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On spelling, grammer and punctuation

Posted by JudyS on 5/14/02 at 23:52 (083974)

What an interesting discussion! And lots of kudos to Lisa who made us sit up and take notice.

It's a fact, my friends, we all grew up learning basic spelling, grammer and punctuation skills from our respective Mrs. McCrackens. Consequently, if those tools aren't in use, we tend to overlook the job - i.e. - if there's no hammer then there's no nailing going on. Those SG&P tools were taught to all of us in order that we can communicate with a common method. If they're not in use, it's tough to complete the 'project'.

In this case, the project is the Board and the information we get to share. If the information isn't in a format we can grasp via our standardized skills, it stands a huge chance of being overlooked. And that's not a good thing because every single person comes here looking for needed, and deserved, information.

On the other hand, many come here with nothing but frustration in their souls. So spelling, grammer and puncuation be damned. That's OK, as far as I'm concerned as long as the poster knows it could make it tough to read their information which in turn makes it too likely that the information will be overlooked.
But look at it this way - if the poster is that frustrated, don't they deserve that much more patience from the rest of us? Goodness knows we've all been there!

Re: Very well said Judy.....(End of Message)

Necee on 5/15/02 at 01:07 (083979)

Necee

Re: On clarity

Julie on 5/15/02 at 01:55 (083984)

Judy, I have apologized to Lisa. Please see my post on the thread on the treatments board. I don't want to repeat myself too much.

It wasn't SPG I was on about, it was clarity. It's perfectly possible to be clear in one's thinking and keyboarding without being good at spelling, which, I agree, can be happily damned - as long as it's genuine shakiness in spelling. But when it's carelessness, when it's not bothering to hit the right keys or correct the results of landing on the wrong ones, then it becomes lack of consideration for others, because it wastes the time of those who really want to help, but who can't spend ALL their time deciphering mis-typed messages.

Yes, people who are frustrated by pain are entitled to patience. I have a good deal of that, as I think you realize. But it snapped yesterday. Apart from a great deal of time, I spend a small fortune on my internet connection, usually rather more than $100 a month. 90% of my on-line time is spent here on heelspurs.com, trying to help. That means reading posts carefully, and devoting a good deal of time and effort to making my own posts clear. My frustration yesterday at having to read a post slowly, four times, before giving up, was very great. I hope you can understand that.

Re: On clarity

Carole C in NOLA on 5/15/02 at 07:20 (083991)

Julie, don't feel bad. I very nearly began the same topic on the 'inserts, orthotics, shoes' board right before I went to the treatments and saw yours.

I don't think Julie or any of the regulars here are lacking in patience and caring towards others who are suffering with PF, because this is a shared experience. They've all been patient with me and with many others. Likewise, I hope that Lisa can have some patience with the rest of us and understands that the motivation here is communication.

I think the regulars here. including Julie, truly do want to help and sometimes just coming out and honestly presenting what the problem is, can help the person better than saying nothing while she writes post after post without adequate response.

Some of the regulars here seem to be able to get some meaning out of these posts than Julie and I can; I'm thinking of Paula who so kindly helped by 'translating' for me. If any of them can help out by responding more frequently to them, giving the rest of us a clue as to the topic, it is much appreciated.

Carole C

Carole C

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 10:17 (084008)

yes i agree judy. some of us are in so much pain that it is gruelling to post here and yet we need communication and support. and we should all remember that we need emotional support and kindness as much as we need information. in some cases maybe even more. the pain, the frustration of doctors and orthotics that never work for some of us, the lives we no longer have....sometimes i feel this board is all that keeps me going. and others may feel that way too. some people cannot express themselves clearly when they write. i will slog through and try to grasp it if i can. i'm in too much pain to worry about capitals , punctuation, typos, . i have to change positions constantly. those who can bear with posts such as mine, thank you. those who cannot due to eye strain or whatever, pass on. i will be the loser in not getting your feedback but at least i can be here and participate to the extent that i can. i am never insulted when folks ask for a better presentation, i am just concerned that others may be. remember, something like five percent of the american public read for pleasure! we can't expect everyone who posts here to be as well written as some are here. either due to pain or due to lack of education or due to dyslexia.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

Rich on 5/15/02 at 10:39 (084011)

Hello Paula....I was following this thread last night also. Your posts are quite clear to follow regardless of caps or not. Since we post here about our feet, we do not realize the difficulty some have with other illnesses. My feet may hurt, but my fingers still fly! Thank goodness you can come here at all! Keep posting....

Richelle

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:21 (084017)

yes i agree judy. some of us are in so much pain that it is gruelling to post here and yet we need communication and support. and we should all remember that we need emotional support and kindness as much as we need information. in some cases maybe even more. the pain, the frustration of doctors and orthotics that never work for some of us, the lives we no longer have....sometimes i feel this board is all that keeps me going. and others may feel that way too. some people cannot express themselves clearly when they write. i will slog through and try to grasp it if i can. i'm in too much pain to worry about capitals , punctuation, typos, . i have to change positions constantly. those who can bear with posts such as mine, thank you. those who cannot due to eye strain or whatever, pass on. i will be the loser in not getting your feedback but at least i can be here and participate to the extent that i can. i am never insulted when folks ask for a better presentation, i am just concerned that others may be. remember, something like five percent of the american public read for pleasure! we can't expect everyone who posts here to be as well written as some are here. either due to pain or due to lack of education or due to dyslexia.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:29 (084019)

julie i don't think what you did is bad and i dont' even think you needed to apologize. you just stated your opinion and your ideas and your way to help the situation. i had a whole other way of looking at these issues. that's all. are you the same julie who teaches us how to stretch? if so the stretch lessons have helped me a lot. thank you.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:34 (084022)

i think everyone in this discussion has been reasonable, polite, and a cut above the average. now, who *****ing needs me to ****ing interpret ozzy ***ing osbourne? :)

