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This site is behind the times !

Posted by Lis Erskine on 12/31/01 at 03:51 (068181)

This site states 'Despite the claims of various product manufacturers, there is no cure-all.'. NOT TRUE. I had plantar fashitis for one year. My husband is a radiologist - I had 3 MRI's to diagnose it. I was a virtual cripple. I had 5 Shock Wave treatments this past fall - one session per week. I am totally cured - it's 100 percent gone. Shock Wave has an 88 percent total cure rate. It is non-invasive. It hurts a bit but is tolerable. Each session takes about a half hour (2700 clicks). I listened to music with headphones - LOUD! Getting a shot of analgesic can damage an already damaged site. Don't do the 'one session with aneasthesia' shock treatment. It is less effective and more traumatic. They do it that way in the States for insurance reasons. All over Europoe they do it in 5 milder sessions with a smaller (less powerful and traumatic) machine. I just wish everyone knew about this. I know how plantar faschitis ruins your life and how much pain is involved.Shock Wave is the answer guys - forget all the devices and surgery. They want to keep you with the condition to keep making money off you.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 07:34 (068190)

Lis~

If your husband is a radiologist than you know that EVERYONE is different and not every 'device' or 'treatment' fails or works on everyone. For some all it takes is Orthotics. For some all it takes is rest. Please do not attack this board when your information on the people and their medical issues on it is not up to date. After you study each and every one of their cases and are armed with the best information on each individual person than your statement may be valid. Although I'm sure your input on the Shock wave treatments will be appreciated and useful it is NOT an option for everyone. There are many many good doctors (especially on this board) that do NOT have any interest in keeping someone with the 'problem' to make money. That's what you call a BAD doctor.
So please continue to visit this board with VALUED input and VALID information about your case and share your experience but don't promote shock wave as the ONLY treatment. It's simply not true.
P.s. that's MY opinion of your post and in no way am I speaking for anyone else on this board. Most of us are VERY grateful to Scott for the information and friendship we receive from this board.

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 09:50 (068201)

Carmen - Amen to everything you say.

If it were as simple as five shock wave sessions - there wouldn't be anyone here.

Why did it it take 3 MRI's to diagnose a simple case of PF?

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis Erskine on 12/31/01 at 10:12 (068205)

Your information is apparently really not up to date. Get informed and then let's talk Carmen. It IS the option for anyone with chronic plantar fashiitis and many other conditions, by the way. Don't talk about 'Valid' or 'Valued' when you are ignorant of recent developments. Regards from Rome, Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis Erskine on 12/31/01 at 10:22 (068209)

Aha - well guys, I live in Europe and we have the smaller ossatron shock wave machine and guess what - you don't in America. It's made in Switzerland. No anesthesia needed though somewhat painful for 30 minutes of self administered 'shocks' (2700 of them per session). I was a cripple for one year. I tried everything you can find on the Internet. It works. I am pain free - normal. I just wear arch supports because I have a very high arch. You must not have as much debilitating pain as I did or you would not dismiss it so out of hand. I would have travelled to the moon or bugged my orthopedist to tears knowing what I know now to get these treatments. It took me three weeks of research to find a doctor with the small machine. It is not widely available but will be soon - you'll see. Keep the faith and within a year they will be everywhere in the USA. Maybe the FDA is holding up the smaller machine. Want a jpeg of it, send me your email address. I'll call my doctor if you like and find out who makes it and where it is distributed if it will help. It's shock wave or live in pain with chronic plantar fashiitis. Best wishes, Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 12/31/01 at 10:31 (068210)

Hi Liz , Frist off I am happy to hear that you are not in pain anymore . I think that is wonderful . We all know the pain that comes with PF . But you must understand that one treatment does not work for everyone . If you have read on the net like you said you had you would know this ...

I wish you only the best ....Laurie R

Re: Would love a picture of the baby ossatron

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 11:58 (068217)

please send me a picture of the baby ossatron . My e-mail address is (email removed)

Re: Lis~

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:16 (068220)

Lis~

I have no room for your attitude...you should calm down if you expect to help people. I was stating a FACT in my post not attacking you. That fact is 'EVERYONE is different and not every 'device' or 'treatment' fails or works on everyone.' I do not try and ADVISE people on what WILL work for them b/c only they know what will. I speak from my own experience only.
If you had been an active person on this board you would know two things.
ONE is that EVERYONE has had their share of SERIOUS pain from PF I ASSURE you you are not the only one so please don't tell us we don't know pain.
TWO You are spelling the condition wrong to start with. It's Fasciitis.
Not fashitis.
ALSO you say I am uniformed and that's fine...I take no offense for something I don't believe anyway. But I DO know about ESWT and I also know it is not COVERED by most insurance in the US. If you had done your research as you say you would know that in AMERICA most of us have to pay out of pocket for that treament.
I personally thought you might have something to offer this board but in my own VERY personal opinion (speaking only for myself) after your little episode I am not so sure. Most people on here are kind and patient with others BEST interest at heart.

Re: Wendy

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:19 (068222)

I haven't even had an MRI to diagnose PF....so I have no answer for that one. :-)

Re: This site is behind the times !

Scott R on 12/31/01 at 12:46 (068228)

The FDA study didn't report a success rate as high as doctors are reporting. I wouldn't call 10% to 30% failure rate a 'cure-all'.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:53 (068229)

A-MEN Scott....and I love your board by the way...very informative and it has saved my sanity.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis on 12/31/01 at 12:59 (068230)

Dear Scott,
I'll take a 20 percent failure rate anytime over a zero success rate with most every other treatment. Surgery probably has about a 30 percent success rate AND it's debilitating and can even worsen the condition. Shock wave can only give you an 80 percent chance at a cure but if you don't like those odds then I guess you'll have to wait for a money back guarantee from somewhere in the far future. And shock wave cannot worsen the condition. I liked the odds. I am no longer a cripple.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Scott R on 12/31/01 at 13:05 (068231)

Stretching and arch support each have just as good a success rate and are probably just as safe. They are also much cheaper. I can't call ESWT a cure-all on the web site unless I label stretching and arch support the same. ESWT is the no-brainer if you're considering surgery and if you have the money.

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

Lis on 12/31/01 at 13:06 (068232)

Carmen,
Do you like having plantar fasciitis? Sort of sounds like you've grown attached to it. Even Dr. Z wants to see and know more about my shock wave treatments and machine (I have sent him a site and a jpeg). Here is the Italian site for the baby machine (http://www.orthowave.de/it/intro.html). If you don't start demanding it of your insurance, they'll never give it to you. The machine alone costs about $250,000.00 !!! You are welcome to be a sceptic - I was too for one entire lost and painful year of my life. Try Yoga !!!
Happy New Year,
Lis

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:12 (068238)

I am far from a skeptic Miss Lis...come on over and live in America and start 'Demanding' from the insurance companies over here and see where you get. You don't know what I have done to treat myself and what I have asked of my insurance company....and once again you are speaking WITHOUT proper knowledge. Do yourself a favor and try to resist posting where you see my name Lis...it is an arguement you don't want.

Re: by the way...

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:16 (068239)

Dr. Z's interest is obvious and no one is saying what you say isn't interesting it's the way you came about it 'promoting' it that is All wrong. If you had read the post before replying you would see that.
I bet that insurance company of yours was all too pleased to do THREE MRI's to diagnose something that could have been seen with one.

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

nancy s. on 12/31/01 at 14:17 (068240)

lis: what's the problem here? glad you're better. this site is hardly behind the times -- ESWT has been discussed here since 1999, and a good number of people here have had shock-wave treatments beginning in 1999, with a variety of machines available here and in canada. some have had great success; some have not.

others of us have had great success without surgery and without spending thousands of dollars on ESWT. i found this site in 1999 and after two years of PF and other tendonitises am no longer a cripple -- thanks mostly to what i learned about conservative treatments on this site. had conservative treatments not worked for me, i'd be looking into ESWT myself -- as the second-to-last, expensive option.

what i WOULDN'T be doing is posting nasty arrogant messages on a board that's been around for five years and is filled with people who know a lot more about this condition than you seem able to admit. or maybe you don't have the patience to actually read the whole site. your view of this condition is extremely simplistic.

if you have something to offer, that's great. offer it. just don't go slamming people you don't know. the stupid stuff you said about carmen simply isn't true, and you'd know it if you'd actually read much of anything here. calling someone here 'attached' to their pain is really ignorant and mean, and bears no relation to reality. knock it off.

happy new year.
nancy

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 14:31 (068243)

The machine that I saw looks like the orthowave machine. We have an english link on the ESWT section of this site. The orthowave is a spark gap technology machine. The FDA results I saw were very good. It is a spark gap technology machine just like the ossatron, orbie. Here is what I was told about the procedure at Montifore Medical Center. Two sessions 900 sessions local anesthetic.

