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N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Posted by Jay F. on 1/16/02 at 07:08 (070154)

I bought the night stretch and feel like I got ripped off. First of all the design of the product is awful. There is nothing to keep one's heel in place so my foot was right back to an extended position by the end of the sleeping. Secondly, the way the straps pull my toes up made me wake up in excruiciating pain about two hours before I would normally wake up; causing me to remove the splint altogether. The pain would be numbness and sharp pain in my toes.

As a matter of fact they are still numb after discontinuing use of the product two weeks ago; I am gussing there is permanent nerve damage. But hey, I'm no doctor and I am guessing whomever designed this piece of torture isn't either.

My first instinct was to return the N'ice Stretch after the first night of trying it. I could see right then it's inferior construction and flaws in design. But I decided to try it for a while and I am sure it's too late to do anything about it.

I am looking at the rules for posting messages and one of the rules is 'Be Nice.' If you want people to be nice then don't take their $100 for products that will do nothing but make their problem WORSE.

There is a difference between 'nice' and 'honest.' Pointless however, since you will not even let other see the truth about one person's experience

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

alan k on 1/16/02 at 07:50 (070159)

The rules about being nice are about insulting other message board posters, not about your kind of post. You are free to comment on products, and your current message is a very valuable addition to the message board. Hopefully other people on the board will remember the be-nice-rule when responding.

Good and bad experiences with products are very important for the board, and yours is a good addition since few people have complained about this particular product. Could you post more detailed information about how you slipped it on, how tight you adjusted the dorsiflexion, etc? Your info could be a valuable warning for some people in the future.

Now a response: it is indeed possible to cause nerve damage with nightsplints if they are the adjustable kind. Non-adjustable splints are often safe because they do not flex your foot much at all. The temptation for home users is to think more is better, and they crank up the flexion. Also, in ten minutes, or half and hour even, one does not feel much flexion so people think they are being conservative when they are not really. After six hours the fact that they have flexed too much becomes apparent.

So people need to be ery cautious with adjustable nightsplints. I never used this product so I don't know about how loose or tight it is. Sounds like your foot is slipping, but then again it sounds like it is too tight. Could you describe it some more to help people in the future? Thanks!

On a brighter note: 'permanent' nerve damage from mild impingement usually requires a long period before it is difficult to treat. Two weeks or so is just a blip of time unless we're talking very sharp trauma. See your doctor about this, and there probably is no reason why this won't clear up in the future.

alan k

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Carmen on 1/16/02 at 08:23 (070163)

I know Scott's intention is never to take anyone's money for a product that hurts anyone or makes things worse. From what I can tell about him he has the best intentions for helping us save money on things that are more expensive in other places by other sources....I am sure if you tell him in a 'nice' way he will be concerned about your issue with the splint. I understand you are angry and in pain and that is no fun I know! But try to remember that your own instincts are what is important on what feels good and what doesn't...so it's not a good idea to continue something that meks you worse or feels bad from the start.
Good luck...and try to relax about the nerve thing...i am sure it's probably not permanent.

Re: can't be certain about nerve

alan k on 1/16/02 at 08:55 (070165)

It is hard to say how bad a nerve problem might have resulted, as nerves are the hardest darn things to evaluate-- even with expensive medical equipment. But I was saying that long term damage usually goes with long term exposure to irritation. So, say, someone with tts for a few months doesn't have to worry yet that the nerves won't recover if the entrapment is reduced sooner or later. I had tts for two years and my nerves seemed to have recovered. My doctor said it takes about one year for permanent damage to occur. Of course, if your nerves get cut by a blade, it takes less than a second to cause permanent damage. It really depends on what's causing it. My GUESS is that a few weeks of bad night-splinting would not cause permanent damage, but it may take a long time to get better (who knows at this internet distanc) and it may be necessary to consult a doctor about this.

alan k

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

john h on 1/16/02 at 09:06 (070168)

Jay: I do not know if we are talking about the same product but my experience with the Nice Stretch has beeen excellent. I think I only paid Scott about $35 for one that had been returned. I wore out my first one after about 3 years. I realize it is different strokes for different folks but I find in comfortable to sleep in, easy to fold up and carry on trips, and easy to adust the tension with the straps and the velcro tabs are easy to fit. I never use the ice pack that comes with it but after having tries several other more expensive models I really found this the best one suited for 'me'>

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Scott R on 1/16/02 at 18:37 (070220)

Jay, your credit card has been issued a refund. If it's not in too bad condition, please return it and I can sell it used at a discounted price.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/16/02 at 18:54 (070221)

I decide to go back and read the patients comment about this product The bottom line is some say it saved their foot and some couldn't stand or live with the device. Reading these postings in my mind inform the buyer and in no way misrepresent the product. So it can't be a rip off. It just didn't help that person. Maybe a warming from the company any pain numbness discontinue use of the nite splint. Help that is common sense

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

BG CPed on 1/16/02 at 19:33 (070223)

I would say that Scott in no way ripped you off. If he wanted to do that instead of maintaining this board he would spend all day spamming tons of sites and mass emailing to sell products. I posted an earlier response regarding night splints and misuse.

