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another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Posted by jeff on 9/11/01 at 21:36 (059934)

I have a large bag of unuseable orthotics, all custom made. My newest pair is made of the latest dense white flexible foam that has good density and seems to support the instep. However the orthotist, can't seem to understand that the valgus heel must be corrected while lifting the arch more. He has adjusted the supports once or twice and feels that is the end of his obligation. I have flat feet with valgus heels; I suffer night and day from plantar faciitis, leg cramps at night, hot feet and calves at night. I am very fatigued by the end of the day, and I am not too active (no running; I can't do it). I have been to podiatrists (mostly inept; one recently sold me a custom made orthotic that he swore would be better than anything I have had previously: practically flat, no heel correction. They were like orthotics I had 20 years ago but with new materials). He got fired from the hospital clinic where he taught/worked. It took an act of Congress to get my $$ back. Where are all the doctors with the equipment to analyze the foot in motion and then design a CORRECT orthotic? Shouldn't some sports medicine doctors be good at this stuff. How 'bout the ones who do work for the pro football teams. Those giants probably really have foot trouble.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Pauline on 9/12/01 at 08:07 (059949)

Hi Jeff,
Boy, you came to the right place to vent your frustrations. I think most of us have been right there with you. Although I know you are interested in finding the correct orthotics to solve your problems, I'm wondering if you are also trying all the other conservative treatments for Plantar Fasciitis.

Irregardless of having the 'correct' orthotic I think you may need to also incorporate the stretching, icing, massage, and physical therapy necessary to help loosen those tight muscles. Reading Scott's book will give you a place to start and understand the total picture of Plantar Fasciitis.

I know Julie has wonder information on stretching that might help with those leg cramps as well as the P.F.

Stick with us, this board is a place to vent, a place to get information, and a place to have your spirts lifted. Perhaps your thinking about your condition in too narrow a fashion and a combination program utalizing all conservative treatments might serve you better.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Pauline on 9/12/01 at 18:21 (060022)

Jeff,
Go to the 'Ask the Doctor' board and look at Carmen's thread titled
'Do you have this' Click on the web site she lists and go to it. Then click back to it's home page. You will see several articles to read.
Check out the two on orthotics. You may find them very interesting.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/12/01 at 22:17 (060060)

Where do you live? Occasionally we know qualified practitioners in various parts of the country.
Ed

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

terry n on 9/14/01 at 08:05 (060284)

dr. Ed-I too am suffering with horrid pain from plantar fascitis and I am told a very large heel spur. It has gotten to the point that I avoid walking as much as possible, as it is so painful. My pain in the heel extends along the outer side of my foot, and up the sides and lower back of my leg. I have orthotics-never go without them, but they are not much help. Arthrotec does not help the pain either. The best relief I get is when my husband massages and squeezes my foot. I am in heaven, as long as he doesn't touch a very tender and sensitive area on my heel. This is really interfering with my lifestyle. The pain wakes me up at night, and very frequently I can barely walk. The pain ranges from an aching type to sharp stabbing, burning, numbness and tingling and throbbing (I actually don't mind the last three-especially the throbbing,it feels kind of nice!)Nuts, buts thats the truth. In any case, sonething has got to be done, I can't go on like this much longer, plus standing like a flamingo on one foot to try to relieve the pain and pressure doesn't exactly look too normal. Do you know of someone in the Baltimore, Maryland area that would be competent and knowledgeable? The orthopedic surgeon that I consulted, really wasn't interested and did not help at all. I know that if I return to him, he will suggest a cortisone shot, and I don't think that is the answer or cure for my problems. Looking forward to your advice. Thanks in advance.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Richard, C.Ped on 9/14/01 at 08:38 (060293)

Wow,
that really angers me when someone feels that they are at the end of their obligation, as you said. Custom orthotics may need adjustment...plain and simple. It is the responsibility of the supplier to do so.

In my opinion, your foot type is the easiest to help. Many of the sports med doctors do not know much about orthotics. That is where we as C.Peds come in. They trust our judgement, and they know that we are able to help their patients by the feedback they receive. We also have the doctors in orthotics, so they know what the patients are using.

What part of the country do you live in?
Richard

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 11:33 (060314)

Terry:
Read this web site carefully as there is a wealth of information on your problem. I do not know anyone personally in your area--maybe Dr. Z does.
One good source is the web site http://www.acfas.org
Ed

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

terry n on 9/14/01 at 15:50 (060348)

Dr Ed, Thanks for the very prompt response. I will try what you suggested.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/16/01 at 01:06 (060538)

I live in Contra Costa County 45 minutes from San Francisco. Anyone you'd HIGHLY recommend here? My pod suggested orthotics and likes graphite and a semi ridgid orthotic. I know I want full length. He was going to cast me in a foam box but thanks to HS I knew I didn't want that. He said the box isn't the best casting method but he was trying to hurry. Since I will have to pay for these as I have $500.00 to go on my deductible and that is what they cost, I want to make sure that I do everthing I can to try to make them a good set. What is the best top layer? I know it has been posted here before. Is graphite good? Anything better? Thanks in advance for any help!

