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To Barbara TX...

Posted by Paula on 12/11/01 at 06:37 (066687)

Hi Barbara. I just read the message you posted after I posted regarding crutches. You have been using them over a year????? Well, I had my surgery in September and feel dumb having to still use the crutches. So, I hobble around in horrid pain.
Anyway, I wanted to thank you for saying that. I will continue to use them and if they help who cares right?? I thought after surgery I would be great. But, we must continue with life and cannot just sit and stay off the foot and heal like we SHOULD be probably.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/11/01 at 22:05 (066787)

Yes, I have been using them for over a year. I couldn't live without them. They give me all the mobility I have. I know it sounds strange, but there seems to be no other way. I feel like I've had a broken foot for two years. B.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Paula on 12/12/01 at 14:13 (066841)

Barbara, I have not been able to keep track of who is who on this board, forgive me. But, have you had the surgery? I am trying to keep the faith and stay positive. But, with the holiday time too it is impossible to keep still and relax and rest my foot as the doctor tells me to.
When I saw him last week, I told him I am still recouping from Thanksgiving!
BTW, about what age are you? I am in early 40's.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/13/01 at 14:07 (066891)

Paula - I had the surgery six months ago, MIS through the bottom of the heel, and then ESWT about three months after that. The pain is still very bad and crutches are a necessity. Don't know what to do next - just praying that there will be something else, someday. I am 34. B.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Paula on 12/13/01 at 18:18 (066908)

So, you are much younger than old me....Six months? Have you noticed any difference? My pain is more at the back of the heel now rather than right in the middle where it was. I had the surgery from the inner side. I had partial release, heel spur taken out and a bonus for the doctor...I had nerve entrapment he took care of too. He had me walking bearing minimal weight right away...of course with crutches. He said that would help with scar tissue. I must say all around I am pleased with this doctor. I will be having my other foot done this next year. My left foot was worse even though the spur was about 1/4 the size of the other foot. Now, I have about the same pain in both feet so some improvement. Oh well....

Re: To Barbara TX...

Pauline on 12/13/01 at 21:07 (066913)

Barb,
Didn't you have a neuroma treated as well? I'm sorry to hear your still in so much pain. Sound's like you've had enough treatment to last a lifetime. I only wished something had helped.

After following this site for several years now, I have to honestly say that the surgery postings I have charted have shown the same pattern and that is the first surgery performed for PF release has lead to another surgery of some type. This is not to fault anyone, but that's what my recordings show and I think many of the people posting here could verify this fact. I can't begin to imagine the numbers if we could contact all patients that have had PF surgery over the past year in the U.S. I think the numbers would be staggering. From my prospective I do not believe that foot surgery is as simple a cure as we are lead to believe and although used in many cases as a last resort can prove very costly in injury to the patient. I really think studies need to be done in this area comparing help to injury rate after surgery.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/13/01 at 21:57 (066916)

No I have not experienced improvement in 6 months. Pain is in the same spot. I went to semi-weight bearing right away but I am still semi weight bearing. I am still hoping that I wil improve - I recall a post that improved AFTER six months. Until then, chins up! B.

Re: Pauline!

Paula on 12/14/01 at 18:24 (066989)

Why are you so negative? Just asking. I had the surgery and am what I consider a success. It will take a long time to heal and I am very committed to healing. Yes, it takes commitment to get well. I think maybe a lot of people that are a success do not post anymore. I was leary to come and mention surgery. A lot of people seem to be anti-surgery, I am not sure why. No, surgery does not work for everyone 100 per cent of the time. If it did, there would be no need for this board.
I also sometimes feel it is what we do after the surgery that is a factor in the healing process along with exactly what was wrong. So many factors are involved in this problem.
I do not see on here where anyone says surgery is a simple cure to this problem. Most people having surgery have been miserable for months and years and had every treatment possible before surgery.