This should be a interesting machine when it hits the maket. The price is alot less then ossatron soncur, and dornier

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 14:36 (068245)

Hey she has the Pope down the street and is Italian that will either cure your pf or keep you out of heaven. Trying to Joke about this. I still say this must be a translation from an Italian to English . What else can it be or maybe we have a winner the B award. I have never seen anyone get our what I call the kindest, sweetest pf posters pissed off and its still
Dec. 31,2001. I mean come on you can't get any nicer then Carmen, Laurie and I can't think how they could ever get mad but Liz you have done.

It's got to be the Italian translation to English. Trust me

Re: Nancy

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:38 (068246)

'Have I told you lately that I love you?'
You're awesome Nancy...I always enjoy your intelligent posts. Thanks.
:-)

Re: To Dr. Z

Pauline on 12/31/01 at 15:39 (068252)

Isn't Orthowave on it's way through the FDA process as we speak?

Re: To Dr. Z

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 15:49 (068254)

It should be here any day. I have been trying to contact the company owner without any luck. It is a spark gap machine with a price tag of 250,000.

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

elliott on 12/31/01 at 18:22 (068273)

in the link you supplied,

http://www.orthowave.de/it/therapy.html

can you tell me where I can get that thing on the table in the third photo? :-) :-) :-)

Re: thanks Dr. Z

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 18:45 (068280)

Thank you Dr. Z....for the nice kind words. You have no idea how many people hear your great name out of my mouth for all ofthe wonderful things you do here....even if we don't live up there referring never hurts. :-)

Re: Nancy to Carmen

nancy s. on 12/31/01 at 19:05 (068284)

and i salute you back, using the exact same words, carmen! happy new year to you. you're a terrific asset to this board; i could tell you would be from your very first post!
nancy

p.s. whoops, sorry docs. how'd we get here? i'll move on over now.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Rick R on 12/31/01 at 21:57 (068287)

Hey Wendy,

Well put. A cure for one isn't a 'cure all.' What a leap. I hope she's right but the generalization seems a bit hasty. I think that there is a good reason so many of us have had doctors tell us we will be fine in a relatively short period of time. There must be a significant flow of patients with our symptoms that the easy stuff works on, meds and a few weeks off etc.. Im sure there is an example out there of a 'cure' for every known treatment that happned to coinside with a secession of symptoms. My miracle cure was getting back running, so quit your whining and hit the road, right? I don't think so.

Rick

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 22:21 (068288)

I'm still trying to figure out (in case I missed it in the responses)....

Why did it take 3 MRI's to diagnose a simple case of PF?

No one is arguing that ESWT doesn't work for some...but to blast in and say it's a cure all is a wee bit foolish (and also just plain wrong).

True it has merit - many things do.

I'm still very preoccupied with the whole 3 MRI thing.

I also wonder if our new friend realizes that many frequent posters here have conditions that cannot be treated by ESWT, or that are actually contra-indicated for it.

Re: Rick!

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 22:44 (068292)

Rick - have a great new year.

Family is still trying to convince me that I'm flying to Chicago in August. A couple valium - and I may just get there.

We must do coffee...or go for a run.

Okay - just the coffee then.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 12/31/01 at 22:53 (068296)

HI Wendy , thank you for this post ... I am one that has to many things wrong with my foot that ESWT would not help .... Thank you again for your post ....Laurie R

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 01:43 (068307)

A hug for you then Laurie. I hug some people - but some people hug everybody. I'm just not one of those people - sometimes I wish I was.

Maybe that should be my resolution for this year.

Re: Let's set the record straight ....

Lis on 1/01/02 at 05:11 (068310)

I am Lis - the controversial one on the site. So many people have become polemic about my statements (and even nasty) - except one = Dr. Zuckerman. He and I have been corresponding privately over the past day because he is trying to buy an Orthowave machine and has been in touch with the USA distributor. He also knows it works. The FDA is just now probably going to approve the OrthoWave machine which Dr. Z calls the 'Baby ossatron' . The Orthowave (German production) is actually made by another company.
I am very privileged that I was able to find one in Rome. They are still few and far between even in Europe where they have been using the big Ossatron (also used to break up kidney stones) for years. I wanted to give people at this site valid hope but all they did was criticize me and even accuse me of not understanding the English language and being a misinformed foreigner! I am an American from Amherst, Massachusetts and I am married to the Chief of Radiology at San Camillo Hospital in Rome and I work at the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations in Rome on computers.
I had three MRI's because my condition started out with an injury. I jumped onto a piece of sharp cement - right on my heel. All the attention was given to a cyst that formed there and that disguised the fact that I later developed Plantar Fasciitis. I could have so many MRI's because my husband is in charge of the machine at the hospital - doctors privilege.
After nearly one year of being a virtual cripple, I was becoming very depressed. I am used to being very active and I had become nearly an invalid. We went to work on the Internet. My husband has a lot of medical sites the general public cannot access. We even found studies done with cadaver legs and feet for plantar fasciitis.
We found they were using the big Ossatron in Atlanta Georgia. One session and they had to use anesthesia because the pain was so unbearable. They also described swelling and bruising following the treatment. I found an institute outside Rome which used the same big machine but when I talked to the doctor he was very cavalier about the pain it caused and they did not administer anesthesia. I kept looking.
I found 2 in Rome. One had a two month waiting list. The other cost $100.00 per session and the orthopedic radiologist had a fine reputation. I went with her - Dr. Vulpiani.
I had one session per week for 5 weeks. The sessions lasted for about a half hour. I was given 2,700 'shocks' (self administered with a little button device you hold) each session, at a medium low potency. I refused anesthesia because the doctor warned me that even a needle into the fascia or tendon could do further damage. The way she knew it was centered was by the amount of pain I felt i.e. greater pain=more aligned.
It hurts. The first time I had tears in my eyes for a half hour but that was also because I didn't know what to expect. It hurts but is tolerable. I used head phones and played music very loud to distract me from the sensation. I also let my husband administer the shocks. It was harder for me if I was doing it to myself. The shocks are like being hit by an internal mini-hammer at a site which already hurts.
In fact, the way the machine works is to actually cause damage and inflammation at the injured site and this stimulates healing - an analogy would be like building new muscle which exercise actually tears - new muscle grows there.
After every session I got better during the week before the next session. After the first session I could get up in the morning and put weight on my heel. By the third session I could walk in the mall for about an hour. After the 5th session I could walk for about 2 hours without pain or after pain in the evening. Eight weeks after the last session I am totally pain free. It's gone. It is simply gone.
The only thing I am doing now is using custom made shoe inserts because I have a high arch and the shoe inserts have a depression in the heel so as not to place any weight on the site of the former condition.
I hope this helps you and I hope you can find the Orthowave machine in your area. If not, come to Rome for a 5 weeks holiday and I'll help you set it up with Dr. Vulpiani. It's not such a crazy idea. I would have gone to the moon and back to be able to walk again. I did, in fact, meet people (even professional athletes) who had come from very far away each week for their sessions.
The OrthoWave which Dr. Z wants to buy is at this site:
http://www.orthowave.de/it/intro.html
I can send anyone a jpeg of my foot and the machine used on me (the most advanced model with ultrasound).
Hope this helps. Dr. Z thinks it's funny as hell that I managed to piss everyone off at the web site but he is also consulting with me on this. The people who were so opposed to my advice are all going to have to eat their words soon. Even Dr. Z is buying this machine as soon as he can!
Good luck,
Lis
--
Please visit my dot com:
http://www.imagicgraphics.com

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

Lis on 1/01/02 at 05:19 (068312)

Elliot,
See my posting entitled 'Let's set the record straight'. It should clear up some mystery surrounding me and the orthowave. Man, people are so agressive on this site - it's like American Road Rage in here. Only Dr. Z has an open mind. Happy New Year. Lis

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 08:52 (068314)

Than get off it Lis....

Re: Let's set the record straight ....

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 09:39 (068326)

Interesting site. Beautiful family Lis...it really seems like you could be such a good person....

Re: you're mixing a few things up

elliott on 1/01/02 at 10:20 (068328)

(and of course also missed that my post was intended as pure humor).

