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Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Posted by Nancy S. on 2/26/01 at 10:02 (039905)

Before seeing this homeopathic doctor in Mexico, I'd been in that country for a week and a half. Before going there, my feet (PF and myriad tendonitises) had taken another leap in improvement (around November?) -- but still I could be on them for only about 20 minutes at a time before some pain set in, and if I was on them for longer it took the rest of the day, and sometimes another day, to recover. So I still had a way to go.

We took a wheelchair to Mexico, and for the first week and a half I used it for longer 'walks,' for watching parades, etc. Once in San Miguel, the feet quickly swelled up from walking on cobblestones and everything else crooked that's there, and I could take only very short walks and spent too many hours in the hotel room recuperating.

Then my husband met a couple from Canada, the 58-year-old man having had bad arthritis in both arms for several years. Last year he'd visited San Miguel and did some research and found this homeopathic doctor everyone spoke highly of (Dr. Garcia). This guy was at the end of his rope with the arthritis -- he's a builder, and it was wrecking his business. Dr. Garcia prescribed homeopathic medicines (remedies) for Pete, and Pete is now one happy camper. He is going to Dr. Garcia every winter for another year's supply of remedies, and his arms are perfectly normal. My husband told him my story, and Pete insisted I should see Dr. Garcia, so I did.

Dr. Garcia talked to me at length about my foot problems, the depression from them, and the anxiety I've been on medication for for a long time. This wasn't easy, because Dr. Garcia doesn't know much English! But we were able to communicate enough in a variety of ways.

He then examined my feet, which were of course swollen at the time. He believes my lymphatic system is weak; he also felt for circulation in my feet -- a certain pulse point in each foot -- and said that the pulse could barely be felt.
Without better circulation, he said (and as we know), the feet cannot heal.
He recommended that I stay away from dairy foods and salt. He also recommended that I elevate my feet _above the heart_ for 12 hours a day -- while I'm sleeping, natch, and then find the other hours during the day.

He prescribed four remedies, which I began to take immediately:
I. neuroliptin (a liquid, put under the tongue with a dropper) -- this, as far as I could understand, was for depression and premenopausal symptoms.
II. valeriana (with some dosages in Spanish) (in pill form, 4 every four hours under the tongue) -- for anxiety, but also can relieve pain and reduce spasms. I do know valerian is used mainly for insomnia; apparently it can also address these other symptoms.
III. calc.c. (or colc.c?) -- taken same as number II, and I never did get exactly what this is or does!
IV. gel de hamamelis -- a salve to massage into my feet twice a day. I understand that it's from a tree, but that's all I know!

I was impressed with Dr. Garcia despite the quackery attributed to homeopathy in the U.S. -- I've read it all now -- but when he said, 'You should start to feel better in 3 to 5 days.' I thought, 'Oh, sure!'

But I did as he said, and by the second day I found myself on a long trek all over San Miguel, taking pictures of doorways (a fetish of mine) and having a wonderful time with my husband, and after about two hours it hit me: My feet hurt not at all. Not one twinge. I jumped in the air and exclaimed to Phil, 'Guess What! My feet don't hurt!' So we kept on going. We had a wonderful afternoon, I was ecstatic.

And it continued. We never used the wheelchair again for anything, and I walked over all those cobblestones, frolicked in the desert, etc., and had no pain. After a week or ten days or so, I decided to test it and went down drastically on the remedy doses. After only a day, I had more swelling and pain twinges again, so I went back up on the remedies and stayed there. Checked in with Dr. Garcia again before we left, to buy a good supply and to ask him how I should handle doses over the long term -- which he explained (with numbers II and III above, gradually taper them down, pay close attention to how the feet do, and take only as much as I need; with the others, stick to the dose, which is not high as it is).

There could be many factors that went into this: Maybe, as Julie said, getting far away from home distracts you in a big way (although for me, I'd been away for a week and a half already and the feet were suffering more than before I'd left home). Maybe walking on cobblestones ended up exercising and strengthening my feet! (Actually I suspect it did -- but I could hardly walk on them before the homeopathy.) So I'm happily mystified, but I'm not about to quit it just because it's mysterious to me -- it's helping me in a big way.

By the way, this all took place without using my orthotics. I'd had them adjusted just before I left, and the adjustment didn't work out. I took the orthotics with me, just in case, but never used them. I wore Birks the entire time (switching between the Bostons and the Nebraska Tatamis).

Still doing great. Haven't been home very long, so time will tell more, but for now I'm thrilled.

I hope this helps someone!

Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Barb-NY on 2/26/01 at 13:00 (039908)

Hi...I am so interested in your letter. I am delighted you are feeling so much better. It just shows that there are many different routes to the cure. Even though MSM is working for me, I am still looking for anything else that will push it over the edge.

I looked up hamamelis and found a couple of sites:

http://www.healthlink.com.au/nat_lib/htm-data/htm-herb/bhp649.htm
http://www.natmedpro.com/nmp/Hamamel.htm

It's basically witch hazel. But it has some anti-inflammatory properties.

I'm in the process of research calc.c. and neuroliptin.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Cynthia D on 2/26/01 at 13:38 (039911)

Hi Nancy, Welcome back! I was just a floundering newbie when you left, but you helped me so much. We all missed your wisdom and insight. I'm sorry to hear about Phil's Dad, 91's pretty respectable! And your poor kitty. Sorry.

The Homeopathy cure sounds fascinating. I tried homeopathy while pregnant, didn't get much relief, I think I took Arnica? Is that related to what you are taking. I would be fascinated to learn more about what you are taking. And no orthos? I tried my Birks, but the arch seems SO hard and painful. I used to wear them daily.

Since you left, I took the plunge and had ESWT in NJ (I don't waste any time.) I'm having a hard time healing, now 3 weeks and still not back to normal life, or even the normal pain level I had before treatment yet! I am almost at my wit's end with the pain and helplessness but am trying to maintain a happy disposition if I can, and to get back into my usual routine little by little. (See how happy I am that you are back, I need your advice already.)

What a wonderful story! I'm so glad you are better. I had tears in my eyes reading how you went for 2 hours before you realized you were pain-free - congratulations!! Maybe I'll go out in search of some cobblestone streets! Cynthia

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner. TO BarbNY and Cynthia

Nancy S. on 2/26/01 at 19:19 (039936)

Hi Barb, thanks for looking up that stuff and for the websites. I'll be very interested in anything else you turn up. That the gel has some anti-inflammatory properties doesn't surprise me, but what does surprise me is that it seems to have good effect for me. Over the last almost two years, at my worst or 'best,' no other anti-inflammatories did a thing for me. Ibuprofen didn't touch the pain, Day-Pro killed my stomach, weeks of Vioxx had no effect at all. I tried bromelain for a long time, and thought it might be helping some, but when I tested it by going off it, I got no worse and then just kind of gave up on it without thinking. Confusing, eh?
I've been reading your success with MSM -- congratulations! I'm going to take some notes from your posts about it, because who knows what the future will bring?

