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Off I go...

Posted by Carmen H on 1/22/02 at 11:24 (070876)

I am off to get my orthotics. My husband called and told the lady to see if she could do ANYthing about getting them here ASAP so I wouldn't ahve to go somewhere else and wait another 2-3 weeks...all of a sudden the yare here today. Strange huh?
Three people told me 2-3 more weeks.....
I am going to them to be fitted and than one more time to adjust than I have another POD picked out that has a lab and will work on them,.....also they are very good and I have been there once already.
FINALLY>I hope this helps...I think my arches fell in the last 7 months and that was causing all the burning, back pain, etc...
who knows...

Re: That's GREAT news! Hope they are perfect for you! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/22/02 at 11:55 (070878)

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Re: Off I go...

Carole C on 1/22/02 at 17:02 (070901)

Carmen,

This is so exciting! I hope your orthotics work out really well.

As an aside, I'm a northerner who's lived in the south most of her life. I've found that I love it so much here for a huge number of reasons, but I think it has a few (very slight) disadvantages for me. One is that some people in some parts of the south still seem to assume that if a woman is serious, she'll have a man do her talking for her. It was sweet of your husband to help you with the podiatrist's office!

Carole C

Re: A MAN TALK FOR ME????

Carol C on 1/22/02 at 19:55 (070915)

That will happen on that famous day when HE** freezes over!!!!
Maybe sometimes, people wish that a man would speak for me because
When I speak, I have researched my facts, feel confident in what I am
saying, and can not be SHUT UP until I have the results that I want and
feel are fair. Women have to stand up for themselves and what is right.
It can be done. Men have no louder or stronger or better voice than
I do---and I have proven it many times over.
I suggest all women do the same. There may come a day when you don't have
a man in your life to speak for you--and what happens when that day comes?
I am single and have learned to defend myself. Anyone need lessons in
assertiveness, come see me!

Re: A MAN TALK FOR ME????

Carole C on 1/22/02 at 21:09 (070924)

Well, I am single and I never dragged a man along when I lived in California. But I find that I get better results if I do here. YMMV

Carole C

Re: I should have been more specific

Carmen H on 1/23/02 at 07:30 (070953)

Carole~

I hear you loud and clear! ;o)
Believe me when I say the following...'NO MAN HAS EVER SPOKEN FOR ME'
In this case I had called four times and demanded to speak with the office manager the doctor or even the lab several times. I had made an appt. to go to another pod and start all over again. I was going to be daamned if I gave money to them. Now here's the important part....my husband was soo P#@$%@ off at the Pod's office for taking 8 weeks to get my orthotics he wouldn't take no for an answer even when I said 'you calling them if not going to make those things get here any faster ....I have said all I can say to them toby.'
I had to eat my words b/c apparently he held the golden key to influence that day and three working days later they are here.
If you have read my old posts at all since I have been here you can see that I have no problem with assertivenes in any situation as I explained my stories to this board many times after returning from the docs offices once again disappointed.
Maybe that is part of my problem....hmmmm.
but let me tell you this....I have been alone for most of my adult life..making my own decisions...paying for my own things.....etc etc and it was VERY nice to have a man stick up for me. I never thought I would say that but it was. It was if anything a relief to realize it is really nice not to live solo anymore.
:-)
Maybe you and I could teach assertiveness classes???
:o)

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 07:58 (070956)

I will not join your assertiveness class.

My coworker tried to sign me up for anger management yesterday until he found out that it's where they teach you how to express anger.

Apparently I don't need help with that.

I need yoga.

Re: I should have been more specific

Carmen H on 1/23/02 at 11:10 (070978)

ME too!!! Wendy you crack me up!

Re: I should have been more specific

john h on 1/23/02 at 11:43 (070991)

Wendy: may i suggest a Martha Stewart cooking class for you. I would much prefer that over the dozens of corporate PC self improvement type classes I have attended. I an unsure that any of them ever changed me one iota. As for the Yoga a few months ago I went to observe one of the classes at our club and almost signed up. Problem was there were 10 women and one guy. Not sure I could handle that.

Re: Sure you could John eom

Julie on 1/23/02 at 13:50 (071001)

.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Valerie S on 1/23/02 at 17:04 (071020)

Hi.
In my retail experience, I have found that women are much worse customers and much harder to please... they don't just take it... maybe it's a Michigan thing. Although I have to agree with Carmen too, since I did get married a little later (29), and it is nice when I can get my husband to talk to annoying people on the phone because I am still too nice.

But I still have seen more wives fly off the handle for their husbands than vice versa...

And I also wanted to put in a good word for Martha Stewart... hee hee. I used to think she was just an annoying hag, but now I am starting to like her! Maybe I have been a housewife too long now... I'm starting to scare myself. Well, I have to go out and catch some snow for my special spiced tea.

Val.

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 18:04 (071027)

You handle all the women here just fine.

Why would I want to take a Martha Stewart cooking class?

I like to cook - but I am way too messy in the kitchen, she would kick me out.

Or are you making fun of my Tuna casserole?

I make it once a year.

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 18:53 (071039)

I'm glad I crack you up Carmen, but I kid you not..just yesterday he pulled out the pamphlet and said he thought he'd found the course for me.

Like I said though - it's more on how to express anger. He was looking more for some anger SUPRESSION I think.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carmen H on 1/24/02 at 07:26 (071087)

Valerie....having been in retail for my first job I am with you on that one! Women are the worst! Not to mention in the many years in restaurant management the womens room was always NASTIER than the men's.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Beverly on 1/24/02 at 20:21 (071178)

Women are very hard on other women. I've had great doctors I could hardly stand to visit because of their tacky receptionist's personality and ditto on nurses with attitudes. I don't know why women are so hard on other women.
I've also experienced this with women doctors.

Beverly

Re: ditto with women principals! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/24/02 at 20:46 (071179)

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Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/25/02 at 02:55 (071202)

Do you think these women are busy trying to prove themselves to men?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carmen H on 1/25/02 at 07:37 (071214)

I don't think so...I think they are just bitter about something and haven't moved on from it. could be anything...but I have definitely told a woman or two that I hoped her day got better after she treated me rudely.
One time I faxed a special to this office (it was in the Chamber of commerce book so it was free game!) and she called me and said 'DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH PAPER COST???? YOU TOOK UP 2 PAGES OF PAPER NOT TO MENTION THE INK FROM MY FAX!!!!! TAKE ME OFF YOUR FASXING LIST IMMEDIATELY.'
freak. I mean she lost it. I told her that I apologize for the 'expense' I caused her and hoped her day got MUCH better than it sounded like it was at that moment.
she was mean. If you can't afford two pieces of paper you probably shouldn't be in business.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/25/02 at 08:19 (071215)

Carmen, that's a riot. Seriously - I wonder if our perception of women as being more difficult to deal with isn't skewed by the fact that the kinds of jobs in which this sort of behaviour can be given vent to are generally held by women: secretaries, receptionists, and other 'women's jobs'. If more men were in them, they might be just as frustrated and edgy and irrational and mean. No way of proving it, of course - just a thought.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 09:30 (071220)

My experience with my co-women baseball players is much the same, Beverly. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated because these early years of trying to establish the sport for women dictate that the players themselves work hard as emmissarys on and off the field. Nice theory, don't you think? What we've found instead is that many of the players have come to the baseball (not softball) field with chips on their shoulders after having had to fight their way in to, and through, male sports all their lives. They've come to the women's BB league with very defensive attitudes and have a difficult time accepting the fact that teamwork must be everything!

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/25/02 at 09:55 (071232)

I may start something here BUT. For some reason many women seem to get territorial or catty if you will in many situations not just sports or secretaries. (NOTE I AM SAYING MANY NOT ALL) I have noted in many areas of work, sports from amateur to pro this dynamic. You can have 5 to 10 men in a situation, there will be competition and some dislike but they will generally get the job done. If there are dislikes most men will say 'hey your being an a-$%^^' but do what it takes to get it done. There is ribbing, teasing and mean comments but not the deeper meaner stuff exibited by some women.

If there are 2 to 10 to 100 in a group there seems to be more gossip and back stabbing. I am not sure why that is. I will have men that need an orthotic adjusted or a shoe that needs to repaired or replaced and they are generally less sensitive about it. Many times with women they will make some unreasonable demands or have an attitude early on (pc note I said many times, but not all) wanting to return a shoe that has been worn into the ground, if you have a shoe in 4 colors they want the 5th choice that doesnt exist.

I was talking with an NCAA ref yesterday and he said at high school and college level basketball the girls are much meaner and tenacious than guys.Maybe in sports at higher level the girls have grown up playing with guys so they need to be a little rougher. This is not pick on women just observations. Women are the neatest thing God made besides sports cars, gunpowder, canadian beer and bad feet

Re: speaking of attitutes......

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 10:24 (071238)

Speaking of attitudes.....I was at a car smog station the other day waiting for a smog job to be done on my camper. The tech started the work, etc etc. The camper is a motorhome style on a van chassis so the engine compartment is, more or less, inside the cab. Because I was sitting in the motorhome waiting, I said hello to the tech and noted that they sure were busy - just making conversation. He completely ignored me. Completely. Well, OK.
About an hour later my husband called me on my cell phone. We both were puzzled about the delay with the smog thing so he asked to talk to the tech. The tech refused to talk with him. Later, because I had to know, I asked the tech how much longer it'd be - and I was VERY polite - and he was rude to the point of surprise. A fella standing next to me looked at me and said 'Wow, there was no cause for that behavior'. Last, I was leaning against the open door of my camper chatting with that same fella while we waited, and the tech came up behind me, unbeknownst to me, and jerked the door away from my back causing me to stumble and nearly fall - which I would have done if the guy I was chatting with hadn't caught me. We both went to complain about the tech's attitude - turns out the tech was all PO'd because he'd been called off another job to do this smog job - which evidently didn't sit right with him.
Yep, guys get attitudes too.

Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

Julie on 1/25/02 at 11:08 (071246)

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Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 12:05 (071261)

Julie, in California car emmissions are a big problem in terms of air quality so our cars must undergo 'smog emmissions' checks before being registered or when sold. The engines are hooked up to some machine thingy which measures various aspects of the car's exhaust, etc. The car must pass the smog tests within certain parameters in order to be registered.

Re: I'll have to admit: it starts early!

Suzanne D on 1/25/02 at 12:08 (071263)

Generally speaking, in terms of misbehaving children at school, boys are easier to deal with than girls! The boys may get louder and rougher, but then they get over it and don't seem to hold grudges. Misbehaving little girls often do the sneaky things and try to get others involved: 'Let's not be friends with....'

It must be 'the nature of the beast'...:-)

Re: I'll have to admit: it starts early!

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 13:22 (071272)

I don't think it's the 'nature of the beast'. I think it's the nature of the beastly cultural models that have come for generations before the current crop of little girls and boys.
If three little boys and three little girls were stranded on a desert island in infancy, how would they grow culturally, behaviorly, etc? Would the girls be catty gossips? Would the boys pick fights? Two things we can be somewhat certain of, most of the boys would be protectors and most of the girls would be nurturers - that seems to be a biological reality. But suppose a boy wanted to care for a young one and a girl wanted to go hunt? Would there be a culture in place that would ridicule that?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

wendyn on 1/25/02 at 13:24 (071273)

Given a choice, I would prefer to work with men than women. Or at least a balance. I've found an even split between number of men and women on a project seems to work well too. It's the offices that are almost all women that I've seen a lot problems in.

