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Note from Dr. Jan-Dirk Rompe

Posted by Pauline on 4/25/01 at 08:20 (045652)

The more I look into the Orbasone/Ossanol and what has been said about the studies done on this machine the more concern I have that a good deal of what has been posted may have given potiental patients the wrong impression.

Dr. Jan-Dirk Rompe M.D. is one of the formost researchers in Germany, studing the effects of ESWT for the past 10 years and part of what she wrote to me is the following.

'Dear Pauline,
In Europe, especially in Germany, we do not know about a shock wave machine called Ossanol. We have been testing machines from well-known manufacturers like Storz, Siemens, Dornier, Direx, and Wolf. Encouraging
results for the treatment of plantar heel pain was reported for all of their machines.

Yours sincerely,
Jan D. Rompe M.D.

** Ossanol/Orbasone same machine different name for European sales.

I think this pretty much confirms that the thousands of pages of tests results that were done in Europe on ESWT that Dr. Z refers to when defending the Orbasone/ Ossanol machine he is using really had no relationship to his machine. I think it safe to say that no protocol on treatment has been set through any scientific studies for the Orbasone/Ossanol machine anywhere. It appears use of the Orbasone/Ossanol machine is currently a 'learn as you go' procedure not backed by any scientific studies for the treatment of soft tissue diseases including Plantar Fasciitis.

Re: "Encouraging results.........reported for all machines" What have I been saying ???!!!

Steve P on 4/25/01 at 10:37 (045665)

Well, Pauline, you help make the point I've been making all along. I've yet to see any evidence that the different ESWT machines produce significantly different results.

My conclusion has been reinforced time & time again (including today) by various articles & reports from docs using the different machines.

As I've pointed out before, Scott's ESWT patients database shows remarkably similar results for the Ossatron, Sonocur & Orbasone. Statistically, you can barely see the light of day between them.

So thanks for reinforcing my point. 'Encouraging results' are to be found everywhere, from Germany to New Jersey!

Oh, and one more thing.......ALL ESWT machines are 'learn as you go'. As you should know by now, this is not cookie-cutter medicine.

Re: Note from Dr. Jan-Dirk Rompe

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 12:31 (045676)

Ok you win. I never stated that there were thousand of studies for the orbasone machine. The orbasone has been in use in Europe and used by many physician. Some who I have spoken with and learned from. What do yo take me for. I just didn't take a machine and start from day one.

It isn't safe to say that there is no treatment protocol for the orbasone.
I was shown a treatment protocol by my instructor who came to my office over one year ago.
I am member of the ISWT, one of the first USA member. There was even a paper on the orbasone at the Berlin International conference.

Learn as you go is exactly how the ossatron and any machine outthere are taught. Do you really think that once you are shown the procedure that is it

If you have done any research on what makes the procedure more effective
you will find that it is the experience of the treating doctor. This isn't my opinion this is a quote from the ISWT.

Oh by the way. I have communicated with Dr. Rompe many times. Thanks I never knew that I was e-mailing a woman . Doesn' matter but thanks for the research.

Re: To Steve "Encouraging results.........reported for all machines" What have I been saying ???!!!

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 13:33 (045679)

Dr.Jan-Dirk Rompe was refering to the machines from the manufactures they have been testing. As a competent, well respected physician she is not likely to include or make reference to machines not included in their studies. Surely you would know this.

Re: Pauline --- I stand by my statement. Dr. Rompe confirms once again what others have stated repeatedly--- good results from MANY different ESWT machines. eom

Steve P on 4/25/01 at 15:40 (045701)

.

Re: Pauline --- I stand by my statement. Dr. Rompe confirms once again what others have stated repeatedly--- good results from MANY different ESWT machines. eom

Jill P on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045703)

Steve, I think you are right too. I think Pauline's statement communicates that there is really no difference between the machines. Also as you pointed out, the results on the page here recording ESWT progress would point to that as well.

I think possibly Pauline's problem is that she has not had personal experience with the Orbasone or any ESWT machine. She's more hung up on trying to find something wrong with the Orbasone than on trying to overcome PF pain. Perhaps she didn't seem my post to her on another thread, but I watched the video of the Ossatron on the video section here, and it was the same treatment I had with the Orbasone minus the need for the sterile gowns in a surgery center inflating the cost of the procedure. Oh, and minus the sedation thankfully as I much prefer to be alert and in control of what is happening to my body! :)

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 17:53 (045718)

Let say that two companies make two machines. They are both made from Spark gap technology. They both have the same size generator. They both can treat at the F2 area with the same amount of energy.

They both meet international testing for electric safey etc. Now one company has a few different bells and whistles. Another company enable the machine to be smaller. May be one has better transportation etc.

Another example would be computer. IBM and Gateway are about the same inside each have a CPU the brain. each have a keyboard. etc.

The only real difference is the customer service issue or mayb the sreen is includes. Well this is the ESWT machine market for heel pain in a very simple nut shell.

It you know what the power setting need to be for treatment to be effective and safe then you can built the machine yourself. Or you could be an experience company that know how to manufactor their machine alot cheaper. Japon and Germany seems to be the right combination for cost reduction.

Gateway was a very small company no body knew when IBM ran the show. But IBM had a patent ( I think) no one in the ESWT has the patent for spark gap technology. Can you believe this. ?

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

pf sufferer on 4/25/01 at 19:37 (045730)

SOUNDS LIKE SOMEBODY ON HERE EITHER HAS AN AXE TO GRIND OR HAS STOCK IN A CERTAIN COMPANY. FOLKS GET INTO PISSIES ABOUT LASIK EYE SP, I WOULD RATHER PUT MORE TRUST IN THE PRACTITIONER THAN THE MACHINE. NO DISRESPECT BUT WHAT IS THE REASON FOR SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ON TEARING DOWN A SPECIFIC MACHINE WHEN YOU PROBABLY WILL NEVER USE IT OR BE TREATED BY IT??

Re: I hate all of these ESWT machines.

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 19:50 (045733)

now this is the best answer I have read yet about any of these #%% machine.

Did I tell you I really hate all of these machine. They are too expense. Too much trouble to repair and wear out. When i got involved with ESWT that was my only concern they are machines and I can't control what they might need and they need alot of repair and maintance.

The parts are other just idea. I needed a filter for my orbasone and so I went order this filter that really looked like a small fish tank filte until the price was $550 well I track down the parts manufactor and got the stupid thing for $40 bucks. Yes same part for $40 bucks.

How would like to have to call patients and tell them we going to have to postpone your treatment the machine is being repaired. The machine the machine. I hate them

By the way I have become really good at maintance and some repair of the orbasone.

Re: I hate all of these ESWT machines.

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 21:50 (045755)

Dr. Z,
You acted to fast. You purchased on impulse. Should have checked it out.
What is that old saying ' Act in haste, Repent in leisure' Your's was probably made on a Monday to boot.

Don't worry as soon as the OssaTron gets insurance coverage you'll probably abandon your faithful companion 'Orbaso'. You thought I didn't have any humor.

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 22:01 (045756)

Be careful Dr. Z someone might try to sell you that patent for spark
gap technology.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Kim B. on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045757)

Read it again, Steve.

'Dear Pauline, In Europe, especially in Germany, we do not know about a shock wave machine called Ossanol. We have been testing machines from well-known manufacturers like Storz, Siemens, Dornier, Direx, and Wolf. Encouraging results for the treatment of plantar heel pain was reported for all of their machines.

Yours sincerely,
Jan D. Rompe M.D.'

See where she list Five manufacturers? and then she say's there are encouraging results for all of 'THEIR' machines? 'THEIR machines' Steve, she is OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO THE ONES THAT SHE JUST LISTED. GEEEEZE.

'We have been testing machines from well-known manufacturers like Storz, Siemens, Dornier, Direx, and Wolf. Encouraging
results for the treatment of plantar heel pain was reported for all of their machines.'

