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Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Posted by Rick R on 1/18/00 at 00:00 (014883)

Please feel free to send anybody my way that thinks this is all in your mind. I have 16 years of this lousy condition to draw from. Oh yea, early on like most of you are now (I hope) I had nothing to show off but after about 13 years, just prior to surgery, my left heel had so much scar tissue and actual bone growth that it looked significantly different than my right. It looked like a darned ball that filled into the area that should have been reserved for my arch. Now it's the other way around. Not that the right is so bad, but the left is so much better. It looks like everyone elses in the family! My spurs looked like Italy in the Mediterranean on the Xrays. That would be one powerful mind! I'll have to give that spoon bending trick a try, heck, you might see me on the tonight show. All that said, the worst suffering was in the early stages, years before I had any narly battle scars to show for it.

Melody has a great point. Regardless of what others think about us, we do have pain to deal with and the more prepared we are to deal with it, the better off we are. It may even help others accept it if we are open minded regarding pain management. I have often shared my opinion regarding taping. I know some folks have found it too uncomfortable. That's fine, and I would wish that they and others could be 'cured' without taking that uncomfortable step. For many of us the road to recovering some of our desired life style will include much pain, discomfort and inconvience. In the meantime, feel free to send the nay sayers to Chicago for a lesson in pain management! Lots of luck.

Rick


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Laurie R on 1/18/00 at 00:00 (014885)

Hi Rick,How have you been?It has been a while.My computer is still out so I use my brothers so I can't e-mail anyone now.Anyways back to feet I feel the same way as you about pain I know its not in my head it is in my foot!!!!! How are your feet doing?Now my podiatrist thinks I have TTS we will see.I still have all this nerve pain going on my foot goes numb and it tingels and I get thoes shocks going throw my foot.It is so nice to see your name on the board again.I HOPE ALL IS well with you..Laurie R

Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014909)

Laurie,

Things have been a bit hectic lately but that's the way I like it. I just brought Daughter #1 (Angela) back to college Sunday so now I have one less competitor for the computor. Work is getting crazy so who knows. My feet are doing extreemly well, I almost feel guilty. On the point of this thread, in this 'good' condition I still have pain and discomfort that would have had me concerned in the Reagan era. My back went out for Christmas so I stood a lot which of course gets the heels going. Fathom that, I still can't stand for a long time but I can run. There is no doubt that a significant factor to regaining an active life is learning to deal with the pain. But that is such a far cry from telling people to just deal with it, grow up or it's all in your head. Since I have been running again my nerve thing has gradually dissappeared. I used to get that flame thrower sensation. Hopefully yours will also improve once the heels improve and you get more active. How's the new PT going?


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

alan k on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014911)

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I was the one upset about the gift of the book about painful conditions being caused in the mind, after all.
It really is frustrating to have people tell you that through some psychological weakness you brought this on yourself, plus it isn't real anyway, so grow up. What I am talking about here is a point of fact and the importance of getting it straight in order to deal with pain. I am very alarmed at mental cures or saying if you put on a happy face your pf will get better, etc. That may help but it is a major denial on the part of onlookers who don't understand.
The point of fact is simply that painfulness itself, as an experience, is a mental phenomena. Everyone who thinks about it has to agree, I think. But as we actually live our lives, we are convinced that the pain is 'in' the foot, has nothing to do with 'me' and is an alien agent assaulting us, etc. In fact, painfulness is and can only be a mental phenomena and as such it is very close to 'me' and an intimate part of ourselves. It's 'there' that we have to deal with it, and we all already are, and a long term sufferer like Rick probably has a lot of experience doing that. We all do it automatically. We all could do it better as well. It's got to start from understanding that 'ouch' is in the heart only, and the only way through pain is in accepting and recieving it rather than resisting it.

It's the struggle between me and pain, which is really a struggle between me and me, that is the cause of ouch. No struggle, no ouch.

I have proven this to myself in the past, that accepting pain takes away the hurt, with past experiences that were short term. On the other hand, I have of course hardly adjusted to this long term condition as evidenced by my frequent expressions of frustration, but the point is that just this little intellectual adjustment of understanding that painfulness is a mental phenomena is a good starting point toward getting at the intimate place that hurting happens.