Re: Paula

Julie on 5/15/02 at 12:47 (084032)

Yes, Paula, and I am glad if anything I've ever said about stretching has helped you.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

Rick R on 5/15/02 at 21:37 (084098)

Paula,

After 45 years and two degrees, one with honors, I still can't spell worth a darned. I today's school environment, I would be culled from the herd and labeled with dyslexia. Back in my day, I was simply informed that I cared less than the other little darlings. What a hoot when it came to public speaking, that was sweet revenge! On behalf of my challenged brothers and sisters, I thank you for your understanding. We do not all share the same gifts.

kciR

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

john h on 5/16/02 at 16:44 (084194)

Rick: Maybe spelling is some sort of genetic thing. My spelling has always been #$%$#@! I am very good in the physical sciences and math but was not blessed with any sense of spelling. If I were writing a term paper or something important I would drag out the dictionary. Happy spelling all!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Carole C in NOLA on 5/16/02 at 18:02 (084212)

John, that brings back memories. :) My mother was a high school English teacher with three wild kids to raise. When I was reading and came across a word that I didn't know, sometimes I would ask her the meaning. No matter how simple the word, she would ask me what the dictionary definition was. I'd read it to her and we'd try making up examples using that word.

Pretty soon I was used to having the dictionary with me when I read for fun, so that I could look up words. That navy blue dictionary got a lot of use! Whenever I wrote anything for school, even homework in grade school, the dictionary was right at my elbow so I would check any spellings that seemed doubtful. What a great friend that dictionary was for me. It wasn't actually mine, but my mother quietly bought another and the navy blue one was always with me. I still have that dictionary. It has fallen apart from years of use, though.

I was always better in the physical sciences and math too, but I won my share of spelling bees and I owe that entirely to my sweet mother. She is a great deal like Suzanne in personality and in the way she teaches with love.

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Suzanne D on 5/16/02 at 18:48 (084217)

That was sweet of you to say, Carole. Thank you! My mother was very much like your mother with the habit of looking up words. She never told my sister and I directly how to spell anything, but told us to look it up in the dictionary. She also would get really excited about a new word we might hear or ask about. She would show such enthusiasm as she said, 'Let's look it up!'

As far as spelling goes, I do think it is partly genetic despite all the teaching we may have; I know my sister was much better than me in the sciences (and became an RN), while I was better in reading and spelling.

Thanks for helping me remember my mother tonight! :-)

Suzanne

Re: memories of a dictionary

wendyn on 5/16/02 at 20:19 (084223)

I look up words too!

Our CEO was giving a speech recently and he said something about 'A situation that was primed for defalcation' we all though he said DEFACATION.

It was funny at the time. But I know what defalcation means now!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/16/02 at 21:09 (084228)

I absolutely LOVE a good dictionary. My favorite is the Oxford English Dictionary, where you can get lost in the meanings AND the histories of the words. But even a regular American Heritage or Webster's is a great place for me to just get lost for a while--I find that I can open it intending to look up one word, then think of another, and that one will make me think of a few more... and before I know it, an hour has gone by. And all I've done is read the dictionary!

I know, I know, I'm a language geek. :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Carole C in NOLA on 5/16/02 at 21:42 (084234)

My navy blue dictionary that is in tatters right here in my hands, is Websters New Collegiate Dictionary. I remember feeling so intellectual using it as a little girl, because it was for college people! (grin)

It's my favorite. The Oxford is too big for me to snuggle up with when I'm reading in bed. On the other hand, I'll bet lots of people are smarter and don't do that. Their dictionaries are probably all in one piece!

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Suzanne D on 5/16/02 at 21:44 (084236)

I try to teach my first graders the value of understanding words and how helpful a dictionary can be. We have a classroom set of children's dictionaries, but now and then if we encounter a word that is not in them, we will march up the steps to the library and find it in the huge dictionary on the stand there. That makes a big impression, and everyone remembers what we found.

We sometimes have made lists on the board of all the word pairs we can find that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings - like herd and heard. They get excited about adding to the list. We read Amelia Bedelia books and giggle over how she mixes up the meanings of words.

I find that when I am enthusiastic about it, they catch the spirit, and I hope it helps to instill some life-long habits in them.

I'm a language 'geek', too, just on an elementary level! :-)

Suzanne

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 00:47 (084248)

i love it when people love dictionaries. i love all you dictionary lovers out there.

i keep a dictionary right next to the living room couch, and i end up using it almost every night -- sometimes because of a word i heard or saw during the day, and sometimes because my husband has a chronic but very creative & lovable tendency to make up words without realizing it.

when i was in fourth grade i took a special 'course' on looking things up, both in dictionaries and in encyclopedias. at the end, i received a most-impressive-looking certificate saying that i was a full-fledged member of the official 'Look It Up Club.' i was terribly proud of it, and i have it in some box of papers to this day. (don't laugh, but i had it hanging on the wall for fun up to about five years ago!)

nancy
(Sleepless in Old Orchard Beach, but it's my own fault because i took a six-hour nap that began at 6 p.m.)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 05:39 (084255)

Nancy--

Some of my best friends are language geeks :) (And by the way, this is not a pejorative use of the word 'geek'!!) I love the idea that you got a certificate for looking things up!!

