a utopia. But regardless of their agendas, how can Cindy Sheehan's supporters defend her shameful statement, "This country is not worth dying for."


While we recognize the U.S. is far from perfect, we are still head and shoulders above most other countries in the world in every respect. We remain the place where almost all others, given the chance, want to come to live. We continue to be the land of opportunity. We are the world's leading economy.


Yes, there is far too great a difference between the incomes of the rich and the poor. Yes, we haven't provided universal medical care as a matter of right for all of our citizens. Yes, minorities still suffer from discrimination socially, in housing, jobs and education. But we have a political system that for more than 200 years has allowed the electorate to work its will through regularly held elections. The government follows the will of the people, or it will no longer stay in power..


Those who rail against the United States have simply failed to sell their message to the public at large. They keep losing elections, local as well as national. Rather than broadening their appeal, they have narrowed it.


I supported and still support the war in Iraq, because our Congress and President had every right to rely on the advice of the CIA that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. On Sunday, September 25, 2005, Tim Russert of Meet The Press, summed up the situation prevailing before the war, saying, "…post September 11th, there was a fear of terrorism, an inability to know whether there were weapons of mass destruction by the public or by the media. George W. Bush said there were. Bill and Hillary Clinton said there were. The Russians, French and Germans, who opposed the war, said there were. Hans Blix of the UN said there were."


Iraq had fought an eight-year war against Iran resulting in a million casualties, using poison gas against the Kurds, who were citizens of Iraq, and against the Iranian army. Yes, since the 2003 invasion, we have not found any present supplies of WMD. Nevertheless, based on advice from CIA counterparts advising every member nation of the United Nations Security Council, the Security Council, including Syria, adopted Resolution 1441 unanimously, finding Iraq had weapons of mass destruction for which it had not accounted and advising Iraq that failure to account was cause for war. Iraq refused to account for them to the U.N. We and our allies were right to invade, notwithstanding that other countries, terrified by the prospect of terrorism against them and tempted by corruption at the UN masterminded by Saddam Hussein through the Oil-For-Food program and lucrative vendor contracts with Hussein's regime, did not join us.


As I have often stated, we have accomplished our original goal to prevent Iraq from threatening us or its regional neighbors. We should declare victory and get out. Yes, there probably will be a civil war among the Kurds, Sunni and Shia. If the UN — which is still under a cloud because of the "Oil for Food" scandal — decides to take a military role in Iraq to stop the civil war, we can join them at that time. Having accomplished our original mission, we should no longer be fulfilling the obligations of other countries, such as Germany and France which have had a free ride to date. Even in Afghanistan, the latter NATO allies, do not participate in combat duty, leaving that and the ensuing casualties for the U.S. to bear.


President George W. Bush summed up his views on Iraq when he stated, "When the Iraqi army stands up, the American Army will stand down." I have low expectations of that happening in the immediate future. The estimates provided by the Bush administration on our getting out range from two to ten years. I do not believe we should wait that long, because of the casualties that would be involved. We should get out now, leaving the UN in charge. Although I believe that we should leave Iraq, I do not accept Sheehan's outrageous statements.


Sheehan has joined those who rail against Israel, labeling Israel as the culprit with her comment, "You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine and the terrorism will stop." Is that why Sunni and other terrorists have intentionally killed thousands of Shia civilians, labeling them, according to al-Zarkawi, infidels? Is that why Arab fundamentalists have declared war against all Christians and Jews?


According to Wikipedia, on August 15, 2005, on the Chris Matthews Show, Sheehan said, "she would not have responded differently to her son's death had he died in Afghanistan rather than in Iraq. Sheehan argued that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was 'almost the same thing as the Iraq war.'" Remember, the UN Security Council authorized the invasion of Afghanistan and the war against the Taliban government.


Sheehan's personal attacks on President Bush include comments in a speech on April 27, 2005, when she said, "We are not waging a war on terror in this country. We're waging a war of terror. The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush." Shameful.


According to Wikipedia, Sheehan wrote, "Casey was killed in the Global War of Terrorism waged on the world and its own citizens by the biggest terrorist outfit in the world: George and his destructive neo-con cabal."


In an interview on CBS, Sheehan referred to the foreign insurgents coming into Iraq, who are condemned as terrorists even by other Arab countries, as well as the U.S. and Great Britain, as "freedom fighters." On September 16, 2005, she said, "Pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq." On the one hand, she and her supporters urge that the National Guard be brought back from Iraq to be used in New Orleans, and on the other hand, she condemns their use there now.


In addressing a veterans' group on August 5, 2005, she demeaned herself with the use of truly outrageous remarks hurled at the President, describing him as "a lying bastard," "that jerk," "that filth spewer and war monger," and "that evil maniac."


Sheehan appeared this past weekend in Washington, D.C., leading the parade in a picture captured by the media that included Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond and Al Sharpton.


On Monday of this week, while Sheehan and her supporters were in Washington protesting at the White House against the presence of U.S. military forces in Iraq — those forces there at the request of the democratically elected Iraqi government — according to The New York Times, "Armed men dressed as police officers burst into a primary school in a town south of Baghdad on Monday, rounded up five Shiite teachers and their driver, marched them to an empty classroom and killed them, a police official said." Sheehan believes them to be "freedom fighters."


