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Posted by Carmen H on 2/17/02 at 18:35 (074052)

Funny thing. Went to PT for the first visit at a new place Friday (it's attached to the POD's office). She started massage after a very thorough exam of my feetand walk history etc.
She started rubbing on the OUTside of my arch and it just plain hurt!!!!
I jumped and she said..'So you ARE sensitive there? that tells me a lot.'
Docs...NO ONE has EVER pushed, touched, felt, or anything that part of my foot before. Always at the heel. No matter how many times I have told everyone that it doesn't hurt there....WHY would they insist on massaging my foot there, giving me shots there etc?
She told me that they were treating me as if I had heelspurs and not just PF. That there was obvious swelling on the outside of my arch where the fascia enters my foot (this is not verbatim so don't quote me ;-)).
She says she thinks we can make real progress now that we are working on the actual problem spot as opposed to all the wrong places.
Any thoughts?

Re: Dr.s

Marci on 2/17/02 at 22:18 (074080)

Carmen, can you explain just where this painful area is on the outside of your arch? Is it near the back of your foot? I have an area that is quite painful, not on the bottom of the foot but more on the side (edge) that is just behind the arch (near the back of my foot) and radiates up and in towards and around my ankle bone. Is this similar to where your pain is?? Is this PF? Mine can occasionally be painful in the morning but as I walk more it hurts more. By the end of the day the entire area from the inside (on the side not the bottom) of my heel towards the arch and around the ankle is quite painful even to touch. I still have another week until I see the doc and have been using ice and massage with some anti-inflamatory medicine but not much seems to help. I am also trying to rest as much as possible. I just don't know if this is a PF problem or not, it has nothing to do with the bottom of my foot at all. I have been reading these board for the last few weeks and recently posted. While I have never met you you seem to be quite caring and helpful here. I am just wondering if the pain your describing is similar to where the pain I have is located. I hope that I have described the location. It is my right foot and it is on the inside of it. I have alsoe developed pain below the ankle bone on the outside of the foot as well but am attributing that to the fact that I walk different because of the inside pain.. I am just wondering if this could be PF and if I could benefit from taping even if it's not on the bottom of the foot. Sorry for being so long winded here but I am just trying to prevent any further damage before my appointment. From what I have read the earlier this is taken care of the better. Thank you and anyone who might be of help.

Re: Dr.s

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:09 (074115)

You're correct the earlier you catch it the better! Good for you on trying to take care of this.
Yes that's where my PF pain is....I have it bilaterally though...lucky me huh? Yes the more I walk the worse it gets and I have little or NO pain in the morning...sounds the same. But your doctor will be best suited to confirm your suspicions.
Are you making sure you are wearing good shoes? (New Balance, Birks etc) and never going barefoot? This should keep you in check along with what else you are doing until you get to the doctor.
How long have you had this pain?
I didn't benefit from taping so I can't answer on that. Except to say you can certainly try it.....:-)

Re: Dr.s

Marci on 2/18/02 at 08:24 (074118)

Thanks for the answer Carmen. I read the heel pain book last night after I posted here and am going to try to follow the advice listed there between now and the time I have my appointment. This has been going on for a few months but just in the last month or so it has gotten much worse. I did notice in the book that it mentioned a tarsal tunnel area and when I asked earlier on the board about this Dr. Zuckerman also mentioned this area. I am going to try the taping and see what happens even though this isn't on the bottom of the foot at all. I will keep you posted as to anything I find that helps. I don't have the Birks like you mentioned but will go looking for a pair of New Balance as I am sure I will have better luck finding them locally. Thank you for your kind answer.

Re: Dr.s

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 09:58 (074135)

Good luck and keep us posted!!!!

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 10:49 (074145)

Carmen: When you refer to the 'OUTside of my arch' are you talking about outside on the bottom of your foot, or up the inside of your ankle? I've long had a tender spot along the little-toe-bone structure, about midway front to back on bottom of my foot. For a long time it seemed the only sensitive spot on my foot bottom, but it's sort of a bone soreness, not a tendon soreness. Massaging it though, didn't seem to do much for my heel pain. Just gave the PT something to hurt. (I think maybe they like that [well some of them seem to anyway]:). Maybe with you it'll be different.