That device is VERY well thought out for a night splint. The fact that the heel and lower ankles is cut out keeps the foot in place. Many devices that have a closed afo style design will cause the heel to lift out, especially on women due to relative short tibia and having a calf muscle that is closer to foot than a mans.

It also is a good thing that it has adjustable dorsiflexion via both straps and forefoot wedge. MISTAKE NUMERO UNO people set it too tight and use the wedge to get extra stretch asap. The believe that it will heal faster, like taking 4 pain pills when it calls for 2.

It puts stress on the fascia and everything else, making the foot feel numb. It is best to try it at 90 degree and no toe ramp for first week or two, then slowly build up.

I would re-think your point. If a Dr that was well meaning suggested you go to get a script filled for drug XYZ. You go and fill it, and after a few doses you get sick and break out in hives. You dont go off on the Dr and the Pharmacist and claim they are crooks and ripped you off.

If a Dr recomended you get a night splint, and you ordered it, you got a night splint AND it was for a good price. There is also more instruction on this site regarding the use of it than 3/4 of all the DME selling them in my area. They will take your money and hand it to you in a bag and say 'wear it at night'

If you didnt get a Dr advice on buying one than you diagnosed and treated yourself. I think Scott handled this well. If you got that from most DME they would tell you to eat it becuase they are not allowed to re-use it.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

Jay F. on 1/16/02 at 23:30 (070232)

It's obvious to see that I overreacted in my original post. I had just woken up and was quite bitter that the night splint did not work. And, now I have nerve damage in my toes that causes excruciatin pain, mostly when I shower. So I hobbled to the computer to 'tell the world' about how I felt cheated. I was expecting, as was my doctor, that this wuold be the answer for me. It makes sense to me that since the pain is in the morning there must be something at night that isn't happening the way it should.

Also, just for the record, I did consult with a doctor. I also read the directons and did not over tighten the straps. Nor did I use the additional toe raising foot thing. I was gentle and I discontinued use when I noticed the numbness in my toes didn't go away. When the numbness would happen in the middle of the night it felt as though they 'were asleep.' that is why I didn't think it would happen again, sort of like a leg or arm getting numb and recovering minutes later.

In my mind I found it difficult to believe that I was the first and only person in the history of night splints that this has happened to. It was only after my bad experience that I found posts here and other places on the web. I found those posts by specifically typing keywords into a search engine (night splint toe numb pain). Not something I would have thought to search for before this happened.

I also find it curious that there is more information about how to use it in a safer fashion from people posting to this site that in the actual instructions.

To BG CPed: Thank you so much for the additional information and points you made. Especially the way other suppliers would handle the situation. I never saw your previous post on night splints before I purchased the N'ice Stretch. You can believe I will look for it tomorrow. It was my mistake to assume that this site, Scott, and Heelspurs.com would treat me the same way as others before trying to resolve this as a gentleman. NOTE: 'as a gentleman' does not include pistols at dawn. Besides, I can't make accurate paces at dawn without stretching and some crying. However, BG, I do not understand the part about the ankles being cut out to hold the foot in place; my foot seems to slip at the ankle; hence, it doesn't stay seated in the boot.

I might add that I am 5'9' 170lbs and low body fat (yes, it's all muscle, baby!) and in excellent health so there is not a problem, I believe, with weight to keep the N'ice Stretch from fitting properly.

John H.: It is great to hear that you got such great results with the N'ice Stretch. Actually... I am jealous that you got the results I wanted. I used it tonight with the ice after I worked out and will continue to use it for the ice and stretching while awake. I must say that I am inclined to try it again after reading BG CPed's post on their use and paying more attention. Honestly, though, I am worried about the toe numbness but I am sure I did something wrong.

Scott: You wrote in your post that you refunded my credit card. I assume you can see by the records and my e-mail address what my number is. If it has not been processed then I would like you to hold off. I still plan to use it for daytime stretching with the ice. I do not feel that I should receive a refund if I keep the product. But thank you for being so fair, honest, and being concerned enough about my particular problem to do something like that before getting the product back. You can e-mail me directly if you need to.

Alan K: Your comment about the nerve damage going away was something I guess I knew. I was overreacting and your comment helped bring me back to reality. Carmen's comments also made me realize how reactionary I was in my post out of anger.

I was speaking through pain and coffee this morning and I am honored that you all put up with my angry post and took the time to respond. Tomorrow, when I make the 15 foot in 10 minutes walk to the restroom I'll remember all of you and remember to relax a little.

