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DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Posted by Nigel B on 5/30/02 at 08:00 (085736)

Doctors-does ice actively treat the fascia by alteration of blood flow etc or is it just good whilst the numb feeling lasts? _I would love to know the answer

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/30/02 at 08:41 (085748)

Nigel, I'm not a foot doctor. However I feel that icing helps my PF. I feel that the benefit from icing lasts after my foot warms up and on into the next day.

I'm not sure why that is. Maybe the inflammation just doesn't return when my foot warms up.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Nigel B on 5/30/02 at 10:29 (085759)

Carole,thanks for the reply
Nigel

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

paula on 5/30/02 at 16:53 (085817)

long ago i seem to recall one of the docs saying here that ice had a good effect on collagen healing. docs?

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 5/30/02 at 17:37 (085829)

For me it lasts only a short while, especially if I continue on my feet right after. Today I just got some Ibuprofen cream and I am trying that in conjunction with the ice. We'll see.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C on 5/30/02 at 23:11 (085871)

Carolyn, I have some ideas that might (or might not) help icing to work better for you. If not you, then maybe this could help somebody out there?

For my first few months of PF, when I tried icing I found it was not much help. I was putting ice cubes in a ziplock and putting my foot on that for ten minutes or so. But then later, when my PF was well on its way to healing, I read a post by John H about how great ice was. That persuaded me to try different icing methods and that helped a lot.

What I do now is to use a bag of frozen peas, because that conforms to my entire foot, and to leave my foot on it as long as I can without undue pain during a full half hour. For me, that's about five minutes on and a minute off, more or less, repeated for the full half hour. Most people can bear longer times but even these repeated five minute intervals seem to do the trick. Afterwards I wait until my foot has returned to normal temperature before standing. Often I ice right before bedtime, so I don't walk much afterwards.

The difference (to me) is phenomenal! It went from not helping a bit, to being a big part of my conservative treatment. I hope this helps. Now that I've talked about it, I'd better to DO it since my feet need it tonight.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 5/31/02 at 09:52 (085888)

Carole, I already use the frozen bag of peas, I think I got that tip a while ago reading another one of your posts. I usually use it fot ten minutes straight and then a little bit after that. If I can take it more that ten minutes straight, do you think that that is ok/safe? Last nite was my first nite to use the Ibufrofen cream in conjuction with my usual foot massage from my husband. I also took two aleve at dinner time. I had my annual today and my doctor said if Relefena and Celebrex are not doing anything, try aleve. Today on a scale of 1-10 yesterday I was a 8 today I am a 6. I am going to combine the ice today too and seehow it all adds up tomarrow. I do know that these things will never get me to avoid the ESWT procedure, but they do help. Thanks for your imput. I hope my info helps others to. We PF-ers need to stick together - ya know!

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Nigel B on 5/31/02 at 11:15 (085905)

Whilst amongst friends can I ask do any of you have PF pains on various points on the SOLE of the foot and do you know anybody who has got over that (obv cannot inject those areas)? Using this site really helps-from England-hope that doesnt put anybody off!

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/31/02 at 13:58 (085912)

Carolyn, I am not sure how long it is ok/safe, but I would think that you could do it longer than 10 minutes. Don't risk getting frostbite, though. Watch the color of your foot and don't let it get to hurting too badly from the cold. Also, I would urge you not to stop until you have been icing your foot (on and off, of course) for at LEAST a half hour. When I take my foot off the bag of peas, I only keep it off for a minute or so until I feel like I can do it again; I don't let it completely warm up for five minutes or so. If you are in a lot of pain, you might want to ice on and off like this for a couple of different half hour sessions the first day.

I know this long icing probably seems like an unnecessarily aggressive approach, but it seems to take a longer time for me than five or ten minutes if I'm going to get good results.

John might have some ideas. He posted once that icing was the only treatment that seemed to help everyone, and I contested that. After reading and rereading what everybody said about that, it looked to me like he was right! So I started icing on and off for longer (during entire TV shows, for example) and for me that was really the key.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/31/02 at 14:39 (085916)

Oh yes! The entire bottom of my feet ached and burned due to PF, except for the toes, when it was at its worst last December and January. The lateral side of the bottom of my foot was especially painful. So was the arch area, and my heels. The burning sensations were unnerving because I didn't know what they were. Besides the burning, there was both bruise-like pain and sharper knife-like pain, intense tearing sensations in my arches, and a low level aching that just wouldn't quit and wore me down.