Just as importantly, Dr. Zuckerman didn't even aplogize for yet the 100th time that he has misrepresented the truth in one way or another. Did you read the part where she has not knowledge of a 'shock wave machine called Ossanol.'? Just the other day, he told us that is what it is called over there. If this were an isolate mistake, you wouldn't hear aword out of me, but these misrepresentations go on all the time.

Those here, who claim to be professional representatives of ESWT, are held to a higher standard. But, go ahead, sweep this small example under the rug too. Stick your head in the sand. I couldn't care any less about how you interpet it Steve, I've given up on trying to help some of the die hard Dr. Wizard Worhipers here protect their feet. But I haven't given up on the fact that the newbies will continue to be led astray if someone isn't willing to stand up for the facts. Don't bother reading any of my posts anymore, unless it has your name on it, it's not for you. BTW, I hope you get that reading comprehension problem worked out.

Kim B.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 22:30 (045758)

Here is my deal for you.

Hi I'm Doctor Smiley. Need Lasik surgery seeeee me. I'll give you the best deal in town. Trust your eyes to me. There's just one little thing.

You've got to forget that the machine I use does not have FDA
approval to do Lasik Surgery and it has never had any studies for safey or effectiveness. I suppose I should also mention it's currently on the FDA Automatic Detention, so it can't be marketed, but you can be sure inspite of the fact it never came with a manual, I've been learning on my own.

When do you want your appointment?

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

DeniseA on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045761)

What are you doing? I just don't understand this whole line of conversation. Each time someone says something you take a line out of it and spin it to 'prove' something that wasn't what was said in the first place.

You have every right to choose whatever Dr. or equipment you feel comfortable with, as do others. This particular post was very unfair and makes you look like you have some kind of personal issue with this. If there is what is it? It isn't right to be stating provocative accusations as reality. If you are more comfortable with the classification of the Ossatron go for it. That's your right as a medical consumer.

You keep saying your motive is to protect others, but from what? Who has been harmed? Who hasn't been given the best care and help with their problem?

Can the discussion happen without reaching to try to 'catch' something that isn't there? I think open conversation about the various options and practioners is healthy. This isn't, this just makes everyone tired. I'm going to sleep now.

By the way, I thought the pigs doing surgery post was really funny. I'm sure you smiled a little?

Denise

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:06 (045764)

Hi Denise,

Having a very nice sleep and sweet dreams . Good nite

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

DR. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:08 (045765)

I would love to have the patent then everyone will stop with this entire conversation because i would demand that they tell the world the machine is the same regardless of the name on the box

Re: I am getting really tired of this

wendyn on 4/25/01 at 23:08 (045766)

As per Scott's post on the other board:

** It's always OK to be honest and factual in a post that is critical, but it's not OK to simply attack, anger, or otherwise encourage useless, off-topic posts. In all posts, the emphasis should be on facts, foot pain, and helping others.'

You ALL can have any opinion you want. It DOES NOT need to become personal. It is okay to disagree...BUT

FOR THE BENEFIT OF EVERYONE HERE PLEASE LEARN HOW TO DISAGREE WITHOUT ATTACKING THE PERSON YOU DON'T AGREE WITH.

The bunch of you are welcome to disagree and argue about this until the middle of the next century for all I care....I have zero interest in Orbasone or Ossatron or any of them for that matter. But I have about had it with the way this consistently deteriorates into petty insults.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:09 (045767)

You have crossed the line Pauline.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

pf suffer on 4/25/01 at 23:10 (045768)

I dont understand your constant need to pick apart and debate one machine over another. Since you seem to spend lots of time on this, do you think that the FDA is a fair and equitable organization as far as granting approval for things? money, politics, etc play a big part. Some aspects of the FDA I would liken to organized crime.

If the technology is basically similar, what is the big problem? Are you an electrical engineer? have you ever used one? ever had one used on you? You may find Dr Z marketing not to your liking, but there are ways to display and or verbalize without your sarcastic and condescending tone.

What are you getting out of it? Is it to help others or to fulfill some need you have to make yourself feel better? If I had a case of it that bad I would want to get it handled not spend hours bickeriong about what machine a Dr uses. You seem to have a problem with Podiatrists, fine A, Dont go to one B, Go back to school and become an MD or DO foot surgeon.

Your debate seems to have taken on a personal tone, which is one of the fastest ways to discredit your views. Perhaps some of your past medical issues have made you a bitter person towards the medical field. With all your research do you plan to actually ever get ESWT ? perhaps you are building your own? Maybe you should explain in detail the principle difference in each machine

Sorry if this sounds snippy but I just think it is rather tiresome. Yes I can ignore the posts etc. I just think you should throttle the snotty tone

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 00:16 (045773)

Pauline, at this point it is difficult to tell about your sense of humor - but I certainly hope you have one given that your comment(s) tonight to Dr. Z about his purchase of the Orby could be misconstrued as insults.

I'm asking you now to give it up. Your research has been exemplary, your energy enviable, but it's time to stop. The horse is dead.
Some grow weary of your apparent need to back Dr. Z in to a corner - it does no one any good at all so please stop - you've made your point many times. There is really no reason to target Dr. Z - I'll bet that, with your talents, you could pick any single owner/operator of any ESWT machine and uncover data that could seem to be detrimental to their practices given that the whole ESWT arena is not uniform.
Perhaps, as a group, it's time for us, instead, to target makers of ESWT machines and the FDA and put our energys in to getting all of the machines approved, with relatively uniform standards, and covered by insurance.
I truly hope I don't offend you here, Pauline. But we really do need to move on, or back, to an environment that is supportive, not negative. There are too many folks, regular and newbies, saying 'I don't want to be here.....'.
How about if we ask Scott to make sure that your authenticated communications with ESWT pros and the FDA are posted, alongside all other ESWT information, on the ESWT page? We can then go back to doing our own decision-making and we can refer newbies to that page for their own edification. We just can't have these long arguments every time someone asks about ESWT. Let's put all the info out there and let the individual make up his or her own mind.
Last, as soon as the FDA tells me that the Orby is dangerous to my health, I'll be right alongside you. But as long as they choose not to pull the plug on it, then I choose to believe that they know what they're doing in having allowed it in the US to begin with and continue to allow it to be used here. While they may be arguing semantics and missing forms, they are not in litigation and they have not recalled the Orby. Nor is there any indication that the five or six Orbys in the US have, in fact, created problems in the patients they've been treated with. And - I choose Dr. Z. He has proven himself to be a kind, caring and generous man to sufferers here, and to be a consummate professional to those here who have been treated by him. He IS a professional, Pauline. And because none of us is, we really don't have a right to constantly question his motives. He was researching and studying ESWT long before PF became our household name. He has earned our respect many times over. Please stop now.

Re: Read it again, Steve

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 00:50 (045774)

This 'die-hard Dr. Wizard Wor(s)hiper' so appreciates your efforts, Kim, to protect her feet.
Kim, stating your point of view is a great thing, but using insulting phrases like 'I hope you get that reading comprehension problem worked out' or 'stick your head in the sand' really are detrimental to the whole. You instruct Steve to discontinue reading your posts if they're 'not for him....' but Kim, everybody reads all posts because that's what this board is for! We need your information, and Steve's, and Dr. Z's and Dr. Reid's. But honestly, insults and arguments have swamped us to the point that too many folks are choosing to not visit again.
You clearly have a strong, thorough ability to think and to write. Will you do those things without adding insult? We are ALL held to a higher standard here because we are PF brethren and we need one another even if our treatment choices are not the same. I do not ask you to blindly become a die-hard Dr. Wizard Worshiper, I ask you to share your point of view and knowledge, with no insults, and move on to the next topic.