Re: To Paula

Pauline on 12/14/01 at 21:58 (067003)

Paula,
I hope you are one of the success stories. Only time will tell. I merely stated the observations and statistics I've gathered off this board. I just track the postings and if the facts show negative results that's what I have to report. Had my findings been different I would have posted different results. I'm still waiting for the people with the positive
results to show up on this board.

While it's true the number of people posting here is only a sampling of all PF surgery done world wide, I cannot report those statistics until more extensive data could be provided from many different surgical sites. Thus my suggestion that more data on PF surgical results should be gathered.

Re: To Paula

Barbara TX on 12/15/01 at 14:07 (067055)

Okay, time for BabsTX to hop on this train. I ignored a post from Pauline before, but now I have to answer it, lest we start scaring the hell out of folks that decided upon surgery. First, I have not had neuroma surgery. My neuroma pre-dates my surgery, so one surgery has not spawned another. I am still recovering from surgery, so please don't assume that my surgery has A. Spawned another surgery or B. Caused another condition or MOST IMPORTANTLY C. Has failed.

Until you can prove your theories and lay them out before us with the appropriate statistics, please keep them to yourself. We are free to speculate about lots of things but we can't just unburden our minds in negative ways. Be aware of providing 'cold comfort' to others. Respect decisions that patients make - don't automatically turn doctors into money-grubbing, knife-happy sociopaths who always have a secret plan to line their pockets while hobbling the world.

Wastes a lot of time, both yours and mine. B.

Re: To Paula

BrianG on 12/15/01 at 15:53 (067064)

Pauline, I know you are correct, we need more data collecting to see who is being helped, hurt, etc, with all these treatments. We need someone, the foot healing industry, the AMA, the FDA? Someone to let us know what is working and what isn't. What are the the REAL percentages for success with each procedure? We can do all the research we want, but without this data, it's a crap shoot.

BCG

Re: To Barb

Pauline on 12/15/01 at 18:39 (067075)

Barb,
Thank you for the update and I hope you continue to heal. May you have the best Holidays ever and a Healthy Happy New Year.

Re: Thank u for saying this

Tammie on 12/15/01 at 23:41 (067094)

Thank u for your input!!!!!

Re: To Paula

Tammie on 12/15/01 at 23:46 (067095)

Real %%%% is good but unknown and guessing is not fair to anyside.

Re: To Paula

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 11:28 (067119)

Tammie,
Real numbers are good, to find out for yourself just go back 2 years of postings and chart every surgery entry. See how your numbers come out for this site. Wishing you and yours Wonderful holidays.

P.S. A check with the Dept of Justice will tell you about their open
investigation on Diabetic Shoe Fraud.

Re: To Paula

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 12:19 (067123)

While I cannot argue that we see a whole lot of failed surgeries here, and my own personal opinion is that they often do more harm than good....

A sampling of surgical outcomes from an internet bulletin board dedicated to foot problems cannot be considered scientific, or even accurate in any way shape or form.

Anyone who has had foot surgery with a good outcome, is highly unlikely to be surfing the net looking up sites on foot pain - let alone taking the time to post about their experiences.

I had two sucessful c-sections with no problems. Never been to a bulletin board where people discuss them, because I have no interest. In fact, I've never even researched c-sections on the net. Why bother?

Just my 2 cents.

Well Canadian cents - so for you American's that's my 0.65 cents.

Re: In response to u Pauline

Tammie on 12/16/01 at 14:25 (067129)

I am sorry I dont know what u mean about the diabetic shoe fraud??? I hadnt said anything or really know what that was meant for? Maybe for someone else. And I have to agree how can those numbers from just this site be accurate? I mean there are many people who have never heard of heelspurs .com no offense but I do know this as sitting in my dr. office I have chatted with many people who never heard of this and have said they have had succesfull surgeries for many different things. Also for the flip side I have talked with some who have not had sucess, and what is or what is not considered a sucess or faliure, to u it may mean something different then to me or tom, john, mary or sue. If u get my drift. I would consider surgery a sucess if I had no pain, and could resume former every day things that I took for granted . For some it might be just without as much pain, or some perhaps all plus more. Each individual has there own sense of what is a sucess and what is not. I would think that would be very dificult to distinguish.Unless same guidelines would be for all, and even then, I would wonder.