Then I'll go buy a wheelchair.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

BG CPed on 1/17/02 at 06:56 (070241)

No problem. I get a little testy at times as well. I have never heard of a case of long term or permanan nerve damge from that type of device. I have had several that say they used one and the first few nights they kicked it off. If you are going to give it a try reduce the strap tension completly so it is slack (the dorsiflexion straps)

You fascia is tightening up at night, when you step on the floor first thing it pulls at the attachment under heel and hurts. I would get a pair of thick rubber/crepe sport sandals that slip on to wear in the house, those adidas style soccer sandals work well to wear in the shower (not the ones with the massage bumps on them)

Get your footwear evaluated and get a insert fit by a person that specializes in it. You are not doing anything at night to make it hurt, you are doing nothing thats why the fascia gets tight. Its your day time activity that is doing the damage. If your job will allow you to wear a running shoe or cross trainer that would be best but get them measured and fit a proper place, dont just go to billy bobs shoe, bowling and shotgun emporium
Good luck

Re: Stick with us

Carmen on 1/17/02 at 07:32 (070242)

Stay with us...we understand moodiness. ;-) I think we have all hobbled to the computer to vent at one time or another.
Thank you for coming back.
Carm

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/17/02 at 08:17 (070247)

hi jay, thanks for your post, and we certainly do understand the disappointments that come with trying to find the right combo of treatments for you. pf can fly you through the whole gamut of emotions and attitudes, some you never even knew existed. it stinks -- but almost everyone gets better eventually.

about the night splint: maybe my experience will help you put yours so far in a larger perspective. my initial pod (who didn't give a hoot about pf) had a teenage assistant 'fit' my night splint, and that was the extent of my instruction (i.e., none). she put it on too loose -- so that's what i did -- for six months! (it was the blue johnson & johnson night splint.) it didn't do a thing for me, and i was crushed, because a friend of my mother's said her pf was totally cured by this 'boot' thing. when i left the pod's office with it, i called my mother and excitedly exclaimed 'he gave me the boot!' and thought i'd wake up the next day and be better and keep on getting better and be perfect again in a week or two.

six months of worsening went by, and then i found heelspurs.com. It was on here that i learned from others' posts that my pod's assistant had put my splint on WAY too loose, and that's why it had been doing nothing to help my morning pain (which, like you, had me taking ten minutes to walk/crawl from one room to the next). i started to experiment until i got it right, and i do believe it was one of the things that finally began to help my pf.

i know your problems with your night splint were different from mine, but i just wanted to give you another example of how some experimenting with a treatment is sometimes needed before you figure out what's right for you. also, this website is tops -- just about everything i needed to get better (and i'm 90% better) i learned here. i hope this place helps you as much as it has helped many, many people.

good luck, jay, and thanks for coming back and being such a gentleman!
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

paula on 1/17/02 at 09:05 (070253)

hang in there. a night splint took a big bite out of my progress a while back. i should have used it just a little bit at first i think. i can't even face the thing right now. we all get frustrated here because of our pain etc. this is a maddening disability.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

john h on 1/17/02 at 10:18 (070262)

My guess is that some people may put to much dorsiflexion into the adjustable splints. My experience is that neutral or just a couple of degrees should be best.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/17/02 at 10:42 (070266)

I think most of us probably overreacted when we first developed this problem. The nighsplint has been a help but not a cure all. from all i read it is most effective when you experience first step pain in the morning.i have recounted this story before but I will repeat it. When I was first developing PF i went to the doctor with terrible pain on the top of my foot. x-rays and other test showed nothing. This went on for several months until one night I awakened mysely when I kicked the top of a metal bar across the bottom of the bed with the top of my foot while sleeping on my stomach. Aftert that i moved farther up in the bed so my foot could not reach that bar. My pain on the top of my foot went away but my PF did not Like a few other people on the board i tend to sleep on my stomach with my feet somewhat off the side of the bed. This allows your feet to remain in a neutral position. Yes I know it is not good for your back!

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/17/02 at 16:24 (070293)

john, please don't post anymore about sleeping on your stomach. it makes me too envious. i love to sleep on my stomach, but i haven't been able to do it for a year because of the frozen shoulders. in fact, i can't sleep on either side, either, which compared to now was a real treat-and-a-half too.

now i can sleep only my back. that's an awful way to sleep imo, and the whole back side of my body is getting so flat and numb that one of dr. lewi's other ex-wives could use it for an ironing board.

yesterday phil had to spend 45 minutes brushing the snarls out of my too-long hair at the neck. i admit that i'd given up trying to do it myself about five days ago and forgot to mention it to him, so it was getting worse by the day(night). yesterday's brush-out was torture; the neighbors probably thought he was killing me. i'd get a crewcut but i'm REALLY not the crewcut type.

this message belongs on the social board. too late.

nancy

Re: about the refund

Scott R on 1/17/02 at 18:32 (070322)

Jay, the refund has been processed. If you decide that you want to keep the product and pay for it, email me and I'll place a new charge. (There was only one Jay F that had purchased one, so that's how I was able to find it).