Re: Judy, Fly away!!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 01:06 (045776)

Look at you. Every time I post you attack me! Don't open my post if you don't like the poster. Shew! You are so rude. You can't keep your nose our of my business can you? Shew Fly! Steve can speak up for himself! But I see your amnesia is gone and you have remembered what you name is. :-)

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 01:42 (045777)

Yes Denise, People are being hurt. In several different ways.

You seem like you'd really like to better understand what this is all about. Let me just put my cards out on the table.

Yes, People ARE being hurt. HOWEVER, THEY ARE NOT WELCOME TO DISCUSS IT HERE. You won't find them here! They aren't part of the 'in-crowd' here!

Off the top of my head, I recall at least three different people who have posted here that they have been hurt by Orbasone/Dr.Zuckerman. That is what got me so interested in investigating the facts. These incidents were swept under the rug. Status Quo here lately. It wasn't always this way though.

Some of you guys talk so much about 'it's just a machine.' Well, you have backed me into a corner; I have to tell you the truth of the matter. The real reason I had been posting about the machine's faults is so that I can in my own small way; warn newbies to do their homework BEFORE taking Dr.Z. up on his Lotto Treatments or his 'Blue Light Specials'. Honestly, I've tried to blame my concerns on the 'machine' as much as possible! Mostly in an effort to be kind and to keep from hurting Dr.Z's feelings. (Really)It's just that my post have been contorted and taken out of context so often, it's hard to tell. I have gone out of my way to avoid accusing Dr. Z. of being the real problem with the Orbasone. NOw, He may be, he may not be, this is just my opinion, based on what I've read and gathered.

You see the 'machine' is simply a DIVERSION. It was a way of critizing the procedure, without posting about the person who is using the machine. Follow? Now, since some of the others won't leave me be, and let me educate the newbies on the options that they have. I'll just have to get my point across in bits and piedes. Many of my concerns are actually with the way Dr. Z. runs his practice. Of course in regards to ESWT, the Orbasone machine still has some MAJOR drawbacks.

In all fairness, you'd have to admit that the lashing out and the personal attacks have been going strong in both directions. If those folks are not going to take responsibility for their actions, they shouldn't expect it out of me. There is a hand full of Dr. Wizard Loyalist here that want to get rid of those who have a contrary opinion. What's strange is it's as if these people care for Dr. Z so much that they actually want to help Dr. Z recruit patients from this site to go to New Jersey. What better way to show how much they appreciate all the gifts that he has bestowed upon this group? Which in itself is a huge conflict of interest. In my opinion, this is a most unprofessional way to go about getting patients in the front door. Don't any of the people in New Jersey have bad feet?

I feel that Dr. Z has bought and paid for this turf with his time, his fancy vibrator machine and his free consultations. Dr. Z offered me a free treatment at one time. No way, the risks are too high at this point in the ball game. I believe he once posted that he didn't have a manual to go with his machine. Doesn't that bother any one else? It's a big WARNING FLAG to me.

Also, out of compassion for Dr. Z. So far, I have held back on showing some of you a particular posting that Dr.Z's made at podiatry online that contradicts some of what is represented here about him. (Not always about himself, by others as well.) I have nothing against making money, unless you mislead, or fail to properly inform a select group of suffering PF patients along the way. Then it states to chap my hide a bit. So, even if you don't care about your own feet, look out for fellow PF sufferers!

This used to be an open and honest forum that allowed all views of what is taking place to be posted. This is NOT a popularity contest! This is about everyone's most important mode of transportation. Their Feet! Have any of you ever heard of a heel-pad transplant? No! That's because it can't be done! Take care of the only heel pads you will ever have. Educate yourself!!

Sincerely, Kim B.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 07:28 (045785)

What you see is what you get. I am who I am .

Yes there are people who have had pain before, during and after the procedure. I think that is what you mean by hurt.

The Wizard club was founded by Cynthia D who paid $3000 dollars for the procedure. Most of the club had paid for the procedure.

The podiatry online posting I believe was either already placed on this board or Pauline e-mailed it to me at one point. I stand by the message that podiatrist need to take over ESWT market. The message must of worked because there are more podiatrist doing ESWT in the USA then orthopedi docs

The entire message that I try to give is early treatment is important and that ESWT should be tried before foot surgery. What is wrong with this message.

The manuel thing is that I first had written notes and a video about the orbasone machine. Having the designer of the machine in my office off and on for the past year has been must more important then the written manual that I received back in March of 2000. I still don't have a manuel for my x-ray machine, my fluroscope, laser, and most of the equipment. Who uses manuel for operating an ESWT machine. For maintance and repair yes but for actual use you need hands on demonstratoion, but you know this already

My only problem is I started out on this board with the goal of being one of the ESWT leaders and when you leader there is alwasy going to be people that will try to pull or down you down. Happens everywhere . I should be surprised it is happening here.

Re: The bottom line...........

Kate on 4/26/01 at 08:23 (045791)

Hi gang,
I really have to put my two cents in.
First of all, while researching these machines is necessary and important, and a valuable tool to the patient deciding how to treat their feet, the bottom line must and will remain the same....
The TECHNOLOGY works for a lot of people suffering from heel spurs, achilles tendonitis, etc. It's the TECHNOLOGY and the experience of the physician delivering the technology that makes the difference.
As for these personal attacks on 'Dr.Wizard' if you don't like what the Wizard has to say, DON'T LISTEN! If you don't like the orby or the ossatron, or any of the European machines, then don't get the treatment. But for Gods sake, don't make a federal production out of it either!
To agreee to disagree is a great thing, but to keep pushing the envelope further and further becomes annoying at the very least.
Mr. Wizard, please keep up the good work, and let your critics sweat it out with heel pain!

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

pf suffer on 4/26/01 at 09:07 (045795)

After thinking about my remarks, I've decided I was wrong all along. Thank you Pauline and Kim for bringing these problems out in the open. I'm sorry I told you to go back to school, or to become an MD or DO foot surgeon. I hope everyone will forgive me.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

DeniseA on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045796)

>>Yes, People ARE being hurt. HOWEVER, THEY ARE NOT WELCOME TO DISCUSS IT HERE. You won't find them here! They aren't part of the 'in-crowd' here!

They do discuss it and receive quite a bit of follow up support. One thread discusses increased pain before improvement and it was an excellent thread for people who are considering the treatment. That is one of the best parts of this board. Not everyone skips out of the office feeling good right after treatment. At treatment time it is explained you may have bruising etc. When you hurt it is also hard to get really excited about hanging in there to get better. I've seen the posts continue to report from day one up through a 2nd or 3rd treatment. That is excellent!

>>Many of my concerns are actually with the way Dr. Z. runs his practice.

Your honesty here is commendable. Dr. Z is excited about ESWT. He's a Dr but he also loves this stuff! Yeah he gets enthusiastic, that's his personality. His Dr. style isn't thesis and lecture. He's out there with the people being silly and trying to get people excited about this new technology. He tirelessly works on inviting other Dr.'s in our area to be able to learn about the technology so they can use it to heal their patients. He believes in it, he's excited, it's his style! If you don't like this style, if you like a more sedate physician that's fine. No one would fault you for picking a Dr. with a bed side manner that you find most appealing. Personally, I have been around so many Dr's with God complexes that I find a Wizard complex refreshing. :)

I do hear what you said about insults going both directions so I went back to read. In fairness, a lot of people said things that may have been insulting just because they were joking to try to lighten things up. It really gets discouraging when everything is nasty. Some things that were dealt with as insults were just jokes. Laughing is healthy no matter what the FDA has to say about it.

Re: FOUL! -- Re: Judy, Fly away!!

Observer on 4/26/01 at 10:51 (045807)

Foul

Re: The above post is forged......

the real pf sufferer on 4/26/01 at 12:05 (045826)

This is a new low. I did not post this, it was done and had my handle put at the heading. A person that would do this( I can guess) has showed a true lack of class. I have never and would never post something like an apology, them post somebody elses handle. The person that did this needs to get out of the house, get a life.

