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Laser Treatment.

Posted by Ray W on 8/18/01 at 17:57 (057114)

Has anyone tried it?

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/20/01 at 12:48 (057273)

No. There is no established laser treatment for heel pain.
Ed

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/20/01 at 14:28 (057288)

Well I've had some.
The basis of it id to relatively painlesly burn away scar tissue and increase blood flow as an aid to the healing process.
Some small degree of success I have had but it seems the orthotics I've been using have been the exact opposite to that which I need. As a result I have been re injuring my feet on every step.
I will try the laser again once the new orthotics have had a chance to work.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/20/01 at 16:45 (057308)

Where are you getting this treatment? There are places in Canada that use a cold laser. Is this what you are talking about. Please let us know how and the where

Re: Laser Treatment.

CatherineL on 8/20/01 at 16:48 (057309)

Hi Ray,

I've had laser, one of the very few on this site, it seems.

I went through 8 session of 7minutes on each foot. After the first couple of sessions, I had some relief in the way of tingling in my foot instead of pain. After a few more treatments I was at about 80%.

I stopped the treatments for about a month and after a couple of weeks into this, I was right back to square one. Ive gone for more treatments that have helped somewhat, but I can't go twice a week for the rest of my life.

If I can get the pain under control with the new orthotics, etc., maybe I'll give it a try again.

I thought it was quite wonderful, since there was no pain during treatmtne and it actually helped, which after 15 months of almost no relief, was quite something for me.

Hope this helps

Catherine

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/20/01 at 20:54 (057354)

The action of laser is related to the absorbtion in tissue of the particular wavelength emitted by the laser. Laser is monochromatic light, that is, light of only one wavelength. Certain tissues selectively absorb specific wavelengths of laser light and that is how lasers can be used to selectively destroy unwanted tissues.

I know of no laser in use, referring to the musculoskeletal area, that can selectively remove scar tissue without adversely affecting the adjacent heathy tissue and certainly not without pain.

I too, need to ask if you may be actually refering to a 'cold' laser.

All light burns including laser. A laser of very low power, insufficient to cut or burn tissue has been termed a 'cold' laser. Another version of this is sometimes termed 'photon therapy' in which light is used to 'heal.'
This is on the margins of alternative medicine--there really is no proof that it works other than some anecdotal evidence. I am not making a critique or judgement call because there are a number of people who seemed to be helped by treatments based on concepts outside the scope of Western medicine.
Ed

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:33 (057600)

I'm in Ireland.
The surgeon mainly deals with things such as cosmetic surgery, varicose veins, ulsers but also with injuries such as tennis elbow and other areas where the blood supply restricts the flow of blood or in the case of PF where there is scar tissue that prevents the muscles of the foot acting independantly as they should but rather all together in one mass in an impropper manner, hence constantly injuring the area.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:41 (057605)

The treatments I got were like a 'gun' shooting into my foot, although not much pain.
It was a case of one treatment every 4 weeks.
The aim was to break down scar tissue and aid in the self healing process.
HOWEVER......at the time I didn't know what I know now.
I had the exact opposite orthotics that I should have had.
I have very high arches and the ball of my foot was pushing down to try to reach the ground.
The orthotics I had were increasing this effect and causing more supination. The ones I got on monday of this week are the opposite and may well help.
I do think it will be a combination of treatments that will eventually work.
I am an ex rugby player and have had many injuries over the years and I am sure it is only a matter of finding the right treatment and then a bit of patients.
I will go back and try some more laser when these orthotics have a chance to do some work.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:56 (057606)

Yes there was pain, but a bit like a sharp needle without the lasting pain.

