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Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Posted by Peg P. on 7/11/02 at 12:31 (089476)

Hi, I've had a Morton's Neuroma that is healing pretty good. On and off I've been experiencing some pain in my ankles and tightness in the calf area -- up my leg. I notices my knee is effected as well. The nerve along my ankle bone also effects my third toe -- neuroma. The chiropractor I was seeing used to pull on my ankles so I stopped seeing him. This made it worse. I know you mentioned something about a metatarsal fracture and/or ankle fracture. Could this be possible? Or is it due to my chiropractor's work. And how would I definitely know that it could be a fracture? I don't have excrutiating pain at all. It comes and go. Also, would you recommend finding a new chiropractor or just finding a good physical therapist who works on lower extremities for my neuroma.
Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

R C on 7/12/02 at 08:38 (089529)

I'm not a doctor, but I have lots of experience as a patient and informed consumer. I urge you to check out a web site http://www.chirowatch.com , and any of the relevant articles it is linked to. Bottom line: There is no scientific basis for anything that chiropractors do, with the single exception that it helps relieve lower back pain in a significant minority of cases. All the blather about subluxations interfering with nerve transmissions is nothing but 19th century speculation, and has been thoroughly debunked. And don't let them touch your neck -- there is a risk of stroke associated with neck manipulations.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Kathy G on 7/12/02 at 13:38 (089561)

Peggy,

First of all, I'm not a doctor. Just a person with both a neuroma and PF.

I have always been an advocate of reasonable chiropractic medicine with the emphasis on reasonable. I, in fact, know of a woman who suffered a stroke after going to a chiropractor. He was not, however, what I would consider reasonable, in the least. My current chiropractor essentially 'blew me off' the last few times I went to him and I haven't gone back. He spent all of 10 minutes with me. He's a reasonable guy but he also is someone who wants to fix something so that it's not going to come back. I think he's given up in disgust because nothing he does seems to fix me. I also think he takes me for granted. I'm a long-time patient and he figures if he's running behind, he can make up the time by spending less time with me, because I'll always come back. WRONG!

One thing that he never did was touch my feet. He did massage my calf once and told me to have my husband do the same when it's in spasm. I have never gone to him about my feet but with assorted back and neck problems. He helped a problem with my rotator calf incredibly!

I didn't have good luck with PT with regard to my neuroma. My neuroma hadn't hurt for a long time and with her manipulation, it started to hurt again. She insisted on rubbing, hard, on the area of the neuroma saying she was breaking up the tissue. I had to be very forceful in order to get her to stop. So, I guess, my advice would be to get yourself to a good Podiatrist and have whatever tests he/she recommends in order to rule out a fracture of some kind.

Dr. Z is on vacation but maybe one of the other doctors will respond and will certainly be of more help than I.

Good Luck!

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 14:55 (089563)

Thank you for the info, however, the one I was seeing did pop/manipulate my neck as well. I am glad I'm not going to him any longer, from the info you gave me. And he is supposed to be a well known chiro too who works on dancers, rugby stars, etc. Very frustrating.

I'd better do a more detailed search.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 14:58 (089564)

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your input as well. All of this talk of chiros -- and a stroke has made me nervous. Particularly the neck area where he did touch. I am going back to my pod next week. I think I'll stick with him for awhile.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 15:06 (089566)

I just read that article about the neck manipulations causing 150 deaths per year! Why hasen't this been a law to stop doing this then? I don't even know if I want to find a new one. If I am that out of alignment as the one I was currently seeing said -- one hip higher -- causing one leg to be shorter so be it. But it makes me wonder now and the neck thing scares me.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

R C on 7/12/02 at 21:43 (089589)

The whole song and danceabout one leg being longer than the other is a well established marketing ploy. There have been studies in which a subject is taken to see a series of chiropractors, only to be told thatthe right leg is longer by some, and the left leg is longer by others. Furthermore, when asked to read a given x-ray of the subject's spine, the answers given by the different chiropractors were so different as to be indistinguishable from complete chance (they were asked to locate the 'subluxations').

Chiropractic does not cure allergies. Chiropractic does not affect the immune system. Chiropractic cannot take the place of immunizations. Chiropractic does not promote health of the vital organs. None of the claims about subluxation theory are any more true today than when they were dreamed up by a medically ignorant and scientifically ignorant quack a hundred plusyears ago.

