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Opinions on to do this.

Posted by Dr. Zuckerman on 9/09/00 at 22:09 (027779)

AS you all know by now I am offering one free treatment per month to any needy ESWT patient that needs both the treatment and need a way to pay for this. This is very difficult for Dr. Z to determine. I want some ways to either do this or how about having a contest to have one free treatment and or reduce the fee by substracting whatevery cost the hotel and or airfare cost. With the money left over I could build a fund for the needy.

Please help me. I want to help but I don't want to hurt anyones feelings or make the a mistake by someone tricking me, and then a needy person not getting help

My first inclination was to pick someone that is on diability and could benefit from this treatment. I really don't know if this is the way to go. So I am throwing out some ideas. If anyone wants to give me an idea please do.

Re: Opinions on how to do this.

Dr. Zuckerman on 9/09/00 at 22:15 (027780)

Right at this moment it is any pf suffer that is on disability can get a free treatment for the month of Sept. Just e-mail me at (email removed) YOu will have to prove that you are on disability to be fair.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Bob G. on 9/09/00 at 22:30 (027782)

How about somebody that has already qualified for County Medical Assistance. Ten years ago I went through the process to get medical attention. I had to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that I qualified as low income and did not have the resources to pay.

As I recall, the County gave me a document that I took to the Doctor. I got the needed medical attention and the County paid for it.

Just an idea that I hope helps. Thank you, Doctor Z! BG

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Kim B. on 9/09/00 at 23:35 (027785)

Dr. Z,

This is a tough one. However, as usual, you can count on me for my 2 cents worth.

Even for people who are not 'needy' ESWT is a huge expense and a bit of a gamble (as we have discussed). Since YOUR specific expertise is prefered by many of us, for those of us who live far away, hotel and air-fair make the cost even more difficult to bear. I agree that the 'needy' need to be looked out for. But people with disabilities come in all shapes, sizes and economic backgrounds. And, personally, I think the 'needy' are already allowed a wealth of GREAT U.S. Government sponsored programs. Medical, Dental, Financial, Educational, etc.

I feel for everyone who gets this illness, including the 'working poor', those who are on the verge of loosing good jobs due to poor performance and Moms and Dads who's children's only childhoods are being affected my their parent's PF.

I guess 'needy' is in the eye of the beholder. Besides, it is my understanding that this is a very difficult illness to obtain even temporary disability status for. Disability status requires that you are going to die from the illnes or that is expected to last a year or more. Most of the time, our doctors expect us to be completely optimistic that any day now, we are going to win our battle against the PF monster.

Maybe, 'the PF needy' is this case should be determinied by the (documented) length of diagnosis, conservative treatments tried and failed, and some sort of willingness to 'play the good deed forward' (help serve the PF board for a time, increase foot pain awareness', things like that), lots of things could make up the criteria.

Regardless of ecomomics, how can someone who has PF for 3 months be more needy than a 2 year sufferer? The two year sufferer is probably closer to going insane over the whole thing, in my opinion, because, to me, PF is often like Chinese torture.

My other suggestions are to have a montly ESWT Lotto, A montly essay contest, or allow 2 nominations per month from the board participants. (This month, I nominate Salina and Me, btw, :-)

Another idea is the good old, 'Enter to Win' drawing where one name will be drawn each month, perferably with a min. six month expiration date, which would give folks a chance to arrange transprotation and acccomodations ($$$). That could be a very fair way to do it. Hopefully, the folks who can comfortably afford it wouldn't throw their names into the hat, increasing the odds for those who can't.

I welcome any and all feedback to this post. Regards to all, and please forgive me if this post seems at all 'selfish'. Kim B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Dr. Zuckerman on 9/10/00 at 07:06 (027803)

This is the kind of information and view point that I like to hear.
I am just talking and will assure you that this is going to happen one free orbasone . Now do you save someone before they die ( diability or lost of family time, depression etc.) or do you try to save them from further death. I do think that the personal situation is very important. I would prefer the enter to win that way all I have to do is perform the treatment and concentrate on the patients.
I know this is the easy way out but I don't like playing g-d who gets help and who doesn't. Lets keep talking about this for a few days and see where this goes. I like your ideas and two cents. Sorry about the vioxx scare.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

alan k on 9/10/00 at 07:37 (027806)

That was a whole bunch of great and imaginitive suggestions.

