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an interesting theory.........

Posted by JudyS on 8/10/00 at 12:45 (025100)

Yesterday my PT said something to me that I thought I'd toss in to the fray here (and create more confusion?).....

He said, as we've heard before, that discovering the underlying cause of one's PF is at least as critical as treating the PF. I told him that I thought my underlying cause was my high arches. His response? Not necessarily. Lots of folks have high arches, flat feet, etc and do just fine. In fact, I did just fine for over 45 years! Together we tracked down the fact that when I developed PF, it was a few months after, one, using new style running shoes, and two, replacing my carpeted floors with hardwood. I then exacerbated the issue by being on my feet, while rehabing my mother-in-law's house (I'm an avid do-it-yerselfer...), for 12-hour days, in those same shoes, for over 3 months. I also ate very poorly during that time and completely ignored my exercise routine(s).
So who knows - would I have PF if I hadn't done those things?


Re: an interesting theory.........

Barbara on 8/10/00 at 13:04 (025101)

May not be just a theory, but the actual cause. I agree, having flat feet or high arches cannot be 'the cause' of PF. I have regular arches that tend to flatten out when I stand, but I've been using these feet for 45 years without pain...until I changed to a different type of winter boot. My brother has the flattest feet I have ever seen (they're almost convex). He's 42, overweight, and has never had a foot problem. Probably never will!

I still believe that PF is part of a much larger, whole-body, problem. I say this because of the numerous people on this board who report that they have not just PF, but multiple-site problems. Me included.


Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 13:28 (025103)

The 'multiple-site' thing causes some thought - In my case it doesn't apply (yet?) - I just have the foot problem.

Re: an interesting theory.........

wendyn on 8/10/00 at 13:57 (025106)

Although I have numerous structural problems, things were relatively peaceful with my feet until 3 years ago. I started jogging and doing aerobics in innappropriate shows - result; PF. Got orthotics - got better. Switched to sandals in the summer (flat no support) result; PF. Stayed with hard rigid orthotics - result; TTS (my assumed connection). Now that I am out of orthotics and into Birks, my condition has improved.

There definately seemed to be some cause and effect happening other than the fact that I was made wrong in the first place.


Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 14:11 (025109)

I think in almost every case there are multiple factors coming together. I don't like the language of 'underlying cause' because it suggests one and only one real cause, but underlying causes is okay I guess. The thing is if you isolate any one factor you will find plenty of people with that factor who don't have pf.

I would separate the causes into long-term causes and short-term causes.

Long-term causes are some problem, an inconveniently inherited foot structure, or long term mental stress, or improperly and unsymmetrical developed muscles, etc. that leave you vulnerable to pf and other problems.

Short term causes like suddenly removing carpets, starting up a new sport, hanging from tree branches that suddenly snap and you land on your feet hard, getting new shoes, and other common occurances then seem to 'cause' the pf. But when you fix the 'cause' you don't get fully better because the long-term ones are what really needs fixing.

I think this is the difference between long-term and short-term recovery. And do note that anything that I said was a short-term cause could be long-term one and vice versa (like if you climb alot of trees, etc.)

The main thing is, if you are not getting better quickly, then you have to work on many different causes at the same time, i.e. get un-stressed, put down carpets, find the right shoes, eat right and exercise, etc.

This might mean a radical change in lifestyle for a while but it is worth it.

cheers,

alan k
http://www.acutai.com



Re: an interesting theory.........

Nancy S. on 8/10/00 at 14:33 (025113)

Barbara, I too have come to believe that I'm vulnerable as far as tendons go -- prone to tendonitis etc. -- and if anything beyond is causing that, I don't know what it is. But several years ago I had either carpal tunnel syndrome or tendonitis; the diagnosis was never final. I figured I got it from using my left hand too much, when I edited full-time -- but then why did I have the pain in BOTH hands/wrist/arms? I'm left-handed, and the editing was all by pencil in hand.
Wearing custom-made splints on both arms day and night for three months got it under control (boy, that was fun, and I figured out a way to hold a pencil crazily and still edit with the splint on). I still have pain, though, if I overdo any writing/editing.
Then the PF hit, with achilles & other leg tendons problems following right along. (Mike W kindly sent me his booklet showing all the tendons in the feet and legs, and it came clearer to me why I have so much pain down there now -- I didn't even know there were that many tendons to hurt.)
So what makes one prone to tendon problems? I wonder. If my bloodwork comes back negative tomorrow for the usual systemic problems, I'll REALLY be wondering. (Of course, I'm hoping the tests do come back negative, and my doctor believes they will.)
So, mystery remains.
--Nancy

Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 14:50 (025117)

Nancy did you ever have an anti-biotic that ends with 'floxin' like ciprofloxin, etc.?

