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To Elliott

Posted by Julie on 8/15/01 at 02:10 (056772)

Elliott

I'm going to start a new thread. The 'conservative treatment/obesity/etc one is getting out of hand.

Thank you for the compliment about the elegance of my writing. I'm a writer, and so I take as much care over my posts as I do about my books and articles. That's why they take me so long. They'd be shorter if I took longer over them, but time does run out, and there are other things to do.

No, there is not that much difference between the 1966 and 1976 editions of 'Light on Yoga': Mr Iyengar's 'mellowing' has mostly happened over the last ten years or so, I believe.

Do the postures he recommends 'work'? I'm not the best person to ask, since I'm not happy with the 'this posture is good for this ailment' approach. Yoga works holistically, and spinal problems need a comprehensive therapeutic approach. But I've already said that if Sirsasana is to relieve sciatica, it must do so by relieving compression on the intervertebral discs. You (and your teacher, to whom your questions should really be directed) have to be the judge of whether or not it is doing that. I would think it fairly unlikely. If your neck is sore after practice, and you said that it is, it means that you aren't lengthening and lifting sufficiently for there to be decompression throughout your spine. The pull of gravity is awfully strong, even when we're standing on our feet: much of asana practice is directed towards counteracting that pull, so that the body can open up for energy to flow.

I'm sorry if what I said offended you. I wrote what I did yesterday (though I wish now that I had not) because I was concerned about the real possibility of your injuring yourself in the headstand, not to argue with you about my understanding of yoga, or my approach to teaching it. I did not say you shouldn't be doing Ashtanga Yoga, only that you should probably not be doing the headstand yet. I know from all you've said about your history that your level of fitness is high and that a strong style of practice is on the whole all right for you. The discussion began with your asking me questions about myself and my experience: in responding, I assumed you were interested. Then, when when you told me what you were doing, I became concerned.

Discussions go on, and sometimes have a way of taking a confrontational, hurtful turn. I have been a good deal upset by the personal remarks in your post. You say I am too politically correct, too safe and reasonable, too conservative, and that I view everyone by the lowest common denominator. I hope these things aren't so, I don't think they are, but it makes me very uneasy. I did think I was 'friends with everyone', but the thought that others here who've read your post might agree with the things you've said about me makes me feel exposed, vulnerable, sad, and reluctant to carry on here.

The 'lowest common denominator' bit hurts most. In my year on the board I've spent very large amounts of time (and money: on-line time really costs on this side of the pond) trying to use my knowledge and experience to benefit others. I may not always have been right, but I've always thought carefully before responding to a post, and have tried to get whatever I say 'right' for that person and his or her situation.

As for 'undervaluing exercise', I have to laugh at that. It's a funny thing for someone who has taken exercise seriously all her life, and devoted herself to learning to teach it, and to teaching it, to be told. I don't undervalue exercise. But I am careful about discussing it, recommending it, or giving instructions for it, on paper or in cyberspace.

Julie

Re: Julie

Tammie on 8/15/01 at 09:56 (056783)

Julie,
I am not in the middle of this and not going to even get in volved but need to say this to u! Julie I think that you are a wonderful imformitive person and to lose you from this board would be terrible, and might stop all activity on board. I dont know what has hurt you, and I am sorry if you have hurt feelings, I personaly have been oversensitive at times myself do to many things going on in this whole visious circle of the feet. Please dont be sad and please dont think that your information is not important as it is you have so very much to offer. Although I myself know nothing about yoga or this types of exercise meditation, I find myself interested and reading all that you share among others. I to would rather take the safe road when exercising or doing things my body has not expieranced, and also with a foot or feet problems would rather someone start gentle then gung ho and be in worse shape then before. I think if any advice you offered would hurt someone , the Dr.s here which seem to think allot of you and your advice would say something. I have seen it before here. We are all trying for the same things and if we stick around and help each other it makes it easier to deal with in all ways, what works for me might not for u and visa versa to the whole board BUT, we may hear of new things to try or mention to our dr.s as they are human to , and it just helps knowing there are good friends to turn to when all is not going well! I might be way off track on my post as I really did not go back and read , but I just wanted you to hear that I appreciate you and do not fear what u may have to say or offer as advice as I have watched since March your posts and I know that u help very many people and most admire u and would be very sad if you stopped contributing to this area! My motto is better safe then sorry. But then sometimes lol I forget to listen to it hehehe! I to am human! Please Julie have a wonderful day and do not feel sad, You have made me feel better on more then one occasion and it might have not even been a direct note to me,knowing you are here is a nice warm thought! (((((((((Hugs)))))))))) And may you feel the sunshine and love in your heart always!

Re: To Julie

elliott on 8/15/01 at 10:12 (056786)

I was content for our discussion to continue buried pages deep with hopefully no one else interested in reading it (or is this a hot contuing saga which everyone here can't get enough of :-)); starting a new thread brings it all out to the forefront.

