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Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Posted by Scott R on 6/20/01 at 10:39 (051111)

Don't we have to exclude those who are getting ESWT and trying the balm at the same time?

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

john h on 6/20/01 at 11:05 (051113)

i have thought about that scott. i still use the balm and if the premises is that the balm promotes an immune response then the only factor would be you would not know which worked. maybe together you can do even better!!!! whatever--i will use both and let each share the glory. if by some miracle my feet were to be cured i would make a trip to N.J. and take Dr Z and his staff all to the same resturant and sing the menu to them myself. i will keep the jade balm folks informed of my progress.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Steve P on 6/20/01 at 20:37 (051147)

Scott -- I'm using both also.

Steve

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/21/01 at hrmin (051166)

I don't think so. I agree with John h, the aim is to try and ease people's pain. It doesn't matter (to me anyway) how that is achieved. Of course it would be nice to know exactly to what degree the Jade helped. However, notwithstanding ESWT or other treatments coinciding with the Jade trial, we will honour our commitment to supply sufficient product for all participants for three months. As I've mentioned elsewhere, this is just a water-tester. If there are clear indications to proceed with a larger, double blind trial, then we will support that, but I'll need a bit of help.
So far, everyone has been marvellously cooperative which has made my task a lot easier than it could have otherwise been. Thanks to everyone.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Zuckerman on 6/21/01 at 17:39 (051192)

Doesn't realy matter but if it can be proven that it is the Jade Balm then look at the cost difference between the two treatments. There are some doctors that believe that ESWT works because it stimulates the immune system and heals pf. I have no idea or is my experience and training point to this but we must try to keep an open mind in order to learn. !!!!

Re: observation

john h on 6/21/01 at 17:46 (051193)

i found that while visiting dr z,judy,nancy, and barb that for 24 hours i forgot i had any foot pain. i have observed this at other times when i am somewhat intensely engaged with people. there is probably a good psycho reason for this but i will take relief where ever it comes.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051216)

I agree, in fact some trial participants may already be beginning to think that way if the positive feedback I'm getting is anything to go by. Also, even though it's anecdotal, I have actually been observing the Jade phenomenon for nearly five years and have no doubt as to its efficacy in certain areas. I agree that everything we do in medicine has to be evidence based, but simple observation and using and trusting your senses IS nonetheless evidence. Exactly how many medical discoveries have been made in this way I couldn't say, but there have been many.
Perhaps the pharmaceutical industry has hijacked the medical debate to the point that health professionals blindly believe most of what they say. It's a bit like watching TV compared to listening to the radio. With the radio you have to at least use your imagination but regular TV viewing I reckon causes neuronal atrophy. The uses of Jade are only limited by one's imagination, you can trust me on that.
Dr. Zuckerman, thank you for your open mindedness on this issue. I have little doubt that PF is an auto-immune disorder and that if we attack it at its source, we can beat it. I would like to discuss this more with you if possible. After all, we're all out there trying to help our patients, aren't we? Kind regards. Chris Reynolds.

Re: PF and autoimmunity

Mary De on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051221)

Dr. Reynolds,

I recently posted a question on the 'Ask the Drs' board which you might have some insight on. You believe that PF is an auto-immune disorder (immune system attacks own body) based on your clinical observation and intuition (if I read your posts correctly). Is there any other research or evidence that you know of? Is auto-immune disorder the same lowered immunity, or is it a different beastie? In either case, there are a number of herbal remedies and and such. Would these be worth a try for PF?

Thank you!