AGAIN I DID NOT POST THIS, IT IS A BLATANT ATTEMPT FOR A CREDITLESS PERSON TO GAIN CREDIBILITY....YOU FAILED MISERABLY

Re: The above post is forged......

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 12:25 (045828)

You're right, Sufferer, this is a new low and a shocking one. I hope Scott will see your post and try to track down the impersonator. Meanwhile, I hope you won't be put off - you've always made a good contribution here.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 12:43 (045830)

Kim - get yourself a grip. You are accusing Steve of not being able to read, Dr. Z's patients of being mindless drones, and you claim to be 'protecting our feet.' Your posts are endless and unhelpful, and you are writing about a treatment you have never had and a doctor you have never met. You delude yourself that you have our best interests in mind. Why you think that that Orbasone is some sort of X-Files scam is a bizzare psychological manifestation that you need to get to the bottom of.

There are constructive ways to find the information you seek, and ones that are boring and simply offensive. You may think that everyone else but you here is an idiot for trusting Dr. Z, but you are outnumbered, honey.

Unless you prove that there is now or was never a machine/treatment called the Ossanol (like that is a big deal, I could care less) than your current little slam is meaningless. But honey, do it on your own time. Your mean spirt when you talk about ESWT/Dr. Z was one of ther prime reasons I left the board. But why should I let you keep me from the support and information I need?

Kim, if you feel so persecuted on the board, please leave (again). And get some help in being able to express yourself in a way that is not noxious. There have been many times when I thought of writing or calling you to get together for some support or fellowship, but I always hesitate, because you have this mean, sarcastic edge that made me uncomfortable, and this martyr-complex that seems to make you immune to any criticism or question that is directed toward yourself. People like that can't have real conversations. They have constant fights. That is what your attitude here has begotten - constant fights.

So far your have managed to be mean to Judy, Nancy S, Steve, Dr. Z, and I guess I am next? Fondly, B.

Re: KIM

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:18 (045835)

You are so beautiful, heroic and brave for caring about our heel pads so much, when all of the doctors who do ESWT just hate us and want to hurt us! I for one trust you, Kim, and not the evidence from real medical doctors who actually use the machines, or other people who claim to have been 'cured.' I would rather go on opates, or get surgery or just sit on my ass forever in the comfort of my home. Fondly, B.

Re: To Judy S Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Pauline on 4/26/01 at 15:44 (045854)

Dear Judy,
I'm writing to Thank You for your response. I read them all and and I liked yours for several reasons. You displayed thought, calmness, understanding and a great sense of reason. I want you to know I not only read what you said, but I heard what you said and took it to heart.
I think you are correct and it is time for me to let it go.

I have hope that Scott will follow through on his idea to have more equality between the doctors so that they all share equally on the site and I think his idea to keep all products including professional services separate from postings is a very good one.

I sincerely apologize to all of you especially you Judy S and to Scott and Kim and Dr. Z and the rest to many to individually name.

Pauline

Re: location of post

Pauline on 4/26/01 at 16:03 (045857)

I don't know if anyone will see this post way down here. It's not that I
wanted to hide it or sneek it in, but rather I was so taken by Judy S's
sincerity that I wanted to respond directly to her posting. Judy I really appreciated what you took time to write. Thank You.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Nancy S. on 4/26/01 at 17:55 (045872)

Thank you, Barbara! I can hardly bear to read the board anymore. So much trash is allowed here now; it makes me really sad. Thank you for having the guts to confront head-on the few people who seem to have a burning desire to either look for or create unnecessary and incredibly rude trouble, under the guise of 'exposing' some and 'educating' the rest of us. I don't need it or want it, and I think the board has gone downhill in a big way because of it.
Nancy

Re: To Judy and Observer

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045874)

Observer, you are correct, I saw that Judy had posted to me, read the first line and got defensive. Later, when I read the entire post, I saw that she was intirely civil to me. (Flashbacks from previous encounter with her must have caused me to jump the gun.

Judy, this is my explaination for the 'Fly away' post. It's not much but it's the truth. I apologize for my unfair response to your sensible post.

Thank you, fair-minded 'Observer' for giving me a chance to explain myself.

Re: Nancy

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 18:37 (045880)

Nancy, I agree, and bear in mind that the mud has been slinging in BOTH directions. You might just as well have to agree that the board has gone downhill because the democracy it once possesed has been highly threatened for a while now.

There was a time people could post and joke and carry on. Back when we didn't have to measure every word we say for fear that someone will turn what may have been a light hearted jab into a overblown big deal.

As John reminds us, without the benefit of tone of voice, facial expression and body languange, some words take on a totally different meaning.

Re: Re:KIM

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 18:43 (045881)

No, I think we all know your meaning ,we don't need to see your face or body languange .....Your to funny ,again you start all of this and then poor you....You can have an opinion ,but God forgive if anyone else does..I have a thought ,let's call the board 'Ask Kim '' since you think you know everything ,and everyone is stupid to you..PLEASE!!!!!!
Laurie R

Re: Foul! TX-Barbara

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 18:52 (045883)

Barbara, This is a sarcastic, mean spirited slam. But it does demonstrate how low you will go.

Again, the opiates I recently began taking are for my Fibromyalgia illness, which is really none of your business. The fact that it had any affedt at all was an unexpected, but welcome, side affect. I shared that imformation with this board to help others who may have been at the end of their rope, not to have it thrown up to me as if I am a junkie of some sort. This is a low blow on your part. Grow up. You're a joke. And don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Re: Re:Foul! Laurie R.!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 19:38 (045893)

You've got a lot of 'know it all' in you too! Not to mention rudeness. You don't have to agree with my posts, but you do have to allow me to post what I think is right without slamming me everytime I do. You really need to get off my back. I have friends here and there are people that appreciate my contributions. They just don't choose to get involved in the childisness aspects of it. I don't judge my friend by whether or not they participate in this ridiculous word war. I will continue to defend myself if you insist on degrading my character. Everybody is intitled to there opinion, but I bet Scott would appreciate it if you would quit wasting his bandwith with your continuous insults.

Re: Re:Foul! FOUL,FOUL ,KIM!!!!!!!!!

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 20:37 (045901)

Here we go again,poor Kim ,for your info this is only the second time I have ever said anyhting to you. You scare people that is why no one wants to say anything to you.Get your facts right!!!!! Your so right about one thing ,this is ridiculous ,so stop!!!

Re: FOUL - Laurie

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 20:42 (045904)

Laurie, I know you probably responded to Kim before seeing my last posts, but I wanted to proactice and test the whistle, so I'm 'picking' on you as an example. This isn't a real FOUL that counts.
====================
This post was deemed 'FOUL' by the referee for the following X-marked reason(s). In most instances, no one should reply to this or the offending message. After 3 fouls, a block may be placed on the IP address of the poster to prevent posting for 60 days or more.

[X] The post was off-topic. The post was not about foot pain.
[] The post was not nice.**
[] The post was an offensive, suspicious, or repeating advertisement.
[] The poster attempted to be anonymous by not using their usual nickname.

** It's always OK to be honest and factual in a post that is critical, but it's not OK to merely attack, anger, or otherwise encourage useless, off-topic posts. In all posts, the emphasis should be on facts, foot pain, and helping others.
Arguments against declaring this and similar posts 'foul' should be sent to scott@heelspurs.com

Re: Foul! TX-Barbara

Barbara TX on 4/27/01 at 09:30 (045950)

Kim - I was speaking for myself, if you will re-read the post. It is because I don't want to go on strong medications sit in my house like a zombie, have potentially damaging surgery, etc. that I chose ESWT. If it works, I am free of all those things. Your paranoia about ESWT leads many away from a viable treatment option that will spare them years of being an invalid. If you don't want to try it, don't.