Cynthia, I certainly do remember you, and am glad you took some fast action (ESWT) -- though I'm so sorry you're still in a lot of pain. Since you saw Dr. Z., I take it that you can have another treatment after 12 weeks if no improvement? I'm by no means an ESWT expert -- although I believe in its potential for sure -- but my impression is that it's not rare for a person to need more than one treatment.
I tried an arnica cream from the health store last summer after it was recommended on the board. It didn't do anything for me, unfortunately, but apparently it does help some people. No, I don't think any of the things I'm taking are related to it.
Hang in there, Cynthia! Thank you so much for your nice post.
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Brian G on 2/26/01 at 23:29 (039958)

Hi Nancy,

Good deal, glad you found some relief. Just wondering if you ever had any experience with Homeopathy before heading south? I have a co-worker who has mentioned it to me a couple of times. Never hearing first hand that it could help someone with PF, I kind of blew him off. Now I'm wondering if the American practitioners are any different than those south of the boarder.

Where oh where does one start? I know, the net. Sure would be good to hear some 1st hand knowledge of whats happening in the US. I'm not afraid of some research, just looking for an edge. And of course I'm sure insurance won't touch it with a 10' pole, correct?

Thanks
BG

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Julie on 2/27/01 at 02:30 (039962)

Thank you for this post, Nancy. I'm so glad you've been so dramatically helped by homeopathy. It all makes sense and sounds good: the doctor clearly found the right combination of remedies for you.

The point about homeopathic treatment (before people who've been inspired by your experience, as I'm sure many have been, rush off to buy the remedies that have helped you) is that it is individually prescribed for the PERSON, not the illness. So it's necessary to see a homeopathic physician for a full consultation and evaluation of you, not just of your foot pain. The valerian, calc c and hamamelis that have helped Nancy, wouldn't necessarily help anyone else.

There are a few 'general' remedies, such as arnica, which helps in cases of bruising and bleeding (recommended before and after surgery, btw). But although many remedies are available over the counter, in the UK, anyway, most need to be prescribed.

So where to start, Brian. Perhaps with the internet, but perhaps not. If the system isn't respected and regulated in the States, there probably are a few quacks practising, and you mightn't be able to judge. In England, where homeopathy is highly valued (our own dear Queen swears by it) it would be easy. You would get a recommendation from a friend, or ask to be referred to one of the homeopathic hospitals (the biggest, the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London, is an NHS hospital but most homeopathic treatment is private). Or you'd consult the register of qualified homeopaths and find one in your area. I don't know hether such a register exists in the States, but if it does, you should be able to find it.

The bottom line: I would certainly encourage anyone who is interested to investigate, and and post whatever information you come up with for others. I just wish I could be of more help as regards homeopathy in the States!

Julie

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 02:47 (039963)

Hi Brian,
Unfortunately, I'm sure U.S. insurance companies would laugh a homeopathy coverage request right off the map!
I don't know if practitioners here are different from those in Mexico; I've never had homeopathy for anything before, this was a first, so I have no way to compare.
The guy I saw in Mexico was certified all over his wall, and I'm wondering what qualifications homeopathists are expected to have here in the U.S. If you want to try seeing someone, I think I'd want a good personal recommendation from someone who has been successfully treated by that person.
I checked a lot of homeopathy sites on the Net when I got home, but I haven't found any that were very helpful or informative. If I do, though, I'll let you know!
Buena suerte, Brian ('good luck'),
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 02:58 (039965)

Wow, Julie, your Queen swears by homeopathy? And does the Queen Mother? Because that lady is lasting a long time! Love those hats!
You posted to Brian at the same time I was posting, and it sounds like we're on the same page. But I'm glad you pointed out that the prescribing of remedies is for the individual person. I thought that must be so, because the homeopathy doctor had what looked to be about ten thousand different remedies in his pharmacy there.
Have a great day; I know you must be off and running, while I sit here with insomnia!
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Julie on 2/27/01 at 03:37 (039969)

Nancy WHAT are you doing up at this hour? It's not because your feet are hurting you is it? It's nice to have a conversation-without-time-leg for a change!

Yes I think the Queen Mum is also a fan of homoepathy. But most people hereabouts think it's the gin that's kept her going.

Hey - she's not MY queen. Please!

But actually, I have to tell you that I have just - after 40 years - applied for British citizenship. The British have always allowed dual nationality, but for many years after I first came here the Americans thought it was tantamount to treason, and excommunicated you if you applied, and I didn't want to lose my US citizenship. Then they relaxed the rules a bit, but still expected you to swear an oath of allegiance and to declare you had no intention of renouncing your homeland. Now, at last (thanks to globalization, no doubt) they 'presume' there is no such intention, and all you have to do is inform them you've taken British citizenship. So I've taken the plunge. And then she will be 'my queen'. Oh dear.

This completely irrelevant post should have been on the SS board. I apologize, Scott.

Good night Nancy, and sleep well (with your feet up).

Julie

Re: Where I would start

Beverly on 2/27/01 at 13:12 (040003)

Brian,

I am not a homeopathic person, but since I have many food allergies, I've spent a good bit of time in healthfood stores and with naturalist nutritionists. I think a good place to begin looking for a reputable homeopathic doctor would be through these places:

1. Call the leading D.O. (as opposed to M.D.) teaching hospital in your area and ask if they have a physician referral line. If they don't, they should be able to refer you to one. D.O.'s tend to be more open to homeopathic things. I would ask if there is a D.O. in the area who uses homeopathic treatments in his/her practice. You will probably find that younger D.O.'s are more likely to be keen on this.

2. Sometimes your local healthfood store will be a good referral source. However, I would exercise some caution here. I once went to an allergist my healthfood store suggested, and before the appointment was over, I was convinced the guy was a quack.

It is unfortunate that our homeopathic remedies in the States are not regulated as they are in Europe.
Best of luck,
Beverly

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

CELIA on 2/27/01 at 13:13 (040004)

Heck I'm willing to try anything right now!!! I wonder if lack of circulation is the reason for my needle pricks running down my legs down to my feet. Think we can find this stuff in the states??

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/27/01 at 14:16 (040012)

For the 'con' side on homeopathy, see http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/go/btcarrol/skeptic/homeo.html Note especially this excerpt:

'One of the stranger tenets of homeopathy, proposed by
Dr. Hahnemann himself, is that the potency of a
remedy increases as the drug becomes more and more
dilute. Some drugs are diluted so many times that they
don't contain any molecules of the substance that was
initially diluted, yet homeopaths claim that these are
their most potent medications! It is not surprising to
find that there is no explanation as to how this happens
or is even possible, though some homeopaths have
speculated that the water used to dilute a remedy has a
'memory' of the initial substance.

Homeopathy's supporters point to clinical trials which
indicate a homeopathic efficacy that cannot be
explained by the placebo effect. Critics contend that
such studies are poorly designed, methodologically
biased, statistically flawed, etc. The known laws of
physics and chemistry would have to be completely
revamped if a tonic from which every molecule of the
'active' ingredient were removed could be shown to
nevertheless to be effective. '

In other words, if you're spending good money on 'remedies' billed as 10C, 20C, 30C, etc., you're essentially buying a placebo. There are many mysteries in the world, but the efficacy of homeopathy is not one of them.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 15:17 (040018)

john a., I had a feeling we could count on you!
What exactly does '10C' '20C' etc. stand for? I'm new to this and would like to know.
I read the site you posted, and have read many others, both pro and con.
It always fascinates me how narrow our current Western medicine likes to keep its focus, and how easily threatened it is by competitors for the attention of folks trying to cure their ills -- some of those competitors being methods much older and more traditional in a real sense than those of our medical establishment. The AMA and big pharmaceutical companies surely do have a powerful grip.
Also interesting is the fact that almost everything I've seen on the Net trying to kill alternative medical approaches in the U.S. has Stephen Barrett's name on it.
Anyway, I've never been a big proponent of alternative medicines because I haven't tried many before. I have to wonder, if I'm vulnerable to the placebo effect, why that didn't kick in when I tried Day-Pro, Vioxx, ibuprofen, bromelain, etc. I was at least as anxious to get rid of my pain when I tried them as when I started taking the homeopathic medicines -- probably more so. I think that's rather a mystery.
As for the money, I spent less on a long supply of homeopathic medicines than I spent on any one of the earlier bad orthotics, bad doctor visits, bad inserts, bad shoes, etc. Doesn't even come close. Considering how much better I'm feeling, would I spend the lesser money on homeopathic medicines again? You bet I would.
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/27/01 at 16:48 (040022)