Re: Stick with us

Suzanne D on 1/17/02 at 18:55 (070326)

I second what Carmen wrote. That is one of the many nice things about this board: people are genuinely helpful and understanding!

Best wishes on your recovery! I have never worn a night splint although I have tried many of the things I have read about here. I have been hanging my feet off the end of the bed as John H. has described, but I always wake up later having scooted back up in the bed and on my side. But at the time, it feels nice to just let them hang down, especially after having them taped all day and always wearing shoes (I used to go barefoot in the house most of the time!)

Good luck. :-)

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/17/02 at 18:57 (070327)

Your observation is correct. I dispense the N'Ice and Stretch from my office. It really does take a certain amount of patient education to use them correctly and to know what to expect. Despite our best efforts, we find that, for a lot of patients, we need to remind them not to tighten the diagnal straps too rapidly, how to prevent heel slippage and how to place the foam wedge beneath the foot portion.

One more observation that is important for Scott: The devices tend to run a bit small. There are 3 sizes: small-medium, large and extra large. We almost never dispense the small-medium size. The foot portion (foot plate)needs to be long enough so the toes do not hang over the edge--numbness (temporary) often occurs if that happens. The purpose of the foam wedge is to gain some additional dorsiflexion of the toes. Patients with high arched feet often find excess pressure from the device on the balls of their feet so we have them place the wedge just behind the ball of their feet in order to reduce pressure on that area.
Ed

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

Sandy H. on 1/17/02 at 21:33 (070344)

I just posted on another page about this but how long should you use this N'ice Stretch? It helped my heel get better in terms of pain in the morning but I got pain in the ball of my feet instead (where the PF attaches to the big toe) so I stopped using it on the advice of my pod who said that they are intended for shortterm use anyway. What do you think? Worth just using it again whenever you get pain in the heel in the morning worst or should you use it all the time for months? Did other people get pain in ball of foot from using it? (Pod said it is flexor halluces longus tendonitis inferior to the 1st great toe -- and I reckon Birkenstock's arch support being too far forward may have caused it to by the way.)

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

Scott R on 1/17/02 at 22:24 (070346)

I haven't heard of it causing pain in the ball area before.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

JudyS on 1/18/02 at 10:55 (070380)

Jay - there have been some really informative responses to your dilemma re: the nite splint but I thought I'd throw in about a penny's worth just for good measure...
It sounds as though the one thing you weren't a recipient of was thorough instruction on using the splint and what to expect.
Most here had very similar experiences to yours at first. Myself included. Everything you described is what many here went through also. Not one of us expected to have so much discomfort from the darn thing. I, for one, thought it would be a slam-dunk and, initially, thought the problem was ME and wearing it wrong. I just couldn't figure out, then, what was right! Like you, I loosened straps, removed wedge, etc. etc. and was still waking up with a thoroughly cramped foot. To this day I'm convinced that it was one of the things that contributed to an additional tendonitis I developed.
But learning to use it for short periods at a time came to late for me. Although I did find that using it for an hour or two while watching TV in my recliner was effective and even helped to temporarily relieve the PF soreness.
Many here swear by the nite-splint (including your brand) and contribute their ongoing success to it. I'm sorry to hear that you had such a frustrating experience but I must assure you that it's not usually the night splint itself that is poorly made or inadequate......it's more that the patient just hasn't had a good education in it's use and an awareness of just how uncomfortable it can be before it becomes effective. I feel bad for you and I sure hope you'll stick around here in spite of your frustration.

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

JudyS on 1/18/02 at 11:04 (070384)

Yep, it did that to me, Scott. But using a wedge, as Ed has indicated, didn't help. I suspect he's right about that high-arch theory. Pretty much any rigid device I was trying to use, i.e., cast, removable cast, and night splint, seriously developed or contributed to a secondary tendonitis I got in the arch.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/18/02 at 12:12 (070391)

Forgot about your frozen shoulders. How are they doing? When are they going to get well?

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/18/02 at 16:09 (070429)

thanks for asking, buddy john. the frozen shoulders are the pits! the left one is almost as bad as the original right one now -- only it's MORE painful because it's not frozen yet. i don't know when they're going to get better. as usual, i seem to have a long case. my doc basically says i just have to wait it out. i do take a pain med some nights to help me sleep. i'm due to see the doc again, actually -- maybe i'll volunteer for some radical new treatment, like letting someone take a hammer to me, or trying to break down a door, or drinking vehicle coolant.
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/21/02 at 10:22 (070751)

Nancy S: I guess hugging is out? Will wait till you can hug before I come see you and the beach.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/21/02 at 16:49 (070789)

yes john, it's terrible, no hugging for me for a long time. poor phil -- i can just do this tepid little hug and then fall away in pain! absolutely, you must wait till hugging is back in my repertoire before you come visit me and the beach -- and i hope you will! we'd LOVE your company here, and i mean it. open invitation. please bring at least one raccoon with you.
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

John h on 1/21/02 at 17:24 (070793)

Hey Nancy what if we hugged near your 'feinting sofa' would that not work?

