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To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Posted by Kim B. on 3/31/01 at 11:51 (043144)

Hi Paula,

As much as I respect Dr. Z opinions, and appreciate all that he does for us here, I want you to know I, for one, agree with your concerns regarding the 'Blue Light Special.' From the first time I read it, I understood exactly what you meant by it. I think you were attempting to give Dr. Z some honest input regarding his practice. Most places of business appreciate feed back from the public.

Unfortunately, some here were so quick to judge YOU that they failed to see the truths in your post. It's a good example of 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater'. On the other hand, maybe they did see the truths, and chose to ignore it, because they would really rather spend time raking you over the coals than looking at the facts. Some closed-minded people here prefer that only things that they personally agree with should be posted here. It seems they want to 'control the board.' It's sad. This forum should be used as a vehicle for an exchange of information and different ideas.

Unfortunately, from the outside looking in, it looks as though this forum has turned into an occult of Dr. Zuckerman worshipers. Yes, Dr. Z. has earned and deserves to have a good following here, however, is he really above scrutiny? A post that questions his practices got him promoted to saint status! Come on people!

Other docs would hang out here and help us out more, (taking a load off of Dr. Z. in the process,) if it didn't look so much like we were some kind of an occult and Dr. Z was our guru! Anytime someone adversely questions, or brings up a debate with Dr. Z, a bunch of regulars swarm around him, as if to protect him. He's a grown man, a Doctor for heaven's sake! He doesn't need to be protected. This is getting weirder every day!

So, Pauline, I am disappointed, but not surprised, by the reaction you received for your attempt at posting your impression of this situation. So many of the responses to your post were rude and hateful. I find that so ironic! Maybe the humorous subject line ticked them off. Some people dislike people they disagree with being humorous in any way.

I don't think that what you said about the blue light special was intended to be seriously insulting. I get the impression you were trying to make light of a serious concern. A concern that I too, have felt at times. It's amazing how people can turn something so innocent in to the crime of the century. I haven't seen this much over-reaction to a post in a long time. Moreover, as far as I can tell, the things you said were truthful. Some in this group have managed to twist and contort your words in to an evil personal transgression against Dr. Z. Some people at this board are very good at that...others here LIVE FOR IT!

THE TRUTH should be this groups first concern. Aside from that, we should be allowed (and expected) to disagree around here, without getting a public lasing for it!

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I, and probably some others, saw the truth in your post and took it in the light in which it was probably intended. Like me, others would probably have jumped in and offered feedback too; if it weren't for the huge lashing, they would probably get for it. I just felt like at least one person should let you know you were right on target in the first place, and it was the others who stirred it up till is stank real good. In fact, they did a similar thing to me last week though I must admit I was a bit out of line and may have deserved a small keyboard lashing, (or as adults, they could have left it alone to the two ADULTS that were involved. But instead, it got blown way out of proportion etc., my apology wasn't good enough either, etc…)

Thank you for having the nerve to post your opinion even though it evidently went against the mainstream here. Personally, I think that everyone's opinion is valuable. Minority opinions are valid and shouldn't be shamed in such a way. It's somewhat sad though, this board used to be a democracy where we could air our opinions and concerns without such a backlash of rude and hateful comments.

As long as what is written is truthful, I think people should be allowed to 'post their conscience.' I'm glad you did. Until I read your post, I thought I was the only one who saw it that way. I'll bet you that there are others who feel this way too.

Best Regards,
Another town sinner,
Kim B.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Pauline on 3/31/01 at 14:25 (043161)

Thanks Kim,
Your right, it was a matter of professional ethics. To those that are give so much, much more is expected of them. I choose not to lower my standards on morality or ethics just to please a crowd. Have a great Easter.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

pf suffere on 3/31/01 at 15:02 (043164)

So this is a moral or ethics based thing? An opinion is entitled to everyone, but you seemed to have a snide tone thru this whole thread. While you may feel Dr Z was 'marketing' his service in a less than professional way, you means of wording it is what put so many people off. I would bet if Dr Z advertised ESWT for, say $3000 per foot, you would say that he is a crook and should do it for less. Looking at your past posts you seem to have issues with Doctors,Podiatrists in particular.
I will grant you that in all professions Doctors include there are bad seeds, but there are more constructive ways of wording it in a public forum.

Another way to maybe help you understand it. What if Dr Z had your attitude in reverse and came on here and said Pauline is another one of those whiny patients that claims to have heel pain, its all in her head, she should just suck it up and get on with it. You wouldnt like that either I assume. Again Dr Z is doing something on here many Doctors would never do, they are too busy to be bothered. Is he marketing a service, damn right he is it is part of his job. I think his method should catch on more than all the failed plantar releases done too often now.