Yup, perhaps I should change my moniker to 'john the skeptic' :-) Homeopathy describes the potency of its remedies by a simple notation: a smallish integer followed by a 'X' or 'C' (there may be other letters). The 'X' stands for 10 and the 'C' for 100 (like roman numerals). 'X' means the active ingredient was diluted to 1 part in 10. The integer in front of the X specifies how many times the 1-in-10 dilution was repeated. So, a 6X remedy has had the active ingredient diluted to 1 part in 1,000,000 (six zeroes). And similarly, a 20C remedy has had the active ingredient diluted to 1 part in 1040 (a 1-in-100 dilution, the 'C' part, repeated 20 times). This is already a vanishingly weak solution. The kicker is that you can even buy 200C remedies, that have been diluted to 1 part in 10400, which means that there is almost certainly not even 1 molecule of the active ingredient left! It is this certain absence of something that the homeopaths claim can cure what ails you. And it is this same certain absence that makes skeptics incredulous. How do some studies show that people are helped by homeopathy? Because the studies are flawed. How is it that you yourself were apparently helped by homeopathy? That's not clear. Perhaps it was as simple as it was just your time to get better, and it wouldn't have much mattered what you doing at the time. Also, you mentioned other things your homeopath wanted you to do - eliminate dairy, etc. If you did any of that, maybe that helped. I don't know. But it probably wasn't homeopathy that helped you. I say probably, because if the stuff you took was 'only', say, 6X, there would still have been active ingredient left to be able to have some effect on you. Finally, I don't think the AMA is threatened by homeopathy - there's literally nothing there to be threatened by. And I'm not threatened by it either - I just want people to know what it really is. Homeopathy is the Seinfeld of alternative medicine: it's about 'nothing' :-)

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 17:58 (040028)

Thanks for the math, John. I understood most of it . . . I think. My remedies are 6C.
I guess we just have to differ in our take on the medical establishment's motives when it doesn't recognize acupuncture, homeopathy, and other approaches. I do know there are a lot of quacks out there in alternative medicine -- but I've also met some quack M.D.s and podiatrists. No doubt some homeopathy studies are flawed -- but so are a great many medical establishment studies, as we read constantly in the media. Since different people are helped by different approaches, I don't know why the medical establishment isn't interested in working _with_ a variety of approaches, if it truly has the best interest of the patient in mind. The medical establishment had exhausted all its possibilities for the guy Pete I mentioned, with the badly arthritic arms, and was ready to do surgery -- who knows where that would have landed him?
The homeopathic doctor I saw expressed great frustration over the lack of cooperation among the different medical approaches. It seems to me there should be room for openness to all possibilities. I don't mean to trash regular medicine completely by any means -- I mean if I had a heart attack, I'd want to go to a hospital and be treated by a cardiologist. And I finally did get some medical help with the PF and tendonitis -- it just hadn't taken me all the way.
Actually, I didn't drop the dairy until I got home. And there's always the possibility, as you say, that it was 'just my time' to get better -- but why was I getting worse, not better, until I saw the homeopathist?
I'm in no way saying this is The Answer for everyone. Maybe it's the answer for very few people. I still believe it helped and is helping me, and I know two other people who are wholehearted believers based on experience and research. I think it should remain available, probably be regulated in some way, and not written off as quackery by M.D.s who I think ARE threatened by approaches outside their own world. Not all are -- I've read about some M.D.s with open minds who end up being pioneers in fighting certain illnesses because they blend the purely specialized approach with holistic approaches. But I've seen too many others with, let's face it, an ego or turf problem, which I think stands in the way of a wider vision and of more opportunities & choices for people with hard-to-treat ailments.
Ok, I'll end with an old Mexican proverb:

The truth suffers, but never perishes.

Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 2/28/01 at 02:14 (040053)

This discussion, which erupted while I was peacefully sleeping in my bed, has been very interesting to me. Living in England, where homeopathy is respected by most people and in fact considered mainstream by a large segment of the orthodox medical establishment, I'm sorry to find the the attitude towards it in my home country so cynical.

I understand how people in such a climate of cynicism might find it difficult to accept the underlying principle of homoeopathy, and I'm familiar with the debunking arguments John A put forward. I'm also familiar with the triumphant cry of 'flawed research' that is used to knock down all systems of complementary medicine. We should all be aware that the the drug companies have no vested interest in putting up the funds for the kind or research the medical establishment would acknowledge as valid. No funds = no 'proper' research = negative judgement and dismissal of quackery/placebo effect etc etc.

But I'd like to show how differently homoepathy is regarded in a different culture and climate, by briefly describing the Royal London Homoepathic Hospital. The Yoga Therapy Centre, where I teach my class for people with cancer, is based there, so I've learned a little about it.

The RLHH is an NHS (National Health Service) hospital. It is staffed by medical doctors who have also qualified as homoeopaths and practice both allopathic and homoeopathic medicine. Patients are referred by their GPs, or their specialist consultants for treatment for a very wide spectrum of conditions, including cancer and heart disease, and any treatment prescribed is reported back to the referring doctor. There is, in other words, complete co-operation between the two, and an acceptance on both sides that both systems have much to offer. Treatment at the hospital is free, as long as the patient has been referred within the system; the hospital also accepts private patients, who pay or are covered by their own private insurance.

Over the years in England I've known many - I mean hundreds - of individuals who have been effectively treated by homoepathy. OK, it's considered 'fringe' in the States, and isn't regulated there. But you should know that it is highly valued in other cultures. It's sad to find a valid healing system debunked and dismissed on this board of all places, and I hope that won't discourage anyone who feels inclined to investigate homoeopathy for the help it might be able to offer.

But I repeat what I said yesterday: please don't make the mistake of buying over-the-counter homoeopathic remedies. Locate a homoeopath (Beverly's suggesition of consulting a D.O. is a good place to start) and have the remedies properly prescribed for you.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 08:06 (040060)

So, your 6C remedies have a strength of 1 part per trillion (10 12). Plain old tap water has plenty of impurities at greater concentrations than that. Please think about that. And Nancy S., I am glad you're getting better, whatever the reason - if it's one thing this world needs less of, it's pain.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 08:18 (040061)

There has been no 'eruption' here over the merits of homeopathy. Nancy S and I have been expressing differing opinions, that's all. As for it being sad to find debunking going on on this board, it would be truly sad if we all did nothing but agree with each other, especially when a contrary opinion has validity.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

wendyn on 2/28/01 at 09:47 (040065)

I have no opinion whatsoever on homeopathy -I don't know enough about it yet. I think that if it works - go with it (I don't really 'believe' in acupuncture either but it sure seems to help me). I also think that questioning and skepticism are essential to this board. If we all agreed on everything, this would be a very boring place.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 2/28/01 at 09:51 (040066)

Please forgive me, John, for my ill-advised use of the word 'erupted'. It was very early in the morning. I should have said 'started'.