If Iyengar mellowed only as he got much older, that is to be expected. I'll add that we are following the book's advice to have more or less mastered the basic set of poses before attempting the headstand. His description of beginners attempting it does not match yours of how long to wait before doing so. That said, I am extremely grateful for your warnings of potential neck and nerve damage that I am going to use a person or distant wall until I am completely confident, as somersaulting over is not pleasant. When my neck is sore, it's only from going over and landing, not at all from the pose itself, which I feel does lengthen the back after the initial contraction. I agree going over is dangerous. My instructor (someone who got a lot of pain relief in yoga himself and is great at explaining how to get into and maintain the poses, but is not a know-it-all and hasn't been doing it that long by your standards) himself said that the headstand should be part of a healthy package of poses, so I am going to tone down as to how often I try it. I did achieve my goal over the summer of being able to do it. We resume in mid-September so I will have further guidance then. (BTW, my class of 4 or 5 [there seems to be periodically one floating member who joins and shortly thereafter drops out] includes a female triathlon winner, a female cyclist who placed second in our state's time trials two years ago, and measly me--nothing but a few age group medals in road races, but, not being really gifted, I'm proud of my accomplishments and surprised at how far I took my uncoordinated body. Most of us have run, cycled, lifted weights. (I for one am not an exercise junkie as some of the others; I just loved running so much and the other things were supplemental to aid the running.) There's also a woman of 50-ish who, if less athletic, is agile and super-motivated and can do some poses better than any of us. We all get along very well, and know a good thing when we see it. There was another female runner with serious case of PF, but I believe she dropped out. Strangely, I'm the only male right now, as the only other, who was very inflexible (hands a good 12 inches from the ground in reaching for his toes, but he never really tried stretching his hams outside of class either) dropped out before giving it long enough. Are most of your students female?

You did not offend me at all; not sure what you meant by that. You've been a good deal upset by my personal remarks? Not sure which ones, but lady, I think you're way too sensitive to let those remarks bother you. This forum is absolutely dead compared to others (running, cycling, etc.) I've visited and which are often too strong and offensive even for my taste. Not carry on because of me? I'll drop out first, then, if you like. I still think you're way too sensitive, and I don't think my last post needs an apology. Maybe Scott should include in his poll how sensitive people are here; I'm getting the impression that on average they're overly so. I don't want to offend anyone, honest, but I have a certain writing style just as you do, and I like to tell things the way I see it. Did you notice that many have now started talking about exercise and weight loss in part as a result of the blunter-than-usual obesity thread, whereas they didn't before? I contend that the too-careful language that was here before didn't get the message across, whereas the blunt approach did.

There's much pain and suffering here, we all have that in common, and we all feel for each other. No one wants to hurt others' feelings, even if that does happen. That doesn't mean that everyone will write in the same careful and, what I find, dull approach.

I like you, Julie, honestly. I've found this place to be very informative, if sometimes rather dull. This is just my writing style; perhaps some appreciate it, some not. I think it has some merit, I think I have some things to contribute here, and I am grateful for the advice and comments offered by others. Please don't fret over me. Do a headstand and forget about it. Let's move on.

Re: To Julie

JudyS on 8/15/01 at 12:15 (056792)

Elliot, I just have to say.....while you may find that this website is considerably less 'confrontational' than many you've seen, it's because many of us have worked hard and consistently to keep it so. So many of us have been robbed of our 'spirit' by long-term PF that we depend quite a bit on the supportive attitudes of the truly good people who post here. Confrontation is not needed here.....we are 'dull' by design - although that is not the word I would have chosen to describe the care provided by the members here. Last, we all already know what our own responsibilities are regarding our PF - be it overuse, wrong shoes, too much weight.....it doesn't matter. We're adults, we're bright, and no one here needs to force bluntness on us. Yes, many folks did respond to the thread regarding weight, but if you re-read those posts, most of them were in regard to the insensitive language used, not whether or not weight is a factor for PF victims.
Again, we are 'dull', and sensitive here by design. That design has helped MANY of us get through this trial.

Re: Tammie

Julie on 8/15/01 at 13:40 (056798)

Tammie, you're a honey. I 'm very grateful for what you said, and for your expression of real friendship, all the more because I know you've been in lots of pain today.

I was upset by the personal remarks in Elliott's post to me on the old thread. I felt they were judgemental and a little unkind (it's probably just the way he writes, but I'm not used to being talked to like that and I don't like it) and I didn't think they were deserved when I'd taken a good bit of time and trouble to try to be helpful to him. But what really bothered me, when I think about it now, was the fear that others here might think of me as he does. (You don't need to trawl back; what troubled me is clear in my post to him.)

But I don't think most people would agree with him, at least I hope not, and in any case I'm not upset any more, so please set your mind at rest. I HAVE had a wonderful day (it's brilliantly sunny here in England, and it's my day off so I've been in the garden) and I want you to know how much your kindness and appreciation mean to me.