Again its not my intent to prolong this, but I think your tone of sarcasm thru the whole thing is what made folks so defensive. If it was truly all you were trying to do was point out the way you felt on marketing issues you could have done it in a more constructive way..........me dos centavos

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

john h on 3/31/01 at 18:25 (043170)

For what it is worth i do not 'worship' dr z but respect him as a doctor experienced in EWST who spends more time with his patients than the most doctors. form my two visits to his office he seems more than just knowledgeable about ESWT but somone who has devoted a lot of research to the subject. i could have gone to several closer places for ESWT from Little Rock than New Jersey but chose him because i thought that is where i would receive treatment from one the most experienced doctors around. I will add that i have talked to doctors in 4-5 cities and he does make the treatment more afordable and free for one person each month. I am glad he is here because i would not be able to afford all the free medical advice/information he dispense.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

paula gr on 3/31/01 at 18:39 (043174)

i also did not like the cyber stoning. many of us live with an awful lot of pain and frustration. sarcasm is probably better than severe depression. i have great compassion for all of us who are suffering including pauline. and i also appreciate dr z and all theother doctors and orhtotic folk that help us here

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Mary AnnS on 3/31/01 at 18:49 (043179)

This is really tacky. As we all know Dr. Z is giving his professional opinion and all his experience to help everyone here who asks for help. He believes in ESWT and is being generous in his offers. Why attack him,and I feel what you have written is an attack. If you don't like it OK. But this doesn't have to go on and on and on.......Kim you are known to stir things up and more than once. Let it go.

Re: To Mary:

Kim B. on 3/31/01 at 23:27 (043196)

Dear Mary, such a pretty name...

I have as much right to post my thoughts on the topic of the way Pauline was treated for her post, as you have to post what you just posted about me. Your post to me was rude and offensive and that's the way you intended it to be. What you're saying just seems to come off a bit hypocritical. But honey, you simply can't have it both ways. You want to have the freedom to post YOUR opinion, but you don't want me to have the freedom to post mine.

My name is on the front of each post I write. If you don't like my posts, don't open them. Ok? And, I promise not to ever open any more of your's. Deal?

Sincerely, Kim B.

Re: STOP ALREADY

HORSELUV-R on 4/01/01 at 04:56 (043205)

dang i thought i was in a adult discussion board.i want help not a bunch of arguing and fighting.i see alot of opinions here, and see some advertising ESWT here, but i choose what i want to do without the influence of others. i want all to have a great and GOD blessed day.this was my first time in here, and won't be back.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Scott R on 4/01/01 at 09:51 (043215)

Mary, I don't think Kim's post was unduly tacky. I didn't really feel Kim's post was an 'attack' on Dr. Z. She stated her concerns without being too personal, I thought. She is supporting Pauline and since I didn't see any other posts on Pauline's side, it's important to know Pauline has at least one supporter and that supporter should express her concerns. I have warned Kim about her posts and did not like to she her post that responds to yours. She escalated the negative thoughts expressed in your post. But your post seemed to be the first one to get personal. I would have objected strongly to both posts if they had occured in the other boards.

I did not think Pauline's initial post was too far out of line and most of the discussion that followed was not too bad considering the nature of what was discussed (Dr. Z's motives).

It is requiring too much of my time to judge when posts are violating the be nice rule. The age old internet newsgroup wisdom is 'when in doubt, don't respond'. It leaves the initial poster without a wind to blow in his/her sail. Others reading posts can see the same things you see. It doesn't have to be pointed out. Responding to mean people, if they are truly mean, only gives them the social interaction they are craving and missing in their everyday life. This may or may not apply to anyone here.

It's usually best to discuss the facts presented in a post and not the post itself or the poster.

In defense of Pauline, I should say that she had sent me several messages about Dr. Z. I had invited her to post her concerns in the message board.

Re: To Mary:

too bad stay on 4/01/01 at 11:42 (043224)

i jope you stay, your poat sounds much like the ladt that made the dodge.chevy truck analogy. at least stay till you foot pain is better

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/03/01 at 10:59 (043429)

Hello all,
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. Having worked with our good Doctor, I can tell you there is no such thing as a blue light special. When Dr. Z is able to offer his services at a reduced rate, he does so for the simple purpose of making this treatment available to as many patients suffering from heel pain as possible. And of course he would 'advertise' the ability to do so here, in an open forum for patients.
Hope you all are doing well!
Dr.Z, keep up the good work.