Of course, Sheehan has the right to state her opinion in a country she believes shouldn't be defended. We who disagree with her statements, we who believe this country deserves our thanks, love and willingness to defend it, also have the right to express our views. Speak up, America.

Result number: 183

Message Number 183784

Re: Paris View Thread
Posted by John H on 9/29/05 at 08:57

It seems to have gone up Judy dear since I was last there. Of course, I got the military discount. You also get a nice George V terry cloth robe and bedroom slippers. I do remember a lot of high end cars such as Ferrari's around there with drivers and at the time coffee was $2.00 a cup which in the late 50's was a little steep for a Lieutenant. Anyway, drop by there and have a cup of coffee if nothing else it is worth the visit. People watching there is interesting also. There was a well know fashion designer near there and one day I wondered in as they had one of those model shows such as you see on TV. I sat down just like I belonged there and enjoyed the show. Not sure how I got past the door guards as it was by invitation. I guess I just acted liked I belonged there.

I noticed the hotel I stayed at in Hawaii (Kahala Hilton) on several occasions had gone up in rate to around $600-$700 a night. It was around $200 when I stayed there in the 60's and 70's. It sure is no Motel 6.

I think I posted this once before. One night late I had landed in London and was having a problem finding a room. I was at the desk at this very nice hotel and as I turned to leave the Manger stopped me and said that the Commander of NATO had a luxury suite in this hotel and had left instructions if some military person was ever having trouble finding accomodations to give him his suite for free. Lucky me and what a suite with balcony overlooking London. Looked like something Donald Trump would have.

Result number: 184

Message Number 182750

Re: Uhhhhhh Clinton supported Welfare Reform View Thread
Posted by marie on 9/12/05 at 09:44

It has helped a great deal. Not the complete answer though. I very much support Welfare Reform......although it is largely a Republican supported agenda. I guess that's what makes me closer to a moderate. States do have differing guidelines. There are abuses in every walk of life.......insurance, business, politics etc. where people abuse the system. My concern is for those who are not interested in abusing the system. You cannot punish everyone because a few disrupt and abuse the system. I don't think it would sit well with parents if I made the entire class stay after school in detention because a few chose to misbehave. The school phone would be ringing like crazy! Welfare Programs should put a larger effort into finding those who abuse the system and cut off their aid.

The real question for me is that all Americans deserve the opportunity to evacuate a disaster zone. People in NOLA where not even allowed to cross the bridge on foot. Nagin did allocate school busses for evacuation but could not get bus drivers. And we all know what happened to the buses as the water level continued to rise. Most school bus drivers are women and all were afraid to drive a bus into NOLA without National Guardsmen at their side. Actually I feel the National Guard should be granted authority to use and drive school buses for evacuation. That is a major change that should occur. Thank God for the governor of Arkansas. He was told he could not cross state lines with the school buses. He ignored the order and sent them because his conscience and moral obligation to his fellow man over ruled the government. Alot of the buses at the dome were from Arkansas.

Result number: 185

Message Number 182625

Re: Global warming means the future will be full of just this kind of horror. View Thread
Posted by JudyS on 9/10/05 at 23:24

Regarding automobiles/SUVs/west coast drivers.........

We are obviously a society dependant on our autos. But it is not quite correct to assume that the use of autos is the primary problem with oil/gas cosumption.

Whether or not one drives a small Honda, a medium-sized SUV, a Hummer or a Hybrid doesn't really matter. EVERY single facet of our society depends on oil. From electricity to air travel to manufacturing to whatever.

It is frustrating that many people focus on or blame the use of autos for egregious consumption of oil. Autos are only a part of the whole. For instance, why would an individual be motivated to stop driving a larger, safer auto when the city of Las Vegas burns unholy amounts of electricity to keep itself in bright lights?

And about those west coast drivers Ed mentioned. Obviously Ed and I live on different west coasts because, while it's quite true that lots of folks use their cars a lot (just like most of the rest of the country), there are also lots of folks who, because of the temperate climate, choose to use their feet or their bicycles to get where they're going - unlike much of the rest of the country.

Result number: 186

Message Number 182506

Re: On FEMA View Thread
Posted by marie on 9/09/05 at 18:18

I read that earlier today. What a mess. It would be like putting me in charge of a national magazine and all I have done is a little blogging. I do wonder why the response in FL when Hurricane Anrew hit was so well organized and managed. I know that Blanco made a delay but once she said ok nothing happened for days. I can't help but wonder what the heck was different this time.......aside from the fact is was a larger operation. Was it that they didn't realize that only 1 in 10 black people hav access to a vehicle in LA. When did someone come up with the idea of using school busses? Before or after the fact? 500 school buses = 500 bus drivers on a weekend when they themselves were evacuating. Not to mention insurance issues........all of this should have been part of an emergency plan. Can National Guardsman drive the buses......can the state pick up the insurance costs for bus use in this type of scenerio. Heck we couldn't even bus 52 students to the funeral of a classmate just 8 miles away. I hate insurance companies. All this stuff comes up after the fact and that's why there should be an independent investigation......including the hiring practices of any politician.

