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My goodness....what's going on here??

Posted by Carmen H on 2/17/02 at 17:13 (074029)

Wow. can we all just take a deeeeppppp relaxxxxiiinnnnggg breath and forget about all this 'stuff' mucking up our heads???
I'm sorry but those that know me know I am a very sensitive person to other people's pain and circumstances but I really think there comes a time when we.....(meaning anyone that needs healing thoughts, has pain in their life daily,) just need to say 'Who the H&%$ cares what people say and think about me??? Aren't 'I' really the one 'I' should be concerned about right now???????' The answer to that is a loud and resounding YES!

Seriously...Tammie you are a great person with a heart of gold everyone here knows that....remember that who you are is perfect just the way you are and it doesn't matter a lick what Elliott thinks or how he feels. Don't stop coming here because of anyone elses reasons but your own. What he says does NOT make you who you are. I say this in the kindest way possible....stop giving him control to run your emotions to the ground. You're being unfair to yourself.
And Elliot is perfect just the way he is too the only REAL difference is he KNOWS that and doesn't truly care what others think because his life is tough right now. Plain and simple. TOUGH. I hear the bad days in his posts and understand them totally. He has his own best interest at heart...where a lot of us lose focus on that.
Maybe he could keep his lips zipped a little more often to avoid hurting the more sensitive ones here (sorry Elliott speaking from both sides of the fence here)....b/c let's face it...when we're in pain or confused and hurt....our senses are heightened. No doubt. But I just can't see getting upset over what he says....what is the point? WHY?
We all have to remember who should be number one on our minds and in our thoughts and that is ourselves when it comes to getting better. If you let someone step in and throw you off your healing course it's no one's fault but our own.
Does this make sense? I am just amazed at so much emotion when this is the most social, funny, acceptable, non judgemental, informative board out there. I am just grateful to have found it. Period. I can't imagine thinking anything else about it.
So that's my thoughts...let's get back to the fun and also the informative manner we are all familar with and forget about all the disagreement.
I stand by my Motto
'Take what you want and leave the rest'
and add
If you don't like what you're reading...stop reading it.'
;-)
That includes my post. :-) ha ha

Re: Carmen

wendyn on 2/17/02 at 17:46 (074040)

I liked your post.

Re: Carmen - sorry, but no, this doesn't make sense

Julie on 2/18/02 at 05:47 (074102)

There is a good deal of truth in what you say, but it doesn't apply to everyone. You know that I respect you, and that I admire the way you've turned your own pain around and channelled it to help people, but no, I don't think you're making sense this time.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could thumb their noses at those who direct intentionally wounding remarks at them, and say 'the hell with you', but not everyone can do that. And not everyone is able to consider him or herself 'number one'. And not everyone is able to 'take what they want and leave the rest'. And not everyone can put the lid on a hurtful barb, stop reading, and not feel it. Yes, some of us, perhaps most of us, can do this - but not everyone can. The ones who can't are the people who concern me when I see bullying going on.

People in pain, as you rightly say, have heightened sensitivity. I think most people here are quite aware of that, and take the trouble to modulate what they say with it in mind. But there is one person who doesn't, and in answer to your question, I'll tell you what I think is going on here.

We all know and understand that Elliott is in pain. But being in pain is no excuse for inflicting pain on other people, which he has regularly done on and off since he arrived, and has been doing to Tammie for the last two days. However exasperated he was, he owed her an apology for slamming her in his long post about her emotionalism and confused reluctance to follow his advice. Instead, when SHE apologized to HIM (goodness knows for what, but that's Tammie) he slapped her down again.

His being in pain is no excuse, either, for his sarcastic sneers and jibes at people here, including, perhaps especially, me, whose ways of expressing themselves he doesn't approve of. 'Huggy', 'humourless','kind, sensitive heroines', 'way too much emotional support' - I won't go on. These things are hurtful to individuals, and more, they are damaging to the board.

It is no excuse either for his current attempt to manipulate and control the board (which has, fortunately, got the response it deserved). NO-ONE has the right to criticize the way people offer whatever it is they have to offer - whether it's information, or support, or hugs - or to try to change it, or to scoff at people for expressing themselves the way they do, and for being what they are. It's unkind. I am tired of it, and have tried to ignore it for some time, but now it seems time to call it.