Katie

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

JudyS on 4/03/01 at 13:10 (043443)

Kate - you are to be commended for checking in with us - thank you! And...how are YOU these days?

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Julie on 4/03/01 at 17:37 (043484)

Thank you, Kate. I think that was just what we needed. It's good of you to post.

Quite apart from anything else, we miss you. Post more often!

All the best, Julie

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/04/01 at 15:38 (043591)

I'm always just around the corner.........and think of you all often!
I'm doing very well thank you, keeping very busy. But never too busy to check in on the boards and our Dr.Z!
Hope you all are well, you're all in my thoughts!

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/04/01 at 15:42 (043592)

And I miss all of you........more than you can imagine!
Orthopaedics is interesting and challenging..........but the patients are nearly quite as personable (or entertaining!) And no one brings me chocolates!

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Julie on 4/04/01 at 15:46 (043595)

Kate - tell us what you are doing in orthopaedics.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/05/01 at 09:23 (043686)

Julie, I'm the clinical/adminstrative assistant to the director of Orthopaedic surgery for U 0f Penn. Sounds much more impressive than it acutally is........we have a huge patient base and see sometimes more than 50 patients a day in the office and another 10 to 12 a day inpatient. So I don't have alot of time to actually spend with our patients, which is something I really miss. Academically this is a very interesting position, and I'm learning so much. I also have the pleasure of working with some very talented physicians.(But sadly enough not a bow-tie in the bunch!)
I do wish though that some of our patients who are suffering with chronic pain (post-traumatic, arthritic, etc.)could have a site like this. I'm been surfing the net but haven't been able to find anything. I have a few patients who could use the peer support. Does anyone know of any such site?
Let me know if you do...
Thanks all............

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Pauline on 3/31/01 at 14:25 (043161)

Thanks Kim,
Your right, it was a matter of professional ethics. To those that are give so much, much more is expected of them. I choose not to lower my standards on morality or ethics just to please a crowd. Have a great Easter.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

pf suffere on 3/31/01 at 15:02 (043164)

So this is a moral or ethics based thing? An opinion is entitled to everyone, but you seemed to have a snide tone thru this whole thread. While you may feel Dr Z was 'marketing' his service in a less than professional way, you means of wording it is what put so many people off. I would bet if Dr Z advertised ESWT for, say $3000 per foot, you would say that he is a crook and should do it for less. Looking at your past posts you seem to have issues with Doctors,Podiatrists in particular.
I will grant you that in all professions Doctors include there are bad seeds, but there are more constructive ways of wording it in a public forum.

Another way to maybe help you understand it. What if Dr Z had your attitude in reverse and came on here and said Pauline is another one of those whiny patients that claims to have heel pain, its all in her head, she should just suck it up and get on with it. You wouldnt like that either I assume. Again Dr Z is doing something on here many Doctors would never do, they are too busy to be bothered. Is he marketing a service, damn right he is it is part of his job. I think his method should catch on more than all the failed plantar releases done too often now.

Again its not my intent to prolong this, but I think your tone of sarcasm thru the whole thing is what made folks so defensive. If it was truly all you were trying to do was point out the way you felt on marketing issues you could have done it in a more constructive way..........me dos centavos

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

john h on 3/31/01 at 18:25 (043170)

For what it is worth i do not 'worship' dr z but respect him as a doctor experienced in EWST who spends more time with his patients than the most doctors. form my two visits to his office he seems more than just knowledgeable about ESWT but somone who has devoted a lot of research to the subject. i could have gone to several closer places for ESWT from Little Rock than New Jersey but chose him because i thought that is where i would receive treatment from one the most experienced doctors around. I will add that i have talked to doctors in 4-5 cities and he does make the treatment more afordable and free for one person each month. I am glad he is here because i would not be able to afford all the free medical advice/information he dispense.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

paula gr on 3/31/01 at 18:39 (043174)

i also did not like the cyber stoning. many of us live with an awful lot of pain and frustration. sarcasm is probably better than severe depression. i have great compassion for all of us who are suffering including pauline. and i also appreciate dr z and all theother doctors and orhtotic folk that help us here

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Mary AnnS on 3/31/01 at 18:49 (043179)

This is really tacky. As we all know Dr. Z is giving his professional opinion and all his experience to help everyone here who asks for help. He believes in ESWT and is being generous in his offers. Why attack him,and I feel what you have written is an attack. If you don't like it OK. But this doesn't have to go on and on and on.......Kim you are known to stir things up and more than once. Let it go.

Re: To Mary:

Kim B. on 3/31/01 at 23:27 (043196)

Dear Mary, such a pretty name...