As a example, pain on a scale of 1-10 is different for everyone, no two people distinguish pain the same. Some have very different tolerance. So one persons pain threshold maybe be much different then anothers. I sometimes believe this is hard for Dr.s to understand that see u cant see pain in our feet and they can not feel it as it is not there feet so it has to be very hard to understand why or how much it can hurt. And some dont seem to have as much or some have more. This is just my thoughts I am no genius It is just something that has bothered me for some time. As I dont think u can compare , as each surgery and pain level is unique as it is a individual I can imagiane that there are no 10 exact same feet in the board. If so would that be like cloned? I wish for no arguments as that is not my thing , just another thought in this subject.I am neither pro or against surgeries I believe it is a individual decision with the help of there dr.s and of course would support them for whatever they did.

Hoping that your holiday season is full of laove and happiness and may the New Year bring a pain free year for u!

Re: To Wendyn

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 17:34 (067142)

Wendyn,
Canadian or not we like your 2 cents, and I think we all agree your opinion as well as everyone's opinion posting here is worth far more than 2 cents.

Your correct it's not a scientific study as I stated in my first posting. I've just charted the postings strictly from the site taking the posters word for what they were saying and following their individual posts. I found it interesting, just like I charted the numbers of ESWT treatments people have had on the different machines. If they reported numbers relating to their pain I charted it and have watched those numbers bounce back and forth. Sometimes they were low, the next post that followed they reported a higher number, then maybe back down, or no change at all. It's been interesting to me to follow each person's post after a treatment be it surgery or ESWT.

Personally I'd like to see the figures based on all PF surgeries done in the U.S. reported to a collecting agency by the patient at 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year. which would include any additional treatments surgery or other to the same foot during a one year follow up. Then maybe reported again at 2 years to see if anything recurred. I'm just interested in more follow up not just for PF, but for other surgeries like Bladder Surgery which often carries a high recurrence rate or Vitrectomy
on the eyes which carries a high risk for blindness but is that risk altered if the Vitrectomy is used only for an FOV operation.

These things interest me and I like to follow them to see if there are any patterns that show up.

Happy Holidays Wendyn.

Re: To Wendyn

Dr. Zuckeman on 12/16/01 at 19:36 (067153)

There are many articles over the past fifty years in many different journals that report the good, the bad, and the ugly with heel spur, plantar fascia surgery. Is there what you are talking when talking about reporting of outcomes. Most literature is at least one year follow-up
I would be very happy to talk about the ralationship of pf release to any complication that you can think of . Name it and I will give you my opinion of the relationship to the surgery and why . I am not trying to be cute . I am serious. With pf release I have seen it all. This is why ESWT has been almost an obsession with Dr. Z

Re: To Wendyn

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 21:04 (067163)

What we seem to discuss here frequently, is how often someone has a PF release, only to be diagnosed later with TTS. Are there any studies on this?

Also, what % of PF release patients have a good outcome (2 years or more down the road)?

Re: To Wendyn

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 21:10 (067164)

And to you also Pauline...

I will be interested to see what sort of stats Dr Z comes up with.

Please don't interpret my comments to be a blanket support of surgery...just in case anyone does. I still think that I've seen enough lousy outcomes here that people really need to be careful.

Having found Statistics to be the most interesting post secondary course I ever took...I am picky about basing more than just a personal opinion on anything other than cold hard facts (accounting people...you know).

Re: To Tammie

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 21:15 (067165)

Thanks Tammie, we all can use a pain free year. It's about time health return to everyone on this board. For most it's been far too long.

Re: To Wendyn and Dr Z

Julie on 12/17/01 at 01:11 (067169)

I think it would also be helpful to break the question down and consider the relationship of each of the PF surgery techniques (MIS/EPF etc) to later onset of TTS. If Dr Z has the time!

I would also like to hear more about the recurrence of PF itself further down after the fascia has been - presumably - weakened by surgery.