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

jeff on 9/16/01 at 01:30 (060540)

I have seen a few C. Peds, and Podiatrists. I even saw an orthopedic suregon who told me after taking a couple of x-rays: Well, I'm not an orthotics guy, surgery and physical therapy usually don't help too well... I was told by the last Pod. I saw, a teacher at a podiatric college in SFO that because my foot was so rigid, it was more difficult to treat.

My valgus heel causes strain on the back ligaments of the foot; my plantar facia is tight. My calf muscles are strong and when I relax I can feel the foot extending itself downward, with the toes pointing away. They are like this all night. I am better when I am moving, not standing, but by the end of the day, I have had it. Stretching, icing, and all that may work, HOWEVER, while the foot is working (during the day; walking, standing, etc.) if the foot is not in PROPER control in the shoe, then it is fatigued and under strain by the time you want to massage it.

The orthotics try and control the heel by lifting up slightly at the rear of the arch at the Calcaneous. This does not move the heel to a neutral position. Because the main downward pressure is toward the INSIDE of a central line down the foot, only through a correction of the heel, and a build up of the arch, TOGETHER, can the foot be controlled. I can't seem to get this across to the C. Peds. They seem to agree with the theory, but can't seem to fit an orthotic to match.

Right now my most recent expense (orthotics) are no different in comfort, than what I had when I went in.

I live in Monterey, CA. Please don't recommend the C. Ped here. There are also a couple of Pods. I wouldn't see again either. I might be willing to go to the San Jose - Santa Clara area, but it is 100 miles each way.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/16/01 at 03:08 (060548)

Lisa:

Why is your doc trying to hurry? It takes less than 5 minutes to do the foam box impressions but about 30 minutes to use plaster of paris, taking the mold of your foot while it is held in an optimal position. $500 sounds a bit steep, even steeper if you are getting a 'rushed' service. Does not sound good to me.

Graphite is a good material due to its thinness and lightness. What is really more important is the prescription---made from careful, patient measurements, good impression technique....
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/16/01 at 03:14 (060549)

Have you tried night splints? Sounds like you may have a need for them.

Who did you see at the podiatry school in SF? Is your heel in a fixed position of valgus or is it reducable to a more normal position? A Kirby skive is one means by which an othotic can provide better control of the calcaneus.

Consider seeing Dr. Paul Scherer at the pod school in SF. he runs a good orthotic lab, Prolab.
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/16/01 at 14:52 (060592)

It was just the particular day. He had a surgery and people out of the office and patients backed up.I used my good heelspurs sense and said no to the foam box. $500 does sound like the high end compared to what I read here. I know I do not want to go to Davis Shoes specialist in S.F.. They charged my sister $1200.00 for ortho shoes for her charcot foot (she even provided the new balance tennies to start with. She was told the shoes would 'give her life back and how thrilled she would be'... She called and said she needed a height adjust and missed the deadline for the free one so they sit in her closet and she wears her big plastic boot thing. Gripe gripe. So do you recommend Prolab & Paul Scherer only for this area? I don't mind driving into the city for a Dr. who will start from scratch and check everything, gait, look for stress fracture... I feel like Carmen, I just don't feel like I have got THE Dr. yet. I feel like they are looking at me and saying 'heelspurs & PF try this and come back in a week'. I am approaching 1 year with this pf and maybe I am going through some kind of predictable 'one year frustration stage'. Still interested in what materials are best to request. I overpronate & have a high arch sitting, legs crossed and flat-ish feet standing.

Re: Lisa SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/16/01 at 21:59 (060636)

Hi Lisa,

I live in SF, and the Podiatry School was around 5 minutes from where I live, but it has recently closed, and moved out to Valleo Ca. (sp?).
Dr. Paul Schere hasn't seen patients at the school in quite a while, and is retired from private practice. I actually talked to him a couple of months ago hoping I could see him, and he was no longer seeing patients anywhere.

I was thinking of seeing Davis Theraputics myself, and have an appt this week. They are Cpeds not podiatrist, but I heard they are very good, and familiar with soft materials. Now you have me concerned. They said that they only include 2 adjustments, and then you are charged for the rest, but were so confident that I would not need any more than two. I'm wondering if they are not that great to work with. That sounds very petty with what they did with your sister. There are other cpeds, and orthotist that could fix your sisters shoes, but I would demand they fix them, after what she paid.