External pressure on my PF didn't hurt, even with firm digging into my insertion point, for a long time too. Left is still that way. Right is now more tender, (though not as sore to the touch as the point I described). I think I recall Scott describing his PF that way too, as have others.

It's always amazed me that I can dig into my insertion point with full strength and feel nothing, but put pressure there -- through my body -- by standing, and yowee! Makes me believe PF has everything to do with over-stretching (or elongating) my 'aggravated' fascia, and little to do with squeezing things. Fascia fibers have lost there ability to slide by each other. How do you restore that? (If only we could grease 'em).

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 11:45 (074161)

The heck with grease, let's make them more elastic somehow! LOL

I'll bet giving birth helps PF, what with all those hormones that help one's tissues stretch to accomodate that process. Not that I'm volunteering to test that hypothesis!

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 12:37 (074174)

Carole: I'll test it! I've tried most everything else.

Way-kidding. But your thinking suggests that there must be some body hormone or chemical that facilitates tissue looseness. Maybe some day a pill will do the trick? (The fascia-loosening trick, not the other trick).

Om that note, I saw the tail end of a news bit a few days ago that described how scientists have genetically synthesized, I believe a protein, that can be injected into 'older' individuals and restore tissue-healing abilities to what they were when a child. Seems as we age our body loses the ability to produce that protein in the 'rapid-healing' quantities it once was able to.

Not sure what stage research was at, but the scientist being interviewed was already expressing concern that young sports enthusiasts might find a way to abuse it -- and that wasn't the intended purpose. Speeding the healing of older folk was -- 'older' being, I believe over 40.

Re: Sore spots

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 13:05 (074180)

My pain is on the inside of the foot along the arch...but not on the bottom of my foot. I wish I could draw a picture! Almost three inches directly below the ankle bone is where it starts...and just moves around in that area.
ONLY when she rubs it though. Otherwise it is all over the bottom of my feet....just referring pain everywhere. At least it's mild pain now....not bad.
It helps if i rub them, but stretching is the most effective tool.
My calves are tight too......always are and I stretch them daily.
Strange...
I hear you on the insertional part. I used to dig my knuckle in there to find the point of pain...and 'nothing'. But stand up? Sand still?
pass oouuuutttt pain and burning.
Now? I am better.
How's that stretching going for you? Is your head on your knee yet without lopping it off?
I still giggle over your posts from that time...

Re: grease and elastic

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 13:06 (074181)

There's a lady in my neighborhood that ripped her shoulder in two in an accident and they took blood from somewhere else (not sure where) and injected it into her shoulder and the bone is regrowing now...
weird stuff.

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 13:50 (074183)

I have a sore spot on my right foot in the same place. Inside ankle, below 'ankle bone', but clearly on side of foot, not bottom. Left foot is OK. Mine even looks a little different. About the size of a quarter. Always hurts to push into it. Doc thought it might be a torn muscle that isn't yet able to heal because of other nonsense going on down there. I'll be much interested in what they call your spot, and in how your PT trys to treat it.

I can touch my chin to my chest if I open my mouth. But I am a long ways from my knee. The angle of my ankle dorsiflexion is good though, and that's my main concern until I get back on my feet.

I've tried to cut down on most stretching. I can't escape the very real feeling that stretching any part of my body releases little 'osteoblast' like healy-things that course through my arteries and veins settling into any and all sore spots aggravating them. It squares some with a couple of posts from women lately noting that during cycle each month, their soft tissues are more vulnerable. Others have remarked how their wrists are sore with PF, and some have noted how wrist soreness has gone away as PF has gotten under control. My wrists are sore too. Something chemical is causing these vulnerabilities and sensations. Or so it seems. Anyway, I really overmanaged my condition last year, and part of my 'rest' plan now is to minimize aggravation as much as possible.

I am encouraged by your steady, though I'm sure frustratingly slow progress.