My kinda-sorta-maybe boyfriend has a tendency to make up words, too, though his are a bit more deliberate. One of my favorite recent creations is 'hypotheoretically.' And the scary thing is, it made perfect sense to me when he first said it!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 05:41 (084256)

Yeah, the OED's 22 volumes are not terribly snuggly! I don't think the compact version would be, either. I'm not a dictionary snob, really--I appreciate both kinds for their varied benefits. It's the words, I'm interested in--gimme the WORDS, baby! :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

wendyn on 5/17/02 at 07:35 (084266)

I love 'hypotheoretically' - maybe I will have to use that!

There is one woman at work who hears a new word, and then she uses is it ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter if it really fits or not. If I her 'salient' more than 5 times in our meeting today, I'm going to run screaming from the room.

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 07:47 (084269)

nancy, i don't mind being a geek so long as it's in only one way. i too love 'hypotheoretically.' i don't know if i could fit it into a sentence unless i'd had an extra glass of wine, though!

one night phil came home and told me that while he was doing renovation work on a museum house that day some person kept coming by and talking to him. he can't work and talk at the same time and was very annoyed. he said this person got him all 'flubbergusted.'

nancy

Re: memories of a dictionary

Rich on 5/17/02 at 08:12 (084275)

Can I get on this bandwagon too? I love to read, even took a speed-reading course once. I too am a dictionary fan!

My favorite supervisor of all time loved to use the word 'paradigm'. He was really creative with it and others. During our weekly manager's meetings, we would all look around and smile (intelligently, amongst ourselves! LOL)then run back to our desk dictionaries! We would never admit to not knowing or understanding exactly what he was talking about!

P.S. I did all his proofreading...and his secretaries, too! I can be a geek too!

Richelle

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 08:50 (084282)

Directly in front of my computer is (1)Ninth edition of Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (2) Family Word Finder (4) Bartlett's Quotations (5) The Essential Researcher (6) The World Almanac (7)Emcyclopedia Britanica. I still spell poorly.

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:20 (084306)

Ahh, but you're well-read, John, and that makes all the difference. The one cancels out the other :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:22 (084307)

Wendy--the perfect solution would be to throw 'hypotheoretically' at this woman every time she uses 'salient.' If you convince her that it's a real word, the effects could be quite illuminating, if not downright hilarious!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:24 (084308)

'Hypotheoretically' does have a certain ring to it, doesn't it? I think I like the sound of it as much as anything else. (Boy, will he be surprised when I tell him this word is getting around on the internet!)

'Flubbergusted' is pretty good, too! Did you burst out laughing, or did you manage to restrain yourself? I'm not sure I'd have been able to keep from laughing, myself...

Oh, how I love language!! :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 13:46 (084318)

Hi. Another Dictionary-user here... hee hee.

I won the spelling bee 2 years in a row, and was awarded a dictionary each time (one red, one blue). One of them was signed by my principal, and oh boy am I ever proud of that one. It does not matter how casual the situation, if I am typing and not 100% sure, I LOOK IT UP... can't help myself.... hee hee... (and didn't anyone notice: it's grammar, not grammer... hee hee :P... sorry can't help it I said.)

One word you won't find in the dictionary though... gullible. I checked...it's not there... (??)

Val.

Re: A ....... LOT of memories

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 13:50 (084321)

Oh and one more thing... in my 11th grade grammar class, Mrs. Latham (our Mrs. McCracken... hee hee) would make anyone who wrote the word alot get up and write 'A' on one side of the blackboard, walk across to the other side and write 'LOT' ... you just have to watch one or two people do that 50 times before you remember that alot is not a word (and that would be a lot of walking back and forth if you had PF...)

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 15:42 (084348)

john, just look at how you mangled the 'encyclopaedia britannica.' your poor books! but i love you anyway! if spelling were a test of caring, my husband would be in big trouble. but actually, having been forced for so long by my editing career to be a real stickler, i'm very fond of his imaginative mistakes.

i do make sure to correct him when it matters, though -- like when he calls our friend Rolf 'Rold.' yikes.

nancy

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 15:52 (084350)

nancy, i burst out laughing at 'flubbergusted.' i couldn't help it. i can't help it most of the time, and he's used to it; in fact, he laughs now too. fortunately i think he's happy to amuse me no matter what it takes. and i probably have more flaws to poke fun at than he does.

we got over being sensitive about these things, oh, about seven years into our thirteen-year relationship. it was worth it!

nancy

Re: The Love of Words!

Janet C on 5/17/02 at 17:46 (084364)

I used to read the dictionary, too! Today, I not only keep a dicionary and a thesaurus by my computer, I often use the Web site:

http://www.dictionary.com/

Valerie, I found gullible in my dictionary!

It reads: gul li ble (adj.) easily deceived or cheated.

It's in the online dictionary, too.

~ Janet

Re: Gullible

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 18:56 (084373)

HA HA HA !!! ...

I think it says: gul li ble (noun) Janet C.

HA HA HA !!!

Sorry, it's an old one... and I fell for it once too! hee hee hee...

It's even funnier you looked it up twice :)

^.^
\_/

Val.

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 18:59 (084374)

Nancy N: One of my early reading experiences: My mother and father left town and left me in care of a Minister. I asked him to bring me a comic book when he left one morning expecting Superman or Batman. He brought me a comic book ' The Story of Jesus'. I think I was about 7 years old but I have not forgotten. Yes I did read it and look at the pictures!

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 19:01 (084376)

Valerie: The thought of a spelling bee makes me break out in a cold sweat!!!! I could stand up and brief the Wing Commander daily but a spelling bee---no way jose!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:11 (084378)

Nancy--if you are both able to laugh about it, you are light years ahead of most of us. I think that's great. People who make me laugh always get my attention ;)

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 19:13 (084381)

Nancy: I just this week upgraded my encyclopedia Briticana to the CD version. Only 2 CD's is that unreal or what?