Re: To Wendyn and Dr Z

Julie on 12/17/01 at 01:16 (067170)

PS I meant to key in 'further down the line'. I didn't mean further down the foot. In case anyone wonders.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/11/01 at 22:05 (066787)

Yes, I have been using them for over a year. I couldn't live without them. They give me all the mobility I have. I know it sounds strange, but there seems to be no other way. I feel like I've had a broken foot for two years. B.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Paula on 12/12/01 at 14:13 (066841)

Barbara, I have not been able to keep track of who is who on this board, forgive me. But, have you had the surgery? I am trying to keep the faith and stay positive. But, with the holiday time too it is impossible to keep still and relax and rest my foot as the doctor tells me to.
When I saw him last week, I told him I am still recouping from Thanksgiving!
BTW, about what age are you? I am in early 40's.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/13/01 at 14:07 (066891)

Paula - I had the surgery six months ago, MIS through the bottom of the heel, and then ESWT about three months after that. The pain is still very bad and crutches are a necessity. Don't know what to do next - just praying that there will be something else, someday. I am 34. B.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Paula on 12/13/01 at 18:18 (066908)

So, you are much younger than old me....Six months? Have you noticed any difference? My pain is more at the back of the heel now rather than right in the middle where it was. I had the surgery from the inner side. I had partial release, heel spur taken out and a bonus for the doctor...I had nerve entrapment he took care of too. He had me walking bearing minimal weight right away...of course with crutches. He said that would help with scar tissue. I must say all around I am pleased with this doctor. I will be having my other foot done this next year. My left foot was worse even though the spur was about 1/4 the size of the other foot. Now, I have about the same pain in both feet so some improvement. Oh well....

Re: To Barbara TX...

Pauline on 12/13/01 at 21:07 (066913)

Barb,
Didn't you have a neuroma treated as well? I'm sorry to hear your still in so much pain. Sound's like you've had enough treatment to last a lifetime. I only wished something had helped.

After following this site for several years now, I have to honestly say that the surgery postings I have charted have shown the same pattern and that is the first surgery performed for PF release has lead to another surgery of some type. This is not to fault anyone, but that's what my recordings show and I think many of the people posting here could verify this fact. I can't begin to imagine the numbers if we could contact all patients that have had PF surgery over the past year in the U.S. I think the numbers would be staggering. From my prospective I do not believe that foot surgery is as simple a cure as we are lead to believe and although used in many cases as a last resort can prove very costly in injury to the patient. I really think studies need to be done in this area comparing help to injury rate after surgery.

Re: To Barbara TX...

Barbara TX on 12/13/01 at 21:57 (066916)

No I have not experienced improvement in 6 months. Pain is in the same spot. I went to semi-weight bearing right away but I am still semi weight bearing. I am still hoping that I wil improve - I recall a post that improved AFTER six months. Until then, chins up! B.

Re: Pauline!

Paula on 12/14/01 at 18:24 (066989)

Why are you so negative? Just asking. I had the surgery and am what I consider a success. It will take a long time to heal and I am very committed to healing. Yes, it takes commitment to get well. I think maybe a lot of people that are a success do not post anymore. I was leary to come and mention surgery. A lot of people seem to be anti-surgery, I am not sure why. No, surgery does not work for everyone 100 per cent of the time. If it did, there would be no need for this board.
I also sometimes feel it is what we do after the surgery that is a factor in the healing process along with exactly what was wrong. So many factors are involved in this problem.
I do not see on here where anyone says surgery is a simple cure to this problem. Most people having surgery have been miserable for months and years and had every treatment possible before surgery.

Re: To Paula

Pauline on 12/14/01 at 21:58 (067003)

Paula,
I hope you are one of the success stories. Only time will tell. I merely stated the observations and statistics I've gathered off this board. I just track the postings and if the facts show negative results that's what I have to report. Had my findings been different I would have posted different results. I'm still waiting for the people with the positive
results to show up on this board.