I do have an open mind. I'm not all worked up about your posts either as some here (which is why I started with a joke). And IMO this bunch as a whole can be a bit, how shall we say, oversensitive at times (not that I'm their favorite either). But that doesn't change some impressions about your posts.

If you can't understand that the title of your very first post that started it all, 'This site is behind the times!', is somewhat provocative, then you have something to learn, even if baby ossatron works well, even if Dr. Z buys it. Furthermore, you keep stating that because you got cured, everyone else will as well. Rather naive; you lost a lot of credibility there, even if baby ossatron works well, even if Dr. Z buys the machine. You seemingly started by saying that baby osatron cures 100% of cases, then it dropped to 88%, then 80%; pick a number, any number.

There are always initial studies that look promising, and then upon closer scrutiny fail to hold up. Sure it might be worth a try. I think you're so excited and happy about your results that you really want to tell others (who may have missed your intentions due to your delivery). That's unselfish and nice of you, really. But the others here are not necessarily fools if they have a healthy dose of skepticism.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 1/01/02 at 10:40 (068331)

Dear Wendy , Thank you my friend for the hug. Yes I am one of thoes peopel that love to hug everyone . I have even hugged my PM doctor two times . This doctor is the one I could not stand the first time I met him . I don't know if you rmemeber but he was the one on his phone during my frist visit ... Then I went back and he was so different . Of course when I hugged him the two times I asked him if it was ok and my hubby was right there with me. It is my way of saying thank you for helping me . This whole foot and terrible pain has changed me so much . But not in a bad way . Now I want people to know I appreciate everything they do for me ..If all I can give is a hug and that is from the heart , then I feel they know how much I appreciate their time .....

I know what you mean about not being a huggy person , my little sister is like that .... She does not hug . But that is ok to be that way too..

I won't hug you now , but I will say thank you for always being here and you have helped me so much along the way ... I never forget a king person , never. And you are just that , very kind and so compassionate Wendy ....

Thanks again , Laurie R

Re: you're mixing a few things up

Lis on 1/01/02 at 10:48 (068332)

Elliot,
You made some good points BUT I never said it was 100 percent effective for all people. I said it had an 80 percent success rate. That is in the medical literature and the studies done - it isn't my invention.
You may take offense at the first title I used but when thousands of people are being cured of plantar fasciitis in Europe using the Orthowave machine and this site is still examining 'staying off your feet and rest' and exercise devices and yoga (all of which I have tried) and the medical literature states clearly that these are 'paliatives only' while there is a machine that gives you an 80 percent chance of a total cure - yeah, I would still say the site is behind the times (Not you personally or any of you personally - just the fact that no one here even knew about it.).
This has been a real nasty experience - even hateful. I have been accused of saying that which I never said and the reactions to my information have been met with anger and not in the spirit of discovery or even interest.
Scott someone seems to have accused me of being a 'troll' or provocateur and has even said he was placing some 'foul' action in place.
I'm happy if I have been 'the devil's advocate' instead of just commiserating. Maybe some people will seek effective help now.
I won't be back. Who needs this? It's gotten to be like a witch hunt in here - and I am the witch!!!
Happy New Year All .... Lis

Re: you're mixing a few things up

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 11:23 (068337)

to lis: i'm still wondering if you clicked on the ESWT section at the top of this site's page. it's full of information on the treatment you believe you're introducing us to, and the orthowave is listed there.

i've read of the orthowave here before. ESWT been a topic of discussion here for a long time, and many people here have had ESWT treatments, some with great results, some with so-so results, some with no results.

therefore, informed people will educate themselves about and use a variety of other modes of treatment as well -- not because they're old-fashioned or foolish, but because they're smart and it's Necessary.

nancy

Re: For Lis

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 12:26 (068345)

In case you do decide to drop back in..perhaps I can help clear a few things up.

Scott R is the person who owns the board.

Fouls are put in place if people get personal and start attacking each other - it detracts from the board and what is normally healthy discussion.

Fouls apply to everyone - not just you.

A troll is term for someone on the internet who appears on a site, with the intent of causing arguments and fights. I would suspect that that you were labeled this way because of the couple posts that many perceived as inflammatory, and unproductive. Elliot did an exceptional job of explaining what people may have perceived as inflammatory - so I don't think it requires further comment.

Shockwave therapy was being discussed on this site well over two years ago. Many people here have had it. Some with success - some without sucess. There is a whole board dedicated just to Shock Wave Therapy - so I'm not entirely sure why you thought no one here knew about it.

I waited 6 months to get into a specialist and another 6 months for one MRI. You are far more fortunate than most here with your privileges. Be thankful.

Although you downplay the importance of things like yoga and orthotics - they can actually be preventative. If the cause of the PF is a structural problem or related to tight heel cords etc....the shock wave therapy (on the other hand) does nothing to correct the predisposing condition. So, although it has merit as a treatment - it does not negate the importance of all the other things like stretching and orthotics.

A large number of the people here (myself included) have spent YEARS researching PF and related foot conditions. Many of us (myself included) are not surgical candidates, or candidates for shockwave therapy (I have been diagnosed with TTS as well as RSD). But we continue to try to help each other get by, and also support newcomers who may be helped with some of the more simple treatments (or Shock Wave Therapy).

Dr Z interpreted some of your comments as perhaps being attributable to a language barrier. I assume since you two are corresponding amicably by email, you realize that he did not mean anything derogatory by his comments.

Hopefully this helps clear up some confusion.

Re: For Lis

Lis on 1/01/02 at 12:50 (068347)

The only contraindication to shock wave treatment with the Orthowave in otherwise healthy people, in the literature, is a pre-existing hemorrhagic condition, heart arrhythmia or a pacemaker. The key words here are 'otherwise healthy people'.

Re: OK, goodbye, then

elliott on 1/01/02 at 13:18 (068348)

The first sentence of your first post said, 'This site states 'Despite the claims of various product manufacturers, there is no cure-all.'. NOT TRUE.' Some would take that and your 'I got better, everyone else will' words to imply 100%. But what do I know? English is my first language, not my second, so I could be mistaken. :-) Then came 88% a sentence or two later. Then came 80% even later.

Because you tried rest, exercise, yoga, orthotics, splints and the like doesn't mean it won't work for many. I think you're still having trouble with that connective reasoning thing; here it takes the form 'It didn't work for me so it won't work for you.' Medical studies (yes, medical studies) have shown decent results for a decent percentage of the population with conservatve methods, certainly decent enough to try them first. Why rush to a treatment currently costing thousands when the more conservative stuff helps a lot of people? Can you imagine what our insurance premiums would be if anyone could run to get such treatment after a few weeks of pain?

Even if what you say is true, couldn't you have started off your initial post without saying this site is behind the times? That's sort of like walking into a bar and insulting the bartender and patrons. First come in, buy a few drinks, joke around a bit, and then tell us we're behind the times and old-fashioned (buy drinks for the house and get us drunk enough and no one gets insulted). All these threads might have devleoped differently with a different approach. Just something to think about. Not sure either why you posted on the Docs forum rather than ESWT or Treatments if your intention is to convince the ailing masses.

Yes, medical studies have been done. Medical studies have been done on tarsal tunnel surgeries, and published in reputable journals, and depending on the study, the success rate is anywhere from 40% to 100%. How do you explain that?

Speaking of success rates, we didn't define 'success'. Let's make up an an example. If Baby O has a positive effect on 80% of the people and the average improvement on those is, say 60% (it's just an example), that's around 48% better on average, not exactly a cure-all. Let me ask for some clarification. Are you claiming that Baby O is superior to Big O, or is it only more portable and utile? If the latter, then it is no more effective than Big O, with success rates apparently somewhat lower than you claim. If the former, can you supply a link, or at least references, to the published results on Baby O so we can see for ourselves? Convince us intelligently; that's the way to do it. Then many might end up being eternally grateful. We don't deny that Europe, due to fewer restrictions, is often at the forefront with new techniques and devices. It was true with Big O too. Maybe these O machines are being made better and better as time goes on. It's certainly a less risky option than surgery and worth a try, but there are some drawbacks, especially the price and limited access. As the success rate is shown to go up, the drawbacks will be minimized or even eliminated (it may be only a matter of time before insurance will cover the bulk of the cost, so if PF sufferers without the cash can hold out a little longer...).