I wonder if Dr. Z's first idea about income tax returns is not a bad idea? He could look them over and an accompanying letter to determine financial eligibility.

I think financial eligibility should be the first pre-requisite,
after that, the person probably should have posted a minumum of 10 posts per month for at least two months (or some other level).

Here's my two cents: 1) make a financial elibility screen and 2) a participation screen.

Once you have determined who the eligible and interested persons are, you could rank them by financial need and knock them off that way.

However, I really would not like to see a popularity nomination thing, because that could hurt peoples' feelings.

I make these suggestions without self-interest as I would not qualify medically or financially.


alan k

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Pauline on 9/10/00 at 09:57 (027810)

Kim,
Your suggestion I think has a lot of merit. It seems like it would
get the job done without government intervention. I can just immagine the problems if Dr. Z started going to Gov. Agencies and
trying to get information to check a persons needness.

Dr. Zuckerman's offer is extremely generous and wonderful, I hate to
think of people taking advantage of this offer. If the person is truely needy unless they live in his state how they would even pay
for their trip to see him. Perhaps Dr. Z himself or staff would have to personally determine the eligibility of a patient based on personal contact from folks living in his area.

Maybe this is just a start and as more Dr.s offer this treatment option others will follow Dr.Z offer in their state or city.

Truely a start, Dr. Z has got to know what a difference his treatment could make in another person's life. That's got to be a definate 'high'.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

Kim B. on 9/10/00 at 11:00 (027817)

Dr. Z and All,

Like I said, there are tons of working class, middle income people who need this surgery almost desperately. It would not be fair for a two month sufferer on welfar to get bumped ahead of someone who had had this 9 months and goes to work everyday on terribly painful feet. though both of them may need it equally.

I currently don't work outside the home, so I am not talking about me. I don't think I meet the medical criteria for EWST at this time anyway, because, a)I haven't had cortizone injection in the PF yet to see if I get some relief from that, and b) it is very difficult to locate the spot on the bottom of my feet these days. My arch still hurts like crazy, but the spur spot has dimininised greatly. I hope this means I am in a heeling mode.

I just haven't had the nerve to get the shots so far, but if it will determine if I am a good candidate for EWST, that might be another good reason to move forward with that. Both my Internist and my Orthopedist have offered, but being afraid of a rupture, I keep chickening out.

So you see, my suggestions about how to do this were not totally self centered. Again, it seems everyone looks out for the needy poor, the rich have it made, and in my opinion, the middle class could use some some breaks too.

So, since we're still playing around with the ideas, we could say that if you meet the critera (which will be outlined) you can 'Enter to Win' a complementary EWST Surgery.

So the first elegibility criteria would be medical eligibility, which Dr.Z. would estabilish.

I think #2 criteria should be how long you've had a legitimate PF diagnosis, say a minimum of 9 months or more, whatever designates it as a chronic case that is probably not going to go away on it's own. Again Dr. Z would designate.

Since, being a long time poster here is like going to PF school, in some ways, I think Alan's suggestion is benefical, it assures at least some level of PF education.

I think in the beginnig, if someone wins the surgery, they just have to be willing to pay for and/or get funding for their transportation and lodging. Those close to Dr. Z definately have an advantage here. But then 'Play it Forward' (no, I haven't seen the movie yet). Help out here at the board, Modeate the chat if Scott needs help with that later, help us put together a non-profit foundation, make a donation to help with transportation for others less fortunate, organize a sit-in on the steps of Congress, I don't know.

Speaking of a foundation, we do need to get a PF Foundation going to help with those expenses for the truly needy, but that would take some time and work. That also lends itself to the ideas of the past like the Foot Pain Awareness Day, a PF convention, our sculpture ideas, etc... We need sponsors, Dr. Scholls, other Podiatrists, and all the things connected with foot pain.