Result number: 187

Message Number 182420

Re: Journey to the New Orleans area View Thread
Posted by Carole C in NOLA on 9/08/05 at 21:17

Bev,

I can see you have a lot of questions! Here are some answers and info about Frank and me:

* Frank is a sixth generation New Orleanian and inherited a house about a mile and a half from mine, in Metairie (a suburb of New Orleans).

* He is a contract engineer. He is working in Alabama right now and rents a trailer there, where we have both been staying since the hurricane.

* Before Katrina, he drove from Alabama to New Orleans on all but two weekends in the last year and a half, to see me and his family. Officially he lives in Louisiana; his car has Louisiana plates, he has a Louisiana driver's license, and so on. But he works in Alabama for the time being.

* We have no problem getting money from our banks, and I access mine online. He can't any more, but they have a branch locally in Alabama.

* He has no problem with pay since he works here in Alabama. So, he is going in to work every day.

* I have no problem with pay (so far) since I work for the federal government and they are still paying me. My agency has given me a verbal assurance only that my pay will continue past the 12th. I saw a news story somewhere that said all federal employees would be paid for the duration, so probably I will be fine.

* I don't think I qualify for any assistance, since I found a free place to stay with Frank, rather than going to a big shelter like the Astrodome and since my house wasn't damaged. However, I have not yet exhausted my savings and my credit is good, so I am not going to be without the basics like food and shelter.

I forgot to tell everyone that when I went back, I GOT MY BIRKENSTOCKS!! I now have my Floridas, Granadas, Fuldas, and Arizonas. Bless your hearts, everyone, for your kind offers to send me some. But now I have my own.

Thanks for caring, Bev!

Carole C

Result number: 188

Message Number 182366

As far as I can tell their were 3 areas of failure. View Thread
Posted by marie on 9/08/05 at 15:52

I liked the the one were conservatives were trying to make folks think liberals were blaming Bush for the hurricane. Duhhh! That is the dumbest spin I have ever heard in my life. How stupid do they think the average American is? Can you guys believe these people are from our country?

Keith Olberman's Time Line: http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Timeline-Katrina.wmv

Daily Show: "Meet The F***kers"
http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/headlines/index.jhtml

NOLA should have moved all modes of transportation to higher ground before Katrina hit. Now it would have been a little difficult finding that many bus drivers on a weekend after people had been told to leave the city but I have to wonder if they tried.

Blanco should have made more timely decisions.

Bush should have got off his duff and gone to work. Actually his behavior doesn't stun me a bit. he has been a walking blunder since he took office.Below is the timeline complete with functioning links.
They cried for help but no one came.

Friday, August 26

GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: [Office of the Governor]

GULF COAST STATES REQUEST TROOP ASSISTANCE FROM PENTAGON: At a 9/1 press conference, Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, commander, Joint Task Force Katrina, said that the Gulf States began the process of requesting additional forces on Friday, 8/26. [DOD]

Saturday, August 27

5AM KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE [CNN]

GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. [Office of the Governor]

FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. [White House]

Sunday, August 28

2AM KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE [CNN]

7AM KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE [CNN]

MORNING LOUISIANA NEWSPAPER SIGNALS LEVEES MAY GIVE: Forecasters Fear Levees Will Not Hold Katrina: Forecasters feared Sunday afternoon that storm driven waters will lap over the New Orleans levees when monster Hurricane Katrina pushes past the Crescent City tomorrow. [Lafayette Daily Advertiser]

9:30 AM MAYOR NAGIN ISSUES FIRST EVER MANDATORY EVACUATION OF NEW ORLEANS: We are facing the storm most of us have feared, said Nagin. This is going to be an unprecedented event. [Times-Picayune]

4PM NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ISSUES SPECIAL HURRICANE WARNING: In the event of a category 4 or 5 hit, Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps longer. At least one-half of well-constructed homes will have roof and wall failure. All gabled roofs will fail, leaving those homes severely damaged or destroyed. Power outages will last for weeks. Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards. [National Weather Service]

AFTERNOON BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center: We were briefing them way before landfall. It is not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped. [Times-Picayune; St. Petersburg Times]

LATE PM REPORTS OF WATER TOPPLING OVER LEVEE: Waves crashed atop the exercise path on the Lake Pontchartrain levee in Kenner early Monday as Katrina churned closer. [Times-Picayune]

APPROXIMATELY 30,000 EVACUEES GATHER AT SUPERDOME WITH ROUGHLY 36 HOURS WORTH OF FOOD [Times-Picayune]

Monday, August 29

7AM KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE [CNN]

8AM MAYOR NAGIN REPORTS THAT WATER IS FLOWING OVER LEVEE: I have gotten reports this morning that there is already water coming over some of the levee systems. In the lower ninth ward, we have had one of our pumping stations to stop operating, so we will have significant flooding, it is just a matter of how much. [NBC’s Today Show]

MORNING BUSH CALLS SECRETARY CHERTOFF TO DISCUSS IMMIGRATION: I spoke to Mike Chertoff today he is the head of the Department of Homeland Security. I knew people would want me to discuss this issue [immigration], so we got us an airplane on a telephone on Air Force One, so I called him. I said, are you working with the governor? He said, you bet we are. [White House]