Let's be accurate, though. You weren't really expressing an opinion on homoepathy, you were dismissing it. Saying that homoepathy is 'nothing', and that anyone who 'pays good money for it is buying a placebo' (in other words, is deluded) is debunking.

Nancy posted about her good experience with homoepathy. Her improvement is a fact, not an opinion.

You're right that it would be sad if we were all to agree with each other: no-one would ever learn anything, and that is patently not true of this board, where we all learn a lot from each other's experiences.

But I think it's more productive to have discussions in a spirit of goodwill and acceptance. I have no particular commitment to homoepathy: I made my post because I thought it would interest you and others to know that a branch of medicine viewed as quackery on your side of the pond is respected and valued and taken seriously on this side. This too is fact, not opinion.

I believe that each of the complementary therapies has a great deal to offer, and that the two 'sides' are eventually going to have to draw closer together in the interests of patients, in the U.S. as they are doing here (though it may take longer in the States where the vested interests are probably even more powerful). For example: I am a trustee of a cancer charity which maintains a register of complementary therapists for cancer patients who want to explore non-orthodox as well as orthodox avenues of treatment and healing, but our primary aim is to bring about integration of allopathic and complementary care in the treatment of all cancer patients. Our annual conference is attended by an approximately equal number of health professionals working in the NHS including doctors and nurses, and complementary therapist of all persuasions.

BTW, how do you manage to get the words you want to emphasize to come out in bold?

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 13:58 (040089)

I was expressing my opinion that one of the fundamental tenets of homeopathy is absurd, namely, the idea that diluting a substance to the point of non-existence gives it curative powers. I cannot get past the absurdity of this idea. It flies in the face of everything we know about physics and chemistry and common sense. If you gave a 20C potion to a lab, they could not even detect the active ingredient. And yet we are supposed to believe that this potion can cure. Now, Nancy's improvement may be a fact, but what is not a fact is that her improvement is due to homeopathy. There may be other things that homeopaths do that can in fact help people, but selling them potions with no active ingredients is simply dishonest. [ BTW, you can add pizzazz to your posts by using some simple html tags: <b>this will be bold</b> <i>this will be in italics</i> ]

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Barbara TX on 2/28/01 at 15:45 (040096)

But aren't Nancy's potions 6 c and not 20c? Couldn't you detect that in lab analysis? If you can, then her potions are active, and thus, curative (if she has experienced improvement).

Lots of my friends are into homeopathy, and some say it works. What makes me sceptical is the fact that their homeopaths do not give them the ingredients of their tinctures for fear that the patient would go somewhere else for them or try to make them at home (what's the big deal about that)? However, Nancy got specific names and dosages, so he sounds like a good guy.

For the first time after the birth of my daughter I used an herbal remedy (goldenseal powder) to put on the stump of her umbilical cord. With my first baby, even the most solicitious care was used in cleaning my son's cord with the traditional alcohol. Still, it went to mush and infected. The cord stayed on for three weeks! With baby #2, the goldenseal dried it up to nothing in FOUR DAYS. I took the baby into the doctor and the cord was already gone and he was amazed. Would he recommend it to his patients as well? No way. Traditional medicine and traditional minds get stuck in ruts.

I say, if it works, do it, but I absolutely agree that there needs to be some active ingredient present (of course)! B.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 16:43 (040105)

This link http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/P/Ppm.html seems to suggest that 1 part per trillion is barely detectable. That's what 6C is. But it is still a 'vanishingly small' concentration. And I agree that lots of herbs and plant extracts can and do affect the body, just not when they're not even there :-)

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

wendyn on 2/28/01 at 17:00 (040109)

I have 'Alternative Medicine for Dummies' (James Dillard and Terra Ziporyn) and it goes into almost every alternative medicine available. It gives both sides - here are some highlights....

'Today the National Center for Homeopathy estimates that the amount of money spent worldwisde on homeopathy is between 1 billion and 5 billion dollars a year.....Homeopathic hosiptals are part of the national health system in Great Britain....'

'Nothing may be something...we're talking about really diluted doses here. So diluted that - from an objective standpoint you're really taking plain old water, sugar pills, or alcohol.'

'The best evidence so far suggests that certain homeopathic remedies may help relieve allergic asthma, hay fever, migraine headaches, childhood diarrrhea, rhumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia and trauma - and decrease the duration of labor...'

..'Even so, at least a few homeopathic remedies have overcome these hurdles. Over the past two decades, several high-quality studies suggesting that homeopathy can work (and work _better_ than placebos) have appeared in major _mainstream_ peer-reviewed medical journals ....aa few good studies show that homeopathic remedies can work on animals...'

Basically the book verifies what John is saying (there is so little ingredient in the water that it technically is just water) but it also says that it may just work. If it works for you - go with it.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Brian G on 2/28/01 at 20:20 (040125)

What a great string this has been. It's been very informative, from both sides. This is exactlly why I follow a few message boards. Whether this is a viable treatment will probably be debated for years. Thanks to this board, I'll now get to reseach it, and who knows, it may just help my PF. Without the board, I probably would have just blown it off, like I did when one of my managers at work mentioned it about a year ago.

Thanks to all
Bran G

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 3/01/01 at 02:12 (040137)

John

I'm not trying to persuade you to embrace homoeopathy. But I would like you to open your mind to a system that has proven to be effective, even though you cannot see how it works. I assure you that it is more than the placebo effect. The millions of people in the UK who have had successful homoeopathic treatment are not paying out the billions of pounds Wendy cited for a placebo. Dogs, horses, cows and other animals almost invariably respond to homoepathic treatment: they don't know about the placebo effect.

Scepticism is vital: we'd have no science and no medicine (allopathic or holistic/complementary) without it. But I believe that anything that flies in the face of what we know about physics or chemistry or anything else should make us curious, not dismissive.

Scientists themselves are constantly finding out things that fly in the face of what they know, and are always questioning their paramaters and belief systems. That's how they make new discoveries that invalidate old ones and add to the sum of our knowledge. They are also increasingly acknowledging the validity of ancient systems of healing: yoga, traditional Chinese medicine including acupuncture, herbalism, to name but a few.

My interest is in healing, which is not the same as curing. Healing is about creating balance: balance on all levels of a person's being, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. The mechanistic, fragmented view of so much conventional medicine obscures this truth; whereas most of the holistic therapies, of which homoepathy is one, are founded upon it. This is at the heart of what they have to contribute to health and healing.

All the best

Julie

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 02:14 (040138)

Oh dear! I tried John's html suggestion for emboldening a word and the whole message following that word (how) got emboldened. Apologies for shouting.

John, how do I isolate a word, please?

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

john a on 3/01/01 at 08:49 (040159)

You need to enclose the text you want to hilight in the html tags - you forgot to use the closing </b> tag. (perhaps this cat should not have been let out of the bag. Forgetting the closing tag can affect the appearance of all messages following the one in which the mistake is made, which is especially bothersome when viewing messages since last visit. I guess Scott could 'escape' all such html tags he finds in messages, so that they lose their html formatting significance, but then we'd lose some of our expressiveness.

Re: Not quite shouting

Bill E on 3/01/01 at 08:57 (040161)

Well, I don't think that the bold is quite the same as all CAPS and shouting.
Maybe a mini html post somewhere would help all of us. But john hit the major ones. It just takes some practice. And I am a little too lazy to do it very often. *s*

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 09:01 (040162)

Thanks for explaining this, John. I didn't forget, I just didn't know. Let's see if I've got it right now.