I'm getting carried away, I don't mean to monopolize this topic. I just get so pumped up about the foot pain issure. I'll sit back and wait for others to comment. Please let me know if I am way off base.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

Nancy S. on 9/10/00 at 11:50 (027822)

Right on, Kim. I don't think you're off base at all -- I think you're right on base, and in plenty of time.
Nancy

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Barbara S. on 9/10/00 at 14:52 (027828)

Dr. Z - I think that the only way to determine true need (human nature being what it is) is a tax return, and taking into consideration how many dependents are in the family. Length of time you've had PF should not be a factor... some might have it mildly for years or can be disabled altogether in a few months. To make it easy for you, I would ask those who are interested in receiving a discount to submit a tax return and a short statement (1,000 words or less) explaining their need and extenuating circumstances, along with an estimated price travel expenses. Viola!

I am tempted to extend the discount to those whose brilliant metapysical insights and charming vingettes upon various and sundry PF topics have stirred the PF'ers to profound philosophical heights, but... I think I can charm the cash out of my husband eventually.

It is a generous thing that you're doing! B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Kim B. on 9/10/00 at 16:54 (027836)

Hi Alan,

I would caution againts having a posting minimum involved. We want quality of posts, not quanity, right? What you're suggesting could start a posting avalanch if someone was just trying to get their quota in. Just something to think about.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

JudyS on 9/10/00 at 17:07 (027837)

You're right, Dr. Z, it's too difficult for you to have to sort of assume a g-d role in the selection of a ESWT candidate. Given that all are equally needy (whether one chooses to pay for food, rent, baby's shoes or baby's college tuition over choosing ESWT, this is a high cost to 99% of the population) and equally deserving, why not just do it by lottery? It's simple and there are no judgements or hurt feelings. For instance, one might have a higher or lower income and higher or lower costs than the next PF sufferer, but they're both suffering equally as are their families.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

john a on 9/11/00 at 11:09 (027902)

There is an obvious remedy for the high cost of ESWT treatment, namely, charge less for it. If Doctor Z charges one fourth the price but thereby gets four times as many customers, he hasn't lost anything. This solution is fair for everyone, except perhaps to Doctor Z :-)

Re: Opinions on to do this.

john h on 9/11/00 at 16:04 (027931)

i go with the lottery method. i doubt there are many wealthy people on the board and anyone in pain is deserving of a treatment that may help them. getting into tax returns, paper work,etc. would be time consuming and make someone feel even worse to have to submit paper work that they were poor.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

john h on 9/11/00 at 16:21 (027933)

kim: i know there are those that have had different experiences but my cortisone shots were only mildly painful and relieved my foot pain for about 2 weeks. it also provided me with input as to where the pain was actually located. the doctors are usually very good at probing your foot and finding the location. my injection was from the side and they sprayed it first. take a really deep breath and it is over before you can say plantar fasciaitis. i think if you can reduce the pain with a cortisone shot it is somewhat of an indicator that eswt may help (dr z can comment on this). it is an accepted mode of treatment by poditrist,orthopedic surgeons.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

Kim B. on 9/11/00 at 17:14 (027947)

Dear John, John Deer,

You're right, I need to move forward at this point. Like you, I have good spells sometimes and I hate to aggravete the stituation when it seems to be on the upswing. I think the tender spot is burried down in there, and I'm afraid to inflame it.

Oddly, I have had trigger point injection in my neck and arms on various occasions, sometimes successful and sometimes it inflammed and aggreveted the nearby muscles. The exact kind of medicines used probably made a difference, and some day, I plan to get the records and compare the 'potions'. Thanks for your input.

One more thing. Both my Internist (who handles some of FM problems,) and my Orthopedist have both offered to give me 'PF' shots. Should I let one of them or seek a local Podiatrist? If it comes to this, I'm leaning toward the Orthopedist. What do yall think?

Regards, Kim B.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

john h on 9/11/00 at 18:29 (027954)

i would suspect the pod gives more than anyone which usually will mean he is more proficient. ask him to do it from the side and not the bottom. definitley would not let my GP/Internist do it as i do not think they do that many pf shots.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

john h on 9/11/00 at 18:31 (027955)

kim:' John Deer' is a maker of agriculture equipment. is there some psycho slip here?