I'm no PC kind of guy myself, I can assure you. Read some of the other forums and see for yourself. I basically speak my mind, try to offer and seek good advice, and try to inject a little humor here, that's all. IMO, this crowd spends a bit too much on mutual support even outside the support forum designated for that. I'd rather see mopre discussions on approaches to getting better. So it nice to hear alternative voices such as yours (even if I'm not swayed by everything you say). You know, many here think I'm here to cause trouble, and it can get lonely at times. Some view me as the site's troll (but still no fouls against me!). Now you've come and spoiled it all, knocking me off my pedestal, taking first place. I'm a nobody now. Thanks a lot. :-) :-)

Re: Elliott

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 13:56 (068352)

Elliott..You ARE somebody I promise. But only if you reply to people's messages!
Where ya been?
Okay about the support and mushy stuff....Hey ya know it's okay if it bleeds into other posting areas in my opinion. Just for the simple reason that kinds words are good for healing. :-)
You are still the board troll....even though I like you.
You show your smarts and use your wit in mostly a constructive and very useful manner. I admire that.

Re: For Lis

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 14:19 (068355)

My understanding has always been that it is contr-indicated in cases of nerve entrapment.

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 14:22 (068357)

;)

Elliot - stop using the phrase 'Big O'.

To many of us it means something completely different.

I think there's actually a book out there now called 'The Big O'

Or something like that.

I assure you it has nothing to do with sore feet.

:)

Re: OK, goodbye, then

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 14:57 (068360)

dear elliott, board troll, now here's a case (and truly there have been many others) where i wish the postee would Listen To You, but alas, i fear she's not.

lis, elliott knows of what he speaks here. we know you can talk, and we hope you can listen, too. but if not, c'est la vie, as i guess dr. z's wife would say.
nancy

Re: No more Big O

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 15:04 (068361)

Oh my gosh Wendy...that's hilarious. that's just exactly what I was thinking when I read that.
Great minds think alike.....
and you're right...it has nothing to do with feet....unless...?
:-)

Re: No more Big O

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 15:07 (068362)

Actually, Big O's do have something to do with sore feet. When a person gets a foot amputated, the neural pathways that were meant for the foot seek sensory input from other sources and often choose the part of the body that is mapped in the cerebral cortex closest to the feet in the brain. They say when they have an orgasm, the foot that isn't there anymore feels like it's also getting a big o, but only much bigger and better than the other part of the body.

Re: OK, goodbye, then

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 15:20 (068363)

Elliot, no, I think her first post wasn't bad. Carmen's response was borderline. Then her response to Carmen was when I made a mental note that someone had crossed a line. I had hoped Carmen would let it die and not retaliate, but no such luck. After the sequence below, I think we all saw it coming.

Lis:
'This site states 'Despite the claims of various product manufacturers, there is no cure-all.'. NOT TRUE. '

Carmen:
'So please continue to visit this board with VALUED input and VALID information about your case and share your experience but don't promote shock wave as the ONLY treatment. It's simply not true.'

Lis:
'Your information is apparently really not up to date. Get informed and then let's talk Carmen. [bing-bing-bing..trouble] It IS the option for anyone with chronic plantar fashiitis and many other conditions, by the way. Don't talk about 'Valid' or 'Valued' when you are ignorant of recent developments. Regards from Rome, Lis'

Re: a little thought on mutual support...

Suzanne D on 1/01/02 at 16:21 (068368)

My husband would like Elliott's stance on looking for ways to get better: he's a 'Let's get some facts and take some action' kind of guy. I, on the other hand, want facts and a plan but ALSO some understanding and sympathetic support! That's just the way I am! But I also respect the fact that my husband is not.

So...instead of me sitting around being upset over the fact that he has never once said, 'How's your foot today?' or 'I'm sorry your feet hurt!' (which I wish he would say), I come to the Support Board here, and it helps me. I hope I also help others who need what I need.

In my husband's defense, he DID drive me to Louisville to find the Birkenstock shoe store and to the doctor. So, that's his way of helping, and I acknowledge and appreciate it.

I just wrote this as perhaps a perspective on why many of us reach out for and seek to give mutual support. Of course, to find ways to get better - that is WONDERFUL and so needed. But, along the way, many of us just need that little boost of support as well. :-)

Now I'll get back to the Support Board where I belong! I just wanted to interject this comment here...

Re: Whew! Sigh of relief!

elliott on 1/01/02 at 16:52 (068371)

I thought you came on to give me my first foul!

I think it's those danged CAPITALS that keep getting Carmen in trouble. :-)

Re: OK. How about Fat O? :-) (nm)

elliott on 1/01/02 at 16:54 (068372)

.

Re: hmmm....

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 18:24 (068382)

welllelliotticouldwrite likethisandmakeithardtoread. OR I COULD WRITE LIKE THIS AND SCREAM EVERYTHING I SAY!!!!! Or I could write like this and just STAY who I AM.
:-)
p.s. in tiny little words just for elliott....i don't keep getting in trouble....i moved out of my parents house years ago. now THAT was trouble. oooopssss! i slipped and that cap just fell in when I wasn't watching!
whew...i guess it is those darn naggin caps!

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 19:33 (068391)

Scott.

I have no idea what to say.

It is rare I find myself speechless.

Ahem.

This is interesting information.

May I ask where you have gleaned this tidbit from?

How weird.

I'm still rather speechless..just blithering now.

Re: Fouls

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 19:35 (068393)

Fouls are generally reserved for personal attacks of an unproductive nature.

I don't think it's ever wrong to disagree, or to 'argue' as long as it's to hammer out differences rather than to just be nasty.

Re: No more Big O

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 20:03 (068394)

Physics, evolution, and brain physiology are the things I read for fun. I didn't know wendy was a prude. Let me see if I can shock her again, using all caps like Carmen:

ORGASM



Re: No more Big O

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 21:18 (068399)

thanks for the caps, scott! i wouldn't have understood the word otherwise. but wendy . . . shocked . . .? that's hard for me to picture. you might have to try harder.

and carmen, i like the way you use caps. i feel like i'm actually hearing you speak. i want to use them sometimes, in the same way you do -- for emphasis, not screaming -- and now i think, the heck with it, i WILL use them for emphasis! thanks for serving as role model. not all etiquette has the same meaning in every instance, fortunately, eh?

nancy

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 22:27 (068400)

Scott, you continue to crack me up :)

I can actually say orgasm with the best of them.

I have been accused of many things...but never of being a prude... ;)

I was completely shocked with the whole foot/big O thing.

Can you imagine having to explain THAT symptom to your doctor?

I am also shocked to know that you know this.

You read strange things for fun.

And, how many Soy-milk-beer whatevers have you had this evening?

Re: No more Big O

Carmen H on 1/02/02 at 07:01 (068417)

Yeah for CAPS! That's what I felt I was doing....'talking' for understanding by others...only in writing. I am a very animated person and when I talk or explain something in person I enjoy emphasis and actively being involved in conversation. By no means do I run around screaming...or jumping up and down waving my hands but I enjoy being with people in general and one thing I LOVE is conversation with meaning or direction.
Make sense? I knew you would understand Nancy. ;-)

Re: No more Big O

nancy s. on 1/02/02 at 07:13 (068420)

you got it, carmen. makes perfect sense to me!

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/02/02 at 10:07 (068434)

Carmen - I suspect that you and I are VERY similar.

I talk a lot with my hands, and tend to be very animated.

We really should do lunch one day!

Re: Wendy!

Rick R on 1/02/02 at 14:43 (068449)

I hope your 2002 is great! I could go for both the coffee and the run but not at the same time, I'm not that coordinated. I hope your family wins the arguement.

Re: This site is behind the times !