If I were to leave the board, it wouldn't be because of something one individual said (though I might if I thought everyone whose friendship I value agreed with it) but because I would need to spend the time on other things, other responsibilities. That may happen: I do spend an awful lot of time here, and that does mean that I sometimes neglect things I shouldn't neglect (like talking to my husband!) But if I did leave, it would certainly not stop all activity on the board. Anyone's departure would be a loss; this board does not depend on one person, but on everyone, and on the care and kindness and compassion that everyone pours into it. People come and go: what matters is that those qualities, which depend on everyone, will continue to be valued and nurtured. The confrontational approach does nothing to contribute to that, and this is really what concerns me.

Tammie, I hope you have a good night tonight, and that your pain begins to go very very soon. Thank you again.

My very best to you,

Julie

Re: to julie

nancy s. on 8/15/01 at 16:24 (056816)

julie, i just want to pop in here and say a few things:
you aren't 'way too sensitive,lady' -- elliott's remarks were insensitive and unkind and uncalled for. as you know, there have been others in the past who chose to 'tell it like i see it' without much regard for others, and i think that category of people gets enjoyment out of supposedly innocently knocking someone in order to get a fire started so life won't be 'dull' for _them_.
if their lives are dull, i feel sorry for them.
fortunately, this site has not been a playground for too many such folks.
this board is many things, but dull it is not. it's by far the most informative and educational pf site on the web (which you play a huge and important role in!); it's full of bright and sensitive and compassionate people; it demonstrates all kinds of humor and subtle wit, which i adore.
to avoid purposely hurting people is not being overly 'pc'; it has been a human value for centuries. pc can be carried too far -- but going all out to avoid being pc is, i believe, sometimes an excuse some people use so they don't have to bother with courtesies and because it's fun for them to say whatever comes into their heads and poke someone. and it draws attention, which some people crave.
you have contributed to this board an immeasurable amount of good information related not only to feet but to general health and spiritual well=being, and at the same time done it with wise caution -- a hard combo to accomplish, but you accomplish it. perhaps there are some people who can't appreciate that and are unable to see the value in it -- but i think they're few and far between. more people here have learned a tremendous amount from you, and your efforts and friendship are high up on my list of things to cheer about.
nancy

Re: Tammie

Laurie R on 8/15/01 at 16:27 (056817)

Dearest Julie,
I have to second everything that Tammie has said. I just want you to know how I feel about you ... I think you are so wonderful to spend the time you do here. You have helped so many people including myself. You have so much to share and you are ALWAYS so positive . And you are always willing to help anyone that needs it ... I and we appreciate you so much..

I know that sometimes words do come out wrong and things are said on the boards that are not ment to hurt. But I think the best thing to do is don't let it get to you.

To me this is how I feel , you are our board Angel ....We need you ....

Much love sweet lady ,Laurie R

Re: To Elliott

Julie on 8/15/01 at 16:42 (056821)

Elliott

I think I was clear about what upset me in your post, and I won't repeat myself. Your personal remarks about my being 'too' this and 'too' that were not kind. Your statement about my undervaluing of exercise and my viewing everyone by the lowest common denominator were incorrect, and undeserved. Your telling me now that the 'careful' approach (which in your view I exemplify) is 'dull', is a severe judgement with worrying implications for this board.

If it's just your 'writing style', as you say, and if you don't realize how it might wound the person you're speaking to, and if you don't think you need to apologize, that's all right. I didn't expect an apology, I don't need one.

But it wasn't nice of you, and 'Be Nice' is the one and only rule on this forum. Comparing it with other forums, which thrive on confrontation and where 'Be Nice' is not a principle, is irrelevant. 'Be Nice' is the foundation of this one, and confrontation is destructive. This, not my personal feelings, which cleared after a couple of hours (I am not too sensitive, I am a tough lady) is my real concern.

You may find this forum dull, and dead, and you're entitled to that view. Perhaps you're trying to light a fire under it, ginger it up a bit? I suspect that may be so, and that this is why you began an argument with me about exercise (in which you have quite missed the point of where I'm coming from).

But this forum is not dead. What it is is a safe place, a place of support and healing for people in pain. (You've had a good bit of support yourself in the short time you've been here, so you know what I mean.) The thoughtfulness, care, and compassion given by the people on it, whether they are sharing information, knowledge, or experience, or giving emotional support, are what keep it safe. It has taken time and effort to build this, and it needs to be taken care of, carefully maintained and nurtured, if it is to stay safe.

I feel responsible towards the board and the people on it. If I didn't I would have left six months ago, when my PF cleared. I stayed, although I no longer 'need' to, because heelspurs.com was a help to me when I needed help. Since then I have tried to be a part of its helpfulness to those who come here, and to play my part in nurturing it.

