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chiropractor

Posted by Elliott on 12/05/01 at 14:18 (066215)

I swear the Kinesiologist/Chiro. and NST Are helping me. My feet feel abouta one level of pain every time I leave there and neverreally go above a 4 anymore.
He says the nerves in my L5L3 area are aggravating my feet....I believe it.
The tingling has diminished as well. Not gone completely...but definitely less.
Does that sounf crazy? Have you tried chiro?

Re: oops....Chiro posted by Carmen

Carmen on 12/05/01 at 14:35 (066217)

Sorry I put the wrong name

Re: masquerading as me, eh? :-)

elliott on 12/05/01 at 15:38 (066226)

Sure sounds like it's your back/neck rather than peripheral.

Until now I've been afraid of going to a chiro; always viewed them as sort of quacks, as do most other doctors, and where I'd see merit in what they do, my impression is that the relief is temporary. And of course I just happened to hear of a few horror stories of people who went to a chiro for bulging disc-induced sciatica and got permanently messed up (you always hear the horror stories). Someone here posted their own horror story recently of getting messed up by an osteopath. But I'm so fed up of my sciatica, not to mention any surgical option, that I might just 'risk' that visit to a chiro. It must wait till January, though, when the switch I made to Blue Cross FFS, including chiro coverage, becomes effective.

What exactly is the chiro doing for you? I'd really like to know. Thanks.

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Re: masquerading as me, eh? :-)Gait and posture relationships

Ed Davis, DPM on 12/05/01 at 16:41 (066246)

I have always wanted to form a clinic or group consisting of various specialists who understand the relationships between posture and gait---how foot problems affect the back and visa versa. A lot of us, practicing in our own areas, can easily get tunnel vision. A well coordinated approach between podiatrists, orthopedists, podiatrists and chiropractors could help a lot of bad backs and hips out there. Getting a bunch of hard headed practitioners together is a different story.
Ed

Re: Elliott..we're mirroring again

CArmen H on 12/06/01 at 07:48 (066310)

We're definitely going through some of the same things. I am switching my insurance in January to BCBS PPO and won't be getting coverage until then for chiropractic, etc. So it's out of pocket now. Ouch. I have this to say about Chiro. I was raised on chiro. CAre...literally since I was a kid (my distant uncle was a chiro)and I have been a believer not a FIRM believer in it all my life. BUT I TOTALLY understand the 'Crackerpractor' fear you have. As my Chiropractor now says there are a lot of them out there that give the practice a very bad name.
The theory behind Chiro. is a GOOD one. It is definitely gaining more and more acceptance in the medical field. The one real key to Chiro is to find one that wants to fix your issues and NOT see you back . In other words have a PLAN just like a normal doctor. Whether it be five visits or 3 whatever they think will do it. BUT not tell you you have to keep coming back over and over and over to maintain the 'fix'. They should also be able to tell you HOW to strengthen the muscles around the manipulation so it HOLDS. If it doesn't HOLD they should be able to give you a general idea WHY it's not holding. Finding a good Chiro takes some research and a lot of questions. Some get defensive but those are the ones you say thank you for your time to...and hang up...and move on.
If you actually look at the spine..preferable a model of one you can see the nerves coming out the sides....bending the spine to the side impinges on these nerves and ANY type of bulge (SLIGHT or not) can cause pain and sensation.
I could go on and on and I can't say that there aren't some people who are very disapppointed in the outcome of Chiro. Care JUST like medical care. But if you have been through it all....and you're tired of hurting....maybe it's time to try it like you said? Also one thing I have found REALLY helped my sciatica is the stretching. It has taken about 4 months of REAL determination and dedication to do it every morning and night butthe sciatic shooting pain is gone and hasn't bothered me for weeks.
My Chiro/Kinesiologist (VERY important that you notice he is not JUST a chiro and I recommend seeing a Kines.) spent 45 minutes assessing me....talked about what he thought was going on and what I expected from his treatment. Almost an hour later I left with a good feeling about him. VERY important that you have this feeling about a chiro.
He said to me yesterday 'If a chiro is only interested in hearing the pops and cracks find another one. An adjustement should be gentle and effective starting with the lowest and easiest manipulation technique FIRST. If the adjustment doesn't take then move up to the next level of strength but NEVER forceful.'
So farthe burning in my back has not returned and the big toe 'sensation' is gone which was driving me NUTS. He made sure I understood that I may feel a little worse....after the first initial visits and that is an indication that the manipulations are starting to work. Some days may be better than others. BUT with so far I have been satisfied and the carpal tunnel burning is almost gone as well (neck adjustment fixed that first time).
I hope this long drawn out version of an explanation helps? Try B 6 too Elliott and Valerian...the B6 will keep your nerves health while this is all going on and the Valerian will calm the nerves at night. Works for me.

Re: Dr. Ed

CArmen H on 12/06/01 at 07:49 (066311)

Wouldn't that be a money maker???!!!!! I agree a lot of fixes could occur withthat kind of partnership.

Re: a few more questions

elliott on 12/06/01 at 09:21 (066316)

How long have you had your symptoms?

Can you describe the back manipulation? Does it hurt as much as EMG needles? :-)

If you find things recurring or getting worse, please consider going to a neurosurgeon (not neurologist :-)).

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Re: one-stop shopping!

elliott on 12/06/01 at 09:39 (066318)

where we can get $400 orthotics that don't work, useless chiro manipulations, and botched surgeries all under one roof!

Good idea, but I think that hardheadedness you mention would be prohibitive. For example, the chiro thinks the pod isn't needed, since the chiro can also prescribe orthotics and can do alignments to boot. The ortho thinks the chiro is voodoo doodoo and thinks he can do everything the pod can and more (that is, surgery or bust!). Pod is the least hardheaded and most willing to work with the others (can't say anything bad about a pod when speaking to a pod!), but is the only one. And how do they divvy up the money?

Another idea is that there would be a new field of specialist who exclusively handles the relationship between back/foot problems.

Good to see you back, Dr. Ed!

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Re: a few more questions

Carmen on 12/06/01 at 10:24 (066322)

I have had symptoms of Sciatica for 2 years. Bilateral hip pain (it's gone) and foot pain since June 2001. I have hardly any back pain at all now......BUT totally believe that even if your back isn't hurting doesn't mean it isn't referring pain. I requested a neurosurgeon referral and my GP wouldn't refer. He said a second opinion form another neurologist is acceptable but since surgery isn't in questions no go.
So I will get a second opinion on Dec. 27th from a neurologist. If I can find a neurosurgeon in jan...I'll go then when i don't need a referral make sense?

Re: a few more questions

elliott on 12/06/01 at 10:51 (066327)

Had your sciatica and other symptoms been fading anyway before you began going to the chiro? Not to sound skeptical, butI believe at least some who go to a chiro would slowly have been getting better anyway and then attribute their improvement to the chiro. In my case, it's been around 1.5 years of rather steady discomfort (with the usual bad days and better days), so if I go to a chiro in January and start getting better, I would attribute it directly to him, well, or to the psychological effects of thinking it's making me better. :-) Am I a skeptic or what? But just this morning, I saw a friend, who's had surgeries and much knee and back trouble, including sciatica, ever since a car accident years ago, and told him I was switching to BCBS. He asked why, and I said one reason is so I can go to a chiro. He said, and I quote, 'It's been nice knowing you.' Great sense of humor, only he wasn't kidding. He once went to a chiro that his mother swore by, and after the alignment he was in the worst pain of his life. He needed to go to another to undo the alignment of the first and get back to where he was, and he never went again.

You didn't answer what they do to the back. Press it and move it? Thanks.

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Re: To the skeptic...;-)

Carmen on 12/06/01 at 12:58 (066328)

We're all skeptical of things we've never really done...no worries.
I don't attribute my sciatica getting better to the NST and Chiro since I was stretching and on a STRICT regimen for months before I went to him. BUT the thing I do attribute to the NST is the fact that the BURNING in my back and feet is gone. It was there the day I went to the NST guy and it was gone when I left. To the Chiro I attribute the sensation in my toe and the pain in my hands and neck being gone. They were there when I went in and that evening GONE. So I understand what you mean and that is the exact approach I take to this too...'Was it there when I went in? Is it better because of them?' but I am very in touch with my pain and how consistent it's been and have paid good attention to it upon going to the Chiro. What he does to my back is to lay me on this table with the lower (HARD to explain)half movable like a pendulum (back and forth not up and down) he find the disk that gives me trouble (boy did he find it I felt it right away) and then he puts his knuckles or fingers on that spot HARD and manipulates the TABLE (NOT me) side to side opening my spine so the disk can move back into place and the nerve compression lessens. Does that makes sense? It takes morethan one visit ortwo in my case he hopes no more than 6 to get almost complete relief. The thing I lvoe about him is he spends 20-30 minutes with me....EVERY time. He doesn't pop crack and move me around and say good bye. He takes notes, listens to me and WANTS me to get better where I'll only come back if I develop any problems. NOT a week to week thing. MOST chiros (In my own experience) say 'Oh you need to come at least three times a week you've got serious trouble in your back blah blah blah....' and they just keep cracking and popping and NEVER say you're better.
I hope this helps? You can call me if you want and I'll try better to explain.
Just say so.
Also have you maybe looked into a less skeptical approach like the Egoscue Methods? I have heard nOTHING but success stories with this for back, sciatica etc.
It just seems to me that your sciatica has something to do with your spine and feet....just like me. I am not swearing this guy can fix me but I am feeling improvement and relief so far and that's worth it to me.

Re: thanks

elliott on 12/06/01 at 15:42 (066343)

Yes, your description of the back treatment makes things much clearer. No, I just can't buy into Egoscue; never heard of it, but a quick Web search on it suggests to this skeptic that its primary intent is to sell popular books and make money. Hearing nothing but success stories makes me all the more suspicious. (I've also heard about a popular book out there whose thesis is that just about all your back pain is in your mind, and curbing your anger will make it go away. The thesis of course extends even to the case where a bulging disc is detected. Great thesis, many swear by it, all you have to do for it to work is buy the book and buy into it. I'll save my money.) I guess what you're saying about chiro is that it's crucial to find the right one or else you can get screwed.