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 15:08 (074192)

My daughter and only child was nine and a half pounds. I am a tall and large boned person but even so that's huge. When it got close to the time to give birth, I could feel all those hormones working. It was like living in the body of 'plasticman' for any of you that read comic books in the early fifties. Or, to explain to the younger folks, it's as though your whole body was made of silly putty and could streeeeeeeeeeeeeettttch as needed. I could do all kinds of contortionist things that I haven't been able to do before or since. Good thing, too! I delivered her without even the slightest tearing of anything and without an episiotomy. Later when they told me how big she was I was absolutely horrified. LOL

But Glenn, you wouldn't want to be in that state all the time. For starters, it probably would be hard to find maternity clothes in your size! (grin)

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 15:43 (074199)

That is such an interesting observation. My wife (then), at 5'3, 110 pounds or so, gave birth to 3 kids, 7 to 9 pounds as well. I couldn't begin to imagine how.

I understand that hormones have something to do with dilating, and I believe I recall the hormones are released by the baby when it's ready. Or maybe they're triggered by the baby and then released by mom. I wonder too, when labor is induced, are 'artificial' hormones used to launch the loosening process? I'm at least ready to be induced, though I shudder to imagine what I might deliver.

I do indeed recall Plasticman. A favorite. I could use some of his stufff too. I think it had hops in it.

Dr. Ed had a very interesting post about this flexibility / blood flow topic last summer. For anyone interested, a search on 'fixation device' will single it up.

Re: grease and elastic

wendyn on 2/18/02 at 16:41 (074217)

I believe those hormones that cause all the elasticity are around throughout the pregnancy. I had trouble with my hips about the middle of my pregnancy - and the doctor blamed it on those hormones.

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 16:46 (074222)

It's been a quarter century or so since I read about those hormones. I seem to recall Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) being a big part of the 'plasticman effect' but there is also a whole symphony of hormones that get into play during childbirth. Some of them may indeed come from the little one. These hormones interact to produce the desired effects (if my quarter century old information and memory is correct).

I was induced with Pitocin, but Pitocin is not what you want; it just makes you cramp and go into labor! Believe me, you don't want cramps in your PF. (grin) So you don't have to be induced. You just have to be nine and a half months pregnant forever. Of course, your ex or any other woman can tell you that being nine and a half months pregnant IS forever. :)

I felt the elastic effect and all the rest long before I went into labor. I don't recall how long, but I think that at least by the time the baby began to drop (30 days before delivery, for me) I was feeling like a big ball of silly putty. I wasn't that way early in pregnancy. My 'hormonal symphony' hadn't kicked in fully enough.

I am so jazzed that somebody remembers Plasticman. He was my favorite too! I think I only saw two or three Plasticman comics before they stopped making them, and as I recall this was perhaps around 1953-54 when I was 5 or 6. I thought Plasticman was the coolest guy ever.

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 16:58 (074227)

Wendy, I am absolutely sure you remember this better than me! It's been forever since I was pregnant and it's hard for me to remember. All I remember is trying some gentle calisthenics and feeling like I was double jointed in every joint in my body! :)

Carole C

Re: Sore spots

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 18:24 (074247)

Remember when my wrists hurt??? I had pains in them too....weird isn't it?
Well I will keep you informed on how I do....keep your fingers crossed that I am on the right track and I will keep looking for your name as usual....
Chin to chest...open mouth....I bet you area real hoot in person too aren't you??
;-)
You let me kow the minute you get on your feet!

Re: Sore spots

monte on 2/18/02 at 20:03 (074256)

No joke....my wrists hurt too...especially my thumbs. I contributed it to being at the computer alot. You mean they can be related?

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 20:28 (074257)

I do think they can be related, but don't know the means.

One thought is that an injured fascia tightens up to protect itself from further damage. This causes pain, which limits activity and complements the healing process. Some mechanism (chemical?) causes that tightening. Now we have fascia-tightening 'chemicals' coursing through the bloodstream -- keeping things tight -- on guard and in greater numbers. If another tendon/fascia tissue (say in the wrists) experiences strain, that same mechanism rushes in to tighten things up. Perhaps even a litle strain, say too much computer time, or incidental stretching, is enough to trigger the response. Only now, because of threats elsewhere in the body, the response is immediate and perhaps excessive. Bi-lateral PF may result similarly. Course this is pure speculation ... but it sure feels like a fit.

