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Alan, Mike: CALM DOWN/BE PROFESSIONAL PLEASE

Posted by VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 07:17 (028507)

Alan and Mike: Please, take a deep breath and count to ten before you fire off your posts to this board...you aren't helping anyone with this and neither one of you 'looks good' carrying on in this manner.

Alan,
It would be helpful, I believe, to make it clear what your education and training have been that make you an expert on foot, leg anatomy and exercises. 'Twelve years of practise' don't tell me much in the way of your understanding of biomechanics, physiology, anatomy, exercise science, etc.

And, by the way, I think you over reacted to Mike's posting ...it didn't seem to me that he was attacking you at all... but raising some legitimate questions in an attempt to ANSWER A QUESTION DIRECTED AT HIM by another poster, and then Mike, you overreacted to his post, etc etc etc. It should be clear to you Alan that the majority of the posts by others regarding your products are highly positive...Mike brought up some questions that I thought were legitimate, in an objective manner, admitting he hadn't actually handled your product...and you could have answered/corrected him in a factual manner without turning this into an attact session. Mike, you threw gas on the fire Alan lit.

Please, guys, both of you need to calm down, stop taking everything so personally and accusing each other and just present the facts. Knee jerk reactions never lead to clear, or professional responses (I ought to know,I've made plenty of them myself) Neither one of you look very good in your last exchange.

I respect and wish you both the best
VickiJ

Re: CALM DOWN PLEASE

alan k on 9/18/00 at 08:20 (028508)

I don't see the need to bring this up again, and in all capital letters. Just let it be. I hope everyone will take in stride a couple of posts that are now down in the list in exchange for two exercise tools that can do a lot for people in pain.

I had to answer the things he was saying because they were untrue, and it was easy to point out why, point for point. I have to defend the product if untrue things are said, and state the facts. I will continue to do so. I feel I should be able to, as I have devoted so much time to heelspurs.com-- as much or more than anyone.

In answer to your question,
our practice of Thai massage, yoga and meditation is what has aids us in identifying how to stretch, strengthen, and massage, as well as adopt the right mental attitude toward exercise. Yoga is probably a 5,000 year old art of stretching. Thai massage maybe 3,000. Thai meditation is 2,500 years old. We know how to stretch and condition muscles, and stand by our product and its instructions. If someone wants to stick only to Western medicine (which however is catching up with Thai massage) that is their choice. It is good to have choices.

Some people enjoy the debate-- but I do understand why some would not.
I am hoping this will all die down now, and hopefully this thread will disappear soon too.


good luck to you,

alan k
http://www.acutai.com

.

Re: Calm Down...better?

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 09:21 (028511)

Alan,

I brought this up again because niether you or Mike seems to know how to 'debate' while taking the higher ground...that is, without criticizing the other unneccesarily....if you are/were truly interested in things 'dying down' why did you start it all up again by starting your response to his post by calling him 'the aggresive Mike we all know from before'...that was inflammatory. Where's that famous 'center' you yoga masters are supposed to be famous for? Yes, Alan, let it die down, quit bringing it up months later. YOu could have said 'there were some serious flaws in what you posted Mike, and I have to correct them so people will not be misled' rather than starting another round of attacks going back and forth.

And,telling me how old yoga is and how it has helped you does not answer my question...the fact that it is 'non traditional medicine' means that most of us do not understand how you learn anatomy, biomechanics and the science of exercise thru the 'practise' of massage, yoga, etc...and I am not asking this an any accusing way whatsoever...I just want to know what is your training and educational background so we can accept your claim to know how to teach us how to properly exercise and stretch our bodies/feet? What school did you attend? Or what masters have you studied with? Perhaps there is some sort of extensive training and certification process to become the type of practioner you are...I have no idea and I imagine a lot of people who read/post here don't either. Don't assume that because you are a master at yoga, Thai massage, whatever and these practises have been healing people for thousands of years... and a very nice person... that we should trust everything you preach. Please post on this site what your training and education are (credentials, if you will)for creating/ selling a device that claims to help pf.

For example, I believe in the power of herbal medicine, but I don't just go to a store a buy a bunch of bottles that have claims to help me with my 'ailments'...I read from or talk to people who have studied herbal medicine first and get their prescriptions/advice first and if they are not 'traditionally' trained, I check out the source and credibility of their training before I put their herbal recommendations in my mouth.

I am not accusing you of anything...in actuality I think your device is probably very helpful...and even tho I don't wish to buy one, I thought it would help people who read this board and don't bother to go to your web site to know more about your training...I trust physical therapists more than I do doctors, but I don't blindly trust all physical therapists...massage has helped me tremendously, but I don't go to anyone who simply 'hangs up a shingle' that he is a massage therapist...so, please, don't take offense at my prodding, ...I actually thought it would give you more credibility to newcomers and first time readers (and those just begining to investigate alternatives to standard therapies) if they could see your extensive credentials in the midst of your angry response.

both you and Mike are passionate believers in your own vision of what is the 'best medicine' and neither one of you would be any good at what you do if you weren't....but your interaction lately is passion carried too far.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Pauline on 9/18/00 at 10:51 (028519)

Well you can always count on me to add my two cents to this type of posting. I just seem to enjoy telling it like it is.
First of all this sounds like two kids both telling us their dad is bigger and better than the other ones. My personal opinion is that
both products deserve to be on this board and marketed. It's the American Way. Only the purchaser can really decide which one works best for them and because their decision is so individual no two may totally agree.

Some people took Vioxx with no problem and others threw it up. Does that mean that Vioxx shouldn't be tried? Absolutely not it means that some will like it and other will choose something else.

Each of your products have merit and are usefull to the people that purchase them. One is only better in the eyes of the inventor and the person who seem to be achieving benefit at the time they are using the product. I really don't think it is beneficial to have the product designers arguing over who's product is the most worthy one to purchase. I think after reading the material available the one who plans to purchases the product needs to make that decision.