I know a lot of pods in the city, and haven't found any that great yet for orthotics. I have a high arches which is tough foot. I know one that is an expert biomechanically, and very nice, but he is really only familiar working with plastic. He's probably great with normal to flat feet though. If I find anyone decent I'll let you know. Do you really think I should stay away from Davis Shoe theraputics? Is this the one in the outer Richmond area on Judah? I'd appreciate any other info. I've already thrown out tons of money on bad orthotics, and he's not cheap.

I do know of some orthotist, and a podiatrist with a cped cert, but haven't tried them yet, and have no idea if they are any good.

Donna

Re: Re:**DONNA SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/17/01 at 01:40 (060666)

Donna,
Thank you for the updated info. I took my sister for all her visits to Davis. 1st visit we were kept waiting almost 45 minutes past our appointment time. He was out to lunch and returned late. He was late for the next as well. My sister had to phone several times to check on the status of her shoes. They were not ready anywhere near the time promised. My impression was that they have a service that is in high demand and there are not alot of c-peds around and they are aware of that. I will not go there for my orthotics. I thought it was still considered S.F. there, you go past G.G. Park, I will have to get the exact addy for you. I know that my sisters condition is a difficult one, but he did go on about how much these shoes would do for her. She has no balance in the shoes and must use a cane (one shoe is too high also) In her boot she doesn't need a cane. $1200.00 is a fortune and they were not covered by insurance. In all fairness to them, report back if you go there. I hope you have a good experience wherever you go.

Re: To:**LISA C** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/17/01 at 02:58 (060669)

Lisa,

It's funny. I went there for a consultation around 9 or 10 months ago, and had to wait around an hour too. I just thought he was busy. I paid $58.00 for the consultation. When I got home, I had a few quetions I forgot to ask, and when I called and left a message no one returned my call. I called twice. I then decided at the time not to go back to him. I had seen Davis the owner. Recently someone said he was probably busy, and that's why he didn't call me back which I thought was rude, and suggested that I give him another chance.

Which Cped did you see? Was it Davis himself? He's only there once a week now, but has another cped on staff full time. I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same place. There is a neighborhood called Richmond in in SF. It's not far from the ocean.

Has your sister told him the shoes weren't right? How long is the so called cut-off time for adjustments? How long did she wait before she said they didn't feel right? Regardless why shouldn't he fix them if she paid so much for them? Especially if it is at height adjustment. This doesn't seem like an adjustment issue, but an ethical issue. They are not satisfactory, and are not doing what they are supposed to. Did he check her in them, and seem concerned they were right for her, and check her walking, balance, etc.? That's their job. They are suppossed to be professionals, not used car saleman. How much money did he want to fix them? If they weren't right from the beginning I don't think he should charge to fix them. Did you call the Cped board do report him, or ask for suggestions? Here's thier web site.

http://www.cpeds.org

He had said to me that he wouldn't let me walk out of there unless the orthotics were perfect, and I shouldn't need more than 2 adjustments, which from past experience with orthotics seemed like a lot of bull, unless he's a miracle worker. If I go to a pod at least my insurance pays for a large proportion of the office vistits.

I may just go up to talk to them again, but I'm debating if it's worth my time, or the $58.00 I'll have to pay again for a consultation. I think his fees have gone up since I've been there. Wonder if I would be treated the same way with orthotics?

Do you know of anyone that had orthotics made from him? If you find out anything else, or have any more info I'd appreciate if you let me know.

Donna

Re: Re:**DONNA SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 15:22 (060754)

I am unfamiliar with 'Davis Shoe Therapeutics.' Same name but I want to make it clear that they are not associated in any way with me.
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 15:25 (060755)

You demonstrated good common sense. Your doc should do the same. If the service cannot be done right, it needs to be re-scheduled.
Ed

Re: To Dr. Davis ** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/17/01 at 16:37 (060768)

Hi Dr. Davis

It's unfortunate the name is the same. This guy is in CA. I think you're in Seattle. I don't think with what you have expressed about you're knowledge, skill, and, ethics concering orthotics, and your caring nature that anyone would ever consider you had any affiliations with this person.

Even though the person had problems with a pair of custom made shoes, I get the feeling you don't think he sounds too great. Should I write him off my list too for orthotics?