Unlike many who have sciatica without a clear diagnosis (for whom, I suspect, alternative approaches might have a better chance of success), a lumbar MRI clearly detected a bulging L4-L5 disc pressing on my nerve (although what caused it is unclear, and I could see a foot connection there, but knowing that doesn't undo the damage). One would think there would be a standard treatment regimen accepted by all in this case, but then one would be naive. I've already been to a big-name neurosurgeon (not neurologist--HAHAHAHAHAHA). He's Chief of this and Chief of that; the only thing missing is a wigwam. :-) In his opinion, chiro is not worthwhile (suprise) and PT is unlikely to work (surprise again), nor yoga, as a full cure at least. I think I believe him, but I just don't want surgery. But he didn't rush towards that, saying live with it as long as you can, since sometimes it gets better on its own (but gave that only 20% odds). Claims surgical success rate of 99% (better than the industry average of 90%--still high, but I've heard those kinds of odds before and came up short), you're out in just a day or two and then in seventh heaven and wondering why you waited so long to get it done. But he said it also has around a 15-20% 'recurrence' rate (the industry norm), i.e. where patient comes back with identical or similar pain a year or two later. This, he explained, is due not to a failed surgery, but rather to the fact that the patient's back was decrepit before surgery and is still decrepit after it and so can continue to have problems. (So maybe if one stretches and strengthens with yoga and the like, recurrence would be less likely. He does in fact recommend yoga post-surgery to his patients. He's also from the Far East, as many neurosurgeons seem to be.)

Really appreciate your taking the time to explain things. I guess we're now on a first-name basis--you dropped the H from your post. :-) For a while, we even *were* the same first name. :-) And now I can call if I need to! Thanks again.

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Re: well....

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 07:44 (066389)

I understand that you are VERY skeptical about 'non' conservative methods of treatment for chronic pain and issues that are long standing. BUT I have to say this....I would NEVER close my mind to ANYthing at this point. You have suffered a long time Elliott and the fear of never getting better could be EXACTLY what's stopping your progress. The mind is a VERY powerful tool when it comes to healing. You're correct that simply 'seeing' how the foot can be related to the back doesn't 'fix' the problem but in all reality 'seeing' this type of relation CAN fix the problem. REALLY. The neuro said 'live with it as long as you can'? WHY? When there are other alternatives out there. Big name or not, Wig Wam or not I would step outside the box when someone tells me I have to live with pain, discomfort and without the quality of lifeI used to enjoy.
Doctors with degrees are not always the best people to counsel us on pain.
Did you know you can fix back pain JUST by strengthening ALONE? You can stabilize your own spine with one simple move if you are determined enough?
There are SO many things out there to try, You haven't begun to tap the resources and it's possibly b/c they are 'alternative' resources....but maybe that's the lesson here? To try something and put your belief into things that you aren't familar with to open your mind to new ways of thinking?
I know you are thinking 'Carmen you are off your rocker...wacko! crazy girl!' But changing my way of thinking is a BIG piece of the missing healing puzzle in my life and since I have done that things have started to change...to get better.
With surgery and all the longstanding trauma you have already put your body through I would fear invasion morethan alternative remedies. I would exhaust ALL possiblities (conservative or alternative) before submitting to the pain and surgery.
The Egoscue method has developed a GREAT name and reputation and it truly makes sense. Honestly. When I called about it they called me back right away...explained everything to me and never were pushy about a thing. Iwanted to try NST and KINES. before heading into the Egoscue method...one thing at a time.
Anyway I guess what I am saying is that there are so many things that can HELP you with no REAL effort...no invasion...and can't be anything but HEALTHY for your mnd and body and I say Hell...Why not try it??
You can do all the yoga nad meditation and relaxation you want but if your mind is not at ease and in true belief in what you are doing you are more than likely wasting your time.
Does this make sense? I hope you don't see this as me saying 'Okay Elliott Get with it!!! Crazy man!!!' ;-)
I am simply saying that you are an intelligent person with will power and strength...(from what I can tell) so why not EXERCISE these powers in yourself to HEAL yourself the best you can??
:-)

Re: Carmen you are off your rocker...wacko! crazy girl!

elliott on 12/07/01 at 09:04 (066395)

Just kidding. Your own words, and no, I'm not thinking that. Appreciate your thoughts.

Actually, my point was that SOME view chiro as non-conservative treatment TOO. I JUST happened to run INTO another friend last night--almost uncanny, BUT there's a furniture sale at THE house across from me BEFORE the house transfers TO a new owner, and I and my friend AND his wife (both somewhat overweight and WITH sciatica problems, but they are LESS inclined to do exercise than ME, and I differ with THEM on that) all got out of OUR cars at the same time and started asking HOW we're all doing. (He's currently keeping HIS condition under control WITH Celebrex, at 2 x 200 mg daily. I'm trying 2 x 100 mg daily; didn't do THE slightest thing for my sciatica, BUT seems to be performing wonders on WHAT was nearly A crippled right foot.) They told me (again) ABOUT their relative they KNOW and a relative of a friend they know. One GOT messed up by PT, the other by a CHIRO. One has been SITTING at home since MAY virtually DISABLED since that treatment. My friend also TOLD me that his OWN big-name NEUROSURGEON (not neurologist :-)) told him THAT he does around 2 or 3 surgeries a MONTH to repair the damage DONE by chiros. So there's OTHER sides to the STORY.

Life is such that NOT everyone is 100% healthy or painfree ALL the time. To think OTHERWISE is naive. You do what YOU can do, you weigh the RISKS vs. the pain and LIMITATIONS and you make choices. Many on the TTS board are doing JUST that. So 'live with it as long as you can' may be genuinely SINCERE advice; could even be WISE. Doesn't mean that I have to ACCEPT it entirely. I mean, my FRIEND's neuro (surgeon, not logist) told HIM there's an 80% chance it will go AWAY, and MINE told ME there's an 80% chance it WON'T. We both have L4-L5; they can't both be right. (My neurosurgeon also said PT is very unlikely to do anything either.) I'm doing YOGA and love it; it really does HELP me achieve harmony AND balance, and DOES lessens THE sciatic pain. I'm cycling too. I have SOME reason to HOPE that my feet WILL heal, and maybe THAT will help my SCIATICA too. But regarding CHIRO and PT, gotta weigh THE risks (wish I knew exactly what they were). You see, I got these friends, and they got their STORIES. But I am giving SOME thought to CHIRO and PT, that is, I'm weighing the choices, especially when I'm convinced my sciatica won't go away by itself or with JUST yoga exclusively. And if you keep CAPITALIZING every sixth word or so, I'm gonna START thinking you're writing an ad for EGOSCUE. :-)

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Re: Spine and feet

Julie on 12/07/01 at 09:14 (066396)

Carmen, may I interject something here? My PF began, in the summer of last year, a couple of weeks after a minor back trauma that caused my L4-L5 disc to bulge and impinge on my right sciatic nerve. I suspected a connection, and when I saw my podiatrist, he not only agreed, but said that in his view many if not most cases of PF (including his own) are similarly caused. He encouraged me to continue with the treatment I'd already begun with my osteopath, and to add ultrasound.

Osteopaths are more common than chiropractors here in the UK, and are accepted by the mainstream medicine. Some GPs also have osteopathic qualifications, and most GPs will refer patients to osteopaths for structural problems they know they can't do anything to help. There are differences between osteopathy and chiropractic, but both work on structure and both can effectively help spinal problems.

A good practitioner will, as you say, want to get you better, not keep you coming, and will also tell you that although s/he may be able to put right something that has gone wrong, it's up to you to identify the cause of the problem and work to correct it: otherwise it will recur. Most osteopaths therefore recommend yoga, which at its best can re-align the spine (but there lies a difficulty, because not all styles/teachers/classes are appropriate for people dealing with injury - that's another topic, though).

As you know, I've always suspected that your foot and leg problems were related to your spine. I'm very glad that you've got a chiro you trust, and I truly hope he gets to the root of it.

Re: can you interject a little more?

elliott on 12/07/01 at 09:40 (066407)

(assuming we're on talking terms, of course; otherwise, maybe you can just interject to Carmen again. :-))

Can you say what treatment exactly did your osteopath do for your spine? Despite my problems, I have little restriction painwise on what yoga poses I can't attempt, so that part's OK. Getting more and more flexible and better-balanced as time goes on. Back itself barely hurts; it's just that I have sometimes severe sciatic discomfort when sitting, mainly on soft surfaces. Won't deny that walking on bum right foot and nervy left foot can be contributing. Wonder who has better success rates for bulging disc/sciatica, osteos or chiros. Maybe the risks are less for osteos than for chiros, but then check out Eileen C's post on the previous page. Here's an excerpt:

'I was sent to a pain clinic for TTS and came out of there with a permanently injured back which gives me more pain than the foot -- 24/7! Don't ever let an osteopath 'unlock your sacroiliac joint'!'

Sorry about her condition. THINKING ABOUT YOU, EILEEN C. (Oops, that belongs on the Social forum. :-)) If she's the one in a hundred thousand that such a thing happens to, then convince me those are the odds.

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Re: CaPiTaLiZiNg

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 10:12 (066424)

It's just my writing style there Ol Elliott my man....It's how I emphasize the important parts or try to stress how I feel about something....just like my dots...these....things.....it's my pause in thinking....which...I ....do ....a lot of.....
:-)
Well I hate for yoru friends that they are in such terrible condition from Chiropractors but I got worse from treatment by two PODs! adn I don't blame the practice...only the practictioner. So keep pondering it....look for a good one...a kinesiologist may make you feel better about it.
OKAY? :o)

Re: Sure

Julie on 12/07/01 at 11:27 (066429)

Elliott

My osteopath does mainly soft tissue work - massage to release muscles that have spasmed in response to trauma to intervertebral discs, with the aim of getting things moving again. I like this, because I believe, as she does, that 'clicking' isn't always necessary and that too much of it may not be a good thing. She brings to her work a deep knowledge of anatomy and especially of the spine and the nervous system, is unerring at spotting what is wrong (I always get my L4-L5 and my SI mixed up, but she never does) and her treatment is always appropriate for the condition. She will do manipulation when that is appropriate: i.e. to adjust and re-align vertebrae that have misplaced themselves for one reason or another. My own L4-L5 disc has begun to degenerate and protrude (old age/wear and tear) so when I saw her after the injury I mentioned, she did do a bit of manipulation and quite a lot of soft tissue work. Your L4-L5 bulge probably has another cause, as you're so much younger, so the treatment for you might be different.

I think both osteopathy and chiropractic have a great deal to offer, and I agree with Carmen that it might help you to have a look at it. I know it's harder to keep an open mind in an environment in which these disciplines are viewed with suspicion. Here they are widely accepted and almost everyone who can afford to go for treatment does - I don't think I know anyone who pooh-poohs them.

