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Orthowave study

Posted by Barb-NY on 2/23/01 at 10:12 (039719)

I just returned from my 3rd and final follow-up for the Orthowave study. I had the treatment done on my tennis elbow. I learned that I, indeed, had the actual treatment. I thought all along that I had the placebo because I've seen very very little improvement.

He told me that I can go into the Phase II and receive the treatment again free of charge. It didn't really work for me before but I might as well go into Phase II. What's there to lose?

Frankly, I feel that the study was handled very poorly. The treatments only lasted 5 minutes each (seems too short compared to the Ossatron which is done in 15 minute treatments). And the local injections they used did not give me relief from the pain of the shocks. They had to lower the energy for a couple of minutes because I was very uncomfortable. Lowering the energy for a couple of minutes, in a treatment that only lasts 5 minutes, must have skewed my results. I said nothing to the doctor...wouldn't have mattered anyway.

This is not my day (week, lifetime)!

So, Nancy, how did yours go?

Re: Orthowave study

Dr. Zuckerman on 2/23/01 at 10:32 (039722)

We have had very good results with Tennis Elbow in my office. Of course being a podiatrist and not an elbow doctor I have a medical doctor evaluate and treat this condition.

The protocol was very similiar to plantar fasciitis treatments.. This was done under local anesthesia. I have been told that the area of the body using ESWT for elbows is very sucessful.

So continue with the treatments with ESWT . Multiple treatment in the right elbow is very effective.

Re: Orthowave study

Nancy N on 2/23/01 at 17:21 (039750)

Barb--

I wondered if you got the real thing when you talked about how much it hurt--from what I have heard, the real treatment certainly does hurt, and I had no pain at all during the treatment. As I suspected, I got the placebo. I'm not thrilled about having to wait until June to get zapped at last, but at least I can go have orthotics made in the meantime.

As for the study's quality, in part I would agree with you. Granted, I have never been in a study before, so I don't know what expectations are reasonable and what are not. I was disappointed in the post-treatment instructions I received, which basically were to 'keep stretching.' The information I signed the first day said that I would receive a set of exercises to do, but nobody ever gave me those. All I heard was to keep stretching, and it wasn't until I emailed Dr. Ehrlich that I even got specifics on that.

I don't know that the length of the treatment matters, though. At least, not in comparison to other machines. The OssaTron is a 15 minute treatment, but it is only done once. I think the OrthoWave treatment that we got was more like 6.5 minutes, but we had it done twice. From what Dr. Z has mentioned about repeated treatments, this could make it more effective because it is automatically done more than once (I suppose it could make it less effective for the same reason--I don't know that much about the specifics). But the other thing to keep in mind is that each machine is a little different, so it could be that the OrthoWave is more powerful than the OssaTron. And I think Dr. Z once mentioned that it is more adjustable than the OssaTron. I don't know how to make an accurate comparison between the two given those circumstances.

I am feeling better, but I would really like to stop the Celebrex and see what happens. I might try the MSM, too, since you are having such good luck with it. And I'm going to have some custom orthotics made by a pedorthist near me, I think. So we'll see. Knowing my luck, I won't need to go for the OrthoWave treatment and will have spent 6 months and 6 sick days traveling to the Bronx for nothing. I guess I will just have to be happy knowing that I might have helped someone else (I wonder if you can get a rain check for the treatment if you were in the study?? that if I don't need it in June, I can go back later on if the PF comes back? I'll have to ask).

BTW, the reason they are not starting the second phase until June is because the FDA prohibits them treating more than 40 people until the study is complete. I'm not sure why, doesn't make much sense to me, but that's what Dr. Ehrlich said.

Good luck with the next treatment--and maybe the MSM will help, too!

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/23/01 at 21:49 (039778)

Hey Nancy...sorry I couldn't hang around long enough to see you. I had to go to work as soon as I could because everyone else in my department decided to take a sick day.