Donna

Re: To Dr. Davis ** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 21:28 (060814)

Donna:

I cannot say--- I do not know anything about him.
Ed

Re: To:**Donna SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C on 9/18/01 at 04:00 (060827)

It is near the ocean. I think that late for them is the norm. I don't know who she saw. I think he had a beard? I waited in the 'lovely' waiting room. I can find out. I am sure she called w/in 2 weeks to say she needed an adjustment. She started with 15 minutes a day ... as recommended as a break in period. It takes a while at that rate to realize if its wrong or you are getting used to them. She has only one day off a week that she can go in & they knew that. She ended up just so dissappointed & disgusted with everything that she said forget it. I am sure she now feels that the original speech was just a sales pitch and there is no shoe(s) that will make any difference. She gave up. YOU could hold them to their word and not walk out until your orthotics were perfect.

Re: To:**Lisa C** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/18/01 at 05:42 (060831)

Hi Lisa,

I feel terrible about what happenend to your sister. I can't understand why they only gave her two weeks to come back for adjustments. Did they tell her this upfront in the beginning? Why the time limit? I agree it takes time to be able to try things, and know what's really bothering you, even with orthotics. Also, as you said it takes time to get back for the appointment.

Again if she needed an adjustment, and it was part of the package a two week time limit seems very unfair, and unreasonable. Did they really refuse to fix them at no charge, because she didn't make it back within a couple of weeks after charging her $1200.00? Did they do any adjustments at all? I assume they demanded the entire payment up front.

I have had some mixed feeling on returning to them. I felt this way even before I saw your post. Not only because I never had my calls returned after the first meeting last year, but also because I felt they might be a little regimented. I think I will call their office tomorrow, and inquire about their policy first. I would not mention any discussion of this post.

There are some wonderful orthotist I know that may be able to help your sister out at UCSF. If you have an email you can give me I can give you their names. If not I don't mind, and just call the Orthotic & Prosthetic center at UCSF. I don't know if they make custom shoes but may be able to point her in the right direction of someone else who can help her. They don't charge for a consultation either.

Also there is a podiatrist in SF listed on the Cped board under the search section if you plug in CA. He is a pod with a Cped cert, that's why he's listed there. I spoke with him on the phone. He works with an orthotist who has over 30 years of experience who makes his orthotics, and he may know someone also. I don't know if this pod himself has extensive training in biomechanics, but he may still be helpful. He seemed very kind from the discussion I had with him on the phone.

Also, my current pod is extremely experienced in biomechanics, and an expert in the field It's just that he's not that experienced with the softer materials, but is a wonderful, sweet, compassionate person. You may not have as tough as a foot as me, and do fine with him. He'll bend over backwards for you, and do an extensive exam, and a perfect cast. He also spends tons of time with you. Even if I got a pair made somewhere else he would check them out. I have asked my pod before, and he requested that I not put his name on this board, so again I could email you. I just thought this Davis guy was more experienced working with the softer accomadating materials. Also there is another pod that I know of that is suppossed to be excellent for orthotics, and accomadating materials, but he is out in San Rafel which is too far for me. I also heard of one other pod some people like very much in SF, but have gotten mixed opinions on orthotics from others that have used her.

Did you have a chance to check the Cped site for others?

It's hard to know which guy you are talking about at this place. I think there are only two of them, and either one could have grown a beard since I was there. The only other person that I saw at the time was the 'lovely receptionist' who sits behind the little window to the 'lovely little waiting room' with the lovely view of the street. I think we are definitly talking about the same place. They suppossedly remodled the place since I was there.

Did they try to recruit you for a pair of orthotics at the time?

Thanks so much for the info you provided so far, and keep me posted on what's happening with your sister. Please let me know if I can be of further help. Also if you find out anything else about Davis in SF, please let me know. My appointment is nearing.

Donna

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Jeff S. on 9/23/01 at 19:12 (061359)

Sorry It took so long to reply... I've been caught up on other events...As a matter of fact, I was seen by Paul Scherer, being referred to him a local Pod, who actually went to school with him. His precsription was as bad as anything I have had in 20 years. It was just made of a different type of plastic. He was so suprised when I told him they didn't work. In fact, the arch portion was so flexible, the orthotics flattened out when I walked on them. I demanded my money back, and after complaints to the BBB, and the now closed clinic, I received my $$ back. Very disappointing experience. Furthermore, I never have had anyone recommend night splints. I know what they are and have done some research on them. My heel is reducable to a more normal position. While my research has not told me what a Korby Skive is, I suspect it is like a wedge under the heel providing a lift on the interior. I did suggest this type of 'geometry' to the latest C Ped, and got no real response. I just went to Longs Drugs and bought a pair of nice foam pads that are tapered to the edges; I put them in the middle of the arch, slightly behind the metatarsals. This seems to provide me with a little more arch that provides me with some relief. I have also started to use sme athletic tape around the ankle and under the heel. This also seems to help slightly.