And what makes you think that I can't take it? I figure that you have been so rude to all the people that give me support that I would be a party to your words if I did not write. I won't just sit by and watch you call everyone stupid for choosing ESWT, or maligning helpful, generous people, or telling me to 'grow-up.' Once again you have shown the inability to be introspective about criticism. B.

Re: I am getting really tired of this

Kay S on 4/27/01 at 17:28 (046014)

Ditto, Wendyn.
Kay

Re: To Judy S Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

JudyS on 4/28/01 at 23:48 (046115)

Pauline,
Your graciousness at this time, like your other skills, is exemplary. :) JS

Re: "Encouraging results.........reported for all machines" What have I been saying ???!!!

Steve P on 4/25/01 at 10:37 (045665)

Well, Pauline, you help make the point I've been making all along. I've yet to see any evidence that the different ESWT machines produce significantly different results.

My conclusion has been reinforced time & time again (including today) by various articles & reports from docs using the different machines.

As I've pointed out before, Scott's ESWT patients database shows remarkably similar results for the Ossatron, Sonocur & Orbasone. Statistically, you can barely see the light of day between them.

So thanks for reinforcing my point. 'Encouraging results' are to be found everywhere, from Germany to New Jersey!

Oh, and one more thing.......ALL ESWT machines are 'learn as you go'. As you should know by now, this is not cookie-cutter medicine.

Re: Note from Dr. Jan-Dirk Rompe

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 12:31 (045676)

Ok you win. I never stated that there were thousand of studies for the orbasone machine. The orbasone has been in use in Europe and used by many physician. Some who I have spoken with and learned from. What do yo take me for. I just didn't take a machine and start from day one.

It isn't safe to say that there is no treatment protocol for the orbasone.
I was shown a treatment protocol by my instructor who came to my office over one year ago.
I am member of the ISWT, one of the first USA member. There was even a paper on the orbasone at the Berlin International conference.

Learn as you go is exactly how the ossatron and any machine outthere are taught. Do you really think that once you are shown the procedure that is it

If you have done any research on what makes the procedure more effective
you will find that it is the experience of the treating doctor. This isn't my opinion this is a quote from the ISWT.

Oh by the way. I have communicated with Dr. Rompe many times. Thanks I never knew that I was e-mailing a woman . Doesn' matter but thanks for the research.

Re: To Steve "Encouraging results.........reported for all machines" What have I been saying ???!!!

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 13:33 (045679)

Dr.Jan-Dirk Rompe was refering to the machines from the manufactures they have been testing. As a competent, well respected physician she is not likely to include or make reference to machines not included in their studies. Surely you would know this.

Re: Pauline --- I stand by my statement. Dr. Rompe confirms once again what others have stated repeatedly--- good results from MANY different ESWT machines. eom

Steve P on 4/25/01 at 15:40 (045701)

.

Re: Pauline --- I stand by my statement. Dr. Rompe confirms once again what others have stated repeatedly--- good results from MANY different ESWT machines. eom

Jill P on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045703)

Steve, I think you are right too. I think Pauline's statement communicates that there is really no difference between the machines. Also as you pointed out, the results on the page here recording ESWT progress would point to that as well.

I think possibly Pauline's problem is that she has not had personal experience with the Orbasone or any ESWT machine. She's more hung up on trying to find something wrong with the Orbasone than on trying to overcome PF pain. Perhaps she didn't seem my post to her on another thread, but I watched the video of the Ossatron on the video section here, and it was the same treatment I had with the Orbasone minus the need for the sterile gowns in a surgery center inflating the cost of the procedure. Oh, and minus the sedation thankfully as I much prefer to be alert and in control of what is happening to my body! :)

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 17:53 (045718)

Let say that two companies make two machines. They are both made from Spark gap technology. They both have the same size generator. They both can treat at the F2 area with the same amount of energy.

They both meet international testing for electric safey etc. Now one company has a few different bells and whistles. Another company enable the machine to be smaller. May be one has better transportation etc.

Another example would be computer. IBM and Gateway are about the same inside each have a CPU the brain. each have a keyboard. etc.

The only real difference is the customer service issue or mayb the sreen is includes. Well this is the ESWT machine market for heel pain in a very simple nut shell.

It you know what the power setting need to be for treatment to be effective and safe then you can built the machine yourself. Or you could be an experience company that know how to manufactor their machine alot cheaper. Japon and Germany seems to be the right combination for cost reduction.

Gateway was a very small company no body knew when IBM ran the show. But IBM had a patent ( I think) no one in the ESWT has the patent for spark gap technology. Can you believe this. ?

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

pf sufferer on 4/25/01 at 19:37 (045730)

SOUNDS LIKE SOMEBODY ON HERE EITHER HAS AN AXE TO GRIND OR HAS STOCK IN A CERTAIN COMPANY. FOLKS GET INTO PISSIES ABOUT LASIK EYE SP, I WOULD RATHER PUT MORE TRUST IN THE PRACTITIONER THAN THE MACHINE. NO DISRESPECT BUT WHAT IS THE REASON FOR SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ON TEARING DOWN A SPECIFIC MACHINE WHEN YOU PROBABLY WILL NEVER USE IT OR BE TREATED BY IT??

Re: I hate all of these ESWT machines.

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 19:50 (045733)

now this is the best answer I have read yet about any of these #%% machine.

Did I tell you I really hate all of these machine. They are too expense. Too much trouble to repair and wear out. When i got involved with ESWT that was my only concern they are machines and I can't control what they might need and they need alot of repair and maintance.

The parts are other just idea. I needed a filter for my orbasone and so I went order this filter that really looked like a small fish tank filte until the price was $550 well I track down the parts manufactor and got the stupid thing for $40 bucks. Yes same part for $40 bucks.

How would like to have to call patients and tell them we going to have to postpone your treatment the machine is being repaired. The machine the machine. I hate them

By the way I have become really good at maintance and some repair of the orbasone.

Re: I hate all of these ESWT machines.

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 21:50 (045755)

Dr. Z,
You acted to fast. You purchased on impulse. Should have checked it out.
What is that old saying ' Act in haste, Repent in leisure' Your's was probably made on a Monday to boot.

Don't worry as soon as the OssaTron gets insurance coverage you'll probably abandon your faithful companion 'Orbaso'. You thought I didn't have any humor.

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 22:01 (045756)

Be careful Dr. Z someone might try to sell you that patent for spark
gap technology.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Kim B. on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045757)

Read it again, Steve.

'Dear Pauline, In Europe, especially in Germany, we do not know about a shock wave machine called Ossanol. We have been testing machines from well-known manufacturers like Storz, Siemens, Dornier, Direx, and Wolf. Encouraging results for the treatment of plantar heel pain was reported for all of their machines.

Yours sincerely,
Jan D. Rompe M.D.'

See where she list Five manufacturers? and then she say's there are encouraging results for all of 'THEIR' machines? 'THEIR machines' Steve, she is OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO THE ONES THAT SHE JUST LISTED. GEEEEZE.

'We have been testing machines from well-known manufacturers like Storz, Siemens, Dornier, Direx, and Wolf. Encouraging
results for the treatment of plantar heel pain was reported for all of their machines.'

Just as importantly, Dr. Zuckerman didn't even aplogize for yet the 100th time that he has misrepresented the truth in one way or another. Did you read the part where she has not knowledge of a 'shock wave machine called Ossanol.'? Just the other day, he told us that is what it is called over there. If this were an isolate mistake, you wouldn't hear aword out of me, but these misrepresentations go on all the time.

Those here, who claim to be professional representatives of ESWT, are held to a higher standard. But, go ahead, sweep this small example under the rug too. Stick your head in the sand. I couldn't care any less about how you interpet it Steve, I've given up on trying to help some of the die hard Dr. Wizard Worhipers here protect their feet. But I haven't given up on the fact that the newbies will continue to be led astray if someone isn't willing to stand up for the facts. Don't bother reading any of my posts anymore, unless it has your name on it, it's not for you. BTW, I hope you get that reading comprehension problem worked out.

