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another dissident

Posted by John Anon on 9/13/01 at 16:29 (060169)

To be blunt, our hens are coming home to roost, once again. As the world's largest arms supplier we have sowed the seeds of sorrow for decades across the globe. The deaths resulting indirectly from guns and kill machines made in the USA make WTC look minor. The direct application of our technological might by suppressive governments has killed hundreds of thousands and likely millions in the past several decades. We, American citizens have chosen ignorance to profess our innocence but we bear a significant responsibility here [as indeed we did in Iraq!]

Guess who was on the CIA payroll for years??? We funded bin Ladin to fight the Soviets in the 80's - we were spending $500 million a yr and he was getting advanced US made weapons to shoot down their aircraft. Hey, guess what, lots of those Stinger missiles are still in Afghanistan and just like Iraq, we'll be shot at again with our own weapons...

I can't help but feel cynical and negative about the entire matter. While few of those killed in NY deserved to die [I know at least a few were not good folks], we cannot claim innocence at all. We created Same bin Ladin and then he turned on us after we used Saudi Arabia as a base to invade Iraq. He is intelligent, well-educated, wealthy, and giving us what we have quietly allowed others to experience first hand for years.
Do you feel bad when Israel bulldozes dozens of generations of Palestinian
old homes [no reparations or compensation, either] on the suspicion of being a base of sharpshooters, etc??? We provide the large bulk of foreign aid, per capita Israel is biggest recipient and yet we ignore their repeated suppression of Civil Rights of Palestinians [from who they took the area by force and no legal right except 'power rules' Jews used terrorist bombings against the Brits in Palestine in the 40's - but if you win, it's no longer terrorism...

The whole scenario reeks and leaves me cold - I don't know anyone personally, and while I feel despondent, I'm no sadder for our citizens than I am for people around the world suffering because of the misapplication of American might for corporate and authoritarian interests [Columbia's 'drug war' fights only the rebel drug Lords].

Frankly, we got what we had coming. I've felt for years that it was astonishing that no large incident occurred. This horror begins to balance the equation.

If you reap what you sow, then we are long over-due for a great whirlwind that will make this WTC incident seem a pleasant Spring breeze by comparison. And, it will be the end of the world as we know it for more than the few thousands thus far victims of hatred.

Re: another dissident

John h on 9/13/01 at 16:36 (060173)

John Anon you state 'we got what we had coming'! Can you really mean that? Does anyone deserve that. I find that unbelievable cruel. It taints anything you post. How can anyone get past that statement? How can you be happy living here if you feel that?

Re: another dissident

wallyh on 9/13/01 at 17:16 (060184)

John anon makes a lot of valid points. And john h, I agree with you that no one deserves this not even our enemies. But I do believe you do have to get by that statement. Some of this whole problem lies in the belly of anon's words, and that we as American's like to believe what we want to believe in spite of what is true, so we can maintain and bolster our myopic view of the world outside our country. In a lot of cases we are hated for good reason, just as we are hating back right now. It is based in loss and grief and what seems to be unfair. Yes, it is now in our laps and it feels bad, but it has felt bad for them too. After all, they're human. A poll was taken after we bombed Libya. Only 25% of the respondents could tell you where Libya was located. My point is is that as American's if we can't even give them a location, how can we attribute other human characteristics which are already difficult to see through our anger.

Re: another dissident

Scott R on 9/13/01 at 18:37 (060196)

I wonder if the point of the attack wasn't merely hatred, but an attempt to wake us up to what we have done to them. To make us stop and try to figure out why 15 men would commit suicide against us in a very deliberate and skilfull way, apparently with the full support of all their friends and relatives. If that is the case, then they seem to have succeeded at least in this small pocket. Can an entire culture be insane and cruel as we are assuming? I'm sure those men had some loving parents that made it possible for them to be talented enough to do it (unless of course we had helped Israel kill their parents in their youth). I wonder how many of their people we've killed (murdered?). Should we offer an apology, back-pay, and turn Palestine back over to Palestinians? Why did we take it from them anyway?