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 09:03 (040163)

Nope. I enclosed the word 'right', but 'now' came up bold too. I think I'll just forget it. Apologies again for (not quite - thanks, Bill) shouting if this whole message is bold.

Julie

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john h on 3/01/01 at 09:40 (040169)

nancy: i do not remember you posting much about 'swelling' in your feet. is the swelling in one particular spot or generalized swelling. sure sounds as though there is a problem beyond pf. after all this time i am sure you must have had a good general workup from an internist as swelling of the feet can be caused by a myraid of conditions. blood flow to the feet can be measured, blood test can detect kindney/liver function. blockage of blood flow to the feet is not uncommon as dr z will attest. i would be all over that swelling of the feet to find out why.

Re: HTML Tag Crib Sheet

john a on 3/01/01 at 11:07 (040184)






































To get this effectType this
This text is bold<b>This text is bold</b>
This text is in italics<i>This text is in italics</i>
This text is underlined<u>This text is underlined</u>
This word is superscriptedThis <sup>word</sup> is superscripted
This word is subscriptedThis <sub>word</sub> is subscripted
This text is smaller<small>This text is smaller</small>
This text is bigger<big>This text is bigger</big>
This text is striked<strike>This text is striked</strike>
Bold, underlined and in italics<b><u><i>This text is bold<i></u></b>
  • Unordered list item one
  • Unordered list item two
<ul><li>Unordered list item one</li>
<li>Unordered list item two</li></ul>
  1. Ordered list item one
  2. Ordered list item two
<ol><li>Ordered list item one</li>
<li>Ordered list item two</li></ol>


You can find all these and many more html tags described at http://developer.netscape.com/docs/manuals/htmlguid/index.htm

Re: HTML Tag Crib Sheet - thanks for it

Julie on 3/02/01 at 03:12 (040251)

Thanks, John. I've printed this out and will study and use it. In my 'test' last night I didn't use the /cancel sign when closing. My apologies to everyone who has been bugged by all that bold type. I'll never do it again!

Yours in embarrassment

Julie

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Barb-NY on 2/26/01 at 13:00 (039908)

Hi...I am so interested in your letter. I am delighted you are feeling so much better. It just shows that there are many different routes to the cure. Even though MSM is working for me, I am still looking for anything else that will push it over the edge.

I looked up hamamelis and found a couple of sites:

http://www.healthlink.com.au/nat_lib/htm-data/htm-herb/bhp649.htm
http://www.natmedpro.com/nmp/Hamamel.htm

It's basically witch hazel. But it has some anti-inflammatory properties.

I'm in the process of research calc.c. and neuroliptin.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Cynthia D on 2/26/01 at 13:38 (039911)

Hi Nancy, Welcome back! I was just a floundering newbie when you left, but you helped me so much. We all missed your wisdom and insight. I'm sorry to hear about Phil's Dad, 91's pretty respectable! And your poor kitty. Sorry.

The Homeopathy cure sounds fascinating. I tried homeopathy while pregnant, didn't get much relief, I think I took Arnica? Is that related to what you are taking. I would be fascinated to learn more about what you are taking. And no orthos? I tried my Birks, but the arch seems SO hard and painful. I used to wear them daily.

Since you left, I took the plunge and had ESWT in NJ (I don't waste any time.) I'm having a hard time healing, now 3 weeks and still not back to normal life, or even the normal pain level I had before treatment yet! I am almost at my wit's end with the pain and helplessness but am trying to maintain a happy disposition if I can, and to get back into my usual routine little by little. (See how happy I am that you are back, I need your advice already.)

What a wonderful story! I'm so glad you are better. I had tears in my eyes reading how you went for 2 hours before you realized you were pain-free - congratulations!! Maybe I'll go out in search of some cobblestone streets! Cynthia

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner. TO BarbNY and Cynthia

Nancy S. on 2/26/01 at 19:19 (039936)

Hi Barb, thanks for looking up that stuff and for the websites. I'll be very interested in anything else you turn up. That the gel has some anti-inflammatory properties doesn't surprise me, but what does surprise me is that it seems to have good effect for me. Over the last almost two years, at my worst or 'best,' no other anti-inflammatories did a thing for me. Ibuprofen didn't touch the pain, Day-Pro killed my stomach, weeks of Vioxx had no effect at all. I tried bromelain for a long time, and thought it might be helping some, but when I tested it by going off it, I got no worse and then just kind of gave up on it without thinking. Confusing, eh?
I've been reading your success with MSM -- congratulations! I'm going to take some notes from your posts about it, because who knows what the future will bring?

Cynthia, I certainly do remember you, and am glad you took some fast action (ESWT) -- though I'm so sorry you're still in a lot of pain. Since you saw Dr. Z., I take it that you can have another treatment after 12 weeks if no improvement? I'm by no means an ESWT expert -- although I believe in its potential for sure -- but my impression is that it's not rare for a person to need more than one treatment.
I tried an arnica cream from the health store last summer after it was recommended on the board. It didn't do anything for me, unfortunately, but apparently it does help some people. No, I don't think any of the things I'm taking are related to it.
Hang in there, Cynthia! Thank you so much for your nice post.
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Brian G on 2/26/01 at 23:29 (039958)

Hi Nancy,

Good deal, glad you found some relief. Just wondering if you ever had any experience with Homeopathy before heading south? I have a co-worker who has mentioned it to me a couple of times. Never hearing first hand that it could help someone with PF, I kind of blew him off. Now I'm wondering if the American practitioners are any different than those south of the boarder.

Where oh where does one start? I know, the net. Sure would be good to hear some 1st hand knowledge of whats happening in the US. I'm not afraid of some research, just looking for an edge. And of course I'm sure insurance won't touch it with a 10' pole, correct?

Thanks
BG

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Julie on 2/27/01 at 02:30 (039962)

Thank you for this post, Nancy. I'm so glad you've been so dramatically helped by homeopathy. It all makes sense and sounds good: the doctor clearly found the right combination of remedies for you.

The point about homeopathic treatment (before people who've been inspired by your experience, as I'm sure many have been, rush off to buy the remedies that have helped you) is that it is individually prescribed for the PERSON, not the illness. So it's necessary to see a homeopathic physician for a full consultation and evaluation of you, not just of your foot pain. The valerian, calc c and hamamelis that have helped Nancy, wouldn't necessarily help anyone else.

There are a few 'general' remedies, such as arnica, which helps in cases of bruising and bleeding (recommended before and after surgery, btw). But although many remedies are available over the counter, in the UK, anyway, most need to be prescribed.

So where to start, Brian. Perhaps with the internet, but perhaps not. If the system isn't respected and regulated in the States, there probably are a few quacks practising, and you mightn't be able to judge. In England, where homeopathy is highly valued (our own dear Queen swears by it) it would be easy. You would get a recommendation from a friend, or ask to be referred to one of the homeopathic hospitals (the biggest, the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London, is an NHS hospital but most homeopathic treatment is private). Or you'd consult the register of qualified homeopaths and find one in your area. I don't know hether such a register exists in the States, but if it does, you should be able to find it.

The bottom line: I would certainly encourage anyone who is interested to investigate, and and post whatever information you come up with for others. I just wish I could be of more help as regards homeopathy in the States!

