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My Options

Posted by Scott R on 4/26/01 at 09:06 (045794)

1) Sell or lease the message board to Dr. Z
2) Get someone like John H to referee
3) Have Dr. Z's ESWT posts have a 2-sentence info-'disclaimer' to appease Pauline and Kim with the understanding that they stop harassing Dr. Z and cluttering up the board. The disclaimer would have to be agreeable to Dr. Z, me, Pauline, and Kim.

Re: My Options

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 09:11 (045797)

But I guess the 3rd option would make it justifiable for Dr. Z to claim OssaTron doctors also need info-'disclaimers' at the end of each of their posts that says ESWT is available for 1/3 cost at his office in case insurance doesn't pay for it.

The disclaimer(s) can be attached automatically via my programming.

Re: My Options

davidba on 4/26/01 at 11:16 (045810)

A third option: Why don't we all agree to simply relax and begin to try to help each other again. We all face a big physical problem and hopefully we all try to educate ourselves as best we can about the various treatment options. But clogging up the message board with a fight that is becoming increasingly personal is not useful. I'll make the same suggestion that I made months ago when there was a big personal debate about stretching equipment: why don't the people so concerned about settling an argument (which, of course will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction) take their fight to private e-mail and let the rest of us try to help each other simply cope with our day-to-day activities and our eternal search for comfort. By the way, I'm now identifying myself as Davidb because I noticed that another davidb recently posted a message. I hope no one takes this suggestion personally; it is simply meant to try to bring some calm to an increasingly nasty situation.

Re: My Options

john h on 4/26/01 at 11:27 (045813)

good suggestion david.

Re: My Options

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:04 (045832)

Scott - Just tell Kim and Pauline that they are not allowed to come here anymore. Why are you afraid to do that? I mean, its your board! You are the law here. Are you afraid that someone is going to sue you or something? You can do whatever the heck you want. You can boot me off because my eyes are brown and there is not a darn thing I can do about it. You could solve your problem with two clicks of a button, my friend. So, either boot them off or just let them display their curious disorders and live with the kind of group that evolves from that. Nothing but booting them off will solve this (I mean, haven't we been here and back a hundred times)? If you always do what you've always done then you'll always get what you've always gotten.

Don't lease the board to Dr. Z. He is too nice and he lets these harpies walk all over him (sorry, David, but its true).

Ah... once again I have expended precious typing energy over this tiresome topic. But I have to tell you that I am GLOVES OFF with Kim and Pauline. You don't let slanders do unanswered. And since these two have displayed behaviors that harrass, just boot them off or be a party to it. When you grat them endless leave to post their bile, you make it difficult for all of us to follow your niceness rules. B.

Re: My Options

DR. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 13:10 (045833)

You have my vote!!! All people that want to further discuss the machine and me only at footcare@home.com

Re: My Options

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 13:14 (045834)

Wow,

And I though you were one of the patients that I hurt. I was trying to think in my mind all of the patients . I put you on this list. I know you are still in pain and I haven't been able to help you at this point.

Boy! doctor you really know how to just say it .!!!

Re: My Options

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:42 (045839)

No! Just because I am falling into the 20% of people that is unhelped by ESWT doesn't mean that I don't edorse the technology of ESWT with impartiality. I have been made NO WORSE AT ANY POINT. Compare that to the risks of surgery, footpeople.

Kim would have everyone on the board believe that I am a mindless lemming for choosing ESWT, but i think I made one of the most informed an intelligent decisions of my life. Dr. Lewi would be pleased... if my third time won't work, can we progress directly to the chimplant? B.

Re: Scott, what about the delete option?

Beverly on 4/26/01 at 14:39 (045848)

Scott,

Well, moments ago, I posted I wasn't going to say anything else on this topic, but I am tempted by one last thought.