It seems from this thread, which I started, that my experience is not all that unusual. I am sure, that if I had the materials to make changes to my orthotics, when I needed them, I could finally have what I want. Then I could use those as a model for a real pair. I am running out of room in my shoe however.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Pauline on 9/12/01 at 08:07 (059949)

Hi Jeff,
Boy, you came to the right place to vent your frustrations. I think most of us have been right there with you. Although I know you are interested in finding the correct orthotics to solve your problems, I'm wondering if you are also trying all the other conservative treatments for Plantar Fasciitis.

Irregardless of having the 'correct' orthotic I think you may need to also incorporate the stretching, icing, massage, and physical therapy necessary to help loosen those tight muscles. Reading Scott's book will give you a place to start and understand the total picture of Plantar Fasciitis.

I know Julie has wonder information on stretching that might help with those leg cramps as well as the P.F.

Stick with us, this board is a place to vent, a place to get information, and a place to have your spirts lifted. Perhaps your thinking about your condition in too narrow a fashion and a combination program utalizing all conservative treatments might serve you better.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Pauline on 9/12/01 at 18:21 (060022)

Jeff,
Go to the 'Ask the Doctor' board and look at Carmen's thread titled
'Do you have this' Click on the web site she lists and go to it. Then click back to it's home page. You will see several articles to read.
Check out the two on orthotics. You may find them very interesting.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/12/01 at 22:17 (060060)

Where do you live? Occasionally we know qualified practitioners in various parts of the country.
Ed

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

terry n on 9/14/01 at 08:05 (060284)

dr. Ed-I too am suffering with horrid pain from plantar fascitis and I am told a very large heel spur. It has gotten to the point that I avoid walking as much as possible, as it is so painful. My pain in the heel extends along the outer side of my foot, and up the sides and lower back of my leg. I have orthotics-never go without them, but they are not much help. Arthrotec does not help the pain either. The best relief I get is when my husband massages and squeezes my foot. I am in heaven, as long as he doesn't touch a very tender and sensitive area on my heel. This is really interfering with my lifestyle. The pain wakes me up at night, and very frequently I can barely walk. The pain ranges from an aching type to sharp stabbing, burning, numbness and tingling and throbbing (I actually don't mind the last three-especially the throbbing,it feels kind of nice!)Nuts, buts thats the truth. In any case, sonething has got to be done, I can't go on like this much longer, plus standing like a flamingo on one foot to try to relieve the pain and pressure doesn't exactly look too normal. Do you know of someone in the Baltimore, Maryland area that would be competent and knowledgeable? The orthopedic surgeon that I consulted, really wasn't interested and did not help at all. I know that if I return to him, he will suggest a cortisone shot, and I don't think that is the answer or cure for my problems. Looking forward to your advice. Thanks in advance.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Richard, C.Ped on 9/14/01 at 08:38 (060293)

Wow,
that really angers me when someone feels that they are at the end of their obligation, as you said. Custom orthotics may need adjustment...plain and simple. It is the responsibility of the supplier to do so.

In my opinion, your foot type is the easiest to help. Many of the sports med doctors do not know much about orthotics. That is where we as C.Peds come in. They trust our judgement, and they know that we are able to help their patients by the feedback they receive. We also have the doctors in orthotics, so they know what the patients are using.

What part of the country do you live in?
Richard

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 11:33 (060314)

Terry:
Read this web site carefully as there is a wealth of information on your problem. I do not know anyone personally in your area--maybe Dr. Z does.
One good source is the web site http://www.acfas.org
Ed

Re: Question for Dr. Ed, or Dr Zucxkerberg, or anyone else that can help-I really need HELP!!

terry n on 9/14/01 at 15:50 (060348)

Dr Ed, Thanks for the very prompt response. I will try what you suggested.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/16/01 at 01:06 (060538)

I live in Contra Costa County 45 minutes from San Francisco. Anyone you'd HIGHLY recommend here? My pod suggested orthotics and likes graphite and a semi ridgid orthotic. I know I want full length. He was going to cast me in a foam box but thanks to HS I knew I didn't want that. He said the box isn't the best casting method but he was trying to hurry. Since I will have to pay for these as I have $500.00 to go on my deductible and that is what they cost, I want to make sure that I do everthing I can to try to make them a good set. What is the best top layer? I know it has been posted here before. Is graphite good? Anything better? Thanks in advance for any help!