I truly believe that there is good/God in everyone. But there is also such a thing as destructive behaviour, and when it is doing real harm in an essentially fragile community, I think it's necessary to recognize it for what it is.

I might and perhaps should have said all this to him, but it was your post that kick-started me into saying it, so I'll leave it as it is.

Re: hmmmm

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 07:51 (074108)

I certainly would never say that this applies to everyone....I don't think there's ever a topic that can? We are all different...
But of course I am not taking this as a slam to me...it's how you feel and I understand that totally and respect your opinion to no end. I guess what I was in long hand trying to say was that being a person who used to take things personally....I had to learn to stop NO matter what because it was damaging my self esteem, my life and my job. This was years ago but I won't forget what a hard lesson to learn that was. And it was face to face not online so that made it even worse...(don't ever let anyone tell you managing a high volume restaurant with 70 employees is ever easy!! ;-)
But the people who taught me to be who I am with no regard to the selfish and crude people around me will forevermore be engraved in my mind as a wonderful lesson that brought me to the strong place I am now. It was tough and I was defiant to the teachers....'But they're WRONG Corey!!! But that's not fair!!! I work 70 hours a week and he comes in here and knocks me to the ground as a person...what's right about that????' and on and on....not to mention I had to keep them as employees. Long story and a tough one but I am grateful I learned to stick up for myself and ignore 'ignorance' .

You're correct not everyone can do that...I guess it just bothers me to see others giving other people so much control over how they feel inside.
Does THAT part make sense?
I didn't read the posts to Tammie from Elliott....and sometimes he can be extremely harsh lord knows...
But just like some people don't know how to NOT take things Personally and move forward maybe he is one who doesn't know how to NOT be that way and I am once read something that said to show mercy to those (silently if you have to)who are cruel to you...that is the only way to live at peace with yourself? It's the cruel person who suffers most. Maybe that's the part I left out.

Anyway....
I am sure the support Tammie gets here and the love we all feel for her has to make her feel better......in some way or the other aren't we outweighing all the damage Elliott may be doing to her??? Surely we are???
It just seems like so much unnecessary wasted time and energy that could be directed other places.
Maybe Tammie should ask Scott to review the conversation and see if he could limit Elliott to posting on the treatments and doctors and TTS boards??
I don't know the answer all I know is I hate that Tammie feels this badly over what one person is doing to her.
She deserves better....

Re: p.s. Excuse all the spelling errors...I never use spell check. (NM)

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 07:53 (074109)

.

Re: hmmmm

Julie on 2/18/02 at 08:04 (074113)

Carmen, just a few quick comments, because I'm on my way out to my class.

I certainly agree with you about Tammie, and I do hope that the damage done has been outweighed. Knowing her, I'm sure it has. But that doesn't excuse the damage so wilfully done.

I think people CAN help the way they are, and change - if they want to.

I don't think it's fair to blame people who haven't yet reached the wisdom that you have reached - and it is wisdom. If they haven't the self-esteem to protect themselves, blaming them for taking things to heart doesn't help them to develop it.

I think you CAN show mercy to those who are cruel to you, and that this can - sometimes - be a good and useful quality. But you don't have to stand by and watch them being cruel to others. I said what I said because I was finally sick of watching and trying to make allowances.

I don't think Scott needs to be brought in. I think it will resolve itself.

All the best to you, Carmen.

Julie

Re: you're absolutely right

elliott on 2/18/02 at 08:04 (074114)

Apologies to everyone. Goodbye.

---

Re: hmmmm

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:14 (074116)

I appreciate your reponse...I guess I didn't see myself as 'blaming her' for taking things to heart. I seriously would never have even thought that it seemed like blame. It helps to have someone else's eyes....

Re: you're absolutely right

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:14 (074117)

Let me know how you are Elliott...and if you ever decide to go to he chiro. haha
(email removed)

Re: Carmen

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:44 (074120)

Thanks Wendy...It wasn't a slam to ANYone and their coping skills just trying to bring a little awareness to the board that we can't take everything so personally....
Even I was once told 'Don't take things so personally...because 99.9% of the time it's not personal'
even when it's directed at us....most people are just having their own hard time and unfortunately some people take the brunt of it.
:-(

Also heard something once....'It's not WHAT happens to you that matters. It's what you DO with what happens to you that is important.'

Re: No Please do not leave!