I'm kind of disappointed to learn I received the real treatment. But to tell you the truth, the MSM is starting to help my eblbow now. I'll probably still go for the Phase 2 treatments. If I recall, the Ossatron did their study the same way. First they had a small group for Phase 1 and then opened it up to many more in Phase 2.

I'm going to stop taking Vioxx. It's hasn't done anything and it doesn't make sense to take meds for nothing.

Re: Orthowave study

Julie on 2/24/01 at 02:22 (039782)

Barb, I wouldn't want to encourage you or anyone to doubt the effectiveness of MSM, which I've become quite interested in since your recent posts about it, but don't you think it's possible that your improvement may be due to the effects of the orthowave treatment kicking in? Dr Z has always said that it can take time for the results to show.

Anyway - it doesn't matter, does it? You're getting better, which is all that counts.

Keep it up!

Julie

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/24/01 at 08:02 (039783)

That could be true except for one thing. My feet are also feeling better and they didn't have ESWT. My elbow and feet had seen little to no improvement since developing their conditions. Only since starting MSM have they started healing. My elbow started feeling better just last week. MSM takes about 2 weeks to start working. Slightly more than a coincidance.

Believe me, I'm a big fan of ESWT. But, as far as my elbow is concerned, I don't believe it helped much. As Dr. Z says, sometimes several visits are needed. And let's not forget, some people just don't respond to it.

Re: Orthowave study

Nancy N on 2/24/01 at 13:52 (039804)

Barb--

No problem-I figured the only way you'd still be there would have been if they were running seriously behind schedule. So I wasn't surprised that you weren't there. I still think maybe some of us from the study should meet in the city sometime for lunch or something--just for kicks.

I understand your disappointment--I was really afraid that I might have had the real thing and that this would mean it wasn't going to work for me. So that part was encouraging, at least, though it's still disappointing to know I spent all this time for nothing. Oh well. I tried :)

So... does the MSM actually promote healing, or does it just mask the pain? I get the impression from you that it actually helps the healing. That would be awfully nice. Do you have to keep taking it forever, do you think? I agree with you about the meds--I think the Celebrex has helped me a lot, but I still don't want to be on it forever. Have you been taking the MSM along with the Vioxx? Dr. Ehrlich suggested I drop down to every-other-day on the Celebrex before stopping it in a week, but I'm interested in trying the MSM, too. What the heck--why not? Nothing to lose but a few bucks. :)

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/24/01 at 16:14 (039811)

Nancy...I've been taking Vioxx (and before that Celebrex) for about 8 months and MSM for 4 weeks. I never found either to work well for me. I really don't know why I'm still taking it. It's not like me to take meds without a good reason. I've decided to stop Vioxx. If Dr. Erhrlich recommends doing it slowly, then I will ease myself off it. I really think the MSM is healing me. There is a noticeable difference in the appearance of my feet. They look normal, no swelling. I used to be able to feel my arches hit the ground due to the swelling at the end of the day. Not anymore. Today, I went shopping with my husband and feel fine now. For the first time in a year I didn't think about my feet. MSM helps with so many other problems (many of which I have) I may stay on it for life. I've found no side effects on myself and nothing reported on any website. It's a substance found in many foods and in the body itself.

It would be great if we all could meet in the city sometime. I work in midtown Manhattan. Let's try to do it.

Re: Orthowave study

Julie on 2/25/01 at 01:49 (039838)

Barb, the other day you gave a link to a website that gives info on MSM. I've lost it - could you post it again, please? I'd like to know more about _why_ it works, as it certainly seems to have for you.

Thanks, Julie

Re: MSM sites

Barb-NY on 2/25/01 at 08:30 (039844)

Julie...here are the websites I found that talk about MSM. There are a gazillion other sites as well.

http://www.nutriteam.com/msm.htm

http://www.herbshop.com/msm.htm

MSM may not work for everyone (or anyone) else here. All I know is that is has worked for me, and I offer my stories if I can be of help to anyone else on this board.