Isn't there a way to simply hit the delete button? Rather than a referee, who will only end up prolonging this ridiculous line of dialogue, couldn't you simply delete posts that are unfriendly? Then delete the responding posts as well? I know that is alot of trouble.

I still say that if all of us, myself included, will simply stop responding to these nasty posts, the problem will resolve itself.

I once had an old boyfriend who would not leave me alone. He used to send me letters. At first, I marked them 'return to sender.' Then, my therapist told me that even that much dialogue was giving him attention. Eventually, I just put each letter in the trash unopened. It worked like a charm. No attention. No further letters.

Dr. Z, I do hope you will continue to offer your lottery. It was a generous and outstanding offer and it would be sad to see it end.
Beverly

Re: World's most qualified referee

JohnW on 4/26/01 at 16:35 (045861)

Retirement is getting old. Perhaps my skills could be of some use to this group. I even have a striped shirt. Can someone define the dispute in a nutshell.

Re: World's most qualified referee

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 16:48 (045865)

Hi,John

It's good old Dr. Z. How are you doing ? Well I guess I turned this place into a war zone when you left me with the keys. Glad that you are back. I just passed the ossatron reading training program, waiting for the ossatron to show up so that i can make it available to the state of New Jersey. It is on its way and should be in place sometime in May.

Anyway. I am now called the heel pain wizard on this board so what are you three wishes.

Glad to see you postings

Re: OK, we have a referee

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 17:17 (045867)

I'm not against one of HealthTronic's founders (John W) being the referee. He's very knowledgeable about the subject. It's true that he owns an awful lot of HTRN stock (Dr. Z's 'competitor'), but for some reason I think he might be fair. We can give him a try if he really wants it. It'll be up to the rest of us to referee the referee. I'll work on his 'whistle' (the canned response notifying the offending party of the transgression) tonight. 3 fouls and they're out for a month.

Re: My Options

john h on 4/26/01 at 17:32 (045869)

we do not want to kick anyone off the board unless they are vulgar or unnecessarily rude. they have their opinions. if somone really bothers me then i just do not read their post or respond. i do not remember that happening although i do disagree on occasion. sometimes in written communication we read things into a post that are not meant by the communicator. i may post something in jest and someone may take me seriously because they do not know me or cannot see my facial expressions or body language. this shall all pass and we can move on to something new.

Re: World's most qualified referee

john h on 4/26/01 at 17:44 (045870)

just read Healthtronic year end financal report. Revenues up around 39% over 1999 but only about 6% of this came from the Ossatron since it only gained approval by the FDA in October. Most increased revenues came from the Lithotriptor. AT the end of 2000 their were 20 Ossatron's in operation in the U.S and the the last time i checked their website i think there are now 56 in operation. The report also notes there are in excess of 6 million new cases of PF diagnoesd each year. Probably within a year or two we will have a couple of other machines approved by the FDA. I am interested to know what success the machines are having in treating PF. they should have a good data base by now and i would like to know if they are doing any multiple or repeat treatments.

Re: Thanks John -

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045876)

That's the most intelligent and accurate post I've read lately.

Re: OK, we have a referee

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 19:05 (045888)

If it is three fouls and your out,then Kim has about 3 years off the board.... Laurie R

Re: Foul Laurie!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 19:17 (045890)

Keep it coming. You are no better than I am at holding your tongue. You just can't let it die can you? Keep it coming.

Re: Scott and John W.

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045892)

Scott, shounds fair to me. He gets my vote (as if you care, ha ha). Though, I still think it's sad that a forum needs a referee, so that some of the kiddies her will have someone to whine to. May I suggest that we call him the board's 'Moderator' instead of referee?

John, W., if you can be an unbiased, fairminded judge of sometimes contorted and misconstrude information, your presence will actually be appreciate. I promise to abide by whatever you (Or Scott of course) tell me to do.

Re: First Call

JohnW on 4/26/01 at 20:14 (045897)

Dr Z's Orbasone is functionally equivalent to the ossatron and other high energy type machines. Dr. Z has known this since day one.