I agree with what you said, I prefer much the speak your mind and then get on with it attitude. Not the grudge bearing, back stabbing that some groups get into. I've found that there are a number of people that I like on a personal level - but I think they're useless workwise. There are others that I like to work with, but I certainly wouldn't hang out with on the weekend. It's nice when people realize that the two really can be exclusive. And just because you disagree with someone at work, doesn't mean you dislike them as a person.

Re: good point, Judy! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/25/02 at 14:08 (071278)

.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carol C on 1/25/02 at 22:13 (071332)

Good thing you are NOT counting on me to buy my ORTHOTICS or SHOES
or anything else from your....you would be waiting a long time.
Sounds like you don't like dealing with women customers. I am sure
there is someone out there who is capable of providing service of
equal quality who would welcome the business or WOMEN and not feel
the need to degrage them to or compare them with---as you put it
'Women are the neatest thing God made besides sports cars, gunpowder, canadian beer and bad feet'
Wonder how successfull a business can be for how long with a
proprietor with that kind of attitude?

Re: Thanks, Judy. eom

Julie on 1/26/02 at 02:52 (071353)

.

Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

Carmen H on 1/26/02 at 10:51 (071385)

We have emission testing in Atlanta too it takes about 30 minutes....

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 14:46 (071535)

Wow that was a little harsh. I WAS JOKING AT THE END.I guess I should not assume that something that silly would be understood by a reasonable person. I would also assume that the other comments made that were of a similar opinion of mine but authored by females were included?
I was not making a blanket indictment on women, I was commenting on certain traits exibited by SOME women. I dont cut corners or treat anybody different as a patient or customer. Sorry you got so riled by it. I hope for the sake of sensitivity and diversity you intended some of your post towards the ladies that also made observations similar to mine.

I am up 20% from last year so I cant be that mean of a guy.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

John h on 1/27/02 at 18:33 (071556)

BG: you definitely need some sensitivity training big guy. If you think you got heat before just wait till you here about your two words 'SOME women'! I have had my sensitivity training and look at me now. As they would say in jolly old England 'Madame I am your humble servant how may I help you?'. I need some further training however as I am still confused. In my era men opened doors for the ladies, pulled out chairs for the ladies ,the ladies never walked next to the curb as the man did, we helped them put on their coats and other such things. Are we supposed to still do those things or is this stuff out? With a little further training BG you should be ok.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 19:07 (071561)

Thank you John, I try to be a good student but for some reason I just dont get it.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

paula on 1/27/02 at 20:14 (071575)

bg ped that was a real nasty riff in my opinion. i have seen your dark humor and liked it here. the emu riff was hilarious i thought. (where is that riff, i've misplaced it). so it is concievable that you are just kidding but i really think you need to think about the way you come accross on this board. i have felt like carol expressed many times here by many things you have said. i know you are here to help and here to socialize and that is fine, but if you are here to generate business as well, and i see nothing wrong with that, then you should know that many of your posts strike me as mean spirited and trying to stir up trouble here. you upset carol and i can see why. how many more of us have you turned off? is this the professional presentation you want to make on a regular basis?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 21:49 (071581)

John, it's simple. If you open the door for us, then it's condescending and you did the wrong thing. If you don't open the door for us, then you are rude, and you did the wrong thing.

Hope I made this clearer for you. Any time you guys want a lesson in propriety, I'm more than happy to help. :)

Carole C

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 22:05 (071582)

Actually I am not here to gain business. I was just making an observation that was based on past experience. It was not my intent to target any individual person, I used no proper names. I find it strange that while others made similar observations they were not called on it.The points I made (which I also inserted disclaimers)were a few simple things followed by an obvious joke.

I find it strange that some folks on here have a way of policing the board for what they perceive to be not nice, or cross some invisible line that they have established to be 'the rules' I have not called anybody names. I did call out a poster that had came from nowhere with his first post and it was filled with phone, price and website. I was lectured on it, and guess what? That valuble new member has not contributed anything since. I would assume he was another gentle soul that my mean spirited post chased away.

Diversity of personalities and ideas is supposed to be a good thing, If I am sometimes sarcastic or crack jokes sorry, that is me. This board would get very mundane if it was all the same stuff all the time. I may find reading a 20 post thread about how bad somebody got screwed on their orthotics to be mean spirited or offensive. I dont take it personal or get on anybody over it.

I have noted several posts on what is the correct delivery as judged by some, I think Sir Elliott was the primary offender. I am fully aware of all of the views on that, so spare the review. All this bad karma directed my way has me feeling a little bad. I think I will brew some herbal tea and listen to my wind chimes.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carol C on 1/27/02 at 22:06 (071583)

I don't think that what I said was nearly as harsh as your having compared
women to the things you did.....my comments by the way, were in response to YOUR post and not to others....strictly in response to you. It is never wise to ASSUME anything....remember the old addage about what happens
when you assume----
Your post sounded very much to me that you were attacking the woman
customer. I am certianly glad that I am not one of yours. Hopefully
that 20% increase in business is in MALE business. With the attitude
you displayed towards women, you do not deserve an increase brought
on by their efforts.
I am sorry if you find my post offensive, but I found you to be most
offensive. AND NO,I DO NOT AS YOU SUGGEST--- 'hope for the sake of sensitivity and diversity you intended some of your post towards the ladies that also made observations similar to mine.'
I don't think that those ladies are out there making their living off selling items to the public and then belittling and degrading those customers on a website.
Thank you.

Re: This is getting old...

wendyn on 1/27/02 at 22:52 (071586)

Carole, you need to take a deep breath.

And one more.

I have re-read BGCped's first post twice.

All through the post he indicates that it is just his opinion, he uses words like 'it seems' a lot, or that things have been his experience. He never gave women a blanket condemnation. He is as entitled to express his opinion like that as anyone here. I read the last line as a sarcastic understatement - nothing moe.

I think people are getting confused.

There is a BIG difference between saying what YOU think, and making statements that OTHERS are WRONG. They are not the same. By him saying what he thinks - he is no more wrong than anyone else for having an opinion.

You can disagree with him all you want - and express all the opinions of your own that you want - but there'a line between that and policing what he says and telling him he's wrong.

BGCped has been a valuable contriubtor to this board for a very long time, and it would be unfortunate to see him chased off over this.

That is not what this board is about - and I too am becoming uncomfortable with the number of times people are being called on their carpets for their opinions.

Don't agree with them - you don't have to. But please allow some freedom for different viewpoints. Even if they are not your own.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

wendyn on 1/27/02 at 22:55 (071587)

See Carole - lots of us use sarcasm as humour - including yourself in this post to John. I'm guessing that you are kidding. Right?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:10 (071591)

Just some friendly, casual joking around. I like John, BCG, Carol C, you, and all the people on the board... I don't feel like any of us are bad people and I owe so much to all of you, every single one of you without exception. I do think that men in this day and age are in kind of a dilemma when it comes to things like opening doors. I honestly do sympathize with them on that. :)

Carole C

Re: This is getting old...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:16 (071592)

Wendy, it was probably a typo, but that post was written by Carol C, who is different from me, Carole C. So your comments should be addressed to Carol, not Carole. I have a very different outlook on life from Carol although I try to respect everyone's outlook including hers.

Thanks,

Carole C

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:54 (071593)

Newsflash! Listen up! Carol C and Carole C are two different people. Carol C has been here longer than me, and doesn't post as much. I think she lives in Alabama. She posts on the TTS board and I seldom or never do because I don't have TTS. If I remember right she had surgery and I haven't had any surgery.

Carol C was here when I got here, but I didn't realize there was a Carol C or I would have signed CLC or something like that instead of Carole C. I'm the one who is relatively new here, got PF in September, lives in New Orleans, and got a shower stool and custom orthotics in December and who is doing so well lately and who loves night blooming jasmine lotion.

Carol C is a neat person like all of us but on this particular thread we happen to think differently. I think BCG sounds like a man who appreciates women, and who recognizes that there are differences between women and men. I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, Carol, and that's no big deal. In my opinion I don't think he meant anything bad at all by any of this.

Carole C (NOT Carol C)

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

paula on 1/28/02 at 00:48 (071594)

carol c, you live in alabama? i'm in georgia. we are going to alabama often cause relative just got diagnosed with cancer. i love the countryside there. very pristine and unpopulated comparatively. and the rural deep south is what i imagine america was long ago in many ways. the friendliness, trustingness. asked directions and a stranger lead us in his car to the next town 30 minutes away and turned around. an hour drive for him. or the stranger who when we stopped and asked where a public bathroom was in the middle of nowhere said use mine. it's right up the road, the door is open. i'm from new york city originally and stuff like this blows me away.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 03:18 (071597)

Politeness, gentlemanly behavior, chivalry and so on never go out of style.
Those should not be confused with attitudinal unwillingness to try to respect a gender for it's unique characteristics. Some men have come to think that 'going with the flow' is demonstrative of not being chauvinistic but that's not accurate. Going with the flow as a blanket cure to gender-relation issues is avoidance - avoidance of really taking the time to think about what it takes to respect a person's, or gender's, uniqueness. When a statement like 'Don't even try to understand women' is made, even if it's said in jest, not only does it dehumanize a gender, many women know that it's part of that 'invisible chauvinism' - the one that even the people who are afflicted by it don't know they have. Even statements by we women about how hard it is to get along with other women is insensitive and serves to reinforce men's' stereotyping of us. I tend to want to think that we find more 'ornery' women in public because there are so many more women then men in public arenas as consumers or as support staff.
Even joking statements from we women like 'open the door and you're wrong, don't open the door and you're wrong' can be misleading and leave the men folk still scratching their heads about what women want when we're willing to make the kind of jokes that the poor fellas get criticized for.

So very many men feel that they're not chauvinistic and, in fact, feel that they're working very hard not to be. And I'll bet they ARE working really hard not to be. But there are different kinds of chauvinism and the worst is the one that is not behavioral, but rather attitudinal because it's nearly impossible to recognize from within after generations of conditioning.

Men needn't be anyone's 'humble servants' - respecting a gender is not about 'giving in' to it. the humble servant idea reinforces the point that avoidance is the easiest thing to do for many men - and why not, John h is right, men don't know what to do because there are no easy answers. We ask for 'equality' but can't always tell them how to give it. Why? Because the attitudinal part of it is a wisp of wind - impossible to catch and work with. However, going with the flow as a 'humble servant' is not a part of 'sensitivity training'. Sensitivity is about respect, not patronization. I don't think guys have to be puzzled about understanding women. Understand and respect them as individuals first - then respect, don't patronize, the unique qualities that make them part of their gender. It is still an 'era' for politeness and people should not give up time-proven standards of politeness or those standards will become extinct in this overwhelmingly PC world.
Brian you are right - your statement was really no more insensitive than those that came before from both genders in the thread. We women get a little reactive when we come in second behind cars and bad feet...and are perhaps in that stage of cultural evolution where even jokes from such good guys as yourself feel demeaning.
It's interesting that women didn't start filling this thread with 'Men are......(fill in the blank)' making blanket statements about things wrong with the male gender.
In conclusion (sorry, it's a long-winded moment) I egotistically put forth the theory that these kinds of issues are really not because of gender - they're because of a culture that began way way long ago and which is going through painful changes - the pain being from not knowing what to do, what to think, what's right, what's wrong. And look at the signals the fellas get from women occasionally - this thread being an example. We've basically told our male PF pals that it's OK to generalize negatively about women by doing so ourselves.
Being polite is right no matter what. If a woman doesn't like having a door open for her she can be nice about it or not. The behavior of the door opener and that of the 'openee' only serves to expose their individual characters, whatever they may be, and it needn't have anything to do with gender.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

Julie on 1/28/02 at 04:35 (071598)

Whew! Thanks for clarifying this, Carole. For a while there I couldn't figure out what was going on, and thought I was seeing double. But I realized that there are actually two of you when I read the post-before-the-clarifying-one that said 'I like Carol C'. I'm not sure Wendy realized it before her post, but I'm sure she does now.