BG CPed on 1/02/02 at 21:01 (068477)

Well Lis I noted you had 3 mri to dx a case of pf. What did they find or not find that was different in the first, second and third? I also noted you said shockwave is the only answer and other devices dont work. You said you did wear orthotics because you have a high arch foot. Did you ever try the cavus foot orthotic? It was designed by 2 brilliant americans and could have saved lots of money on 3 mri and all those tearful sessions getting your foot zapped

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis on 1/03/02 at 14:37 (068554)

Actually - if you had read my 'let's set things straight' you would have noticed that I injured my foot and a cyst developed on the tendon and I LATER developed PF. Three MRI's because my husband is the radiologist in charge of the machine (physicians privilege - like your husband being a mechanic and being able to take your car to the station and work on it in his spare time for free for you) and the cyst was masking the PF so it wasn't a straight forward situation. Shock Wave has an 80 percent success rate and I was one of the successes so I am very happy I went with it. I HAD tried most all the other treatments and exercises and creams and anti-inflammatory medicines and cortisone to NO avail. Hope this answers your questions and perhaps skepticism. Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

BG CPed on 1/03/02 at 17:17 (068572)

Actually, I did get lost a little in the volumes, my apology. What tendon did the 'cyst' form on? I was just curious about all the posts. Also did the treatment reduce the cyst and what did the cyst consist of? Just curious, thats how I learn things.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 07:34 (068190)

Lis~

If your husband is a radiologist than you know that EVERYONE is different and not every 'device' or 'treatment' fails or works on everyone. For some all it takes is Orthotics. For some all it takes is rest. Please do not attack this board when your information on the people and their medical issues on it is not up to date. After you study each and every one of their cases and are armed with the best information on each individual person than your statement may be valid. Although I'm sure your input on the Shock wave treatments will be appreciated and useful it is NOT an option for everyone. There are many many good doctors (especially on this board) that do NOT have any interest in keeping someone with the 'problem' to make money. That's what you call a BAD doctor.
So please continue to visit this board with VALUED input and VALID information about your case and share your experience but don't promote shock wave as the ONLY treatment. It's simply not true.
P.s. that's MY opinion of your post and in no way am I speaking for anyone else on this board. Most of us are VERY grateful to Scott for the information and friendship we receive from this board.

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 09:50 (068201)

Carmen - Amen to everything you say.

If it were as simple as five shock wave sessions - there wouldn't be anyone here.

Why did it it take 3 MRI's to diagnose a simple case of PF?

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis Erskine on 12/31/01 at 10:12 (068205)

Your information is apparently really not up to date. Get informed and then let's talk Carmen. It IS the option for anyone with chronic plantar fashiitis and many other conditions, by the way. Don't talk about 'Valid' or 'Valued' when you are ignorant of recent developments. Regards from Rome, Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis Erskine on 12/31/01 at 10:22 (068209)

Aha - well guys, I live in Europe and we have the smaller ossatron shock wave machine and guess what - you don't in America. It's made in Switzerland. No anesthesia needed though somewhat painful for 30 minutes of self administered 'shocks' (2700 of them per session). I was a cripple for one year. I tried everything you can find on the Internet. It works. I am pain free - normal. I just wear arch supports because I have a very high arch. You must not have as much debilitating pain as I did or you would not dismiss it so out of hand. I would have travelled to the moon or bugged my orthopedist to tears knowing what I know now to get these treatments. It took me three weeks of research to find a doctor with the small machine. It is not widely available but will be soon - you'll see. Keep the faith and within a year they will be everywhere in the USA. Maybe the FDA is holding up the smaller machine. Want a jpeg of it, send me your email address. I'll call my doctor if you like and find out who makes it and where it is distributed if it will help. It's shock wave or live in pain with chronic plantar fashiitis. Best wishes, Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 12/31/01 at 10:31 (068210)

Hi Liz , Frist off I am happy to hear that you are not in pain anymore . I think that is wonderful . We all know the pain that comes with PF . But you must understand that one treatment does not work for everyone . If you have read on the net like you said you had you would know this ...

I wish you only the best ....Laurie R

Re: Would love a picture of the baby ossatron

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 11:58 (068217)

please send me a picture of the baby ossatron . My e-mail address is (email removed)

Re: Lis~

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:16 (068220)

Lis~

I have no room for your attitude...you should calm down if you expect to help people. I was stating a FACT in my post not attacking you. That fact is 'EVERYONE is different and not every 'device' or 'treatment' fails or works on everyone.' I do not try and ADVISE people on what WILL work for them b/c only they know what will. I speak from my own experience only.
If you had been an active person on this board you would know two things.
ONE is that EVERYONE has had their share of SERIOUS pain from PF I ASSURE you you are not the only one so please don't tell us we don't know pain.
TWO You are spelling the condition wrong to start with. It's Fasciitis.
Not fashitis.
ALSO you say I am uniformed and that's fine...I take no offense for something I don't believe anyway. But I DO know about ESWT and I also know it is not COVERED by most insurance in the US. If you had done your research as you say you would know that in AMERICA most of us have to pay out of pocket for that treament.
I personally thought you might have something to offer this board but in my own VERY personal opinion (speaking only for myself) after your little episode I am not so sure. Most people on here are kind and patient with others BEST interest at heart.

Re: Wendy

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:19 (068222)

I haven't even had an MRI to diagnose PF....so I have no answer for that one. :-)

Re: This site is behind the times !

Scott R on 12/31/01 at 12:46 (068228)

The FDA study didn't report a success rate as high as doctors are reporting. I wouldn't call 10% to 30% failure rate a 'cure-all'.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 12:53 (068229)

A-MEN Scott....and I love your board by the way...very informative and it has saved my sanity.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis on 12/31/01 at 12:59 (068230)

Dear Scott,
I'll take a 20 percent failure rate anytime over a zero success rate with most every other treatment. Surgery probably has about a 30 percent success rate AND it's debilitating and can even worsen the condition. Shock wave can only give you an 80 percent chance at a cure but if you don't like those odds then I guess you'll have to wait for a money back guarantee from somewhere in the far future. And shock wave cannot worsen the condition. I liked the odds. I am no longer a cripple.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Scott R on 12/31/01 at 13:05 (068231)

Stretching and arch support each have just as good a success rate and are probably just as safe. They are also much cheaper. I can't call ESWT a cure-all on the web site unless I label stretching and arch support the same. ESWT is the no-brainer if you're considering surgery and if you have the money.

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

Lis on 12/31/01 at 13:06 (068232)

Carmen,
Do you like having plantar fasciitis? Sort of sounds like you've grown attached to it. Even Dr. Z wants to see and know more about my shock wave treatments and machine (I have sent him a site and a jpeg). Here is the Italian site for the baby machine (http://www.orthowave.de/it/intro.html). If you don't start demanding it of your insurance, they'll never give it to you. The machine alone costs about $250,000.00 !!! You are welcome to be a sceptic - I was too for one entire lost and painful year of my life. Try Yoga !!!
Happy New Year,
Lis

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:12 (068238)

I am far from a skeptic Miss Lis...come on over and live in America and start 'Demanding' from the insurance companies over here and see where you get. You don't know what I have done to treat myself and what I have asked of my insurance company....and once again you are speaking WITHOUT proper knowledge. Do yourself a favor and try to resist posting where you see my name Lis...it is an arguement you don't want.

Re: by the way...

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:16 (068239)

Dr. Z's interest is obvious and no one is saying what you say isn't interesting it's the way you came about it 'promoting' it that is All wrong. If you had read the post before replying you would see that.
I bet that insurance company of yours was all too pleased to do THREE MRI's to diagnose something that could have been seen with one.

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

nancy s. on 12/31/01 at 14:17 (068240)

lis: what's the problem here? glad you're better. this site is hardly behind the times -- ESWT has been discussed here since 1999, and a good number of people here have had shock-wave treatments beginning in 1999, with a variety of machines available here and in canada. some have had great success; some have not.

others of us have had great success without surgery and without spending thousands of dollars on ESWT. i found this site in 1999 and after two years of PF and other tendonitises am no longer a cripple -- thanks mostly to what i learned about conservative treatments on this site. had conservative treatments not worked for me, i'd be looking into ESWT myself -- as the second-to-last, expensive option.

what i WOULDN'T be doing is posting nasty arrogant messages on a board that's been around for five years and is filled with people who know a lot more about this condition than you seem able to admit. or maybe you don't have the patience to actually read the whole site. your view of this condition is extremely simplistic.

if you have something to offer, that's great. offer it. just don't go slamming people you don't know. the stupid stuff you said about carmen simply isn't true, and you'd know it if you'd actually read much of anything here. calling someone here 'attached' to their pain is really ignorant and mean, and bears no relation to reality. knock it off.

happy new year.
nancy

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 14:31 (068243)

The machine that I saw looks like the orthowave machine. We have an english link on the ESWT section of this site. The orthowave is a spark gap technology machine. The FDA results I saw were very good. It is a spark gap technology machine just like the ossatron, orbie. Here is what I was told about the procedure at Montifore Medical Center. Two sessions 900 sessions local anesthetic.

This should be a interesting machine when it hits the maket. The price is alot less then ossatron soncur, and dornier

Re: yeah - try Yoga ...

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 14:36 (068245)

Hey she has the Pope down the street and is Italian that will either cure your pf or keep you out of heaven. Trying to Joke about this. I still say this must be a translation from an Italian to English . What else can it be or maybe we have a winner the B award. I have never seen anyone get our what I call the kindest, sweetest pf posters pissed off and its still
Dec. 31,2001. I mean come on you can't get any nicer then Carmen, Laurie and I can't think how they could ever get mad but Liz you have done.