You do have much to contribute here, as you say. Your knowledge of TTS seems to be streets ahead of anyone else's, apart from the doctors' and Wendy's. But what you call the 'blunt' approach has been hurtful to some people in the last few days, particularly over the obesity issue. Those people would probably call it cruel. Some of them may not return because of it.

Confrontation isn't necessary here, and can be very harmful. Judy has said all I would want to say about that; particularly about the nature of most of the posts, so I will add only that exercise and weight loss have always been amongst the topics discussed here: you haven't really been around long enough to know.

This is already too long, but I do want to clear up any misunderstanding about my views on exercise. Whatever I've said about exercise on the board has always been geared to the person asking, and to such knowledge as I have of that person, just as my teaching is always based on observation of my students. (My classes are quite hard work, incidentally, though the teaching comes from a different tradition than the one you are learning in, and the ratio of women to men is about 3:1. A soft option it isn't.)

So to people in the early stages of PF, or to those whose pain has been exacerbated by the wall stretches, I've counselled caution and suggested non-weight-bearing alternatives. To you, to others, I've said something quite different. And I totally share Alan K's view that there comes a point when we need to start moving forward, and that means taking some risks. That's what I have done myself: I started hill walking as soon as I could, which was before I 'knew' I could. It worked, it restored my confidence, and I was thus able to leave behind me the early-stage timorousness about every step, which could easily have become habitual.

To anyone, I would always say, be guided by the messages your body gives you. Especially when injured tissues are involved, pain is a signal to stop doing whatever is causing the pain. With few exceptions, it always is: that applies whether one is doing simple ankle rotations or Hanumasana.

I'm truly glad that you've found a style of yoga that you are happy with. I'm sure you will continue to enjoy it, and that it will continue to help you. You may find that it helps you in more ways than you can now foresee. I hope you do.

Julie

Re: to Nancy and Laurie

Julie on 8/15/01 at 16:52 (056822)

Thank you both so much! I logged on to submit my post to Elliott (which I'd written off line to save myself some money!) and there were your messages. I am so grateful to you both for the wonderful things you've said. I feel very moved, almost in tears, speechless, really, and can't say any more than that right now.

I will now go to bed and sleep peacefully and happily.

Thank you! And much, much love,

Julie

Re: Elliott - Read this

Scott R on 8/15/01 at 17:34 (056825)

Elliott, I don't know how long you've been in the message board, but if I foul someone 3 times they don't have permission to post anymore and they can be blocked from posting (in most cases). I myself have one foul for being mean recently. If people are too sensitive here, then I recommend that the topic be dropped rght away and postive stuff be sought. Above all, the topic should be heel pain and only heel pain (with the obvious exceptions). Since I'm too busy to read everything this week, I'm going to let those who have been here a long time decide who gets a foul. NO ONE RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. THE TOPIC IS HEEL PAIN, NOT HEELSPURS.COM, NOT THE MESSAGE BOARD. THE MESSAGE BOARD IS A MEANS TO AN END, NOT AN END TO ITSELF.

Re: elliot not obesity criminal

Scott R on 8/15/01 at 17:39 (056826)

Hey, hey, I didn't see hardly an unkind word from elliott about the obesity stuff, that was all me, so don't be bad-mouthing elliot about that unless you first bad-mouth me (which you can do without fear of a foul). But let's get on with heel pain, please. I'll be leaving for chicago in a few hours.

Re: To Elliott and Julie

ellen w on 8/15/01 at 17:54 (056827)

I felt a knot in my stomach when I read this exchange. It echoed something that happened to me on this board several months ago, when there were a number of negative posts to someone attempting to market a product, and I posted a reminder that Scott's 'prime directive' was that we should all be nice to each other. I got trashed by one particularly negative poster who took this personally (as she probably should have); when Judy S. wrote a supportive note, she in turn had a post directed to her that was 10 times more abusive.

I remember feeling hurt, offended, puzzled, greatly grateful to Judy and mortified that she was abused because of something that I had posted.

Since that time, I have attempted to make my posts primarily neutral in tone and informational, as well as friendly.

Elliott, I think that this is what we should all strive for. Up to this point, your posts have been great. I especially appreciated a point you made weeks ago about how carrying one's self with good posture can make a difference in gait. So please stay with the board. Just remember that words can hurt, even if you don't intend them to. (And that you're dealing with an audience of cherry juice drinking/Birkenstock wearing/granola eaters!)

Julie, I think of you as the heart and soul of this board. Unfailingly kind, welcoming, and thoughtful in all your responses. I print out a lot of your posts and keep them for reference, as I am sure many others do. And I have enjoyed your comments about life in England and the world in general.

ellen

Re: To Elliott and Julie

Lori R on 8/15/01 at 19:56 (056841)

I don't post here often although I do regularly read everyone else's messages. All I want to say is I appreciate BOTH of you. Athough you both have very different writting styles, sensitivity levels and exercise styles, you BOTH have a wealth of knowledge and I sincerely hope you both continue posting your advice, opinions and ideas.