Prov 3:30 Quarrel not with a man without cause, with one who has done you no harm.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Nancy S. on 9/18/00 at 11:46 (028523)

Remember, though, that diplomas sometimes mean zilch. For example, my ex-pod has a bunch of certificates and diplomas displayed on his wall. He knows nothing about educating and treating his PF patients.
Nancy

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 13:40 (028528)

but I also wouldn't consider implementing serious advice from someone who may only be self-taught....unless the advice was 'this is what worked for me...but you should see someone who is trained', or something similar. Training, credentials are never a guarantee, but they give some indication of the professional level I can/should expect, and that the person has been trained to analyze 'human bodies' other than his/herself.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

Paula on 9/18/00 at 15:25 (028537)

my two cents: hey guys i'm new to pf wiith a terrible case of it. i've spent a lot of money so far in 2 months on the usual. i was so turned off by the tone here that i decided against these items but now i see i must ignore aggressive attitudes and maybe buy them anyway. just wanted you guys to know that i and maybe others are repelled by anything here but kindness and niceness. we are suffering so much here that it would be good to be exposed to warm and fuzzy folk. like dr z and b. just present the facts to us, and if you can't make the tone nice, make it facrtual and neutral.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

Nancy S. on 9/18/00 at 16:18 (028545)

Vicki, I agree with you also. I wouldn't order a product over the Internet from someone merely self-taught and who I know nothing about. I tried Acu-Flex because Alan K is an anthropologist; has shown what I found to be a deep knowledge of the body through his history of posts on the board; has had years of yoga and massage study and training. Plus, I simply liked the product and what it can do, and knew that he had put a lot of experience, study, training, and intelligence into his development of it.
And the bottom line, it's working for me, just as you've posted that PFTs are working for you. I'm happy for anyone who finds relief in any way, and that certainly includes you. I wish you more luck and progress as you continue!
Best,
Nancy

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

Beverly on 9/18/00 at 16:44 (028547)

I did not take Alan and Mike's debate as negatively as the majority posting in response to it seemed to have taken it. They each feel very strongly about their product as being the superior product. I think they both truely believe in the benefits of their individual product.

I notice that it seems to mostly be the women on the board who are bothered by the manner of Mike and Alan's communication. We as women are taught from the earliest age to be 'polite.' Little boys are taught to 'duke it out on the playground' from the earliest age. We all grow up, but those early gender lessons are ingrained. Therefore, it is not surprising that women tend to become squeamish around conflict, and guys are ready to 'take to the playground.' Women tend to be better at negoiating. Guys tend to be better at direct confrontation. Both have their merits. It's that 'women are from Venus; men are from Mars thing'...

I learned alot more about both of their products as Mike and Alan verbally 'duked it out.' It did not bother me.

I will say that Mike's credentials as a physical therapist help give credibility to his PFT. It also helps me to know that he suffered from PF and developed the PFT as a result.

Alan's background in Eastern healing arts brings diversity to our board. However, I still see him as a layperson. If on the otherhand, he had a degree in Chinese medicine, acuptuncture, or was a registered massage therapist, I would see him as a professonal in the alternative health field. But an anthropolgist is an academic professional. That is something entirely outside the health realm... Western or Eastern. This does not mean his product is without merit. It simply means that at least for me with my 'prove it to me... show me the facts' Western personality, I need time to witness the merits of Acu-Flex from those of you braver than I... people like Nancy who are currently using it. And I remain curious. I may in the end, purchase the Acu-Flex. But PF mishaps have taught me to be cautious, and so I want to see how Dr. Z's patients do on it and how those of you using it progress.
Beverly

Re: thank you may I have another

alan k on 9/18/00 at 17:19 (028555)

About the reasonable question of credentials: I do not have a degree in yoga mastering. I would rather die than make spritual claims, which is against my practice. In making a decision about exercise, those who wish should take that into account.

About the message board, my wife and I worked very hard on this and I did depart from the dry factual tone that would have been best and I am sorry. I am human and not a yoga master. I am sure that other people would have been much better if they were in the same position. I did feel I had to correct mistatements of fact and wish I did that only. Can't take anything back on the internet.

People might count the number of messages and demeaning comments in these threads and see that it is spread pretty evenly all around.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

john h on 9/18/00 at 17:29 (028557)

hey! i buy anything that says it will help PF. I try anything that says it will help PF. Pf sucks! if you guys want to fight have at it. in the meantime if you have something new that will help pf let me know and i will buy it.

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

john h on 9/18/00 at 17:31 (028558)

beverly: actually i am from jupiter.

Re: PF Friends, Alan and Mike

Kim on 9/18/00 at 18:21 (028572)

First of all I'll refer to Wendyn's post called 'the Ongoing Debate' I agree with her totally.

Secondly, I think this has gotten out of hand and has turned into a pissing constest. I personally know guys that don't have to behave this way, so Beverly, I don't think we should call it 'a guy thing'. That let's them off the hook too easy.

I know I am no saint and I have had my share of 'cat fights' with other women in my time, and I'll be the first to admit that. I have tried to stay out of this mess, but, maybe you each need to see things from others' people's perspectives. Maybe that is what will help you the most.

Here is the bottom line. I am saddened by the fact that if we ever did have a PF or FOOT HEALTH AWARENESS CONVENTION, at this point, the two of you couldn't have booths across the room from each other without filling the room with animosity. Think how cordial you two would (hopefully) have to be to one another if we were all in the same room. Think of us all as 'guests' in Scott's home. You two should be 'friendly competitors'. Maybe 'the Rule' should be that if you can't say something nice about another guys' product, you are not allowed to reference the guys product in your post if you are a product manufacture. It seems to me that that should be common courtesy. What are you guys thinking? These are pratically adveritzments, and your audience is a VERY vulenrable group. We are in pain and we are sick of it.

You both have valid products and valid reasons for having developed and wanting to promote them. There is nothting wrong with wanting to make money and help others. For each of you this about your passion in life, I guess that way you both feel so passionate about the way the situation has evoled.

Another note, Nancy S. and I have had our share of spats about our difference. You know what guys? I think she and I have we found out that we actually have MORE IN COMMON than we have differences. Maybe that is the case with you guys. She and I put our diffences behind of the good of the board. We should expect no less from the two of you. This 'he said, she said' stuff is too petty for the caliber of men that I have come to know you two as. When in doubt, take the high road.

Regards to all, even those I have royally irked with this post. My apologies in advance. Kim B.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Sue S on 9/18/00 at 19:20 (028582)

You are right that diplomas don't always mean much. But you also have to take into consideration the information a person gives you. It is obvious that Mike W has a thorough knowledge of anatomy and physiology. He has given a lot of information to this board and not mentioning his product.

Re: Calm Down...better?

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 19:47 (028588)

Both Mike and Alan have given me valuable help...Alan's product was not available when I bought my PFT...or I may have considered it...Mike was incredibly generous and helpful to me as I struggled with injured elbows, etc trying to get used to the PFT...I have only good things to say about him and his product and service. and Alan's responses to my postings before now have been very positive...I just felt I had to say something to hopefully stem the downslide that was happening between the two good guys.