Julie

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 02:47 (039963)

Hi Brian,
Unfortunately, I'm sure U.S. insurance companies would laugh a homeopathy coverage request right off the map!
I don't know if practitioners here are different from those in Mexico; I've never had homeopathy for anything before, this was a first, so I have no way to compare.
The guy I saw in Mexico was certified all over his wall, and I'm wondering what qualifications homeopathists are expected to have here in the U.S. If you want to try seeing someone, I think I'd want a good personal recommendation from someone who has been successfully treated by that person.
I checked a lot of homeopathy sites on the Net when I got home, but I haven't found any that were very helpful or informative. If I do, though, I'll let you know!
Buena suerte, Brian ('good luck'),
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 02:58 (039965)

Wow, Julie, your Queen swears by homeopathy? And does the Queen Mother? Because that lady is lasting a long time! Love those hats!
You posted to Brian at the same time I was posting, and it sounds like we're on the same page. But I'm glad you pointed out that the prescribing of remedies is for the individual person. I thought that must be so, because the homeopathy doctor had what looked to be about ten thousand different remedies in his pharmacy there.
Have a great day; I know you must be off and running, while I sit here with insomnia!
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy - where to start?

Julie on 2/27/01 at 03:37 (039969)

Nancy WHAT are you doing up at this hour? It's not because your feet are hurting you is it? It's nice to have a conversation-without-time-leg for a change!

Yes I think the Queen Mum is also a fan of homoepathy. But most people hereabouts think it's the gin that's kept her going.

Hey - she's not MY queen. Please!

But actually, I have to tell you that I have just - after 40 years - applied for British citizenship. The British have always allowed dual nationality, but for many years after I first came here the Americans thought it was tantamount to treason, and excommunicated you if you applied, and I didn't want to lose my US citizenship. Then they relaxed the rules a bit, but still expected you to swear an oath of allegiance and to declare you had no intention of renouncing your homeland. Now, at last (thanks to globalization, no doubt) they 'presume' there is no such intention, and all you have to do is inform them you've taken British citizenship. So I've taken the plunge. And then she will be 'my queen'. Oh dear.

This completely irrelevant post should have been on the SS board. I apologize, Scott.

Good night Nancy, and sleep well (with your feet up).

Julie

Re: Where I would start

Beverly on 2/27/01 at 13:12 (040003)

Brian,

I am not a homeopathic person, but since I have many food allergies, I've spent a good bit of time in healthfood stores and with naturalist nutritionists. I think a good place to begin looking for a reputable homeopathic doctor would be through these places:

1. Call the leading D.O. (as opposed to M.D.) teaching hospital in your area and ask if they have a physician referral line. If they don't, they should be able to refer you to one. D.O.'s tend to be more open to homeopathic things. I would ask if there is a D.O. in the area who uses homeopathic treatments in his/her practice. You will probably find that younger D.O.'s are more likely to be keen on this.

2. Sometimes your local healthfood store will be a good referral source. However, I would exercise some caution here. I once went to an allergist my healthfood store suggested, and before the appointment was over, I was convinced the guy was a quack.

It is unfortunate that our homeopathic remedies in the States are not regulated as they are in Europe.
Best of luck,
Beverly

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

CELIA on 2/27/01 at 13:13 (040004)

Heck I'm willing to try anything right now!!! I wonder if lack of circulation is the reason for my needle pricks running down my legs down to my feet. Think we can find this stuff in the states??

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/27/01 at 14:16 (040012)

For the 'con' side on homeopathy, see http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/go/btcarrol/skeptic/homeo.html Note especially this excerpt:

'One of the stranger tenets of homeopathy, proposed by
Dr. Hahnemann himself, is that the potency of a
remedy increases as the drug becomes more and more
dilute. Some drugs are diluted so many times that they
don't contain any molecules of the substance that was
initially diluted, yet homeopaths claim that these are
their most potent medications! It is not surprising to
find that there is no explanation as to how this happens
or is even possible, though some homeopaths have
speculated that the water used to dilute a remedy has a
'memory' of the initial substance.

Homeopathy's supporters point to clinical trials which
indicate a homeopathic efficacy that cannot be
explained by the placebo effect. Critics contend that
such studies are poorly designed, methodologically
biased, statistically flawed, etc. The known laws of
physics and chemistry would have to be completely
revamped if a tonic from which every molecule of the
'active' ingredient were removed could be shown to
nevertheless to be effective. '

In other words, if you're spending good money on 'remedies' billed as 10C, 20C, 30C, etc., you're essentially buying a placebo. There are many mysteries in the world, but the efficacy of homeopathy is not one of them.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 15:17 (040018)

john a., I had a feeling we could count on you!
What exactly does '10C' '20C' etc. stand for? I'm new to this and would like to know.
I read the site you posted, and have read many others, both pro and con.
It always fascinates me how narrow our current Western medicine likes to keep its focus, and how easily threatened it is by competitors for the attention of folks trying to cure their ills -- some of those competitors being methods much older and more traditional in a real sense than those of our medical establishment. The AMA and big pharmaceutical companies surely do have a powerful grip.
Also interesting is the fact that almost everything I've seen on the Net trying to kill alternative medical approaches in the U.S. has Stephen Barrett's name on it.
Anyway, I've never been a big proponent of alternative medicines because I haven't tried many before. I have to wonder, if I'm vulnerable to the placebo effect, why that didn't kick in when I tried Day-Pro, Vioxx, ibuprofen, bromelain, etc. I was at least as anxious to get rid of my pain when I tried them as when I started taking the homeopathic medicines -- probably more so. I think that's rather a mystery.
As for the money, I spent less on a long supply of homeopathic medicines than I spent on any one of the earlier bad orthotics, bad doctor visits, bad inserts, bad shoes, etc. Doesn't even come close. Considering how much better I'm feeling, would I spend the lesser money on homeopathic medicines again? You bet I would.
Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/27/01 at 16:48 (040022)

Yup, perhaps I should change my moniker to 'john the skeptic' :-) Homeopathy describes the potency of its remedies by a simple notation: a smallish integer followed by a 'X' or 'C' (there may be other letters). The 'X' stands for 10 and the 'C' for 100 (like roman numerals). 'X' means the active ingredient was diluted to 1 part in 10. The integer in front of the X specifies how many times the 1-in-10 dilution was repeated. So, a 6X remedy has had the active ingredient diluted to 1 part in 1,000,000 (six zeroes). And similarly, a 20C remedy has had the active ingredient diluted to 1 part in 1040 (a 1-in-100 dilution, the 'C' part, repeated 20 times). This is already a vanishingly weak solution. The kicker is that you can even buy 200C remedies, that have been diluted to 1 part in 10400, which means that there is almost certainly not even 1 molecule of the active ingredient left! It is this certain absence of something that the homeopaths claim can cure what ails you. And it is this same certain absence that makes skeptics incredulous. How do some studies show that people are helped by homeopathy? Because the studies are flawed. How is it that you yourself were apparently helped by homeopathy? That's not clear. Perhaps it was as simple as it was just your time to get better, and it wouldn't have much mattered what you doing at the time. Also, you mentioned other things your homeopath wanted you to do - eliminate dairy, etc. If you did any of that, maybe that helped. I don't know. But it probably wasn't homeopathy that helped you. I say probably, because if the stuff you took was 'only', say, 6X, there would still have been active ingredient left to be able to have some effect on you. Finally, I don't think the AMA is threatened by homeopathy - there's literally nothing there to be threatened by. And I'm not threatened by it either - I just want people to know what it really is. Homeopathy is the Seinfeld of alternative medicine: it's about 'nothing' :-)