MORNING BUSH SHARES BIRTHDAY CAKE PHOTO OP WITH SEN. JOHN MCCAIN [White House]

11AM BUSH VISITS ARIZONA RESORT TO PROMOTE MEDICARE DRUG BENEFIT: This new bill I signed says, if you are a senior and you like the way things are today, you are in good shape, do not change. But, by the way, there is a lot of different options for you. And we are here to talk about what that means to our seniors. [White House]

LATE MORNING LEVEE BREACHED: A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new hurricane proof Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina s fiercest winds were well north. [Times-Picayune]

11:30AM MICHAEL BROWN FINALLY REQUESTS THAT DHS DISPATCH 1,000 EMPLOYEES TO REGION, GIVES THEM TWO DAYS TO ARRIVE: Brown s memo to Chertoff described Katrina as this near catastrophic event but otherwise lacked any urgent language. The memo politely ended, Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities. [AP]

2PM BUSH TRAVELS TO CALIFORNIA SENIOR CENTER TO DISCUSS MEDICARE DRUG BENEFIT: We have got some folks up here who are concerned about their Social Security or Medicare. Joan Geist is with us. I could tell she was looking at me when I first walked in the room to meet her, she was wondering whether or not old George W. is going to take away her Social Security check. [White House]

9PM RUMSFELD ATTENDS SAN DIEGO PADRES BASEBALL GAME: Rumsfeld joined Padres President John Moores in the owner s box at Petco Park. [Editor & Publisher]

Tuesday, August 30

9AM BUSH SPEAKS ON IRAQ AT NAVAL BASE CORONADO [White House]

MIDDAY CHERTOFF FINALLY BECOMES AWARE THAT LEVEE HAS FAILED: It was on Tuesday that the levee may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday that the levee started to break. And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city. [Meet the Press, 9/4/05]

PENTAGON CLAIMS THERE ARE ENOUGH NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS IN REGION: Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs. [WWL-TV]

MASS LOOTING REPORTED, SECURITY SHORTAGE CITED: The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked, Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. We are using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops. [AP]

U.S.S. BATAAN SITS OFF SHORE, VIRTUALLY UNUSED: The USS Bataan, a 844-foot ship designed to dispatch Marines in amphibious assaults, has helicopters, doctors, hospital beds, food and water. It also can make its own water, up to 100,000 gallons a day. And it just happened to be in the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina came roaring ashore. The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents. But now the Bataan s hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty. [Chicago Tribune]

3PM PRESIDENT BUSH PLAYS GUITAR WITH COUNTRY SINGER MARK WILLIS [AP]

BUSH RETURNS TO CRAWFORD FOR FINAL NIGHT OF VACATION [AP]

Wednesday, August 31

TENS OF THOUSANDS TRAPPED IN SUPERDOME; CONDITIONS DETERIORATE: A 2 year old girl slept in a pool of urine. Crack vials littered a restroom. Blood stained the walls next to vending machines smashed by teenagers. We pee on the floor. We are like animals, said Taffany Smith, 25, as she cradled her 3 week-old son, Terry. By Wednesday, it had degenerated into horror. At least two people, including a child, have been raped. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for. There is no sanitation. The stench is overwhelming. [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/05]

PRESIDENT BUSH FINALLY ORGANIZES TASK FORCE TO COORDINATE FEDERAL RESPONSE: Bush says on Tuesday he will fly to Washington to begin work with a task force that will coordinate the work of 14 federal agencies involved in the relief effort. [New York Times, 8/31/05]

JEFFERSON PARISH EMERGENCY DIRECTOR SAYS FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY GONE: Director Walter Maestri: FEMA and national agencies not delivering the help nearly as fast as it is needed. [WWL-TV]

80,000 BELIEVED STRANDED IN NEW ORLEANS: Former Mayor Sidney Barthelemy estimated 80,000 were trapped in the flooded city and urged President Bush to send more troops. [Reuters]

3,000 STRANDED AT CONVENTION CENTER WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER: With 3,000 or more evacuees stranded at the convention center and with no apparent contingency plan or authority to deal with them collecting a body was no one s priority. Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions. [Times-Picayune]

5PM BUSH GIVES FIRST MAJOR ADDRESS ON KATRINA: Nothing about the president s demeanor which seemed casual to the point of carelessness suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis. [New York Times]

8:00PM CONDOLEEZZA RICE TAKES IN A BROADWAY SHOW: On Wednesday night, Secretary Rice was booed by some audience members at Spamalot!, the Monty Python musical at the Shubert, when the lights went up after the performance.[New York Post, 9/2/05]

9PM FEMA DIRECTOR BROWN CLAIMS SURPRISE OVER SIZE OF STORM: I must say, this storm is much much bigger than anyone expected. [CNN]

Thursday, September 1

8AM BUSH CLAIMS NO ONE EXPECTED LEVEES TO BREAK: I do not think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. [Washington Post]

CONDOLEEZZA RICE VISITS U.S. OPEN: Rice, [in New York] on three days vacation to shop and see the U.S. Open, hitting some balls with retired champ Monica Seles at the Indoor Tennis Club at Grand Central. [New York Post]