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

Barbara TX on 9/18/00 at 22:51 (028610)

I agree totally. I remember having a hard time in graduate school (in philosophy - usually a 'guy' profession) watching two guys argue in front of each other very heatedly over some topic. I thought that they might resolve the debate by slugging it out and I nearly began to cry. Afterwards they thought I was very silly for being so alarmed by everybody's 'feelings.' After all, this was a battle - and that's what guys do. And the fellow who proves himself more of a gentleman in combat - well, people are just more likely to be conviced by him (and buy his stuff). I say argue all you want, but just don't call one another liars or stupid. You just look like a silly children. Believe me, I have a five year old running around here and I know that act when I see it! B.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 04:01 (028622)

I want to leave this alone, but the main point seems to be getting lost.
Sue S: Yes, Mike has a traditional credential, physical therapist, and yes, he has definitely made some helpful posts without mentioning his product. He also made many many posts earlier that constantly mentioned his product -- and, more important, some of them dismissed other products, seemingly in hopes of sales.
Alan made one main post when his product became available. He then continued to make helpful posts, as before, but without mentioning his product or dismissing other people's products -- he followed Scott's rules.
Whether or not Mike was responding to someone's question when he posted a host of untruths about Acu-Flex is irrelevant. Any PERSON (not necessarily male) would have to correct those false statements -- it's his right (as Scott clearly states) and his responsibility to do that. I don't see this as a gender thing -- someone posted a lot of false information about a good product, and the person responsible for that product corrected the false information. I think any of us -- man, woman, or martian -- would do the same. _Should_ do the same. And if your product were denigrated in such a fashion, especially when you've followed the rules and been unpushy about marketing it on this board, I suspect you would be rather annoyed about the misinformation. I know I would be. I think it's universal, human, not gender related (my opinion).
If I had chosen Mike's product over Acu-Flex and were having success with it, I as a customer still would be quite taken aback by Mike's recent posts. And I don't want to be! I want and tend to think the best of people and their motives.
Nancy

Re: Calm Down...better?

Pauline on 9/19/00 at 05:00 (028625)

I hope people will do as much justice in the voting booth in November.
Alan if you had run for office you wouldn't have gotten this much flack.

Re: thanks

alan k on 9/19/00 at 08:24 (028638)

thanks Pauline.

You are new here but you are practically the only one left I feel comfortable talking to.

I really can't believe how I've been treated. Like a bug rather than a human being who has shared themself on this board for a year and a half.

alan k

Re: my apologies in advance........because......

JudyS on 9/19/00 at 10:02 (028652)

one, I should ignore today's postings re; Mike/Alan, but I've decided not to, two; it was me who started the current discourse, not Mike or Alan and, three; I didn't tell you everything.
When I started reading this Board last spring I was startled to see this very argument between Mike and a few board readers.....I was put off and wondered just what kind of forum this was. The argument seemed to have more to do with attitude than with product(s). I started reading almost on the same day that Nancy was posting a desire to stay away from the board as a result of attacks by Mike. That's why I'm throwing in another two cents here - because there should be no 'attacking'.
I got Mike's product, and, though I posted only part of my experience in order to be diplomatic the fact is that I just plain didn't like the product and a combination of things made me decide to return them. However, you may recall that in my posts I was as fair as I could be in citing my experience AND in encouraging others to check other posts about the product.
In spite of that Mike used this forum to tell me where I 'failed' in both my use of the product and in it's return. He even challenged my mental ability to read his instructions and use the product accordingly. While I don't necessarily think Mike is a mean-spirited person I do think he has no awareness of how his offensive-defensiveness and offensive critique really sound.
What you don't know is that Mike and I continued our sparing via email. In his ensuing email to me, he apologized for 'anything he said that would offend (me)' and then continued on to tell me what I did wrong. He even went so far as to tell me what my frame of mind was during the shipping return of his product. At no time has Mike, who used a misleading name and delivery info re: his product, who left no vehicle for communication or problem-solving in his office during his absence, taken ANY responsibility for that shipping problem. Instead, he continued to criticize me and UPS. My reaction to Mike on his second set of negative criticisms of me was to respond in kind. And, like Alan, and Nancy before, I started to think that I would just as soon stay away from this forum. After all, I thought, this forum is supposed to be 'safe' from that kind of aggression - especially on the part of a product manufacturer.
As I've read this current discourse I see one thing - Mike attacking and someone defending. I went back and looked at some of those posts from last spring, and I see Mike attacking both Nancy and Alan .....and at one point I read a statement Alan made about the effectiveness that Mike's product could have - which, by the way, I also said. Alan is factual, not critical, with his statement that Mike is up to his old aggressiveness.
I am a consumer. As such I know several things about Mike and Alan. Mike is a PT but I don't know his professional reputation. After being exposed to his kind of attack, I now question it. Alan is not a PT but I appreciate his experience and his support here. They both have a product. I can say with dead certainty that now, having been exposed to both of their attitudes, Alan would get my business long before Mike would just based on that.
Mike may have been 'invited' to compare his product with the Acu-Flex but he should have stopped with the statement 'I've never used the Acu-Flex'. As a professional, he has no right to attack a product that he's never handled especially in a sensitive forum such as this one.
Yes, I'm steamed. I'm steamed because, as a consumer, I've been manhandled by this manufacturer publicly. I'm steamed because he continues to use attack as his means of communication on this board. Now, perhaps Alan has denigrated Mike's product in the past and perhaps I didn't go back far enough to find it, but the most consistent thing I did find was Mike blasting anyone who dared to question him or his product.
As I said before, if Mike had any professionalism at all, he would have said one thing to me.....'Judy, so sorry for the problems, your refund is in the mail'. If he had, none of the current discourse would have taken place. I would have posted my experience and perhaps someone else (a regular, I hope) would have posted an opposite experience - just as we do with most products. We shouldn't be intimidated about sharing re: products supplied by fellow posters .
Perhaps, in the long run, manufacturers should not be allowed to 'tout' their products here at all and just be satisfied with their slot on Scott's product page. Then we could order and compare to our heart's content. If a producer sees a comparison he doesn't like, he can use this forum to encourage that customer to email him. For example, some of us like Birks, some of us don't.....but there are no Birk reps attacking anyone here! Other manufacturers do what Alan has done, they tell us why their product is a good one, period. really I mean it, period. I'm done! no more word hemmorage.. :)

Re: Credentials

Nancy N on 9/19/00 at 10:21 (028655)

I just have one comment about the credentials issue. Let's not forget that, while credentials do indicate a certain level of training, that is ALL they indicate. They do not tell you how well someone can put that training to use. They don't even guarantee that someone aced all their classes. I went to a licensed PT last year; he was not able to help me. I have been to two DPMs and three orthos and so far, they have not been able to help me (though I am still holding out hope for the ESWT guys). There are good doctors, PTs, etc out there, but there are also some who are not so good and not worth going to.