I got over those pains and consider myself to be almost completely healed, and I am able to live my life once again. The healing I've experienced was due to using conservative treatments such as those discussed in the heel pain book on this site, and like people discuss here on the board... gentle non-weightbearing (sitting) stretching, icing, rest, rest, more rest, and never standing or taking a single step without my custom orthotics or Birkenstocks (even in the shower!), and more.

A lot of people who post here are from England, like you. Welcome and I hope the message board helps at this difficult time for you.

I presently live in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

nancy s. on 5/31/02 at 15:46 (085924)

hi nigel, no, your being from england most certainly wouldn't put anybody off! we have / have had people on here from england, sweden, france, germany, australia, canada, you name it. it's an international site, to help people with foot pain the world over. i'm not the webmaster, but i'm positive i can speak for him (sc0tt) on this. you're most welcome here!

did you start out with pf pains at various points on the sole of the foot, or have they developed since you first got pf? just from a layperson's point of view, i can tell you that i developed all sorts of pains on various areas of the foot, mostly i believe from 'walking funny' for a while after pf hit. so this might be the case, if your pf has gone untreated for a while (i don't know your history).

if you have had different pains from the beginning, you might want to post about this in detail to the doctors. but i do know that while classic pf has that hot-spot searing pain on the heel, plenty of people have non-classic symptoms, or additional symptoms, still with the diagnosis of pf. it has a way of throwing plenty out of kilter.

nancy

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 5/31/02 at 16:31 (085935)

Dear Nancy and Carole-thanks for your advice-I live in the North Of England near the Yorkshire Dales-I have hiked since a child but developed PF after 18 months of squash-didnt diagnose it and carried on playing for a year-gave up 18m ago but only stopped hiking 2 months ago-now the pain is mainly in the heels but patches of 'wooden-like' inflammation on the soles of the feet-I find this site and all your comments really helpful-it seems impossible to find Birks in the U.K but I am resting stretching and icing-resting has helped a lot but I sometimes have low days when I think the problem is for life-surely people get better even after 2 yrs?? My family is getting bored so the site is a great comfort-the friendly open attitude of Americans is a joy to read.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Carole C on 5/31/02 at 22:12 (085967)

Birkenstocks are a German shoe. There's a Birkenstock store in London, but I do not know if there is one within driving distance of you because I don't know where you are. If you cannot get to such a store, then you can click on the blue word'Birkenstock' in this post. That will take you to the German site that sells them online. Their prices are very low, and delivery time should be shorter for you than for delivery to the U.S. The Birkenstock that seems to be the most popular among PF users is the 'Arizona' style, which is worn by both men and women.

Keep doing the things that help! Resting was a big help for me, too. Yes, you can fully recover after two years. My guess is that it will take several months, however.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

nancy s. on 6/01/02 at 00:00 (085976)

nigel, carole is right -- you most certainly can recover after two years. having gone untreated for a lot of that time, you may find that it'll take you a while, but don't lose heart. the vast majority of folks do recover. i find that my feet need a little managing still -- i try to pay attention to them and not overdo it, and take extra care of them if i do (rest, elevate, ice).

i'm very glad that you're resting. it does help most cases and was a crucial part of my own improvement. yes, it's boring, and can try one's patience greatly, but it's important. it's also difficult for a family to understand this condition -- they're getting restless, eh? try having them read scott's heel pain book; it made all the difference when my husband did that and gained a real understanding of pf. while you're resting, do everything you can think of to keep your spirits up! read good books, have people over to visit, etc. -- stick with all parts of LIFE you can.

i hope you're doing only non-weight-bearing stretches at this point?

birks were the first big thing that began to help me. they aren't for everyone, but it seems the majority of people with pf experience significant improvement with them. (i rarely wear anything else now.) if you can't get to any birks store, go to the german site, as carole suggested. it's better if you can get fitted in person, but if you can't do that, just do the best you can by following the fitting instructions on the german site and try the arizonas -- they seem to be most people's favorite (mine are bostons and tatamis, however).

good luck, nigel, and please do hang around this site both for support and for treatment education. i don't know what i would have done without it!

nancy

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 6/01/02 at 02:31 (085986)

Thankyou once again Nancy and Carole-I'll try on-line for Arizonas.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 6/01/02 at 09:47 (085993)

Just bought some Birks Arizonas (from newcastle-Upon-Tyne!)-they feel comfy on the heel but did you find that they hurt the base of the toes at the metatarsal heads??-the assisstant said that the cork would soften and mold to my feet-is that your experience??