Kim B.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Pauline on 4/25/01 at 22:30 (045758)

Here is my deal for you.

Hi I'm Doctor Smiley. Need Lasik surgery seeeee me. I'll give you the best deal in town. Trust your eyes to me. There's just one little thing.

You've got to forget that the machine I use does not have FDA
approval to do Lasik Surgery and it has never had any studies for safey or effectiveness. I suppose I should also mention it's currently on the FDA Automatic Detention, so it can't be marketed, but you can be sure inspite of the fact it never came with a manual, I've been learning on my own.

When do you want your appointment?

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

DeniseA on 4/25/01 at hrmin (045761)

What are you doing? I just don't understand this whole line of conversation. Each time someone says something you take a line out of it and spin it to 'prove' something that wasn't what was said in the first place.

You have every right to choose whatever Dr. or equipment you feel comfortable with, as do others. This particular post was very unfair and makes you look like you have some kind of personal issue with this. If there is what is it? It isn't right to be stating provocative accusations as reality. If you are more comfortable with the classification of the Ossatron go for it. That's your right as a medical consumer.

You keep saying your motive is to protect others, but from what? Who has been harmed? Who hasn't been given the best care and help with their problem?

Can the discussion happen without reaching to try to 'catch' something that isn't there? I think open conversation about the various options and practioners is healthy. This isn't, this just makes everyone tired. I'm going to sleep now.

By the way, I thought the pigs doing surgery post was really funny. I'm sure you smiled a little?

Denise

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:06 (045764)

Hi Denise,

Having a very nice sleep and sweet dreams . Good nite

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

DR. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:08 (045765)

I would love to have the patent then everyone will stop with this entire conversation because i would demand that they tell the world the machine is the same regardless of the name on the box

Re: I am getting really tired of this

wendyn on 4/25/01 at 23:08 (045766)

As per Scott's post on the other board:

** It's always OK to be honest and factual in a post that is critical, but it's not OK to simply attack, anger, or otherwise encourage useless, off-topic posts. In all posts, the emphasis should be on facts, foot pain, and helping others.'

You ALL can have any opinion you want. It DOES NOT need to become personal. It is okay to disagree...BUT

FOR THE BENEFIT OF EVERYONE HERE PLEASE LEARN HOW TO DISAGREE WITHOUT ATTACKING THE PERSON YOU DON'T AGREE WITH.

The bunch of you are welcome to disagree and argue about this until the middle of the next century for all I care....I have zero interest in Orbasone or Ossatron or any of them for that matter. But I have about had it with the way this consistently deteriorates into petty insults.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/25/01 at 23:09 (045767)

You have crossed the line Pauline.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

pf suffer on 4/25/01 at 23:10 (045768)

I dont understand your constant need to pick apart and debate one machine over another. Since you seem to spend lots of time on this, do you think that the FDA is a fair and equitable organization as far as granting approval for things? money, politics, etc play a big part. Some aspects of the FDA I would liken to organized crime.

If the technology is basically similar, what is the big problem? Are you an electrical engineer? have you ever used one? ever had one used on you? You may find Dr Z marketing not to your liking, but there are ways to display and or verbalize without your sarcastic and condescending tone.

What are you getting out of it? Is it to help others or to fulfill some need you have to make yourself feel better? If I had a case of it that bad I would want to get it handled not spend hours bickeriong about what machine a Dr uses. You seem to have a problem with Podiatrists, fine A, Dont go to one B, Go back to school and become an MD or DO foot surgeon.

Your debate seems to have taken on a personal tone, which is one of the fastest ways to discredit your views. Perhaps some of your past medical issues have made you a bitter person towards the medical field. With all your research do you plan to actually ever get ESWT ? perhaps you are building your own? Maybe you should explain in detail the principle difference in each machine

Sorry if this sounds snippy but I just think it is rather tiresome. Yes I can ignore the posts etc. I just think you should throttle the snotty tone

Re: Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 00:16 (045773)

Pauline, at this point it is difficult to tell about your sense of humor - but I certainly hope you have one given that your comment(s) tonight to Dr. Z about his purchase of the Orby could be misconstrued as insults.

I'm asking you now to give it up. Your research has been exemplary, your energy enviable, but it's time to stop. The horse is dead.
Some grow weary of your apparent need to back Dr. Z in to a corner - it does no one any good at all so please stop - you've made your point many times. There is really no reason to target Dr. Z - I'll bet that, with your talents, you could pick any single owner/operator of any ESWT machine and uncover data that could seem to be detrimental to their practices given that the whole ESWT arena is not uniform.
Perhaps, as a group, it's time for us, instead, to target makers of ESWT machines and the FDA and put our energys in to getting all of the machines approved, with relatively uniform standards, and covered by insurance.
I truly hope I don't offend you here, Pauline. But we really do need to move on, or back, to an environment that is supportive, not negative. There are too many folks, regular and newbies, saying 'I don't want to be here.....'.
How about if we ask Scott to make sure that your authenticated communications with ESWT pros and the FDA are posted, alongside all other ESWT information, on the ESWT page? We can then go back to doing our own decision-making and we can refer newbies to that page for their own edification. We just can't have these long arguments every time someone asks about ESWT. Let's put all the info out there and let the individual make up his or her own mind.
Last, as soon as the FDA tells me that the Orby is dangerous to my health, I'll be right alongside you. But as long as they choose not to pull the plug on it, then I choose to believe that they know what they're doing in having allowed it in the US to begin with and continue to allow it to be used here. While they may be arguing semantics and missing forms, they are not in litigation and they have not recalled the Orby. Nor is there any indication that the five or six Orbys in the US have, in fact, created problems in the patients they've been treated with. And - I choose Dr. Z. He has proven himself to be a kind, caring and generous man to sufferers here, and to be a consummate professional to those here who have been treated by him. He IS a professional, Pauline. And because none of us is, we really don't have a right to constantly question his motives. He was researching and studying ESWT long before PF became our household name. He has earned our respect many times over. Please stop now.

Re: Read it again, Steve

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 00:50 (045774)

This 'die-hard Dr. Wizard Wor(s)hiper' so appreciates your efforts, Kim, to protect her feet.
Kim, stating your point of view is a great thing, but using insulting phrases like 'I hope you get that reading comprehension problem worked out' or 'stick your head in the sand' really are detrimental to the whole. You instruct Steve to discontinue reading your posts if they're 'not for him....' but Kim, everybody reads all posts because that's what this board is for! We need your information, and Steve's, and Dr. Z's and Dr. Reid's. But honestly, insults and arguments have swamped us to the point that too many folks are choosing to not visit again.
You clearly have a strong, thorough ability to think and to write. Will you do those things without adding insult? We are ALL held to a higher standard here because we are PF brethren and we need one another even if our treatment choices are not the same. I do not ask you to blindly become a die-hard Dr. Wizard Worshiper, I ask you to share your point of view and knowledge, with no insults, and move on to the next topic.

Re: Judy, Fly away!!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 01:06 (045776)

Look at you. Every time I post you attack me! Don't open my post if you don't like the poster. Shew! You are so rude. You can't keep your nose our of my business can you? Shew Fly! Steve can speak up for himself! But I see your amnesia is gone and you have remembered what you name is. :-)

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 01:42 (045777)

Yes Denise, People are being hurt. In several different ways.

You seem like you'd really like to better understand what this is all about. Let me just put my cards out on the table.

Yes, People ARE being hurt. HOWEVER, THEY ARE NOT WELCOME TO DISCUSS IT HERE. You won't find them here! They aren't part of the 'in-crowd' here!

Off the top of my head, I recall at least three different people who have posted here that they have been hurt by Orbasone/Dr.Zuckerman. That is what got me so interested in investigating the facts. These incidents were swept under the rug. Status Quo here lately. It wasn't always this way though.