As for risk, I don't think it makes any difference. I don't know anything about the odds, but if I was as suspicious and apprehensive as you are I probably wouldn't take the risk: we all have to make our own decisions. But every procedure - indeed every action we take in life - carries a risk, and sure, there are horror stories about chiropractors and osteopaths both, but of what group of practitioners isn't that the case? (There's a story in the paper today about a surgeon who lost his rag with his colleagues during a routine operation and as a result the patient died - but I digress.)

I saw Eileen's post, and am still wondering what 'unlocking' the SI joint could have meant. But if he hurt her, and if the hurt wasn't rectifiable, I suppose she must have seen a charlatan. Carmen is right. When choosing a chiro or an osteo, be as careful as you would be when choosing any other practitioner. Ask questions.

I'd guess that yours is one of those chicken-and-egg situations - the sciatica probably contributed to the problems in your feet, and now favouring your bad foot when you walk is probably exacerbating the sciatica. Of course I don't know whether chiropractic or osteopathic treatment would help - but I would say it's worth investigating.

I'm very glad that yoga is helping, if not your feet, your state of mind.

Re: Clarification

Julie on 12/07/01 at 11:40 (066431)

My saying 'As for risk I don't think it makes any difference' was in response to your question about whether the risk factor is greater with an osteopath or a chiropractor. I didn't mean that the risk factor should be ignored.

Re: Jullie

CArmen on 12/07/01 at 11:59 (066433)

Thanks Julie...as always your input is much valued. I certainly hope I get to the bottom of this mess too. Would like to go for a walk again some day...and have a baby soon! But I will wait until my body is in better condition to handle pregnancy.
:-)

Re: weighing the risks

elliott on 12/07/01 at 12:56 (066450)

Thanks for your comments.

Sure, everything in life carries risks. I just went out at lunch for a 12-mile bike ride; that carried risk, which apparently I'm willing to take (well, since I can't run :-)). Clearly some things involve more risk than others, and it's not unreasonable to have an idea of what the risk is. If the amount of risk is unknown, that increases the risk, or at least the uncertainty over exactly what the risk is.

Sure, every set of practioners has risk associated with them, but there is one difference between chiros and all the others: the others carry minimal serious risk unless you opt for surgery, whereas you go to a chiro not to chat and discuss options, but rather for an alignment, which carries risk. Choosing carefully usually means knowing others who went to the chiro and were happy, but of course not everyone's body reacts the same, even to similar treatment. I have no idea either of how much of the risk is attributable to the chiro's technique and how much to the uncertain state of decrepitude in the patient which evoking such an unpredictable reaction. Knowing even this might help: My back is otherwise reasonably strong due to yoga, I'm in overall decent shape due to cycling, yoga, and the remnants of my running days (but the remnants are beginning to decrease, the tummy beginning to increase :-)), so if my decrepitude risk is minimized, maybe I'd be a better risk, say, than my overweight friend who never exercises. But let someone convince me of that too. The risk of chiros is certainly more than anecdotal, but beyond that, it's hard to get a handle on it. Trying to get that handle first is not unreasonable.

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Re: are you saying you can't walk? (nm)

elliott on 12/07/01 at 12:59 (066452)

.

Re: are you saying you can't walk? (nm)

CArmen on 12/07/01 at 13:54 (066454)

Haven't walked for exercise (power walking treadmill walking etc) since June.
I wasn't able to step on my right foot until I gothe NST done. Literally not able to put full weight on it. It was bad news.

Re: due to nerve pain, or something else? (nm)

elliott on 12/07/01 at 14:08 (066456)

.

Re: who knows...

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 15:34 (066462)

I had a pain in my arch for three days that was killing me. I mean it really HURT.
He worked on it and I was fine when I left...the burning has yet to return to my feet since the first NST treatment.

Re: weighing the risks

Julie on 12/07/01 at 15:38 (066463)

Perfectly reasonable, and if you succeed in getting the handle perhaps you'll be more favourably inclined towards a treatment that might help you. I can tell you only that whenever I've had osteopathic treatment it has been by trained, knowledgeable, caring practitioners, and it has been helpful. But your gut feeling is clearly that chiropractic and osteopathy aren't for you, and I wouldn't try to convince you that they are, or indeed try to persuade anyone out of any gut feeling.

Re: can you interject a little more?

eileenc on 12/08/01 at 09:07 (066506)

Unfortunately I have found several other people on all kinds of forums here on the internet who were injured by chiropractic/osteopathic back manipulations.

Even after the injury two more doctors sent me for more chiropractic care. I tried to be a 'compliant' patient, but they just kept hurting me!!!

If I had not simply refused to let them touch me any more, they would have kept on doing the same manipulation that 'took away my life' in the first place!

I also know of a few people who have been helped; and many who luckily were neither harmed nor helped.

Looks like it's nothing more than a 'crapshoot'.

Re: Sure

eileenc on 12/08/01 at 09:22 (066509)

'The joint was unlocked today with a simple osteopathic manipulative maneuver to free up the sacroiliac joint which it did.'

Straight from the notes of the osteopath who severely and permanently injured a back which was not hurting in the least when I walked into the pain clinic for TTS in 1997.

He is a noted pain Dr. in this area with an award winning clinic.

I think that he felt that he had to do something else other that just say, ' Yes, you have TTS. Let's do some pain meds.'. Unfortunately he just used way too much force on a 115 lb. body which he noted as being extremely flexible right beforehand.

What can I say?

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/08/01 at 11:28 (066526)

Eileen

I know you had a bad experience with the osteopath, and I'm sorry if I sounded disbelieving of you in my earlier post. I wasn't addressing your experience, just wondering, in the context of my response to Elliott's, what 'unlocking' the sacroiliac joint might mean.

I'm still wondering. The SI is an extremely stable joint, with very little movement at its articulations: it has to be, to maintain stability of the pelvis, which has to support the lumbar/thoracic/cervical spine above it, and indeed the entire torso and head. Problems with the SI usually start when it becomes hypermobile (i.e. when its ligaments allow it more capacity for movement than it's meant to have) as yours clearly was even before it was mis-treated.

I also wonder why your SI was being treated at all, because I can't see what relation it could have had - even if you had problems with it and you say you didn't - to your TTS.

I hope you reported your experience with this practitioner and the effect it has had on your back to his professional association.

We all have to speak from our own experience. Yours was a bad one, and you naturally judge from it. But your experience doesn't invalidate the practices of osteopathy or chiropractic. Both are legitimate professions with rigorous training programmes, regulated by bodies which oversee and monitor their practitioners.

The feet, legs and spine are a continuum: what goes wrong in any part of it it may affect structures elsewhere along it. Problems with the feet, such as PF and the various tendonitises, can and often do originate with problems in the spine. When such problems can be identified, osteopathy and chiropractic are valid treatment options.

In this connection, I cheer Dr Ed Davis's idea of teams of podiatrists, orthopaedists and chiropractors working together to solve people's foot and back problems. It's certainly time the myriad branches of the medical complex stopped regarding human beings as isolated bits and pieces and took a more holistic approach.

Re: 3 days?!

elliott on 12/08/01 at 18:24 (066547)

I mean, that's nothing. That doesn't even count here on Heelspurs. Coulda gone away by itself. Sincerely,

Mr. Skeptic

Re: crapshoot

elliott on 12/08/01 at 18:25 (066548)

Julie, there's the answer to my handle question. :-)

Re: Eileen's description sounds more like what I hear

elliott on 12/08/01 at 19:03 (066549)

Julie, note that Eileen said he was a noted doctor at an award-winning clinic. It's often like that. They're not necessarily charlatans and quacks, well, at least within the limitations of their own profession. Her back was fine beforehand, and now it's not. And that for TTS. Unconscionable. Chiros often blab away to healthy people without problems that their bodies are out of kilter. They have all kinds of exotic tests to prove that. One came to my work a while ago for a free demo, and more than 9 out of 10 were told they could use alignments. Chiros often have a philosophy, for better or worse, of making the body 'perfect', whereas a PT is more of the philosophy of getting rid of the hurt. (So told me a PT friend of mine. As an aside, I have an acquaintance who is a chiropractor. I spoke to him a few times while going through the TTS problems and surgeries. He claims that with back alignments and possibly foot alignments which, unlike many, he is also certified to do, and orthotics, that he has a 90% success rate in curing TTS in runners. When I told that to the legendary PT I went to a while back post-shoulder surgery, he had a one-word reply: 'Bullsh&t!' I never went to that chiro, even though I know another who went to him for a back alignment and said he was fine; I just didn't buy into it. BTW, I would like to know how alignments would have separated the humongous vein found at surgery pressing on my nerve. And I'm getting tired of being told so frequently that I just happened to fall in the 10%.) Eileen has heard of many others too who got in trouble, which sounds more in line with what I've heard.

Don't get me wrong: Even if I am skeptical, I want to consider chiro as a possible option for sciatica to avoid both a lifetime of discomfort and the risks of surgery. Really, I do. However, you can call it noninvasive, but it is not at all without risk. You don't seem to perceive it as being of as much risk as Eileen and I do. What can I say? You're braver than I. You're too nonconservative, girl! (Just a cutesy play on words from the past. Please laugh!) It's just that I've heard these stories, some firsthand from people I know. But yes, there others I know that go for various problems without hesitation (most of whom seem to keep going forever as needed for pain relief, but are grateful for getting that). Just want a handle on the odds. Crapshoot?

---------

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Re: PS

elliott on 12/08/01 at 23:41 (066555)

Julie, ignore my offbeat humor if need be; by now you know that's my style and I intend it to evoke a chuckle. Hard to tell if anyone's ever laughing, though; even if I fail, I mean no harm. I appreciate your advice too, and may very well take it and visit a chiro, possibly as early as mid-January when new insurance permits. I have one in mind, one a co-worker claims eliminated bulging disc pain in his wife and whose manipulations are of milder form, not the clicking type. But I really am concerned. While I share the view with some here that short temporary pain is no pain at all in seeking relief from things like lifelong TTS and PF pain, it seems there are too many examples of chiros doing permanent damage. It almost is as if they are forcing patients not ready for it or needing it at all into an advanced yoga pose, leaving some permanently damaged.

Eileen, I am just so sorry for you. Hope things straighten out.

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Re: PS

Julie on 12/09/01 at 03:33 (066559)

Hi there Elliott

:)

I do know you mean no harm: no worries about that. On the contrary, you're very helpful to people here, especially those dealing with TTS, about which your experience and ability to research has given you a great deal of knowledge. I appreciate that, and I'm sure others do too. Your compassion for Tammie and your offer to take her to a specialist the other day was really very moving.