Let's all go to sleep and dream of happy pain free feet and wake up in the morning with no recollection of the past threads!

Re: To Elliott and Julie

tammie on 8/15/01 at 20:46 (056847)

Amen to this I agree! Well said Lori Thanks

Re: To Julie

john h on 8/16/01 at 09:58 (056890)

elliot: as a former combat pilot i can be very direct and very forward and very blunt. i have been shot, shot down, and by training get quickly and truthfully to the point. i flew every mission expecting to come back alive and i would not appreciated the bluntness or truth of someone saying to me 'hey buddy this is dangerous and you may not make it back today'! there is a place for blutness and the blutness of truth in this life but i think compassion and information and understanding is the way on this board. people are dealing with enough hurt and emotional pain without dealing with the bluntness of some truths.

Re: To Elliott and Julie

john h on 8/17/01 at 16:18 (057014)

lori r: i like your post about dreaming of pain free feet. our board has evolved into a goup people who are very protective of each other. i often see the terms 'sisterhood','brotherhood', etc. people with the common denominator of pain circle the wagons and we have inadvertantly formed some sort of bond with each other. most people outside our circle do not understand our pain and the terrible problems it creates for us. when you come to heelspurs you have probably become a member. dream of happy pain free feet lori. there are a lot of caring people here who offer up their time and expertise who are probably well enough to move on. we need those people.

Re: Julie

Tammie on 8/15/01 at 09:56 (056783)

Julie,
I am not in the middle of this and not going to even get in volved but need to say this to u! Julie I think that you are a wonderful imformitive person and to lose you from this board would be terrible, and might stop all activity on board. I dont know what has hurt you, and I am sorry if you have hurt feelings, I personaly have been oversensitive at times myself do to many things going on in this whole visious circle of the feet. Please dont be sad and please dont think that your information is not important as it is you have so very much to offer. Although I myself know nothing about yoga or this types of exercise meditation, I find myself interested and reading all that you share among others. I to would rather take the safe road when exercising or doing things my body has not expieranced, and also with a foot or feet problems would rather someone start gentle then gung ho and be in worse shape then before. I think if any advice you offered would hurt someone , the Dr.s here which seem to think allot of you and your advice would say something. I have seen it before here. We are all trying for the same things and if we stick around and help each other it makes it easier to deal with in all ways, what works for me might not for u and visa versa to the whole board BUT, we may hear of new things to try or mention to our dr.s as they are human to , and it just helps knowing there are good friends to turn to when all is not going well! I might be way off track on my post as I really did not go back and read , but I just wanted you to hear that I appreciate you and do not fear what u may have to say or offer as advice as I have watched since March your posts and I know that u help very many people and most admire u and would be very sad if you stopped contributing to this area! My motto is better safe then sorry. But then sometimes lol I forget to listen to it hehehe! I to am human! Please Julie have a wonderful day and do not feel sad, You have made me feel better on more then one occasion and it might have not even been a direct note to me,knowing you are here is a nice warm thought! (((((((((Hugs)))))))))) And may you feel the sunshine and love in your heart always!

Re: To Julie

elliott on 8/15/01 at 10:12 (056786)

I was content for our discussion to continue buried pages deep with hopefully no one else interested in reading it (or is this a hot contuing saga which everyone here can't get enough of :-)); starting a new thread brings it all out to the forefront.

If Iyengar mellowed only as he got much older, that is to be expected. I'll add that we are following the book's advice to have more or less mastered the basic set of poses before attempting the headstand. His description of beginners attempting it does not match yours of how long to wait before doing so. That said, I am extremely grateful for your warnings of potential neck and nerve damage that I am going to use a person or distant wall until I am completely confident, as somersaulting over is not pleasant. When my neck is sore, it's only from going over and landing, not at all from the pose itself, which I feel does lengthen the back after the initial contraction. I agree going over is dangerous. My instructor (someone who got a lot of pain relief in yoga himself and is great at explaining how to get into and maintain the poses, but is not a know-it-all and hasn't been doing it that long by your standards) himself said that the headstand should be part of a healthy package of poses, so I am going to tone down as to how often I try it. I did achieve my goal over the summer of being able to do it. We resume in mid-September so I will have further guidance then. (BTW, my class of 4 or 5 [there seems to be periodically one floating member who joins and shortly thereafter drops out] includes a female triathlon winner, a female cyclist who placed second in our state's time trials two years ago, and measly me--nothing but a few age group medals in road races, but, not being really gifted, I'm proud of my accomplishments and surprised at how far I took my uncoordinated body. Most of us have run, cycled, lifted weights. (I for one am not an exercise junkie as some of the others; I just loved running so much and the other things were supplemental to aid the running.) There's also a woman of 50-ish who, if less athletic, is agile and super-motivated and can do some poses better than any of us. We all get along very well, and know a good thing when we see it. There was another female runner with serious case of PF, but I believe she dropped out. Strangely, I'm the only male right now, as the only other, who was very inflexible (hands a good 12 inches from the ground in reaching for his toes, but he never really tried stretching his hams outside of class either) dropped out before giving it long enough. Are most of your students female?