Re: Sore spots

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 20:54 (074260)

Bingo, sounds right on the money to me, Glenn.

Carole C

Re: Dr.s

Marci on 2/17/02 at 22:18 (074080)

Carmen, can you explain just where this painful area is on the outside of your arch? Is it near the back of your foot? I have an area that is quite painful, not on the bottom of the foot but more on the side (edge) that is just behind the arch (near the back of my foot) and radiates up and in towards and around my ankle bone. Is this similar to where your pain is?? Is this PF? Mine can occasionally be painful in the morning but as I walk more it hurts more. By the end of the day the entire area from the inside (on the side not the bottom) of my heel towards the arch and around the ankle is quite painful even to touch. I still have another week until I see the doc and have been using ice and massage with some anti-inflamatory medicine but not much seems to help. I am also trying to rest as much as possible. I just don't know if this is a PF problem or not, it has nothing to do with the bottom of my foot at all. I have been reading these board for the last few weeks and recently posted. While I have never met you you seem to be quite caring and helpful here. I am just wondering if the pain your describing is similar to where the pain I have is located. I hope that I have described the location. It is my right foot and it is on the inside of it. I have alsoe developed pain below the ankle bone on the outside of the foot as well but am attributing that to the fact that I walk different because of the inside pain.. I am just wondering if this could be PF and if I could benefit from taping even if it's not on the bottom of the foot. Sorry for being so long winded here but I am just trying to prevent any further damage before my appointment. From what I have read the earlier this is taken care of the better. Thank you and anyone who might be of help.

Re: Dr.s

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 08:09 (074115)

You're correct the earlier you catch it the better! Good for you on trying to take care of this.
Yes that's where my PF pain is....I have it bilaterally though...lucky me huh? Yes the more I walk the worse it gets and I have little or NO pain in the morning...sounds the same. But your doctor will be best suited to confirm your suspicions.
Are you making sure you are wearing good shoes? (New Balance, Birks etc) and never going barefoot? This should keep you in check along with what else you are doing until you get to the doctor.
How long have you had this pain?
I didn't benefit from taping so I can't answer on that. Except to say you can certainly try it.....:-)

Re: Dr.s

Marci on 2/18/02 at 08:24 (074118)

Thanks for the answer Carmen. I read the heel pain book last night after I posted here and am going to try to follow the advice listed there between now and the time I have my appointment. This has been going on for a few months but just in the last month or so it has gotten much worse. I did notice in the book that it mentioned a tarsal tunnel area and when I asked earlier on the board about this Dr. Zuckerman also mentioned this area. I am going to try the taping and see what happens even though this isn't on the bottom of the foot at all. I will keep you posted as to anything I find that helps. I don't have the Birks like you mentioned but will go looking for a pair of New Balance as I am sure I will have better luck finding them locally. Thank you for your kind answer.

Re: Dr.s

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 09:58 (074135)

Good luck and keep us posted!!!!

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 10:49 (074145)

Carmen: When you refer to the 'OUTside of my arch' are you talking about outside on the bottom of your foot, or up the inside of your ankle? I've long had a tender spot along the little-toe-bone structure, about midway front to back on bottom of my foot. For a long time it seemed the only sensitive spot on my foot bottom, but it's sort of a bone soreness, not a tendon soreness. Massaging it though, didn't seem to do much for my heel pain. Just gave the PT something to hurt. (I think maybe they like that [well some of them seem to anyway]:). Maybe with you it'll be different.

External pressure on my PF didn't hurt, even with firm digging into my insertion point, for a long time too. Left is still that way. Right is now more tender, (though not as sore to the touch as the point I described). I think I recall Scott describing his PF that way too, as have others.