In over 200,000 cases worldwide,there has never been a reported incidence of any orthotripsy type device, including the orbasone, having causing harm to any patient. The only harm is a bad outcome, i.e., wasting time and money in about 20% of the cases.

From the healthtronics perspective, Dr. Z is not to be blamed nor held in contempt. He is using a perfectly good device within its specifications to treat indications proven to have benefitted from the therapy. The complaint is with Norland who deceived the public and the FDA. Further, the complaint is with the FDA for not siezing the units already delivered.

As long as the device is installed at Dr. Z's site, Patients would be wise to consider this alternative. As of this date nobody is more experienced than DR. Z. If my insurance refused to pay - I would choose this option.

The only risk that I see with the orbasone treatment is taken by Dr. Z. Should a patient have a bad outcome, however unlikely(see above) a plaintiffs attorney would make hay with the 'therapeutic vibrator' and 'fda detention issues'. However shallow Dr. Z's pockets may be they are deeper than the importer or manufacturer. Dr. Z is the only person taking a risk.

Re: First Call

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 21:13 (045914)

John,

What is your opinoion on the present classification of ESWT machines. In my short experience I see the ESWT market as being one where the treatment is in the office and not in an ASC envirnoment. I picture the pateint coming into an office or maybe a ESWT center and having a short treatment and then in two weeks maybe another treatment. Each and every patient will have a specific energy treatment maybe a low, maybe a low with some high and maybe high down the road. The goal will be ambulation. The treatment will start at a low setting and move up to a higer setting. This would be in the judgement of the treating physician.

So volume will be the norm and centers will do 100 treatment per week.
What was the thinking process behind the in the ASC, one shot treatment and then wait for the twelve weeks.

Give us you view on the future.

Re: First Call

Julie on 4/27/01 at 04:07 (045928)

Dear John W

I read your 'first call' with a deep sigh of relief. I am glad that you've offered yourself as referee. It was essential for someone with knowledge, sense, and breadth of experience and vision to step in to bring this unfortunate drama to an end. Thank you for being that person and fulfilling that function.

I look forward to your future, factual, posts on ESWT.

All the best

Julie

Re: typical treatment

johnw on 4/27/01 at 10:32 (045959)

Most of the current efforts are geared towards having the treatments in an ASC or hospital environment. For the next couple of years until several competitors are approved, the treatments will mirror lithotripsy (kidney stone) treatments. Most treatments will be performed with IV sedation, on high energy settings in surgical centers or hospitals with the Dr. billing for the professional component. Most patients will only be treated one time. IMO.

Re: First Call

JohnW on 4/27/01 at 10:34 (045960)

I am forwarding this message to my wife. She will certainly get a laugh out of your 'insightfullness' and totally disagree. Thanks.

Re: typical treatment

john h on 4/27/01 at 11:28 (045967)

in my mind the greatest machine i ever saw was the Lipotriptor that removed my kidney stone. I would have given them my wife,cat,house, and anything else they wanted to stop that pain. It did in about one hour. How does this machine differ from the Ossatron in being able to have a focal point into the kidney. as the stone is hit it obviously moves and the machine has to be re focused does it not?

i have had two ESWT treatments with dr zuckerman with ankle blocks. power around 18KV. at what power is the Ossatron normally used? Will a doctor do a second Ossatron treatment if the patient request it?

Re: typical treatment

johnw on 4/27/01 at 14:01 (045992)

The technology is nearly identical.. In fact one of the multiple inventors of the lithotripter invented the ossatron.. Really, the only difference is the shape of the elipsoid which detemines if the focal point is inside the body, lithotripter, or topical, orthotripter.

The power on the ossatron varies- local anesthesia cases treat at up to 18, while sedation cases treat at 20-22kv.