I have as much right to post my thoughts on the topic of the way Pauline was treated for her post, as you have to post what you just posted about me. Your post to me was rude and offensive and that's the way you intended it to be. What you're saying just seems to come off a bit hypocritical. But honey, you simply can't have it both ways. You want to have the freedom to post YOUR opinion, but you don't want me to have the freedom to post mine.

My name is on the front of each post I write. If you don't like my posts, don't open them. Ok? And, I promise not to ever open any more of your's. Deal?

Sincerely, Kim B.

Re: STOP ALREADY

HORSELUV-R on 4/01/01 at 04:56 (043205)

dang i thought i was in a adult discussion board.i want help not a bunch of arguing and fighting.i see alot of opinions here, and see some advertising ESWT here, but i choose what i want to do without the influence of others. i want all to have a great and GOD blessed day.this was my first time in here, and won't be back.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Scott R on 4/01/01 at 09:51 (043215)

Mary, I don't think Kim's post was unduly tacky. I didn't really feel Kim's post was an 'attack' on Dr. Z. She stated her concerns without being too personal, I thought. She is supporting Pauline and since I didn't see any other posts on Pauline's side, it's important to know Pauline has at least one supporter and that supporter should express her concerns. I have warned Kim about her posts and did not like to she her post that responds to yours. She escalated the negative thoughts expressed in your post. But your post seemed to be the first one to get personal. I would have objected strongly to both posts if they had occured in the other boards.

I did not think Pauline's initial post was too far out of line and most of the discussion that followed was not too bad considering the nature of what was discussed (Dr. Z's motives).

It is requiring too much of my time to judge when posts are violating the be nice rule. The age old internet newsgroup wisdom is 'when in doubt, don't respond'. It leaves the initial poster without a wind to blow in his/her sail. Others reading posts can see the same things you see. It doesn't have to be pointed out. Responding to mean people, if they are truly mean, only gives them the social interaction they are craving and missing in their everyday life. This may or may not apply to anyone here.

It's usually best to discuss the facts presented in a post and not the post itself or the poster.

In defense of Pauline, I should say that she had sent me several messages about Dr. Z. I had invited her to post her concerns in the message board.

Re: To Mary:

too bad stay on 4/01/01 at 11:42 (043224)

i jope you stay, your poat sounds much like the ladt that made the dodge.chevy truck analogy. at least stay till you foot pain is better

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/03/01 at 10:59 (043429)

Hello all,
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. Having worked with our good Doctor, I can tell you there is no such thing as a blue light special. When Dr. Z is able to offer his services at a reduced rate, he does so for the simple purpose of making this treatment available to as many patients suffering from heel pain as possible. And of course he would 'advertise' the ability to do so here, in an open forum for patients.
Hope you all are doing well!
Dr.Z, keep up the good work.

Katie

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

JudyS on 4/03/01 at 13:10 (043443)

Kate - you are to be commended for checking in with us - thank you! And...how are YOU these days?

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Julie on 4/03/01 at 17:37 (043484)

Thank you, Kate. I think that was just what we needed. It's good of you to post.

Quite apart from anything else, we miss you. Post more often!

All the best, Julie

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/04/01 at 15:38 (043591)

I'm always just around the corner.........and think of you all often!
I'm doing very well thank you, keeping very busy. But never too busy to check in on the boards and our Dr.Z!
Hope you all are well, you're all in my thoughts!

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/04/01 at 15:42 (043592)

And I miss all of you........more than you can imagine!
Orthopaedics is interesting and challenging..........but the patients are nearly quite as personable (or entertaining!) And no one brings me chocolates!

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Julie on 4/04/01 at 15:46 (043595)

Kate - tell us what you are doing in orthopaedics.

Re: To Pauline (and the group) re: her recent cyber stoning at ESWT.

Kate on 4/05/01 at 09:23 (043686)

Julie, I'm the clinical/adminstrative assistant to the director of Orthopaedic surgery for U 0f Penn. Sounds much more impressive than it acutally is........we have a huge patient base and see sometimes more than 50 patients a day in the office and another 10 to 12 a day inpatient. So I don't have alot of time to actually spend with our patients, which is something I really miss. Academically this is a very interesting position, and I'm learning so much. I also have the pleasure of working with some very talented physicians.(But sadly enough not a bow-tie in the bunch!)
I do wish though that some of our patients who are suffering with chronic pain (post-traumatic, arthritic, etc.)could have a site like this. I'm been surfing the net but haven't been able to find anything. I have a few patients who could use the peer support. Does anyone know of any such site?
Let me know if you do...
Thanks all............