Thanks again.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 05:32 (071599)

I thought I'd start by getting rid of that inflammatory subject line.

Judy, that was a great, thought-provoking post. It really is not easy to make sense of these issues, but I agree with you that they're essentially issues of culture, but of gender. Kindness and basic humanity, and the way they're expressed or not expressed by individuals, have got overlaid by the myriad misconceptions and arguments about gender, but I think you've gone to the heart of it in your final paragraph.

'The behaviour of the opener and the openee serves to expose their individual characters' is what I was thinking too. A woman's surly, rejecting refusal to have a door opened is bound to confuse and hurt a man who meant to be kind (or even simply polite: they're not necessarily the same thing). But it has little or nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with the way some people treat other people, regardless of gender.

Perhaps age has something to do with it too. For example, I'm an independent person with feminist convictions on the political/economic/educational level (equal pay for equal work, equality of opportunity, sensible child care provision for working women, healthy representation in Parliament, etc) and plenty of sister loyalty. I always have been, but I'm also in my 60s and I like having doors opened for me. I like it that my husband automatically walks on the curb side, and that he helps me into my jacket. He does these things without having to think about them because that's how he was brought up - but he also does them kindly, and I accept and appreciate them in that spirit.

Perhaps a younger women feels differently, perhaps her particular conditioning has made it difficult for her to walk happily through the door held open. Perhaps she can't free herself of the trap of thinking that any man who opens a door for her is patronizing her. Whatever - she has the choice as to how she behaves in that situation: with grace and humanity, or otherwise.

A man can't be blamed for being confused by a woman's rejection of kindness or politeness. It's sad when that happens. But it's equally sad if he uses the experience to generalize about women's attitudes, instead of taking it as an example of inconsiderate human behaviour.

No conclusions, just a few thoughts.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 05:34 (071600)

Line 3: that should have been 'these are issues of culture, NOT of gender'. Bad proofreading.

Re: Oooops

wendyn on 1/28/02 at 08:10 (071604)

Same opinion from me..regardless of the poster - but you're right!!!!

I did have the two confused.

I was having trouble sorting out what I percieved to be some huge shift in personality.

I've been confused with the two before but never quite like this.

Re: BG.

john h on 1/28/02 at 10:19 (071622)

BG: speaking of more business do you cast a foot with a person layin on thier back,stomack, sitting, or standing? Can a proper cast be made through the mail? What are your thoughts on the soft custom made orthotics?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

john h on 1/28/02 at 10:47 (071625)

In my real life world when I walk out the door and interact with people I do no have a thought about 'Men' or 'Women'. I just am what I am and act the way I learned as a child which has been modified by my life's circumstances and expriences along the way. In few things do I classify women or men as a group except for the obvious such as having babies or playing pro football. I sure am glad there are women and men. We are all uniquely different regarless of gender. I hope I do not offend anyone along the way but as Ricky Nelson sang in Garden Party 'you cannot please evryone', I can have a woman as a friend and share with her as well as I can any man. We have both women and men out there who could do better but in the real world I do not think it is going to happen with sensitivity trainig. I learned early to open doors for the ladies,the old, and the infirm. I will always do this. As a matter of fact I open door for anyone regardless of who or what they are. It is just called courtesy in my world. It is a lot easier being nice than being otherwise. I of course that being nice is subjective but that is why we cannot please everyone.

Re: it's my fault :(

Carole C on 1/28/02 at 11:38 (071631)

I'm sorry, y'all! It's all my fault. I should have changed my handle when I first noticed Carol C's posts, but that was a couple of weeks after I started posting. Then, I thought 'oh well, it's spelled differently' but I guess it's still too confusing.

I've never met another Carol(e) C., but I should have thought about the fact that there might be another one. I'm sorry! Do you think maybe I should change to another handle? I could sign my posts CLC or something like that. Sometimes I use CLCinNOLA (my initials, in New Orleans LA). Would it be easier if I sign that way?

Carole C

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 12:13 (071633)

Julie, in my 'long-winded' post I'd originally included a paragraph about the beauty and rewards of age in that it opens one's eyes to the rewarding acceptance of individual character as well as that of a body of folks in, say, a gender.
One of the most rewarding things I've learned with age is that maleness in men is very, very nice and to be admired. There was a time when I thought men had machismo just for the sake of some silly and shallow male ego. Not so. I was wrong. Machismo is indeed a uniquely male thing and a pleasure to realize, observe, and accept without question as long as it doesn't interfere with basic respect.
While I've worked pretty hard to make my way, unthreateningly, in typically male activities (I LOVE knocking down walls and playing ball) I've never been willing to give up my 'femaleness' to do so. And I've always been thrilled with being treated like a lady. I have a somewhat unique recreational life in that I spend lots of time in a dugout with men. We've been playing ball together for years and, over that time, the men have become comfortable with the knowlege that they don't have to worry about acute gentlemanliness in the dugout and they, and I, are more than willing to just be plain-old good teammates.
Granted there are rare moments when a newcomer or two may get raunchy about a female player but, frankly, they don't last long. Nobody, men and women alike, really likes that stuff.
There was never a time in my life that I disliked gentlemanly behavior. For women to tell men that being a gentleman is demeaning is ludicrous. Like you, I sincerely appreciate, and sometimes marvel at, the willingness of men to be gentlemen. After 25 years, I am still amazed, every time, when my husband nudges me to the inner edge of the sidewalk when we're out walking or jogging.
Perhaps this is a mixed message on my part?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:30 (071680)

John, I'm glad too that there are women and men. And you can open doors for me all you like. And I will appreciate it. And you.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:32 (071681)

Sounds all of a piece, Judy, not the least bit mixed. Very consistent and human.

Re: it's my fault :(

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:36 (071682)

Nothing to apologize for, Carole. But don't change to CLC - it's too impersonal Stick with Carole, but perhaps amend the 'C' by adding the second letter of your surname. Or Carole NOLA would be nice. When we had two Barbaras, one was TexBarb, the other BarbNY.

What happened to Barb NY?

And TexBarb, where are you?

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

BrianG on 1/28/02 at 18:01 (071688)

Hi Carole,

Just to make it a little more confusing, I'm BCG and haven't contributed to this thread, until now. BG Cped is a profssional, most likely works 5 days a week, and contributed here yesterday. BCG is a an old broken down hippy who can't work due to PF. But I did have night blooming jasmine growing outside my window in Hawaii. BG Cped most likely has jasmine oils and incense, inside his windows (just guessing :*)

I hope everyone has paid attention, testing will be in the near future, hahahaaaa

BCG

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 18:08 (071689)

That one was my mistake, Brian, my apologies. Broken down old hippies are some of the coolest characters our world has to offer so three cheers for you!

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 18:23 (071693)

like bcg, i'm a broken down old hippie, and i wish i felt cool!
i keep forgetting the (relatively) 'broken down' part and try to work too fast and too long. of course, right now part of this is just plain excitement about working at all.
but tonight when i came dragging into the house phil said 'you worked too much, i can tell,' and 'remember you're not 28 anymore.' the thing is, until pf hit, i could live and work as if i'm still 28 and i got away with it! after the last 2+ years, i don't get away with it.
so i'm humbly trying to adjust my expectations.
shoot.
nancy

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

paula on 1/28/02 at 18:24 (071695)

yes we are cool. no doubt about it.

Re: it's my fault :(

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 18:24 (071696)

I think you and I had the same thoughts, Julie, GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike). I tried 'Carole C in NOLA' a while ago, and that looks all right.

Carole C

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

paula on 1/28/02 at 18:25 (071697)

hippies work hard?

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 18:29 (071700)

Oh wow! I did the same thing as Wendy. I thought you were both one person, a C.Ped. who used to live on the Kona coast and thumb rides.

Well, I like both of you. So there! (grin)

Carole C

Re: john

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 18:37 (071701)

i have to say, at first, over two years ago, i wasn't sure what to make of you, john -- how to know when you were serious and when not. once i figured it out, i realized you're one of the most delightful people i know.

in no way do you ever offend me, personally, with lighthearted men/women jokes. i see you as an open, humorous person who sees each individual afresh and as a real human being. and i know you care -- deeply -- about people as people (and animals as animals!). you're unique, and i couldn't place you in any category and wouldn't want to try.

you can open the door for me anytime, especially with these stupid frozen shoulders! -- but with or without. and i'd do the same for you, and i know there wouldn't be a problem with any of it.

i have my own feminist beliefs, and a lot of other beliefs as well, but i always see the individual first and try to leave plenty of room for variations on a theme. for me: individuals first, sociological categories much later.

in the book 'pioneer women,' one 19th-century woman wrote of how people, men and women alike, often confided in and felt safe with her mother because her mother 'always made allowances for human frailties.' we all have them, and i think i would've loved that woman's mother.
nancy

Re: BG.

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 19:34 (071710)

I do mostly non wt bearing on a foot scanner. It takes a digital cast that is then sent to milling machine in back of lab for fabrication. Depending on the foot type self casting is somewhat iffy. Generally a hypermobile foot that pronates will make a distorted impression in many self casting systems. Also the fabricator has not seen you walk, stand etc. so they have to extrapolate from an impression only.
The devices I make are about 65 durometer eva, about the same as the sole on a firm athletic shoe. Let me know if you have any other questions

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 20:22 (071715)

Thank you for clearing up some things about your posts. I am sorry that I assumed you were spreading the blame to ALL folks that made comments, when in fact it was only directed at mine. I found it weird that you singled me out. The fact that I own a foot related business means I cant have opinions, perhaps I should have a clip on tie and be a thoughtless toadie like some fast food counter person?
I was simply stating from my experience as was Wendy and a few other folks did. I guess if I worked at a tire store or was a female your response would be different?
As for your opinion that I was 'attacking' women customers or 'degrading' them, that is a big stretch. Using that logic would make giving a women the finger for cutting you off would amount to assault with intent? Simply making an honest observation on actual events that did occur with some frequency is considered REALITY i.e. it really does and did happen. Just to show you I am an equal opportunity observer, MEN can also be difficult. I am sure most on here would agree that men dont follow break in, tell them to wear them 1 hour first day and they will wear them 8 hours because they didnt think it applied to them.
Male runners are probably the worst of all for this. They also will try to 'fix' an orthotic by grinding, gluing or working on their orthotics at home, women never do this.
As for my business, most of my base is women, probably 65%. ALL of my business is referal from Dr. or word of mouth. I can assure you if I didnt know what I was doing or was not nice I would be cut off in a second. The last thing a Dr. wants is complaints.
I am glad you expressed your bias by pointing out that your nasty comments were only directed at me, inspite of the fact similar observations were made by women. I would conclude from that you dont practice equality, and that is ok because thats whats great about this country.
As for your ideas on my treatment of women, you are way off. Women are great. I hold doors everywhere even though 1/2 the time you dont even get a thank you. I have used a swear word 2 times in front of my Mother, one shi& and one ass&&le both directed at somebody else.
Contrary to the belief of some, men and women are not the same in many respects. They compliment each other but are different.
I appreciate the support and imput on this thread. There are some very interesting and intelligent women on here. And special tip to my Canadian friend Wendy. You are a good mix of logic, reason and rational thought, even though you have some serious rotation of your lower extremities

'BG CPed, PROPHET OR MADMAN?'