Re: First Call

Kay S on 4/27/01 at 18:52 (046017)

Greetings, and welcome, JohnW!
Though I haven't been on this board long enough to know you, I can tell by your post that you are a reasonable man, and I sooooo appreciate that.
Thank you for lending some sanity to all of this.
Kay
PS Even if others disagree with your opinion, you certainly simplified it for those of us who like to keep things simple!

Re: typical treatment

john h on 4/27/01 at 19:35 (046021)

is there any evidence that 20-22kv is more effective than 18kv?

Re: typical treatment

JohnW on 4/28/01 at 09:17 (046057)

Nothing that would pass statistical muster;however, much anectdotal evidence exist through the informal network of longtime users.

Re: typical treatment

Kay S on 4/28/01 at 10:25 (046063)

You probably already know this, John, but the principle of the lithotripsy is to break up the stone so your body can get rid of it through the urinary tract. If the stone is stuck in a ureter, it's stuck, and they can 'aim' the jolt to that area. Then the stone is in a large number of small pieces, all capable of traveling through that small tube and OUT of your body via urination. Sometimes the doc will attempt to retrieve the stone with a basket-type scoop device (in a surgical procedure) but this is not always possible.
When my husband had a kidney stone, he would have let them cut him from head to toe to get the darn thing out. He had never had surgery before, but he was BEGGING the urologist to do something.
I guess this is the same principle being used with ESWT and our calcifications at the insertion site, right?
Kay

Re: typical treatment

Johnw on 4/28/01 at 18:23 (046089)

There have been numerous studies on PF performed on modified lithotripters. The technology is the same - focused acoustic energy. up tp 6000psi in the focal point.

Re: typical treatment

Julie on 4/29/01 at 01:32 (046129)

Kay, this has been puzzling me. I know lithotripsy for kidney stones works as you describe, by breaking up a stone so that it can it can be passed through the ureter, but I don't think it works on the same principle in treatment for PF (i.e. breaking up the spur). I recall Dr Z saying that it kickstarts the healing process by stimulating bleeding to the injured area but he didn't say anything about breaking up the calcifications. Perhaps he can clarify this. Dr Z?

Re: My Options

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 09:11 (045797)

But I guess the 3rd option would make it justifiable for Dr. Z to claim OssaTron doctors also need info-'disclaimers' at the end of each of their posts that says ESWT is available for 1/3 cost at his office in case insurance doesn't pay for it.

The disclaimer(s) can be attached automatically via my programming.

Re: My Options

davidba on 4/26/01 at 11:16 (045810)

A third option: Why don't we all agree to simply relax and begin to try to help each other again. We all face a big physical problem and hopefully we all try to educate ourselves as best we can about the various treatment options. But clogging up the message board with a fight that is becoming increasingly personal is not useful. I'll make the same suggestion that I made months ago when there was a big personal debate about stretching equipment: why don't the people so concerned about settling an argument (which, of course will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction) take their fight to private e-mail and let the rest of us try to help each other simply cope with our day-to-day activities and our eternal search for comfort. By the way, I'm now identifying myself as Davidb because I noticed that another davidb recently posted a message. I hope no one takes this suggestion personally; it is simply meant to try to bring some calm to an increasingly nasty situation.

Re: My Options

john h on 4/26/01 at 11:27 (045813)

good suggestion david.

Re: My Options

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:04 (045832)

Scott - Just tell Kim and Pauline that they are not allowed to come here anymore. Why are you afraid to do that? I mean, its your board! You are the law here. Are you afraid that someone is going to sue you or something? You can do whatever the heck you want. You can boot me off because my eyes are brown and there is not a darn thing I can do about it. You could solve your problem with two clicks of a button, my friend. So, either boot them off or just let them display their curious disorders and live with the kind of group that evolves from that. Nothing but booting them off will solve this (I mean, haven't we been here and back a hundred times)? If you always do what you've always done then you'll always get what you've always gotten.