Re: PF and autoimmunity

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051223)

I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question. Auto-immunity is always a difficult one to respond to. Just why our own antibodies attack our bodies, and particularly one area such as the plantar fascia I really don't believe anyone knows. I also believe that anal fissure is not so much a result of mechanical factors such as constipation, but more to an auto-immune reaction. I feel even stronger about this than I do about PF, because using the Jade Balm, I have never had a treatment failure. In fact some patients have had it for thirty years and cleared up in about two weeks without recurrence. Can this really be due to mechanical factors?
By the way, when I say all my patients have overcome their anal fissure, that of course does not include those lost to follow up. Perhaps they didn't return because their problem disappeared. I don't know.
As for herbal remedies, I am not a naturopath, I'm just an ordinary pretty basic family physician and apart from Jade, I use no other complementary medicines. Given my experience of improvement of PF with Jade, and, after the first week of the current Jade trial which is beginning already to show promising results, I personally couldn't recommend anything better. I will be posting these results here in a few days when I get all the responses back. You also might like to look at my website for more information. It is http://www.wire.net.au/~jastmi/default.html

Re: PF and autoimmunity

john h on 6/22/01 at 09:32 (051233)

there is probably few herbal remedies that some of us have not tried. among other things i tried emu oil, australian eyucalyptus oil, and a host of herbal suppliments. some people report success. none have worked for me. i am currently trying the Jade Balm. Dr Reynold's theory about an immune response seems as good a theory as others i have heard. I personally think that PF is not one specific disease but a problem caused by various things in each individual (nerve damage,inflamed fascia,age,over activity,over weight, torn fasica,high arch,flat feet,bad shoes) the list is endless. Various doctors disagree on where the pain generator is in PF. If we knew we could access it and perhaps cure us all. what will work for one of us will create pain in others so you must experiment and find what works for you. start with finding a caring and knowledgeable doctor. having bilaterial pf i find when one foot gets better/worse the other foot does the same! why is this? other experience the same phenomena. some days the feet will get worse for no apparent reason and some days will get better for no apparent reason. PF is indeed an enigma a mystery wrapped in a mystery.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

JudyS on 6/22/01 at 11:30 (051255)

I thought about that also, Scott, as I was considering ordering the Balm. But I decided it was more important to keep the ESWT treatment isolated for the time being. Besides, I'm not sure that it's wise to order and pay money for the product until we've heard from our guinea pigs here....

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

john h on 6/20/01 at 11:05 (051113)

i have thought about that scott. i still use the balm and if the premises is that the balm promotes an immune response then the only factor would be you would not know which worked. maybe together you can do even better!!!! whatever--i will use both and let each share the glory. if by some miracle my feet were to be cured i would make a trip to N.J. and take Dr Z and his staff all to the same resturant and sing the menu to them myself. i will keep the jade balm folks informed of my progress.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Steve P on 6/20/01 at 20:37 (051147)

Scott -- I'm using both also.

Steve

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/21/01 at hrmin (051166)

I don't think so. I agree with John h, the aim is to try and ease people's pain. It doesn't matter (to me anyway) how that is achieved. Of course it would be nice to know exactly to what degree the Jade helped. However, notwithstanding ESWT or other treatments coinciding with the Jade trial, we will honour our commitment to supply sufficient product for all participants for three months. As I've mentioned elsewhere, this is just a water-tester. If there are clear indications to proceed with a larger, double blind trial, then we will support that, but I'll need a bit of help.
So far, everyone has been marvellously cooperative which has made my task a lot easier than it could have otherwise been. Thanks to everyone.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Zuckerman on 6/21/01 at 17:39 (051192)

Doesn't realy matter but if it can be proven that it is the Jade Balm then look at the cost difference between the two treatments. There are some doctors that believe that ESWT works because it stimulates the immune system and heals pf. I have no idea or is my experience and training point to this but we must try to keep an open mind in order to learn. !!!!