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:16 (084382)

I won my 6th-grade spelling bee, which amazed me. I was at the end of the long line of fellow 6th-graders, and watched in wonder as the word 'accommodate' felled everyone up to me. We're talking about at least ten or fifteen kids here. I had figured it out long before they got to me because all the other variation had been tried! Process of elimination got me that one, because I don't think I had any better idea of how to spell that word than anyone else. But I could remember the previous mispellings and go from there.

Actually, now that I think about it, the runner-up and I were supposed to be taken to dinner as our prize. I remember our teacher, Mr. Pflaum (now THERE'S a name!) telling us what our options are. And yet, somehow, it never happened. I wonder if I could collect, all these years later?

I got stage fright after that, and always deliberately screwed up in the middle school bee so I wouldn't have to stand in front of the whole school and try to spell something. A friend of mine made it to the state bee, though, and got stuck on 'panache.' Oh well :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:46 (084383)

John:

I think you can get the 22-volume OED on CD these days, but it's REALLY expensive. :)

Re: Gullible

Janet C on 5/17/02 at 22:07 (084406)

Hahaha! Got me!

Re: Gullible IS THERE

Carol C on 5/18/02 at 13:36 (084454)

One word you won't find in the dictionary though... gullible. I checked...it's not there... (??)

What dictonary are you using? The following is from WEBSTER' Online...

Main Entry: gull·ible
Variant(s): also gull.able /'g&-l&-b&l/
Function: adjective
Date: 1818
: easily duped or cheated
- gull·ibil·i·ty /'g&-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- gull·ibly /'g&-l&-blE/ adverb

Pronunciation Key

Re: Gullible IS THERE

Carole C in NOLA on 5/18/02 at 14:05 (084456)

Hi, Carol! I haven't seen you post in a while.

I think the 'gullible' thing was a joke. Read the other posts, and you'll see. :)

How have you been feeling?

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Tammie on 5/18/02 at 17:49 (084481)

That is great Nancy I could never do that lol! But In sunday school I remembered the 10 commandments first and I won a bible, which was very very dear to me. I still have the remains of it. Interesting what I could retain when I wanted to . I also was frightened to stand before a crowd and still am in fact. It would make me feel sick if I had to give a oral report! I would do my darndest to get out of that haha!

Now look at me you cant shut me up! But dont put me in a room with people and ask me to talk, u will find me slithering to the floor crawling out in any way I could!

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/18/02 at 20:15 (084511)

Tammie--

You know, I have a very strange relationship with stage fright. I can go onstage in a play and it doesn't bother me one bit. But my first day teaching class I was TERRIFIED! I still am, a little bit, when I get new kids--it takes a while for us all to get to know each other. My biggest day of teaching fear, though, was when I had to teach fellow teachers last month--talk about a tough crowd! And I think it's true that teachers really are the worst students--talking to each other, trying to do something else at the same time, not paying attention--just amazing!!

I absolutely hate to sing solo in front of people--my shower and my car are fine because nobody else is around. But talking isn't as hard anymore, especially if I'm in a play. Interestingly, I have a friend who will do a solo at the drop of a hat, but feels much more exposed onstage. We're the total opposite of each other in that regard.

I love the image of you slithering on the floor! I do know that feeling!! :)

Re: stage fright

Suzanne D on 5/18/02 at 20:46 (084520)

You are right, Nancy! I have sat in teachers' meetings and classes too numerous to count...And I have witnessed some behavior that I know those teachers would never put up with in their classes!

I have never talked to a group of teachers (I prefer the 8 years old and under crowd!), but I would be cringing at the thought!

I'd much rather write than speak in public.

And I mostly don't get nervous playing the piano (except at weddings), but would be terrified to sing a solo!

One daughter excelled in 4-H speeches, winning at the state level. My other daughter could not bear to give those speeches, but gets on stage with Youth Theater in the summer and sings and dances, and I am in awe.

Isn't it intersting about our abilities and talents?!

Suzanne :-)

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/18/02 at 20:53 (084521)

Suzanne--

I think speeches are harder for me than acting is--in a play, there are other things to watch, other people you're interacting with, and it gives you something else to focus on. I usually am a little nervous the first night, but after that, it is like falling off a log. But standing up to give a speech might still bother me. I really don't know since it's been so long since I had to do that!

I think I'd still rather write than do any of these things, but I haven't had any good ideas lately. :) Writing is still my first love.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

linda a on 5/19/02 at 00:43 (084537)

i just spent 2 hrs of going thru the post to see what has been happening on the support network . i know there have been apologies that have already been said to lisa K . i am very glad to hear that and also glad to hear about the support for people who may have a hard time w/ SP&G . the one thing that was not brought up is how medication affects how people think . sometimes you might be thinking of something to say or write , but it comes out a whole different way in what you thought it would . so , just beaware of the different disabilities out there in cyberspace . i was reading the post about the dictionary . we grew up also looking words up . this subject kind of got me laughing , because i have been learning a new game , SCRABLE . it is kind of fun to see what kind of words your friends put down on the board . i am learning all sorts of new words and i look up the definitions . i don't know how much i will be able to retain . ha ha !!! linda (Ky)

Re: stage fright

JudyS on 5/19/02 at 11:37 (084574)

That reminds me, Nen, we never did see that video tape of the play you wrote......

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/19/02 at 20:03 (084617)

And alas, Judy, you never will. The people who taped it had the incredible foresight and wisdom to tape over it before copies were made. All involved were extremely disappointed, especially because there were a lot of people who didn't make it to the show, and I had told those that I knew 'Oh, it's OK, they're taping it, so you can see it some other time.' Alas, alas....

Re: A ....... LOT of memories

john h on 5/20/02 at 09:49 (084661)

Valerie: After reading your post I will never forget a lot is not alot.