Some of you guys talk so much about 'it's just a machine.' Well, you have backed me into a corner; I have to tell you the truth of the matter. The real reason I had been posting about the machine's faults is so that I can in my own small way; warn newbies to do their homework BEFORE taking Dr.Z. up on his Lotto Treatments or his 'Blue Light Specials'. Honestly, I've tried to blame my concerns on the 'machine' as much as possible! Mostly in an effort to be kind and to keep from hurting Dr.Z's feelings. (Really)It's just that my post have been contorted and taken out of context so often, it's hard to tell. I have gone out of my way to avoid accusing Dr. Z. of being the real problem with the Orbasone. NOw, He may be, he may not be, this is just my opinion, based on what I've read and gathered.

You see the 'machine' is simply a DIVERSION. It was a way of critizing the procedure, without posting about the person who is using the machine. Follow? Now, since some of the others won't leave me be, and let me educate the newbies on the options that they have. I'll just have to get my point across in bits and piedes. Many of my concerns are actually with the way Dr. Z. runs his practice. Of course in regards to ESWT, the Orbasone machine still has some MAJOR drawbacks.

In all fairness, you'd have to admit that the lashing out and the personal attacks have been going strong in both directions. If those folks are not going to take responsibility for their actions, they shouldn't expect it out of me. There is a hand full of Dr. Wizard Loyalist here that want to get rid of those who have a contrary opinion. What's strange is it's as if these people care for Dr. Z so much that they actually want to help Dr. Z recruit patients from this site to go to New Jersey. What better way to show how much they appreciate all the gifts that he has bestowed upon this group? Which in itself is a huge conflict of interest. In my opinion, this is a most unprofessional way to go about getting patients in the front door. Don't any of the people in New Jersey have bad feet?

I feel that Dr. Z has bought and paid for this turf with his time, his fancy vibrator machine and his free consultations. Dr. Z offered me a free treatment at one time. No way, the risks are too high at this point in the ball game. I believe he once posted that he didn't have a manual to go with his machine. Doesn't that bother any one else? It's a big WARNING FLAG to me.

Also, out of compassion for Dr. Z. So far, I have held back on showing some of you a particular posting that Dr.Z's made at podiatry online that contradicts some of what is represented here about him. (Not always about himself, by others as well.) I have nothing against making money, unless you mislead, or fail to properly inform a select group of suffering PF patients along the way. Then it states to chap my hide a bit. So, even if you don't care about your own feet, look out for fellow PF sufferers!

This used to be an open and honest forum that allowed all views of what is taking place to be posted. This is NOT a popularity contest! This is about everyone's most important mode of transportation. Their Feet! Have any of you ever heard of a heel-pad transplant? No! That's because it can't be done! Take care of the only heel pads you will ever have. Educate yourself!!

Sincerely, Kim B.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 07:28 (045785)

What you see is what you get. I am who I am .

Yes there are people who have had pain before, during and after the procedure. I think that is what you mean by hurt.

The Wizard club was founded by Cynthia D who paid $3000 dollars for the procedure. Most of the club had paid for the procedure.

The podiatry online posting I believe was either already placed on this board or Pauline e-mailed it to me at one point. I stand by the message that podiatrist need to take over ESWT market. The message must of worked because there are more podiatrist doing ESWT in the USA then orthopedi docs

The entire message that I try to give is early treatment is important and that ESWT should be tried before foot surgery. What is wrong with this message.

The manuel thing is that I first had written notes and a video about the orbasone machine. Having the designer of the machine in my office off and on for the past year has been must more important then the written manual that I received back in March of 2000. I still don't have a manuel for my x-ray machine, my fluroscope, laser, and most of the equipment. Who uses manuel for operating an ESWT machine. For maintance and repair yes but for actual use you need hands on demonstratoion, but you know this already

My only problem is I started out on this board with the goal of being one of the ESWT leaders and when you leader there is alwasy going to be people that will try to pull or down you down. Happens everywhere . I should be surprised it is happening here.

Re: The bottom line...........

Kate on 4/26/01 at 08:23 (045791)

Hi gang,
I really have to put my two cents in.
First of all, while researching these machines is necessary and important, and a valuable tool to the patient deciding how to treat their feet, the bottom line must and will remain the same....
The TECHNOLOGY works for a lot of people suffering from heel spurs, achilles tendonitis, etc. It's the TECHNOLOGY and the experience of the physician delivering the technology that makes the difference.
As for these personal attacks on 'Dr.Wizard' if you don't like what the Wizard has to say, DON'T LISTEN! If you don't like the orby or the ossatron, or any of the European machines, then don't get the treatment. But for Gods sake, don't make a federal production out of it either!
To agreee to disagree is a great thing, but to keep pushing the envelope further and further becomes annoying at the very least.
Mr. Wizard, please keep up the good work, and let your critics sweat it out with heel pain!

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

pf suffer on 4/26/01 at 09:07 (045795)

After thinking about my remarks, I've decided I was wrong all along. Thank you Pauline and Kim for bringing these problems out in the open. I'm sorry I told you to go back to school, or to become an MD or DO foot surgeon. I hope everyone will forgive me.

Re: To PF Suffer "Your my kind of patient"

DeniseA on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045796)

>>Yes, People ARE being hurt. HOWEVER, THEY ARE NOT WELCOME TO DISCUSS IT HERE. You won't find them here! They aren't part of the 'in-crowd' here!

They do discuss it and receive quite a bit of follow up support. One thread discusses increased pain before improvement and it was an excellent thread for people who are considering the treatment. That is one of the best parts of this board. Not everyone skips out of the office feeling good right after treatment. At treatment time it is explained you may have bruising etc. When you hurt it is also hard to get really excited about hanging in there to get better. I've seen the posts continue to report from day one up through a 2nd or 3rd treatment. That is excellent!

>>Many of my concerns are actually with the way Dr. Z. runs his practice.

Your honesty here is commendable. Dr. Z is excited about ESWT. He's a Dr but he also loves this stuff! Yeah he gets enthusiastic, that's his personality. His Dr. style isn't thesis and lecture. He's out there with the people being silly and trying to get people excited about this new technology. He tirelessly works on inviting other Dr.'s in our area to be able to learn about the technology so they can use it to heal their patients. He believes in it, he's excited, it's his style! If you don't like this style, if you like a more sedate physician that's fine. No one would fault you for picking a Dr. with a bed side manner that you find most appealing. Personally, I have been around so many Dr's with God complexes that I find a Wizard complex refreshing. :)

I do hear what you said about insults going both directions so I went back to read. In fairness, a lot of people said things that may have been insulting just because they were joking to try to lighten things up. It really gets discouraging when everything is nasty. Some things that were dealt with as insults were just jokes. Laughing is healthy no matter what the FDA has to say about it.

Re: FOUL! -- Re: Judy, Fly away!!

Observer on 4/26/01 at 10:51 (045807)

Foul

Re: The above post is forged......

the real pf sufferer on 4/26/01 at 12:05 (045826)

This is a new low. I did not post this, it was done and had my handle put at the heading. A person that would do this( I can guess) has showed a true lack of class. I have never and would never post something like an apology, them post somebody elses handle. The person that did this needs to get out of the house, get a life.

AGAIN I DID NOT POST THIS, IT IS A BLATANT ATTEMPT FOR A CREDITLESS PERSON TO GAIN CREDIBILITY....YOU FAILED MISERABLY

Re: The above post is forged......

JudyS on 4/26/01 at 12:25 (045828)

You're right, Sufferer, this is a new low and a shocking one. I hope Scott will see your post and try to track down the impersonator. Meanwhile, I hope you won't be put off - you've always made a good contribution here.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 12:43 (045830)

Kim - get yourself a grip. You are accusing Steve of not being able to read, Dr. Z's patients of being mindless drones, and you claim to be 'protecting our feet.' Your posts are endless and unhelpful, and you are writing about a treatment you have never had and a doctor you have never met. You delude yourself that you have our best interests in mind. Why you think that that Orbasone is some sort of X-Files scam is a bizzare psychological manifestation that you need to get to the bottom of.