Don't lease the board to Dr. Z. He is too nice and he lets these harpies walk all over him (sorry, David, but its true).

Ah... once again I have expended precious typing energy over this tiresome topic. But I have to tell you that I am GLOVES OFF with Kim and Pauline. You don't let slanders do unanswered. And since these two have displayed behaviors that harrass, just boot them off or be a party to it. When you grat them endless leave to post their bile, you make it difficult for all of us to follow your niceness rules. B.

Re: My Options

DR. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 13:10 (045833)

You have my vote!!! All people that want to further discuss the machine and me only at footcare@home.com

Re: My Options

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 13:14 (045834)

Wow,

And I though you were one of the patients that I hurt. I was trying to think in my mind all of the patients . I put you on this list. I know you are still in pain and I haven't been able to help you at this point.

Boy! doctor you really know how to just say it .!!!

Re: My Options

Barbara TX on 4/26/01 at 13:42 (045839)

No! Just because I am falling into the 20% of people that is unhelped by ESWT doesn't mean that I don't edorse the technology of ESWT with impartiality. I have been made NO WORSE AT ANY POINT. Compare that to the risks of surgery, footpeople.

Kim would have everyone on the board believe that I am a mindless lemming for choosing ESWT, but i think I made one of the most informed an intelligent decisions of my life. Dr. Lewi would be pleased... if my third time won't work, can we progress directly to the chimplant? B.

Re: Scott, what about the delete option?

Beverly on 4/26/01 at 14:39 (045848)

Scott,

Well, moments ago, I posted I wasn't going to say anything else on this topic, but I am tempted by one last thought.

Isn't there a way to simply hit the delete button? Rather than a referee, who will only end up prolonging this ridiculous line of dialogue, couldn't you simply delete posts that are unfriendly? Then delete the responding posts as well? I know that is alot of trouble.

I still say that if all of us, myself included, will simply stop responding to these nasty posts, the problem will resolve itself.

I once had an old boyfriend who would not leave me alone. He used to send me letters. At first, I marked them 'return to sender.' Then, my therapist told me that even that much dialogue was giving him attention. Eventually, I just put each letter in the trash unopened. It worked like a charm. No attention. No further letters.

Dr. Z, I do hope you will continue to offer your lottery. It was a generous and outstanding offer and it would be sad to see it end.
Beverly

Re: World's most qualified referee

JohnW on 4/26/01 at 16:35 (045861)

Retirement is getting old. Perhaps my skills could be of some use to this group. I even have a striped shirt. Can someone define the dispute in a nutshell.

Re: World's most qualified referee

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 16:48 (045865)

Hi,John

It's good old Dr. Z. How are you doing ? Well I guess I turned this place into a war zone when you left me with the keys. Glad that you are back. I just passed the ossatron reading training program, waiting for the ossatron to show up so that i can make it available to the state of New Jersey. It is on its way and should be in place sometime in May.

Anyway. I am now called the heel pain wizard on this board so what are you three wishes.

Glad to see you postings

Re: OK, we have a referee

Scott R on 4/26/01 at 17:17 (045867)

I'm not against one of HealthTronic's founders (John W) being the referee. He's very knowledgeable about the subject. It's true that he owns an awful lot of HTRN stock (Dr. Z's 'competitor'), but for some reason I think he might be fair. We can give him a try if he really wants it. It'll be up to the rest of us to referee the referee. I'll work on his 'whistle' (the canned response notifying the offending party of the transgression) tonight. 3 fouls and they're out for a month.

Re: My Options

john h on 4/26/01 at 17:32 (045869)

we do not want to kick anyone off the board unless they are vulgar or unnecessarily rude. they have their opinions. if somone really bothers me then i just do not read their post or respond. i do not remember that happening although i do disagree on occasion. sometimes in written communication we read things into a post that are not meant by the communicator. i may post something in jest and someone may take me seriously because they do not know me or cannot see my facial expressions or body language. this shall all pass and we can move on to something new.