And I do think you are very funny sometimes - but don't forget that you can't 'hear' laughter in cyberspace.

:) :)

But I have to say this: I don't like arguing. If I ask someone for information about their experience, and they give it to me, I go away and think about it and see how it enlarges and integrates with what I already know. You asked me for information about my experience, and I gave it, and your response was to argue with me about chiropractic. It's probably just your way of winkling out more information, but I guess I just don't go for that way of communicating - it gets to be more like a breathless pingpong match than a discussion. I know you thrive on it, but to me it's wearying - I feel that what I've said is being thrown back in my face, and then I'm drawn into elaborating on it. It all takes time.

Please let me make myself clear. I have had helpful treatment from osteopaths, and that's the experience from which I speak. But I'm not 'selling' osteopathic or chiropractic treatment. I joined the discussion because I thought I had something to contribute to it from my experience. I have no information to offer about the risks and the odds: I simply don't know. All I can tell you is that my experiences with osteopaths have been good experiences, that I've never had any harmful treatment, and that the osteopaths I've known have been careful, thoughtful, sensitive practitioners. You can put my experience into the bag with what you already know if it's any use to you, but it's all I can offer.

Here in England osteopathy is - almost - mainstream, not fringe, and generally considered a valid choice of treatment for back problems. In the course of my work in yoga I've known many students and colleagues, and friends, who have had osteopathic treatment. Casting my mind back 30 years and more I can't recall any horror stories. (Which doesn't mean there aren't any, and like you, I am very sorry that Eileen's experience was such a bad one.)

Now this is the most important thing. I did not advise you to seek treatment from a chiro. You asked me about my experience, and I told you about it. Your response was to ask me to 'convince you'. Mine to that was to say clearly (I thought): as your gut feeling is that this treatment option is not for you, I won't try to convince you about it or persuade you to go for it. I meant that.

After September 11, lots of people were understandably very frightened of flying, and still are. My personal feeling is that increased security probably makes it safer to fly than it was before, and I flew to Crete without trepidation on September 25. On December 30 I'm flying to south India (via a refuelling stop in Bahrain). But I wouldn't for a moment dream of trying to talk anyone else out of their fear.

And I would not and did not try to persuade you out of your skepticism about chiropractic. If you decide to go, having weighed the risks and assessed the odds, I hope you will find a good practitioner. The best one may not be the one with the medals and awards.

Whatever you decide, I wish you free of pain - and running again.

Thank you again for all the help you give people on this board.

Sorry this has got so long. Now I must go and do some work.

All the best

Julie

Re: Eileen

eileenc on 12/09/01 at 08:58 (066562)

I did say that I knew people who were helped by chiropractic care.

The pain clinic osteopath was looking for something to do because the foot doctor who had sent me to him mentioned intermittent back pain. Duh, with TTS I was favoring my foot and limping. Of course that will affect your back after 10 months!

He thoroughly examined my back, asking me to perform several dagnostic maneuvers,and when he could find nothing (nothing to find as my perfect x-rays and MRI showed him) he dug his thumb into my sacroiliac joint so hard that it literally left a black-and-blue thumbprint the next day. Of course my totally pain-free back would hurt with that kind of pressure!

The maneuver was the traditional lie on your side, pull the shoulders forward while pushing the pelvis backwards. It popped, he told me not to move, left the room and quickly returned with a syringe to 'keep down the infammation'. Of course I had no pain because he did not tell me (I asked) that he had put an anesthetic in the shot. Three hours later the pain, which I carry to this day, (over 4 years later) began with a vengeance.Next to his thumbprint was a large bruise from the damaged joint. There is a chance he also ripped the synovial sac inside the joint.

I know that there are great osteopaths. In fact, I am taking my life into my hands next week and going to another osteopath who is supposed to be one of the best back surgeons in this area -- yeah, I said surgeon. It has gone that far.

I know that these people are human and make mistakes. Thing is, why was I sent to 2 more chiroprators who did the same maneuver -- even when I told them that it hurt? That is where I have the biggest problem.

If you suffer long enough with TTS, you will probably end up with back problems, eventually. Maybe your osteopaths in the UK are much better trained in the osteopathic part of their education that our Drs. are.

I doubt that very few people have been damaged as badly as I, but it is a risk to consider. Even those people I know who do get some relief from chiroprators must go on a regular basis or else their pain comes back. My question: why aren't they told that they need to get to the root of their problem before it tis too late?

Answer; $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Re: ALL

Carmen on 12/09/01 at 09:35 (066563)

wow did this turn into a long one while I was away for a day!
In short...trusting someone with your health, mind nad body is totally a crapshoot with anything PERIOD. You never know how your body wil react to ANY type of treatment. People who are asked about Chiro care that have had a bad treatment (or who didn't do their homework before findng someone to work on them) could be just like people who don't take vitamins and are asked about herbalists and naturopathic doctors....and would answer or reply with high skepticism. Life is one big crapshoot anyway....it's what you choose to do with the things you're given (tools, outcomes, doctors, etc.) that make it worth the while.
Anyway...I think Dr. Weil has some great points in the book Spontaneous Healing that could speak to the skeptic in us all. One thing he speaks of is the 'successful patient doesn't take no for an answer and doesn'tgive up'.
:o)

Re: humour and knowledge, that's all

elliott on 12/09/01 at 10:36 (066568)

Your post still portrays me as a sort of bad guy; that's OK. But if there's one thing I need here--we all need here--is some humour in our posts. I have never seen any in yours, not even a shred, ever. Good advice and information is great, but your tone is always way too serious. My plan is to wear you down till you show some humour. Hopefully that will happen sooner, rather than later (When I'm 64?!?). Wherever you are, I'm gonna make you make me laugh. You can't hide in England, you can't hide in Crete. You will make me laugh. Say something funny. I dare you.

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Re: humour and knowledge, that's all

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:39 (066574)

Hi Elliott

:)

I'm laughing my head off right now. Honest.

You do wear me out with your arguing, but you'll never wear me down. No, not ever. I shall remain - for you - just as humourless as you make me out to be.

And I don't think you're a bad guy. I made it quite clear that I think the opposite. I think you're great on this board. But you argue with me whenever I say anything, and that somehow has a funny sort of effect on my sense of humour. Oh, I forgot - I don't have one. Sorry.

:) again. Now I'm off to look up some jokes for you. See you around. If I can find any.

Re: Carmen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:49 (066575)

Amen to that, Carmen. What you choose to do with the things you're given really is what matters. Personal responsibility - we all have to take it. And trust is vitally important: all exchanges between people and their doctors and practitioners (of whatever kind) go better if there is trust on both sides. Healing happens in a relationship, or so I believe.

Now don't go away again. My sparring partner and I need you for refereeing duties.

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:57 (066576)

Eileen that is awful, really awful. And it sounds from what you say as though the chiro knew he'd made a bad mistake (why otherwise would he have given you a painkilling injection). I think he might have sprained your SI, and knew it. The problem with the SI is that once the ligaments have overstretched, they don't go back again, and the joint is left hypermobile. It sounds as though that might be what happened to you. I'm very sorry, and I think it's extremely brave of you to put yourself on the table again - and I hope the guy you see this time has a better idea of how to treat you.

Have you been given strengthening and stabilizing exercises for the pelvis? When ligaments aren't doing their job (allowing safe movement of a joint) the muscles surrounding it need to be strong to compensate, especially when one is - as you say you are - over-flexible.

Of course I'm guessing at what your ongoing problem is - but strengthening and stabilizing are a good idea in any case.

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:57 (066578)

Eileen that is awful, really awful. And it sounds from what you say as though the chiro knew he'd made a bad mistake (why otherwise would he have given you a painkilling injection). I think he might have sprained your SI, and knew it. The problem with the SI is that once the ligaments have overstretched, they don't go back again, and the joint is left hypermobile. It sounds as though that might be what happened to you. I'm very sorry, and I think it's extremely brave of you to put yourself on the table again - and I hope the guy you see this time has a better idea of how to treat you.

Have you been given strengthening and stabilizing exercises for the pelvis? When ligaments aren't doing their job (allowing safe movement of a joint) the muscles surrounding it need to be strong to compensate, especially when one is - as you say you are - over-flexible.

Of course I'm guessing at what your ongoing problem is - but strengthening and stabilizing are a good idea in any case.

Re: OK, good start!

elliott on 12/09/01 at 13:47 (066584)

That last sentence classifies as a shred. :-)

Re: Eileen - PS re your question

Julie on 12/09/01 at 16:29 (066593)

I missed the question in your last paragraph (about why people aren't told they need to get to the root of their problem). I think that's a real litmus test. A good, honest practitioner will tell you that s/he may be able to help you up to a point, but that it rests with you to identify the root cause of your problem, and address it so that the problem is less likely to recur. The best practitioners don't want the people who seek their help to become dependent on them.

Here's an example. My husband, who is a painter, developed low back pain by always bending down to the same side to pick up the sheets of paper he uses to wipe his brushes. He worked out that this was causing his problem only with the help of our osteopath, who treated him but insisted that some habitual repetitive movement he was doing had to be the culprit, and kept at him until by observation and process of elimination he realized what it was.

(Another litmus test is - of course - 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. Alas - your guy hadn't heard about that.)

Re: no way

Carmen on 12/10/01 at 12:41 (066626)

There is no way this was going away by itself.....I have had pain in my feet since June and it had never been that bad. I mean BAD. I have always been able to walk...not comfortably and hobbling at times but this was like nothing I have felt before. When I went in there I was miserable with a CAPITAL (yes I did it again Elliott CAPITAL) M.
I left still with discomfot but not that awful crampiy, knotted hot feeling in my foot.
think what ya will Mr. non believer....but I know it was the NST....
know it know it know it!
Don't get the Kines. and the NST confused as most skeptics do. ;-)

Re: no time to talk now

elliott on 12/10/01 at 13:20 (066628)

Gotta run. Have had a twitch for the last hour or so, which is long enough for me; I can just tell with these kinds of things. Leaving right now to get it fixed. I'm gonna first get me some KINES to loosen up, throw in a little osteo, pour on a drop of NST, and round it out with a bit of ultrasound and phonopheresis (sp?). Maybe get my biweekly chiro alignment for good measure. This combo always works, whatever's bothering me. Don't mind if the docs have a logjam of patients either; plan to read Dr. Weil and Egoscue books in the waiting room. You know, I'm feeling better already just thinking about it all!

PS--I'll be busy next week too: massage therapy on Monday, ART on Tuesday,...