Tammie on 2/18/02 at 09:37 (074127)

Please do not leave you are valuable to this board and to the dr.s who give there time. You really do help people. Leave my feelings out Please! I respect you for your medical knowledge! The other does not outweigh the knowledge!

Re: Wow, Elliott!

JudyS on 2/18/02 at 15:30 (074197)

Elliott, I've got to hand it to you. I haven't had a chance to look at these message boards in several days so I sort of got a bird's eye view of this thread from inception to now and it sure looks like you've done a truly effective manipulation job. From the bird's eye view, it looks well-planned and well executed.

First, you were absent for awhile. So some kind hearts started asking 'Where's Elliott?'. Perfect groundwork.

Then, in response, you came on and criticised how we use these boards. Funny, they were working just fine for us. How amazing that you got tons of reaction to that post. Just as you'd planned?

Then, you bullied Tammy. Hmmmm.....more reaction. From readers who asked you to leave her alone to Tammy herself who took on responsibility for your behavior and for the negative stuff in the thread. That's so remarkable given that she had zero responsibility for it at all. Well done, Elliott - nothing like choosing vulnerable targets.

Then, when some of those kind hearts gave you a bit of your own ascerbic medicine, you said adios. Classic.

Last, you've got Tammy asking you to stay. Don't go. This is one of the better circles of manipulation/reaction I've ever seen. Wow, Elliott.

If folks like you were on this board when I was in the height of PF angst and came here, I wouldn't have stayed. I needed help, I needed support, I needed understanding and I got it. I still get it. Your kind of 'in your face' advice doesn't work because you are just too insensitive about it. Just because someone may or may not bow to your advice, that doesn't give you the right to bully them. It's not your job to save anyone from themselves. And perhaps you need to understand this; when you say something like 'Obese, African American.....' - it's questionable because NO ONE READING IT KNOWS WHAT IS IN YOUR THOUGHTS THAT PROMPTED THE REMARK! Get it? You've got your own special, Elliott language and we don't know how to interpret it. In fact, I'd already started to go by Carmen's theory where you're concerned and I'd come to the point of not even reading your posts. They seemed designed to raise someone's ire. They seemed manipulative in spite of your wealth of knowledge.
So, heck, if you can't be nice, (that's what works HERE) then go ahead, take it to one of those other boards that apparently are better than this one because people there get to post any old mean thing they want. WHATEVER!

Re: To Judy Wow, Elliott!

Pauline on 2/18/02 at 16:00 (074201)

Judy,
Good observations. People forget we've had lots of people coming and going, threatening their 'goodbyes' doctors included, but if you look back, truly look back they either had no real intention of leaving or missed all the fussing and soon return. Sometimes for what ever reason, people need to feel valued. The begging fulfills this need reassuring their self worth.

My approach though primitive is to allow them their 'goodbye' response,
and wait to see what happens. The choice to continue posting is really theirs you know, why not allow them to have it.

Re: hmmmm

Julie on 2/18/02 at 16:45 (074219)

Hi again Carmen: I'm home. 'Blame' might have been the wrong word - I really was in a hurry to catch my train. I was responding to your saying that if you let someone upset you, 'it's no-one's fault but your own', and I was afraid that might feed into Tammie's tendency to blame herself for everything.

I didn't for a second think you were slamming anyone - I know you couldn't and wouldn't - and I certainly wasn't slamming you.

Re: Carmen

wendyn on 2/17/02 at 17:46 (074040)

I liked your post.

Re: Carmen - sorry, but no, this doesn't make sense

Julie on 2/18/02 at 05:47 (074102)

There is a good deal of truth in what you say, but it doesn't apply to everyone. You know that I respect you, and that I admire the way you've turned your own pain around and channelled it to help people, but no, I don't think you're making sense this time.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could thumb their noses at those who direct intentionally wounding remarks at them, and say 'the hell with you', but not everyone can do that. And not everyone is able to consider him or herself 'number one'. And not everyone is able to 'take what they want and leave the rest'. And not everyone can put the lid on a hurtful barb, stop reading, and not feel it. Yes, some of us, perhaps most of us, can do this - but not everyone can. The ones who can't are the people who concern me when I see bullying going on.

People in pain, as you rightly say, have heightened sensitivity. I think most people here are quite aware of that, and take the trouble to modulate what they say with it in mind. But there is one person who doesn't, and in answer to your question, I'll tell you what I think is going on here.