This is NOT to say that this will in any way make the bio-mechanical condition any better whatsoever, or take away the physical phenomena which are instigating the pain response. Anyone who says that to me gets me flustered because I feel they are denying my pain and belittling me too, at least subtly. I hope I don't seem to be saying such things.

alan k


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014914)

alan,

If for instance one had the mental capacity to block out the pain how would this condition manifest itself? I have to believe somewhere down the line the structural integrity of the tendon attachment would be compromised and we would not be able to walk very well or have any power to do hard physical work or athletics. Pain serves the purpose of warning us that something is wrong. We would be nuts to seek a pure mental solution. We would be, perhaps, just as remiss to consider the symptoms to be alien and not worthy of seeking our whole self to overcome. It is still a mystery to me how difficult this strange condition is to understand for the outsiders. I have set my own fractures, stoically passed kidney stones and lord knows what else, but suddenly I must be a wimp if the pain is in my heels? Dosen't make much sense. How about the mothers out there; they can deliver a child but can't deal with pain, give me a break. Now there is a great example of where society has not compromised the appreciation for the pain while simultaneously implementing mental approaches to mitigating the pain (lamaze). Now if you want to see me turn wimp watch me try to put eyedrops in!


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

alan k on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014915)

Your not understanding is probably because your are thinking of pain as in amounts and volumes or some other quantifiable measure as though the experience of pain and hurting was a physical thing. Since it is not, you can't compare two pains or two experiences. Each one is bound up in a huge complexity-- your mind in very different situations.
I'm not sure how you are getting, from what I said, that it is about a compromise of the appreciation of pain. It is a subtle point I guess that can border on seeming to do that. Also, I don't know what wimpiness means here in relation to a natural psychological process that everyone shares. It is normal, not wimpy, to feel pain and pyshcologically hurt from it. But it is not completely out of one's control.
As for dangers, etc. This is not what I meant. For instance, the nun I was talking about has constant pain, but she does not hurt. Pain can be there but you don't have to ouch, ouch, ouch along with it. We have a choice and just because we haven't achieved it is not proof positive that it is impossible. Also, dealing with pain doesn't make the physical instigator go away, but it does make it 'hurt' us less.
This could NEVER be done with the desire to mentally block out pain. Because that would mean you want to get away from it, push it off, and that is the struggle that causes the hurt. To get to the heart of the matter you have to 'Be the pain.' You have to invite it and accept it-- there's nothing you can do anyway if there is something in your foot causing it. You can take physical action on the foot if possible to heal it, to make the pain go away. But you can never make hurt go away in the mind by pushing it away or not wanting it. It's the 'I don't want this' that hurts.

This cannot be disproven by argument. You have to try it out and see if it is not so. Of course, If you automatically rule it out, then you can't try it, and so you have no idea if it is true or not.

Look at your most painful moment next time when it comes, and see if you can't go into your heart and calm it down and have it smile with ease. It might happen for a split second but that would be proof that in principle it is possible to have pain and not hurt.


alan k


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014918)

alan,

Somewhere along the line I think I have been misleading. I have been dealing with two seperate issues and evidentially not too clearly. I agree whole heartedly that dealing with pain is a mental challenge that can be aproached as you have described. I have done it many times. I'm not sure I would have ever thought of describing it as 'being the pain' (although others may have described me as such from time to time) but the more I think of it, the more that phrase makes sense. I did learn from watching my wife deliver three children, I have told her on many occasion, I couldn't have done it without her!

The other point and perhaps best kept as a seperate issue, is how others treat us. Regardless of how we approach our situation there is a problem with the general level of understanding of what we are going through. Despite the validity of improving our approach to managing pain on all levels, for othrers to deny our struggle is frustrating. Again, we wouldn't drean of telling a mother in hard labor that the pain is all in her head. Yet, as you have rather convincing argued, that can be considered to be the case. If so desired, I could have had a temporary handicap placard for injuries that to me are far less valid than an active PF flare-up. They can understand a broken bone and offer you some mitigating convience, yet we have people told by their doctors that their PF is all in their head?