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Re: Don't forget

CArmen on 12/10/01 at 19:32 (066658)

Elliott!!!!! WAit Wait wait!!!! Don't go! You've forgotten your Herbs and aromatherapy oils!

Re: oops....Chiro posted by Carmen

Carmen on 12/05/01 at 14:35 (066217)

Sorry I put the wrong name

Re: masquerading as me, eh? :-)

elliott on 12/05/01 at 15:38 (066226)

Sure sounds like it's your back/neck rather than peripheral.

Until now I've been afraid of going to a chiro; always viewed them as sort of quacks, as do most other doctors, and where I'd see merit in what they do, my impression is that the relief is temporary. And of course I just happened to hear of a few horror stories of people who went to a chiro for bulging disc-induced sciatica and got permanently messed up (you always hear the horror stories). Someone here posted their own horror story recently of getting messed up by an osteopath. But I'm so fed up of my sciatica, not to mention any surgical option, that I might just 'risk' that visit to a chiro. It must wait till January, though, when the switch I made to Blue Cross FFS, including chiro coverage, becomes effective.

What exactly is the chiro doing for you? I'd really like to know. Thanks.

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Re: masquerading as me, eh? :-)Gait and posture relationships

Ed Davis, DPM on 12/05/01 at 16:41 (066246)

I have always wanted to form a clinic or group consisting of various specialists who understand the relationships between posture and gait---how foot problems affect the back and visa versa. A lot of us, practicing in our own areas, can easily get tunnel vision. A well coordinated approach between podiatrists, orthopedists, podiatrists and chiropractors could help a lot of bad backs and hips out there. Getting a bunch of hard headed practitioners together is a different story.
Ed

Re: Elliott..we're mirroring again

CArmen H on 12/06/01 at 07:48 (066310)

We're definitely going through some of the same things. I am switching my insurance in January to BCBS PPO and won't be getting coverage until then for chiropractic, etc. So it's out of pocket now. Ouch. I have this to say about Chiro. I was raised on chiro. CAre...literally since I was a kid (my distant uncle was a chiro)and I have been a believer not a FIRM believer in it all my life. BUT I TOTALLY understand the 'Crackerpractor' fear you have. As my Chiropractor now says there are a lot of them out there that give the practice a very bad name.
The theory behind Chiro. is a GOOD one. It is definitely gaining more and more acceptance in the medical field. The one real key to Chiro is to find one that wants to fix your issues and NOT see you back . In other words have a PLAN just like a normal doctor. Whether it be five visits or 3 whatever they think will do it. BUT not tell you you have to keep coming back over and over and over to maintain the 'fix'. They should also be able to tell you HOW to strengthen the muscles around the manipulation so it HOLDS. If it doesn't HOLD they should be able to give you a general idea WHY it's not holding. Finding a good Chiro takes some research and a lot of questions. Some get defensive but those are the ones you say thank you for your time to...and hang up...and move on.
If you actually look at the spine..preferable a model of one you can see the nerves coming out the sides....bending the spine to the side impinges on these nerves and ANY type of bulge (SLIGHT or not) can cause pain and sensation.
I could go on and on and I can't say that there aren't some people who are very disapppointed in the outcome of Chiro. Care JUST like medical care. But if you have been through it all....and you're tired of hurting....maybe it's time to try it like you said? Also one thing I have found REALLY helped my sciatica is the stretching. It has taken about 4 months of REAL determination and dedication to do it every morning and night butthe sciatic shooting pain is gone and hasn't bothered me for weeks.
My Chiro/Kinesiologist (VERY important that you notice he is not JUST a chiro and I recommend seeing a Kines.) spent 45 minutes assessing me....talked about what he thought was going on and what I expected from his treatment. Almost an hour later I left with a good feeling about him. VERY important that you have this feeling about a chiro.
He said to me yesterday 'If a chiro is only interested in hearing the pops and cracks find another one. An adjustement should be gentle and effective starting with the lowest and easiest manipulation technique FIRST. If the adjustment doesn't take then move up to the next level of strength but NEVER forceful.'
So farthe burning in my back has not returned and the big toe 'sensation' is gone which was driving me NUTS. He made sure I understood that I may feel a little worse....after the first initial visits and that is an indication that the manipulations are starting to work. Some days may be better than others. BUT with so far I have been satisfied and the carpal tunnel burning is almost gone as well (neck adjustment fixed that first time).
I hope this long drawn out version of an explanation helps? Try B 6 too Elliott and Valerian...the B6 will keep your nerves health while this is all going on and the Valerian will calm the nerves at night. Works for me.

Re: Dr. Ed

CArmen H on 12/06/01 at 07:49 (066311)

Wouldn't that be a money maker???!!!!! I agree a lot of fixes could occur withthat kind of partnership.

Re: a few more questions

elliott on 12/06/01 at 09:21 (066316)

How long have you had your symptoms?

Can you describe the back manipulation? Does it hurt as much as EMG needles? :-)

If you find things recurring or getting worse, please consider going to a neurosurgeon (not neurologist :-)).

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Re: one-stop shopping!

elliott on 12/06/01 at 09:39 (066318)

where we can get $400 orthotics that don't work, useless chiro manipulations, and botched surgeries all under one roof!

Good idea, but I think that hardheadedness you mention would be prohibitive. For example, the chiro thinks the pod isn't needed, since the chiro can also prescribe orthotics and can do alignments to boot. The ortho thinks the chiro is voodoo doodoo and thinks he can do everything the pod can and more (that is, surgery or bust!). Pod is the least hardheaded and most willing to work with the others (can't say anything bad about a pod when speaking to a pod!), but is the only one. And how do they divvy up the money?

Another idea is that there would be a new field of specialist who exclusively handles the relationship between back/foot problems.

Good to see you back, Dr. Ed!

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Re: a few more questions

Carmen on 12/06/01 at 10:24 (066322)

I have had symptoms of Sciatica for 2 years. Bilateral hip pain (it's gone) and foot pain since June 2001. I have hardly any back pain at all now......BUT totally believe that even if your back isn't hurting doesn't mean it isn't referring pain. I requested a neurosurgeon referral and my GP wouldn't refer. He said a second opinion form another neurologist is acceptable but since surgery isn't in questions no go.
So I will get a second opinion on Dec. 27th from a neurologist. If I can find a neurosurgeon in jan...I'll go then when i don't need a referral make sense?

Re: a few more questions

elliott on 12/06/01 at 10:51 (066327)

Had your sciatica and other symptoms been fading anyway before you began going to the chiro? Not to sound skeptical, butI believe at least some who go to a chiro would slowly have been getting better anyway and then attribute their improvement to the chiro. In my case, it's been around 1.5 years of rather steady discomfort (with the usual bad days and better days), so if I go to a chiro in January and start getting better, I would attribute it directly to him, well, or to the psychological effects of thinking it's making me better. :-) Am I a skeptic or what? But just this morning, I saw a friend, who's had surgeries and much knee and back trouble, including sciatica, ever since a car accident years ago, and told him I was switching to BCBS. He asked why, and I said one reason is so I can go to a chiro. He said, and I quote, 'It's been nice knowing you.' Great sense of humor, only he wasn't kidding. He once went to a chiro that his mother swore by, and after the alignment he was in the worst pain of his life. He needed to go to another to undo the alignment of the first and get back to where he was, and he never went again.

You didn't answer what they do to the back. Press it and move it? Thanks.

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Re: To the skeptic...;-)

Carmen on 12/06/01 at 12:58 (066328)

We're all skeptical of things we've never really done...no worries.
I don't attribute my sciatica getting better to the NST and Chiro since I was stretching and on a STRICT regimen for months before I went to him. BUT the thing I do attribute to the NST is the fact that the BURNING in my back and feet is gone. It was there the day I went to the NST guy and it was gone when I left. To the Chiro I attribute the sensation in my toe and the pain in my hands and neck being gone. They were there when I went in and that evening GONE. So I understand what you mean and that is the exact approach I take to this too...'Was it there when I went in? Is it better because of them?' but I am very in touch with my pain and how consistent it's been and have paid good attention to it upon going to the Chiro. What he does to my back is to lay me on this table with the lower (HARD to explain)half movable like a pendulum (back and forth not up and down) he find the disk that gives me trouble (boy did he find it I felt it right away) and then he puts his knuckles or fingers on that spot HARD and manipulates the TABLE (NOT me) side to side opening my spine so the disk can move back into place and the nerve compression lessens. Does that makes sense? It takes morethan one visit ortwo in my case he hopes no more than 6 to get almost complete relief. The thing I lvoe about him is he spends 20-30 minutes with me....EVERY time. He doesn't pop crack and move me around and say good bye. He takes notes, listens to me and WANTS me to get better where I'll only come back if I develop any problems. NOT a week to week thing. MOST chiros (In my own experience) say 'Oh you need to come at least three times a week you've got serious trouble in your back blah blah blah....' and they just keep cracking and popping and NEVER say you're better.
I hope this helps? You can call me if you want and I'll try better to explain.
Just say so.
Also have you maybe looked into a less skeptical approach like the Egoscue Methods? I have heard nOTHING but success stories with this for back, sciatica etc.
It just seems to me that your sciatica has something to do with your spine and feet....just like me. I am not swearing this guy can fix me but I am feeling improvement and relief so far and that's worth it to me.

Re: thanks

elliott on 12/06/01 at 15:42 (066343)

Yes, your description of the back treatment makes things much clearer. No, I just can't buy into Egoscue; never heard of it, but a quick Web search on it suggests to this skeptic that its primary intent is to sell popular books and make money. Hearing nothing but success stories makes me all the more suspicious. (I've also heard about a popular book out there whose thesis is that just about all your back pain is in your mind, and curbing your anger will make it go away. The thesis of course extends even to the case where a bulging disc is detected. Great thesis, many swear by it, all you have to do for it to work is buy the book and buy into it. I'll save my money.) I guess what you're saying about chiro is that it's crucial to find the right one or else you can get screwed.