Conversely, haven't we all become far more educated about feet than we ever imagined? I am constantly amazed at how much technical information I can spout when someone asks me what's wrong with my foot. But I am not a doctor, or a PT, or anybody else in the medical field. To take it out of the medical context, I do technical support work, but my degree is in English Lit. Does this mean my knowledge, picked up from years of dealing with computers, is shoddy? I do my work well, but I do not have a degree to back it up. Should I be summarily dismissed?

Now, I am not suggesting you just go see your next-door neighbor the next time you have a medical problem. But it is possible for someone to amass a large body of knowledge about something without having a formal degree. That doesn't necessarily mean that one person is knows less than another, it just means that they don't have formal training.

Re: Credentials

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 10:59 (028660)

Very well said, Nancy N.! And much better than my puny post on the subject the other day. Thank you --
Nancy

Re: Alan

Kim B. on 9/19/00 at 11:05 (028663)

Alan, I'm sorry you feel that way. It seems like you and Mike are allowed to speak your mind to your hearts content, but the minute I do it, you feel alianated and squashed like a bug. That was truly not my intention.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: Credentials

VickiJ on 9/19/00 at 12:01 (028669)

Again, I agree, but when it comes to arguments here on the board regarding exercises, stretching and yes, products, I think it is very helpful to know where a person is coming from...and exactly what their experience has entailed. And, quite frankly, I would take the recommendations of a licensed physical therapist who has cured his own pf and has been instrumental in helping others get back on their feet from pf over a self-taught exercise specialist....tho I would not discount this last person's value or input at all...nor would I berate a product they invented. But, I would lean more heavily toward the successful and reputable licensed individual than the self taught individual...yes, Mike over Alan...but I would still listen and consider carefully all of Alan's input.

Re: thanks

VickiJ on 9/19/00 at 12:16 (028672)

Hey Alan, It was only a fight...and you both ended up with mud on your faces...you were the one to ressurect past insults and you got insulted back...so please stop playing the part of the martyr...your're a great guy and better than all of this...so is Mike...take the higher road and let it go. Hard, unfair stuff happens between people...more easily, it seems on boards than face to face. It's very obvious that you have a lot of respect here from a lot of people. Don't let this keep you down. Some of the hardest interchanges...even the unfair ones... can teach us a great deal about ourselves and make us stronger.


VickiJ

Re: thanks

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 12:38 (028673)

Vicki, how about going back to Mike's original post and reading the insults and trashing of a product he's never even seen or used. Then put yourself in Alan's (or even an objective reader's) place: Can you honestly say that it wasn't offensive or aggressive? Do you really believe that it was an 'objective' comparison, and that there were no selfish motives behind it? Do you really see no misleading statements? I know Mike has been helpful to you personally, but the above stuff seems pretty hard to miss.
Nancy

Re: Credentials

Nancy N on 9/19/00 at 12:42 (028675)

VickiI think your word 'reputable' is key. (And to reiterate, I'm not at all saying that the input of doctors or other medical professionals is in any way a bad thing.) For example, I only know of Dr. Z's reputation from the things he has posted here and from what people who've seen him have to say, and I would say based on that evidence that he is reputable (in fact, I wish he were closer to where I live, as I would guess a lot of us do). But I don't know anything at all about Mike's reputation, I only know that he is a PT. For me, I need to know more about what he's accomplished and if his patients view him as helpful or not. And frankly, the 'aggressive' attitude doesn't help his case any.

Again, I'm NOT saying that Mike's product isn't helpful or that he doesn't know what he's doing (and perhaps this is a bad example, but it's the best I have). I'm just saying that I don't know enough about Mike to say that his background and expertise is any better than anyone else's, and so I weigh things accordingly.

Re: my apologies in advance........because......

Susan S on 9/19/00 at 15:58 (028685)

You Go Girl! And you are not the only person that has noticed the 'trend'. Perhaps you are right and Scott should discourage the product hawking.....

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

Beverly on 9/19/00 at 16:14 (028686)

It seems like we've all expressed our opinions (some of us, myself included, several times). Isn't it time to just drop this?
Beverly

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

JudyS on 9/19/00 at 16:24 (028687)

Meanwhile, back at the gourmet TexBev ranch, what's new with your PT this week, Beverly? Are you hobbling about much? More than last week? I played an hour of softball last nite and got at least one sore foot. I totally expected both to be stiff and sore this AM - but they weren't! In fact, one was completely loose and pain-free when I started my 'in-bed-still' warmups! I'm so convinced that this on-going deep massage is doing the trick (that and consistent self treatment) - now I'm hugely afraid that my PT prescription will run out before the task is complete!

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

SueS on 9/19/00 at 18:25 (028703)

OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And such LONG posts. I think we know each persons opinion, which ins't going to changs. Time to move on.

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

Pauline on 9/20/00 at 08:32 (028724)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Remember this folks?
I think the people bashing has continued long enough. My personal
opinion is let the products speak for themselves. Details of any business, care & proper use, returns etc should be handled via personal e-mail. This board should be kept free of harmful
remarms made about anyone purchasing these products or selling them.
If you are selling a service or product you should be willing to post a personal e-mail address and those buying the product should use this address to handle all personal business concerning the product.

As to who's product is best--- This depends on the individual using that particular product. It is simply the opinion of that person who spent the money. Will it be the answer for everyone, not necessarily.
You pay your money and take your chances based on what you have read and heard from others in your life. Should you be able to post about your experiences? Certainly, keep it honest. Should you be able to rebuke a negative experience? Certainly but it shouldn't get personal, especially not by the manufacturer. Do credentials count?
It depends on how important it is to you. Certainly if you plan to to see a Dr. you would want the person to have credentials---on the other hand you purchase many different shoes to help with PF and never require any. I guess what I am trying to say is that any product be it shoes, the Acu-Flex, the PFT, the emu oil are items we try a sufferers of PF. This is our personal choice we shouldn't be bashed for purchasing them and we should bash the manufacturer for selling them.