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/20/02 at 09:52 (084663)

Nancy: When Britanica first came out on a CD it cost $1000. It is now less than $100 and all updates are online.

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/20/02 at 18:33 (084709)

John--

I think the OED folks know that they have a cash cow on their hands, and are not likely to let anyone make them push their price down. Their dictionary is very different from almost every other, so they have that advantage as well.

Re: Very well said Judy.....(End of Message)

Necee on 5/15/02 at 01:07 (083979)

Necee

Re: On clarity

Julie on 5/15/02 at 01:55 (083984)

Judy, I have apologized to Lisa. Please see my post on the thread on the treatments board. I don't want to repeat myself too much.

It wasn't SPG I was on about, it was clarity. It's perfectly possible to be clear in one's thinking and keyboarding without being good at spelling, which, I agree, can be happily damned - as long as it's genuine shakiness in spelling. But when it's carelessness, when it's not bothering to hit the right keys or correct the results of landing on the wrong ones, then it becomes lack of consideration for others, because it wastes the time of those who really want to help, but who can't spend ALL their time deciphering mis-typed messages.

Yes, people who are frustrated by pain are entitled to patience. I have a good deal of that, as I think you realize. But it snapped yesterday. Apart from a great deal of time, I spend a small fortune on my internet connection, usually rather more than $100 a month. 90% of my on-line time is spent here on heelspurs.com, trying to help. That means reading posts carefully, and devoting a good deal of time and effort to making my own posts clear. My frustration yesterday at having to read a post slowly, four times, before giving up, was very great. I hope you can understand that.

Re: On clarity

Carole C in NOLA on 5/15/02 at 07:20 (083991)

Julie, don't feel bad. I very nearly began the same topic on the 'inserts, orthotics, shoes' board right before I went to the treatments and saw yours.

I don't think Julie or any of the regulars here are lacking in patience and caring towards others who are suffering with PF, because this is a shared experience. They've all been patient with me and with many others. Likewise, I hope that Lisa can have some patience with the rest of us and understands that the motivation here is communication.

I think the regulars here. including Julie, truly do want to help and sometimes just coming out and honestly presenting what the problem is, can help the person better than saying nothing while she writes post after post without adequate response.

Some of the regulars here seem to be able to get some meaning out of these posts than Julie and I can; I'm thinking of Paula who so kindly helped by 'translating' for me. If any of them can help out by responding more frequently to them, giving the rest of us a clue as to the topic, it is much appreciated.

Carole C

Carole C

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 10:17 (084008)

yes i agree judy. some of us are in so much pain that it is gruelling to post here and yet we need communication and support. and we should all remember that we need emotional support and kindness as much as we need information. in some cases maybe even more. the pain, the frustration of doctors and orthotics that never work for some of us, the lives we no longer have....sometimes i feel this board is all that keeps me going. and others may feel that way too. some people cannot express themselves clearly when they write. i will slog through and try to grasp it if i can. i'm in too much pain to worry about capitals , punctuation, typos, . i have to change positions constantly. those who can bear with posts such as mine, thank you. those who cannot due to eye strain or whatever, pass on. i will be the loser in not getting your feedback but at least i can be here and participate to the extent that i can. i am never insulted when folks ask for a better presentation, i am just concerned that others may be. remember, something like five percent of the american public read for pleasure! we can't expect everyone who posts here to be as well written as some are here. either due to pain or due to lack of education or due to dyslexia.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

Rich on 5/15/02 at 10:39 (084011)

Hello Paula....I was following this thread last night also. Your posts are quite clear to follow regardless of caps or not. Since we post here about our feet, we do not realize the difficulty some have with other illnesses. My feet may hurt, but my fingers still fly! Thank goodness you can come here at all! Keep posting....

Richelle

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:21 (084017)

yes i agree judy. some of us are in so much pain that it is gruelling to post here and yet we need communication and support. and we should all remember that we need emotional support and kindness as much as we need information. in some cases maybe even more. the pain, the frustration of doctors and orthotics that never work for some of us, the lives we no longer have....sometimes i feel this board is all that keeps me going. and others may feel that way too. some people cannot express themselves clearly when they write. i will slog through and try to grasp it if i can. i'm in too much pain to worry about capitals , punctuation, typos, . i have to change positions constantly. those who can bear with posts such as mine, thank you. those who cannot due to eye strain or whatever, pass on. i will be the loser in not getting your feedback but at least i can be here and participate to the extent that i can. i am never insulted when folks ask for a better presentation, i am just concerned that others may be. remember, something like five percent of the american public read for pleasure! we can't expect everyone who posts here to be as well written as some are here. either due to pain or due to lack of education or due to dyslexia.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:29 (084019)

julie i don't think what you did is bad and i dont' even think you needed to apologize. you just stated your opinion and your ideas and your way to help the situation. i had a whole other way of looking at these issues. that's all. are you the same julie who teaches us how to stretch? if so the stretch lessons have helped me a lot. thank you.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

paula on 5/15/02 at 11:34 (084022)

i think everyone in this discussion has been reasonable, polite, and a cut above the average. now, who *****ing needs me to ****ing interpret ozzy ***ing osbourne? :)

Re: Paula

Julie on 5/15/02 at 12:47 (084032)

Yes, Paula, and I am glad if anything I've ever said about stretching has helped you.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

Rick R on 5/15/02 at 21:37 (084098)

Paula,

After 45 years and two degrees, one with honors, I still can't spell worth a darned. I today's school environment, I would be culled from the herd and labeled with dyslexia. Back in my day, I was simply informed that I cared less than the other little darlings. What a hoot when it came to public speaking, that was sweet revenge! On behalf of my challenged brothers and sisters, I thank you for your understanding. We do not all share the same gifts.

kciR

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

john h on 5/16/02 at 16:44 (084194)

Rick: Maybe spelling is some sort of genetic thing. My spelling has always been #$%$#@! I am very good in the physical sciences and math but was not blessed with any sense of spelling. If I were writing a term paper or something important I would drag out the dictionary. Happy spelling all!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Carole C in NOLA on 5/16/02 at 18:02 (084212)

John, that brings back memories. :) My mother was a high school English teacher with three wild kids to raise. When I was reading and came across a word that I didn't know, sometimes I would ask her the meaning. No matter how simple the word, she would ask me what the dictionary definition was. I'd read it to her and we'd try making up examples using that word.