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*) -- hippies working hard

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 20:23 (071716)

paula, heh heh. i do work hard, especially when it feels like my own work. then i enjoy myself hard too. i can enjoy seemingly minor things. sometimes seemingly minor things make me ecstatic. (i haven't smoked pot in decades, by the way.)

Re: FROM CAROL C TO BG CPED

CAROL C (From Alabama) on 1/28/02 at 21:47 (071725)

The fact that I own a foot related business means I cant have opinions, perhaps I should have a clip on tie and be a thoughtless toadie like some fast food counter person?

GEE--YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YOU??? A LOT OF FAST FOOD PEOPLE SPEND A LOT OF TIME OF THEIR FEET AND COULD BE POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS...AND THERE YOU
GO SLAMMING THEM---YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

CAROL C (From Alabama) on 1/28/02 at 21:52 (071727)

Yes Paula..I am from Alabama--Huntsville, Alabama--maybe my southern heritage has something to do with my prefering to be treated as a LADY
and not compared to gunpowder and bad feet. LOL....
What part of Alabama are you visiting these days? Alabama is a friendly
place---and contrary to what some may think, I am really a very friendly
person and have my share of southern hospitality to share. I am glad to hear that your experiences in Alabama have been pleasant so far. If there is anything I can do to help let me know.

Re: Sorry, BG CPed !

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 22:16 (071729)

I meant to say,

'I think BG CPed (not BCG) sounds like a man who appreciates women, and who recognizes that there are differences between women and men. I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, Carol, and that's no big deal. In my opinion I don't think he meant anything bad at all by any of this. '

Thanks

Carole C

Re: open mouth, insert foot

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 22:18 (071730)

Not to say that BCG doesn't think these things too, but I have no idea. The more I say, the worse this gets. LOL

Carole C

Re: Thoughts on men

wendyn on 1/28/02 at 22:30 (071733)

Since you brought it up BGcped.

I live with 4 men (one husband and 3 boys). Many of my closest friends are men, so I figure that I know more about them than I ever wanted to.

I laughed at your men not following instructions because it doesn't apply to them. I told my husband Sunday that apparently the drivers rule book has a disclaimer that says it applies to all drivers EXCEPT Mike.

And just to even the playing field a bit, although I prefer to work with more men based on the attitude thing....my experience has also been that it's usually women who jump into new projects and responsibilities with enthusiasm and a goal in mind. They seem to be better at getting things done (in my humble experience) with less direction needed- and the dedication really seems to show through. Men seem to be much more willing to let someone else worry about things.

Again, just a generalization - but if you work with enough people you do start to see broad gender differences and similarities.

As for the POO list I keep - an unscientific guess would be that the individuals who find themselves there are roughly 98.9 % men.

Re: open mouth, insert foot

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 23:11 (071740)

Dont worry C, your cool. You are right I do. I didnt think this was getting bad, I thought it was rather funny AND educational. I just wish some people would be more sensitive and stop using all CAPS. I wear glasses and it is hard to read for us people that are visually challenged. Also it is shouting and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Re: If you hold a door open for me...

Carole C in NOLA on 1/29/02 at 06:21 (071754)

If you hold a door open for me, I promise I'll thank you! LOL

My mother taught me to always thank anyone who opens the door for me. She also taught me that a man opening a door for a woman doesn't mean he thinks she can't do it; it means he respects the fact that she's a woman and that women and men are different.

Vive la difference!

Carole C

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

Julie on 1/29/02 at 08:04 (071755)

Brian, I'm with you on caps. Caps are certainly difficult to read, for everyone, not only us wearers of. A typographer would explain (I'm not, but I know something about it, having spent a lifetime in publishing) that it's because capital letters don't have ascenders (the bits that stick out above the line of the letter's main body, as in 'b' and 'd') or descenders, the bits that stick out below the line (as in 'p' and 'y'), so that everything written in all caps looks the same, which is very quickly tiring for the eye.

What I think - but I don't suppose it will change anyone's ways, and why should it? - is that emphasis ought to come from the words themselves, and how they are put together. Better to understate than to overstate. Over-emphasising, as with caps, italics, double exclamation marks, etc, always defeats its purpose.

Re: Scott, my posts are doubling again. EOM

Julie on 1/29/02 at 08:06 (071757)

.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

paula on 1/29/02 at 08:07 (071758)

carol c i think you are a fine person and i agree with what you have said here as well. i lived in hunsville. nice place. beautiful park. the dad is just outside of birmingham. i live in atlanta. i also did not like to see all the folks that struggle to make a living and stand all day in the fast food business alluded to as people without intelligence. i eat at the local waffle house a couple of times a week. the waitresses there are kind, good people just trying to get by on very little pay for very hard work. most of them have foot and leg pain and can't really afford much help like some of us here. i like and respect all of them. they do not have education nor do they have job skills but they have their opinions and ideas just like the rest of us. and they call me 'honey' so of course i go back. in fact, since i am in a wheelchair i find that the peeple at the lowest end of the pay scale are the first to jump out of their seats and open doors for me or ask me if i need help and generally talk to me like i am a human. when i go to doctors at the rich part of town olmost no one does that for me. as i struggle over a high threshold they mostly look away like i am a bad smell. it makes me feel lousy. i wish my doctor's office was in the waffle house.

Re: Scott, my posts are doubling again. EOM

paula on 1/29/02 at 09:15 (071766)

is this julie from england? hi. in my new york italion and jewish family it was always better to overstate then to understate. when i met my partner from alabama we had a hard time for a while. all his humor and general statements were understated all mine overstated. like him pointing out a poisonous snake and saying getting bitten would ruin my whole afternoon. or my saying 'Ohmygod' whenever a nail broke. we used to joke that if the house was on fire, the dog poisoned and a gun pointed at our heads he'd say very slowly and calmly 'paula i think we might have a little problem' and for years he'd think disaster hit cause i was overstating about very little.

Re: Paula

Julie on 1/29/02 at 10:46 (071787)

Hi Paula

I'm from The Bronx. But I've lived in England since 1961 and have some English ways may have rubbed off.

Have you and your guy worked out an over/under-state modus vivendi yet?

Re: Paula

paula on 1/29/02 at 11:54 (071790)

i think we have worked it out. he has dampened my spirit and i have wrecked his nerves:) . hey, don't let the english turn you. three times a day wave your arms around wildly and say with a bronx accent 'expletive deletive' at the slightest thing. you'll be back to normal in no time.

Re: john

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:28 (071805)

Nancy S. what a sweet thoughtful message. You just made my day. I think we as humans rarely change from what we are in one big swoop but over time we evolve and grow with changing morals and what is acceptable and unacceptable. Some people do not change and are stuck back in the gerneration they grew up in. So many things that were acceptable and considered the norm when I was growning up are totally unacceptable today.Many people my age refuse to learn about computers and all the wonderful information that is available and the wonderful people you can meet. When I was a child I do not remember one of my friends mom's who worked. Women were not pilots for American Air Lines and were not flying fighters off the aircraft carrier Enterprise. There was no such thing as a stay at home dad or male nurses or male flight attendants. From my perspective most of the changes that have occured in my life time are very much for the good. Some are not. I hope I have grown with the times and look forward to learning something new each day. It is great to hear the perspectives of all the people on this board. People from all walks of life and from all over the world. How can you not learn something here beyond PF which may in fact alter your views about life in general. It is great being a part of this board. I would never have met Julie in London, Judy in San Diego, Itai in Israel. Nancy N and S, Neece, Barb, Scott, GlennX, BG, Steve, Yoko, Laurie, Carmen, Dr Z and Dr Ed and on and on and on. This is awsome and you all are awsome.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:33 (071807)

BG buddy I know you will find your way out of the jungle. You took the path less traveled. I still want your input about casting the feet. In what position? Can you do a good foot impression by mail?

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:39 (071808)

The Crimson Tide! The Arkansas Razorbacks will be rolling into your fair state for a big basketball game on Wednesday night Carol. I think you have a nationally ranked team. When I was going through flight training my very first night solo flight was to Montgomery. All you guys seemed to hang out down at Panama City during the summer. I am sure Scott still hangs out down there looking for girls in his spare time.

Re: Thoughts on men

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:41 (071809)

One thing for sure Wendy I never never stop and ask for directions until I am almost out of gas and one time I did run out of gas and my wife has never to this day let me forget it.

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:46 (071811)

when you guys start talking about grammar and spelling you enter a world and I and Dr Z no nothing about. I can give you Ohm's law or the algebraic formula but in the world of grammar and english I am a total failure. I must have been pulling Peggy Savage's pigtails when they were teaching these subjects.

Re: Thoughts on men

nancy s. on 1/29/02 at 14:26 (071816)

most guys can't stand to admit that they're running out of gas. there may be something a little freudian here, i don't know.

i first noticed this very early in life. i still notice it.
nancy

Re: Panama City???

Carol C on 1/29/02 at 15:26 (071821)

That is for the younger of the crowd...now that I am older, I prefer
the nicer, quiter---GULF SHORES.........ahhhhhhhhh---take me away!

Re: Panama City???

john h on 1/29/02 at 15:40 (071826)

Carol C. and my hangout is Destin. I do travel through Gulf Shores on occasion on my way to Destin. You are right it is quieter in Gulf Shores but you still have those world class beaches. It is growing and the glitz may arrive soon enough at Gulf Shores. My Panama City days I was younger and single and I read it has been overrun by the spring break college crowd.

Re: BG.

John h on 1/29/02 at 17:29 (071838)

If I am reading you correctly BG you cannot make a good orthortic for me by mail. I assume you could make one for me if Dr. Z made the cast in some profession manner.

Re: BG.

BG CPed on 1/29/02 at 18:07 (071840)

Yes I can make a good device via cast/mail. I do make them for a few orthotists. They key is a good cast and proper info sent. I am sure Dr Z is very good at that. I thought you were asking about some folks that send you casting material or blanks to heat up and take a mold of your own feet, THAT is not the best way to go. Let me know if you have any other questions. Dr Z may even have a lab he uses that does softer eva devices. Many labs call them arthritic or reaumatoid devices

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

BG CPed on 1/29/02 at 18:14 (071843)

Julie, If I may try to understand your explaination regarding caps. I am but a lowly shoe cobbler, lacking in both manners and formal lernin. Do you mean about them fancy ascenders and descenders are hard on the eyes cause they look like the picket fence out front, you know everything the same length and all straight up and down?

Re: Thoughts on gas

wendyn on 1/29/02 at 18:45 (071851)

I always tell my husband that the E on my gas tank stands for 'Enough'

Re: john

wendyn on 1/29/02 at 18:49 (071853)

What a great post John! I just really like it....I had a crappy day, but it made me smile!

Re: Paula

Julie on 1/30/02 at 03:36 (071895)

Too late, Paula, after 41 years.

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

Julie on 1/30/02 at 08:17 (071904)

No no, Brian. It's the other way around. The ascenders and descenders assist ease of reading because they give the eye variety, something to hold onto. It's the fact that CAPS ARE ALL THE SAME HEIGHT that makes them difficult and tiring to read.