Re: Hi Nancy

VickiJ on 9/20/00 at 16:34 (028766)

I was going to respond to your questions, but as others have said I guess it's time to quit this 'string'...point of view is always colored by how well I think I know someone...I know Mike better than I know Alan and so I didn't see the issue 'in the same (trashing) light' as Alan or you or others who know Alan really well from the board.
Anyway, that's my last word on the issue. And I really do think Alan, and Mike are both good people.

Re: Hi Nancy

Nancy S. on 9/20/00 at 20:54 (028784)

Thanks for your post, Vicki. I'm sure many different things are factors in our opinions when things occasionally get emotional on the board. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that -- and continue to respect one another.
With respect, and I do hope you make continued progress, I know it's been a long haul --
Nancy

Re: CALM DOWN PLEASE

alan k on 9/18/00 at 08:20 (028508)

I don't see the need to bring this up again, and in all capital letters. Just let it be. I hope everyone will take in stride a couple of posts that are now down in the list in exchange for two exercise tools that can do a lot for people in pain.

I had to answer the things he was saying because they were untrue, and it was easy to point out why, point for point. I have to defend the product if untrue things are said, and state the facts. I will continue to do so. I feel I should be able to, as I have devoted so much time to heelspurs.com-- as much or more than anyone.

In answer to your question,
our practice of Thai massage, yoga and meditation is what has aids us in identifying how to stretch, strengthen, and massage, as well as adopt the right mental attitude toward exercise. Yoga is probably a 5,000 year old art of stretching. Thai massage maybe 3,000. Thai meditation is 2,500 years old. We know how to stretch and condition muscles, and stand by our product and its instructions. If someone wants to stick only to Western medicine (which however is catching up with Thai massage) that is their choice. It is good to have choices.

Some people enjoy the debate-- but I do understand why some would not.
I am hoping this will all die down now, and hopefully this thread will disappear soon too.


good luck to you,

alan k
http://www.acutai.com

.

Re: Calm Down...better?

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 09:21 (028511)

Alan,

I brought this up again because niether you or Mike seems to know how to 'debate' while taking the higher ground...that is, without criticizing the other unneccesarily....if you are/were truly interested in things 'dying down' why did you start it all up again by starting your response to his post by calling him 'the aggresive Mike we all know from before'...that was inflammatory. Where's that famous 'center' you yoga masters are supposed to be famous for? Yes, Alan, let it die down, quit bringing it up months later. YOu could have said 'there were some serious flaws in what you posted Mike, and I have to correct them so people will not be misled' rather than starting another round of attacks going back and forth.

And,telling me how old yoga is and how it has helped you does not answer my question...the fact that it is 'non traditional medicine' means that most of us do not understand how you learn anatomy, biomechanics and the science of exercise thru the 'practise' of massage, yoga, etc...and I am not asking this an any accusing way whatsoever...I just want to know what is your training and educational background so we can accept your claim to know how to teach us how to properly exercise and stretch our bodies/feet? What school did you attend? Or what masters have you studied with? Perhaps there is some sort of extensive training and certification process to become the type of practioner you are...I have no idea and I imagine a lot of people who read/post here don't either. Don't assume that because you are a master at yoga, Thai massage, whatever and these practises have been healing people for thousands of years... and a very nice person... that we should trust everything you preach. Please post on this site what your training and education are (credentials, if you will)for creating/ selling a device that claims to help pf.

For example, I believe in the power of herbal medicine, but I don't just go to a store a buy a bunch of bottles that have claims to help me with my 'ailments'...I read from or talk to people who have studied herbal medicine first and get their prescriptions/advice first and if they are not 'traditionally' trained, I check out the source and credibility of their training before I put their herbal recommendations in my mouth.

I am not accusing you of anything...in actuality I think your device is probably very helpful...and even tho I don't wish to buy one, I thought it would help people who read this board and don't bother to go to your web site to know more about your training...I trust physical therapists more than I do doctors, but I don't blindly trust all physical therapists...massage has helped me tremendously, but I don't go to anyone who simply 'hangs up a shingle' that he is a massage therapist...so, please, don't take offense at my prodding, ...I actually thought it would give you more credibility to newcomers and first time readers (and those just begining to investigate alternatives to standard therapies) if they could see your extensive credentials in the midst of your angry response.

both you and Mike are passionate believers in your own vision of what is the 'best medicine' and neither one of you would be any good at what you do if you weren't....but your interaction lately is passion carried too far.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Pauline on 9/18/00 at 10:51 (028519)

Well you can always count on me to add my two cents to this type of posting. I just seem to enjoy telling it like it is.
First of all this sounds like two kids both telling us their dad is bigger and better than the other ones. My personal opinion is that
both products deserve to be on this board and marketed. It's the American Way. Only the purchaser can really decide which one works best for them and because their decision is so individual no two may totally agree.

Some people took Vioxx with no problem and others threw it up. Does that mean that Vioxx shouldn't be tried? Absolutely not it means that some will like it and other will choose something else.

Each of your products have merit and are usefull to the people that purchase them. One is only better in the eyes of the inventor and the person who seem to be achieving benefit at the time they are using the product. I really don't think it is beneficial to have the product designers arguing over who's product is the most worthy one to purchase. I think after reading the material available the one who plans to purchases the product needs to make that decision.

Prov 3:30 Quarrel not with a man without cause, with one who has done you no harm.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Nancy S. on 9/18/00 at 11:46 (028523)

Remember, though, that diplomas sometimes mean zilch. For example, my ex-pod has a bunch of certificates and diplomas displayed on his wall. He knows nothing about educating and treating his PF patients.
Nancy

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 13:40 (028528)

but I also wouldn't consider implementing serious advice from someone who may only be self-taught....unless the advice was 'this is what worked for me...but you should see someone who is trained', or something similar. Training, credentials are never a guarantee, but they give some indication of the professional level I can/should expect, and that the person has been trained to analyze 'human bodies' other than his/herself.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

Paula on 9/18/00 at 15:25 (028537)

my two cents: hey guys i'm new to pf wiith a terrible case of it. i've spent a lot of money so far in 2 months on the usual. i was so turned off by the tone here that i decided against these items but now i see i must ignore aggressive attitudes and maybe buy them anyway. just wanted you guys to know that i and maybe others are repelled by anything here but kindness and niceness. we are suffering so much here that it would be good to be exposed to warm and fuzzy folk. like dr z and b. just present the facts to us, and if you can't make the tone nice, make it facrtual and neutral.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

Nancy S. on 9/18/00 at 16:18 (028545)

Vicki, I agree with you also. I wouldn't order a product over the Internet from someone merely self-taught and who I know nothing about. I tried Acu-Flex because Alan K is an anthropologist; has shown what I found to be a deep knowledge of the body through his history of posts on the board; has had years of yoga and massage study and training. Plus, I simply liked the product and what it can do, and knew that he had put a lot of experience, study, training, and intelligence into his development of it.
And the bottom line, it's working for me, just as you've posted that PFTs are working for you. I'm happy for anyone who finds relief in any way, and that certainly includes you. I wish you more luck and progress as you continue!
Best,
Nancy

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

Beverly on 9/18/00 at 16:44 (028547)

I did not take Alan and Mike's debate as negatively as the majority posting in response to it seemed to have taken it. They each feel very strongly about their product as being the superior product. I think they both truely believe in the benefits of their individual product.