No one would have dreamed to tell me to go home and pass that first kidney stone on my own. When I went to the emergency room, they treated me like a king, sent me right in ahead of others and rushed the demorol into me. (great stuff and it was legal)Yet we have skeptics out there that don't seem to understand that there is a real PF condition that some of us are dealing with.

Back to the other topic, now that I know it when I'm passing a stone and I'm not going to die, I do handle it on my own and use all the mental energy and tricks I have managed to pick up along the way. It is very much as you described with the Nun. It is there but you do have a choice of whether or not to let the pain dominate or consume you or simply be part of you. Once you get over the uncertianty of the message your body is sending, it does become a mental thing. I think many of the PF sufferers are still in the uncertian stage given the relative lack of solid information that they have to go on.



Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!To Rick

Laurie R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014934)

Hi Rick,I really like the new PT It is a sports therapy place and my therapist I feel is really good!!!! He takes the time with each person I go for 1 and 45mi two times a week.I was going 3 times a week and I was doing so much better so my podiatrist cut my therapy to two times a week then this nerve thing kicked in.I will keep you posted.Back to the pain thing.I feel I know alot about pain not only do I have PF but I also have had 7 major surgery on my stomach so I will say that the pain is in your head because the more you think about it the worst it gets but that does'nt say you don't have pain if you are not thinking about it.I also have a high tolorence for pain so when I say I am in pain I mean it.I will also tell everyone I have had doctors in the past that did'nt care if I was in pain and that was just after surgery and we all know after sergery you do have pain if they cut you open .So a word to the wise chose your doctors carefully.Laurie R

Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!To Rick

Rick R on 1/20/00 at 00:00 (014945)

Laurie,

I think that part of the problem with doctors and their understanding of us, is that they see a never ending stream of lonely people with nothing better to do than draw attention to every minor ache and pain. I can't believe some of the things people go to get stiches for. Then in strolls someone like you and they fail to adjust their scale to grasp the magnitude of your situation. My brother-in-law has literally come close to death because he didn't complain loudly enough. He is a shy type that simply doesn't complain.

Talk about the mother of all tummy aches, 7 surgerys, yikes. Just a quick question, did your foot trouble happen to start after you had been laid up for a while recovering from your stomach surgery?

I was thinking about the pain thing while running last night and it occured to me how differently I treat and react to pain depending on where it comes from. My right foot I know is screwed up and will most likely require surgery, opposed to my left one that has been sliced and diced. When it comes to the right one I can completly ignore anything that it can dish out. Conversly for the left side I'm, keenly tuned in for any sign that I may be pushing too hard. I have only minor infrequent 'signals' in the left one opposed to rather constant and significant sensation from the right. The implications for the future make all the differance in the world to how much I pay attention to these signals. For the new commers to PF I think it is normal for them to take pain far more seriously due to the uncertianty of their future.

Take care,

Rick


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Laurie R on 1/18/00 at 00:00 (014885)

Hi Rick,How have you been?It has been a while.My computer is still out so I use my brothers so I can't e-mail anyone now.Anyways back to feet I feel the same way as you about pain I know its not in my head it is in my foot!!!!! How are your feet doing?Now my podiatrist thinks I have TTS we will see.I still have all this nerve pain going on my foot goes numb and it tingels and I get thoes shocks going throw my foot.It is so nice to see your name on the board again.I HOPE ALL IS well with you..Laurie R

Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014909)

Laurie,

Things have been a bit hectic lately but that's the way I like it. I just brought Daughter #1 (Angela) back to college Sunday so now I have one less competitor for the computor. Work is getting crazy so who knows. My feet are doing extreemly well, I almost feel guilty. On the point of this thread, in this 'good' condition I still have pain and discomfort that would have had me concerned in the Reagan era. My back went out for Christmas so I stood a lot which of course gets the heels going. Fathom that, I still can't stand for a long time but I can run. There is no doubt that a significant factor to regaining an active life is learning to deal with the pain. But that is such a far cry from telling people to just deal with it, grow up or it's all in your head. Since I have been running again my nerve thing has gradually dissappeared. I used to get that flame thrower sensation. Hopefully yours will also improve once the heels improve and you get more active. How's the new PT going?