Re: That's GREAT news! Hope they are perfect for you! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/22/02 at 11:55 (070878)

.

Re: Off I go...

Carole C on 1/22/02 at 17:02 (070901)

Carmen,

This is so exciting! I hope your orthotics work out really well.

As an aside, I'm a northerner who's lived in the south most of her life. I've found that I love it so much here for a huge number of reasons, but I think it has a few (very slight) disadvantages for me. One is that some people in some parts of the south still seem to assume that if a woman is serious, she'll have a man do her talking for her. It was sweet of your husband to help you with the podiatrist's office!

Carole C

Re: A MAN TALK FOR ME????

Carol C on 1/22/02 at 19:55 (070915)

That will happen on that famous day when HE** freezes over!!!!
Maybe sometimes, people wish that a man would speak for me because
When I speak, I have researched my facts, feel confident in what I am
saying, and can not be SHUT UP until I have the results that I want and
feel are fair. Women have to stand up for themselves and what is right.
It can be done. Men have no louder or stronger or better voice than
I do---and I have proven it many times over.
I suggest all women do the same. There may come a day when you don't have
a man in your life to speak for you--and what happens when that day comes?
I am single and have learned to defend myself. Anyone need lessons in
assertiveness, come see me!

Re: A MAN TALK FOR ME????

Carole C on 1/22/02 at 21:09 (070924)

Well, I am single and I never dragged a man along when I lived in California. But I find that I get better results if I do here. YMMV

Carole C

Re: I should have been more specific

Carmen H on 1/23/02 at 07:30 (070953)

Carole~

I hear you loud and clear! ;o)
Believe me when I say the following...'NO MAN HAS EVER SPOKEN FOR ME'
In this case I had called four times and demanded to speak with the office manager the doctor or even the lab several times. I had made an appt. to go to another pod and start all over again. I was going to be daamned if I gave money to them. Now here's the important part....my husband was soo P#@$%@ off at the Pod's office for taking 8 weeks to get my orthotics he wouldn't take no for an answer even when I said 'you calling them if not going to make those things get here any faster ....I have said all I can say to them toby.'
I had to eat my words b/c apparently he held the golden key to influence that day and three working days later they are here.
If you have read my old posts at all since I have been here you can see that I have no problem with assertivenes in any situation as I explained my stories to this board many times after returning from the docs offices once again disappointed.
Maybe that is part of my problem....hmmmm.
but let me tell you this....I have been alone for most of my adult life..making my own decisions...paying for my own things.....etc etc and it was VERY nice to have a man stick up for me. I never thought I would say that but it was. It was if anything a relief to realize it is really nice not to live solo anymore.
:-)
Maybe you and I could teach assertiveness classes???
:o)

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 07:58 (070956)

I will not join your assertiveness class.

My coworker tried to sign me up for anger management yesterday until he found out that it's where they teach you how to express anger.

Apparently I don't need help with that.

I need yoga.

Re: I should have been more specific

Carmen H on 1/23/02 at 11:10 (070978)

ME too!!! Wendy you crack me up!

Re: I should have been more specific

john h on 1/23/02 at 11:43 (070991)

Wendy: may i suggest a Martha Stewart cooking class for you. I would much prefer that over the dozens of corporate PC self improvement type classes I have attended. I an unsure that any of them ever changed me one iota. As for the Yoga a few months ago I went to observe one of the classes at our club and almost signed up. Problem was there were 10 women and one guy. Not sure I could handle that.

Re: Sure you could John eom

Julie on 1/23/02 at 13:50 (071001)

.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Valerie S on 1/23/02 at 17:04 (071020)

Hi.
In my retail experience, I have found that women are much worse customers and much harder to please... they don't just take it... maybe it's a Michigan thing. Although I have to agree with Carmen too, since I did get married a little later (29), and it is nice when I can get my husband to talk to annoying people on the phone because I am still too nice.

But I still have seen more wives fly off the handle for their husbands than vice versa...

And I also wanted to put in a good word for Martha Stewart... hee hee. I used to think she was just an annoying hag, but now I am starting to like her! Maybe I have been a housewife too long now... I'm starting to scare myself. Well, I have to go out and catch some snow for my special spiced tea.

Val.

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 18:04 (071027)

You handle all the women here just fine.

Why would I want to take a Martha Stewart cooking class?

I like to cook - but I am way too messy in the kitchen, she would kick me out.

Or are you making fun of my Tuna casserole?

I make it once a year.

Re: I should have been more specific

wendyn on 1/23/02 at 18:53 (071039)

I'm glad I crack you up Carmen, but I kid you not..just yesterday he pulled out the pamphlet and said he thought he'd found the course for me.

Like I said though - it's more on how to express anger. He was looking more for some anger SUPRESSION I think.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carmen H on 1/24/02 at 07:26 (071087)

Valerie....having been in retail for my first job I am with you on that one! Women are the worst! Not to mention in the many years in restaurant management the womens room was always NASTIER than the men's.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Beverly on 1/24/02 at 20:21 (071178)

Women are very hard on other women. I've had great doctors I could hardly stand to visit because of their tacky receptionist's personality and ditto on nurses with attitudes. I don't know why women are so hard on other women.
I've also experienced this with women doctors.

Beverly

Re: ditto with women principals! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/24/02 at 20:46 (071179)

.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/25/02 at 02:55 (071202)

Do you think these women are busy trying to prove themselves to men?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carmen H on 1/25/02 at 07:37 (071214)

I don't think so...I think they are just bitter about something and haven't moved on from it. could be anything...but I have definitely told a woman or two that I hoped her day got better after she treated me rudely.
One time I faxed a special to this office (it was in the Chamber of commerce book so it was free game!) and she called me and said 'DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH PAPER COST???? YOU TOOK UP 2 PAGES OF PAPER NOT TO MENTION THE INK FROM MY FAX!!!!! TAKE ME OFF YOUR FASXING LIST IMMEDIATELY.'
freak. I mean she lost it. I told her that I apologize for the 'expense' I caused her and hoped her day got MUCH better than it sounded like it was at that moment.
she was mean. If you can't afford two pieces of paper you probably shouldn't be in business.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/25/02 at 08:19 (071215)

Carmen, that's a riot. Seriously - I wonder if our perception of women as being more difficult to deal with isn't skewed by the fact that the kinds of jobs in which this sort of behaviour can be given vent to are generally held by women: secretaries, receptionists, and other 'women's jobs'. If more men were in them, they might be just as frustrated and edgy and irrational and mean. No way of proving it, of course - just a thought.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 09:30 (071220)

My experience with my co-women baseball players is much the same, Beverly. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated because these early years of trying to establish the sport for women dictate that the players themselves work hard as emmissarys on and off the field. Nice theory, don't you think? What we've found instead is that many of the players have come to the baseball (not softball) field with chips on their shoulders after having had to fight their way in to, and through, male sports all their lives. They've come to the women's BB league with very defensive attitudes and have a difficult time accepting the fact that teamwork must be everything!

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/25/02 at 09:55 (071232)

I may start something here BUT. For some reason many women seem to get territorial or catty if you will in many situations not just sports or secretaries. (NOTE I AM SAYING MANY NOT ALL) I have noted in many areas of work, sports from amateur to pro this dynamic. You can have 5 to 10 men in a situation, there will be competition and some dislike but they will generally get the job done. If there are dislikes most men will say 'hey your being an a-$%^^' but do what it takes to get it done. There is ribbing, teasing and mean comments but not the deeper meaner stuff exibited by some women.

If there are 2 to 10 to 100 in a group there seems to be more gossip and back stabbing. I am not sure why that is. I will have men that need an orthotic adjusted or a shoe that needs to repaired or replaced and they are generally less sensitive about it. Many times with women they will make some unreasonable demands or have an attitude early on (pc note I said many times, but not all) wanting to return a shoe that has been worn into the ground, if you have a shoe in 4 colors they want the 5th choice that doesnt exist.

I was talking with an NCAA ref yesterday and he said at high school and college level basketball the girls are much meaner and tenacious than guys.Maybe in sports at higher level the girls have grown up playing with guys so they need to be a little rougher. This is not pick on women just observations. Women are the neatest thing God made besides sports cars, gunpowder, canadian beer and bad feet

Re: speaking of attitutes......

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 10:24 (071238)

Speaking of attitudes.....I was at a car smog station the other day waiting for a smog job to be done on my camper. The tech started the work, etc etc. The camper is a motorhome style on a van chassis so the engine compartment is, more or less, inside the cab. Because I was sitting in the motorhome waiting, I said hello to the tech and noted that they sure were busy - just making conversation. He completely ignored me. Completely. Well, OK.
About an hour later my husband called me on my cell phone. We both were puzzled about the delay with the smog thing so he asked to talk to the tech. The tech refused to talk with him. Later, because I had to know, I asked the tech how much longer it'd be - and I was VERY polite - and he was rude to the point of surprise. A fella standing next to me looked at me and said 'Wow, there was no cause for that behavior'. Last, I was leaning against the open door of my camper chatting with that same fella while we waited, and the tech came up behind me, unbeknownst to me, and jerked the door away from my back causing me to stumble and nearly fall - which I would have done if the guy I was chatting with hadn't caught me. We both went to complain about the tech's attitude - turns out the tech was all PO'd because he'd been called off another job to do this smog job - which evidently didn't sit right with him.
Yep, guys get attitudes too.

Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

Julie on 1/25/02 at 11:08 (071246)

.

Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 12:05 (071261)

Julie, in California car emmissions are a big problem in terms of air quality so our cars must undergo 'smog emmissions' checks before being registered or when sold. The engines are hooked up to some machine thingy which measures various aspects of the car's exhaust, etc. The car must pass the smog tests within certain parameters in order to be registered.

Re: I'll have to admit: it starts early!

Suzanne D on 1/25/02 at 12:08 (071263)

Generally speaking, in terms of misbehaving children at school, boys are easier to deal with than girls! The boys may get louder and rougher, but then they get over it and don't seem to hold grudges. Misbehaving little girls often do the sneaky things and try to get others involved: 'Let's not be friends with....'

It must be 'the nature of the beast'...:-)

Re: I'll have to admit: it starts early!

JudyS on 1/25/02 at 13:22 (071272)

I don't think it's the 'nature of the beast'. I think it's the nature of the beastly cultural models that have come for generations before the current crop of little girls and boys.
If three little boys and three little girls were stranded on a desert island in infancy, how would they grow culturally, behaviorly, etc? Would the girls be catty gossips? Would the boys pick fights? Two things we can be somewhat certain of, most of the boys would be protectors and most of the girls would be nurturers - that seems to be a biological reality. But suppose a boy wanted to care for a young one and a girl wanted to go hunt? Would there be a culture in place that would ridicule that?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

wendyn on 1/25/02 at 13:24 (071273)

Given a choice, I would prefer to work with men than women. Or at least a balance. I've found an even split between number of men and women on a project seems to work well too. It's the offices that are almost all women that I've seen a lot problems in.

I agree with what you said, I prefer much the speak your mind and then get on with it attitude. Not the grudge bearing, back stabbing that some groups get into. I've found that there are a number of people that I like on a personal level - but I think they're useless workwise. There are others that I like to work with, but I certainly wouldn't hang out with on the weekend. It's nice when people realize that the two really can be exclusive. And just because you disagree with someone at work, doesn't mean you dislike them as a person.