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/22/02 at 04:11 (070833)

yes, but first i'll have to get a fainting sofa. i'll get on that right away. you're so creative, john.
nancy

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

alan k on 1/16/02 at 07:50 (070159)

The rules about being nice are about insulting other message board posters, not about your kind of post. You are free to comment on products, and your current message is a very valuable addition to the message board. Hopefully other people on the board will remember the be-nice-rule when responding.

Good and bad experiences with products are very important for the board, and yours is a good addition since few people have complained about this particular product. Could you post more detailed information about how you slipped it on, how tight you adjusted the dorsiflexion, etc? Your info could be a valuable warning for some people in the future.

Now a response: it is indeed possible to cause nerve damage with nightsplints if they are the adjustable kind. Non-adjustable splints are often safe because they do not flex your foot much at all. The temptation for home users is to think more is better, and they crank up the flexion. Also, in ten minutes, or half and hour even, one does not feel much flexion so people think they are being conservative when they are not really. After six hours the fact that they have flexed too much becomes apparent.

So people need to be ery cautious with adjustable nightsplints. I never used this product so I don't know about how loose or tight it is. Sounds like your foot is slipping, but then again it sounds like it is too tight. Could you describe it some more to help people in the future? Thanks!

On a brighter note: 'permanent' nerve damage from mild impingement usually requires a long period before it is difficult to treat. Two weeks or so is just a blip of time unless we're talking very sharp trauma. See your doctor about this, and there probably is no reason why this won't clear up in the future.

alan k

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Carmen on 1/16/02 at 08:23 (070163)

I know Scott's intention is never to take anyone's money for a product that hurts anyone or makes things worse. From what I can tell about him he has the best intentions for helping us save money on things that are more expensive in other places by other sources....I am sure if you tell him in a 'nice' way he will be concerned about your issue with the splint. I understand you are angry and in pain and that is no fun I know! But try to remember that your own instincts are what is important on what feels good and what doesn't...so it's not a good idea to continue something that meks you worse or feels bad from the start.
Good luck...and try to relax about the nerve thing...i am sure it's probably not permanent.

Re: can't be certain about nerve

alan k on 1/16/02 at 08:55 (070165)

It is hard to say how bad a nerve problem might have resulted, as nerves are the hardest darn things to evaluate-- even with expensive medical equipment. But I was saying that long term damage usually goes with long term exposure to irritation. So, say, someone with tts for a few months doesn't have to worry yet that the nerves won't recover if the entrapment is reduced sooner or later. I had tts for two years and my nerves seemed to have recovered. My doctor said it takes about one year for permanent damage to occur. Of course, if your nerves get cut by a blade, it takes less than a second to cause permanent damage. It really depends on what's causing it. My GUESS is that a few weeks of bad night-splinting would not cause permanent damage, but it may take a long time to get better (who knows at this internet distanc) and it may be necessary to consult a doctor about this.

alan k

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

john h on 1/16/02 at 09:06 (070168)

Jay: I do not know if we are talking about the same product but my experience with the Nice Stretch has beeen excellent. I think I only paid Scott about $35 for one that had been returned. I wore out my first one after about 3 years. I realize it is different strokes for different folks but I find in comfortable to sleep in, easy to fold up and carry on trips, and easy to adust the tension with the straps and the velcro tabs are easy to fit. I never use the ice pack that comes with it but after having tries several other more expensive models I really found this the best one suited for 'me'>

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Scott R on 1/16/02 at 18:37 (070220)

Jay, your credit card has been issued a refund. If it's not in too bad condition, please return it and I can sell it used at a discounted price.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/16/02 at 18:54 (070221)

I decide to go back and read the patients comment about this product The bottom line is some say it saved their foot and some couldn't stand or live with the device. Reading these postings in my mind inform the buyer and in no way misrepresent the product. So it can't be a rip off. It just didn't help that person. Maybe a warming from the company any pain numbness discontinue use of the nite splint. Help that is common sense

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

BG CPed on 1/16/02 at 19:33 (070223)

I would say that Scott in no way ripped you off. If he wanted to do that instead of maintaining this board he would spend all day spamming tons of sites and mass emailing to sell products. I posted an earlier response regarding night splints and misuse.

That device is VERY well thought out for a night splint. The fact that the heel and lower ankles is cut out keeps the foot in place. Many devices that have a closed afo style design will cause the heel to lift out, especially on women due to relative short tibia and having a calf muscle that is closer to foot than a mans.