Someone posted about that recently and I had taken cipro before.


alan k
http://www.acutai.com


.


Re: an interesting theory.........

Nancy S. on 8/10/00 at 15:00 (025120)

I don't know, Alan. It's very possible. I've had the usual infections over the years -- sinus, bladder, etc. -- and was always given antibiotics for them. Trouble is, I don't remember the name of a single one. If a 'floxin' one was popular at a time that I had an infection, it was probably given to me. Is this a suspect in the PF robbery & murder case?
--Nancy

Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/10/00 at 15:08 (025122)

i tend to agree with allan in that i think the right things come together at the right time to create PF.

Re: an interesting theory.........

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/10/00 at 15:16 (025126)

My theory is that the cause of pf and other tendonitis of the foot and ankle is that the pf is like brakes and shocks on a car. With a car we can replace the part with feet they wear out and become damaged due to the hard non-giving surfaces such as cement etc. The human foot can't take the modern world of standing, walking, running on the hard surface called cement. Does any one know a farmer who has pf. ???

Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 16:11 (025134)

Wendy, I keep telling you to stay away from those 'inappropriate shows'.......just look what's happened to you!

Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 16:13 (025135)

Alan, my friend, you've 'outed' me. I was hoping my 'hanging from a tree' habit wouldn't ever come to light! Now the whole world knows

Re: an interesting theory.........

BarbS on 8/10/00 at 16:48 (025140)

That's exactly what my Massage Therapist told me. Glad to know she knows what she's talking about, unlike the Reflexologist I had who told me I have pain in my feet because of my 'unresolved issues.' Whatver that means.

Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 17:58 (025150)

people were discussing this last week I think as something that has tendonitits and ruptures as a side-effect. We were wondering if less drastic side-effects might be tendon vulnerability and perhaps effecting the pf.


alan k
http://www.acutai.com


.


Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/10/00 at 18:25 (025154)

does anyone know anyone from ethiopia on kenya with PF? these guys run olympic marathons barefooted and win.

Re: an interesting theory.........

Barbara on 8/10/00 at 18:30 (025155)

8 years ago, I developed tendonitis in my right wrist. I had 5 cortisone shots in different parts of the wrist/thumb area. Talk about torture, those shots hurt bad. I wore a brace and had PT for 6 months. It finally went away. Then I developed tendonitis in my elbows and shoulders that took a few months of PT to resolve. In March, I developed PF (and I think I may now have AT). My right elbow relapsed over 1 1/2 years ago. I am definately prone to tendonitis conditions.

In April I had an infection and was prescribed the antibiotic Levaquin which left me with total-body tendonitis by day 3. I had to take Medrol (steroid) to resolve that. It left me with the PF and the tennis elbow (which is what I had prior to the Levaquin).

I had blood tests for Rheumatoid Factor, Lupus and a SEDS test...all negative. But, I know something is going on here that modern medicine hasn't discovered yet.


Re: Antibiotics

Terry on 8/11/00 at 00:02 (025181)

I came across this on Levaquin. 'Levofloxacin or Levaquin is a quinolone antibiotic and these antibiotics seem to be involed in joint problems, specifically tendinitis, thus people at increased risk for this type of problem should be closely monitored.' I tried to insert the article in this post but could not get it to work. Terry

Re: Antibiotics/Kim

Beverly on 8/11/00 at 00:04 (025182)

Kim,

I can't remember if I have already posted this, but if you want to read more about Floxin and that family of drugs, there is a book called 'Bitter Pills.' It tells one man's horror story that his wife endured after taking Floxin for a simple bladdar infection. And he researched a common thread between muscle pain, nurological problems, and other illnesses in other patients that were traced back to Floxin and Floxin family drugs.

I wish one of our doc's on the board would research this. I should have saved that news blurb I read. It was back in May. I think it was in 'The Dallas Morning News.'

I too am very prone to all manner of sprains, strains, and tendonitis.
I also had Epstein Barr my last sememster of grad school. So, I don't have a great immune system. I try to avoid antibiotics.