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 19:05 (060206)

Scott:

You really need to do some historical research. The United States did not take Palestine from the Palestinians. There never was a country called Palestine. There was a colony of Britain known as the British 'mandate' of Palestine which included the land which is now Jordan, Israel and the West Bank. The portion of the British mandate of Palestine east of the Jordan river was given to rule, after the Brits withdrew from the area, to the Hashemite Arabs (of which King Hussein was a member). That area became known as Trans-Jordan and eventually just Jordan. The Hashemite population of Jordan are actually a minority in that country with the majority being Palestinian Arabs. After WWII, that portion of the mandate west of the Jordan River was partitioned into a Jewish state, Israel and an Arab state.
The neighboring Arab countries, Syria and Egypt, refused to accept the existence of Israel, vowed to 'drive the Jews into the sea,' told the Arab population in the area to leave so they would not be harmed in the upcoming massacre they had planned. Egypt and Syria lost the war in 1948 causing the Arab population they had displaced to become refugees. Those unfortunate refugees became pawns of Egypt, Syria and Jordan and excuses to wage 3 additional wars against Israel. The Israelis have been living under the spectre of terrorism on a daily basis. Albeit on a smaller scale, what happened to us on Tuesday is a regular occurrence in Israel. There are so many terrorist actions perpetrated against Israeli citizens that the American media had stopped reporting the incidents as news virtually a decade ago. Only the really big terrorist actions make the news.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Scott R on 9/13/01 at 21:06 (060230)

If we have been morally correct in supporting Israel, then I stand corrected and will be more open to the idea that we can wipe them out without any moral qualms. But my impression after a Frontline view of the history was that our support of Israel has always been a morally ambiguous position at best based solely on desire for influence in the oil arena and otherwise only influenced by the actions of one man who's name I can't remember.

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/13/01 at 21:32 (060235)

They could have chosen some other way to make a 'point.' Hust how sympathetic are we to their cause now? Say the would have all taken their own lives very visibly on the steps of the UN - that is the kind of suicide that elicits sympathy. I don't know how you can think this was motivated by anything other than hatred. Bin Laden himself has popularized the idea in Islam that every American should be shot on sight (I was watchin' PBS tonight and I heard it right from the guy's lips). This is hatred - a hatred that makes it possible for a guy to run past a whole planeload of gradeschool kids, stab a stewardess, and dive a plane into the Pentagon. Something more than a political statement. B.

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/13/01 at 22:00 (060246)

Wasn't Zionism originally a religious movement, with its aim the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem? Big oil came later? B.

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 22:32 (060252)

Actually, it has been US support that could be viewed as ambiguous. the first three wars fought by Israel against the Arabs were fought without US support--1948, 1956 and 1967. The war in 1948 was fought largely with surplus WWII weapons and weapons smuggled from Czechoslovakia to Israel. The 1967 war, also known as the 'Six Day War' largely started as an air war with all of the planes used by Israel coming from France--Super Etendards and early Mirage Models. The US feared alienation of the Arab countries which we had become so dependent on for oil. If oil was not a factor, US support of Israel would have occurred earlier and have been less ambiguous.

The US really started selling arms to Israel in a significant fashion during the war of 1973 (Yom Kippur War). It may have been a more dangerous situation than many have realized. Egypt, with the support of the Soviet Union and pushed deep into the Gaza Strip causing heavy Israeli casualties.
Israel feared it may lose the war (and thus be annihilated) and readied its small nuclear arsenal for use. The Soviets responded by placing nuclear intermediate range ballistic missles in Egypt. President Nixon realized the danger and started an airlift of conventional weapons to Israel which included technology for electronic countermeasures(learned by us in Vietnam) to counter the Soviet surface to air missle threat. This allowed Israel to 'win' a conventional victory---a close call.

The US, to the present time, realizes the moral situation but attempts to balance that with our need for oil from the 'moderate' Arab nations. Israel has faced a multiplicity of terrorist attacks but the United States has regularly asked Israel (perhaps pressured Israel) for a restrained and limited response to the terrorists and countries harboring the terrorists.
This policy may change now.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 22:40 (060256)

Barbara:

Zionism is actually a nationalistic movement, the idea of which was to re-establish the State of Israel. Rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem was not part of the plan. I think you are referring to the Temple of Solomon. The significance of the Temple of Solomon is that an Islamic mosque was built at the site of the ruined temple. The Israelis realize that if they tore the mosque down, that would really anger the Moslem world and they have stated no intention to do so. The Biblical perspective (I am more of a history buff than one who has a lot of biblical knowledge) from Revelations is that the temple will be rebuilt, I believe in the last seven years preceeding Armageddon. The rebuilding of the temple is a biblical sign for 'end times' and the return of Christ.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/14/01 at 10:02 (060296)

Very good explanation, Dr. Ed. Thanks! B.