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

jeff on 9/16/01 at 01:30 (060540)

I have seen a few C. Peds, and Podiatrists. I even saw an orthopedic suregon who told me after taking a couple of x-rays: Well, I'm not an orthotics guy, surgery and physical therapy usually don't help too well... I was told by the last Pod. I saw, a teacher at a podiatric college in SFO that because my foot was so rigid, it was more difficult to treat.

My valgus heel causes strain on the back ligaments of the foot; my plantar facia is tight. My calf muscles are strong and when I relax I can feel the foot extending itself downward, with the toes pointing away. They are like this all night. I am better when I am moving, not standing, but by the end of the day, I have had it. Stretching, icing, and all that may work, HOWEVER, while the foot is working (during the day; walking, standing, etc.) if the foot is not in PROPER control in the shoe, then it is fatigued and under strain by the time you want to massage it.

The orthotics try and control the heel by lifting up slightly at the rear of the arch at the Calcaneous. This does not move the heel to a neutral position. Because the main downward pressure is toward the INSIDE of a central line down the foot, only through a correction of the heel, and a build up of the arch, TOGETHER, can the foot be controlled. I can't seem to get this across to the C. Peds. They seem to agree with the theory, but can't seem to fit an orthotic to match.

Right now my most recent expense (orthotics) are no different in comfort, than what I had when I went in.

I live in Monterey, CA. Please don't recommend the C. Ped here. There are also a couple of Pods. I wouldn't see again either. I might be willing to go to the San Jose - Santa Clara area, but it is 100 miles each way.

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/16/01 at 03:08 (060548)

Lisa:

Why is your doc trying to hurry? It takes less than 5 minutes to do the foam box impressions but about 30 minutes to use plaster of paris, taking the mold of your foot while it is held in an optimal position. $500 sounds a bit steep, even steeper if you are getting a 'rushed' service. Does not sound good to me.

Graphite is a good material due to its thinness and lightness. What is really more important is the prescription---made from careful, patient measurements, good impression technique....
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/16/01 at 03:14 (060549)

Have you tried night splints? Sounds like you may have a need for them.

Who did you see at the podiatry school in SF? Is your heel in a fixed position of valgus or is it reducable to a more normal position? A Kirby skive is one means by which an othotic can provide better control of the calcaneus.

Consider seeing Dr. Paul Scherer at the pod school in SF. he runs a good orthotic lab, Prolab.
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/16/01 at 14:52 (060592)

It was just the particular day. He had a surgery and people out of the office and patients backed up.I used my good heelspurs sense and said no to the foam box. $500 does sound like the high end compared to what I read here. I know I do not want to go to Davis Shoes specialist in S.F.. They charged my sister $1200.00 for ortho shoes for her charcot foot (she even provided the new balance tennies to start with. She was told the shoes would 'give her life back and how thrilled she would be'... She called and said she needed a height adjust and missed the deadline for the free one so they sit in her closet and she wears her big plastic boot thing. Gripe gripe. So do you recommend Prolab & Paul Scherer only for this area? I don't mind driving into the city for a Dr. who will start from scratch and check everything, gait, look for stress fracture... I feel like Carmen, I just don't feel like I have got THE Dr. yet. I feel like they are looking at me and saying 'heelspurs & PF try this and come back in a week'. I am approaching 1 year with this pf and maybe I am going through some kind of predictable 'one year frustration stage'. Still interested in what materials are best to request. I overpronate & have a high arch sitting, legs crossed and flat-ish feet standing.

Re: Lisa SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/16/01 at 21:59 (060636)

Hi Lisa,

I live in SF, and the Podiatry School was around 5 minutes from where I live, but it has recently closed, and moved out to Valleo Ca. (sp?).
Dr. Paul Schere hasn't seen patients at the school in quite a while, and is retired from private practice. I actually talked to him a couple of months ago hoping I could see him, and he was no longer seeing patients anywhere.

I was thinking of seeing Davis Theraputics myself, and have an appt this week. They are Cpeds not podiatrist, but I heard they are very good, and familiar with soft materials. Now you have me concerned. They said that they only include 2 adjustments, and then you are charged for the rest, but were so confident that I would not need any more than two. I'm wondering if they are not that great to work with. That sounds very petty with what they did with your sister. There are other cpeds, and orthotist that could fix your sisters shoes, but I would demand they fix them, after what she paid.

I know a lot of pods in the city, and haven't found any that great yet for orthotics. I have a high arches which is tough foot. I know one that is an expert biomechanically, and very nice, but he is really only familiar working with plastic. He's probably great with normal to flat feet though. If I find anyone decent I'll let you know. Do you really think I should stay away from Davis Shoe theraputics? Is this the one in the outer Richmond area on Judah? I'd appreciate any other info. I've already thrown out tons of money on bad orthotics, and he's not cheap.