It's always amazed me that I can dig into my insertion point with full strength and feel nothing, but put pressure there -- through my body -- by standing, and yowee! Makes me believe PF has everything to do with over-stretching (or elongating) my 'aggravated' fascia, and little to do with squeezing things. Fascia fibers have lost there ability to slide by each other. How do you restore that? (If only we could grease 'em).

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 11:45 (074161)

The heck with grease, let's make them more elastic somehow! LOL

I'll bet giving birth helps PF, what with all those hormones that help one's tissues stretch to accomodate that process. Not that I'm volunteering to test that hypothesis!

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 12:37 (074174)

Carole: I'll test it! I've tried most everything else.

Way-kidding. But your thinking suggests that there must be some body hormone or chemical that facilitates tissue looseness. Maybe some day a pill will do the trick? (The fascia-loosening trick, not the other trick).

Om that note, I saw the tail end of a news bit a few days ago that described how scientists have genetically synthesized, I believe a protein, that can be injected into 'older' individuals and restore tissue-healing abilities to what they were when a child. Seems as we age our body loses the ability to produce that protein in the 'rapid-healing' quantities it once was able to.

Not sure what stage research was at, but the scientist being interviewed was already expressing concern that young sports enthusiasts might find a way to abuse it -- and that wasn't the intended purpose. Speeding the healing of older folk was -- 'older' being, I believe over 40.

Re: Sore spots

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 13:05 (074180)

My pain is on the inside of the foot along the arch...but not on the bottom of my foot. I wish I could draw a picture! Almost three inches directly below the ankle bone is where it starts...and just moves around in that area.
ONLY when she rubs it though. Otherwise it is all over the bottom of my feet....just referring pain everywhere. At least it's mild pain now....not bad.
It helps if i rub them, but stretching is the most effective tool.
My calves are tight too......always are and I stretch them daily.
Strange...
I hear you on the insertional part. I used to dig my knuckle in there to find the point of pain...and 'nothing'. But stand up? Sand still?
pass oouuuutttt pain and burning.
Now? I am better.
How's that stretching going for you? Is your head on your knee yet without lopping it off?
I still giggle over your posts from that time...

Re: grease and elastic

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 13:06 (074181)

There's a lady in my neighborhood that ripped her shoulder in two in an accident and they took blood from somewhere else (not sure where) and injected it into her shoulder and the bone is regrowing now...
weird stuff.

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 13:50 (074183)

I have a sore spot on my right foot in the same place. Inside ankle, below 'ankle bone', but clearly on side of foot, not bottom. Left foot is OK. Mine even looks a little different. About the size of a quarter. Always hurts to push into it. Doc thought it might be a torn muscle that isn't yet able to heal because of other nonsense going on down there. I'll be much interested in what they call your spot, and in how your PT trys to treat it.

I can touch my chin to my chest if I open my mouth. But I am a long ways from my knee. The angle of my ankle dorsiflexion is good though, and that's my main concern until I get back on my feet.

I've tried to cut down on most stretching. I can't escape the very real feeling that stretching any part of my body releases little 'osteoblast' like healy-things that course through my arteries and veins settling into any and all sore spots aggravating them. It squares some with a couple of posts from women lately noting that during cycle each month, their soft tissues are more vulnerable. Others have remarked how their wrists are sore with PF, and some have noted how wrist soreness has gone away as PF has gotten under control. My wrists are sore too. Something chemical is causing these vulnerabilities and sensations. Or so it seems. Anyway, I really overmanaged my condition last year, and part of my 'rest' plan now is to minimize aggravation as much as possible.

I am encouraged by your steady, though I'm sure frustratingly slow progress.

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 15:08 (074192)

My daughter and only child was nine and a half pounds. I am a tall and large boned person but even so that's huge. When it got close to the time to give birth, I could feel all those hormones working. It was like living in the body of 'plasticman' for any of you that read comic books in the early fifties. Or, to explain to the younger folks, it's as though your whole body was made of silly putty and could streeeeeeeeeeeeeettttch as needed. I could do all kinds of contortionist things that I haven't been able to do before or since. Good thing, too! I delivered her without even the slightest tearing of anything and without an episiotomy. Later when they told me how big she was I was absolutely horrified. LOL

But Glenn, you wouldn't want to be in that state all the time. For starters, it probably would be hard to find maternity clothes in your size! (grin)

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 15:43 (074199)

That is such an interesting observation. My wife (then), at 5'3, 110 pounds or so, gave birth to 3 kids, 7 to 9 pounds as well. I couldn't begin to imagine how.