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

john h on 9/14/01 at 11:22 (060310)

I am most impressed by your grasp of history. I do not know about your medical skills but if they match your knowledge of history then you must be a brillant Doctor. Your contributions have contributed to my knowledge and make me think or rethink some positions. For the past week i have developed a good raport with Itaei who was on the board briefely but is now back at home in Israel. He has given me the jewish perspective and a lot of the history of his country and how they feel. We have a lot of very informed and smart people on this board and a lot of very sensitive and caring people. You guys, whether we agree or disagree, have become my extended family. I really cannot imagine where i could go to find a more informative and diverse discussion than right here on heelspurs. We have doctors, philosophers, moms,dads, warriors, israelis, canadains, english , australians, engineers, business people. This is a most uncommon place and we are lucky to be here and share. Scott has created something that has grown far beyond what he intended. At the end of the day we will once again be back to deal with our very real problems of heel pain and once again show our compassion for one another. I forgot or maybe never knew where Anon came from. Was he a heelspurs sufferer or did he just appear when our problems with the terriorist activity appeared?

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 12:08 (060322)

I guess we are a bunch of knowledge seekers and curious people.
Ed

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 12:15 (060323)

John:
I appreciate your compliment. I am sort of a history buff but I really feel that the study of history is one of the most important and under appreciated things we can do. It is really the only way not to repeat the mistakes of the past, put things in proper perspective and maybe to acquire some wisdom. We have more tech knowledge, access to our information but are we really wiser than our ancestors? Information does not equal knowledge. Knowledge does not equal wisdom. Information can become knowledge and knowledge can become wisdom in time.
Ed

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

John h on 9/14/01 at 13:01 (060329)

Well said Dr Davis! I to am a history buff but not in the area of the Mideast. I am really lost there. I intend to start looking closely at the history of that part of the world to get some sense of why we are where we are. And as you note, you cannot really understand today without understanding the past. What city are you in?

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Barbara TX on 9/14/01 at 13:10 (060331)

Wherever anon came from, might we all agree that no one on earth deserves the spurs from hell, not even anon?

Did I tell you that I joined a support group for people who can't stop talking? It's called the Onannonannonannonannon society.

I hope I don't sound like a dinosaur, but I feel like one. I remember talking about the principle of non-contradiction to my students 'a thing cannot both be and not be in the same time and in the same respect.' By this they (because they were clever) knew that I was going to claim that at the end of a debate there will be someone whose claims more accurately capture reality than others e.g. there is a right and a wrong, a winner or a loser of any logical arguement. No kidding, they looked at me like I had an Amish bonnet and did not believe in the use of electricity. They did not understand that 'being judgemental' and making a judgement about the good and evil of an action were not equivalent. So, anything goes. O brave new world, that has such people in it. B.

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/15/01 at 23:53 (060522)

I am in the Seattle area. A nearby city--Puyallup.
Ed

Re: another dissident

John h on 9/13/01 at 16:36 (060173)

John Anon you state 'we got what we had coming'! Can you really mean that? Does anyone deserve that. I find that unbelievable cruel. It taints anything you post. How can anyone get past that statement? How can you be happy living here if you feel that?

Re: another dissident

wallyh on 9/13/01 at 17:16 (060184)

John anon makes a lot of valid points. And john h, I agree with you that no one deserves this not even our enemies. But I do believe you do have to get by that statement. Some of this whole problem lies in the belly of anon's words, and that we as American's like to believe what we want to believe in spite of what is true, so we can maintain and bolster our myopic view of the world outside our country. In a lot of cases we are hated for good reason, just as we are hating back right now. It is based in loss and grief and what seems to be unfair. Yes, it is now in our laps and it feels bad, but it has felt bad for them too. After all, they're human. A poll was taken after we bombed Libya. Only 25% of the respondents could tell you where Libya was located. My point is is that as American's if we can't even give them a location, how can we attribute other human characteristics which are already difficult to see through our anger.