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Carole C in NOLA on 6/01/02 at 10:21 (085997)

Yes, it does mold to your foot.

You shouldn't wear them more than an hour or so the first day, and then increase a half hour a day for the next few days, in order to break them in slowly. That should help.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

PaulF on 6/01/02 at 15:40 (086025)

For me the key is to use a frozen gel pack. You can find them at many pharmacies. Some of them are the kind that can be heated or frozen. It works the same as a bag of peas, conforming to your heels. I ice for 10-15 minutes at a time, leaving 2 hours between icings. It really helps keep the inflammation down, especially for days when I'm on my feet a lot.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 6/02/02 at 08:23 (086061)

The biggest problem for me is that I am a waitress, and i am on my feet for 7-9 hours a day, with no opportunity to ice or rests inbetween. by the time I come home around 1:00 a.m. i just want to go to bed. I try to do a treament before work and rub in some Ibuprofen cream. that helps a little , but after 2-3 hours they start to burn. I'm not sure there is anything I can do while I'm working. I forgot i do do a towel stretch every now and then, but thats about it. I am open for any suggestions that may help me get through the shift. Thanks

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

juliann c. on 6/03/02 at 09:36 (086137)

i was wondering how long after the injuury should i continue with the ice. when if ever should i introduce heat? pls respond...

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

monte on 6/04/02 at 09:58 (086246)

Carole

can i write to you via e-mail? I have questions for you regarding this PF monster. Our symptoms sound similar.
Thanks...Monte

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 6/04/02 at 17:59 (086288)

Sure, Monte. Write me at (email removed) or if you'd rather, I'm on AOL instant messenger as CLCinNOLA

Carole C

Re: monte

Carole C in NOLA on 6/04/02 at 18:31 (086295)

I forgot to mention that I am not one of these people that checks my e-mail every five minutes. I get to it a couple of times a week, never more than once a day. But I'd be glad to talk to you. I really do feel that you can get through this PF somehow. Maybe we can figure out how.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/30/02 at 08:41 (085748)

Nigel, I'm not a foot doctor. However I feel that icing helps my PF. I feel that the benefit from icing lasts after my foot warms up and on into the next day.

I'm not sure why that is. Maybe the inflammation just doesn't return when my foot warms up.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Nigel B on 5/30/02 at 10:29 (085759)

Carole,thanks for the reply
Nigel

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

paula on 5/30/02 at 16:53 (085817)

long ago i seem to recall one of the docs saying here that ice had a good effect on collagen healing. docs?

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 5/30/02 at 17:37 (085829)

For me it lasts only a short while, especially if I continue on my feet right after. Today I just got some Ibuprofen cream and I am trying that in conjunction with the ice. We'll see.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C on 5/30/02 at 23:11 (085871)

Carolyn, I have some ideas that might (or might not) help icing to work better for you. If not you, then maybe this could help somebody out there?

For my first few months of PF, when I tried icing I found it was not much help. I was putting ice cubes in a ziplock and putting my foot on that for ten minutes or so. But then later, when my PF was well on its way to healing, I read a post by John H about how great ice was. That persuaded me to try different icing methods and that helped a lot.

What I do now is to use a bag of frozen peas, because that conforms to my entire foot, and to leave my foot on it as long as I can without undue pain during a full half hour. For me, that's about five minutes on and a minute off, more or less, repeated for the full half hour. Most people can bear longer times but even these repeated five minute intervals seem to do the trick. Afterwards I wait until my foot has returned to normal temperature before standing. Often I ice right before bedtime, so I don't walk much afterwards.

The difference (to me) is phenomenal! It went from not helping a bit, to being a big part of my conservative treatment. I hope this helps. Now that I've talked about it, I'd better to DO it since my feet need it tonight.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 5/31/02 at 09:52 (085888)

Carole, I already use the frozen bag of peas, I think I got that tip a while ago reading another one of your posts. I usually use it fot ten minutes straight and then a little bit after that. If I can take it more that ten minutes straight, do you think that that is ok/safe? Last nite was my first nite to use the Ibufrofen cream in conjuction with my usual foot massage from my husband. I also took two aleve at dinner time. I had my annual today and my doctor said if Relefena and Celebrex are not doing anything, try aleve. Today on a scale of 1-10 yesterday I was a 8 today I am a 6. I am going to combine the ice today too and seehow it all adds up tomarrow. I do know that these things will never get me to avoid the ESWT procedure, but they do help. Thanks for your imput. I hope my info helps others to. We PF-ers need to stick together - ya know!