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Nancy S. on 2/27/01 at 17:58 (040028)

Thanks for the math, John. I understood most of it . . . I think. My remedies are 6C.
I guess we just have to differ in our take on the medical establishment's motives when it doesn't recognize acupuncture, homeopathy, and other approaches. I do know there are a lot of quacks out there in alternative medicine -- but I've also met some quack M.D.s and podiatrists. No doubt some homeopathy studies are flawed -- but so are a great many medical establishment studies, as we read constantly in the media. Since different people are helped by different approaches, I don't know why the medical establishment isn't interested in working _with_ a variety of approaches, if it truly has the best interest of the patient in mind. The medical establishment had exhausted all its possibilities for the guy Pete I mentioned, with the badly arthritic arms, and was ready to do surgery -- who knows where that would have landed him?
The homeopathic doctor I saw expressed great frustration over the lack of cooperation among the different medical approaches. It seems to me there should be room for openness to all possibilities. I don't mean to trash regular medicine completely by any means -- I mean if I had a heart attack, I'd want to go to a hospital and be treated by a cardiologist. And I finally did get some medical help with the PF and tendonitis -- it just hadn't taken me all the way.
Actually, I didn't drop the dairy until I got home. And there's always the possibility, as you say, that it was 'just my time' to get better -- but why was I getting worse, not better, until I saw the homeopathist?
I'm in no way saying this is The Answer for everyone. Maybe it's the answer for very few people. I still believe it helped and is helping me, and I know two other people who are wholehearted believers based on experience and research. I think it should remain available, probably be regulated in some way, and not written off as quackery by M.D.s who I think ARE threatened by approaches outside their own world. Not all are -- I've read about some M.D.s with open minds who end up being pioneers in fighting certain illnesses because they blend the purely specialized approach with holistic approaches. But I've seen too many others with, let's face it, an ego or turf problem, which I think stands in the way of a wider vision and of more opportunities & choices for people with hard-to-treat ailments.
Ok, I'll end with an old Mexican proverb:

The truth suffers, but never perishes.

Nancy

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 2/28/01 at 02:14 (040053)

This discussion, which erupted while I was peacefully sleeping in my bed, has been very interesting to me. Living in England, where homeopathy is respected by most people and in fact considered mainstream by a large segment of the orthodox medical establishment, I'm sorry to find the the attitude towards it in my home country so cynical.

I understand how people in such a climate of cynicism might find it difficult to accept the underlying principle of homoeopathy, and I'm familiar with the debunking arguments John A put forward. I'm also familiar with the triumphant cry of 'flawed research' that is used to knock down all systems of complementary medicine. We should all be aware that the the drug companies have no vested interest in putting up the funds for the kind or research the medical establishment would acknowledge as valid. No funds = no 'proper' research = negative judgement and dismissal of quackery/placebo effect etc etc.

But I'd like to show how differently homoepathy is regarded in a different culture and climate, by briefly describing the Royal London Homoepathic Hospital. The Yoga Therapy Centre, where I teach my class for people with cancer, is based there, so I've learned a little about it.

The RLHH is an NHS (National Health Service) hospital. It is staffed by medical doctors who have also qualified as homoeopaths and practice both allopathic and homoeopathic medicine. Patients are referred by their GPs, or their specialist consultants for treatment for a very wide spectrum of conditions, including cancer and heart disease, and any treatment prescribed is reported back to the referring doctor. There is, in other words, complete co-operation between the two, and an acceptance on both sides that both systems have much to offer. Treatment at the hospital is free, as long as the patient has been referred within the system; the hospital also accepts private patients, who pay or are covered by their own private insurance.

Over the years in England I've known many - I mean hundreds - of individuals who have been effectively treated by homoepathy. OK, it's considered 'fringe' in the States, and isn't regulated there. But you should know that it is highly valued in other cultures. It's sad to find a valid healing system debunked and dismissed on this board of all places, and I hope that won't discourage anyone who feels inclined to investigate homoeopathy for the help it might be able to offer.

But I repeat what I said yesterday: please don't make the mistake of buying over-the-counter homoeopathic remedies. Locate a homoeopath (Beverly's suggesition of consulting a D.O. is a good place to start) and have the remedies properly prescribed for you.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 08:06 (040060)

So, your 6C remedies have a strength of 1 part per trillion (10 12). Plain old tap water has plenty of impurities at greater concentrations than that. Please think about that. And Nancy S., I am glad you're getting better, whatever the reason - if it's one thing this world needs less of, it's pain.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 08:18 (040061)

There has been no 'eruption' here over the merits of homeopathy. Nancy S and I have been expressing differing opinions, that's all. As for it being sad to find debunking going on on this board, it would be truly sad if we all did nothing but agree with each other, especially when a contrary opinion has validity.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

wendyn on 2/28/01 at 09:47 (040065)

I have no opinion whatsoever on homeopathy -I don't know enough about it yet. I think that if it works - go with it (I don't really 'believe' in acupuncture either but it sure seems to help me). I also think that questioning and skepticism are essential to this board. If we all agreed on everything, this would be a very boring place.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 2/28/01 at 09:51 (040066)

Please forgive me, John, for my ill-advised use of the word 'erupted'. It was very early in the morning. I should have said 'started'.

Let's be accurate, though. You weren't really expressing an opinion on homoepathy, you were dismissing it. Saying that homoepathy is 'nothing', and that anyone who 'pays good money for it is buying a placebo' (in other words, is deluded) is debunking.

Nancy posted about her good experience with homoepathy. Her improvement is a fact, not an opinion.

You're right that it would be sad if we were all to agree with each other: no-one would ever learn anything, and that is patently not true of this board, where we all learn a lot from each other's experiences.

But I think it's more productive to have discussions in a spirit of goodwill and acceptance. I have no particular commitment to homoepathy: I made my post because I thought it would interest you and others to know that a branch of medicine viewed as quackery on your side of the pond is respected and valued and taken seriously on this side. This too is fact, not opinion.

I believe that each of the complementary therapies has a great deal to offer, and that the two 'sides' are eventually going to have to draw closer together in the interests of patients, in the U.S. as they are doing here (though it may take longer in the States where the vested interests are probably even more powerful). For example: I am a trustee of a cancer charity which maintains a register of complementary therapists for cancer patients who want to explore non-orthodox as well as orthodox avenues of treatment and healing, but our primary aim is to bring about integration of allopathic and complementary care in the treatment of all cancer patients. Our annual conference is attended by an approximately equal number of health professionals working in the NHS including doctors and nurses, and complementary therapist of all persuasions.

BTW, how do you manage to get the words you want to emphasize to come out in bold?

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 13:58 (040089)

I was expressing my opinion that one of the fundamental tenets of homeopathy is absurd, namely, the idea that diluting a substance to the point of non-existence gives it curative powers. I cannot get past the absurdity of this idea. It flies in the face of everything we know about physics and chemistry and common sense. If you gave a 20C potion to a lab, they could not even detect the active ingredient. And yet we are supposed to believe that this potion can cure. Now, Nancy's improvement may be a fact, but what is not a fact is that her improvement is due to homeopathy. There may be other things that homeopaths do that can in fact help people, but selling them potions with no active ingredients is simply dishonest. [ BTW, you can add pizzazz to your posts by using some simple html tags: <b>this will be bold</b> <i>this will be in italics</i> ]

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Barbara TX on 2/28/01 at 15:45 (040096)

But aren't Nancy's potions 6 c and not 20c? Couldn't you detect that in lab analysis? If you can, then her potions are active, and thus, curative (if she has experienced improvement).