I understand that hormones have something to do with dilating, and I believe I recall the hormones are released by the baby when it's ready. Or maybe they're triggered by the baby and then released by mom. I wonder too, when labor is induced, are 'artificial' hormones used to launch the loosening process? I'm at least ready to be induced, though I shudder to imagine what I might deliver.

I do indeed recall Plasticman. A favorite. I could use some of his stufff too. I think it had hops in it.

Dr. Ed had a very interesting post about this flexibility / blood flow topic last summer. For anyone interested, a search on 'fixation device' will single it up.

Re: grease and elastic

wendyn on 2/18/02 at 16:41 (074217)

I believe those hormones that cause all the elasticity are around throughout the pregnancy. I had trouble with my hips about the middle of my pregnancy - and the doctor blamed it on those hormones.

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 16:46 (074222)

It's been a quarter century or so since I read about those hormones. I seem to recall Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) being a big part of the 'plasticman effect' but there is also a whole symphony of hormones that get into play during childbirth. Some of them may indeed come from the little one. These hormones interact to produce the desired effects (if my quarter century old information and memory is correct).

I was induced with Pitocin, but Pitocin is not what you want; it just makes you cramp and go into labor! Believe me, you don't want cramps in your PF. (grin) So you don't have to be induced. You just have to be nine and a half months pregnant forever. Of course, your ex or any other woman can tell you that being nine and a half months pregnant IS forever. :)

I felt the elastic effect and all the rest long before I went into labor. I don't recall how long, but I think that at least by the time the baby began to drop (30 days before delivery, for me) I was feeling like a big ball of silly putty. I wasn't that way early in pregnancy. My 'hormonal symphony' hadn't kicked in fully enough.

I am so jazzed that somebody remembers Plasticman. He was my favorite too! I think I only saw two or three Plasticman comics before they stopped making them, and as I recall this was perhaps around 1953-54 when I was 5 or 6. I thought Plasticman was the coolest guy ever.

Carole C

Re: grease and elastic

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 16:58 (074227)

Wendy, I am absolutely sure you remember this better than me! It's been forever since I was pregnant and it's hard for me to remember. All I remember is trying some gentle calisthenics and feeling like I was double jointed in every joint in my body! :)

Carole C

Re: Sore spots

Carmen H on 2/18/02 at 18:24 (074247)

Remember when my wrists hurt??? I had pains in them too....weird isn't it?
Well I will keep you informed on how I do....keep your fingers crossed that I am on the right track and I will keep looking for your name as usual....
Chin to chest...open mouth....I bet you area real hoot in person too aren't you??
;-)
You let me kow the minute you get on your feet!

Re: Sore spots

monte on 2/18/02 at 20:03 (074256)

No joke....my wrists hurt too...especially my thumbs. I contributed it to being at the computer alot. You mean they can be related?

Re: Sore spots

Glennx on 2/18/02 at 20:28 (074257)

I do think they can be related, but don't know the means.

One thought is that an injured fascia tightens up to protect itself from further damage. This causes pain, which limits activity and complements the healing process. Some mechanism (chemical?) causes that tightening. Now we have fascia-tightening 'chemicals' coursing through the bloodstream -- keeping things tight -- on guard and in greater numbers. If another tendon/fascia tissue (say in the wrists) experiences strain, that same mechanism rushes in to tighten things up. Perhaps even a litle strain, say too much computer time, or incidental stretching, is enough to trigger the response. Only now, because of threats elsewhere in the body, the response is immediate and perhaps excessive. Bi-lateral PF may result similarly. Course this is pure speculation ... but it sure feels like a fit.

Re: Sore spots

Carole C in NOLA on 2/18/02 at 20:54 (074260)

Bingo, sounds right on the money to me, Glenn.

Carole C