Pretty soon I was used to having the dictionary with me when I read for fun, so that I could look up words. That navy blue dictionary got a lot of use! Whenever I wrote anything for school, even homework in grade school, the dictionary was right at my elbow so I would check any spellings that seemed doubtful. What a great friend that dictionary was for me. It wasn't actually mine, but my mother quietly bought another and the navy blue one was always with me. I still have that dictionary. It has fallen apart from years of use, though.

I was always better in the physical sciences and math too, but I won my share of spelling bees and I owe that entirely to my sweet mother. She is a great deal like Suzanne in personality and in the way she teaches with love.

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Suzanne D on 5/16/02 at 18:48 (084217)

That was sweet of you to say, Carole. Thank you! My mother was very much like your mother with the habit of looking up words. She never told my sister and I directly how to spell anything, but told us to look it up in the dictionary. She also would get really excited about a new word we might hear or ask about. She would show such enthusiasm as she said, 'Let's look it up!'

As far as spelling goes, I do think it is partly genetic despite all the teaching we may have; I know my sister was much better than me in the sciences (and became an RN), while I was better in reading and spelling.

Thanks for helping me remember my mother tonight! :-)

Suzanne

Re: memories of a dictionary

wendyn on 5/16/02 at 20:19 (084223)

I look up words too!

Our CEO was giving a speech recently and he said something about 'A situation that was primed for defalcation' we all though he said DEFACATION.

It was funny at the time. But I know what defalcation means now!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/16/02 at 21:09 (084228)

I absolutely LOVE a good dictionary. My favorite is the Oxford English Dictionary, where you can get lost in the meanings AND the histories of the words. But even a regular American Heritage or Webster's is a great place for me to just get lost for a while--I find that I can open it intending to look up one word, then think of another, and that one will make me think of a few more... and before I know it, an hour has gone by. And all I've done is read the dictionary!

I know, I know, I'm a language geek. :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Carole C in NOLA on 5/16/02 at 21:42 (084234)

My navy blue dictionary that is in tatters right here in my hands, is Websters New Collegiate Dictionary. I remember feeling so intellectual using it as a little girl, because it was for college people! (grin)

It's my favorite. The Oxford is too big for me to snuggle up with when I'm reading in bed. On the other hand, I'll bet lots of people are smarter and don't do that. Their dictionaries are probably all in one piece!

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Suzanne D on 5/16/02 at 21:44 (084236)

I try to teach my first graders the value of understanding words and how helpful a dictionary can be. We have a classroom set of children's dictionaries, but now and then if we encounter a word that is not in them, we will march up the steps to the library and find it in the huge dictionary on the stand there. That makes a big impression, and everyone remembers what we found.

We sometimes have made lists on the board of all the word pairs we can find that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings - like herd and heard. They get excited about adding to the list. We read Amelia Bedelia books and giggle over how she mixes up the meanings of words.

I find that when I am enthusiastic about it, they catch the spirit, and I hope it helps to instill some life-long habits in them.

I'm a language 'geek', too, just on an elementary level! :-)

Suzanne

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 00:47 (084248)

i love it when people love dictionaries. i love all you dictionary lovers out there.

i keep a dictionary right next to the living room couch, and i end up using it almost every night -- sometimes because of a word i heard or saw during the day, and sometimes because my husband has a chronic but very creative & lovable tendency to make up words without realizing it.

when i was in fourth grade i took a special 'course' on looking things up, both in dictionaries and in encyclopedias. at the end, i received a most-impressive-looking certificate saying that i was a full-fledged member of the official 'Look It Up Club.' i was terribly proud of it, and i have it in some box of papers to this day. (don't laugh, but i had it hanging on the wall for fun up to about five years ago!)

nancy
(Sleepless in Old Orchard Beach, but it's my own fault because i took a six-hour nap that began at 6 p.m.)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 05:39 (084255)

Nancy--

Some of my best friends are language geeks :) (And by the way, this is not a pejorative use of the word 'geek'!!) I love the idea that you got a certificate for looking things up!!

My kinda-sorta-maybe boyfriend has a tendency to make up words, too, though his are a bit more deliberate. One of my favorite recent creations is 'hypotheoretically.' And the scary thing is, it made perfect sense to me when he first said it!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 05:41 (084256)

Yeah, the OED's 22 volumes are not terribly snuggly! I don't think the compact version would be, either. I'm not a dictionary snob, really--I appreciate both kinds for their varied benefits. It's the words, I'm interested in--gimme the WORDS, baby! :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

wendyn on 5/17/02 at 07:35 (084266)

I love 'hypotheoretically' - maybe I will have to use that!

There is one woman at work who hears a new word, and then she uses is it ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter if it really fits or not. If I her 'salient' more than 5 times in our meeting today, I'm going to run screaming from the room.