You did not offend me at all; not sure what you meant by that. You've been a good deal upset by my personal remarks? Not sure which ones, but lady, I think you're way too sensitive to let those remarks bother you. This forum is absolutely dead compared to others (running, cycling, etc.) I've visited and which are often too strong and offensive even for my taste. Not carry on because of me? I'll drop out first, then, if you like. I still think you're way too sensitive, and I don't think my last post needs an apology. Maybe Scott should include in his poll how sensitive people are here; I'm getting the impression that on average they're overly so. I don't want to offend anyone, honest, but I have a certain writing style just as you do, and I like to tell things the way I see it. Did you notice that many have now started talking about exercise and weight loss in part as a result of the blunter-than-usual obesity thread, whereas they didn't before? I contend that the too-careful language that was here before didn't get the message across, whereas the blunt approach did.

There's much pain and suffering here, we all have that in common, and we all feel for each other. No one wants to hurt others' feelings, even if that does happen. That doesn't mean that everyone will write in the same careful and, what I find, dull approach.

I like you, Julie, honestly. I've found this place to be very informative, if sometimes rather dull. This is just my writing style; perhaps some appreciate it, some not. I think it has some merit, I think I have some things to contribute here, and I am grateful for the advice and comments offered by others. Please don't fret over me. Do a headstand and forget about it. Let's move on.

Re: To Julie

JudyS on 8/15/01 at 12:15 (056792)

Elliot, I just have to say.....while you may find that this website is considerably less 'confrontational' than many you've seen, it's because many of us have worked hard and consistently to keep it so. So many of us have been robbed of our 'spirit' by long-term PF that we depend quite a bit on the supportive attitudes of the truly good people who post here. Confrontation is not needed here.....we are 'dull' by design - although that is not the word I would have chosen to describe the care provided by the members here. Last, we all already know what our own responsibilities are regarding our PF - be it overuse, wrong shoes, too much weight.....it doesn't matter. We're adults, we're bright, and no one here needs to force bluntness on us. Yes, many folks did respond to the thread regarding weight, but if you re-read those posts, most of them were in regard to the insensitive language used, not whether or not weight is a factor for PF victims.
Again, we are 'dull', and sensitive here by design. That design has helped MANY of us get through this trial.

Re: Tammie

Julie on 8/15/01 at 13:40 (056798)

Tammie, you're a honey. I 'm very grateful for what you said, and for your expression of real friendship, all the more because I know you've been in lots of pain today.

I was upset by the personal remarks in Elliott's post to me on the old thread. I felt they were judgemental and a little unkind (it's probably just the way he writes, but I'm not used to being talked to like that and I don't like it) and I didn't think they were deserved when I'd taken a good bit of time and trouble to try to be helpful to him. But what really bothered me, when I think about it now, was the fear that others here might think of me as he does. (You don't need to trawl back; what troubled me is clear in my post to him.)

But I don't think most people would agree with him, at least I hope not, and in any case I'm not upset any more, so please set your mind at rest. I HAVE had a wonderful day (it's brilliantly sunny here in England, and it's my day off so I've been in the garden) and I want you to know how much your kindness and appreciation mean to me.

If I were to leave the board, it wouldn't be because of something one individual said (though I might if I thought everyone whose friendship I value agreed with it) but because I would need to spend the time on other things, other responsibilities. That may happen: I do spend an awful lot of time here, and that does mean that I sometimes neglect things I shouldn't neglect (like talking to my husband!) But if I did leave, it would certainly not stop all activity on the board. Anyone's departure would be a loss; this board does not depend on one person, but on everyone, and on the care and kindness and compassion that everyone pours into it. People come and go: what matters is that those qualities, which depend on everyone, will continue to be valued and nurtured. The confrontational approach does nothing to contribute to that, and this is really what concerns me.

Tammie, I hope you have a good night tonight, and that your pain begins to go very very soon. Thank you again.