I notice that it seems to mostly be the women on the board who are bothered by the manner of Mike and Alan's communication. We as women are taught from the earliest age to be 'polite.' Little boys are taught to 'duke it out on the playground' from the earliest age. We all grow up, but those early gender lessons are ingrained. Therefore, it is not surprising that women tend to become squeamish around conflict, and guys are ready to 'take to the playground.' Women tend to be better at negoiating. Guys tend to be better at direct confrontation. Both have their merits. It's that 'women are from Venus; men are from Mars thing'...

I learned alot more about both of their products as Mike and Alan verbally 'duked it out.' It did not bother me.

I will say that Mike's credentials as a physical therapist help give credibility to his PFT. It also helps me to know that he suffered from PF and developed the PFT as a result.

Alan's background in Eastern healing arts brings diversity to our board. However, I still see him as a layperson. If on the otherhand, he had a degree in Chinese medicine, acuptuncture, or was a registered massage therapist, I would see him as a professonal in the alternative health field. But an anthropolgist is an academic professional. That is something entirely outside the health realm... Western or Eastern. This does not mean his product is without merit. It simply means that at least for me with my 'prove it to me... show me the facts' Western personality, I need time to witness the merits of Acu-Flex from those of you braver than I... people like Nancy who are currently using it. And I remain curious. I may in the end, purchase the Acu-Flex. But PF mishaps have taught me to be cautious, and so I want to see how Dr. Z's patients do on it and how those of you using it progress.
Beverly

Re: thank you may I have another

alan k on 9/18/00 at 17:19 (028555)

About the reasonable question of credentials: I do not have a degree in yoga mastering. I would rather die than make spritual claims, which is against my practice. In making a decision about exercise, those who wish should take that into account.

About the message board, my wife and I worked very hard on this and I did depart from the dry factual tone that would have been best and I am sorry. I am human and not a yoga master. I am sure that other people would have been much better if they were in the same position. I did feel I had to correct mistatements of fact and wish I did that only. Can't take anything back on the internet.

People might count the number of messages and demeaning comments in these threads and see that it is spread pretty evenly all around.

Re: Couldn't Agree More...

john h on 9/18/00 at 17:29 (028557)

hey! i buy anything that says it will help PF. I try anything that says it will help PF. Pf sucks! if you guys want to fight have at it. in the meantime if you have something new that will help pf let me know and i will buy it.

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

john h on 9/18/00 at 17:31 (028558)

beverly: actually i am from jupiter.

Re: PF Friends, Alan and Mike

Kim on 9/18/00 at 18:21 (028572)

First of all I'll refer to Wendyn's post called 'the Ongoing Debate' I agree with her totally.

Secondly, I think this has gotten out of hand and has turned into a pissing constest. I personally know guys that don't have to behave this way, so Beverly, I don't think we should call it 'a guy thing'. That let's them off the hook too easy.

I know I am no saint and I have had my share of 'cat fights' with other women in my time, and I'll be the first to admit that. I have tried to stay out of this mess, but, maybe you each need to see things from others' people's perspectives. Maybe that is what will help you the most.

Here is the bottom line. I am saddened by the fact that if we ever did have a PF or FOOT HEALTH AWARENESS CONVENTION, at this point, the two of you couldn't have booths across the room from each other without filling the room with animosity. Think how cordial you two would (hopefully) have to be to one another if we were all in the same room. Think of us all as 'guests' in Scott's home. You two should be 'friendly competitors'. Maybe 'the Rule' should be that if you can't say something nice about another guys' product, you are not allowed to reference the guys product in your post if you are a product manufacture. It seems to me that that should be common courtesy. What are you guys thinking? These are pratically adveritzments, and your audience is a VERY vulenrable group. We are in pain and we are sick of it.

You both have valid products and valid reasons for having developed and wanting to promote them. There is nothting wrong with wanting to make money and help others. For each of you this about your passion in life, I guess that way you both feel so passionate about the way the situation has evoled.

Another note, Nancy S. and I have had our share of spats about our difference. You know what guys? I think she and I have we found out that we actually have MORE IN COMMON than we have differences. Maybe that is the case with you guys. She and I put our diffences behind of the good of the board. We should expect no less from the two of you. This 'he said, she said' stuff is too petty for the caliber of men that I have come to know you two as. When in doubt, take the high road.

Regards to all, even those I have royally irked with this post. My apologies in advance. Kim B.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Sue S on 9/18/00 at 19:20 (028582)

You are right that diplomas don't always mean much. But you also have to take into consideration the information a person gives you. It is obvious that Mike W has a thorough knowledge of anatomy and physiology. He has given a lot of information to this board and not mentioning his product.

Re: Calm Down...better?

VickiJ on 9/18/00 at 19:47 (028588)

Both Mike and Alan have given me valuable help...Alan's product was not available when I bought my PFT...or I may have considered it...Mike was incredibly generous and helpful to me as I struggled with injured elbows, etc trying to get used to the PFT...I have only good things to say about him and his product and service. and Alan's responses to my postings before now have been very positive...I just felt I had to say something to hopefully stem the downslide that was happening between the two good guys.

Re: Mike and Alan were simply "communicating" in a guy-like fashion

Barbara TX on 9/18/00 at 22:51 (028610)

I agree totally. I remember having a hard time in graduate school (in philosophy - usually a 'guy' profession) watching two guys argue in front of each other very heatedly over some topic. I thought that they might resolve the debate by slugging it out and I nearly began to cry. Afterwards they thought I was very silly for being so alarmed by everybody's 'feelings.' After all, this was a battle - and that's what guys do. And the fellow who proves himself more of a gentleman in combat - well, people are just more likely to be conviced by him (and buy his stuff). I say argue all you want, but just don't call one another liars or stupid. You just look like a silly children. Believe me, I have a five year old running around here and I know that act when I see it! B.

Re: Calm Down...better?