I do know of some orthotist, and a podiatrist with a cped cert, but haven't tried them yet, and have no idea if they are any good.

Donna

Re: Re:**DONNA SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C. on 9/17/01 at 01:40 (060666)

Donna,
Thank you for the updated info. I took my sister for all her visits to Davis. 1st visit we were kept waiting almost 45 minutes past our appointment time. He was out to lunch and returned late. He was late for the next as well. My sister had to phone several times to check on the status of her shoes. They were not ready anywhere near the time promised. My impression was that they have a service that is in high demand and there are not alot of c-peds around and they are aware of that. I will not go there for my orthotics. I thought it was still considered S.F. there, you go past G.G. Park, I will have to get the exact addy for you. I know that my sisters condition is a difficult one, but he did go on about how much these shoes would do for her. She has no balance in the shoes and must use a cane (one shoe is too high also) In her boot she doesn't need a cane. $1200.00 is a fortune and they were not covered by insurance. In all fairness to them, report back if you go there. I hope you have a good experience wherever you go.

Re: To:**LISA C** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/17/01 at 02:58 (060669)

Lisa,

It's funny. I went there for a consultation around 9 or 10 months ago, and had to wait around an hour too. I just thought he was busy. I paid $58.00 for the consultation. When I got home, I had a few quetions I forgot to ask, and when I called and left a message no one returned my call. I called twice. I then decided at the time not to go back to him. I had seen Davis the owner. Recently someone said he was probably busy, and that's why he didn't call me back which I thought was rude, and suggested that I give him another chance.

Which Cped did you see? Was it Davis himself? He's only there once a week now, but has another cped on staff full time. I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same place. There is a neighborhood called Richmond in in SF. It's not far from the ocean.

Has your sister told him the shoes weren't right? How long is the so called cut-off time for adjustments? How long did she wait before she said they didn't feel right? Regardless why shouldn't he fix them if she paid so much for them? Especially if it is at height adjustment. This doesn't seem like an adjustment issue, but an ethical issue. They are not satisfactory, and are not doing what they are supposed to. Did he check her in them, and seem concerned they were right for her, and check her walking, balance, etc.? That's their job. They are suppossed to be professionals, not used car saleman. How much money did he want to fix them? If they weren't right from the beginning I don't think he should charge to fix them. Did you call the Cped board do report him, or ask for suggestions? Here's thier web site.

http://www.cpeds.org

He had said to me that he wouldn't let me walk out of there unless the orthotics were perfect, and I shouldn't need more than 2 adjustments, which from past experience with orthotics seemed like a lot of bull, unless he's a miracle worker. If I go to a pod at least my insurance pays for a large proportion of the office vistits.

I may just go up to talk to them again, but I'm debating if it's worth my time, or the $58.00 I'll have to pay again for a consultation. I think his fees have gone up since I've been there. Wonder if I would be treated the same way with orthotics?

Do you know of anyone that had orthotics made from him? If you find out anything else, or have any more info I'd appreciate if you let me know.

Donna

Re: Re:**DONNA SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 15:22 (060754)

I am unfamiliar with 'Davis Shoe Therapeutics.' Same name but I want to make it clear that they are not associated in any way with me.
Ed

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 15:25 (060755)

You demonstrated good common sense. Your doc should do the same. If the service cannot be done right, it needs to be re-scheduled.
Ed

Re: To Dr. Davis ** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/17/01 at 16:37 (060768)

Hi Dr. Davis

It's unfortunate the name is the same. This guy is in CA. I think you're in Seattle. I don't think with what you have expressed about you're knowledge, skill, and, ethics concering orthotics, and your caring nature that anyone would ever consider you had any affiliations with this person.

Even though the person had problems with a pair of custom made shoes, I get the feeling you don't think he sounds too great. Should I write him off my list too for orthotics?

Donna

Re: To Dr. Davis ** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/17/01 at 21:28 (060814)

Donna:

I cannot say--- I do not know anything about him.
Ed

Re: To:**Donna SL** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Lisa C on 9/18/01 at 04:00 (060827)

It is near the ocean. I think that late for them is the norm. I don't know who she saw. I think he had a beard? I waited in the 'lovely' waiting room. I can find out. I am sure she called w/in 2 weeks to say she needed an adjustment. She started with 15 minutes a day ... as recommended as a break in period. It takes a while at that rate to realize if its wrong or you are getting used to them. She has only one day off a week that she can go in & they knew that. She ended up just so dissappointed & disgusted with everything that she said forget it. I am sure she now feels that the original speech was just a sales pitch and there is no shoe(s) that will make any difference. She gave up. YOU could hold them to their word and not walk out until your orthotics were perfect.