Unlike many who have sciatica without a clear diagnosis (for whom, I suspect, alternative approaches might have a better chance of success), a lumbar MRI clearly detected a bulging L4-L5 disc pressing on my nerve (although what caused it is unclear, and I could see a foot connection there, but knowing that doesn't undo the damage). One would think there would be a standard treatment regimen accepted by all in this case, but then one would be naive. I've already been to a big-name neurosurgeon (not neurologist--HAHAHAHAHAHA). He's Chief of this and Chief of that; the only thing missing is a wigwam. :-) In his opinion, chiro is not worthwhile (suprise) and PT is unlikely to work (surprise again), nor yoga, as a full cure at least. I think I believe him, but I just don't want surgery. But he didn't rush towards that, saying live with it as long as you can, since sometimes it gets better on its own (but gave that only 20% odds). Claims surgical success rate of 99% (better than the industry average of 90%--still high, but I've heard those kinds of odds before and came up short), you're out in just a day or two and then in seventh heaven and wondering why you waited so long to get it done. But he said it also has around a 15-20% 'recurrence' rate (the industry norm), i.e. where patient comes back with identical or similar pain a year or two later. This, he explained, is due not to a failed surgery, but rather to the fact that the patient's back was decrepit before surgery and is still decrepit after it and so can continue to have problems. (So maybe if one stretches and strengthens with yoga and the like, recurrence would be less likely. He does in fact recommend yoga post-surgery to his patients. He's also from the Far East, as many neurosurgeons seem to be.)

Really appreciate your taking the time to explain things. I guess we're now on a first-name basis--you dropped the H from your post. :-) For a while, we even *were* the same first name. :-) And now I can call if I need to! Thanks again.

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Re: well....

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 07:44 (066389)

I understand that you are VERY skeptical about 'non' conservative methods of treatment for chronic pain and issues that are long standing. BUT I have to say this....I would NEVER close my mind to ANYthing at this point. You have suffered a long time Elliott and the fear of never getting better could be EXACTLY what's stopping your progress. The mind is a VERY powerful tool when it comes to healing. You're correct that simply 'seeing' how the foot can be related to the back doesn't 'fix' the problem but in all reality 'seeing' this type of relation CAN fix the problem. REALLY. The neuro said 'live with it as long as you can'? WHY? When there are other alternatives out there. Big name or not, Wig Wam or not I would step outside the box when someone tells me I have to live with pain, discomfort and without the quality of lifeI used to enjoy.
Doctors with degrees are not always the best people to counsel us on pain.
Did you know you can fix back pain JUST by strengthening ALONE? You can stabilize your own spine with one simple move if you are determined enough?
There are SO many things out there to try, You haven't begun to tap the resources and it's possibly b/c they are 'alternative' resources....but maybe that's the lesson here? To try something and put your belief into things that you aren't familar with to open your mind to new ways of thinking?
I know you are thinking 'Carmen you are off your rocker...wacko! crazy girl!' But changing my way of thinking is a BIG piece of the missing healing puzzle in my life and since I have done that things have started to change...to get better.
With surgery and all the longstanding trauma you have already put your body through I would fear invasion morethan alternative remedies. I would exhaust ALL possiblities (conservative or alternative) before submitting to the pain and surgery.
The Egoscue method has developed a GREAT name and reputation and it truly makes sense. Honestly. When I called about it they called me back right away...explained everything to me and never were pushy about a thing. Iwanted to try NST and KINES. before heading into the Egoscue method...one thing at a time.
Anyway I guess what I am saying is that there are so many things that can HELP you with no REAL effort...no invasion...and can't be anything but HEALTHY for your mnd and body and I say Hell...Why not try it??
You can do all the yoga nad meditation and relaxation you want but if your mind is not at ease and in true belief in what you are doing you are more than likely wasting your time.
Does this make sense? I hope you don't see this as me saying 'Okay Elliott Get with it!!! Crazy man!!!' ;-)
I am simply saying that you are an intelligent person with will power and strength...(from what I can tell) so why not EXERCISE these powers in yourself to HEAL yourself the best you can??
:-)

Re: Carmen you are off your rocker...wacko! crazy girl!

elliott on 12/07/01 at 09:04 (066395)

Just kidding. Your own words, and no, I'm not thinking that. Appreciate your thoughts.

Actually, my point was that SOME view chiro as non-conservative treatment TOO. I JUST happened to run INTO another friend last night--almost uncanny, BUT there's a furniture sale at THE house across from me BEFORE the house transfers TO a new owner, and I and my friend AND his wife (both somewhat overweight and WITH sciatica problems, but they are LESS inclined to do exercise than ME, and I differ with THEM on that) all got out of OUR cars at the same time and started asking HOW we're all doing. (He's currently keeping HIS condition under control WITH Celebrex, at 2 x 200 mg daily. I'm trying 2 x 100 mg daily; didn't do THE slightest thing for my sciatica, BUT seems to be performing wonders on WHAT was nearly A crippled right foot.) They told me (again) ABOUT their relative they KNOW and a relative of a friend they know. One GOT messed up by PT, the other by a CHIRO. One has been SITTING at home since MAY virtually DISABLED since that treatment. My friend also TOLD me that his OWN big-name NEUROSURGEON (not neurologist :-)) told him THAT he does around 2 or 3 surgeries a MONTH to repair the damage DONE by chiros. So there's OTHER sides to the STORY.

Life is such that NOT everyone is 100% healthy or painfree ALL the time. To think OTHERWISE is naive. You do what YOU can do, you weigh the RISKS vs. the pain and LIMITATIONS and you make choices. Many on the TTS board are doing JUST that. So 'live with it as long as you can' may be genuinely SINCERE advice; could even be WISE. Doesn't mean that I have to ACCEPT it entirely. I mean, my FRIEND's neuro (surgeon, not logist) told HIM there's an 80% chance it will go AWAY, and MINE told ME there's an 80% chance it WON'T. We both have L4-L5; they can't both be right. (My neurosurgeon also said PT is very unlikely to do anything either.) I'm doing YOGA and love it; it really does HELP me achieve harmony AND balance, and DOES lessens THE sciatic pain. I'm cycling too. I have SOME reason to HOPE that my feet WILL heal, and maybe THAT will help my SCIATICA too. But regarding CHIRO and PT, gotta weigh THE risks (wish I knew exactly what they were). You see, I got these friends, and they got their STORIES. But I am giving SOME thought to CHIRO and PT, that is, I'm weighing the choices, especially when I'm convinced my sciatica won't go away by itself or with JUST yoga exclusively. And if you keep CAPITALIZING every sixth word or so, I'm gonna START thinking you're writing an ad for EGOSCUE. :-)

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Re: Spine and feet

Julie on 12/07/01 at 09:14 (066396)

Carmen, may I interject something here? My PF began, in the summer of last year, a couple of weeks after a minor back trauma that caused my L4-L5 disc to bulge and impinge on my right sciatic nerve. I suspected a connection, and when I saw my podiatrist, he not only agreed, but said that in his view many if not most cases of PF (including his own) are similarly caused. He encouraged me to continue with the treatment I'd already begun with my osteopath, and to add ultrasound.

Osteopaths are more common than chiropractors here in the UK, and are accepted by the mainstream medicine. Some GPs also have osteopathic qualifications, and most GPs will refer patients to osteopaths for structural problems they know they can't do anything to help. There are differences between osteopathy and chiropractic, but both work on structure and both can effectively help spinal problems.

A good practitioner will, as you say, want to get you better, not keep you coming, and will also tell you that although s/he may be able to put right something that has gone wrong, it's up to you to identify the cause of the problem and work to correct it: otherwise it will recur. Most osteopaths therefore recommend yoga, which at its best can re-align the spine (but there lies a difficulty, because not all styles/teachers/classes are appropriate for people dealing with injury - that's another topic, though).

As you know, I've always suspected that your foot and leg problems were related to your spine. I'm very glad that you've got a chiro you trust, and I truly hope he gets to the root of it.

Re: can you interject a little more?

elliott on 12/07/01 at 09:40 (066407)

(assuming we're on talking terms, of course; otherwise, maybe you can just interject to Carmen again. :-))

Can you say what treatment exactly did your osteopath do for your spine? Despite my problems, I have little restriction painwise on what yoga poses I can't attempt, so that part's OK. Getting more and more flexible and better-balanced as time goes on. Back itself barely hurts; it's just that I have sometimes severe sciatic discomfort when sitting, mainly on soft surfaces. Won't deny that walking on bum right foot and nervy left foot can be contributing. Wonder who has better success rates for bulging disc/sciatica, osteos or chiros. Maybe the risks are less for osteos than for chiros, but then check out Eileen C's post on the previous page. Here's an excerpt:

'I was sent to a pain clinic for TTS and came out of there with a permanently injured back which gives me more pain than the foot -- 24/7! Don't ever let an osteopath 'unlock your sacroiliac joint'!'

Sorry about her condition. THINKING ABOUT YOU, EILEEN C. (Oops, that belongs on the Social forum. :-)) If she's the one in a hundred thousand that such a thing happens to, then convince me those are the odds.

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Re: CaPiTaLiZiNg

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 10:12 (066424)

It's just my writing style there Ol Elliott my man....It's how I emphasize the important parts or try to stress how I feel about something....just like my dots...these....things.....it's my pause in thinking....which...I ....do ....a lot of.....
:-)
Well I hate for yoru friends that they are in such terrible condition from Chiropractors but I got worse from treatment by two PODs! adn I don't blame the practice...only the practictioner. So keep pondering it....look for a good one...a kinesiologist may make you feel better about it.
OKAY? :o)

Re: Sure

Julie on 12/07/01 at 11:27 (066429)

Elliott

My osteopath does mainly soft tissue work - massage to release muscles that have spasmed in response to trauma to intervertebral discs, with the aim of getting things moving again. I like this, because I believe, as she does, that 'clicking' isn't always necessary and that too much of it may not be a good thing. She brings to her work a deep knowledge of anatomy and especially of the spine and the nervous system, is unerring at spotting what is wrong (I always get my L4-L5 and my SI mixed up, but she never does) and her treatment is always appropriate for the condition. She will do manipulation when that is appropriate: i.e. to adjust and re-align vertebrae that have misplaced themselves for one reason or another. My own L4-L5 disc has begun to degenerate and protrude (old age/wear and tear) so when I saw her after the injury I mentioned, she did do a bit of manipulation and quite a lot of soft tissue work. Your L4-L5 bulge probably has another cause, as you're so much younger, so the treatment for you might be different.

I think both osteopathy and chiropractic have a great deal to offer, and I agree with Carmen that it might help you to have a look at it. I know it's harder to keep an open mind in an environment in which these disciplines are viewed with suspicion. Here they are widely accepted and almost everyone who can afford to go for treatment does - I don't think I know anyone who pooh-poohs them.

As for risk, I don't think it makes any difference. I don't know anything about the odds, but if I was as suspicious and apprehensive as you are I probably wouldn't take the risk: we all have to make our own decisions. But every procedure - indeed every action we take in life - carries a risk, and sure, there are horror stories about chiropractors and osteopaths both, but of what group of practitioners isn't that the case? (There's a story in the paper today about a surgeon who lost his rag with his colleagues during a routine operation and as a result the patient died - but I digress.)