Re: good point, Judy! (nm)

Suzanne D on 1/25/02 at 14:08 (071278)

.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carol C on 1/25/02 at 22:13 (071332)

Good thing you are NOT counting on me to buy my ORTHOTICS or SHOES
or anything else from your....you would be waiting a long time.
Sounds like you don't like dealing with women customers. I am sure
there is someone out there who is capable of providing service of
equal quality who would welcome the business or WOMEN and not feel
the need to degrage them to or compare them with---as you put it
'Women are the neatest thing God made besides sports cars, gunpowder, canadian beer and bad feet'
Wonder how successfull a business can be for how long with a
proprietor with that kind of attitude?

Re: Thanks, Judy. eom

Julie on 1/26/02 at 02:52 (071353)

.

Re: Judy, what's a car smog station? eom

Carmen H on 1/26/02 at 10:51 (071385)

We have emission testing in Atlanta too it takes about 30 minutes....

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 14:46 (071535)

Wow that was a little harsh. I WAS JOKING AT THE END.I guess I should not assume that something that silly would be understood by a reasonable person. I would also assume that the other comments made that were of a similar opinion of mine but authored by females were included?
I was not making a blanket indictment on women, I was commenting on certain traits exibited by SOME women. I dont cut corners or treat anybody different as a patient or customer. Sorry you got so riled by it. I hope for the sake of sensitivity and diversity you intended some of your post towards the ladies that also made observations similar to mine.

I am up 20% from last year so I cant be that mean of a guy.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

John h on 1/27/02 at 18:33 (071556)

BG: you definitely need some sensitivity training big guy. If you think you got heat before just wait till you here about your two words 'SOME women'! I have had my sensitivity training and look at me now. As they would say in jolly old England 'Madame I am your humble servant how may I help you?'. I need some further training however as I am still confused. In my era men opened doors for the ladies, pulled out chairs for the ladies ,the ladies never walked next to the curb as the man did, we helped them put on their coats and other such things. Are we supposed to still do those things or is this stuff out? With a little further training BG you should be ok.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 19:07 (071561)

Thank you John, I try to be a good student but for some reason I just dont get it.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

paula on 1/27/02 at 20:14 (071575)

bg ped that was a real nasty riff in my opinion. i have seen your dark humor and liked it here. the emu riff was hilarious i thought. (where is that riff, i've misplaced it). so it is concievable that you are just kidding but i really think you need to think about the way you come accross on this board. i have felt like carol expressed many times here by many things you have said. i know you are here to help and here to socialize and that is fine, but if you are here to generate business as well, and i see nothing wrong with that, then you should know that many of your posts strike me as mean spirited and trying to stir up trouble here. you upset carol and i can see why. how many more of us have you turned off? is this the professional presentation you want to make on a regular basis?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 21:49 (071581)

John, it's simple. If you open the door for us, then it's condescending and you did the wrong thing. If you don't open the door for us, then you are rude, and you did the wrong thing.

Hope I made this clearer for you. Any time you guys want a lesson in propriety, I'm more than happy to help. :)

Carole C

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/27/02 at 22:05 (071582)

Actually I am not here to gain business. I was just making an observation that was based on past experience. It was not my intent to target any individual person, I used no proper names. I find it strange that while others made similar observations they were not called on it.The points I made (which I also inserted disclaimers)were a few simple things followed by an obvious joke.

I find it strange that some folks on here have a way of policing the board for what they perceive to be not nice, or cross some invisible line that they have established to be 'the rules' I have not called anybody names. I did call out a poster that had came from nowhere with his first post and it was filled with phone, price and website. I was lectured on it, and guess what? That valuble new member has not contributed anything since. I would assume he was another gentle soul that my mean spirited post chased away.

Diversity of personalities and ideas is supposed to be a good thing, If I am sometimes sarcastic or crack jokes sorry, that is me. This board would get very mundane if it was all the same stuff all the time. I may find reading a 20 post thread about how bad somebody got screwed on their orthotics to be mean spirited or offensive. I dont take it personal or get on anybody over it.

I have noted several posts on what is the correct delivery as judged by some, I think Sir Elliott was the primary offender. I am fully aware of all of the views on that, so spare the review. All this bad karma directed my way has me feeling a little bad. I think I will brew some herbal tea and listen to my wind chimes.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carol C on 1/27/02 at 22:06 (071583)

I don't think that what I said was nearly as harsh as your having compared
women to the things you did.....my comments by the way, were in response to YOUR post and not to others....strictly in response to you. It is never wise to ASSUME anything....remember the old addage about what happens
when you assume----
Your post sounded very much to me that you were attacking the woman
customer. I am certianly glad that I am not one of yours. Hopefully
that 20% increase in business is in MALE business. With the attitude
you displayed towards women, you do not deserve an increase brought
on by their efforts.
I am sorry if you find my post offensive, but I found you to be most
offensive. AND NO,I DO NOT AS YOU SUGGEST--- 'hope for the sake of sensitivity and diversity you intended some of your post towards the ladies that also made observations similar to mine.'
I don't think that those ladies are out there making their living off selling items to the public and then belittling and degrading those customers on a website.
Thank you.

Re: This is getting old...

wendyn on 1/27/02 at 22:52 (071586)

Carole, you need to take a deep breath.

And one more.

I have re-read BGCped's first post twice.

All through the post he indicates that it is just his opinion, he uses words like 'it seems' a lot, or that things have been his experience. He never gave women a blanket condemnation. He is as entitled to express his opinion like that as anyone here. I read the last line as a sarcastic understatement - nothing moe.

I think people are getting confused.

There is a BIG difference between saying what YOU think, and making statements that OTHERS are WRONG. They are not the same. By him saying what he thinks - he is no more wrong than anyone else for having an opinion.

You can disagree with him all you want - and express all the opinions of your own that you want - but there'a line between that and policing what he says and telling him he's wrong.

BGCped has been a valuable contriubtor to this board for a very long time, and it would be unfortunate to see him chased off over this.

That is not what this board is about - and I too am becoming uncomfortable with the number of times people are being called on their carpets for their opinions.

Don't agree with them - you don't have to. But please allow some freedom for different viewpoints. Even if they are not your own.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

wendyn on 1/27/02 at 22:55 (071587)

See Carole - lots of us use sarcasm as humour - including yourself in this post to John. I'm guessing that you are kidding. Right?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:10 (071591)

Just some friendly, casual joking around. I like John, BCG, Carol C, you, and all the people on the board... I don't feel like any of us are bad people and I owe so much to all of you, every single one of you without exception. I do think that men in this day and age are in kind of a dilemma when it comes to things like opening doors. I honestly do sympathize with them on that. :)

Carole C

Re: This is getting old...

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:16 (071592)

Wendy, it was probably a typo, but that post was written by Carol C, who is different from me, Carole C. So your comments should be addressed to Carol, not Carole. I have a very different outlook on life from Carol although I try to respect everyone's outlook including hers.

Thanks,

Carole C

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

Carole C on 1/27/02 at 23:54 (071593)

Newsflash! Listen up! Carol C and Carole C are two different people. Carol C has been here longer than me, and doesn't post as much. I think she lives in Alabama. She posts on the TTS board and I seldom or never do because I don't have TTS. If I remember right she had surgery and I haven't had any surgery.

Carol C was here when I got here, but I didn't realize there was a Carol C or I would have signed CLC or something like that instead of Carole C. I'm the one who is relatively new here, got PF in September, lives in New Orleans, and got a shower stool and custom orthotics in December and who is doing so well lately and who loves night blooming jasmine lotion.

Carol C is a neat person like all of us but on this particular thread we happen to think differently. I think BCG sounds like a man who appreciates women, and who recognizes that there are differences between women and men. I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, Carol, and that's no big deal. In my opinion I don't think he meant anything bad at all by any of this.

Carole C (NOT Carol C)

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

paula on 1/28/02 at 00:48 (071594)

carol c, you live in alabama? i'm in georgia. we are going to alabama often cause relative just got diagnosed with cancer. i love the countryside there. very pristine and unpopulated comparatively. and the rural deep south is what i imagine america was long ago in many ways. the friendliness, trustingness. asked directions and a stranger lead us in his car to the next town 30 minutes away and turned around. an hour drive for him. or the stranger who when we stopped and asked where a public bathroom was in the middle of nowhere said use mine. it's right up the road, the door is open. i'm from new york city originally and stuff like this blows me away.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 03:18 (071597)

Politeness, gentlemanly behavior, chivalry and so on never go out of style.
Those should not be confused with attitudinal unwillingness to try to respect a gender for it's unique characteristics. Some men have come to think that 'going with the flow' is demonstrative of not being chauvinistic but that's not accurate. Going with the flow as a blanket cure to gender-relation issues is avoidance - avoidance of really taking the time to think about what it takes to respect a person's, or gender's, uniqueness. When a statement like 'Don't even try to understand women' is made, even if it's said in jest, not only does it dehumanize a gender, many women know that it's part of that 'invisible chauvinism' - the one that even the people who are afflicted by it don't know they have. Even statements by we women about how hard it is to get along with other women is insensitive and serves to reinforce men's' stereotyping of us. I tend to want to think that we find more 'ornery' women in public because there are so many more women then men in public arenas as consumers or as support staff.
Even joking statements from we women like 'open the door and you're wrong, don't open the door and you're wrong' can be misleading and leave the men folk still scratching their heads about what women want when we're willing to make the kind of jokes that the poor fellas get criticized for.

So very many men feel that they're not chauvinistic and, in fact, feel that they're working very hard not to be. And I'll bet they ARE working really hard not to be. But there are different kinds of chauvinism and the worst is the one that is not behavioral, but rather attitudinal because it's nearly impossible to recognize from within after generations of conditioning.

Men needn't be anyone's 'humble servants' - respecting a gender is not about 'giving in' to it. the humble servant idea reinforces the point that avoidance is the easiest thing to do for many men - and why not, John h is right, men don't know what to do because there are no easy answers. We ask for 'equality' but can't always tell them how to give it. Why? Because the attitudinal part of it is a wisp of wind - impossible to catch and work with. However, going with the flow as a 'humble servant' is not a part of 'sensitivity training'. Sensitivity is about respect, not patronization. I don't think guys have to be puzzled about understanding women. Understand and respect them as individuals first - then respect, don't patronize, the unique qualities that make them part of their gender. It is still an 'era' for politeness and people should not give up time-proven standards of politeness or those standards will become extinct in this overwhelmingly PC world.
Brian you are right - your statement was really no more insensitive than those that came before from both genders in the thread. We women get a little reactive when we come in second behind cars and bad feet...and are perhaps in that stage of cultural evolution where even jokes from such good guys as yourself feel demeaning.
It's interesting that women didn't start filling this thread with 'Men are......(fill in the blank)' making blanket statements about things wrong with the male gender.
In conclusion (sorry, it's a long-winded moment) I egotistically put forth the theory that these kinds of issues are really not because of gender - they're because of a culture that began way way long ago and which is going through painful changes - the pain being from not knowing what to do, what to think, what's right, what's wrong. And look at the signals the fellas get from women occasionally - this thread being an example. We've basically told our male PF pals that it's OK to generalize negatively about women by doing so ourselves.
Being polite is right no matter what. If a woman doesn't like having a door open for her she can be nice about it or not. The behavior of the door opener and that of the 'openee' only serves to expose their individual characters, whatever they may be, and it needn't have anything to do with gender.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

Julie on 1/28/02 at 04:35 (071598)

Whew! Thanks for clarifying this, Carole. For a while there I couldn't figure out what was going on, and thought I was seeing double. But I realized that there are actually two of you when I read the post-before-the-clarifying-one that said 'I like Carol C'. I'm not sure Wendy realized it before her post, but I'm sure she does now.