We all know and understand that Elliott is in pain. But being in pain is no excuse for inflicting pain on other people, which he has regularly done on and off since he arrived, and has been doing to Tammie for the last two days. However exasperated he was, he owed her an apology for slamming her in his long post about her emotionalism and confused reluctance to follow his advice. Instead, when SHE apologized to HIM (goodness knows for what, but that's Tammie) he slapped her down again.

His being in pain is no excuse, either, for his sarcastic sneers and jibes at people here, including, perhaps especially, me, whose ways of expressing themselves he doesn't approve of. 'Huggy', 'humourless','kind, sensitive heroines', 'way too much emotional support' - I won't go on. These things are hurtful to individuals, and more, they are damaging to the board.

It is no excuse either for his current attempt to manipulate and control the board (which has, fortunately, got the response it deserved). NO-ONE has the right to criticize the way people offer whatever it is they have to offer - whether it's information, or support, or hugs - or to try to change it, or to scoff at people for expressing themselves the way they do, and for being what they are. It's unkind. I am tired of it, and have tried to ignore it for some time, but now it seems time to call it.

I truly believe that there is good/God in everyone. But there is also such a thing as destructive behaviour, and when it is doing real harm in an essentially fragile community, I think it's necessary to recognize it for what it is.

I might and perhaps should have said all this to him, but it was your post that kick-started me into saying it, so I'll leave it as it is.

Re: hmmmm

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 07:51 (074108)

I certainly would never say that this applies to everyone....I don't think there's ever a topic that can? We are all different...
But of course I am not taking this as a slam to me...it's how you feel and I understand that totally and respect your opinion to no end. I guess what I was in long hand trying to say was that being a person who used to take things personally....I had to learn to stop NO matter what because it was damaging my self esteem, my life and my job. This was years ago but I won't forget what a hard lesson to learn that was. And it was face to face not online so that made it even worse...(don't ever let anyone tell you managing a high volume restaurant with 70 employees is ever easy!! ;-)
But the people who taught me to be who I am with no regard to the selfish and crude people around me will forevermore be engraved in my mind as a wonderful lesson that brought me to the strong place I am now. It was tough and I was defiant to the teachers....'But they're WRONG Corey!!! But that's not fair!!! I work 70 hours a week and he comes in here and knocks me to the ground as a person...what's right about that????' and on and on....not to mention I had to keep them as employees. Long story and a tough one but I am grateful I learned to stick up for myself and ignore 'ignorance' .

You're correct not everyone can do that...I guess it just bothers me to see others giving other people so much control over how they feel inside.
Does THAT part make sense?
I didn't read the posts to Tammie from Elliott....and sometimes he can be extremely harsh lord knows...
But just like some people don't know how to NOT take things Personally and move forward maybe he is one who doesn't know how to NOT be that way and I am once read something that said to show mercy to those (silently if you have to)who are cruel to you...that is the only way to live at peace with yourself? It's the cruel person who suffers most. Maybe that's the part I left out.

Anyway....
I am sure the support Tammie gets here and the love we all feel for her has to make her feel better......in some way or the other aren't we outweighing all the damage Elliott may be doing to her??? Surely we are???
It just seems like so much unnecessary wasted time and energy that could be directed other places.
Maybe Tammie should ask Scott to review the conversation and see if he could limit Elliott to posting on the treatments and doctors and TTS boards??
I don't know the answer all I know is I hate that Tammie feels this badly over what one person is doing to her.
She deserves better....

Re: p.s. Excuse all the spelling errors...I never use spell check. (NM)

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 07:53 (074109)

.

Re: hmmmm

Julie on 2/18/02 at 08:04 (074113)

Carmen, just a few quick comments, because I'm on my way out to my class.

I certainly agree with you about Tammie, and I do hope that the damage done has been outweighed. Knowing her, I'm sure it has. But that doesn't excuse the damage so wilfully done.

I think people CAN help the way they are, and change - if they want to.

I don't think it's fair to blame people who haven't yet reached the wisdom that you have reached - and it is wisdom. If they haven't the self-esteem to protect themselves, blaming them for taking things to heart doesn't help them to develop it.

I think you CAN show mercy to those who are cruel to you, and that this can - sometimes - be a good and useful quality. But you don't have to stand by and watch them being cruel to others. I said what I said because I was finally sick of watching and trying to make allowances.

I don't think Scott needs to be brought in. I think it will resolve itself.

All the best to you, Carmen.