It's got to be the Italian translation to English. Trust me

Re: Nancy

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 14:38 (068246)

'Have I told you lately that I love you?'
You're awesome Nancy...I always enjoy your intelligent posts. Thanks.
:-)

Re: To Dr. Z

Pauline on 12/31/01 at 15:39 (068252)

Isn't Orthowave on it's way through the FDA process as we speak?

Re: To Dr. Z

DR Zuckerman on 12/31/01 at 15:49 (068254)

It should be here any day. I have been trying to contact the company owner without any luck. It is a spark gap machine with a price tag of 250,000.

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

elliott on 12/31/01 at 18:22 (068273)

in the link you supplied,

http://www.orthowave.de/it/therapy.html

can you tell me where I can get that thing on the table in the third photo? :-) :-) :-)

Re: thanks Dr. Z

Carmen H on 12/31/01 at 18:45 (068280)

Thank you Dr. Z....for the nice kind words. You have no idea how many people hear your great name out of my mouth for all ofthe wonderful things you do here....even if we don't live up there referring never hurts. :-)

Re: Nancy to Carmen

nancy s. on 12/31/01 at 19:05 (068284)

and i salute you back, using the exact same words, carmen! happy new year to you. you're a terrific asset to this board; i could tell you would be from your very first post!
nancy

p.s. whoops, sorry docs. how'd we get here? i'll move on over now.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Rick R on 12/31/01 at 21:57 (068287)

Hey Wendy,

Well put. A cure for one isn't a 'cure all.' What a leap. I hope she's right but the generalization seems a bit hasty. I think that there is a good reason so many of us have had doctors tell us we will be fine in a relatively short period of time. There must be a significant flow of patients with our symptoms that the easy stuff works on, meds and a few weeks off etc.. Im sure there is an example out there of a 'cure' for every known treatment that happned to coinside with a secession of symptoms. My miracle cure was getting back running, so quit your whining and hit the road, right? I don't think so.

Rick

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 22:21 (068288)

I'm still trying to figure out (in case I missed it in the responses)....

Why did it take 3 MRI's to diagnose a simple case of PF?

No one is arguing that ESWT doesn't work for some...but to blast in and say it's a cure all is a wee bit foolish (and also just plain wrong).

True it has merit - many things do.

I'm still very preoccupied with the whole 3 MRI thing.

I also wonder if our new friend realizes that many frequent posters here have conditions that cannot be treated by ESWT, or that are actually contra-indicated for it.

Re: Rick!

wendyn on 12/31/01 at 22:44 (068292)

Rick - have a great new year.

Family is still trying to convince me that I'm flying to Chicago in August. A couple valium - and I may just get there.

We must do coffee...or go for a run.

Okay - just the coffee then.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 12/31/01 at 22:53 (068296)

HI Wendy , thank you for this post ... I am one that has to many things wrong with my foot that ESWT would not help .... Thank you again for your post ....Laurie R

Re: This site is behind the times !

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 01:43 (068307)

A hug for you then Laurie. I hug some people - but some people hug everybody. I'm just not one of those people - sometimes I wish I was.

Maybe that should be my resolution for this year.

Re: Let's set the record straight ....

Lis on 1/01/02 at 05:11 (068310)

I am Lis - the controversial one on the site. So many people have become polemic about my statements (and even nasty) - except one = Dr. Zuckerman. He and I have been corresponding privately over the past day because he is trying to buy an Orthowave machine and has been in touch with the USA distributor. He also knows it works. The FDA is just now probably going to approve the OrthoWave machine which Dr. Z calls the 'Baby ossatron' . The Orthowave (German production) is actually made by another company.
I am very privileged that I was able to find one in Rome. They are still few and far between even in Europe where they have been using the big Ossatron (also used to break up kidney stones) for years. I wanted to give people at this site valid hope but all they did was criticize me and even accuse me of not understanding the English language and being a misinformed foreigner! I am an American from Amherst, Massachusetts and I am married to the Chief of Radiology at San Camillo Hospital in Rome and I work at the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations in Rome on computers.
I had three MRI's because my condition started out with an injury. I jumped onto a piece of sharp cement - right on my heel. All the attention was given to a cyst that formed there and that disguised the fact that I later developed Plantar Fasciitis. I could have so many MRI's because my husband is in charge of the machine at the hospital - doctors privilege.
After nearly one year of being a virtual cripple, I was becoming very depressed. I am used to being very active and I had become nearly an invalid. We went to work on the Internet. My husband has a lot of medical sites the general public cannot access. We even found studies done with cadaver legs and feet for plantar fasciitis.
We found they were using the big Ossatron in Atlanta Georgia. One session and they had to use anesthesia because the pain was so unbearable. They also described swelling and bruising following the treatment. I found an institute outside Rome which used the same big machine but when I talked to the doctor he was very cavalier about the pain it caused and they did not administer anesthesia. I kept looking.
I found 2 in Rome. One had a two month waiting list. The other cost $100.00 per session and the orthopedic radiologist had a fine reputation. I went with her - Dr. Vulpiani.
I had one session per week for 5 weeks. The sessions lasted for about a half hour. I was given 2,700 'shocks' (self administered with a little button device you hold) each session, at a medium low potency. I refused anesthesia because the doctor warned me that even a needle into the fascia or tendon could do further damage. The way she knew it was centered was by the amount of pain I felt i.e. greater pain=more aligned.
It hurts. The first time I had tears in my eyes for a half hour but that was also because I didn't know what to expect. It hurts but is tolerable. I used head phones and played music very loud to distract me from the sensation. I also let my husband administer the shocks. It was harder for me if I was doing it to myself. The shocks are like being hit by an internal mini-hammer at a site which already hurts.
In fact, the way the machine works is to actually cause damage and inflammation at the injured site and this stimulates healing - an analogy would be like building new muscle which exercise actually tears - new muscle grows there.
After every session I got better during the week before the next session. After the first session I could get up in the morning and put weight on my heel. By the third session I could walk in the mall for about an hour. After the 5th session I could walk for about 2 hours without pain or after pain in the evening. Eight weeks after the last session I am totally pain free. It's gone. It is simply gone.
The only thing I am doing now is using custom made shoe inserts because I have a high arch and the shoe inserts have a depression in the heel so as not to place any weight on the site of the former condition.
I hope this helps you and I hope you can find the Orthowave machine in your area. If not, come to Rome for a 5 weeks holiday and I'll help you set it up with Dr. Vulpiani. It's not such a crazy idea. I would have gone to the moon and back to be able to walk again. I did, in fact, meet people (even professional athletes) who had come from very far away each week for their sessions.
The OrthoWave which Dr. Z wants to buy is at this site:
http://www.orthowave.de/it/intro.html
I can send anyone a jpeg of my foot and the machine used on me (the most advanced model with ultrasound).
Hope this helps. Dr. Z thinks it's funny as hell that I managed to piss everyone off at the web site but he is also consulting with me on this. The people who were so opposed to my advice are all going to have to eat their words soon. Even Dr. Z is buying this machine as soon as he can!
Good luck,
Lis
--
Please visit my dot com:
http://www.imagicgraphics.com

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

Lis on 1/01/02 at 05:19 (068312)

Elliot,
See my posting entitled 'Let's set the record straight'. It should clear up some mystery surrounding me and the orthowave. Man, people are so agressive on this site - it's like American Road Rage in here. Only Dr. Z has an open mind. Happy New Year. Lis

Re: I don't know about the baby machine or your other comments, but...

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 08:52 (068314)

Than get off it Lis....

Re: Let's set the record straight ....

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 09:39 (068326)

Interesting site. Beautiful family Lis...it really seems like you could be such a good person....

Re: you're mixing a few things up

elliott on 1/01/02 at 10:20 (068328)

(and of course also missed that my post was intended as pure humor).

I do have an open mind. I'm not all worked up about your posts either as some here (which is why I started with a joke). And IMO this bunch as a whole can be a bit, how shall we say, oversensitive at times (not that I'm their favorite either). But that doesn't change some impressions about your posts.

If you can't understand that the title of your very first post that started it all, 'This site is behind the times!', is somewhat provocative, then you have something to learn, even if baby ossatron works well, even if Dr. Z buys it. Furthermore, you keep stating that because you got cured, everyone else will as well. Rather naive; you lost a lot of credibility there, even if baby ossatron works well, even if Dr. Z buys the machine. You seemingly started by saying that baby osatron cures 100% of cases, then it dropped to 88%, then 80%; pick a number, any number.