My very best to you,

Julie

Re: to julie

nancy s. on 8/15/01 at 16:24 (056816)

julie, i just want to pop in here and say a few things:
you aren't 'way too sensitive,lady' -- elliott's remarks were insensitive and unkind and uncalled for. as you know, there have been others in the past who chose to 'tell it like i see it' without much regard for others, and i think that category of people gets enjoyment out of supposedly innocently knocking someone in order to get a fire started so life won't be 'dull' for _them_.
if their lives are dull, i feel sorry for them.
fortunately, this site has not been a playground for too many such folks.
this board is many things, but dull it is not. it's by far the most informative and educational pf site on the web (which you play a huge and important role in!); it's full of bright and sensitive and compassionate people; it demonstrates all kinds of humor and subtle wit, which i adore.
to avoid purposely hurting people is not being overly 'pc'; it has been a human value for centuries. pc can be carried too far -- but going all out to avoid being pc is, i believe, sometimes an excuse some people use so they don't have to bother with courtesies and because it's fun for them to say whatever comes into their heads and poke someone. and it draws attention, which some people crave.
you have contributed to this board an immeasurable amount of good information related not only to feet but to general health and spiritual well=being, and at the same time done it with wise caution -- a hard combo to accomplish, but you accomplish it. perhaps there are some people who can't appreciate that and are unable to see the value in it -- but i think they're few and far between. more people here have learned a tremendous amount from you, and your efforts and friendship are high up on my list of things to cheer about.
nancy

Re: Tammie

Laurie R on 8/15/01 at 16:27 (056817)

Dearest Julie,
I have to second everything that Tammie has said. I just want you to know how I feel about you ... I think you are so wonderful to spend the time you do here. You have helped so many people including myself. You have so much to share and you are ALWAYS so positive . And you are always willing to help anyone that needs it ... I and we appreciate you so much..

I know that sometimes words do come out wrong and things are said on the boards that are not ment to hurt. But I think the best thing to do is don't let it get to you.

To me this is how I feel , you are our board Angel ....We need you ....

Much love sweet lady ,Laurie R

Re: To Elliott

Julie on 8/15/01 at 16:42 (056821)

Elliott

I think I was clear about what upset me in your post, and I won't repeat myself. Your personal remarks about my being 'too' this and 'too' that were not kind. Your statement about my undervaluing of exercise and my viewing everyone by the lowest common denominator were incorrect, and undeserved. Your telling me now that the 'careful' approach (which in your view I exemplify) is 'dull', is a severe judgement with worrying implications for this board.

If it's just your 'writing style', as you say, and if you don't realize how it might wound the person you're speaking to, and if you don't think you need to apologize, that's all right. I didn't expect an apology, I don't need one.

But it wasn't nice of you, and 'Be Nice' is the one and only rule on this forum. Comparing it with other forums, which thrive on confrontation and where 'Be Nice' is not a principle, is irrelevant. 'Be Nice' is the foundation of this one, and confrontation is destructive. This, not my personal feelings, which cleared after a couple of hours (I am not too sensitive, I am a tough lady) is my real concern.

You may find this forum dull, and dead, and you're entitled to that view. Perhaps you're trying to light a fire under it, ginger it up a bit? I suspect that may be so, and that this is why you began an argument with me about exercise (in which you have quite missed the point of where I'm coming from).

But this forum is not dead. What it is is a safe place, a place of support and healing for people in pain. (You've had a good bit of support yourself in the short time you've been here, so you know what I mean.) The thoughtfulness, care, and compassion given by the people on it, whether they are sharing information, knowledge, or experience, or giving emotional support, are what keep it safe. It has taken time and effort to build this, and it needs to be taken care of, carefully maintained and nurtured, if it is to stay safe.

I feel responsible towards the board and the people on it. If I didn't I would have left six months ago, when my PF cleared. I stayed, although I no longer 'need' to, because heelspurs.com was a help to me when I needed help. Since then I have tried to be a part of its helpfulness to those who come here, and to play my part in nurturing it.

You do have much to contribute here, as you say. Your knowledge of TTS seems to be streets ahead of anyone else's, apart from the doctors' and Wendy's. But what you call the 'blunt' approach has been hurtful to some people in the last few days, particularly over the obesity issue. Those people would probably call it cruel. Some of them may not return because of it.

Confrontation isn't necessary here, and can be very harmful. Judy has said all I would want to say about that; particularly about the nature of most of the posts, so I will add only that exercise and weight loss have always been amongst the topics discussed here: you haven't really been around long enough to know.

This is already too long, but I do want to clear up any misunderstanding about my views on exercise. Whatever I've said about exercise on the board has always been geared to the person asking, and to such knowledge as I have of that person, just as my teaching is always based on observation of my students. (My classes are quite hard work, incidentally, though the teaching comes from a different tradition than the one you are learning in, and the ratio of women to men is about 3:1. A soft option it isn't.)

So to people in the early stages of PF, or to those whose pain has been exacerbated by the wall stretches, I've counselled caution and suggested non-weight-bearing alternatives. To you, to others, I've said something quite different. And I totally share Alan K's view that there comes a point when we need to start moving forward, and that means taking some risks. That's what I have done myself: I started hill walking as soon as I could, which was before I 'knew' I could. It worked, it restored my confidence, and I was thus able to leave behind me the early-stage timorousness about every step, which could easily have become habitual.

To anyone, I would always say, be guided by the messages your body gives you. Especially when injured tissues are involved, pain is a signal to stop doing whatever is causing the pain. With few exceptions, it always is: that applies whether one is doing simple ankle rotations or Hanumasana.