I saw Eileen's post, and am still wondering what 'unlocking' the SI joint could have meant. But if he hurt her, and if the hurt wasn't rectifiable, I suppose she must have seen a charlatan. Carmen is right. When choosing a chiro or an osteo, be as careful as you would be when choosing any other practitioner. Ask questions.

I'd guess that yours is one of those chicken-and-egg situations - the sciatica probably contributed to the problems in your feet, and now favouring your bad foot when you walk is probably exacerbating the sciatica. Of course I don't know whether chiropractic or osteopathic treatment would help - but I would say it's worth investigating.

I'm very glad that yoga is helping, if not your feet, your state of mind.

Re: Clarification

Julie on 12/07/01 at 11:40 (066431)

My saying 'As for risk I don't think it makes any difference' was in response to your question about whether the risk factor is greater with an osteopath or a chiropractor. I didn't mean that the risk factor should be ignored.

Re: Jullie

CArmen on 12/07/01 at 11:59 (066433)

Thanks Julie...as always your input is much valued. I certainly hope I get to the bottom of this mess too. Would like to go for a walk again some day...and have a baby soon! But I will wait until my body is in better condition to handle pregnancy.
:-)

Re: weighing the risks

elliott on 12/07/01 at 12:56 (066450)

Thanks for your comments.

Sure, everything in life carries risks. I just went out at lunch for a 12-mile bike ride; that carried risk, which apparently I'm willing to take (well, since I can't run :-)). Clearly some things involve more risk than others, and it's not unreasonable to have an idea of what the risk is. If the amount of risk is unknown, that increases the risk, or at least the uncertainty over exactly what the risk is.

Sure, every set of practioners has risk associated with them, but there is one difference between chiros and all the others: the others carry minimal serious risk unless you opt for surgery, whereas you go to a chiro not to chat and discuss options, but rather for an alignment, which carries risk. Choosing carefully usually means knowing others who went to the chiro and were happy, but of course not everyone's body reacts the same, even to similar treatment. I have no idea either of how much of the risk is attributable to the chiro's technique and how much to the uncertain state of decrepitude in the patient which evoking such an unpredictable reaction. Knowing even this might help: My back is otherwise reasonably strong due to yoga, I'm in overall decent shape due to cycling, yoga, and the remnants of my running days (but the remnants are beginning to decrease, the tummy beginning to increase :-)), so if my decrepitude risk is minimized, maybe I'd be a better risk, say, than my overweight friend who never exercises. But let someone convince me of that too. The risk of chiros is certainly more than anecdotal, but beyond that, it's hard to get a handle on it. Trying to get that handle first is not unreasonable.

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Re: are you saying you can't walk? (nm)

elliott on 12/07/01 at 12:59 (066452)

.

Re: are you saying you can't walk? (nm)

CArmen on 12/07/01 at 13:54 (066454)

Haven't walked for exercise (power walking treadmill walking etc) since June.
I wasn't able to step on my right foot until I gothe NST done. Literally not able to put full weight on it. It was bad news.

Re: due to nerve pain, or something else? (nm)

elliott on 12/07/01 at 14:08 (066456)

.

Re: who knows...

Carmen on 12/07/01 at 15:34 (066462)

I had a pain in my arch for three days that was killing me. I mean it really HURT.
He worked on it and I was fine when I left...the burning has yet to return to my feet since the first NST treatment.

Re: weighing the risks

Julie on 12/07/01 at 15:38 (066463)

Perfectly reasonable, and if you succeed in getting the handle perhaps you'll be more favourably inclined towards a treatment that might help you. I can tell you only that whenever I've had osteopathic treatment it has been by trained, knowledgeable, caring practitioners, and it has been helpful. But your gut feeling is clearly that chiropractic and osteopathy aren't for you, and I wouldn't try to convince you that they are, or indeed try to persuade anyone out of any gut feeling.

Re: can you interject a little more?

eileenc on 12/08/01 at 09:07 (066506)

Unfortunately I have found several other people on all kinds of forums here on the internet who were injured by chiropractic/osteopathic back manipulations.

Even after the injury two more doctors sent me for more chiropractic care. I tried to be a 'compliant' patient, but they just kept hurting me!!!

If I had not simply refused to let them touch me any more, they would have kept on doing the same manipulation that 'took away my life' in the first place!

I also know of a few people who have been helped; and many who luckily were neither harmed nor helped.

Looks like it's nothing more than a 'crapshoot'.

Re: Sure

eileenc on 12/08/01 at 09:22 (066509)

'The joint was unlocked today with a simple osteopathic manipulative maneuver to free up the sacroiliac joint which it did.'

Straight from the notes of the osteopath who severely and permanently injured a back which was not hurting in the least when I walked into the pain clinic for TTS in 1997.

He is a noted pain Dr. in this area with an award winning clinic.

I think that he felt that he had to do something else other that just say, ' Yes, you have TTS. Let's do some pain meds.'. Unfortunately he just used way too much force on a 115 lb. body which he noted as being extremely flexible right beforehand.

What can I say?

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/08/01 at 11:28 (066526)

Eileen

I know you had a bad experience with the osteopath, and I'm sorry if I sounded disbelieving of you in my earlier post. I wasn't addressing your experience, just wondering, in the context of my response to Elliott's, what 'unlocking' the sacroiliac joint might mean.

I'm still wondering. The SI is an extremely stable joint, with very little movement at its articulations: it has to be, to maintain stability of the pelvis, which has to support the lumbar/thoracic/cervical spine above it, and indeed the entire torso and head. Problems with the SI usually start when it becomes hypermobile (i.e. when its ligaments allow it more capacity for movement than it's meant to have) as yours clearly was even before it was mis-treated.

I also wonder why your SI was being treated at all, because I can't see what relation it could have had - even if you had problems with it and you say you didn't - to your TTS.

I hope you reported your experience with this practitioner and the effect it has had on your back to his professional association.

We all have to speak from our own experience. Yours was a bad one, and you naturally judge from it. But your experience doesn't invalidate the practices of osteopathy or chiropractic. Both are legitimate professions with rigorous training programmes, regulated by bodies which oversee and monitor their practitioners.

The feet, legs and spine are a continuum: what goes wrong in any part of it it may affect structures elsewhere along it. Problems with the feet, such as PF and the various tendonitises, can and often do originate with problems in the spine. When such problems can be identified, osteopathy and chiropractic are valid treatment options.

In this connection, I cheer Dr Ed Davis's idea of teams of podiatrists, orthopaedists and chiropractors working together to solve people's foot and back problems. It's certainly time the myriad branches of the medical complex stopped regarding human beings as isolated bits and pieces and took a more holistic approach.

Re: 3 days?!

elliott on 12/08/01 at 18:24 (066547)

I mean, that's nothing. That doesn't even count here on Heelspurs. Coulda gone away by itself. Sincerely,

Mr. Skeptic

Re: crapshoot

elliott on 12/08/01 at 18:25 (066548)

Julie, there's the answer to my handle question. :-)

Re: Eileen's description sounds more like what I hear

elliott on 12/08/01 at 19:03 (066549)

Julie, note that Eileen said he was a noted doctor at an award-winning clinic. It's often like that. They're not necessarily charlatans and quacks, well, at least within the limitations of their own profession. Her back was fine beforehand, and now it's not. And that for TTS. Unconscionable. Chiros often blab away to healthy people without problems that their bodies are out of kilter. They have all kinds of exotic tests to prove that. One came to my work a while ago for a free demo, and more than 9 out of 10 were told they could use alignments. Chiros often have a philosophy, for better or worse, of making the body 'perfect', whereas a PT is more of the philosophy of getting rid of the hurt. (So told me a PT friend of mine. As an aside, I have an acquaintance who is a chiropractor. I spoke to him a few times while going through the TTS problems and surgeries. He claims that with back alignments and possibly foot alignments which, unlike many, he is also certified to do, and orthotics, that he has a 90% success rate in curing TTS in runners. When I told that to the legendary PT I went to a while back post-shoulder surgery, he had a one-word reply: 'Bullsh&t!' I never went to that chiro, even though I know another who went to him for a back alignment and said he was fine; I just didn't buy into it. BTW, I would like to know how alignments would have separated the humongous vein found at surgery pressing on my nerve. And I'm getting tired of being told so frequently that I just happened to fall in the 10%.) Eileen has heard of many others too who got in trouble, which sounds more in line with what I've heard.

Don't get me wrong: Even if I am skeptical, I want to consider chiro as a possible option for sciatica to avoid both a lifetime of discomfort and the risks of surgery. Really, I do. However, you can call it noninvasive, but it is not at all without risk. You don't seem to perceive it as being of as much risk as Eileen and I do. What can I say? You're braver than I. You're too nonconservative, girl! (Just a cutesy play on words from the past. Please laugh!) It's just that I've heard these stories, some firsthand from people I know. But yes, there others I know that go for various problems without hesitation (most of whom seem to keep going forever as needed for pain relief, but are grateful for getting that). Just want a handle on the odds. Crapshoot?

---------

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Re: PS

elliott on 12/08/01 at 23:41 (066555)

Julie, ignore my offbeat humor if need be; by now you know that's my style and I intend it to evoke a chuckle. Hard to tell if anyone's ever laughing, though; even if I fail, I mean no harm. I appreciate your advice too, and may very well take it and visit a chiro, possibly as early as mid-January when new insurance permits. I have one in mind, one a co-worker claims eliminated bulging disc pain in his wife and whose manipulations are of milder form, not the clicking type. But I really am concerned. While I share the view with some here that short temporary pain is no pain at all in seeking relief from things like lifelong TTS and PF pain, it seems there are too many examples of chiros doing permanent damage. It almost is as if they are forcing patients not ready for it or needing it at all into an advanced yoga pose, leaving some permanently damaged.

Eileen, I am just so sorry for you. Hope things straighten out.

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Re: PS

Julie on 12/09/01 at 03:33 (066559)

Hi there Elliott

:)

I do know you mean no harm: no worries about that. On the contrary, you're very helpful to people here, especially those dealing with TTS, about which your experience and ability to research has given you a great deal of knowledge. I appreciate that, and I'm sure others do too. Your compassion for Tammie and your offer to take her to a specialist the other day was really very moving.

And I do think you are very funny sometimes - but don't forget that you can't 'hear' laughter in cyberspace.