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Nigel B on 5/31/02 at 11:15 (085905)

Whilst amongst friends can I ask do any of you have PF pains on various points on the SOLE of the foot and do you know anybody who has got over that (obv cannot inject those areas)? Using this site really helps-from England-hope that doesnt put anybody off!

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/31/02 at 13:58 (085912)

Carolyn, I am not sure how long it is ok/safe, but I would think that you could do it longer than 10 minutes. Don't risk getting frostbite, though. Watch the color of your foot and don't let it get to hurting too badly from the cold. Also, I would urge you not to stop until you have been icing your foot (on and off, of course) for at LEAST a half hour. When I take my foot off the bag of peas, I only keep it off for a minute or so until I feel like I can do it again; I don't let it completely warm up for five minutes or so. If you are in a lot of pain, you might want to ice on and off like this for a couple of different half hour sessions the first day.

I know this long icing probably seems like an unnecessarily aggressive approach, but it seems to take a longer time for me than five or ten minutes if I'm going to get good results.

John might have some ideas. He posted once that icing was the only treatment that seemed to help everyone, and I contested that. After reading and rereading what everybody said about that, it looked to me like he was right! So I started icing on and off for longer (during entire TV shows, for example) and for me that was really the key.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 5/31/02 at 14:39 (085916)

Oh yes! The entire bottom of my feet ached and burned due to PF, except for the toes, when it was at its worst last December and January. The lateral side of the bottom of my foot was especially painful. So was the arch area, and my heels. The burning sensations were unnerving because I didn't know what they were. Besides the burning, there was both bruise-like pain and sharper knife-like pain, intense tearing sensations in my arches, and a low level aching that just wouldn't quit and wore me down.

I got over those pains and consider myself to be almost completely healed, and I am able to live my life once again. The healing I've experienced was due to using conservative treatments such as those discussed in the heel pain book on this site, and like people discuss here on the board... gentle non-weightbearing (sitting) stretching, icing, rest, rest, more rest, and never standing or taking a single step without my custom orthotics or Birkenstocks (even in the shower!), and more.

A lot of people who post here are from England, like you. Welcome and I hope the message board helps at this difficult time for you.

I presently live in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

nancy s. on 5/31/02 at 15:46 (085924)

hi nigel, no, your being from england most certainly wouldn't put anybody off! we have / have had people on here from england, sweden, france, germany, australia, canada, you name it. it's an international site, to help people with foot pain the world over. i'm not the webmaster, but i'm positive i can speak for him (sc0tt) on this. you're most welcome here!

did you start out with pf pains at various points on the sole of the foot, or have they developed since you first got pf? just from a layperson's point of view, i can tell you that i developed all sorts of pains on various areas of the foot, mostly i believe from 'walking funny' for a while after pf hit. so this might be the case, if your pf has gone untreated for a while (i don't know your history).

if you have had different pains from the beginning, you might want to post about this in detail to the doctors. but i do know that while classic pf has that hot-spot searing pain on the heel, plenty of people have non-classic symptoms, or additional symptoms, still with the diagnosis of pf. it has a way of throwing plenty out of kilter.

nancy

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 5/31/02 at 16:31 (085935)

Dear Nancy and Carole-thanks for your advice-I live in the North Of England near the Yorkshire Dales-I have hiked since a child but developed PF after 18 months of squash-didnt diagnose it and carried on playing for a year-gave up 18m ago but only stopped hiking 2 months ago-now the pain is mainly in the heels but patches of 'wooden-like' inflammation on the soles of the feet-I find this site and all your comments really helpful-it seems impossible to find Birks in the U.K but I am resting stretching and icing-resting has helped a lot but I sometimes have low days when I think the problem is for life-surely people get better even after 2 yrs?? My family is getting bored so the site is a great comfort-the friendly open attitude of Americans is a joy to read.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Carole C on 5/31/02 at 22:12 (085967)

Birkenstocks are a German shoe. There's a Birkenstock store in London, but I do not know if there is one within driving distance of you because I don't know where you are. If you cannot get to such a store, then you can click on the blue word'Birkenstock' in this post. That will take you to the German site that sells them online. Their prices are very low, and delivery time should be shorter for you than for delivery to the U.S. The Birkenstock that seems to be the most popular among PF users is the 'Arizona' style, which is worn by both men and women.