Kim, I have had several friends with either FM or chronic fatigue.
One of my chronic fatigue friends believes that she got this after taking several rounds of antibiotics for the flu.

Since I am also very prone to Candida, this is another reason I avoid antibiotics.

Like you, I would like to know more about these new generation antibiotics and their side effects.

Lately, I am meeting more and more women with either chronic fatigue or FM. It makes me believe that either this is something that has always been around but without a name or it is getting more common. With my Epstein Barr history, it is closer to home than I like to think about.

Beverly


Re: Where did you find this Terry?

Kim B. on 8/11/00 at 07:58 (025196)

can you give us a link? Can you higlight and copy, the paste it over here? Jus some suggestions. Thanks for looking into it.

Kim B.


Re: Where did you find this Terry?

Terry on 8/11/00 at 08:37 (025202)

Kim - I went into askjeeves.com and it was the first one at the bottom, I think. For some reason it would not let me copy and paste. See if it will let you. Terry

Re: combination

john h on 8/11/00 at 08:50 (025207)

for nearly all my life i have run, played basketball daily at noon time, gone barefooted in the house, on the beach and in the yard. wore shoes with zilch support. i would run barefooted in the sand on the beach for a couple of miles (blisters ouch). no problems. whenmy pf started i was running a lot up steep hills and my feet and body was probably just tired of being abused for a lifetime. of course i tried to run through the pain and it is no wonder that i have chronic pf.

Re: Levaquin

Levaquin on 8/11/00 at 09:18 (025211)

Kim - I started thinking, boy, that was really vague!
1 - askjeeves.com
2 - what is levaquin?
3 - click on the first on at the bottom, the one with 5 people.
Terry

Re: To Beverly... one other thing about my Floxin experience

Barbara on 8/11/00 at 09:26 (025212)

I developed the total-body tendonitis on day 3 of taking the Levaquin. My MD couldn't/wouldn't undertand. I did my own research and found a web site full of people (I'm talking hundreds) relaying their Levaquin side effect stories. It was really scarey reading all of them. I did further research and found that tendonitis and tendon rupture is a side effect of this and other similar-type antibiotics (Levaquin listed them on their product summary sheet).

Re: Quinolone Antibiotics

Barbara on 8/11/00 at 09:40 (025215)

Here is the web site for Levaquin side effects:

http://www.tropicalpenguin.com/health/forum/messages/241.html


Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/11/00 at 12:15 (025238)

'unresolved issues?' ummm? her name is mary. good thing she has not figured out how to get to this message board or she would resolve my issue.

Re: an interesting theory.........

Barbara on 8/10/00 at 13:04 (025101)

May not be just a theory, but the actual cause. I agree, having flat feet or high arches cannot be 'the cause' of PF. I have regular arches that tend to flatten out when I stand, but I've been using these feet for 45 years without pain...until I changed to a different type of winter boot. My brother has the flattest feet I have ever seen (they're almost convex). He's 42, overweight, and has never had a foot problem. Probably never will!

I still believe that PF is part of a much larger, whole-body, problem. I say this because of the numerous people on this board who report that they have not just PF, but multiple-site problems. Me included.


Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 13:28 (025103)

The 'multiple-site' thing causes some thought - In my case it doesn't apply (yet?) - I just have the foot problem.

Re: an interesting theory.........

wendyn on 8/10/00 at 13:57 (025106)

Although I have numerous structural problems, things were relatively peaceful with my feet until 3 years ago. I started jogging and doing aerobics in innappropriate shows - result; PF. Got orthotics - got better. Switched to sandals in the summer (flat no support) result; PF. Stayed with hard rigid orthotics - result; TTS (my assumed connection). Now that I am out of orthotics and into Birks, my condition has improved.

There definately seemed to be some cause and effect happening other than the fact that I was made wrong in the first place.


Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 14:11 (025109)

I think in almost every case there are multiple factors coming together. I don't like the language of 'underlying cause' because it suggests one and only one real cause, but underlying causes is okay I guess. The thing is if you isolate any one factor you will find plenty of people with that factor who don't have pf.

I would separate the causes into long-term causes and short-term causes.

Long-term causes are some problem, an inconveniently inherited foot structure, or long term mental stress, or improperly and unsymmetrical developed muscles, etc. that leave you vulnerable to pf and other problems.