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

alan k on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014911)

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I was the one upset about the gift of the book about painful conditions being caused in the mind, after all.
It really is frustrating to have people tell you that through some psychological weakness you brought this on yourself, plus it isn't real anyway, so grow up. What I am talking about here is a point of fact and the importance of getting it straight in order to deal with pain. I am very alarmed at mental cures or saying if you put on a happy face your pf will get better, etc. That may help but it is a major denial on the part of onlookers who don't understand.
The point of fact is simply that painfulness itself, as an experience, is a mental phenomena. Everyone who thinks about it has to agree, I think. But as we actually live our lives, we are convinced that the pain is 'in' the foot, has nothing to do with 'me' and is an alien agent assaulting us, etc. In fact, painfulness is and can only be a mental phenomena and as such it is very close to 'me' and an intimate part of ourselves. It's 'there' that we have to deal with it, and we all already are, and a long term sufferer like Rick probably has a lot of experience doing that. We all do it automatically. We all could do it better as well. It's got to start from understanding that 'ouch' is in the heart only, and the only way through pain is in accepting and recieving it rather than resisting it.

It's the struggle between me and pain, which is really a struggle between me and me, that is the cause of ouch. No struggle, no ouch.

I have proven this to myself in the past, that accepting pain takes away the hurt, with past experiences that were short term. On the other hand, I have of course hardly adjusted to this long term condition as evidenced by my frequent expressions of frustration, but the point is that just this little intellectual adjustment of understanding that painfulness is a mental phenomena is a good starting point toward getting at the intimate place that hurting happens.

This is NOT to say that this will in any way make the bio-mechanical condition any better whatsoever, or take away the physical phenomena which are instigating the pain response. Anyone who says that to me gets me flustered because I feel they are denying my pain and belittling me too, at least subtly. I hope I don't seem to be saying such things.

alan k


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014914)

alan,

If for instance one had the mental capacity to block out the pain how would this condition manifest itself? I have to believe somewhere down the line the structural integrity of the tendon attachment would be compromised and we would not be able to walk very well or have any power to do hard physical work or athletics. Pain serves the purpose of warning us that something is wrong. We would be nuts to seek a pure mental solution. We would be, perhaps, just as remiss to consider the symptoms to be alien and not worthy of seeking our whole self to overcome. It is still a mystery to me how difficult this strange condition is to understand for the outsiders. I have set my own fractures, stoically passed kidney stones and lord knows what else, but suddenly I must be a wimp if the pain is in my heels? Dosen't make much sense. How about the mothers out there; they can deliver a child but can't deal with pain, give me a break. Now there is a great example of where society has not compromised the appreciation for the pain while simultaneously implementing mental approaches to mitigating the pain (lamaze). Now if you want to see me turn wimp watch me try to put eyedrops in!


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

alan k on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014915)

Your not understanding is probably because your are thinking of pain as in amounts and volumes or some other quantifiable measure as though the experience of pain and hurting was a physical thing. Since it is not, you can't compare two pains or two experiences. Each one is bound up in a huge complexity-- your mind in very different situations.
I'm not sure how you are getting, from what I said, that it is about a compromise of the appreciation of pain. It is a subtle point I guess that can border on seeming to do that. Also, I don't know what wimpiness means here in relation to a natural psychological process that everyone shares. It is normal, not wimpy, to feel pain and pyshcologically hurt from it. But it is not completely out of one's control.
As for dangers, etc. This is not what I meant. For instance, the nun I was talking about has constant pain, but she does not hurt. Pain can be there but you don't have to ouch, ouch, ouch along with it. We have a choice and just because we haven't achieved it is not proof positive that it is impossible. Also, dealing with pain doesn't make the physical instigator go away, but it does make it 'hurt' us less.
This could NEVER be done with the desire to mentally block out pain. Because that would mean you want to get away from it, push it off, and that is the struggle that causes the hurt. To get to the heart of the matter you have to 'Be the pain.' You have to invite it and accept it-- there's nothing you can do anyway if there is something in your foot causing it. You can take physical action on the foot if possible to heal it, to make the pain go away. But you can never make hurt go away in the mind by pushing it away or not wanting it. It's the 'I don't want this' that hurts.

This cannot be disproven by argument. You have to try it out and see if it is not so. Of course, If you automatically rule it out, then you can't try it, and so you have no idea if it is true or not.