I am a Physics teacher and fully understand the principle of laser.
I am informed that the frequency that scar tissue resonates at is different to that of soft tissue or even bone and it is for this reason that the laser is of use. It 'selectively' burns holes or lines in the scar tissue allowing more flow of blood to remove the byproducts of injury and bring fresh blood with the precursors of healing. It also breaks up the singhe mass of muscle into the many different strands that should be able to work independantly and stabilise the foot.
I have seen anultrasound of my foot before and 4 weeks later and I do accept that there was more indication of blood flow.
The particular MD as far as I can find was the world developer of his techniques and I am led to believe that he lectures to other surgeons who travel here from all round the world. I know this is available in the US but I dont know where.
I'm wondering has anyone tried this since it seems that it MIGHT have an effect IF my orthotics were the correct ones.
The podiatrist I've been seeing recently is the leading expert here .......he lectures to others in our biggesy university.
He videos me walking to see the angles of contact my feet make with the ground.

I'm not trying to 'sell' the idea.
I don't claim it works, but it might.
I do believe the cure will be all the different things I'm trying.
I'm open to all new ideas.
I have had this for 4 years and know how it makes life HELL, so if it helps someone else then wonderful.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Kelly C on 9/04/01 at 11:13 (059003)

Thanks, Dr Davis, for an excellent overview of surgical vs. 'cold' lasers. I am also extremely skeptical of claims regarding 'cold' lasers. I design lasers, and have worked on several types of high-power surgical lasers, and also lasers used to measure blood flow.

There is simply NO conceivable mechanism by which a low power laser can provide therapy for something like PF. I lump such alternative medicine claims in the same category as magnetic therapy, which is quackery.

As far as a high-power laser treating scar tissue, through scar tissue 'resonating' at a different frequency than regular tissue--this is possible, but again has little support in actual laser/tissue interaction models. There is little difference between scar tissue and regular tissue, in the way they absorb light. Even cancer cells aren't drastically different, and need to be aided with a preferentially absorbed chemical if laser treatment is to kill only the cancer cells.

AFAIK, the only way a laser can be used to aid in PF is by using the laser as a tiny scalpel, allowing the surgeon to remove scar tissue in a very small area and with a small incision.

I would welcome any corrections, however.

-Kelly

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/20/01 at 12:48 (057273)

No. There is no established laser treatment for heel pain.
Ed

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/20/01 at 14:28 (057288)

Well I've had some.
The basis of it id to relatively painlesly burn away scar tissue and increase blood flow as an aid to the healing process.
Some small degree of success I have had but it seems the orthotics I've been using have been the exact opposite to that which I need. As a result I have been re injuring my feet on every step.
I will try the laser again once the new orthotics have had a chance to work.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/20/01 at 16:45 (057308)

Where are you getting this treatment? There are places in Canada that use a cold laser. Is this what you are talking about. Please let us know how and the where

Re: Laser Treatment.

CatherineL on 8/20/01 at 16:48 (057309)

Hi Ray,

I've had laser, one of the very few on this site, it seems.

I went through 8 session of 7minutes on each foot. After the first couple of sessions, I had some relief in the way of tingling in my foot instead of pain. After a few more treatments I was at about 80%.

I stopped the treatments for about a month and after a couple of weeks into this, I was right back to square one. Ive gone for more treatments that have helped somewhat, but I can't go twice a week for the rest of my life.

If I can get the pain under control with the new orthotics, etc., maybe I'll give it a try again.

I thought it was quite wonderful, since there was no pain during treatmtne and it actually helped, which after 15 months of almost no relief, was quite something for me.

Hope this helps

Catherine

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/20/01 at 20:54 (057354)

The action of laser is related to the absorbtion in tissue of the particular wavelength emitted by the laser. Laser is monochromatic light, that is, light of only one wavelength. Certain tissues selectively absorb specific wavelengths of laser light and that is how lasers can be used to selectively destroy unwanted tissues.

I know of no laser in use, referring to the musculoskeletal area, that can selectively remove scar tissue without adversely affecting the adjacent heathy tissue and certainly not without pain.

I too, need to ask if you may be actually refering to a 'cold' laser.