STILL NO COMMAND AND CONTROL ESTABLISHED: Terry Ebbert, New Orleans Homeland Security Director: This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can’t bail out the city of New Orleans. [Fox News]

2PM MAYOR NAGIN ISSUES DESPERATE SOS TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT: This is a desperate SOS. Right now we are out of resources at the convention centre and do not anticipate enough buses. We need buses. Currently the convention centre is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies. [Guardian, 9/2/05]

2PM MICHAEL BROWN CLAIMS NOT TO HAVE HEARD OF REPORTS OF VIOLENCE: I have had no reports of unrest, if the connotation of the word unrest means that people are beginning to riot, or you know, they are banging on walls and screaming and hollering or burning tires or whatever. I have had no reports of that. [CNN]

NEW ORLEANS DESCEND[S] INTO ANARCHY: Storm victims were raped and beaten, fights and fires broke out, corpses lay out in the open, and rescue helicopters and law enforcement officers were shot at as flooded-out New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday. This is a desperate SOS, the mayor said. [AP]

CONDOLEEZZA RICE GOES SHOE SHOPPING: Just moments ago at the Ferragamo on 5th Avenue, Condoleeza Rice was seen spending several thousands of dollars on some nice, new shoes (we have confirmed this, so her new heels will surely get coverage from the WaPos Robin Givhan A fellow shopper), unable to fathom the absurdity of Rice s timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly shouted, How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless! [Gawker]

MICHAEL BROWN FINALLY LEARNS OF EVACUEES IN CONVENTION CENTER: We learned about that (Thursday), so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water and medical care that they need. [CNN]

Friday, September 2

ROVE-LED CAMPAIGN TO BLAME LOCAL OFFICIALS BEGINS: Under the command of President Bush s two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan to contain the political damage from the administration s response to Hurricane Katrina. President Bush s comments from the Rose Garden Friday morning formed the start of this campaign. [New York Times, 9/5/05]

9:35AM BUSH PRAISES MICHAEL BROWN: Brownie, you are doing a heck of a job. [White House, 9/2/05]

10 AM PRESIDENT BUSH STAGES PHOTO-OP BRIEFING: Coast Guard helicopters and crew diverted to act as backdrop for President Bush s photo-op.

BUSH VISIT GROUNDS FOOD AID: Three tons of food ready for delivery by air to refugees in St. Bernard Parish and on Algiers Point sat on the Crescent City Connection bridge Friday afternoon as air traffic was halted because of President Bush s visit to New Orleans, officials said. [Times-Picayune]

LEVEE REPAIR WORK ORCHESTRATED FOR PRESIDENT S VISIT: Sen. Mary Landrieu, 9/3: Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. [Sen. Mary Landrieu]

BUSH USES 50 FIREFIGHTERS AS PROPS IN DISASTER AREA PHOTO-OP: A group of 1,000 firefighters convened in Atlanta to volunteer with the Katrina relief efforts. Of those, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew s first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.[Salt Lake Tribune; Reuters]

3PM BUSH SATISFIED WITH THE RESPONSE: I am satisfied with the response. I am not satisfied with all the results. [AP]

Saturday, September 3

SENIOR BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL LIES TO WASHINGTON POST, CLAIMS GOV. BLANCO NEVER DECLARED STATE OF EMERGENCY: The Post reported in their Sunday edition As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said. They were forced to issue a correction hours later. [Washington Post, 9/4/05]

9AM BUSH BLAMES STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS: [T]he magnitude of responding to a crisis over a disaster area that is larger than the size of Great Britain has created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities. The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need. [White House, 9/3


Those who blindly defend the lack of RESPONSE (key word) by the federal government will carry the burdon of the lost souls with them to the next world. Those who were up in arms about Terry Shciavo but not about the lack of RESPONSE by the federal government to Katrina will carry well over 20,000 souls the like of Terry Schiavo to the next life. What ugly monster has crawled into their hearts to refrain from holding all parties responisble accept their beloved Republicans?

Result number: 189

Message Number 182261

Can't blame Bush View Thread
Posted by scott r on 9/07/05 at 20:39

I can blame bush for a lot of things, but not the mess in N.O. Disaster relief is a huge, complex task. Red Cross, FEMA, insurance comanies, churches, individuals, power companies, telephone companies, gas companies, governors, mayors, etc....they all know the hurricane routine here in the South. We do not need or care what the president is doing or thinks or says as long as he signs those little pieces of papers we send to his desk, which Bush did very quickly. Bush isn't responsible for N.O. city releasing prisoners or for the trashy culture that has always pervaded N.O. He isn't responsible for a city being built 20 feet below sea level or for so many people choosing to stay there to spite a hurricane. He isn't to blame for people shooting at drivers, boats, helicopters, and firefighters. He isn't to blame for a state that didn't have an adequate evacuation plan for the poor for an obvious disaster that was described years before in many sources like national geographic. Blame him for the Iraq, absolutely. He has almost zero responsibility for N.O.