Re: World's most qualified referee

john h on 4/26/01 at 17:44 (045870)

just read Healthtronic year end financal report. Revenues up around 39% over 1999 but only about 6% of this came from the Ossatron since it only gained approval by the FDA in October. Most increased revenues came from the Lithotriptor. AT the end of 2000 their were 20 Ossatron's in operation in the U.S and the the last time i checked their website i think there are now 56 in operation. The report also notes there are in excess of 6 million new cases of PF diagnoesd each year. Probably within a year or two we will have a couple of other machines approved by the FDA. I am interested to know what success the machines are having in treating PF. they should have a good data base by now and i would like to know if they are doing any multiple or repeat treatments.

Re: Thanks John -

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045876)

That's the most intelligent and accurate post I've read lately.

Re: OK, we have a referee

Laurie R on 4/26/01 at 19:05 (045888)

If it is three fouls and your out,then Kim has about 3 years off the board.... Laurie R

Re: Foul Laurie!

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at 19:17 (045890)

Keep it coming. You are no better than I am at holding your tongue. You just can't let it die can you? Keep it coming.

Re: Scott and John W.

Kim B. on 4/26/01 at hrmin (045892)

Scott, shounds fair to me. He gets my vote (as if you care, ha ha). Though, I still think it's sad that a forum needs a referee, so that some of the kiddies her will have someone to whine to. May I suggest that we call him the board's 'Moderator' instead of referee?

John, W., if you can be an unbiased, fairminded judge of sometimes contorted and misconstrude information, your presence will actually be appreciate. I promise to abide by whatever you (Or Scott of course) tell me to do.

Re: First Call

JohnW on 4/26/01 at 20:14 (045897)

Dr Z's Orbasone is functionally equivalent to the ossatron and other high energy type machines. Dr. Z has known this since day one.

In over 200,000 cases worldwide,there has never been a reported incidence of any orthotripsy type device, including the orbasone, having causing harm to any patient. The only harm is a bad outcome, i.e., wasting time and money in about 20% of the cases.

From the healthtronics perspective, Dr. Z is not to be blamed nor held in contempt. He is using a perfectly good device within its specifications to treat indications proven to have benefitted from the therapy. The complaint is with Norland who deceived the public and the FDA. Further, the complaint is with the FDA for not siezing the units already delivered.

As long as the device is installed at Dr. Z's site, Patients would be wise to consider this alternative. As of this date nobody is more experienced than DR. Z. If my insurance refused to pay - I would choose this option.

The only risk that I see with the orbasone treatment is taken by Dr. Z. Should a patient have a bad outcome, however unlikely(see above) a plaintiffs attorney would make hay with the 'therapeutic vibrator' and 'fda detention issues'. However shallow Dr. Z's pockets may be they are deeper than the importer or manufacturer. Dr. Z is the only person taking a risk.

Re: First Call

Dr. Zuckerman on 4/26/01 at 21:13 (045914)

John,

What is your opinoion on the present classification of ESWT machines. In my short experience I see the ESWT market as being one where the treatment is in the office and not in an ASC envirnoment. I picture the pateint coming into an office or maybe a ESWT center and having a short treatment and then in two weeks maybe another treatment. Each and every patient will have a specific energy treatment maybe a low, maybe a low with some high and maybe high down the road. The goal will be ambulation. The treatment will start at a low setting and move up to a higer setting. This would be in the judgement of the treating physician.

So volume will be the norm and centers will do 100 treatment per week.
What was the thinking process behind the in the ASC, one shot treatment and then wait for the twelve weeks.

Give us you view on the future.

Re: First Call

Julie on 4/27/01 at 04:07 (045928)

Dear John W

I read your 'first call' with a deep sigh of relief. I am glad that you've offered yourself as referee. It was essential for someone with knowledge, sense, and breadth of experience and vision to step in to bring this unfortunate drama to an end. Thank you for being that person and fulfilling that function.