I'm truly glad that you've found a style of yoga that you are happy with. I'm sure you will continue to enjoy it, and that it will continue to help you. You may find that it helps you in more ways than you can now foresee. I hope you do.

Julie

Re: to Nancy and Laurie

Julie on 8/15/01 at 16:52 (056822)

Thank you both so much! I logged on to submit my post to Elliott (which I'd written off line to save myself some money!) and there were your messages. I am so grateful to you both for the wonderful things you've said. I feel very moved, almost in tears, speechless, really, and can't say any more than that right now.

I will now go to bed and sleep peacefully and happily.

Thank you! And much, much love,

Julie

Re: Elliott - Read this

Scott R on 8/15/01 at 17:34 (056825)

Elliott, I don't know how long you've been in the message board, but if I foul someone 3 times they don't have permission to post anymore and they can be blocked from posting (in most cases). I myself have one foul for being mean recently. If people are too sensitive here, then I recommend that the topic be dropped rght away and postive stuff be sought. Above all, the topic should be heel pain and only heel pain (with the obvious exceptions). Since I'm too busy to read everything this week, I'm going to let those who have been here a long time decide who gets a foul. NO ONE RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. THE TOPIC IS HEEL PAIN, NOT HEELSPURS.COM, NOT THE MESSAGE BOARD. THE MESSAGE BOARD IS A MEANS TO AN END, NOT AN END TO ITSELF.

Re: elliot not obesity criminal

Scott R on 8/15/01 at 17:39 (056826)

Hey, hey, I didn't see hardly an unkind word from elliott about the obesity stuff, that was all me, so don't be bad-mouthing elliot about that unless you first bad-mouth me (which you can do without fear of a foul). But let's get on with heel pain, please. I'll be leaving for chicago in a few hours.

Re: To Elliott and Julie

ellen w on 8/15/01 at 17:54 (056827)

I felt a knot in my stomach when I read this exchange. It echoed something that happened to me on this board several months ago, when there were a number of negative posts to someone attempting to market a product, and I posted a reminder that Scott's 'prime directive' was that we should all be nice to each other. I got trashed by one particularly negative poster who took this personally (as she probably should have); when Judy S. wrote a supportive note, she in turn had a post directed to her that was 10 times more abusive.

I remember feeling hurt, offended, puzzled, greatly grateful to Judy and mortified that she was abused because of something that I had posted.

Since that time, I have attempted to make my posts primarily neutral in tone and informational, as well as friendly.

Elliott, I think that this is what we should all strive for. Up to this point, your posts have been great. I especially appreciated a point you made weeks ago about how carrying one's self with good posture can make a difference in gait. So please stay with the board. Just remember that words can hurt, even if you don't intend them to. (And that you're dealing with an audience of cherry juice drinking/Birkenstock wearing/granola eaters!)

Julie, I think of you as the heart and soul of this board. Unfailingly kind, welcoming, and thoughtful in all your responses. I print out a lot of your posts and keep them for reference, as I am sure many others do. And I have enjoyed your comments about life in England and the world in general.

ellen

Re: To Elliott and Julie

Lori R on 8/15/01 at 19:56 (056841)

I don't post here often although I do regularly read everyone else's messages. All I want to say is I appreciate BOTH of you. Athough you both have very different writting styles, sensitivity levels and exercise styles, you BOTH have a wealth of knowledge and I sincerely hope you both continue posting your advice, opinions and ideas.

Let's all go to sleep and dream of happy pain free feet and wake up in the morning with no recollection of the past threads!

Re: To Elliott and Julie

tammie on 8/15/01 at 20:46 (056847)

Amen to this I agree! Well said Lori Thanks

Re: To Julie

john h on 8/16/01 at 09:58 (056890)

elliot: as a former combat pilot i can be very direct and very forward and very blunt. i have been shot, shot down, and by training get quickly and truthfully to the point. i flew every mission expecting to come back alive and i would not appreciated the bluntness or truth of someone saying to me 'hey buddy this is dangerous and you may not make it back today'! there is a place for blutness and the blutness of truth in this life but i think compassion and information and understanding is the way on this board. people are dealing with enough hurt and emotional pain without dealing with the bluntness of some truths.

Re: To Elliott and Julie

john h on 8/17/01 at 16:18 (057014)

lori r: i like your post about dreaming of pain free feet. our board has evolved into a goup people who are very protective of each other. i often see the terms 'sisterhood','brotherhood', etc. people with the common denominator of pain circle the wagons and we have inadvertantly formed some sort of bond with each other. most people outside our circle do not understand our pain and the terrible problems it creates for us. when you come to heelspurs you have probably become a member. dream of happy pain free feet lori. there are a lot of caring people here who offer up their time and expertise who are probably well enough to move on. we need those people.