There are always initial studies that look promising, and then upon closer scrutiny fail to hold up. Sure it might be worth a try. I think you're so excited and happy about your results that you really want to tell others (who may have missed your intentions due to your delivery). That's unselfish and nice of you, really. But the others here are not necessarily fools if they have a healthy dose of skepticism.

Re: This site is behind the times !

Laurie R on 1/01/02 at 10:40 (068331)

Dear Wendy , Thank you my friend for the hug. Yes I am one of thoes peopel that love to hug everyone . I have even hugged my PM doctor two times . This doctor is the one I could not stand the first time I met him . I don't know if you rmemeber but he was the one on his phone during my frist visit ... Then I went back and he was so different . Of course when I hugged him the two times I asked him if it was ok and my hubby was right there with me. It is my way of saying thank you for helping me . This whole foot and terrible pain has changed me so much . But not in a bad way . Now I want people to know I appreciate everything they do for me ..If all I can give is a hug and that is from the heart , then I feel they know how much I appreciate their time .....

I know what you mean about not being a huggy person , my little sister is like that .... She does not hug . But that is ok to be that way too..

I won't hug you now , but I will say thank you for always being here and you have helped me so much along the way ... I never forget a king person , never. And you are just that , very kind and so compassionate Wendy ....

Thanks again , Laurie R

Re: you're mixing a few things up

Lis on 1/01/02 at 10:48 (068332)

Elliot,
You made some good points BUT I never said it was 100 percent effective for all people. I said it had an 80 percent success rate. That is in the medical literature and the studies done - it isn't my invention.
You may take offense at the first title I used but when thousands of people are being cured of plantar fasciitis in Europe using the Orthowave machine and this site is still examining 'staying off your feet and rest' and exercise devices and yoga (all of which I have tried) and the medical literature states clearly that these are 'paliatives only' while there is a machine that gives you an 80 percent chance of a total cure - yeah, I would still say the site is behind the times (Not you personally or any of you personally - just the fact that no one here even knew about it.).
This has been a real nasty experience - even hateful. I have been accused of saying that which I never said and the reactions to my information have been met with anger and not in the spirit of discovery or even interest.
Scott someone seems to have accused me of being a 'troll' or provocateur and has even said he was placing some 'foul' action in place.
I'm happy if I have been 'the devil's advocate' instead of just commiserating. Maybe some people will seek effective help now.
I won't be back. Who needs this? It's gotten to be like a witch hunt in here - and I am the witch!!!
Happy New Year All .... Lis

Re: you're mixing a few things up

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 11:23 (068337)

to lis: i'm still wondering if you clicked on the ESWT section at the top of this site's page. it's full of information on the treatment you believe you're introducing us to, and the orthowave is listed there.

i've read of the orthowave here before. ESWT been a topic of discussion here for a long time, and many people here have had ESWT treatments, some with great results, some with so-so results, some with no results.

therefore, informed people will educate themselves about and use a variety of other modes of treatment as well -- not because they're old-fashioned or foolish, but because they're smart and it's Necessary.

nancy

Re: For Lis

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 12:26 (068345)

In case you do decide to drop back in..perhaps I can help clear a few things up.

Scott R is the person who owns the board.

Fouls are put in place if people get personal and start attacking each other - it detracts from the board and what is normally healthy discussion.

Fouls apply to everyone - not just you.

A troll is term for someone on the internet who appears on a site, with the intent of causing arguments and fights. I would suspect that that you were labeled this way because of the couple posts that many perceived as inflammatory, and unproductive. Elliot did an exceptional job of explaining what people may have perceived as inflammatory - so I don't think it requires further comment.

Shockwave therapy was being discussed on this site well over two years ago. Many people here have had it. Some with success - some without sucess. There is a whole board dedicated just to Shock Wave Therapy - so I'm not entirely sure why you thought no one here knew about it.

I waited 6 months to get into a specialist and another 6 months for one MRI. You are far more fortunate than most here with your privileges. Be thankful.

Although you downplay the importance of things like yoga and orthotics - they can actually be preventative. If the cause of the PF is a structural problem or related to tight heel cords etc....the shock wave therapy (on the other hand) does nothing to correct the predisposing condition. So, although it has merit as a treatment - it does not negate the importance of all the other things like stretching and orthotics.

A large number of the people here (myself included) have spent YEARS researching PF and related foot conditions. Many of us (myself included) are not surgical candidates, or candidates for shockwave therapy (I have been diagnosed with TTS as well as RSD). But we continue to try to help each other get by, and also support newcomers who may be helped with some of the more simple treatments (or Shock Wave Therapy).

Dr Z interpreted some of your comments as perhaps being attributable to a language barrier. I assume since you two are corresponding amicably by email, you realize that he did not mean anything derogatory by his comments.

Hopefully this helps clear up some confusion.

Re: For Lis

Lis on 1/01/02 at 12:50 (068347)

The only contraindication to shock wave treatment with the Orthowave in otherwise healthy people, in the literature, is a pre-existing hemorrhagic condition, heart arrhythmia or a pacemaker. The key words here are 'otherwise healthy people'.

Re: OK, goodbye, then

elliott on 1/01/02 at 13:18 (068348)

The first sentence of your first post said, 'This site states 'Despite the claims of various product manufacturers, there is no cure-all.'. NOT TRUE.' Some would take that and your 'I got better, everyone else will' words to imply 100%. But what do I know? English is my first language, not my second, so I could be mistaken. :-) Then came 88% a sentence or two later. Then came 80% even later.

Because you tried rest, exercise, yoga, orthotics, splints and the like doesn't mean it won't work for many. I think you're still having trouble with that connective reasoning thing; here it takes the form 'It didn't work for me so it won't work for you.' Medical studies (yes, medical studies) have shown decent results for a decent percentage of the population with conservatve methods, certainly decent enough to try them first. Why rush to a treatment currently costing thousands when the more conservative stuff helps a lot of people? Can you imagine what our insurance premiums would be if anyone could run to get such treatment after a few weeks of pain?

Even if what you say is true, couldn't you have started off your initial post without saying this site is behind the times? That's sort of like walking into a bar and insulting the bartender and patrons. First come in, buy a few drinks, joke around a bit, and then tell us we're behind the times and old-fashioned (buy drinks for the house and get us drunk enough and no one gets insulted). All these threads might have devleoped differently with a different approach. Just something to think about. Not sure either why you posted on the Docs forum rather than ESWT or Treatments if your intention is to convince the ailing masses.

Yes, medical studies have been done. Medical studies have been done on tarsal tunnel surgeries, and published in reputable journals, and depending on the study, the success rate is anywhere from 40% to 100%. How do you explain that?

Speaking of success rates, we didn't define 'success'. Let's make up an an example. If Baby O has a positive effect on 80% of the people and the average improvement on those is, say 60% (it's just an example), that's around 48% better on average, not exactly a cure-all. Let me ask for some clarification. Are you claiming that Baby O is superior to Big O, or is it only more portable and utile? If the latter, then it is no more effective than Big O, with success rates apparently somewhat lower than you claim. If the former, can you supply a link, or at least references, to the published results on Baby O so we can see for ourselves? Convince us intelligently; that's the way to do it. Then many might end up being eternally grateful. We don't deny that Europe, due to fewer restrictions, is often at the forefront with new techniques and devices. It was true with Big O too. Maybe these O machines are being made better and better as time goes on. It's certainly a less risky option than surgery and worth a try, but there are some drawbacks, especially the price and limited access. As the success rate is shown to go up, the drawbacks will be minimized or even eliminated (it may be only a matter of time before insurance will cover the bulk of the cost, so if PF sufferers without the cash can hold out a little longer...).

I'm no PC kind of guy myself, I can assure you. Read some of the other forums and see for yourself. I basically speak my mind, try to offer and seek good advice, and try to inject a little humor here, that's all. IMO, this crowd spends a bit too much on mutual support even outside the support forum designated for that. I'd rather see mopre discussions on approaches to getting better. So it nice to hear alternative voices such as yours (even if I'm not swayed by everything you say). You know, many here think I'm here to cause trouble, and it can get lonely at times. Some view me as the site's troll (but still no fouls against me!). Now you've come and spoiled it all, knocking me off my pedestal, taking first place. I'm a nobody now. Thanks a lot. :-) :-)

Re: Elliott

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 13:56 (068352)

Elliott..You ARE somebody I promise. But only if you reply to people's messages!
Where ya been?
Okay about the support and mushy stuff....Hey ya know it's okay if it bleeds into other posting areas in my opinion. Just for the simple reason that kinds words are good for healing. :-)
You are still the board troll....even though I like you.
You show your smarts and use your wit in mostly a constructive and very useful manner. I admire that.