Short term causes like suddenly removing carpets, starting up a new sport, hanging from tree branches that suddenly snap and you land on your feet hard, getting new shoes, and other common occurances then seem to 'cause' the pf. But when you fix the 'cause' you don't get fully better because the long-term ones are what really needs fixing.

I think this is the difference between long-term and short-term recovery. And do note that anything that I said was a short-term cause could be long-term one and vice versa (like if you climb alot of trees, etc.)

The main thing is, if you are not getting better quickly, then you have to work on many different causes at the same time, i.e. get un-stressed, put down carpets, find the right shoes, eat right and exercise, etc.

This might mean a radical change in lifestyle for a while but it is worth it.

cheers,

alan k
http://www.acutai.com



Re: an interesting theory.........

Nancy S. on 8/10/00 at 14:33 (025113)

Barbara, I too have come to believe that I'm vulnerable as far as tendons go -- prone to tendonitis etc. -- and if anything beyond is causing that, I don't know what it is. But several years ago I had either carpal tunnel syndrome or tendonitis; the diagnosis was never final. I figured I got it from using my left hand too much, when I edited full-time -- but then why did I have the pain in BOTH hands/wrist/arms? I'm left-handed, and the editing was all by pencil in hand.
Wearing custom-made splints on both arms day and night for three months got it under control (boy, that was fun, and I figured out a way to hold a pencil crazily and still edit with the splint on). I still have pain, though, if I overdo any writing/editing.
Then the PF hit, with achilles & other leg tendons problems following right along. (Mike W kindly sent me his booklet showing all the tendons in the feet and legs, and it came clearer to me why I have so much pain down there now -- I didn't even know there were that many tendons to hurt.)
So what makes one prone to tendon problems? I wonder. If my bloodwork comes back negative tomorrow for the usual systemic problems, I'll REALLY be wondering. (Of course, I'm hoping the tests do come back negative, and my doctor believes they will.)
So, mystery remains.
--Nancy

Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 14:50 (025117)

Nancy did you ever have an anti-biotic that ends with 'floxin' like ciprofloxin, etc.?

Someone posted about that recently and I had taken cipro before.


alan k
http://www.acutai.com


.


Re: an interesting theory.........

Nancy S. on 8/10/00 at 15:00 (025120)

I don't know, Alan. It's very possible. I've had the usual infections over the years -- sinus, bladder, etc. -- and was always given antibiotics for them. Trouble is, I don't remember the name of a single one. If a 'floxin' one was popular at a time that I had an infection, it was probably given to me. Is this a suspect in the PF robbery & murder case?
--Nancy

Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/10/00 at 15:08 (025122)

i tend to agree with allan in that i think the right things come together at the right time to create PF.

Re: an interesting theory.........

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/10/00 at 15:16 (025126)

My theory is that the cause of pf and other tendonitis of the foot and ankle is that the pf is like brakes and shocks on a car. With a car we can replace the part with feet they wear out and become damaged due to the hard non-giving surfaces such as cement etc. The human foot can't take the modern world of standing, walking, running on the hard surface called cement. Does any one know a farmer who has pf. ???

Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 16:11 (025134)

Wendy, I keep telling you to stay away from those 'inappropriate shows'.......just look what's happened to you!

Re: an interesting theory.........

JudyS on 8/10/00 at 16:13 (025135)

Alan, my friend, you've 'outed' me. I was hoping my 'hanging from a tree' habit wouldn't ever come to light! Now the whole world knows

Re: an interesting theory.........

BarbS on 8/10/00 at 16:48 (025140)

That's exactly what my Massage Therapist told me. Glad to know she knows what she's talking about, unlike the Reflexologist I had who told me I have pain in my feet because of my 'unresolved issues.' Whatver that means.

Re: an interesting theory.........

alan k on 8/10/00 at 17:58 (025150)

people were discussing this last week I think as something that has tendonitits and ruptures as a side-effect. We were wondering if less drastic side-effects might be tendon vulnerability and perhaps effecting the pf.


alan k
http://www.acutai.com


.


Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/10/00 at 18:25 (025154)

does anyone know anyone from ethiopia on kenya with PF? these guys run olympic marathons barefooted and win.

Re: an interesting theory.........