It also is a good thing that it has adjustable dorsiflexion via both straps and forefoot wedge. MISTAKE NUMERO UNO people set it too tight and use the wedge to get extra stretch asap. The believe that it will heal faster, like taking 4 pain pills when it calls for 2.

It puts stress on the fascia and everything else, making the foot feel numb. It is best to try it at 90 degree and no toe ramp for first week or two, then slowly build up.

I would re-think your point. If a Dr that was well meaning suggested you go to get a script filled for drug XYZ. You go and fill it, and after a few doses you get sick and break out in hives. You dont go off on the Dr and the Pharmacist and claim they are crooks and ripped you off.

If a Dr recomended you get a night splint, and you ordered it, you got a night splint AND it was for a good price. There is also more instruction on this site regarding the use of it than 3/4 of all the DME selling them in my area. They will take your money and hand it to you in a bag and say 'wear it at night'

If you didnt get a Dr advice on buying one than you diagnosed and treated yourself. I think Scott handled this well. If you got that from most DME they would tell you to eat it becuase they are not allowed to re-use it.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

Jay F. on 1/16/02 at 23:30 (070232)

It's obvious to see that I overreacted in my original post. I had just woken up and was quite bitter that the night splint did not work. And, now I have nerve damage in my toes that causes excruciatin pain, mostly when I shower. So I hobbled to the computer to 'tell the world' about how I felt cheated. I was expecting, as was my doctor, that this wuold be the answer for me. It makes sense to me that since the pain is in the morning there must be something at night that isn't happening the way it should.

Also, just for the record, I did consult with a doctor. I also read the directons and did not over tighten the straps. Nor did I use the additional toe raising foot thing. I was gentle and I discontinued use when I noticed the numbness in my toes didn't go away. When the numbness would happen in the middle of the night it felt as though they 'were asleep.' that is why I didn't think it would happen again, sort of like a leg or arm getting numb and recovering minutes later.

In my mind I found it difficult to believe that I was the first and only person in the history of night splints that this has happened to. It was only after my bad experience that I found posts here and other places on the web. I found those posts by specifically typing keywords into a search engine (night splint toe numb pain). Not something I would have thought to search for before this happened.

I also find it curious that there is more information about how to use it in a safer fashion from people posting to this site that in the actual instructions.

To BG CPed: Thank you so much for the additional information and points you made. Especially the way other suppliers would handle the situation. I never saw your previous post on night splints before I purchased the N'ice Stretch. You can believe I will look for it tomorrow. It was my mistake to assume that this site, Scott, and Heelspurs.com would treat me the same way as others before trying to resolve this as a gentleman. NOTE: 'as a gentleman' does not include pistols at dawn. Besides, I can't make accurate paces at dawn without stretching and some crying. However, BG, I do not understand the part about the ankles being cut out to hold the foot in place; my foot seems to slip at the ankle; hence, it doesn't stay seated in the boot.

I might add that I am 5'9' 170lbs and low body fat (yes, it's all muscle, baby!) and in excellent health so there is not a problem, I believe, with weight to keep the N'ice Stretch from fitting properly.

John H.: It is great to hear that you got such great results with the N'ice Stretch. Actually... I am jealous that you got the results I wanted. I used it tonight with the ice after I worked out and will continue to use it for the ice and stretching while awake. I must say that I am inclined to try it again after reading BG CPed's post on their use and paying more attention. Honestly, though, I am worried about the toe numbness but I am sure I did something wrong.

Scott: You wrote in your post that you refunded my credit card. I assume you can see by the records and my e-mail address what my number is. If it has not been processed then I would like you to hold off. I still plan to use it for daytime stretching with the ice. I do not feel that I should receive a refund if I keep the product. But thank you for being so fair, honest, and being concerned enough about my particular problem to do something like that before getting the product back. You can e-mail me directly if you need to.

Alan K: Your comment about the nerve damage going away was something I guess I knew. I was overreacting and your comment helped bring me back to reality. Carmen's comments also made me realize how reactionary I was in my post out of anger.

I was speaking through pain and coffee this morning and I am honored that you all put up with my angry post and took the time to respond. Tomorrow, when I make the 15 foot in 10 minutes walk to the restroom I'll remember all of you and remember to relax a little.