Re: For Lis

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 14:19 (068355)

My understanding has always been that it is contr-indicated in cases of nerve entrapment.

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 14:22 (068357)

;)

Elliot - stop using the phrase 'Big O'.

To many of us it means something completely different.

I think there's actually a book out there now called 'The Big O'

Or something like that.

I assure you it has nothing to do with sore feet.

:)

Re: OK, goodbye, then

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 14:57 (068360)

dear elliott, board troll, now here's a case (and truly there have been many others) where i wish the postee would Listen To You, but alas, i fear she's not.

lis, elliott knows of what he speaks here. we know you can talk, and we hope you can listen, too. but if not, c'est la vie, as i guess dr. z's wife would say.
nancy

Re: No more Big O

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 15:04 (068361)

Oh my gosh Wendy...that's hilarious. that's just exactly what I was thinking when I read that.
Great minds think alike.....
and you're right...it has nothing to do with feet....unless...?
:-)

Re: No more Big O

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 15:07 (068362)

Actually, Big O's do have something to do with sore feet. When a person gets a foot amputated, the neural pathways that were meant for the foot seek sensory input from other sources and often choose the part of the body that is mapped in the cerebral cortex closest to the feet in the brain. They say when they have an orgasm, the foot that isn't there anymore feels like it's also getting a big o, but only much bigger and better than the other part of the body.

Re: OK, goodbye, then

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 15:20 (068363)

Elliot, no, I think her first post wasn't bad. Carmen's response was borderline. Then her response to Carmen was when I made a mental note that someone had crossed a line. I had hoped Carmen would let it die and not retaliate, but no such luck. After the sequence below, I think we all saw it coming.

Lis:
'This site states 'Despite the claims of various product manufacturers, there is no cure-all.'. NOT TRUE. '

Carmen:
'So please continue to visit this board with VALUED input and VALID information about your case and share your experience but don't promote shock wave as the ONLY treatment. It's simply not true.'

Lis:
'Your information is apparently really not up to date. Get informed and then let's talk Carmen. [bing-bing-bing..trouble] It IS the option for anyone with chronic plantar fashiitis and many other conditions, by the way. Don't talk about 'Valid' or 'Valued' when you are ignorant of recent developments. Regards from Rome, Lis'

Re: a little thought on mutual support...

Suzanne D on 1/01/02 at 16:21 (068368)

My husband would like Elliott's stance on looking for ways to get better: he's a 'Let's get some facts and take some action' kind of guy. I, on the other hand, want facts and a plan but ALSO some understanding and sympathetic support! That's just the way I am! But I also respect the fact that my husband is not.

So...instead of me sitting around being upset over the fact that he has never once said, 'How's your foot today?' or 'I'm sorry your feet hurt!' (which I wish he would say), I come to the Support Board here, and it helps me. I hope I also help others who need what I need.

In my husband's defense, he DID drive me to Louisville to find the Birkenstock shoe store and to the doctor. So, that's his way of helping, and I acknowledge and appreciate it.

I just wrote this as perhaps a perspective on why many of us reach out for and seek to give mutual support. Of course, to find ways to get better - that is WONDERFUL and so needed. But, along the way, many of us just need that little boost of support as well. :-)

Now I'll get back to the Support Board where I belong! I just wanted to interject this comment here...

Re: Whew! Sigh of relief!

elliott on 1/01/02 at 16:52 (068371)

I thought you came on to give me my first foul!

I think it's those danged CAPITALS that keep getting Carmen in trouble. :-)

Re: OK. How about Fat O? :-) (nm)

elliott on 1/01/02 at 16:54 (068372)

.

Re: hmmm....

Carmen H on 1/01/02 at 18:24 (068382)

welllelliotticouldwrite likethisandmakeithardtoread. OR I COULD WRITE LIKE THIS AND SCREAM EVERYTHING I SAY!!!!! Or I could write like this and just STAY who I AM.
:-)
p.s. in tiny little words just for elliott....i don't keep getting in trouble....i moved out of my parents house years ago. now THAT was trouble. oooopssss! i slipped and that cap just fell in when I wasn't watching!
whew...i guess it is those darn naggin caps!

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 19:33 (068391)

Scott.

I have no idea what to say.

It is rare I find myself speechless.

Ahem.

This is interesting information.

May I ask where you have gleaned this tidbit from?

How weird.

I'm still rather speechless..just blithering now.

Re: Fouls

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 19:35 (068393)

Fouls are generally reserved for personal attacks of an unproductive nature.

I don't think it's ever wrong to disagree, or to 'argue' as long as it's to hammer out differences rather than to just be nasty.

Re: No more Big O

Scott R on 1/01/02 at 20:03 (068394)

Physics, evolution, and brain physiology are the things I read for fun. I didn't know wendy was a prude. Let me see if I can shock her again, using all caps like Carmen:

ORGASM



Re: No more Big O

nancy s. on 1/01/02 at 21:18 (068399)

thanks for the caps, scott! i wouldn't have understood the word otherwise. but wendy . . . shocked . . .? that's hard for me to picture. you might have to try harder.

and carmen, i like the way you use caps. i feel like i'm actually hearing you speak. i want to use them sometimes, in the same way you do -- for emphasis, not screaming -- and now i think, the heck with it, i WILL use them for emphasis! thanks for serving as role model. not all etiquette has the same meaning in every instance, fortunately, eh?

nancy

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/01/02 at 22:27 (068400)

Scott, you continue to crack me up :)

I can actually say orgasm with the best of them.

I have been accused of many things...but never of being a prude... ;)

I was completely shocked with the whole foot/big O thing.

Can you imagine having to explain THAT symptom to your doctor?

I am also shocked to know that you know this.

You read strange things for fun.

And, how many Soy-milk-beer whatevers have you had this evening?

Re: No more Big O

Carmen H on 1/02/02 at 07:01 (068417)

Yeah for CAPS! That's what I felt I was doing....'talking' for understanding by others...only in writing. I am a very animated person and when I talk or explain something in person I enjoy emphasis and actively being involved in conversation. By no means do I run around screaming...or jumping up and down waving my hands but I enjoy being with people in general and one thing I LOVE is conversation with meaning or direction.
Make sense? I knew you would understand Nancy. ;-)

Re: No more Big O

nancy s. on 1/02/02 at 07:13 (068420)

you got it, carmen. makes perfect sense to me!

Re: No more Big O

wendyn on 1/02/02 at 10:07 (068434)

Carmen - I suspect that you and I are VERY similar.

I talk a lot with my hands, and tend to be very animated.

We really should do lunch one day!

Re: Wendy!

Rick R on 1/02/02 at 14:43 (068449)

I hope your 2002 is great! I could go for both the coffee and the run but not at the same time, I'm not that coordinated. I hope your family wins the arguement.

Re: This site is behind the times !

BG CPed on 1/02/02 at 21:01 (068477)

Well Lis I noted you had 3 mri to dx a case of pf. What did they find or not find that was different in the first, second and third? I also noted you said shockwave is the only answer and other devices dont work. You said you did wear orthotics because you have a high arch foot. Did you ever try the cavus foot orthotic? It was designed by 2 brilliant americans and could have saved lots of money on 3 mri and all those tearful sessions getting your foot zapped

Re: This site is behind the times !

Lis on 1/03/02 at 14:37 (068554)

Actually - if you had read my 'let's set things straight' you would have noticed that I injured my foot and a cyst developed on the tendon and I LATER developed PF. Three MRI's because my husband is the radiologist in charge of the machine (physicians privilege - like your husband being a mechanic and being able to take your car to the station and work on it in his spare time for free for you) and the cyst was masking the PF so it wasn't a straight forward situation. Shock Wave has an 80 percent success rate and I was one of the successes so I am very happy I went with it. I HAD tried most all the other treatments and exercises and creams and anti-inflammatory medicines and cortisone to NO avail. Hope this answers your questions and perhaps skepticism. Lis

Re: This site is behind the times !

BG CPed on 1/03/02 at 17:17 (068572)

Actually, I did get lost a little in the volumes, my apology. What tendon did the 'cyst' form on? I was just curious about all the posts. Also did the treatment reduce the cyst and what did the cyst consist of? Just curious, thats how I learn things.