Re: Yep...On purpose though. :-) eom.

Kim B. on 9/11/00 at 21:19 (027973)

eom

Re: Opinions on how to do this.

Dr. Zuckerman on 9/09/00 at 22:15 (027780)

Right at this moment it is any pf suffer that is on disability can get a free treatment for the month of Sept. Just e-mail me at (email removed) YOu will have to prove that you are on disability to be fair.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Bob G. on 9/09/00 at 22:30 (027782)

How about somebody that has already qualified for County Medical Assistance. Ten years ago I went through the process to get medical attention. I had to jump through a lot of hoops to prove that I qualified as low income and did not have the resources to pay.

As I recall, the County gave me a document that I took to the Doctor. I got the needed medical attention and the County paid for it.

Just an idea that I hope helps. Thank you, Doctor Z! BG

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Kim B. on 9/09/00 at 23:35 (027785)

Dr. Z,

This is a tough one. However, as usual, you can count on me for my 2 cents worth.

Even for people who are not 'needy' ESWT is a huge expense and a bit of a gamble (as we have discussed). Since YOUR specific expertise is prefered by many of us, for those of us who live far away, hotel and air-fair make the cost even more difficult to bear. I agree that the 'needy' need to be looked out for. But people with disabilities come in all shapes, sizes and economic backgrounds. And, personally, I think the 'needy' are already allowed a wealth of GREAT U.S. Government sponsored programs. Medical, Dental, Financial, Educational, etc.

I feel for everyone who gets this illness, including the 'working poor', those who are on the verge of loosing good jobs due to poor performance and Moms and Dads who's children's only childhoods are being affected my their parent's PF.

I guess 'needy' is in the eye of the beholder. Besides, it is my understanding that this is a very difficult illness to obtain even temporary disability status for. Disability status requires that you are going to die from the illnes or that is expected to last a year or more. Most of the time, our doctors expect us to be completely optimistic that any day now, we are going to win our battle against the PF monster.

Maybe, 'the PF needy' is this case should be determinied by the (documented) length of diagnosis, conservative treatments tried and failed, and some sort of willingness to 'play the good deed forward' (help serve the PF board for a time, increase foot pain awareness', things like that), lots of things could make up the criteria.

Regardless of ecomomics, how can someone who has PF for 3 months be more needy than a 2 year sufferer? The two year sufferer is probably closer to going insane over the whole thing, in my opinion, because, to me, PF is often like Chinese torture.

My other suggestions are to have a montly ESWT Lotto, A montly essay contest, or allow 2 nominations per month from the board participants. (This month, I nominate Salina and Me, btw, :-)

Another idea is the good old, 'Enter to Win' drawing where one name will be drawn each month, perferably with a min. six month expiration date, which would give folks a chance to arrange transprotation and acccomodations ($$$). That could be a very fair way to do it. Hopefully, the folks who can comfortably afford it wouldn't throw their names into the hat, increasing the odds for those who can't.

I welcome any and all feedback to this post. Regards to all, and please forgive me if this post seems at all 'selfish'. Kim B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Dr. Zuckerman on 9/10/00 at 07:06 (027803)

This is the kind of information and view point that I like to hear.
I am just talking and will assure you that this is going to happen one free orbasone . Now do you save someone before they die ( diability or lost of family time, depression etc.) or do you try to save them from further death. I do think that the personal situation is very important. I would prefer the enter to win that way all I have to do is perform the treatment and concentrate on the patients.
I know this is the easy way out but I don't like playing g-d who gets help and who doesn't. Lets keep talking about this for a few days and see where this goes. I like your ideas and two cents. Sorry about the vioxx scare.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

alan k on 9/10/00 at 07:37 (027806)

That was a whole bunch of great and imaginitive suggestions.

I wonder if Dr. Z's first idea about income tax returns is not a bad idea? He could look them over and an accompanying letter to determine financial eligibility.