Re: About the MSM

Barbara TX on 2/26/01 at 17:15 (039925)

Barb - I found the Trimedica and bought it - its a lotion that's labeled 15% msm. Is yours the same strength? I have also started taking it orally, one tablet a day (does that sound right)? I am also using the progesterone cream in the last third of my cycle, hoping to avoid that monthly painful relapse. I'll let you know what happens! B.

Re: Orthowave study

Dr. Zuckerman on 2/23/01 at 10:32 (039722)

We have had very good results with Tennis Elbow in my office. Of course being a podiatrist and not an elbow doctor I have a medical doctor evaluate and treat this condition.

The protocol was very similiar to plantar fasciitis treatments.. This was done under local anesthesia. I have been told that the area of the body using ESWT for elbows is very sucessful.

So continue with the treatments with ESWT . Multiple treatment in the right elbow is very effective.

Re: Orthowave study

Nancy N on 2/23/01 at 17:21 (039750)

Barb--

I wondered if you got the real thing when you talked about how much it hurt--from what I have heard, the real treatment certainly does hurt, and I had no pain at all during the treatment. As I suspected, I got the placebo. I'm not thrilled about having to wait until June to get zapped at last, but at least I can go have orthotics made in the meantime.

As for the study's quality, in part I would agree with you. Granted, I have never been in a study before, so I don't know what expectations are reasonable and what are not. I was disappointed in the post-treatment instructions I received, which basically were to 'keep stretching.' The information I signed the first day said that I would receive a set of exercises to do, but nobody ever gave me those. All I heard was to keep stretching, and it wasn't until I emailed Dr. Ehrlich that I even got specifics on that.

I don't know that the length of the treatment matters, though. At least, not in comparison to other machines. The OssaTron is a 15 minute treatment, but it is only done once. I think the OrthoWave treatment that we got was more like 6.5 minutes, but we had it done twice. From what Dr. Z has mentioned about repeated treatments, this could make it more effective because it is automatically done more than once (I suppose it could make it less effective for the same reason--I don't know that much about the specifics). But the other thing to keep in mind is that each machine is a little different, so it could be that the OrthoWave is more powerful than the OssaTron. And I think Dr. Z once mentioned that it is more adjustable than the OssaTron. I don't know how to make an accurate comparison between the two given those circumstances.

I am feeling better, but I would really like to stop the Celebrex and see what happens. I might try the MSM, too, since you are having such good luck with it. And I'm going to have some custom orthotics made by a pedorthist near me, I think. So we'll see. Knowing my luck, I won't need to go for the OrthoWave treatment and will have spent 6 months and 6 sick days traveling to the Bronx for nothing. I guess I will just have to be happy knowing that I might have helped someone else (I wonder if you can get a rain check for the treatment if you were in the study?? that if I don't need it in June, I can go back later on if the PF comes back? I'll have to ask).

BTW, the reason they are not starting the second phase until June is because the FDA prohibits them treating more than 40 people until the study is complete. I'm not sure why, doesn't make much sense to me, but that's what Dr. Ehrlich said.

Good luck with the next treatment--and maybe the MSM will help, too!

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/23/01 at 21:49 (039778)

Hey Nancy...sorry I couldn't hang around long enough to see you. I had to go to work as soon as I could because everyone else in my department decided to take a sick day.

I'm kind of disappointed to learn I received the real treatment. But to tell you the truth, the MSM is starting to help my eblbow now. I'll probably still go for the Phase 2 treatments. If I recall, the Ossatron did their study the same way. First they had a small group for Phase 1 and then opened it up to many more in Phase 2.

I'm going to stop taking Vioxx. It's hasn't done anything and it doesn't make sense to take meds for nothing.