Barbara on 8/10/00 at 18:30 (025155)

8 years ago, I developed tendonitis in my right wrist. I had 5 cortisone shots in different parts of the wrist/thumb area. Talk about torture, those shots hurt bad. I wore a brace and had PT for 6 months. It finally went away. Then I developed tendonitis in my elbows and shoulders that took a few months of PT to resolve. In March, I developed PF (and I think I may now have AT). My right elbow relapsed over 1 1/2 years ago. I am definately prone to tendonitis conditions.

In April I had an infection and was prescribed the antibiotic Levaquin which left me with total-body tendonitis by day 3. I had to take Medrol (steroid) to resolve that. It left me with the PF and the tennis elbow (which is what I had prior to the Levaquin).

I had blood tests for Rheumatoid Factor, Lupus and a SEDS test...all negative. But, I know something is going on here that modern medicine hasn't discovered yet.


Re: Antibiotics

Terry on 8/11/00 at 00:02 (025181)

I came across this on Levaquin. 'Levofloxacin or Levaquin is a quinolone antibiotic and these antibiotics seem to be involed in joint problems, specifically tendinitis, thus people at increased risk for this type of problem should be closely monitored.' I tried to insert the article in this post but could not get it to work. Terry

Re: Antibiotics/Kim

Beverly on 8/11/00 at 00:04 (025182)

Kim,

I can't remember if I have already posted this, but if you want to read more about Floxin and that family of drugs, there is a book called 'Bitter Pills.' It tells one man's horror story that his wife endured after taking Floxin for a simple bladdar infection. And he researched a common thread between muscle pain, nurological problems, and other illnesses in other patients that were traced back to Floxin and Floxin family drugs.

I wish one of our doc's on the board would research this. I should have saved that news blurb I read. It was back in May. I think it was in 'The Dallas Morning News.'

I too am very prone to all manner of sprains, strains, and tendonitis.
I also had Epstein Barr my last sememster of grad school. So, I don't have a great immune system. I try to avoid antibiotics.

Kim, I have had several friends with either FM or chronic fatigue.
One of my chronic fatigue friends believes that she got this after taking several rounds of antibiotics for the flu.

Since I am also very prone to Candida, this is another reason I avoid antibiotics.

Like you, I would like to know more about these new generation antibiotics and their side effects.

Lately, I am meeting more and more women with either chronic fatigue or FM. It makes me believe that either this is something that has always been around but without a name or it is getting more common. With my Epstein Barr history, it is closer to home than I like to think about.

Beverly


Re: Where did you find this Terry?

Kim B. on 8/11/00 at 07:58 (025196)

can you give us a link? Can you higlight and copy, the paste it over here? Jus some suggestions. Thanks for looking into it.

Kim B.


Re: Where did you find this Terry?

Terry on 8/11/00 at 08:37 (025202)

Kim - I went into askjeeves.com and it was the first one at the bottom, I think. For some reason it would not let me copy and paste. See if it will let you. Terry

Re: combination

john h on 8/11/00 at 08:50 (025207)

for nearly all my life i have run, played basketball daily at noon time, gone barefooted in the house, on the beach and in the yard. wore shoes with zilch support. i would run barefooted in the sand on the beach for a couple of miles (blisters ouch). no problems. whenmy pf started i was running a lot up steep hills and my feet and body was probably just tired of being abused for a lifetime. of course i tried to run through the pain and it is no wonder that i have chronic pf.

Re: Levaquin

Levaquin on 8/11/00 at 09:18 (025211)

Kim - I started thinking, boy, that was really vague!
1 - askjeeves.com
2 - what is levaquin?
3 - click on the first on at the bottom, the one with 5 people.
Terry

Re: To Beverly... one other thing about my Floxin experience

Barbara on 8/11/00 at 09:26 (025212)

I developed the total-body tendonitis on day 3 of taking the Levaquin. My MD couldn't/wouldn't undertand. I did my own research and found a web site full of people (I'm talking hundreds) relaying their Levaquin side effect stories. It was really scarey reading all of them. I did further research and found that tendonitis and tendon rupture is a side effect of this and other similar-type antibiotics (Levaquin listed them on their product summary sheet).

Re: Quinolone Antibiotics

Barbara on 8/11/00 at 09:40 (025215)

Here is the web site for Levaquin side effects:

http://www.tropicalpenguin.com/health/forum/messages/241.html


Re: an interesting theory.........

john h on 8/11/00 at 12:15 (025238)

'unresolved issues?' ummm? her name is mary. good thing she has not figured out how to get to this message board or she would resolve my issue.