Look at your most painful moment next time when it comes, and see if you can't go into your heart and calm it down and have it smile with ease. It might happen for a split second but that would be proof that in principle it is possible to have pain and not hurt.


alan k


Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!

Rick R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014918)

alan,

Somewhere along the line I think I have been misleading. I have been dealing with two seperate issues and evidentially not too clearly. I agree whole heartedly that dealing with pain is a mental challenge that can be aproached as you have described. I have done it many times. I'm not sure I would have ever thought of describing it as 'being the pain' (although others may have described me as such from time to time) but the more I think of it, the more that phrase makes sense. I did learn from watching my wife deliver three children, I have told her on many occasion, I couldn't have done it without her!

The other point and perhaps best kept as a seperate issue, is how others treat us. Regardless of how we approach our situation there is a problem with the general level of understanding of what we are going through. Despite the validity of improving our approach to managing pain on all levels, for othrers to deny our struggle is frustrating. Again, we wouldn't drean of telling a mother in hard labor that the pain is all in her head. Yet, as you have rather convincing argued, that can be considered to be the case. If so desired, I could have had a temporary handicap placard for injuries that to me are far less valid than an active PF flare-up. They can understand a broken bone and offer you some mitigating convience, yet we have people told by their doctors that their PF is all in their head?

No one would have dreamed to tell me to go home and pass that first kidney stone on my own. When I went to the emergency room, they treated me like a king, sent me right in ahead of others and rushed the demorol into me. (great stuff and it was legal)Yet we have skeptics out there that don't seem to understand that there is a real PF condition that some of us are dealing with.

Back to the other topic, now that I know it when I'm passing a stone and I'm not going to die, I do handle it on my own and use all the mental energy and tricks I have managed to pick up along the way. It is very much as you described with the Nun. It is there but you do have a choice of whether or not to let the pain dominate or consume you or simply be part of you. Once you get over the uncertianty of the message your body is sending, it does become a mental thing. I think many of the PF sufferers are still in the uncertian stage given the relative lack of solid information that they have to go on.



Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!To Rick

Laurie R on 1/19/00 at 00:00 (014934)

Hi Rick,I really like the new PT It is a sports therapy place and my therapist I feel is really good!!!! He takes the time with each person I go for 1 and 45mi two times a week.I was going 3 times a week and I was doing so much better so my podiatrist cut my therapy to two times a week then this nerve thing kicked in.I will keep you posted.Back to the pain thing.I feel I know alot about pain not only do I have PF but I also have had 7 major surgery on my stomach so I will say that the pain is in your head because the more you think about it the worst it gets but that does'nt say you don't have pain if you are not thinking about it.I also have a high tolorence for pain so when I say I am in pain I mean it.I will also tell everyone I have had doctors in the past that did'nt care if I was in pain and that was just after surgery and we all know after sergery you do have pain if they cut you open .So a word to the wise chose your doctors carefully.Laurie R

Re: I know my mind isn't that powerful!!To Rick

Rick R on 1/20/00 at 00:00 (014945)

Laurie,

I think that part of the problem with doctors and their understanding of us, is that they see a never ending stream of lonely people with nothing better to do than draw attention to every minor ache and pain. I can't believe some of the things people go to get stiches for. Then in strolls someone like you and they fail to adjust their scale to grasp the magnitude of your situation. My brother-in-law has literally come close to death because he didn't complain loudly enough. He is a shy type that simply doesn't complain.

Talk about the mother of all tummy aches, 7 surgerys, yikes. Just a quick question, did your foot trouble happen to start after you had been laid up for a while recovering from your stomach surgery?

I was thinking about the pain thing while running last night and it occured to me how differently I treat and react to pain depending on where it comes from. My right foot I know is screwed up and will most likely require surgery, opposed to my left one that has been sliced and diced. When it comes to the right one I can completly ignore anything that it can dish out. Conversly for the left side I'm, keenly tuned in for any sign that I may be pushing too hard. I have only minor infrequent 'signals' in the left one opposed to rather constant and significant sensation from the right. The implications for the future make all the differance in the world to how much I pay attention to these signals. For the new commers to PF I think it is normal for them to take pain far more seriously due to the uncertianty of their future.

Take care,

Rick