Thanks again.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 05:32 (071599)

I thought I'd start by getting rid of that inflammatory subject line.

Judy, that was a great, thought-provoking post. It really is not easy to make sense of these issues, but I agree with you that they're essentially issues of culture, but of gender. Kindness and basic humanity, and the way they're expressed or not expressed by individuals, have got overlaid by the myriad misconceptions and arguments about gender, but I think you've gone to the heart of it in your final paragraph.

'The behaviour of the opener and the openee serves to expose their individual characters' is what I was thinking too. A woman's surly, rejecting refusal to have a door opened is bound to confuse and hurt a man who meant to be kind (or even simply polite: they're not necessarily the same thing). But it has little or nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with the way some people treat other people, regardless of gender.

Perhaps age has something to do with it too. For example, I'm an independent person with feminist convictions on the political/economic/educational level (equal pay for equal work, equality of opportunity, sensible child care provision for working women, healthy representation in Parliament, etc) and plenty of sister loyalty. I always have been, but I'm also in my 60s and I like having doors opened for me. I like it that my husband automatically walks on the curb side, and that he helps me into my jacket. He does these things without having to think about them because that's how he was brought up - but he also does them kindly, and I accept and appreciate them in that spirit.

Perhaps a younger women feels differently, perhaps her particular conditioning has made it difficult for her to walk happily through the door held open. Perhaps she can't free herself of the trap of thinking that any man who opens a door for her is patronizing her. Whatever - she has the choice as to how she behaves in that situation: with grace and humanity, or otherwise.

A man can't be blamed for being confused by a woman's rejection of kindness or politeness. It's sad when that happens. But it's equally sad if he uses the experience to generalize about women's attitudes, instead of taking it as an example of inconsiderate human behaviour.

No conclusions, just a few thoughts.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 05:34 (071600)

Line 3: that should have been 'these are issues of culture, NOT of gender'. Bad proofreading.

Re: Oooops

wendyn on 1/28/02 at 08:10 (071604)

Same opinion from me..regardless of the poster - but you're right!!!!

I did have the two confused.

I was having trouble sorting out what I percieved to be some huge shift in personality.

I've been confused with the two before but never quite like this.

Re: BG.

john h on 1/28/02 at 10:19 (071622)

BG: speaking of more business do you cast a foot with a person layin on thier back,stomack, sitting, or standing? Can a proper cast be made through the mail? What are your thoughts on the soft custom made orthotics?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

john h on 1/28/02 at 10:47 (071625)

In my real life world when I walk out the door and interact with people I do no have a thought about 'Men' or 'Women'. I just am what I am and act the way I learned as a child which has been modified by my life's circumstances and expriences along the way. In few things do I classify women or men as a group except for the obvious such as having babies or playing pro football. I sure am glad there are women and men. We are all uniquely different regarless of gender. I hope I do not offend anyone along the way but as Ricky Nelson sang in Garden Party 'you cannot please evryone', I can have a woman as a friend and share with her as well as I can any man. We have both women and men out there who could do better but in the real world I do not think it is going to happen with sensitivity trainig. I learned early to open doors for the ladies,the old, and the infirm. I will always do this. As a matter of fact I open door for anyone regardless of who or what they are. It is just called courtesy in my world. It is a lot easier being nice than being otherwise. I of course that being nice is subjective but that is why we cannot please everyone.

Re: it's my fault :(

Carole C on 1/28/02 at 11:38 (071631)

I'm sorry, y'all! It's all my fault. I should have changed my handle when I first noticed Carol C's posts, but that was a couple of weeks after I started posting. Then, I thought 'oh well, it's spelled differently' but I guess it's still too confusing.

I've never met another Carol(e) C., but I should have thought about the fact that there might be another one. I'm sorry! Do you think maybe I should change to another handle? I could sign my posts CLC or something like that. Sometimes I use CLCinNOLA (my initials, in New Orleans LA). Would it be easier if I sign that way?

Carole C

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 12:13 (071633)

Julie, in my 'long-winded' post I'd originally included a paragraph about the beauty and rewards of age in that it opens one's eyes to the rewarding acceptance of individual character as well as that of a body of folks in, say, a gender.
One of the most rewarding things I've learned with age is that maleness in men is very, very nice and to be admired. There was a time when I thought men had machismo just for the sake of some silly and shallow male ego. Not so. I was wrong. Machismo is indeed a uniquely male thing and a pleasure to realize, observe, and accept without question as long as it doesn't interfere with basic respect.
While I've worked pretty hard to make my way, unthreateningly, in typically male activities (I LOVE knocking down walls and playing ball) I've never been willing to give up my 'femaleness' to do so. And I've always been thrilled with being treated like a lady. I have a somewhat unique recreational life in that I spend lots of time in a dugout with men. We've been playing ball together for years and, over that time, the men have become comfortable with the knowlege that they don't have to worry about acute gentlemanliness in the dugout and they, and I, are more than willing to just be plain-old good teammates.
Granted there are rare moments when a newcomer or two may get raunchy about a female player but, frankly, they don't last long. Nobody, men and women alike, really likes that stuff.
There was never a time in my life that I disliked gentlemanly behavior. For women to tell men that being a gentleman is demeaning is ludicrous. Like you, I sincerely appreciate, and sometimes marvel at, the willingness of men to be gentlemen. After 25 years, I am still amazed, every time, when my husband nudges me to the inner edge of the sidewalk when we're out walking or jogging.
Perhaps this is a mixed message on my part?

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:30 (071680)

John, I'm glad too that there are women and men. And you can open doors for me all you like. And I will appreciate it. And you.

Re: Women are women and men are men. Both are human beings

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:32 (071681)

Sounds all of a piece, Judy, not the least bit mixed. Very consistent and human.

Re: it's my fault :(

Julie on 1/28/02 at 17:36 (071682)

Nothing to apologize for, Carole. But don't change to CLC - it's too impersonal Stick with Carole, but perhaps amend the 'C' by adding the second letter of your surname. Or Carole NOLA would be nice. When we had two Barbaras, one was TexBarb, the other BarbNY.

What happened to Barb NY?

And TexBarb, where are you?

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

BrianG on 1/28/02 at 18:01 (071688)

Hi Carole,

Just to make it a little more confusing, I'm BCG and haven't contributed to this thread, until now. BG Cped is a profssional, most likely works 5 days a week, and contributed here yesterday. BCG is a an old broken down hippy who can't work due to PF. But I did have night blooming jasmine growing outside my window in Hawaii. BG Cped most likely has jasmine oils and incense, inside his windows (just guessing :*)

I hope everyone has paid attention, testing will be in the near future, hahahaaaa

BCG

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

JudyS on 1/28/02 at 18:08 (071689)

That one was my mistake, Brian, my apologies. Broken down old hippies are some of the coolest characters our world has to offer so three cheers for you!

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 18:23 (071693)

like bcg, i'm a broken down old hippie, and i wish i felt cool!
i keep forgetting the (relatively) 'broken down' part and try to work too fast and too long. of course, right now part of this is just plain excitement about working at all.
but tonight when i came dragging into the house phil said 'you worked too much, i can tell,' and 'remember you're not 28 anymore.' the thing is, until pf hit, i could live and work as if i'm still 28 and i got away with it! after the last 2+ years, i don't get away with it.
so i'm humbly trying to adjust my expectations.
shoot.
nancy

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

paula on 1/28/02 at 18:24 (071695)

yes we are cool. no doubt about it.

Re: it's my fault :(

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 18:24 (071696)

I think you and I had the same thoughts, Julie, GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike). I tried 'Carole C in NOLA' a while ago, and that looks all right.

Carole C

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

paula on 1/28/02 at 18:25 (071697)

hippies work hard?

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*)

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 18:29 (071700)

Oh wow! I did the same thing as Wendy. I thought you were both one person, a C.Ped. who used to live on the Kona coast and thumb rides.

Well, I like both of you. So there! (grin)

Carole C

Re: john

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 18:37 (071701)

i have to say, at first, over two years ago, i wasn't sure what to make of you, john -- how to know when you were serious and when not. once i figured it out, i realized you're one of the most delightful people i know.

in no way do you ever offend me, personally, with lighthearted men/women jokes. i see you as an open, humorous person who sees each individual afresh and as a real human being. and i know you care -- deeply -- about people as people (and animals as animals!). you're unique, and i couldn't place you in any category and wouldn't want to try.

you can open the door for me anytime, especially with these stupid frozen shoulders! -- but with or without. and i'd do the same for you, and i know there wouldn't be a problem with any of it.

i have my own feminist beliefs, and a lot of other beliefs as well, but i always see the individual first and try to leave plenty of room for variations on a theme. for me: individuals first, sociological categories much later.

in the book 'pioneer women,' one 19th-century woman wrote of how people, men and women alike, often confided in and felt safe with her mother because her mother 'always made allowances for human frailties.' we all have them, and i think i would've loved that woman's mother.
nancy

Re: BG.

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 19:34 (071710)

I do mostly non wt bearing on a foot scanner. It takes a digital cast that is then sent to milling machine in back of lab for fabrication. Depending on the foot type self casting is somewhat iffy. Generally a hypermobile foot that pronates will make a distorted impression in many self casting systems. Also the fabricator has not seen you walk, stand etc. so they have to extrapolate from an impression only.
The devices I make are about 65 durometer eva, about the same as the sole on a firm athletic shoe. Let me know if you have any other questions

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 20:22 (071715)

Thank you for clearing up some things about your posts. I am sorry that I assumed you were spreading the blame to ALL folks that made comments, when in fact it was only directed at mine. I found it weird that you singled me out. The fact that I own a foot related business means I cant have opinions, perhaps I should have a clip on tie and be a thoughtless toadie like some fast food counter person?
I was simply stating from my experience as was Wendy and a few other folks did. I guess if I worked at a tire store or was a female your response would be different?
As for your opinion that I was 'attacking' women customers or 'degrading' them, that is a big stretch. Using that logic would make giving a women the finger for cutting you off would amount to assault with intent? Simply making an honest observation on actual events that did occur with some frequency is considered REALITY i.e. it really does and did happen. Just to show you I am an equal opportunity observer, MEN can also be difficult. I am sure most on here would agree that men dont follow break in, tell them to wear them 1 hour first day and they will wear them 8 hours because they didnt think it applied to them.
Male runners are probably the worst of all for this. They also will try to 'fix' an orthotic by grinding, gluing or working on their orthotics at home, women never do this.
As for my business, most of my base is women, probably 65%. ALL of my business is referal from Dr. or word of mouth. I can assure you if I didnt know what I was doing or was not nice I would be cut off in a second. The last thing a Dr. wants is complaints.
I am glad you expressed your bias by pointing out that your nasty comments were only directed at me, inspite of the fact similar observations were made by women. I would conclude from that you dont practice equality, and that is ok because thats whats great about this country.
As for your ideas on my treatment of women, you are way off. Women are great. I hold doors everywhere even though 1/2 the time you dont even get a thank you. I have used a swear word 2 times in front of my Mother, one shi& and one ass&&le both directed at somebody else.
Contrary to the belief of some, men and women are not the same in many respects. They compliment each other but are different.
I appreciate the support and imput on this thread. There are some very interesting and intelligent women on here. And special tip to my Canadian friend Wendy. You are a good mix of logic, reason and rational thought, even though you have some serious rotation of your lower extremities

'BG CPed, PROPHET OR MADMAN?'