Julie

Re: you're absolutely right

elliott on 2/18/02 at 08:04 (074114)

Apologies to everyone. Goodbye.

---

Re: hmmmm

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:14 (074116)

I appreciate your reponse...I guess I didn't see myself as 'blaming her' for taking things to heart. I seriously would never have even thought that it seemed like blame. It helps to have someone else's eyes....

Re: you're absolutely right

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:14 (074117)

Let me know how you are Elliott...and if you ever decide to go to he chiro. haha
(email removed)

Re: Carmen

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:44 (074120)

Thanks Wendy...It wasn't a slam to ANYone and their coping skills just trying to bring a little awareness to the board that we can't take everything so personally....
Even I was once told 'Don't take things so personally...because 99.9% of the time it's not personal'
even when it's directed at us....most people are just having their own hard time and unfortunately some people take the brunt of it.
:-(

Also heard something once....'It's not WHAT happens to you that matters. It's what you DO with what happens to you that is important.'

Re: No Please do not leave!

Tammie on 2/18/02 at 09:37 (074127)

Please do not leave you are valuable to this board and to the dr.s who give there time. You really do help people. Leave my feelings out Please! I respect you for your medical knowledge! The other does not outweigh the knowledge!

Re: Wow, Elliott!

JudyS on 2/18/02 at 15:30 (074197)

Elliott, I've got to hand it to you. I haven't had a chance to look at these message boards in several days so I sort of got a bird's eye view of this thread from inception to now and it sure looks like you've done a truly effective manipulation job. From the bird's eye view, it looks well-planned and well executed.

First, you were absent for awhile. So some kind hearts started asking 'Where's Elliott?'. Perfect groundwork.

Then, in response, you came on and criticised how we use these boards. Funny, they were working just fine for us. How amazing that you got tons of reaction to that post. Just as you'd planned?

Then, you bullied Tammy. Hmmmm.....more reaction. From readers who asked you to leave her alone to Tammy herself who took on responsibility for your behavior and for the negative stuff in the thread. That's so remarkable given that she had zero responsibility for it at all. Well done, Elliott - nothing like choosing vulnerable targets.

Then, when some of those kind hearts gave you a bit of your own ascerbic medicine, you said adios. Classic.

Last, you've got Tammy asking you to stay. Don't go. This is one of the better circles of manipulation/reaction I've ever seen. Wow, Elliott.

If folks like you were on this board when I was in the height of PF angst and came here, I wouldn't have stayed. I needed help, I needed support, I needed understanding and I got it. I still get it. Your kind of 'in your face' advice doesn't work because you are just too insensitive about it. Just because someone may or may not bow to your advice, that doesn't give you the right to bully them. It's not your job to save anyone from themselves. And perhaps you need to understand this; when you say something like 'Obese, African American.....' - it's questionable because NO ONE READING IT KNOWS WHAT IS IN YOUR THOUGHTS THAT PROMPTED THE REMARK! Get it? You've got your own special, Elliott language and we don't know how to interpret it. In fact, I'd already started to go by Carmen's theory where you're concerned and I'd come to the point of not even reading your posts. They seemed designed to raise someone's ire. They seemed manipulative in spite of your wealth of knowledge.
So, heck, if you can't be nice, (that's what works HERE) then go ahead, take it to one of those other boards that apparently are better than this one because people there get to post any old mean thing they want. WHATEVER!

Re: To Judy Wow, Elliott!

Pauline on 2/18/02 at 16:00 (074201)

Judy,
Good observations. People forget we've had lots of people coming and going, threatening their 'goodbyes' doctors included, but if you look back, truly look back they either had no real intention of leaving or missed all the fussing and soon return. Sometimes for what ever reason, people need to feel valued. The begging fulfills this need reassuring their self worth.

My approach though primitive is to allow them their 'goodbye' response,
and wait to see what happens. The choice to continue posting is really theirs you know, why not allow them to have it.

Re: hmmmm

Julie on 2/18/02 at 16:45 (074219)

Hi again Carmen: I'm home. 'Blame' might have been the wrong word - I really was in a hurry to catch my train. I was responding to your saying that if you let someone upset you, 'it's no-one's fault but your own', and I was afraid that might feed into Tammie's tendency to blame herself for everything.

I didn't for a second think you were slamming anyone - I know you couldn't and wouldn't - and I certainly wasn't slamming you.