Result number: 190

Message Number 181633

Plan for Peace View Thread
Posted by LindaV on 9/01/05 at 18:39

The following is attributed to Robin Williams, although that is not confirmed.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan
for peace. So, here's one plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their
affairs, past & present. We will promise never to "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We
would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in
the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and
leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder
will be gathered up and deported immediately,
regardless of who or where
they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day
visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation
would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself,
don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't
need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they
don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home, baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy
wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but
will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The
caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds,
rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them
gets "lost" or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get
very little, anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the
spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good
homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one
can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. Now, ain't that a winner of a
plan. "The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your
tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling,
'You want a piece of me?"

Robin

Result number: 191
Searching file 17

Message Number 178719

fable View Thread
Posted by Susan on 7/20/05 at 14:17

NewsTarget.com printable article
Tuesday, July 19, 2005

Welcome to the town of Allopath

There once was a town called Allopath. It had many people, streets
and cars, but due to budget limitations, there were no stop signs or
traffic lights anywhere in Allopath.

Not surprisingly, traffic accidents were common. Cars would crash
into each other at nearly every intersection. But business was
booming for the auto repair shops and local hospitals, which
dominated the economy of Allopath.

As the population of Allopath grew, traffic accidents increased to an
alarming level. Out of desperation, the city council hired Doctor
West, a doctor of the Motor Division (M.D.) to find a solution.

Dr. West spent days examining traffic accidents. He carried an
assortment of technical gear -- microscopes, chemical analysis
equipment, lab gear -- and put them all to work as part of his
investigation. The townspeople of Allopath watched on with great
curiosity while Dr. West went about his work, meticulously
documenting and analyzing each traffic accident, and they awaited his
final report with great interest.

After weeks of investigation, Dr. West called the people of Allopath
to a town meeting for the release of his report. There, in front of
the city council and most of the residents of Allopath, he announced
his findings: "Traffic accidents are caused by skid marks."

As Dr. West explained, he found and documented a near-100%
correlation between traffic accidents and skid marks. "Wherever we
find these cars colliding," he explained, "we also find these skid
marks."

The town had "Skid Marks Disease," the doctor explained, and the
answer to the town's epidemic of traffic accidents would, "...require
nothing more than treating Skid Marks Disease by making the streets
skid-proof," Dr. West exclaimed, to great applause from the
townspeople.

The city paid Dr. West his consulting fee, then asked the good doctor
to propose a method for treating this Skid Marks Disease. As chance
would have it, Dr. West had recently been on a trip to Hawaii paid
for by a chemical company that manufactured roadaceuticals: special
chemicals used to treat roads for situations just like this one. He
recommended a particular chemical coating to the city council:
teflon.

"We can treat this Skid Marks Disease by coating the roads with
teflon," Dr. West explained. "The streets will then be skid-proof,
and all the traffic accidents will cease!" He went on to describe the
physical properties of teflon and how its near-frictionless coating
would deter nearly all vehicle skids.

The city council heartily agreed with Dr. West, and they issued new
public bonds to raise the money required to buy enough teflon to coat
all the city's streets. Within weeks, the streets were completely
coated, and the skid marks all but disappeared.

The city council paid Dr. West another consulting fee and thanked him
for his expertise. The problem of traffic accidents in Allopath was
solved, they thought. Although the cure was expensive, they were
convinced it was worth it.

But things weren't well in Allopath. Traffic accidents quadrupled.
Hospital beds were overflowing with injured residents. Auto repair
businesses were booming so much that most of the city council members
decided to either open their own car repair shops or invest in
existing ones.

Week after week, more and more residents of Allopath were injured,
and their cars were repeatedly damaged. Money piled into the pockets
of the car repair shops, hospitals, tow truck companies and car parts
retailers.

The town economic advisor, observing this sharp increase in economic
activity, announced that Allopath was booming. Its economy was
healthier than ever, and Allopath could look forward to a great year
of economic prosperity!

There were jobs to be had at the car repair shops. There were more
nurses needed at the hospital. "Help wanted" signs appeared all over
town at the paramedic station, the tow truck shops, and the auto
glass businesses. Unemployment dropped to near zero.

But the traffic accidents continued to increase. And yet there were
no skid marks.

The city council was baffled. They thought they had solved this
problem. Skid Marks Disease had been eradicated by the teflon
treatment. Why were traffic accidents still happening?

They called a town meeting to discuss the problem, and following a
short discussion of the problem, an old hermit, who lived in the
forest just outside of Allopath, addressed the townspeople. "There is
no such thing as Skid Marks Disease," he explained. "This disease was
invented by the roadaceuticals company to sell you teflon coatings."

The townspeople were horrified to hear such a statement. They knew
Skid Marks Disease existed. The doctor had told them so. How could
this hermit, who had no Motor Division (M.D.) degree, dare tell them
otherwise? How could he question their collective town wisdom in such
a way?

"This is a simple problem," the hermit continued. "All we need to do
is build stop signs and traffic lights. Then the traffic accidents
will cease."

Without pause, one city council member remarked, "But how can we
afford stop signs? We've spent all our money on teflon treatments!"

The townspeople agreed. They had no money to buy stop signs.

Another council member added, "And how can we stop anyway? The
streets are all coated with teflon. If we build stop signs, we'll
waste all the money we've spent on teflon!"