Re: Orthowave study

Julie on 2/24/01 at 02:22 (039782)

Barb, I wouldn't want to encourage you or anyone to doubt the effectiveness of MSM, which I've become quite interested in since your recent posts about it, but don't you think it's possible that your improvement may be due to the effects of the orthowave treatment kicking in? Dr Z has always said that it can take time for the results to show.

Anyway - it doesn't matter, does it? You're getting better, which is all that counts.

Keep it up!

Julie

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/24/01 at 08:02 (039783)

That could be true except for one thing. My feet are also feeling better and they didn't have ESWT. My elbow and feet had seen little to no improvement since developing their conditions. Only since starting MSM have they started healing. My elbow started feeling better just last week. MSM takes about 2 weeks to start working. Slightly more than a coincidance.

Believe me, I'm a big fan of ESWT. But, as far as my elbow is concerned, I don't believe it helped much. As Dr. Z says, sometimes several visits are needed. And let's not forget, some people just don't respond to it.

Re: Orthowave study

Nancy N on 2/24/01 at 13:52 (039804)

Barb--

No problem-I figured the only way you'd still be there would have been if they were running seriously behind schedule. So I wasn't surprised that you weren't there. I still think maybe some of us from the study should meet in the city sometime for lunch or something--just for kicks.

I understand your disappointment--I was really afraid that I might have had the real thing and that this would mean it wasn't going to work for me. So that part was encouraging, at least, though it's still disappointing to know I spent all this time for nothing. Oh well. I tried :)

So... does the MSM actually promote healing, or does it just mask the pain? I get the impression from you that it actually helps the healing. That would be awfully nice. Do you have to keep taking it forever, do you think? I agree with you about the meds--I think the Celebrex has helped me a lot, but I still don't want to be on it forever. Have you been taking the MSM along with the Vioxx? Dr. Ehrlich suggested I drop down to every-other-day on the Celebrex before stopping it in a week, but I'm interested in trying the MSM, too. What the heck--why not? Nothing to lose but a few bucks. :)

Re: Orthowave study

Barb-NY on 2/24/01 at 16:14 (039811)

Nancy...I've been taking Vioxx (and before that Celebrex) for about 8 months and MSM for 4 weeks. I never found either to work well for me. I really don't know why I'm still taking it. It's not like me to take meds without a good reason. I've decided to stop Vioxx. If Dr. Erhrlich recommends doing it slowly, then I will ease myself off it. I really think the MSM is healing me. There is a noticeable difference in the appearance of my feet. They look normal, no swelling. I used to be able to feel my arches hit the ground due to the swelling at the end of the day. Not anymore. Today, I went shopping with my husband and feel fine now. For the first time in a year I didn't think about my feet. MSM helps with so many other problems (many of which I have) I may stay on it for life. I've found no side effects on myself and nothing reported on any website. It's a substance found in many foods and in the body itself.

It would be great if we all could meet in the city sometime. I work in midtown Manhattan. Let's try to do it.

Re: Orthowave study

Julie on 2/25/01 at 01:49 (039838)

Barb, the other day you gave a link to a website that gives info on MSM. I've lost it - could you post it again, please? I'd like to know more about _why_ it works, as it certainly seems to have for you.

Thanks, Julie

Re: MSM sites

Barb-NY on 2/25/01 at 08:30 (039844)

Julie...here are the websites I found that talk about MSM. There are a gazillion other sites as well.

http://www.nutriteam.com/msm.htm

http://www.herbshop.com/msm.htm

MSM may not work for everyone (or anyone) else here. All I know is that is has worked for me, and I offer my stories if I can be of help to anyone else on this board.

Re: About the MSM

Barbara TX on 2/26/01 at 17:15 (039925)

Barb - I found the Trimedica and bought it - its a lotion that's labeled 15% msm. Is yours the same strength? I have also started taking it orally, one tablet a day (does that sound right)? I am also using the progesterone cream in the last third of my cycle, hoping to avoid that monthly painful relapse. I'll let you know what happens! B.