Keep doing the things that help! Resting was a big help for me, too. Yes, you can fully recover after two years. My guess is that it will take several months, however.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

nancy s. on 6/01/02 at 00:00 (085976)

nigel, carole is right -- you most certainly can recover after two years. having gone untreated for a lot of that time, you may find that it'll take you a while, but don't lose heart. the vast majority of folks do recover. i find that my feet need a little managing still -- i try to pay attention to them and not overdo it, and take extra care of them if i do (rest, elevate, ice).

i'm very glad that you're resting. it does help most cases and was a crucial part of my own improvement. yes, it's boring, and can try one's patience greatly, but it's important. it's also difficult for a family to understand this condition -- they're getting restless, eh? try having them read scott's heel pain book; it made all the difference when my husband did that and gained a real understanding of pf. while you're resting, do everything you can think of to keep your spirits up! read good books, have people over to visit, etc. -- stick with all parts of LIFE you can.

i hope you're doing only non-weight-bearing stretches at this point?

birks were the first big thing that began to help me. they aren't for everyone, but it seems the majority of people with pf experience significant improvement with them. (i rarely wear anything else now.) if you can't get to any birks store, go to the german site, as carole suggested. it's better if you can get fitted in person, but if you can't do that, just do the best you can by following the fitting instructions on the german site and try the arizonas -- they seem to be most people's favorite (mine are bostons and tatamis, however).

good luck, nigel, and please do hang around this site both for support and for treatment education. i don't know what i would have done without it!

nancy

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 6/01/02 at 02:31 (085986)

Thankyou once again Nancy and Carole-I'll try on-line for Arizonas.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Nigel B on 6/01/02 at 09:47 (085993)

Just bought some Birks Arizonas (from newcastle-Upon-Tyne!)-they feel comfy on the heel but did you find that they hurt the base of the toes at the metatarsal heads??-the assisstant said that the cork would soften and mold to my feet-is that your experience??

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB -- to nigel

Carole C in NOLA on 6/01/02 at 10:21 (085997)

Yes, it does mold to your foot.

You shouldn't wear them more than an hour or so the first day, and then increase a half hour a day for the next few days, in order to break them in slowly. That should help.

Carole C

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

PaulF on 6/01/02 at 15:40 (086025)

For me the key is to use a frozen gel pack. You can find them at many pharmacies. Some of them are the kind that can be heated or frozen. It works the same as a bag of peas, conforming to your heels. I ice for 10-15 minutes at a time, leaving 2 hours between icings. It really helps keep the inflammation down, especially for days when I'm on my feet a lot.

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carolyn F. on 6/02/02 at 08:23 (086061)

The biggest problem for me is that I am a waitress, and i am on my feet for 7-9 hours a day, with no opportunity to ice or rests inbetween. by the time I come home around 1:00 a.m. i just want to go to bed. I try to do a treament before work and rub in some Ibuprofen cream. that helps a little , but after 2-3 hours they start to burn. I'm not sure there is anything I can do while I'm working. I forgot i do do a towel stretch every now and then, but thats about it. I am open for any suggestions that may help me get through the shift. Thanks

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

juliann c. on 6/03/02 at 09:36 (086137)

i was wondering how long after the injuury should i continue with the ice. when if ever should i introduce heat? pls respond...

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

monte on 6/04/02 at 09:58 (086246)

Carole

can i write to you via e-mail? I have questions for you regarding this PF monster. Our symptoms sound similar.
Thanks...Monte

Re: DOES ICE TREAT OR JUST NUMB

Carole C in NOLA on 6/04/02 at 17:59 (086288)

Sure, Monte. Write me at (email removed) or if you'd rather, I'm on AOL instant messenger as CLCinNOLA

Carole C

Re: monte

Carole C in NOLA on 6/04/02 at 18:31 (086295)

I forgot to mention that I am not one of these people that checks my e-mail every five minutes. I get to it a couple of times a week, never more than once a day. But I'd be glad to talk to you. I really do feel that you can get through this PF somehow. Maybe we can figure out how.

Carole C