Re: To:**Lisa C** SF Podiatry School closed Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics **DR.DAVIS**

Donna SL on 9/18/01 at 05:42 (060831)

Hi Lisa,

I feel terrible about what happenend to your sister. I can't understand why they only gave her two weeks to come back for adjustments. Did they tell her this upfront in the beginning? Why the time limit? I agree it takes time to be able to try things, and know what's really bothering you, even with orthotics. Also, as you said it takes time to get back for the appointment.

Again if she needed an adjustment, and it was part of the package a two week time limit seems very unfair, and unreasonable. Did they really refuse to fix them at no charge, because she didn't make it back within a couple of weeks after charging her $1200.00? Did they do any adjustments at all? I assume they demanded the entire payment up front.

I have had some mixed feeling on returning to them. I felt this way even before I saw your post. Not only because I never had my calls returned after the first meeting last year, but also because I felt they might be a little regimented. I think I will call their office tomorrow, and inquire about their policy first. I would not mention any discussion of this post.

There are some wonderful orthotist I know that may be able to help your sister out at UCSF. If you have an email you can give me I can give you their names. If not I don't mind, and just call the Orthotic & Prosthetic center at UCSF. I don't know if they make custom shoes but may be able to point her in the right direction of someone else who can help her. They don't charge for a consultation either.

Also there is a podiatrist in SF listed on the Cped board under the search section if you plug in CA. He is a pod with a Cped cert, that's why he's listed there. I spoke with him on the phone. He works with an orthotist who has over 30 years of experience who makes his orthotics, and he may know someone also. I don't know if this pod himself has extensive training in biomechanics, but he may still be helpful. He seemed very kind from the discussion I had with him on the phone.

Also, my current pod is extremely experienced in biomechanics, and an expert in the field It's just that he's not that experienced with the softer materials, but is a wonderful, sweet, compassionate person. You may not have as tough as a foot as me, and do fine with him. He'll bend over backwards for you, and do an extensive exam, and a perfect cast. He also spends tons of time with you. Even if I got a pair made somewhere else he would check them out. I have asked my pod before, and he requested that I not put his name on this board, so again I could email you. I just thought this Davis guy was more experienced working with the softer accomadating materials. Also there is another pod that I know of that is suppossed to be excellent for orthotics, and accomadating materials, but he is out in San Rafel which is too far for me. I also heard of one other pod some people like very much in SF, but have gotten mixed opinions on orthotics from others that have used her.

Did you have a chance to check the Cped site for others?

It's hard to know which guy you are talking about at this place. I think there are only two of them, and either one could have grown a beard since I was there. The only other person that I saw at the time was the 'lovely receptionist' who sits behind the little window to the 'lovely little waiting room' with the lovely view of the street. I think we are definitly talking about the same place. They suppossedly remodled the place since I was there.

Did they try to recruit you for a pair of orthotics at the time?

Thanks so much for the info you provided so far, and keep me posted on what's happening with your sister. Please let me know if I can be of further help. Also if you find out anything else about Davis in SF, please let me know. My appointment is nearing.

Donna

Re: another $$ set of ineffective orthotics

Jeff S. on 9/23/01 at 19:12 (061359)

Sorry It took so long to reply... I've been caught up on other events...As a matter of fact, I was seen by Paul Scherer, being referred to him a local Pod, who actually went to school with him. His precsription was as bad as anything I have had in 20 years. It was just made of a different type of plastic. He was so suprised when I told him they didn't work. In fact, the arch portion was so flexible, the orthotics flattened out when I walked on them. I demanded my money back, and after complaints to the BBB, and the now closed clinic, I received my $$ back. Very disappointing experience. Furthermore, I never have had anyone recommend night splints. I know what they are and have done some research on them. My heel is reducable to a more normal position. While my research has not told me what a Korby Skive is, I suspect it is like a wedge under the heel providing a lift on the interior. I did suggest this type of 'geometry' to the latest C Ped, and got no real response. I just went to Longs Drugs and bought a pair of nice foam pads that are tapered to the edges; I put them in the middle of the arch, slightly behind the metatarsals. This seems to provide me with a little more arch that provides me with some relief. I have also started to use sme athletic tape around the ankle and under the heel. This also seems to help slightly.

It seems from this thread, which I started, that my experience is not all that unusual. I am sure, that if I had the materials to make changes to my orthotics, when I needed them, I could finally have what I want. Then I could use those as a model for a real pair. I am running out of room in my shoe however.