Re: Attention! - - BCG is not BG Cped :*) -- hippies working hard

nancy s. on 1/28/02 at 20:23 (071716)

paula, heh heh. i do work hard, especially when it feels like my own work. then i enjoy myself hard too. i can enjoy seemingly minor things. sometimes seemingly minor things make me ecstatic. (i haven't smoked pot in decades, by the way.)

Re: FROM CAROL C TO BG CPED

CAROL C (From Alabama) on 1/28/02 at 21:47 (071725)

The fact that I own a foot related business means I cant have opinions, perhaps I should have a clip on tie and be a thoughtless toadie like some fast food counter person?

GEE--YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YOU??? A LOT OF FAST FOOD PEOPLE SPEND A LOT OF TIME OF THEIR FEET AND COULD BE POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS...AND THERE YOU
GO SLAMMING THEM---YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

CAROL C (From Alabama) on 1/28/02 at 21:52 (071727)

Yes Paula..I am from Alabama--Huntsville, Alabama--maybe my southern heritage has something to do with my prefering to be treated as a LADY
and not compared to gunpowder and bad feet. LOL....
What part of Alabama are you visiting these days? Alabama is a friendly
place---and contrary to what some may think, I am really a very friendly
person and have my share of southern hospitality to share. I am glad to hear that your experiences in Alabama have been pleasant so far. If there is anything I can do to help let me know.

Re: Sorry, BG CPed !

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 22:16 (071729)

I meant to say,

'I think BG CPed (not BCG) sounds like a man who appreciates women, and who recognizes that there are differences between women and men. I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, Carol, and that's no big deal. In my opinion I don't think he meant anything bad at all by any of this. '

Thanks

Carole C

Re: open mouth, insert foot

Carole C in NOLA on 1/28/02 at 22:18 (071730)

Not to say that BCG doesn't think these things too, but I have no idea. The more I say, the worse this gets. LOL

Carole C

Re: Thoughts on men

wendyn on 1/28/02 at 22:30 (071733)

Since you brought it up BGcped.

I live with 4 men (one husband and 3 boys). Many of my closest friends are men, so I figure that I know more about them than I ever wanted to.

I laughed at your men not following instructions because it doesn't apply to them. I told my husband Sunday that apparently the drivers rule book has a disclaimer that says it applies to all drivers EXCEPT Mike.

And just to even the playing field a bit, although I prefer to work with more men based on the attitude thing....my experience has also been that it's usually women who jump into new projects and responsibilities with enthusiasm and a goal in mind. They seem to be better at getting things done (in my humble experience) with less direction needed- and the dedication really seems to show through. Men seem to be much more willing to let someone else worry about things.

Again, just a generalization - but if you work with enough people you do start to see broad gender differences and similarities.

As for the POO list I keep - an unscientific guess would be that the individuals who find themselves there are roughly 98.9 % men.

Re: open mouth, insert foot

BG CPed on 1/28/02 at 23:11 (071740)

Dont worry C, your cool. You are right I do. I didnt think this was getting bad, I thought it was rather funny AND educational. I just wish some people would be more sensitive and stop using all CAPS. I wear glasses and it is hard to read for us people that are visually challenged. Also it is shouting and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Re: If you hold a door open for me...

Carole C in NOLA on 1/29/02 at 06:21 (071754)

If you hold a door open for me, I promise I'll thank you! LOL

My mother taught me to always thank anyone who opens the door for me. She also taught me that a man opening a door for a woman doesn't mean he thinks she can't do it; it means he respects the fact that she's a woman and that women and men are different.

Vive la difference!

Carole C

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

Julie on 1/29/02 at 08:04 (071755)

Brian, I'm with you on caps. Caps are certainly difficult to read, for everyone, not only us wearers of. A typographer would explain (I'm not, but I know something about it, having spent a lifetime in publishing) that it's because capital letters don't have ascenders (the bits that stick out above the line of the letter's main body, as in 'b' and 'd') or descenders, the bits that stick out below the line (as in 'p' and 'y'), so that everything written in all caps looks the same, which is very quickly tiring for the eye.

What I think - but I don't suppose it will change anyone's ways, and why should it? - is that emphasis ought to come from the words themselves, and how they are put together. Better to understate than to overstate. Over-emphasising, as with caps, italics, double exclamation marks, etc, always defeats its purpose.

Re: Scott, my posts are doubling again. EOM

Julie on 1/29/02 at 08:06 (071757)

.

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

paula on 1/29/02 at 08:07 (071758)

carol c i think you are a fine person and i agree with what you have said here as well. i lived in hunsville. nice place. beautiful park. the dad is just outside of birmingham. i live in atlanta. i also did not like to see all the folks that struggle to make a living and stand all day in the fast food business alluded to as people without intelligence. i eat at the local waffle house a couple of times a week. the waitresses there are kind, good people just trying to get by on very little pay for very hard work. most of them have foot and leg pain and can't really afford much help like some of us here. i like and respect all of them. they do not have education nor do they have job skills but they have their opinions and ideas just like the rest of us. and they call me 'honey' so of course i go back. in fact, since i am in a wheelchair i find that the peeple at the lowest end of the pay scale are the first to jump out of their seats and open doors for me or ask me if i need help and generally talk to me like i am a human. when i go to doctors at the rich part of town olmost no one does that for me. as i struggle over a high threshold they mostly look away like i am a bad smell. it makes me feel lousy. i wish my doctor's office was in the waffle house.

Re: Scott, my posts are doubling again. EOM

paula on 1/29/02 at 09:15 (071766)

is this julie from england? hi. in my new york italion and jewish family it was always better to overstate then to understate. when i met my partner from alabama we had a hard time for a while. all his humor and general statements were understated all mine overstated. like him pointing out a poisonous snake and saying getting bitten would ruin my whole afternoon. or my saying 'Ohmygod' whenever a nail broke. we used to joke that if the house was on fire, the dog poisoned and a gun pointed at our heads he'd say very slowly and calmly 'paula i think we might have a little problem' and for years he'd think disaster hit cause i was overstating about very little.

Re: Paula

Julie on 1/29/02 at 10:46 (071787)

Hi Paula

I'm from The Bronx. But I've lived in England since 1961 and have some English ways may have rubbed off.

Have you and your guy worked out an over/under-state modus vivendi yet?

Re: Paula

paula on 1/29/02 at 11:54 (071790)

i think we have worked it out. he has dampened my spirit and i have wrecked his nerves:) . hey, don't let the english turn you. three times a day wave your arms around wildly and say with a bronx accent 'expletive deletive' at the slightest thing. you'll be back to normal in no time.

Re: john

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:28 (071805)

Nancy S. what a sweet thoughtful message. You just made my day. I think we as humans rarely change from what we are in one big swoop but over time we evolve and grow with changing morals and what is acceptable and unacceptable. Some people do not change and are stuck back in the gerneration they grew up in. So many things that were acceptable and considered the norm when I was growning up are totally unacceptable today.Many people my age refuse to learn about computers and all the wonderful information that is available and the wonderful people you can meet. When I was a child I do not remember one of my friends mom's who worked. Women were not pilots for American Air Lines and were not flying fighters off the aircraft carrier Enterprise. There was no such thing as a stay at home dad or male nurses or male flight attendants. From my perspective most of the changes that have occured in my life time are very much for the good. Some are not. I hope I have grown with the times and look forward to learning something new each day. It is great to hear the perspectives of all the people on this board. People from all walks of life and from all over the world. How can you not learn something here beyond PF which may in fact alter your views about life in general. It is great being a part of this board. I would never have met Julie in London, Judy in San Diego, Itai in Israel. Nancy N and S, Neece, Barb, Scott, GlennX, BG, Steve, Yoko, Laurie, Carmen, Dr Z and Dr Ed and on and on and on. This is awsome and you all are awsome.

Re: Women are worse to deal with than men...

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:33 (071807)

BG buddy I know you will find your way out of the jungle. You took the path less traveled. I still want your input about casting the feet. In what position? Can you do a good foot impression by mail?

Re: Attention! - - Carole C is not Carol C !!!

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:39 (071808)

The Crimson Tide! The Arkansas Razorbacks will be rolling into your fair state for a big basketball game on Wednesday night Carol. I think you have a nationally ranked team. When I was going through flight training my very first night solo flight was to Montgomery. All you guys seemed to hang out down at Panama City during the summer. I am sure Scott still hangs out down there looking for girls in his spare time.

Re: Thoughts on men

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:41 (071809)

One thing for sure Wendy I never never stop and ask for directions until I am almost out of gas and one time I did run out of gas and my wife has never to this day let me forget it.

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

john h on 1/29/02 at 13:46 (071811)

when you guys start talking about grammar and spelling you enter a world and I and Dr Z no nothing about. I can give you Ohm's law or the algebraic formula but in the world of grammar and english I am a total failure. I must have been pulling Peggy Savage's pigtails when they were teaching these subjects.

Re: Thoughts on men

nancy s. on 1/29/02 at 14:26 (071816)

most guys can't stand to admit that they're running out of gas. there may be something a little freudian here, i don't know.

i first noticed this very early in life. i still notice it.
nancy

Re: Panama City???

Carol C on 1/29/02 at 15:26 (071821)

That is for the younger of the crowd...now that I am older, I prefer
the nicer, quiter---GULF SHORES.........ahhhhhhhhh---take me away!

Re: Panama City???

john h on 1/29/02 at 15:40 (071826)

Carol C. and my hangout is Destin. I do travel through Gulf Shores on occasion on my way to Destin. You are right it is quieter in Gulf Shores but you still have those world class beaches. It is growing and the glitz may arrive soon enough at Gulf Shores. My Panama City days I was younger and single and I read it has been overrun by the spring break college crowd.

Re: BG.

John h on 1/29/02 at 17:29 (071838)

If I am reading you correctly BG you cannot make a good orthortic for me by mail. I assume you could make one for me if Dr. Z made the cast in some profession manner.

Re: BG.

BG CPed on 1/29/02 at 18:07 (071840)

Yes I can make a good device via cast/mail. I do make them for a few orthotists. They key is a good cast and proper info sent. I am sure Dr Z is very good at that. I thought you were asking about some folks that send you casting material or blanks to heat up and take a mold of your own feet, THAT is not the best way to go. Let me know if you have any other questions. Dr Z may even have a lab he uses that does softer eva devices. Many labs call them arthritic or reaumatoid devices

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

BG CPed on 1/29/02 at 18:14 (071843)

Julie, If I may try to understand your explaination regarding caps. I am but a lowly shoe cobbler, lacking in both manners and formal lernin. Do you mean about them fancy ascenders and descenders are hard on the eyes cause they look like the picket fence out front, you know everything the same length and all straight up and down?

Re: Thoughts on gas

wendyn on 1/29/02 at 18:45 (071851)

I always tell my husband that the E on my gas tank stands for 'Enough'

Re: john

wendyn on 1/29/02 at 18:49 (071853)

What a great post John! I just really like it....I had a crappy day, but it made me smile!

Re: Paula

Julie on 1/30/02 at 03:36 (071895)

Too late, Paula, after 41 years.

Re: CAPITALS - a typographical note

Julie on 1/30/02 at 08:17 (071904)

No no, Brian. It's the other way around. The ascenders and descenders assist ease of reading because they give the eye variety, something to hold onto. It's the fact that CAPS ARE ALL THE SAME HEIGHT that makes them difficult and tiring to read.