Re: observation

john h on 6/21/01 at 17:46 (051193)

i found that while visiting dr z,judy,nancy, and barb that for 24 hours i forgot i had any foot pain. i have observed this at other times when i am somewhat intensely engaged with people. there is probably a good psycho reason for this but i will take relief where ever it comes.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051216)

I agree, in fact some trial participants may already be beginning to think that way if the positive feedback I'm getting is anything to go by. Also, even though it's anecdotal, I have actually been observing the Jade phenomenon for nearly five years and have no doubt as to its efficacy in certain areas. I agree that everything we do in medicine has to be evidence based, but simple observation and using and trusting your senses IS nonetheless evidence. Exactly how many medical discoveries have been made in this way I couldn't say, but there have been many.
Perhaps the pharmaceutical industry has hijacked the medical debate to the point that health professionals blindly believe most of what they say. It's a bit like watching TV compared to listening to the radio. With the radio you have to at least use your imagination but regular TV viewing I reckon causes neuronal atrophy. The uses of Jade are only limited by one's imagination, you can trust me on that.
Dr. Zuckerman, thank you for your open mindedness on this issue. I have little doubt that PF is an auto-immune disorder and that if we attack it at its source, we can beat it. I would like to discuss this more with you if possible. After all, we're all out there trying to help our patients, aren't we? Kind regards. Chris Reynolds.

Re: PF and autoimmunity

Mary De on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051221)

Dr. Reynolds,

I recently posted a question on the 'Ask the Drs' board which you might have some insight on. You believe that PF is an auto-immune disorder (immune system attacks own body) based on your clinical observation and intuition (if I read your posts correctly). Is there any other research or evidence that you know of? Is auto-immune disorder the same lowered immunity, or is it a different beastie? In either case, there are a number of herbal remedies and and such. Would these be worth a try for PF?

Thank you!

Re: PF and autoimmunity

Dr. Chris Reynolds on 6/22/01 at hrmin (051223)

I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question. Auto-immunity is always a difficult one to respond to. Just why our own antibodies attack our bodies, and particularly one area such as the plantar fascia I really don't believe anyone knows. I also believe that anal fissure is not so much a result of mechanical factors such as constipation, but more to an auto-immune reaction. I feel even stronger about this than I do about PF, because using the Jade Balm, I have never had a treatment failure. In fact some patients have had it for thirty years and cleared up in about two weeks without recurrence. Can this really be due to mechanical factors?
By the way, when I say all my patients have overcome their anal fissure, that of course does not include those lost to follow up. Perhaps they didn't return because their problem disappeared. I don't know.
As for herbal remedies, I am not a naturopath, I'm just an ordinary pretty basic family physician and apart from Jade, I use no other complementary medicines. Given my experience of improvement of PF with Jade, and, after the first week of the current Jade trial which is beginning already to show promising results, I personally couldn't recommend anything better. I will be posting these results here in a few days when I get all the responses back. You also might like to look at my website for more information. It is http://www.wire.net.au/~jastmi/default.html

Re: PF and autoimmunity

john h on 6/22/01 at 09:32 (051233)

there is probably few herbal remedies that some of us have not tried. among other things i tried emu oil, australian eyucalyptus oil, and a host of herbal suppliments. some people report success. none have worked for me. i am currently trying the Jade Balm. Dr Reynold's theory about an immune response seems as good a theory as others i have heard. I personally think that PF is not one specific disease but a problem caused by various things in each individual (nerve damage,inflamed fascia,age,over activity,over weight, torn fasica,high arch,flat feet,bad shoes) the list is endless. Various doctors disagree on where the pain generator is in PF. If we knew we could access it and perhaps cure us all. what will work for one of us will create pain in others so you must experiment and find what works for you. start with finding a caring and knowledgeable doctor. having bilaterial pf i find when one foot gets better/worse the other foot does the same! why is this? other experience the same phenomena. some days the feet will get worse for no apparent reason and some days will get better for no apparent reason. PF is indeed an enigma a mystery wrapped in a mystery.

Re: Jade 168 Balm - ESWT

JudyS on 6/22/01 at 11:30 (051255)

I thought about that also, Scott, as I was considering ordering the Balm. But I decided it was more important to keep the ESWT treatment isolated for the time being. Besides, I'm not sure that it's wise to order and pay money for the product until we've heard from our guinea pigs here....