Lots of my friends are into homeopathy, and some say it works. What makes me sceptical is the fact that their homeopaths do not give them the ingredients of their tinctures for fear that the patient would go somewhere else for them or try to make them at home (what's the big deal about that)? However, Nancy got specific names and dosages, so he sounds like a good guy.

For the first time after the birth of my daughter I used an herbal remedy (goldenseal powder) to put on the stump of her umbilical cord. With my first baby, even the most solicitious care was used in cleaning my son's cord with the traditional alcohol. Still, it went to mush and infected. The cord stayed on for three weeks! With baby #2, the goldenseal dried it up to nothing in FOUR DAYS. I took the baby into the doctor and the cord was already gone and he was amazed. Would he recommend it to his patients as well? No way. Traditional medicine and traditional minds get stuck in ruts.

I say, if it works, do it, but I absolutely agree that there needs to be some active ingredient present (of course)! B.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john a on 2/28/01 at 16:43 (040105)

This link http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/P/Ppm.html seems to suggest that 1 part per trillion is barely detectable. That's what 6C is. But it is still a 'vanishingly small' concentration. And I agree that lots of herbs and plant extracts can and do affect the body, just not when they're not even there :-)

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

wendyn on 2/28/01 at 17:00 (040109)

I have 'Alternative Medicine for Dummies' (James Dillard and Terra Ziporyn) and it goes into almost every alternative medicine available. It gives both sides - here are some highlights....

'Today the National Center for Homeopathy estimates that the amount of money spent worldwisde on homeopathy is between 1 billion and 5 billion dollars a year.....Homeopathic hosiptals are part of the national health system in Great Britain....'

'Nothing may be something...we're talking about really diluted doses here. So diluted that - from an objective standpoint you're really taking plain old water, sugar pills, or alcohol.'

'The best evidence so far suggests that certain homeopathic remedies may help relieve allergic asthma, hay fever, migraine headaches, childhood diarrrhea, rhumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia and trauma - and decrease the duration of labor...'

..'Even so, at least a few homeopathic remedies have overcome these hurdles. Over the past two decades, several high-quality studies suggesting that homeopathy can work (and work _better_ than placebos) have appeared in major _mainstream_ peer-reviewed medical journals ....aa few good studies show that homeopathic remedies can work on animals...'

Basically the book verifies what John is saying (there is so little ingredient in the water that it technically is just water) but it also says that it may just work. If it works for you - go with it.

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Brian G on 2/28/01 at 20:20 (040125)

What a great string this has been. It's been very informative, from both sides. This is exactlly why I follow a few message boards. Whether this is a viable treatment will probably be debated for years. Thanks to this board, I'll now get to reseach it, and who knows, it may just help my PF. Without the board, I probably would have just blown it off, like I did when one of my managers at work mentioned it about a year ago.

Thanks to all
Bran G

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

Julie on 3/01/01 at 02:12 (040137)

John

I'm not trying to persuade you to embrace homoeopathy. But I would like you to open your mind to a system that has proven to be effective, even though you cannot see how it works. I assure you that it is more than the placebo effect. The millions of people in the UK who have had successful homoeopathic treatment are not paying out the billions of pounds Wendy cited for a placebo. Dogs, horses, cows and other animals almost invariably respond to homoepathic treatment: they don't know about the placebo effect.

Scepticism is vital: we'd have no science and no medicine (allopathic or holistic/complementary) without it. But I believe that anything that flies in the face of what we know about physics or chemistry or anything else should make us curious, not dismissive.

Scientists themselves are constantly finding out things that fly in the face of what they know, and are always questioning their paramaters and belief systems. That's how they make new discoveries that invalidate old ones and add to the sum of our knowledge. They are also increasingly acknowledging the validity of ancient systems of healing: yoga, traditional Chinese medicine including acupuncture, herbalism, to name but a few.

My interest is in healing, which is not the same as curing. Healing is about creating balance: balance on all levels of a person's being, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. The mechanistic, fragmented view of so much conventional medicine obscures this truth; whereas most of the holistic therapies, of which homoepathy is one, are founded upon it. This is at the heart of what they have to contribute to health and healing.

All the best

Julie

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 02:14 (040138)

Oh dear! I tried John's html suggestion for emboldening a word and the whole message following that word (how) got emboldened. Apologies for shouting.

John, how do I isolate a word, please?

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

john a on 3/01/01 at 08:49 (040159)

You need to enclose the text you want to hilight in the html tags - you forgot to use the closing </b> tag. (perhaps this cat should not have been let out of the bag. Forgetting the closing tag can affect the appearance of all messages following the one in which the mistake is made, which is especially bothersome when viewing messages since last visit. I guess Scott could 'escape' all such html tags he finds in messages, so that they lose their html formatting significance, but then we'd lose some of our expressiveness.

Re: Not quite shouting

Bill E on 3/01/01 at 08:57 (040161)

Well, I don't think that the bold is quite the same as all CAPS and shouting.
Maybe a mini html post somewhere would help all of us. But john hit the major ones. It just takes some practice. And I am a little too lazy to do it very often. *s*

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 09:01 (040162)

Thanks for explaining this, John. I didn't forget, I just didn't know. Let's see if I've got it right now.

Re: Re:Apology for shouting

Julie on 3/01/01 at 09:03 (040163)

Nope. I enclosed the word 'right', but 'now' came up bold too. I think I'll just forget it. Apologies again for (not quite - thanks, Bill) shouting if this whole message is bold.

Julie

Re: Homeopathy -- an unexpected winner

john h on 3/01/01 at 09:40 (040169)

nancy: i do not remember you posting much about 'swelling' in your feet. is the swelling in one particular spot or generalized swelling. sure sounds as though there is a problem beyond pf. after all this time i am sure you must have had a good general workup from an internist as swelling of the feet can be caused by a myraid of conditions. blood flow to the feet can be measured, blood test can detect kindney/liver function. blockage of blood flow to the feet is not uncommon as dr z will attest. i would be all over that swelling of the feet to find out why.

Re: HTML Tag Crib Sheet

john a on 3/01/01 at 11:07 (040184)






































To get this effectType this
This text is bold<b>This text is bold</b>
This text is in italics<i>This text is in italics</i>
This text is underlined<u>This text is underlined</u>
This word is superscriptedThis <sup>word</sup> is superscripted
This word is subscriptedThis <sub>word</sub> is subscripted
This text is smaller<small>This text is smaller</small>
This text is bigger<big>This text is bigger</big>
This text is striked<strike>This text is striked</strike>
Bold, underlined and in italics<b><u><i>This text is bold<i></u></b>
  • Unordered list item one
  • Unordered list item two
<ul><li>Unordered list item one</li>
<li>Unordered list item two</li></ul>
  1. Ordered list item one
  2. Ordered list item two
<ol><li>Ordered list item one</li>
<li>Ordered list item two</li></ol>


You can find all these and many more html tags described at http://developer.netscape.com/docs/manuals/htmlguid/index.htm

Re: HTML Tag Crib Sheet - thanks for it

Julie on 3/02/01 at 03:12 (040251)

Thanks, John. I've printed this out and will study and use it. In my 'test' last night I didn't use the /cancel sign when closing. My apologies to everyone who has been bugged by all that bold type. I'll never do it again!

Yours in embarrassment

Julie