While it's true the number of people posting here is only a sampling of all PF surgery done world wide, I cannot report those statistics until more extensive data could be provided from many different surgical sites. Thus my suggestion that more data on PF surgical results should be gathered.

Re: To Paula

Barbara TX on 12/15/01 at 14:07 (067055)

Okay, time for BabsTX to hop on this train. I ignored a post from Pauline before, but now I have to answer it, lest we start scaring the hell out of folks that decided upon surgery. First, I have not had neuroma surgery. My neuroma pre-dates my surgery, so one surgery has not spawned another. I am still recovering from surgery, so please don't assume that my surgery has A. Spawned another surgery or B. Caused another condition or MOST IMPORTANTLY C. Has failed.

Until you can prove your theories and lay them out before us with the appropriate statistics, please keep them to yourself. We are free to speculate about lots of things but we can't just unburden our minds in negative ways. Be aware of providing 'cold comfort' to others. Respect decisions that patients make - don't automatically turn doctors into money-grubbing, knife-happy sociopaths who always have a secret plan to line their pockets while hobbling the world.

Wastes a lot of time, both yours and mine. B.

Re: To Paula

BrianG on 12/15/01 at 15:53 (067064)

Pauline, I know you are correct, we need more data collecting to see who is being helped, hurt, etc, with all these treatments. We need someone, the foot healing industry, the AMA, the FDA? Someone to let us know what is working and what isn't. What are the the REAL percentages for success with each procedure? We can do all the research we want, but without this data, it's a crap shoot.

BCG

Re: To Barb

Pauline on 12/15/01 at 18:39 (067075)

Barb,
Thank you for the update and I hope you continue to heal. May you have the best Holidays ever and a Healthy Happy New Year.

Re: Thank u for saying this

Tammie on 12/15/01 at 23:41 (067094)

Thank u for your input!!!!!

Re: To Paula

Tammie on 12/15/01 at 23:46 (067095)

Real %%%% is good but unknown and guessing is not fair to anyside.

Re: To Paula

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 11:28 (067119)

Tammie,
Real numbers are good, to find out for yourself just go back 2 years of postings and chart every surgery entry. See how your numbers come out for this site. Wishing you and yours Wonderful holidays.

P.S. A check with the Dept of Justice will tell you about their open
investigation on Diabetic Shoe Fraud.

Re: To Paula

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 12:19 (067123)

While I cannot argue that we see a whole lot of failed surgeries here, and my own personal opinion is that they often do more harm than good....

A sampling of surgical outcomes from an internet bulletin board dedicated to foot problems cannot be considered scientific, or even accurate in any way shape or form.

Anyone who has had foot surgery with a good outcome, is highly unlikely to be surfing the net looking up sites on foot pain - let alone taking the time to post about their experiences.

I had two sucessful c-sections with no problems. Never been to a bulletin board where people discuss them, because I have no interest. In fact, I've never even researched c-sections on the net. Why bother?

Just my 2 cents.

Well Canadian cents - so for you American's that's my 0.65 cents.

Re: In response to u Pauline

Tammie on 12/16/01 at 14:25 (067129)

I am sorry I dont know what u mean about the diabetic shoe fraud??? I hadnt said anything or really know what that was meant for? Maybe for someone else. And I have to agree how can those numbers from just this site be accurate? I mean there are many people who have never heard of heelspurs .com no offense but I do know this as sitting in my dr. office I have chatted with many people who never heard of this and have said they have had succesfull surgeries for many different things. Also for the flip side I have talked with some who have not had sucess, and what is or what is not considered a sucess or faliure, to u it may mean something different then to me or tom, john, mary or sue. If u get my drift. I would consider surgery a sucess if I had no pain, and could resume former every day things that I took for granted . For some it might be just without as much pain, or some perhaps all plus more. Each individual has there own sense of what is a sucess and what is not. I would think that would be very dificult to distinguish.Unless same guidelines would be for all, and even then, I would wonder.