All light burns including laser. A laser of very low power, insufficient to cut or burn tissue has been termed a 'cold' laser. Another version of this is sometimes termed 'photon therapy' in which light is used to 'heal.'
This is on the margins of alternative medicine--there really is no proof that it works other than some anecdotal evidence. I am not making a critique or judgement call because there are a number of people who seemed to be helped by treatments based on concepts outside the scope of Western medicine.
Ed

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:33 (057600)

I'm in Ireland.
The surgeon mainly deals with things such as cosmetic surgery, varicose veins, ulsers but also with injuries such as tennis elbow and other areas where the blood supply restricts the flow of blood or in the case of PF where there is scar tissue that prevents the muscles of the foot acting independantly as they should but rather all together in one mass in an impropper manner, hence constantly injuring the area.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:41 (057605)

The treatments I got were like a 'gun' shooting into my foot, although not much pain.
It was a case of one treatment every 4 weeks.
The aim was to break down scar tissue and aid in the self healing process.
HOWEVER......at the time I didn't know what I know now.
I had the exact opposite orthotics that I should have had.
I have very high arches and the ball of my foot was pushing down to try to reach the ground.
The orthotics I had were increasing this effect and causing more supination. The ones I got on monday of this week are the opposite and may well help.
I do think it will be a combination of treatments that will eventually work.
I am an ex rugby player and have had many injuries over the years and I am sure it is only a matter of finding the right treatment and then a bit of patients.
I will go back and try some more laser when these orthotics have a chance to do some work.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Ray W on 8/22/01 at 17:56 (057606)

Yes there was pain, but a bit like a sharp needle without the lasting pain.

I am a Physics teacher and fully understand the principle of laser.
I am informed that the frequency that scar tissue resonates at is different to that of soft tissue or even bone and it is for this reason that the laser is of use. It 'selectively' burns holes or lines in the scar tissue allowing more flow of blood to remove the byproducts of injury and bring fresh blood with the precursors of healing. It also breaks up the singhe mass of muscle into the many different strands that should be able to work independantly and stabilise the foot.
I have seen anultrasound of my foot before and 4 weeks later and I do accept that there was more indication of blood flow.
The particular MD as far as I can find was the world developer of his techniques and I am led to believe that he lectures to other surgeons who travel here from all round the world. I know this is available in the US but I dont know where.
I'm wondering has anyone tried this since it seems that it MIGHT have an effect IF my orthotics were the correct ones.
The podiatrist I've been seeing recently is the leading expert here .......he lectures to others in our biggesy university.
He videos me walking to see the angles of contact my feet make with the ground.

I'm not trying to 'sell' the idea.
I don't claim it works, but it might.
I do believe the cure will be all the different things I'm trying.
I'm open to all new ideas.
I have had this for 4 years and know how it makes life HELL, so if it helps someone else then wonderful.

Re: Laser Treatment.

Kelly C on 9/04/01 at 11:13 (059003)

Thanks, Dr Davis, for an excellent overview of surgical vs. 'cold' lasers. I am also extremely skeptical of claims regarding 'cold' lasers. I design lasers, and have worked on several types of high-power surgical lasers, and also lasers used to measure blood flow.

There is simply NO conceivable mechanism by which a low power laser can provide therapy for something like PF. I lump such alternative medicine claims in the same category as magnetic therapy, which is quackery.

As far as a high-power laser treating scar tissue, through scar tissue 'resonating' at a different frequency than regular tissue--this is possible, but again has little support in actual laser/tissue interaction models. There is little difference between scar tissue and regular tissue, in the way they absorb light. Even cancer cells aren't drastically different, and need to be aided with a preferentially absorbed chemical if laser treatment is to kill only the cancer cells.

AFAIK, the only way a laser can be used to aid in PF is by using the laser as a tiny scalpel, allowing the surgeon to remove scar tissue in a very small area and with a small incision.

I would welcome any corrections, however.

-Kelly