Re: another dissident

Scott R on 9/13/01 at 18:37 (060196)

I wonder if the point of the attack wasn't merely hatred, but an attempt to wake us up to what we have done to them. To make us stop and try to figure out why 15 men would commit suicide against us in a very deliberate and skilfull way, apparently with the full support of all their friends and relatives. If that is the case, then they seem to have succeeded at least in this small pocket. Can an entire culture be insane and cruel as we are assuming? I'm sure those men had some loving parents that made it possible for them to be talented enough to do it (unless of course we had helped Israel kill their parents in their youth). I wonder how many of their people we've killed (murdered?). Should we offer an apology, back-pay, and turn Palestine back over to Palestinians? Why did we take it from them anyway?

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 19:05 (060206)

Scott:

You really need to do some historical research. The United States did not take Palestine from the Palestinians. There never was a country called Palestine. There was a colony of Britain known as the British 'mandate' of Palestine which included the land which is now Jordan, Israel and the West Bank. The portion of the British mandate of Palestine east of the Jordan river was given to rule, after the Brits withdrew from the area, to the Hashemite Arabs (of which King Hussein was a member). That area became known as Trans-Jordan and eventually just Jordan. The Hashemite population of Jordan are actually a minority in that country with the majority being Palestinian Arabs. After WWII, that portion of the mandate west of the Jordan River was partitioned into a Jewish state, Israel and an Arab state.
The neighboring Arab countries, Syria and Egypt, refused to accept the existence of Israel, vowed to 'drive the Jews into the sea,' told the Arab population in the area to leave so they would not be harmed in the upcoming massacre they had planned. Egypt and Syria lost the war in 1948 causing the Arab population they had displaced to become refugees. Those unfortunate refugees became pawns of Egypt, Syria and Jordan and excuses to wage 3 additional wars against Israel. The Israelis have been living under the spectre of terrorism on a daily basis. Albeit on a smaller scale, what happened to us on Tuesday is a regular occurrence in Israel. There are so many terrorist actions perpetrated against Israeli citizens that the American media had stopped reporting the incidents as news virtually a decade ago. Only the really big terrorist actions make the news.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Scott R on 9/13/01 at 21:06 (060230)

If we have been morally correct in supporting Israel, then I stand corrected and will be more open to the idea that we can wipe them out without any moral qualms. But my impression after a Frontline view of the history was that our support of Israel has always been a morally ambiguous position at best based solely on desire for influence in the oil arena and otherwise only influenced by the actions of one man who's name I can't remember.

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/13/01 at 21:32 (060235)

They could have chosen some other way to make a 'point.' Hust how sympathetic are we to their cause now? Say the would have all taken their own lives very visibly on the steps of the UN - that is the kind of suicide that elicits sympathy. I don't know how you can think this was motivated by anything other than hatred. Bin Laden himself has popularized the idea in Islam that every American should be shot on sight (I was watchin' PBS tonight and I heard it right from the guy's lips). This is hatred - a hatred that makes it possible for a guy to run past a whole planeload of gradeschool kids, stab a stewardess, and dive a plane into the Pentagon. Something more than a political statement. B.

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/13/01 at 22:00 (060246)

Wasn't Zionism originally a religious movement, with its aim the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem? Big oil came later? B.

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 22:32 (060252)

Actually, it has been US support that could be viewed as ambiguous. the first three wars fought by Israel against the Arabs were fought without US support--1948, 1956 and 1967. The war in 1948 was fought largely with surplus WWII weapons and weapons smuggled from Czechoslovakia to Israel. The 1967 war, also known as the 'Six Day War' largely started as an air war with all of the planes used by Israel coming from France--Super Etendards and early Mirage Models. The US feared alienation of the Arab countries which we had become so dependent on for oil. If oil was not a factor, US support of Israel would have occurred earlier and have been less ambiguous.

The US really started selling arms to Israel in a significant fashion during the war of 1973 (Yom Kippur War). It may have been a more dangerous situation than many have realized. Egypt, with the support of the Soviet Union and pushed deep into the Gaza Strip causing heavy Israeli casualties.
Israel feared it may lose the war (and thus be annihilated) and readied its small nuclear arsenal for use. The Soviets responded by placing nuclear intermediate range ballistic missles in Egypt. President Nixon realized the danger and started an airlift of conventional weapons to Israel which included technology for electronic countermeasures(learned by us in Vietnam) to counter the Soviet surface to air missle threat. This allowed Israel to 'win' a conventional victory---a close call.