I think financial eligibility should be the first pre-requisite,
after that, the person probably should have posted a minumum of 10 posts per month for at least two months (or some other level).

Here's my two cents: 1) make a financial elibility screen and 2) a participation screen.

Once you have determined who the eligible and interested persons are, you could rank them by financial need and knock them off that way.

However, I really would not like to see a popularity nomination thing, because that could hurt peoples' feelings.

I make these suggestions without self-interest as I would not qualify medically or financially.


alan k

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Pauline on 9/10/00 at 09:57 (027810)

Kim,
Your suggestion I think has a lot of merit. It seems like it would
get the job done without government intervention. I can just immagine the problems if Dr. Z started going to Gov. Agencies and
trying to get information to check a persons needness.

Dr. Zuckerman's offer is extremely generous and wonderful, I hate to
think of people taking advantage of this offer. If the person is truely needy unless they live in his state how they would even pay
for their trip to see him. Perhaps Dr. Z himself or staff would have to personally determine the eligibility of a patient based on personal contact from folks living in his area.

Maybe this is just a start and as more Dr.s offer this treatment option others will follow Dr.Z offer in their state or city.

Truely a start, Dr. Z has got to know what a difference his treatment could make in another person's life. That's got to be a definate 'high'.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

Kim B. on 9/10/00 at 11:00 (027817)

Dr. Z and All,

Like I said, there are tons of working class, middle income people who need this surgery almost desperately. It would not be fair for a two month sufferer on welfar to get bumped ahead of someone who had had this 9 months and goes to work everyday on terribly painful feet. though both of them may need it equally.

I currently don't work outside the home, so I am not talking about me. I don't think I meet the medical criteria for EWST at this time anyway, because, a)I haven't had cortizone injection in the PF yet to see if I get some relief from that, and b) it is very difficult to locate the spot on the bottom of my feet these days. My arch still hurts like crazy, but the spur spot has dimininised greatly. I hope this means I am in a heeling mode.

I just haven't had the nerve to get the shots so far, but if it will determine if I am a good candidate for EWST, that might be another good reason to move forward with that. Both my Internist and my Orthopedist have offered, but being afraid of a rupture, I keep chickening out.

So you see, my suggestions about how to do this were not totally self centered. Again, it seems everyone looks out for the needy poor, the rich have it made, and in my opinion, the middle class could use some some breaks too.

So, since we're still playing around with the ideas, we could say that if you meet the critera (which will be outlined) you can 'Enter to Win' a complementary EWST Surgery.

So the first elegibility criteria would be medical eligibility, which Dr.Z. would estabilish.

I think #2 criteria should be how long you've had a legitimate PF diagnosis, say a minimum of 9 months or more, whatever designates it as a chronic case that is probably not going to go away on it's own. Again Dr. Z would designate.

Since, being a long time poster here is like going to PF school, in some ways, I think Alan's suggestion is benefical, it assures at least some level of PF education.

I think in the beginnig, if someone wins the surgery, they just have to be willing to pay for and/or get funding for their transportation and lodging. Those close to Dr. Z definately have an advantage here. But then 'Play it Forward' (no, I haven't seen the movie yet). Help out here at the board, Modeate the chat if Scott needs help with that later, help us put together a non-profit foundation, make a donation to help with transportation for others less fortunate, organize a sit-in on the steps of Congress, I don't know.

Speaking of a foundation, we do need to get a PF Foundation going to help with those expenses for the truly needy, but that would take some time and work. That also lends itself to the ideas of the past like the Foot Pain Awareness Day, a PF convention, our sculpture ideas, etc... We need sponsors, Dr. Scholls, other Podiatrists, and all the things connected with foot pain.