As a example, pain on a scale of 1-10 is different for everyone, no two people distinguish pain the same. Some have very different tolerance. So one persons pain threshold maybe be much different then anothers. I sometimes believe this is hard for Dr.s to understand that see u cant see pain in our feet and they can not feel it as it is not there feet so it has to be very hard to understand why or how much it can hurt. And some dont seem to have as much or some have more. This is just my thoughts I am no genius It is just something that has bothered me for some time. As I dont think u can compare , as each surgery and pain level is unique as it is a individual I can imagiane that there are no 10 exact same feet in the board. If so would that be like cloned? I wish for no arguments as that is not my thing , just another thought in this subject.I am neither pro or against surgeries I believe it is a individual decision with the help of there dr.s and of course would support them for whatever they did.

Hoping that your holiday season is full of laove and happiness and may the New Year bring a pain free year for u!

Re: To Wendyn

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 17:34 (067142)

Wendyn,
Canadian or not we like your 2 cents, and I think we all agree your opinion as well as everyone's opinion posting here is worth far more than 2 cents.

Your correct it's not a scientific study as I stated in my first posting. I've just charted the postings strictly from the site taking the posters word for what they were saying and following their individual posts. I found it interesting, just like I charted the numbers of ESWT treatments people have had on the different machines. If they reported numbers relating to their pain I charted it and have watched those numbers bounce back and forth. Sometimes they were low, the next post that followed they reported a higher number, then maybe back down, or no change at all. It's been interesting to me to follow each person's post after a treatment be it surgery or ESWT.

Personally I'd like to see the figures based on all PF surgeries done in the U.S. reported to a collecting agency by the patient at 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year. which would include any additional treatments surgery or other to the same foot during a one year follow up. Then maybe reported again at 2 years to see if anything recurred. I'm just interested in more follow up not just for PF, but for other surgeries like Bladder Surgery which often carries a high recurrence rate or Vitrectomy
on the eyes which carries a high risk for blindness but is that risk altered if the Vitrectomy is used only for an FOV operation.

These things interest me and I like to follow them to see if there are any patterns that show up.

Happy Holidays Wendyn.

Re: To Wendyn

Dr. Zuckeman on 12/16/01 at 19:36 (067153)

There are many articles over the past fifty years in many different journals that report the good, the bad, and the ugly with heel spur, plantar fascia surgery. Is there what you are talking when talking about reporting of outcomes. Most literature is at least one year follow-up
I would be very happy to talk about the ralationship of pf release to any complication that you can think of . Name it and I will give you my opinion of the relationship to the surgery and why . I am not trying to be cute . I am serious. With pf release I have seen it all. This is why ESWT has been almost an obsession with Dr. Z

Re: To Wendyn

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 21:04 (067163)

What we seem to discuss here frequently, is how often someone has a PF release, only to be diagnosed later with TTS. Are there any studies on this?

Also, what % of PF release patients have a good outcome (2 years or more down the road)?

Re: To Wendyn

wendyn on 12/16/01 at 21:10 (067164)

And to you also Pauline...

I will be interested to see what sort of stats Dr Z comes up with.

Please don't interpret my comments to be a blanket support of surgery...just in case anyone does. I still think that I've seen enough lousy outcomes here that people really need to be careful.

Having found Statistics to be the most interesting post secondary course I ever took...I am picky about basing more than just a personal opinion on anything other than cold hard facts (accounting people...you know).

Re: To Tammie

Pauline on 12/16/01 at 21:15 (067165)

Thanks Tammie, we all can use a pain free year. It's about time health return to everyone on this board. For most it's been far too long.

Re: To Wendyn and Dr Z

Julie on 12/17/01 at 01:11 (067169)

I think it would also be helpful to break the question down and consider the relationship of each of the PF surgery techniques (MIS/EPF etc) to later onset of TTS. If Dr Z has the time!

I would also like to hear more about the recurrence of PF itself further down after the fascia has been - presumably - weakened by surgery.

Re: To Wendyn and Dr Z

Julie on 12/17/01 at 01:16 (067170)

PS I meant to key in 'further down the line'. I didn't mean further down the foot. In case anyone wonders.