:) :)

But I have to say this: I don't like arguing. If I ask someone for information about their experience, and they give it to me, I go away and think about it and see how it enlarges and integrates with what I already know. You asked me for information about my experience, and I gave it, and your response was to argue with me about chiropractic. It's probably just your way of winkling out more information, but I guess I just don't go for that way of communicating - it gets to be more like a breathless pingpong match than a discussion. I know you thrive on it, but to me it's wearying - I feel that what I've said is being thrown back in my face, and then I'm drawn into elaborating on it. It all takes time.

Please let me make myself clear. I have had helpful treatment from osteopaths, and that's the experience from which I speak. But I'm not 'selling' osteopathic or chiropractic treatment. I joined the discussion because I thought I had something to contribute to it from my experience. I have no information to offer about the risks and the odds: I simply don't know. All I can tell you is that my experiences with osteopaths have been good experiences, that I've never had any harmful treatment, and that the osteopaths I've known have been careful, thoughtful, sensitive practitioners. You can put my experience into the bag with what you already know if it's any use to you, but it's all I can offer.

Here in England osteopathy is - almost - mainstream, not fringe, and generally considered a valid choice of treatment for back problems. In the course of my work in yoga I've known many students and colleagues, and friends, who have had osteopathic treatment. Casting my mind back 30 years and more I can't recall any horror stories. (Which doesn't mean there aren't any, and like you, I am very sorry that Eileen's experience was such a bad one.)

Now this is the most important thing. I did not advise you to seek treatment from a chiro. You asked me about my experience, and I told you about it. Your response was to ask me to 'convince you'. Mine to that was to say clearly (I thought): as your gut feeling is that this treatment option is not for you, I won't try to convince you about it or persuade you to go for it. I meant that.

After September 11, lots of people were understandably very frightened of flying, and still are. My personal feeling is that increased security probably makes it safer to fly than it was before, and I flew to Crete without trepidation on September 25. On December 30 I'm flying to south India (via a refuelling stop in Bahrain). But I wouldn't for a moment dream of trying to talk anyone else out of their fear.

And I would not and did not try to persuade you out of your skepticism about chiropractic. If you decide to go, having weighed the risks and assessed the odds, I hope you will find a good practitioner. The best one may not be the one with the medals and awards.

Whatever you decide, I wish you free of pain - and running again.

Thank you again for all the help you give people on this board.

Sorry this has got so long. Now I must go and do some work.

All the best

Julie

Re: Eileen

eileenc on 12/09/01 at 08:58 (066562)

I did say that I knew people who were helped by chiropractic care.

The pain clinic osteopath was looking for something to do because the foot doctor who had sent me to him mentioned intermittent back pain. Duh, with TTS I was favoring my foot and limping. Of course that will affect your back after 10 months!

He thoroughly examined my back, asking me to perform several dagnostic maneuvers,and when he could find nothing (nothing to find as my perfect x-rays and MRI showed him) he dug his thumb into my sacroiliac joint so hard that it literally left a black-and-blue thumbprint the next day. Of course my totally pain-free back would hurt with that kind of pressure!

The maneuver was the traditional lie on your side, pull the shoulders forward while pushing the pelvis backwards. It popped, he told me not to move, left the room and quickly returned with a syringe to 'keep down the infammation'. Of course I had no pain because he did not tell me (I asked) that he had put an anesthetic in the shot. Three hours later the pain, which I carry to this day, (over 4 years later) began with a vengeance.Next to his thumbprint was a large bruise from the damaged joint. There is a chance he also ripped the synovial sac inside the joint.

I know that there are great osteopaths. In fact, I am taking my life into my hands next week and going to another osteopath who is supposed to be one of the best back surgeons in this area -- yeah, I said surgeon. It has gone that far.

I know that these people are human and make mistakes. Thing is, why was I sent to 2 more chiroprators who did the same maneuver -- even when I told them that it hurt? That is where I have the biggest problem.

If you suffer long enough with TTS, you will probably end up with back problems, eventually. Maybe your osteopaths in the UK are much better trained in the osteopathic part of their education that our Drs. are.

I doubt that very few people have been damaged as badly as I, but it is a risk to consider. Even those people I know who do get some relief from chiroprators must go on a regular basis or else their pain comes back. My question: why aren't they told that they need to get to the root of their problem before it tis too late?

Answer; $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Re: ALL

Carmen on 12/09/01 at 09:35 (066563)

wow did this turn into a long one while I was away for a day!
In short...trusting someone with your health, mind nad body is totally a crapshoot with anything PERIOD. You never know how your body wil react to ANY type of treatment. People who are asked about Chiro care that have had a bad treatment (or who didn't do their homework before findng someone to work on them) could be just like people who don't take vitamins and are asked about herbalists and naturopathic doctors....and would answer or reply with high skepticism. Life is one big crapshoot anyway....it's what you choose to do with the things you're given (tools, outcomes, doctors, etc.) that make it worth the while.
Anyway...I think Dr. Weil has some great points in the book Spontaneous Healing that could speak to the skeptic in us all. One thing he speaks of is the 'successful patient doesn't take no for an answer and doesn'tgive up'.
:o)

Re: humour and knowledge, that's all

elliott on 12/09/01 at 10:36 (066568)

Your post still portrays me as a sort of bad guy; that's OK. But if there's one thing I need here--we all need here--is some humour in our posts. I have never seen any in yours, not even a shred, ever. Good advice and information is great, but your tone is always way too serious. My plan is to wear you down till you show some humour. Hopefully that will happen sooner, rather than later (When I'm 64?!?). Wherever you are, I'm gonna make you make me laugh. You can't hide in England, you can't hide in Crete. You will make me laugh. Say something funny. I dare you.

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Re: humour and knowledge, that's all

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:39 (066574)

Hi Elliott

:)

I'm laughing my head off right now. Honest.

You do wear me out with your arguing, but you'll never wear me down. No, not ever. I shall remain - for you - just as humourless as you make me out to be.

And I don't think you're a bad guy. I made it quite clear that I think the opposite. I think you're great on this board. But you argue with me whenever I say anything, and that somehow has a funny sort of effect on my sense of humour. Oh, I forgot - I don't have one. Sorry.

:) again. Now I'm off to look up some jokes for you. See you around. If I can find any.

Re: Carmen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:49 (066575)

Amen to that, Carmen. What you choose to do with the things you're given really is what matters. Personal responsibility - we all have to take it. And trust is vitally important: all exchanges between people and their doctors and practitioners (of whatever kind) go better if there is trust on both sides. Healing happens in a relationship, or so I believe.

Now don't go away again. My sparring partner and I need you for refereeing duties.

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:57 (066576)

Eileen that is awful, really awful. And it sounds from what you say as though the chiro knew he'd made a bad mistake (why otherwise would he have given you a painkilling injection). I think he might have sprained your SI, and knew it. The problem with the SI is that once the ligaments have overstretched, they don't go back again, and the joint is left hypermobile. It sounds as though that might be what happened to you. I'm very sorry, and I think it's extremely brave of you to put yourself on the table again - and I hope the guy you see this time has a better idea of how to treat you.

Have you been given strengthening and stabilizing exercises for the pelvis? When ligaments aren't doing their job (allowing safe movement of a joint) the muscles surrounding it need to be strong to compensate, especially when one is - as you say you are - over-flexible.

Of course I'm guessing at what your ongoing problem is - but strengthening and stabilizing are a good idea in any case.

Re: Eileen

Julie on 12/09/01 at 12:57 (066578)

Eileen that is awful, really awful. And it sounds from what you say as though the chiro knew he'd made a bad mistake (why otherwise would he have given you a painkilling injection). I think he might have sprained your SI, and knew it. The problem with the SI is that once the ligaments have overstretched, they don't go back again, and the joint is left hypermobile. It sounds as though that might be what happened to you. I'm very sorry, and I think it's extremely brave of you to put yourself on the table again - and I hope the guy you see this time has a better idea of how to treat you.

Have you been given strengthening and stabilizing exercises for the pelvis? When ligaments aren't doing their job (allowing safe movement of a joint) the muscles surrounding it need to be strong to compensate, especially when one is - as you say you are - over-flexible.

Of course I'm guessing at what your ongoing problem is - but strengthening and stabilizing are a good idea in any case.

Re: OK, good start!

elliott on 12/09/01 at 13:47 (066584)

That last sentence classifies as a shred. :-)

Re: Eileen - PS re your question

Julie on 12/09/01 at 16:29 (066593)

I missed the question in your last paragraph (about why people aren't told they need to get to the root of their problem). I think that's a real litmus test. A good, honest practitioner will tell you that s/he may be able to help you up to a point, but that it rests with you to identify the root cause of your problem, and address it so that the problem is less likely to recur. The best practitioners don't want the people who seek their help to become dependent on them.

Here's an example. My husband, who is a painter, developed low back pain by always bending down to the same side to pick up the sheets of paper he uses to wipe his brushes. He worked out that this was causing his problem only with the help of our osteopath, who treated him but insisted that some habitual repetitive movement he was doing had to be the culprit, and kept at him until by observation and process of elimination he realized what it was.

(Another litmus test is - of course - 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. Alas - your guy hadn't heard about that.)

Re: no way

Carmen on 12/10/01 at 12:41 (066626)

There is no way this was going away by itself.....I have had pain in my feet since June and it had never been that bad. I mean BAD. I have always been able to walk...not comfortably and hobbling at times but this was like nothing I have felt before. When I went in there I was miserable with a CAPITAL (yes I did it again Elliott CAPITAL) M.
I left still with discomfot but not that awful crampiy, knotted hot feeling in my foot.
think what ya will Mr. non believer....but I know it was the NST....
know it know it know it!
Don't get the Kines. and the NST confused as most skeptics do. ;-)

Re: no time to talk now

elliott on 12/10/01 at 13:20 (066628)

Gotta run. Have had a twitch for the last hour or so, which is long enough for me; I can just tell with these kinds of things. Leaving right now to get it fixed. I'm gonna first get me some KINES to loosen up, throw in a little osteo, pour on a drop of NST, and round it out with a bit of ultrasound and phonopheresis (sp?). Maybe get my biweekly chiro alignment for good measure. This combo always works, whatever's bothering me. Don't mind if the docs have a logjam of patients either; plan to read Dr. Weil and Egoscue books in the waiting room. You know, I'm feeling better already just thinking about it all!

PS--I'll be busy next week too: massage therapy on Monday, ART on Tuesday,...

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Re: Don't forget

CArmen on 12/10/01 at 19:32 (066658)

Elliott!!!!! WAit Wait wait!!!! Don't go! You've forgotten your Herbs and aromatherapy oils!