I look forward to your future, factual, posts on ESWT.

All the best

Julie

Re: typical treatment

johnw on 4/27/01 at 10:32 (045959)

Most of the current efforts are geared towards having the treatments in an ASC or hospital environment. For the next couple of years until several competitors are approved, the treatments will mirror lithotripsy (kidney stone) treatments. Most treatments will be performed with IV sedation, on high energy settings in surgical centers or hospitals with the Dr. billing for the professional component. Most patients will only be treated one time. IMO.

Re: First Call

JohnW on 4/27/01 at 10:34 (045960)

I am forwarding this message to my wife. She will certainly get a laugh out of your 'insightfullness' and totally disagree. Thanks.

Re: typical treatment

john h on 4/27/01 at 11:28 (045967)

in my mind the greatest machine i ever saw was the Lipotriptor that removed my kidney stone. I would have given them my wife,cat,house, and anything else they wanted to stop that pain. It did in about one hour. How does this machine differ from the Ossatron in being able to have a focal point into the kidney. as the stone is hit it obviously moves and the machine has to be re focused does it not?

i have had two ESWT treatments with dr zuckerman with ankle blocks. power around 18KV. at what power is the Ossatron normally used? Will a doctor do a second Ossatron treatment if the patient request it?

Re: typical treatment

johnw on 4/27/01 at 14:01 (045992)

The technology is nearly identical.. In fact one of the multiple inventors of the lithotripter invented the ossatron.. Really, the only difference is the shape of the elipsoid which detemines if the focal point is inside the body, lithotripter, or topical, orthotripter.

The power on the ossatron varies- local anesthesia cases treat at up to 18, while sedation cases treat at 20-22kv.

Re: First Call

Kay S on 4/27/01 at 18:52 (046017)

Greetings, and welcome, JohnW!
Though I haven't been on this board long enough to know you, I can tell by your post that you are a reasonable man, and I sooooo appreciate that.
Thank you for lending some sanity to all of this.
Kay
PS Even if others disagree with your opinion, you certainly simplified it for those of us who like to keep things simple!

Re: typical treatment

john h on 4/27/01 at 19:35 (046021)

is there any evidence that 20-22kv is more effective than 18kv?

Re: typical treatment

JohnW on 4/28/01 at 09:17 (046057)

Nothing that would pass statistical muster;however, much anectdotal evidence exist through the informal network of longtime users.

Re: typical treatment

Kay S on 4/28/01 at 10:25 (046063)

You probably already know this, John, but the principle of the lithotripsy is to break up the stone so your body can get rid of it through the urinary tract. If the stone is stuck in a ureter, it's stuck, and they can 'aim' the jolt to that area. Then the stone is in a large number of small pieces, all capable of traveling through that small tube and OUT of your body via urination. Sometimes the doc will attempt to retrieve the stone with a basket-type scoop device (in a surgical procedure) but this is not always possible.
When my husband had a kidney stone, he would have let them cut him from head to toe to get the darn thing out. He had never had surgery before, but he was BEGGING the urologist to do something.
I guess this is the same principle being used with ESWT and our calcifications at the insertion site, right?
Kay

Re: typical treatment

Johnw on 4/28/01 at 18:23 (046089)

There have been numerous studies on PF performed on modified lithotripters. The technology is the same - focused acoustic energy. up tp 6000psi in the focal point.

Re: typical treatment

Julie on 4/29/01 at 01:32 (046129)

Kay, this has been puzzling me. I know lithotripsy for kidney stones works as you describe, by breaking up a stone so that it can it can be passed through the ureter, but I don't think it works on the same principle in treatment for PF (i.e. breaking up the spur). I recall Dr Z saying that it kickstarts the healing process by stimulating bleeding to the injured area but he didn't say anything about breaking up the calcifications. Perhaps he can clarify this. Dr Z?