I'm getting carried away, I don't mean to monopolize this topic. I just get so pumped up about the foot pain issure. I'll sit back and wait for others to comment. Please let me know if I am way off base.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

Nancy S. on 9/10/00 at 11:50 (027822)

Right on, Kim. I don't think you're off base at all -- I think you're right on base, and in plenty of time.
Nancy

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Barbara S. on 9/10/00 at 14:52 (027828)

Dr. Z - I think that the only way to determine true need (human nature being what it is) is a tax return, and taking into consideration how many dependents are in the family. Length of time you've had PF should not be a factor... some might have it mildly for years or can be disabled altogether in a few months. To make it easy for you, I would ask those who are interested in receiving a discount to submit a tax return and a short statement (1,000 words or less) explaining their need and extenuating circumstances, along with an estimated price travel expenses. Viola!

I am tempted to extend the discount to those whose brilliant metapysical insights and charming vingettes upon various and sundry PF topics have stirred the PF'ers to profound philosophical heights, but... I think I can charm the cash out of my husband eventually.

It is a generous thing that you're doing! B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

Kim B. on 9/10/00 at 16:54 (027836)

Hi Alan,

I would caution againts having a posting minimum involved. We want quality of posts, not quanity, right? What you're suggesting could start a posting avalanch if someone was just trying to get their quota in. Just something to think about.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

JudyS on 9/10/00 at 17:07 (027837)

You're right, Dr. Z, it's too difficult for you to have to sort of assume a g-d role in the selection of a ESWT candidate. Given that all are equally needy (whether one chooses to pay for food, rent, baby's shoes or baby's college tuition over choosing ESWT, this is a high cost to 99% of the population) and equally deserving, why not just do it by lottery? It's simple and there are no judgements or hurt feelings. For instance, one might have a higher or lower income and higher or lower costs than the next PF sufferer, but they're both suffering equally as are their families.

Re: Opinions on to do this.

john a on 9/11/00 at 11:09 (027902)

There is an obvious remedy for the high cost of ESWT treatment, namely, charge less for it. If Doctor Z charges one fourth the price but thereby gets four times as many customers, he hasn't lost anything. This solution is fair for everyone, except perhaps to Doctor Z :-)

Re: Opinions on to do this.

john h on 9/11/00 at 16:04 (027931)

i go with the lottery method. i doubt there are many wealthy people on the board and anyone in pain is deserving of a treatment that may help them. getting into tax returns, paper work,etc. would be time consuming and make someone feel even worse to have to submit paper work that they were poor.

Re: More suggestions and clarification

john h on 9/11/00 at 16:21 (027933)

kim: i know there are those that have had different experiences but my cortisone shots were only mildly painful and relieved my foot pain for about 2 weeks. it also provided me with input as to where the pain was actually located. the doctors are usually very good at probing your foot and finding the location. my injection was from the side and they sprayed it first. take a really deep breath and it is over before you can say plantar fasciaitis. i think if you can reduce the pain with a cortisone shot it is somewhat of an indicator that eswt may help (dr z can comment on this). it is an accepted mode of treatment by poditrist,orthopedic surgeons.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

Kim B. on 9/11/00 at 17:14 (027947)

Dear John, John Deer,

You're right, I need to move forward at this point. Like you, I have good spells sometimes and I hate to aggravete the stituation when it seems to be on the upswing. I think the tender spot is burried down in there, and I'm afraid to inflame it.

Oddly, I have had trigger point injection in my neck and arms on various occasions, sometimes successful and sometimes it inflammed and aggreveted the nearby muscles. The exact kind of medicines used probably made a difference, and some day, I plan to get the records and compare the 'potions'. Thanks for your input.

One more thing. Both my Internist (who handles some of FM problems,) and my Orthopedist have both offered to give me 'PF' shots. Should I let one of them or seek a local Podiatrist? If it comes to this, I'm leaning toward the Orthopedist. What do yall think?

Regards, Kim B.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

john h on 9/11/00 at 18:29 (027954)

i would suspect the pod gives more than anyone which usually will mean he is more proficient. ask him to do it from the side and not the bottom. definitley would not let my GP/Internist do it as i do not think they do that many pf shots.

Re: John and all, who should administer shots for me?

john h on 9/11/00 at 18:31 (027955)

kim:' John Deer' is a maker of agriculture equipment. is there some psycho slip here?

Re: Yep...On purpose though. :-) eom.

Kim B. on 9/11/00 at 21:19 (027973)

eom