Then I'll go buy a wheelchair.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

BG CPed on 1/17/02 at 06:56 (070241)

No problem. I get a little testy at times as well. I have never heard of a case of long term or permanan nerve damge from that type of device. I have had several that say they used one and the first few nights they kicked it off. If you are going to give it a try reduce the strap tension completly so it is slack (the dorsiflexion straps)

You fascia is tightening up at night, when you step on the floor first thing it pulls at the attachment under heel and hurts. I would get a pair of thick rubber/crepe sport sandals that slip on to wear in the house, those adidas style soccer sandals work well to wear in the shower (not the ones with the massage bumps on them)

Get your footwear evaluated and get a insert fit by a person that specializes in it. You are not doing anything at night to make it hurt, you are doing nothing thats why the fascia gets tight. Its your day time activity that is doing the damage. If your job will allow you to wear a running shoe or cross trainer that would be best but get them measured and fit a proper place, dont just go to billy bobs shoe, bowling and shotgun emporium
Good luck

Re: Stick with us

Carmen on 1/17/02 at 07:32 (070242)

Stay with us...we understand moodiness. ;-) I think we have all hobbled to the computer to vent at one time or another.
Thank you for coming back.
Carm

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/17/02 at 08:17 (070247)

hi jay, thanks for your post, and we certainly do understand the disappointments that come with trying to find the right combo of treatments for you. pf can fly you through the whole gamut of emotions and attitudes, some you never even knew existed. it stinks -- but almost everyone gets better eventually.

about the night splint: maybe my experience will help you put yours so far in a larger perspective. my initial pod (who didn't give a hoot about pf) had a teenage assistant 'fit' my night splint, and that was the extent of my instruction (i.e., none). she put it on too loose -- so that's what i did -- for six months! (it was the blue johnson & johnson night splint.) it didn't do a thing for me, and i was crushed, because a friend of my mother's said her pf was totally cured by this 'boot' thing. when i left the pod's office with it, i called my mother and excitedly exclaimed 'he gave me the boot!' and thought i'd wake up the next day and be better and keep on getting better and be perfect again in a week or two.

six months of worsening went by, and then i found heelspurs.com. It was on here that i learned from others' posts that my pod's assistant had put my splint on WAY too loose, and that's why it had been doing nothing to help my morning pain (which, like you, had me taking ten minutes to walk/crawl from one room to the next). i started to experiment until i got it right, and i do believe it was one of the things that finally began to help my pf.

i know your problems with your night splint were different from mine, but i just wanted to give you another example of how some experimenting with a treatment is sometimes needed before you figure out what's right for you. also, this website is tops -- just about everything i needed to get better (and i'm 90% better) i learned here. i hope this place helps you as much as it has helped many, many people.

good luck, jay, and thanks for coming back and being such a gentleman!
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

paula on 1/17/02 at 09:05 (070253)

hang in there. a night splint took a big bite out of my progress a while back. i should have used it just a little bit at first i think. i can't even face the thing right now. we all get frustrated here because of our pain etc. this is a maddening disability.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

john h on 1/17/02 at 10:18 (070262)

My guess is that some people may put to much dorsiflexion into the adjustable splints. My experience is that neutral or just a couple of degrees should be best.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/17/02 at 10:42 (070266)

I think most of us probably overreacted when we first developed this problem. The nighsplint has been a help but not a cure all. from all i read it is most effective when you experience first step pain in the morning.i have recounted this story before but I will repeat it. When I was first developing PF i went to the doctor with terrible pain on the top of my foot. x-rays and other test showed nothing. This went on for several months until one night I awakened mysely when I kicked the top of a metal bar across the bottom of the bed with the top of my foot while sleeping on my stomach. Aftert that i moved farther up in the bed so my foot could not reach that bar. My pain on the top of my foot went away but my PF did not Like a few other people on the board i tend to sleep on my stomach with my feet somewhat off the side of the bed. This allows your feet to remain in a neutral position. Yes I know it is not good for your back!

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/17/02 at 16:24 (070293)

john, please don't post anymore about sleeping on your stomach. it makes me too envious. i love to sleep on my stomach, but i haven't been able to do it for a year because of the frozen shoulders. in fact, i can't sleep on either side, either, which compared to now was a real treat-and-a-half too.

now i can sleep only my back. that's an awful way to sleep imo, and the whole back side of my body is getting so flat and numb that one of dr. lewi's other ex-wives could use it for an ironing board.

yesterday phil had to spend 45 minutes brushing the snarls out of my too-long hair at the neck. i admit that i'd given up trying to do it myself about five days ago and forgot to mention it to him, so it was getting worse by the day(night). yesterday's brush-out was torture; the neighbors probably thought he was killing me. i'd get a crewcut but i'm REALLY not the crewcut type.

this message belongs on the social board. too late.

nancy

Re: about the refund

Scott R on 1/17/02 at 18:32 (070322)

Jay, the refund has been processed. If you decide that you want to keep the product and pay for it, email me and I'll place a new charge. (There was only one Jay F that had purchased one, so that's how I was able to find it).

Re: Stick with us

Suzanne D on 1/17/02 at 18:55 (070326)

I second what Carmen wrote. That is one of the many nice things about this board: people are genuinely helpful and understanding!

Best wishes on your recovery! I have never worn a night splint although I have tried many of the things I have read about here. I have been hanging my feet off the end of the bed as John H. has described, but I always wake up later having scooted back up in the bed and on my side. But at the time, it feels nice to just let them hang down, especially after having them taped all day and always wearing shoes (I used to go barefoot in the house most of the time!)