There are constructive ways to find the information you seek, and ones that are boring and simply offensive. You may think that everyone else but you here is an idiot for trusting Dr. Z, but you are outnumbered, honey.

Unless you prove that there is now or was never a machine/treatment called the Ossanol (like that is a big deal, I could care less) than your current little slam is meaningless. But honey, do it on your own time. Your mean spirt when you talk about ESWT/Dr. Z was one of ther prime reasons I left the board. But why should I let you keep me from the support and information I need?

Kim, if you feel so persecuted on the board, please leave (again). And get some help in being able to express yourself in a way that is not noxious. There have been many times when I thought of writing or calling you to get together for some support or fellowship, but I always hesitate, because you have this mean, sarcastic edge that made me uncomfortable, and this martyr-complex that seems to make you immune to any criticism or question that is directed toward yourself. People like that can't have real conversations. They have constant fights. That is what your attitude here has begotten - constant fights.

So far your have managed to be mean to Judy, Nancy S, Steve, Dr. Z, and I guess I am next? Fondly, B.

Re: KIM

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:18 (045835)

You are so beautiful, heroic and brave for caring about our heel pads so much, when all of the doctors who do ESWT just hate us and want to hurt us! I for one trust you, Kim, and not the evidence from real medical doctors who actually use the machines, or other people who claim to have been 'cured.' I would rather go on opates, or get surgery or just sit on my ass forever in the comfort of my home. Fondly, B.

Re: To Judy S Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

Pauline on 4/26/01 at 15:44 (045854)

Dear Judy,
I'm writing to Thank You for your response. I read them all and and I liked yours for several reasons. You displayed thought, calmness, understanding and a great sense of reason. I want you to know I not only read what you said, but I heard what you said and took it to heart.
I think you are correct and it is time for me to let it go.

I have hope that Scott will follow through on his idea to have more equality between the doctors so that they all share equally on the site and I think his idea to keep all products including professional services separate from postings is a very good one.

I sincerely apologize to all of you especially you Judy S and to Scott and Kim and Dr. Z and the rest to many to individually name.

Pauline

Re: location of post

Pauline on 4/26/01 at 16:03 (045857)

I don't know if anyone will see this post way down here. It's not that I
wanted to hide it or sneek it in, but rather I was so taken by Judy S's
sincerity that I wanted to respond directly to her posting. Judy I really appreciated what you took time to write. Thank You.

Re: Read it again, Steve

Nancy S. on 4/26/01 at 17:55 (045872)

Thank you, Barbara! I can hardly bear to read the board anymore. So much trash is allowed here now; it makes me really sad. Thank you for having the guts to confront head-on the few people who seem to have a burning desire to either look for or create unnecessary and incredibly rude trouble, under the guise of 'exposing' some and 'educating' the rest of us. I don't need it or want it, and I think the board has gone downhill in a big way because of it.
Nancy

Re: To Judy and Observer

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045874)

Observer, you are correct, I saw that Judy had posted to me, read the first line and got defensive. Later, when I read the entire post, I saw that she was intirely civil to me. (Flashbacks from previous encounter with her must have caused me to jump the gun.

Judy, this is my explaination for the 'Fly away' post. It's not much but it's the truth. I apologize for my unfair response to your sensible post.

Thank you, fair-minded 'Observer' for giving me a chance to explain myself.

Re: Nancy

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 18:37 (045880)

Nancy, I agree, and bear in mind that the mud has been slinging in BOTH directions. You might just as well have to agree that the board has gone downhill because the democracy it once possesed has been highly threatened for a while now.

There was a time people could post and joke and carry on. Back when we didn't have to measure every word we say for fear that someone will turn what may have been a light hearted jab into a overblown big deal.

As John reminds us, without the benefit of tone of voice, facial expression and body languange, some words take on a totally different meaning.

Re: Re:KIM

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 18:43 (045881)

No, I think we all know your meaning ,we don't need to see your face or body languange .....Your to funny ,again you start all of this and then poor you....You can have an opinion ,but God forgive if anyone else does..I have a thought ,let's call the board 'Ask Kim '' since you think you know everything ,and everyone is stupid to you..PLEASE!!!!!!
Laurie R

Re: Foul! TX-Barbara

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 18:52 (045883)

Barbara, This is a sarcastic, mean spirited slam. But it does demonstrate how low you will go.

Again, the opiates I recently began taking are for my Fibromyalgia illness, which is really none of your business. The fact that it had any affedt at all was an unexpected, but welcome, side affect. I shared that imformation with this board to help others who may have been at the end of their rope, not to have it thrown up to me as if I am a junkie of some sort. This is a low blow on your part. Grow up. You're a joke. And don't dish it out if you can't take it.

Re: Re:Foul! Laurie R.!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 19:38 (045893)

You've got a lot of 'know it all' in you too! Not to mention rudeness. You don't have to agree with my posts, but you do have to allow me to post what I think is right without slamming me everytime I do. You really need to get off my back. I have friends here and there are people that appreciate my contributions. They just don't choose to get involved in the childisness aspects of it. I don't judge my friend by whether or not they participate in this ridiculous word war. I will continue to defend myself if you insist on degrading my character. Everybody is intitled to there opinion, but I bet Scott would appreciate it if you would quit wasting his bandwith with your continuous insults.

Re: Re:Foul! FOUL,FOUL ,KIM!!!!!!!!!

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 20:37 (045901)

Here we go again,poor Kim ,for your info this is only the second time I have ever said anyhting to you. You scare people that is why no one wants to say anything to you.Get your facts right!!!!! Your so right about one thing ,this is ridiculous ,so stop!!!

Re: FOUL - Laurie

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 20:42 (045904)

Laurie, I know you probably responded to Kim before seeing my last posts, but I wanted to proactice and test the whistle, so I'm 'picking' on you as an example. This isn't a real FOUL that counts.
====================
This post was deemed 'FOUL' by the referee for the following X-marked reason(s). In most instances, no one should reply to this or the offending message. After 3 fouls, a block may be placed on the IP address of the poster to prevent posting for 60 days or more.

[X] The post was off-topic. The post was not about foot pain.
[] The post was not nice.**
[] The post was an offensive, suspicious, or repeating advertisement.
[] The poster attempted to be anonymous by not using their usual nickname.

** It's always OK to be honest and factual in a post that is critical, but it's not OK to merely attack, anger, or otherwise encourage useless, off-topic posts. In all posts, the emphasis should be on facts, foot pain, and helping others.
Arguments against declaring this and similar posts 'foul' should be sent to scott@heelspurs.com

Re: Foul! TX-Barbara

Barbara TX on 4/27/01 at 09:30 (045950)

Kim - I was speaking for myself, if you will re-read the post. It is because I don't want to go on strong medications sit in my house like a zombie, have potentially damaging surgery, etc. that I chose ESWT. If it works, I am free of all those things. Your paranoia about ESWT leads many away from a viable treatment option that will spare them years of being an invalid. If you don't want to try it, don't.

And what makes you think that I can't take it? I figure that you have been so rude to all the people that give me support that I would be a party to your words if I did not write. I won't just sit by and watch you call everyone stupid for choosing ESWT, or maligning helpful, generous people, or telling me to 'grow-up.' Once again you have shown the inability to be introspective about criticism. B.

Re: I am getting really tired of this

Kay S on 4/27/01 at 17:28 (046014)

Ditto, Wendyn.
Kay

Re: To Judy S Here is a good question to ask yourself or Dr. Rompe

JudyS on 4/28/01 at 23:48 (046115)

Pauline,
Your graciousness at this time, like your other skills, is exemplary. :) JS