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 04:01 (028622)

I want to leave this alone, but the main point seems to be getting lost.
Sue S: Yes, Mike has a traditional credential, physical therapist, and yes, he has definitely made some helpful posts without mentioning his product. He also made many many posts earlier that constantly mentioned his product -- and, more important, some of them dismissed other products, seemingly in hopes of sales.
Alan made one main post when his product became available. He then continued to make helpful posts, as before, but without mentioning his product or dismissing other people's products -- he followed Scott's rules.
Whether or not Mike was responding to someone's question when he posted a host of untruths about Acu-Flex is irrelevant. Any PERSON (not necessarily male) would have to correct those false statements -- it's his right (as Scott clearly states) and his responsibility to do that. I don't see this as a gender thing -- someone posted a lot of false information about a good product, and the person responsible for that product corrected the false information. I think any of us -- man, woman, or martian -- would do the same. _Should_ do the same. And if your product were denigrated in such a fashion, especially when you've followed the rules and been unpushy about marketing it on this board, I suspect you would be rather annoyed about the misinformation. I know I would be. I think it's universal, human, not gender related (my opinion).
If I had chosen Mike's product over Acu-Flex and were having success with it, I as a customer still would be quite taken aback by Mike's recent posts. And I don't want to be! I want and tend to think the best of people and their motives.
Nancy

Re: Calm Down...better?

Pauline on 9/19/00 at 05:00 (028625)

I hope people will do as much justice in the voting booth in November.
Alan if you had run for office you wouldn't have gotten this much flack.

Re: thanks

alan k on 9/19/00 at 08:24 (028638)

thanks Pauline.

You are new here but you are practically the only one left I feel comfortable talking to.

I really can't believe how I've been treated. Like a bug rather than a human being who has shared themself on this board for a year and a half.

alan k

Re: my apologies in advance........because......

JudyS on 9/19/00 at 10:02 (028652)

one, I should ignore today's postings re; Mike/Alan, but I've decided not to, two; it was me who started the current discourse, not Mike or Alan and, three; I didn't tell you everything.
When I started reading this Board last spring I was startled to see this very argument between Mike and a few board readers.....I was put off and wondered just what kind of forum this was. The argument seemed to have more to do with attitude than with product(s). I started reading almost on the same day that Nancy was posting a desire to stay away from the board as a result of attacks by Mike. That's why I'm throwing in another two cents here - because there should be no 'attacking'.
I got Mike's product, and, though I posted only part of my experience in order to be diplomatic the fact is that I just plain didn't like the product and a combination of things made me decide to return them. However, you may recall that in my posts I was as fair as I could be in citing my experience AND in encouraging others to check other posts about the product.
In spite of that Mike used this forum to tell me where I 'failed' in both my use of the product and in it's return. He even challenged my mental ability to read his instructions and use the product accordingly. While I don't necessarily think Mike is a mean-spirited person I do think he has no awareness of how his offensive-defensiveness and offensive critique really sound.
What you don't know is that Mike and I continued our sparing via email. In his ensuing email to me, he apologized for 'anything he said that would offend (me)' and then continued on to tell me what I did wrong. He even went so far as to tell me what my frame of mind was during the shipping return of his product. At no time has Mike, who used a misleading name and delivery info re: his product, who left no vehicle for communication or problem-solving in his office during his absence, taken ANY responsibility for that shipping problem. Instead, he continued to criticize me and UPS. My reaction to Mike on his second set of negative criticisms of me was to respond in kind. And, like Alan, and Nancy before, I started to think that I would just as soon stay away from this forum. After all, I thought, this forum is supposed to be 'safe' from that kind of aggression - especially on the part of a product manufacturer.
As I've read this current discourse I see one thing - Mike attacking and someone defending. I went back and looked at some of those posts from last spring, and I see Mike attacking both Nancy and Alan .....and at one point I read a statement Alan made about the effectiveness that Mike's product could have - which, by the way, I also said. Alan is factual, not critical, with his statement that Mike is up to his old aggressiveness.
I am a consumer. As such I know several things about Mike and Alan. Mike is a PT but I don't know his professional reputation. After being exposed to his kind of attack, I now question it. Alan is not a PT but I appreciate his experience and his support here. They both have a product. I can say with dead certainty that now, having been exposed to both of their attitudes, Alan would get my business long before Mike would just based on that.
Mike may have been 'invited' to compare his product with the Acu-Flex but he should have stopped with the statement 'I've never used the Acu-Flex'. As a professional, he has no right to attack a product that he's never handled especially in a sensitive forum such as this one.
Yes, I'm steamed. I'm steamed because, as a consumer, I've been manhandled by this manufacturer publicly. I'm steamed because he continues to use attack as his means of communication on this board. Now, perhaps Alan has denigrated Mike's product in the past and perhaps I didn't go back far enough to find it, but the most consistent thing I did find was Mike blasting anyone who dared to question him or his product.
As I said before, if Mike had any professionalism at all, he would have said one thing to me.....'Judy, so sorry for the problems, your refund is in the mail'. If he had, none of the current discourse would have taken place. I would have posted my experience and perhaps someone else (a regular, I hope) would have posted an opposite experience - just as we do with most products. We shouldn't be intimidated about sharing re: products supplied by fellow posters .
Perhaps, in the long run, manufacturers should not be allowed to 'tout' their products here at all and just be satisfied with their slot on Scott's product page. Then we could order and compare to our heart's content. If a producer sees a comparison he doesn't like, he can use this forum to encourage that customer to email him. For example, some of us like Birks, some of us don't.....but there are no Birk reps attacking anyone here! Other manufacturers do what Alan has done, they tell us why their product is a good one, period. really I mean it, period. I'm done! no more word hemmorage.. :)

Re: Credentials

Nancy N on 9/19/00 at 10:21 (028655)

I just have one comment about the credentials issue. Let's not forget that, while credentials do indicate a certain level of training, that is ALL they indicate. They do not tell you how well someone can put that training to use. They don't even guarantee that someone aced all their classes. I went to a licensed PT last year; he was not able to help me. I have been to two DPMs and three orthos and so far, they have not been able to help me (though I am still holding out hope for the ESWT guys). There are good doctors, PTs, etc out there, but there are also some who are not so good and not worth going to.

Conversely, haven't we all become far more educated about feet than we ever imagined? I am constantly amazed at how much technical information I can spout when someone asks me what's wrong with my foot. But I am not a doctor, or a PT, or anybody else in the medical field. To take it out of the medical context, I do technical support work, but my degree is in English Lit. Does this mean my knowledge, picked up from years of dealing with computers, is shoddy? I do my work well, but I do not have a degree to back it up. Should I be summarily dismissed?