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 07:47 (084269)

nancy, i don't mind being a geek so long as it's in only one way. i too love 'hypotheoretically.' i don't know if i could fit it into a sentence unless i'd had an extra glass of wine, though!

one night phil came home and told me that while he was doing renovation work on a museum house that day some person kept coming by and talking to him. he can't work and talk at the same time and was very annoyed. he said this person got him all 'flubbergusted.'

nancy

Re: memories of a dictionary

Rich on 5/17/02 at 08:12 (084275)

Can I get on this bandwagon too? I love to read, even took a speed-reading course once. I too am a dictionary fan!

My favorite supervisor of all time loved to use the word 'paradigm'. He was really creative with it and others. During our weekly manager's meetings, we would all look around and smile (intelligently, amongst ourselves! LOL)then run back to our desk dictionaries! We would never admit to not knowing or understanding exactly what he was talking about!

P.S. I did all his proofreading...and his secretaries, too! I can be a geek too!

Richelle

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 08:50 (084282)

Directly in front of my computer is (1)Ninth edition of Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (2) Family Word Finder (4) Bartlett's Quotations (5) The Essential Researcher (6) The World Almanac (7)Emcyclopedia Britanica. I still spell poorly.

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:20 (084306)

Ahh, but you're well-read, John, and that makes all the difference. The one cancels out the other :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:22 (084307)

Wendy--the perfect solution would be to throw 'hypotheoretically' at this woman every time she uses 'salient.' If you convince her that it's a real word, the effects could be quite illuminating, if not downright hilarious!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 12:24 (084308)

'Hypotheoretically' does have a certain ring to it, doesn't it? I think I like the sound of it as much as anything else. (Boy, will he be surprised when I tell him this word is getting around on the internet!)

'Flubbergusted' is pretty good, too! Did you burst out laughing, or did you manage to restrain yourself? I'm not sure I'd have been able to keep from laughing, myself...

Oh, how I love language!! :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 13:46 (084318)

Hi. Another Dictionary-user here... hee hee.

I won the spelling bee 2 years in a row, and was awarded a dictionary each time (one red, one blue). One of them was signed by my principal, and oh boy am I ever proud of that one. It does not matter how casual the situation, if I am typing and not 100% sure, I LOOK IT UP... can't help myself.... hee hee... (and didn't anyone notice: it's grammar, not grammer... hee hee :P... sorry can't help it I said.)

One word you won't find in the dictionary though... gullible. I checked...it's not there... (??)

Val.

Re: A ....... LOT of memories

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 13:50 (084321)

Oh and one more thing... in my 11th grade grammar class, Mrs. Latham (our Mrs. McCracken... hee hee) would make anyone who wrote the word alot get up and write 'A' on one side of the blackboard, walk across to the other side and write 'LOT' ... you just have to watch one or two people do that 50 times before you remember that alot is not a word (and that would be a lot of walking back and forth if you had PF...)

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 15:42 (084348)

john, just look at how you mangled the 'encyclopaedia britannica.' your poor books! but i love you anyway! if spelling were a test of caring, my husband would be in big trouble. but actually, having been forced for so long by my editing career to be a real stickler, i'm very fond of his imaginative mistakes.

i do make sure to correct him when it matters, though -- like when he calls our friend Rolf 'Rold.' yikes.

nancy

Re: memories of a dictionary

nancy s. on 5/17/02 at 15:52 (084350)

nancy, i burst out laughing at 'flubbergusted.' i couldn't help it. i can't help it most of the time, and he's used to it; in fact, he laughs now too. fortunately i think he's happy to amuse me no matter what it takes. and i probably have more flaws to poke fun at than he does.

we got over being sensitive about these things, oh, about seven years into our thirteen-year relationship. it was worth it!

nancy

Re: The Love of Words!

Janet C on 5/17/02 at 17:46 (084364)

I used to read the dictionary, too! Today, I not only keep a dicionary and a thesaurus by my computer, I often use the Web site:

http://www.dictionary.com/

Valerie, I found gullible in my dictionary!

It reads: gul li ble (adj.) easily deceived or cheated.

It's in the online dictionary, too.

~ Janet

Re: Gullible

Valerie S on 5/17/02 at 18:56 (084373)

HA HA HA !!! ...

I think it says: gul li ble (noun) Janet C.

HA HA HA !!!

Sorry, it's an old one... and I fell for it once too! hee hee hee...

It's even funnier you looked it up twice :)

^.^
\_/

Val.

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 18:59 (084374)

Nancy N: One of my early reading experiences: My mother and father left town and left me in care of a Minister. I asked him to bring me a comic book when he left one morning expecting Superman or Batman. He brought me a comic book ' The Story of Jesus'. I think I was about 7 years old but I have not forgotten. Yes I did read it and look at the pictures!

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 19:01 (084376)

Valerie: The thought of a spelling bee makes me break out in a cold sweat!!!! I could stand up and brief the Wing Commander daily but a spelling bee---no way jose!

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:11 (084378)

Nancy--if you are both able to laugh about it, you are light years ahead of most of us. I think that's great. People who make me laugh always get my attention ;)

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/17/02 at 19:13 (084381)

Nancy: I just this week upgraded my encyclopedia Briticana to the CD version. Only 2 CD's is that unreal or what?

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:16 (084382)

I won my 6th-grade spelling bee, which amazed me. I was at the end of the long line of fellow 6th-graders, and watched in wonder as the word 'accommodate' felled everyone up to me. We're talking about at least ten or fifteen kids here. I had figured it out long before they got to me because all the other variation had been tried! Process of elimination got me that one, because I don't think I had any better idea of how to spell that word than anyone else. But I could remember the previous mispellings and go from there.

Actually, now that I think about it, the runner-up and I were supposed to be taken to dinner as our prize. I remember our teacher, Mr. Pflaum (now THERE'S a name!) telling us what our options are. And yet, somehow, it never happened. I wonder if I could collect, all these years later?