Good luck. :-)

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/17/02 at 18:57 (070327)

Your observation is correct. I dispense the N'Ice and Stretch from my office. It really does take a certain amount of patient education to use them correctly and to know what to expect. Despite our best efforts, we find that, for a lot of patients, we need to remind them not to tighten the diagnal straps too rapidly, how to prevent heel slippage and how to place the foam wedge beneath the foot portion.

One more observation that is important for Scott: The devices tend to run a bit small. There are 3 sizes: small-medium, large and extra large. We almost never dispense the small-medium size. The foot portion (foot plate)needs to be long enough so the toes do not hang over the edge--numbness (temporary) often occurs if that happens. The purpose of the foam wedge is to gain some additional dorsiflexion of the toes. Patients with high arched feet often find excess pressure from the device on the balls of their feet so we have them place the wedge just behind the ball of their feet in order to reduce pressure on that area.
Ed

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

Sandy H. on 1/17/02 at 21:33 (070344)

I just posted on another page about this but how long should you use this N'ice Stretch? It helped my heel get better in terms of pain in the morning but I got pain in the ball of my feet instead (where the PF attaches to the big toe) so I stopped using it on the advice of my pod who said that they are intended for shortterm use anyway. What do you think? Worth just using it again whenever you get pain in the heel in the morning worst or should you use it all the time for months? Did other people get pain in ball of foot from using it? (Pod said it is flexor halluces longus tendonitis inferior to the 1st great toe -- and I reckon Birkenstock's arch support being too far forward may have caused it to by the way.)

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

Scott R on 1/17/02 at 22:24 (070346)

I haven't heard of it causing pain in the ball area before.

Re: N'ice Stretch made my problem worse

JudyS on 1/18/02 at 10:55 (070380)

Jay - there have been some really informative responses to your dilemma re: the nite splint but I thought I'd throw in about a penny's worth just for good measure...
It sounds as though the one thing you weren't a recipient of was thorough instruction on using the splint and what to expect.
Most here had very similar experiences to yours at first. Myself included. Everything you described is what many here went through also. Not one of us expected to have so much discomfort from the darn thing. I, for one, thought it would be a slam-dunk and, initially, thought the problem was ME and wearing it wrong. I just couldn't figure out, then, what was right! Like you, I loosened straps, removed wedge, etc. etc. and was still waking up with a thoroughly cramped foot. To this day I'm convinced that it was one of the things that contributed to an additional tendonitis I developed.
But learning to use it for short periods at a time came to late for me. Although I did find that using it for an hour or two while watching TV in my recliner was effective and even helped to temporarily relieve the PF soreness.
Many here swear by the nite-splint (including your brand) and contribute their ongoing success to it. I'm sorry to hear that you had such a frustrating experience but I must assure you that it's not usually the night splint itself that is poorly made or inadequate......it's more that the patient just hasn't had a good education in it's use and an awareness of just how uncomfortable it can be before it becomes effective. I feel bad for you and I sure hope you'll stick around here in spite of your frustration.

Re: Night splint -- how long to use it

JudyS on 1/18/02 at 11:04 (070384)

Yep, it did that to me, Scott. But using a wedge, as Ed has indicated, didn't help. I suspect he's right about that high-arch theory. Pretty much any rigid device I was trying to use, i.e., cast, removable cast, and night splint, seriously developed or contributed to a secondary tendonitis I got in the arch.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/18/02 at 12:12 (070391)

Forgot about your frozen shoulders. How are they doing? When are they going to get well?

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/18/02 at 16:09 (070429)

thanks for asking, buddy john. the frozen shoulders are the pits! the left one is almost as bad as the original right one now -- only it's MORE painful because it's not frozen yet. i don't know when they're going to get better. as usual, i seem to have a long case. my doc basically says i just have to wait it out. i do take a pain med some nights to help me sleep. i'm due to see the doc again, actually -- maybe i'll volunteer for some radical new treatment, like letting someone take a hammer to me, or trying to break down a door, or drinking vehicle coolant.
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

john h on 1/21/02 at 10:22 (070751)

Nancy S: I guess hugging is out? Will wait till you can hug before I come see you and the beach.

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/21/02 at 16:49 (070789)

yes john, it's terrible, no hugging for me for a long time. poor phil -- i can just do this tepid little hug and then fall away in pain! absolutely, you must wait till hugging is back in my repertoire before you come visit me and the beach -- and i hope you will! we'd LOVE your company here, and i mean it. open invitation. please bring at least one raccoon with you.
nancy

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

John h on 1/21/02 at 17:24 (070793)

Hey Nancy what if we hugged near your 'feinting sofa' would that not work?

Re: Thanks to ALL who took the time to respond

nancy s. on 1/22/02 at 04:11 (070833)

yes, but first i'll have to get a fainting sofa. i'll get on that right away. you're so creative, john.
nancy