Now, I am not suggesting you just go see your next-door neighbor the next time you have a medical problem. But it is possible for someone to amass a large body of knowledge about something without having a formal degree. That doesn't necessarily mean that one person is knows less than another, it just means that they don't have formal training.

Re: Credentials

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 10:59 (028660)

Very well said, Nancy N.! And much better than my puny post on the subject the other day. Thank you --
Nancy

Re: Alan

Kim B. on 9/19/00 at 11:05 (028663)

Alan, I'm sorry you feel that way. It seems like you and Mike are allowed to speak your mind to your hearts content, but the minute I do it, you feel alianated and squashed like a bug. That was truly not my intention.

Regards, Kim B.

Re: Credentials

VickiJ on 9/19/00 at 12:01 (028669)

Again, I agree, but when it comes to arguments here on the board regarding exercises, stretching and yes, products, I think it is very helpful to know where a person is coming from...and exactly what their experience has entailed. And, quite frankly, I would take the recommendations of a licensed physical therapist who has cured his own pf and has been instrumental in helping others get back on their feet from pf over a self-taught exercise specialist....tho I would not discount this last person's value or input at all...nor would I berate a product they invented. But, I would lean more heavily toward the successful and reputable licensed individual than the self taught individual...yes, Mike over Alan...but I would still listen and consider carefully all of Alan's input.

Re: thanks

VickiJ on 9/19/00 at 12:16 (028672)

Hey Alan, It was only a fight...and you both ended up with mud on your faces...you were the one to ressurect past insults and you got insulted back...so please stop playing the part of the martyr...your're a great guy and better than all of this...so is Mike...take the higher road and let it go. Hard, unfair stuff happens between people...more easily, it seems on boards than face to face. It's very obvious that you have a lot of respect here from a lot of people. Don't let this keep you down. Some of the hardest interchanges...even the unfair ones... can teach us a great deal about ourselves and make us stronger.


VickiJ

Re: thanks

Nancy S. on 9/19/00 at 12:38 (028673)

Vicki, how about going back to Mike's original post and reading the insults and trashing of a product he's never even seen or used. Then put yourself in Alan's (or even an objective reader's) place: Can you honestly say that it wasn't offensive or aggressive? Do you really believe that it was an 'objective' comparison, and that there were no selfish motives behind it? Do you really see no misleading statements? I know Mike has been helpful to you personally, but the above stuff seems pretty hard to miss.
Nancy

Re: Credentials

Nancy N on 9/19/00 at 12:42 (028675)

VickiI think your word 'reputable' is key. (And to reiterate, I'm not at all saying that the input of doctors or other medical professionals is in any way a bad thing.) For example, I only know of Dr. Z's reputation from the things he has posted here and from what people who've seen him have to say, and I would say based on that evidence that he is reputable (in fact, I wish he were closer to where I live, as I would guess a lot of us do). But I don't know anything at all about Mike's reputation, I only know that he is a PT. For me, I need to know more about what he's accomplished and if his patients view him as helpful or not. And frankly, the 'aggressive' attitude doesn't help his case any.

Again, I'm NOT saying that Mike's product isn't helpful or that he doesn't know what he's doing (and perhaps this is a bad example, but it's the best I have). I'm just saying that I don't know enough about Mike to say that his background and expertise is any better than anyone else's, and so I weigh things accordingly.

Re: my apologies in advance........because......

Susan S on 9/19/00 at 15:58 (028685)

You Go Girl! And you are not the only person that has noticed the 'trend'. Perhaps you are right and Scott should discourage the product hawking.....

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

Beverly on 9/19/00 at 16:14 (028686)

It seems like we've all expressed our opinions (some of us, myself included, several times). Isn't it time to just drop this?
Beverly

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

JudyS on 9/19/00 at 16:24 (028687)

Meanwhile, back at the gourmet TexBev ranch, what's new with your PT this week, Beverly? Are you hobbling about much? More than last week? I played an hour of softball last nite and got at least one sore foot. I totally expected both to be stiff and sore this AM - but they weren't! In fact, one was completely loose and pain-free when I started my 'in-bed-still' warmups! I'm so convinced that this on-going deep massage is doing the trick (that and consistent self treatment) - now I'm hugely afraid that my PT prescription will run out before the task is complete!

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

SueS on 9/19/00 at 18:25 (028703)

OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And such LONG posts. I think we know each persons opinion, which ins't going to changs. Time to move on.

Re: Many points made. Perhaps we could just drop this?

Pauline on 9/20/00 at 08:32 (028724)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Remember this folks?
I think the people bashing has continued long enough. My personal
opinion is let the products speak for themselves. Details of any business, care & proper use, returns etc should be handled via personal e-mail. This board should be kept free of harmful
remarms made about anyone purchasing these products or selling them.
If you are selling a service or product you should be willing to post a personal e-mail address and those buying the product should use this address to handle all personal business concerning the product.

As to who's product is best--- This depends on the individual using that particular product. It is simply the opinion of that person who spent the money. Will it be the answer for everyone, not necessarily.
You pay your money and take your chances based on what you have read and heard from others in your life. Should you be able to post about your experiences? Certainly, keep it honest. Should you be able to rebuke a negative experience? Certainly but it shouldn't get personal, especially not by the manufacturer. Do credentials count?
It depends on how important it is to you. Certainly if you plan to to see a Dr. you would want the person to have credentials---on the other hand you purchase many different shoes to help with PF and never require any. I guess what I am trying to say is that any product be it shoes, the Acu-Flex, the PFT, the emu oil are items we try a sufferers of PF. This is our personal choice we shouldn't be bashed for purchasing them and we should bash the manufacturer for selling them.

Re: Hi Nancy

VickiJ on 9/20/00 at 16:34 (028766)

I was going to respond to your questions, but as others have said I guess it's time to quit this 'string'...point of view is always colored by how well I think I know someone...I know Mike better than I know Alan and so I didn't see the issue 'in the same (trashing) light' as Alan or you or others who know Alan really well from the board.
Anyway, that's my last word on the issue. And I really do think Alan, and Mike are both good people.

Re: Hi Nancy

Nancy S. on 9/20/00 at 20:54 (028784)

Thanks for your post, Vicki. I'm sure many different things are factors in our opinions when things occasionally get emotional on the board. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that -- and continue to respect one another.
With respect, and I do hope you make continued progress, I know it's been a long haul --
Nancy