I got stage fright after that, and always deliberately screwed up in the middle school bee so I wouldn't have to stand in front of the whole school and try to spell something. A friend of mine made it to the state bee, though, and got stuck on 'panache.' Oh well :)

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/17/02 at 19:46 (084383)

John:

I think you can get the 22-volume OED on CD these days, but it's REALLY expensive. :)

Re: Gullible

Janet C on 5/17/02 at 22:07 (084406)

Hahaha! Got me!

Re: Gullible IS THERE

Carol C on 5/18/02 at 13:36 (084454)

One word you won't find in the dictionary though... gullible. I checked...it's not there... (??)

What dictonary are you using? The following is from WEBSTER' Online...

Main Entry: gull·ible
Variant(s): also gull.able /'g&-l&-b&l/
Function: adjective
Date: 1818
: easily duped or cheated
- gull·ibil·i·ty /'g&-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- gull·ibly /'g&-l&-blE/ adverb

Pronunciation Key

Re: Gullible IS THERE

Carole C in NOLA on 5/18/02 at 14:05 (084456)

Hi, Carol! I haven't seen you post in a while.

I think the 'gullible' thing was a joke. Read the other posts, and you'll see. :)

How have you been feeling?

Carole C

Re: memories of a dictionary

Tammie on 5/18/02 at 17:49 (084481)

That is great Nancy I could never do that lol! But In sunday school I remembered the 10 commandments first and I won a bible, which was very very dear to me. I still have the remains of it. Interesting what I could retain when I wanted to . I also was frightened to stand before a crowd and still am in fact. It would make me feel sick if I had to give a oral report! I would do my darndest to get out of that haha!

Now look at me you cant shut me up! But dont put me in a room with people and ask me to talk, u will find me slithering to the floor crawling out in any way I could!

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/18/02 at 20:15 (084511)

Tammie--

You know, I have a very strange relationship with stage fright. I can go onstage in a play and it doesn't bother me one bit. But my first day teaching class I was TERRIFIED! I still am, a little bit, when I get new kids--it takes a while for us all to get to know each other. My biggest day of teaching fear, though, was when I had to teach fellow teachers last month--talk about a tough crowd! And I think it's true that teachers really are the worst students--talking to each other, trying to do something else at the same time, not paying attention--just amazing!!

I absolutely hate to sing solo in front of people--my shower and my car are fine because nobody else is around. But talking isn't as hard anymore, especially if I'm in a play. Interestingly, I have a friend who will do a solo at the drop of a hat, but feels much more exposed onstage. We're the total opposite of each other in that regard.

I love the image of you slithering on the floor! I do know that feeling!! :)

Re: stage fright

Suzanne D on 5/18/02 at 20:46 (084520)

You are right, Nancy! I have sat in teachers' meetings and classes too numerous to count...And I have witnessed some behavior that I know those teachers would never put up with in their classes!

I have never talked to a group of teachers (I prefer the 8 years old and under crowd!), but I would be cringing at the thought!

I'd much rather write than speak in public.

And I mostly don't get nervous playing the piano (except at weddings), but would be terrified to sing a solo!

One daughter excelled in 4-H speeches, winning at the state level. My other daughter could not bear to give those speeches, but gets on stage with Youth Theater in the summer and sings and dances, and I am in awe.

Isn't it intersting about our abilities and talents?!

Suzanne :-)

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/18/02 at 20:53 (084521)

Suzanne--

I think speeches are harder for me than acting is--in a play, there are other things to watch, other people you're interacting with, and it gives you something else to focus on. I usually am a little nervous the first night, but after that, it is like falling off a log. But standing up to give a speech might still bother me. I really don't know since it's been so long since I had to do that!

I think I'd still rather write than do any of these things, but I haven't had any good ideas lately. :) Writing is still my first love.

Re: On spelling, grammer and punctuation

linda a on 5/19/02 at 00:43 (084537)

i just spent 2 hrs of going thru the post to see what has been happening on the support network . i know there have been apologies that have already been said to lisa K . i am very glad to hear that and also glad to hear about the support for people who may have a hard time w/ SP&G . the one thing that was not brought up is how medication affects how people think . sometimes you might be thinking of something to say or write , but it comes out a whole different way in what you thought it would . so , just beaware of the different disabilities out there in cyberspace . i was reading the post about the dictionary . we grew up also looking words up . this subject kind of got me laughing , because i have been learning a new game , SCRABLE . it is kind of fun to see what kind of words your friends put down on the board . i am learning all sorts of new words and i look up the definitions . i don't know how much i will be able to retain . ha ha !!! linda (Ky)

Re: stage fright

JudyS on 5/19/02 at 11:37 (084574)

That reminds me, Nen, we never did see that video tape of the play you wrote......

Re: stage fright

Nancy N on 5/19/02 at 20:03 (084617)

And alas, Judy, you never will. The people who taped it had the incredible foresight and wisdom to tape over it before copies were made. All involved were extremely disappointed, especially because there were a lot of people who didn't make it to the show, and I had told those that I knew 'Oh, it's OK, they're taping it, so you can see it some other time.' Alas, alas....

Re: A ....... LOT of memories

john h on 5/20/02 at 09:49 (084661)

Valerie: After reading your post I will never forget a lot is not alot.

Re: memories of a dictionary

john h on 5/20/02 at 09:52 (084663)

Nancy: When Britanica first came out on a CD it cost $1000. It is now less than $100 and all updates are online.

Re: memories of a dictionary

Nancy N on 5/20/02 at 18:33 (084709)

John--

I think the OED folks know that they have a cash cow on their hands, and are not likely to let anyone make them push their price down. Their dictionary is very different from almost every other, so they have that advantage as well.