The US, to the present time, realizes the moral situation but attempts to balance that with our need for oil from the 'moderate' Arab nations. Israel has faced a multiplicity of terrorist attacks but the United States has regularly asked Israel (perhaps pressured Israel) for a restrained and limited response to the terrorists and countries harboring the terrorists.
This policy may change now.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/13/01 at 22:40 (060256)

Barbara:

Zionism is actually a nationalistic movement, the idea of which was to re-establish the State of Israel. Rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem was not part of the plan. I think you are referring to the Temple of Solomon. The significance of the Temple of Solomon is that an Islamic mosque was built at the site of the ruined temple. The Israelis realize that if they tore the mosque down, that would really anger the Moslem world and they have stated no intention to do so. The Biblical perspective (I am more of a history buff than one who has a lot of biblical knowledge) from Revelations is that the temple will be rebuilt, I believe in the last seven years preceeding Armageddon. The rebuilding of the temple is a biblical sign for 'end times' and the return of Christ.
Ed

Re: another dissident

Barbara TX on 9/14/01 at 10:02 (060296)

Very good explanation, Dr. Ed. Thanks! B.

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

john h on 9/14/01 at 11:22 (060310)

I am most impressed by your grasp of history. I do not know about your medical skills but if they match your knowledge of history then you must be a brillant Doctor. Your contributions have contributed to my knowledge and make me think or rethink some positions. For the past week i have developed a good raport with Itaei who was on the board briefely but is now back at home in Israel. He has given me the jewish perspective and a lot of the history of his country and how they feel. We have a lot of very informed and smart people on this board and a lot of very sensitive and caring people. You guys, whether we agree or disagree, have become my extended family. I really cannot imagine where i could go to find a more informative and diverse discussion than right here on heelspurs. We have doctors, philosophers, moms,dads, warriors, israelis, canadains, english , australians, engineers, business people. This is a most uncommon place and we are lucky to be here and share. Scott has created something that has grown far beyond what he intended. At the end of the day we will once again be back to deal with our very real problems of heel pain and once again show our compassion for one another. I forgot or maybe never knew where Anon came from. Was he a heelspurs sufferer or did he just appear when our problems with the terriorist activity appeared?

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 12:08 (060322)

I guess we are a bunch of knowledge seekers and curious people.
Ed

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/14/01 at 12:15 (060323)

John:
I appreciate your compliment. I am sort of a history buff but I really feel that the study of history is one of the most important and under appreciated things we can do. It is really the only way not to repeat the mistakes of the past, put things in proper perspective and maybe to acquire some wisdom. We have more tech knowledge, access to our information but are we really wiser than our ancestors? Information does not equal knowledge. Knowledge does not equal wisdom. Information can become knowledge and knowledge can become wisdom in time.
Ed

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

John h on 9/14/01 at 13:01 (060329)

Well said Dr Davis! I to am a history buff but not in the area of the Mideast. I am really lost there. I intend to start looking closely at the history of that part of the world to get some sense of why we are where we are. And as you note, you cannot really understand today without understanding the past. What city are you in?

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Barbara TX on 9/14/01 at 13:10 (060331)

Wherever anon came from, might we all agree that no one on earth deserves the spurs from hell, not even anon?

Did I tell you that I joined a support group for people who can't stop talking? It's called the Onannonannonannonannon society.

I hope I don't sound like a dinosaur, but I feel like one. I remember talking about the principle of non-contradiction to my students 'a thing cannot both be and not be in the same time and in the same respect.' By this they (because they were clever) knew that I was going to claim that at the end of a debate there will be someone whose claims more accurately capture reality than others e.g. there is a right and a wrong, a winner or a loser of any logical arguement. No kidding, they looked at me like I had an Amish bonnet and did not believe in the use of electricity. They did not understand that 'being judgemental' and making a judgement about the good and evil of an action were not equivalent. So, anything goes. O brave new world, that has such people in it. B.

Re: Dr Ed Davis and Heelspurs.com

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/15/01 at 23:53 (060522)

I am in the Seattle area. A nearby city--Puyallup.
Ed