The townspeople agreed, again. What use were stop signs if they
couldn't stop their cars anyway?

The hermit replied, "But the stop signs will eliminate the need for
teflon. People will be able to stop their cars, and accidents will
cease. The solution is simple."

But what might happen if stop signs actually worked, the townspeople
wondered. How would it affect the booming economy of Allopath?
Realizing the consequences, a burly old man who owned a local repair
shop jumped to his feet and said, "If we build these stop signs, and
traffic accidents go down, I'll have to fire most of my workers!"

It was at that moment that most of the townspeople realized there own
jobs were at stake. If stop signs were built, nearly everyone would
be unemployed. They all had jobs in emergency response services, car
repair shops, hospitals and teflon coating maintenance. Some were now
sales representatives of the roadaceuticals company. Others were
importers of glass, tires, steel and other parts for cars. A few
clever people were making a fortune selling wheelchairs and crutches
to accident victims.

One enterprising young gentleman started a scientific journal that
published research papers describing all the different kind of Skid
Marks Diseases that had been observed and documented. Another person,
a fitness enthusiast, organized an annual run to raise funds to find
the cure for Skid Marks Disease. It was a popular event, and all the
townspeople participated as best they could: jogging, walking, or
just pushing themselves along in their wheelchairs.

One way or another, nearly everyone in Allopath was economically tied
to Skid Marks Disease.

Out of fear of losing this economic prosperity, the townspeople voted
to create a new public safety agency: the Frequent Drivers
Association (FDA). This FDA would be responsible for approving or
rejecting all signage, technology and chemical coatings related to
the town's roads.

The FDA's board members were chosen from among the business leaders
of the community: the owner of the car shop, the owner of the
ambulance company, and of course, Dr. West.

Soon after its inception, the FDA announced that Skid Marks Disease
was, indeed, very real, as it had been carefully documented by a
doctor and recently published in the town Skid Marks Disease journal.
Since there were no studies whatsoever showing stop signs to be
effective for reducing traffic accidents, the FDA announced that stop
signs were to be outlawed, and that any person attempting to sell
stop signs would be charged with fraud and locked up in the town
jail.

This pleased the townspeople of Allopath. With the FDA, they knew
their jobs were safe. They could go on living their lives of economic
prosperity, with secure jobs, knowing that the FDA would outlaw any
attempt to take away their livelihood. They still had a lot of
traffic accidents, but at least their jobs were secure.

And so life continued in Allopath. For a short while, at least. As
traffic accidents continued at a devastating rate, more and more
residents of Allopath were injured or killed. Many were left bed-
ridden, unable to work, due to their injuries.

In time, the population dwindled. The once-booming town of Allopath
eventually became little more than a ghost town. The hospital closed
its doors, the FDA was disbanded, and the Skid Marks Disease journal
stopped printing.

The few residents remaining eventually realized nothing good had come
of Skid Marks Disease, the teflon coatings and the FDA. No one was
any better off, as all the town's money had been spent on the
disease: the teflon coatings, car parts and emergency services. No
one was any healthier, or happier, or longer-lived. Most, in fact,
had lost their entire families to Skid Marks Disease.

And the hermit? He continued to live just outside of town, at the end
of a winding country road, where he lived a simple life with no cars,
no roads, no teflon coatings and no FDA.

He outlived every single resident of Allopath. He gardened, took long
walks through the forest, and gathered roots, leaves and berries to
feed himself. In his spare time, he constructed stop signs, waiting
for the next population to come along, and hoping they might listen
to an old hermit with a crazy idea:

...that prevention is the answer, not the treatment of symptoms.

This fable was authored by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger. You may
reprint or repost, as long as appropriate credit is given to Mike
Adams at www.NewsTarget.com

Result number: 192

Message Number 178236

Re: Dave B. Re: I want to run marathons again View Thread
Posted by dave b. on 7/12/05 at 09:31

Right, thanks. It was DriverWilde who originally posted it. I'm finding my way around here now.

Result number: 193

Message Number 177860

Re: it isn't easy giving up something? View Thread
Posted by John H on 7/05/05 at 10:39

Roseman: I do not smoke or know the answer to this but if you add in those killed and maimed by drunk drivers I wonder if smoking would still be the greatest cause of death? Probably!

Result number: 194

Message Number 177776

Re: A good idea for drivers View Thread
Posted by Ron on 7/03/05 at 23:16

You have to watch out about these cameras, because the heat will destroy them, and the cold may be just as bad for them. I don't know the shelf life of film in a car that gets very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter.

As I tested my camera out after a few months in my hot car, the pictures wound up being very dark. Take a test run before you try this out.

Result number: 195

Message Number 177690

Re: A good idea for drivers View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 7/01/05 at 20:14


What a smart idea! I never thought of a camera. I'm glad you didn't get hurt, Linda. Yes, she's smart and keeps her wits about her. I've told her she doesn't really have to go to the wedding but now she seems determined to go. Everyone; her friends, her colleagues, they're all telling her not to go. You're right, Ralph, she's smart to know that her boyfriend is a lousy driver.

And yes, Linda, it was much better when she was away. I wasn't much of a worrier when either of my children were at college. I figured what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me and I'd done the best I could to raise responsible adults.

And everyone keeps saying that things happen in three's but I don't believe that for one minute. I'm just a bit concerned about all the holiday traffic. I avoid it if I can and I consider myself a good driver. It's not her driving I'm worrying about. It's everyone else's. She's leaving on Sunday, though, so hopefully, the majority of people will be where they want to be and she's not headed for the ocean. And if she leaves real early on Monday, hopefully, she'll miss the worst of it.

She's a very experienced driver. She's had her own car since she was sixteen and we allowed her to drive a great deal, like to northern Vermont, the Cape, Boston, when she was in high school. We thought that experience was the best teacher.

I, the one who hates flying, really wish I could afford to pay for them to fly because it would be so much safer. Oh well.....here's hoping she has a safe trip and a good time.

Result number: 196

Message Number 177670

Re: A good idea for drivers View Thread
Posted by Linda V on 7/01/05 at 15:28

Kathy,
So sorry about your daughter. I'm sure my two have had some horrendous experiences that I don't know about. Sometimes I think its easier when they move out---I sleep well each night convincing myself they are fine and home in bed safe. Its a lot easier than when I used to pace the floor and peer out the window to see what time they got home! Anyway, I read somewhere that its a good idea to keep a cheap disposable camera in your glove compartment for emergencies. A quick snapshot of a license plate, car damage, a person...whatever. I carry one now in my car. I was with my brother in Massachusetts 2 weeks ago when we got rear-ended HARD. The driver stopped, but he looked like he was about to bolt. I was reaching for my camera in case. However, damage was minor, no one was hurt...so we let it go.

Result number: 197

Message Number 177646

Re: So now my daughter's rental car got sideswiped....... View Thread
Posted by Suzanne D. on 7/01/05 at 12:31

Oh, Kathy ~ I am sorry. Gracious, your daughter has been through so much lately! She was smart and quick-thinking to insist that she exchange the proper documents with the other driver.

I understand your concern. And, yes, we mothers do seem to be the worriers, don't we? I know after my daughter's wreck, even though it wasn't her fault, I have been anxious every time she is out on the road. I'll be thinking of your daughter - and you - this weekend.

Speaking of mothers and daughters, I have been following the Natalie Holloway news as I am sure many of you are. Isn't that a heart-breaking situation? Her mother is on the news, night after night, pleading for information and firm in her determination to stay until her daughter is found. I think about them every day.

Take care,
Suzanne :)

Result number: 198

Message Number 177643

So now my daughter's rental car got sideswiped....... View Thread
Posted by Kathy G on 7/01/05 at 10:54


yesterday evening, while she was sitting in a traffic jam. The car behind decided to pull out into oncoming traffic in order to move up in line. Turns out it was a doctor who was on her way to deiver a baby. She was going to give my daughter her credit card number and be on her way but my daughter insisted they exchange proper documents. Then the woman took off. She was driving an Infinity and it got scratched all along the side.

The city was in the midst of a festival and the police told my daughter that if there was no bodily injury involved, she'd have to come to the station to make out an accident report. It took a long time. Her rental car sustained some damage to the bumper and she had twenty-four hours to turn it in to another Hertz office. The only one open last night was the one at Logan Airport and that was clear across the city so she has to do it today.

I'm not superstitious but I am worried sick about her having to drive all the way to NJ on Sunday and back home on the Fourth. This is for my daughter-in-law's sister's wedding and I just want her to stay home. No way I can afford the $800 for her and her boyfriend to fly down. I am beside myself but my husband thinks it's no big deal. I guess that's the difference between mothers and fathers.

Her boyfriend is a terrible driver and she won't drive with him. Another good reason not to marry the guy but I digress. It won't be a restful holiday for me, that's for sure.

Result number: 199

Message Number 177387

Re: My daughter's car got hit by a deer! View Thread
Posted by Suzanne D. on 6/27/05 at 19:41

Oh, Kathy, I am sorry! That must have been a frightening experience for your daughter. I'm thankful she and her friend weren't hurt.

Remember my daughter's accident a year ago in May? She was also driving a Camry - 2001, I believe. It was totalled, but we were thankful she didn't sustain any worse injuries than the three broken toes. She is now driving another Camry; we believe the advertisements which say the Camry is built to sustain a crash and keep the driver as safe as possible.

Did your daughter's air bag come out? My daughter said that was frightening in itself. She said the smell made her think the car was on fire. She is tall like me, so the air bag caused some abrasions on her upper chest. My older daughter who is 6 inches shorter would probably have had injuries to her face.

I saw a deer on our road a couple of weeks ago. I am more atuned to watching for them in the fall. It was a surprise to see one now.

I hope your daughter isn't too sore tomorrow.
Suzanne :)

Result number: 200

Message Number 177095

Re: cost/comparison? View Thread
Posted by DriverWilde on 6/20/05 at 12:56

Well said, Ralph.

Get an authorization in writing. Realize that CIGNA has already put it in writing that they are not covering the procedure. Hate to see you get stuck with a bill. Here in Florida CIGNA is not paying for the procedure.

-dW

Result number: 201

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