If you have chronic back pain, and nothing you've tried has helped, then you might see a chiropractor for a manipulation of the lower back. There is research that says it works about as well as anything else (including a placebo).

But don't take my word for it. Read the voluminous information out there -- much of it written by chiropractors with an interest in reform.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 22:59 (089592)

Thanks for the info. I appreciated all that.

Peggy

Re: Morton's & maybe Posterior Tibialis Tendonitis

Ron P. on 7/13/02 at 00:50 (089594)

Hi Peggy

Why don't you call Dr Kiper... his solution helped me. He will give you a free consultation for 10min or so. No surgery or long distances but the Silicone takes time ...2 weeks before you definitely feel it & 6 mo.s for full effect. Its worth a shot ... his # is 800 DRKIPER. Good Luck! Ron Sunnyvale CA

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Dr. David S. Wander on 7/13/02 at 18:40 (089613)

I don't want to get into a chiropractor bashing forum, but I do have a strong personal opinion. I would certainly recommend a physical therapist over a chiropractor for an ailment of the foot or ankle. In the past seventeen years that I've been in practice, I've sent hundreds of patients to physical therapists for a wide range of ailments, from plantar fasciitis, to post operative patients and have had significant success. I have not had the need to send any of my patients to a chiropractor for his/her foot ailment. I simply do not have confidence that a chiropractic treatment will offer my patients any benefit for a foot or ankle condition. Unfortunately, Morton's neuroma is not a condition that seems to respond very well to physical therapy. The usual treatment regimen consists of metatarsal pads, orthoses, change of shoes, cortisone injections, sclerosing injections or surgery. Good luck.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Donna SL on 7/14/02 at 17:02 (089639)

I don't want to get into a chiro forum either, but if it wasn't for my chiropractor, I don't know where I would be today. He practically cured me of TTS, and PF by using a technique called Active release technique (ART), along with some occasional foot, and ankle adjustments that also took pressure of the foot, and ankle area. He also knocked out a neuroma in my left forefoot. ART is a tremendous treatment for most nerve entrapements in soft tissue. He also took care of many soft tissue problems in other bits of my feet, ankles, calves, etc . He helped free my lower extremities, hips, and lumbar back from pain too, that had developed over time as the result of chronic foot pain that I had suffered from for over 2 years before I had found him.

I had almost every traditional PT modality for close to a year at various institutions, and they did practically nothihg!!

I have clinical proof of my success with him backed up by NCV studies which before treatment with him were very positive for TTS bilaterally, and a recent NCV test showed normal conductivity. Of course this is reflected in the relief of my symptoms.

Before finding about about ART, my only options other than PT which failed was either cortisone shots, or surgery. I have had neither. Other than the ART which did over 90% of the cure, I had some acupuncture, and meds prescribed by a physiatrist which helped in addition, but most of it was due the my chiropractor. I only get some minor pain on occassion if I over use my feet which hopefully will resolve over time, or with some additional treatment. A little over a year ago I couldn't stand for more than 5 minutes without pain, and now I can walk, and stand for hours most days.

I can't speak for other chiros because he is the only one I've been treated by, but I see him as a godsend, and would recommend chiropractors over PT's any day if they are trained in ART. I know of 3 people personally now that I've referred to other chiros that have experienced similar results. Also many chiros offer traditional PT treatment in their office anyway and seem to have much more independent thought, creativity, and understanding in treating soft tissue injuries than most PT's I've met.

My chiro said there were two podiatrist at the last ART lower extremity seminar in SF. Hopefully more podiatrist will learn this technique to treat foot, and ankle problems, and have some interim treatment to offer patients before resorting to ESWT, or surgery if traditional therapies fail. Even if most pods take the course, and desire to not perform the ART themselves, and refer to practitioners who do they will have a better understanding of how powerful a treatment this is.

Donna

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

rose w. on 7/16/02 at 17:40 (089799)

donna: How many ART sessions did you have done before you began to feel relief?

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Donna SL on 7/16/02 at 20:27 (089816)

Rose,

I started to feel some relief of my symptoms after the very first session, and each week continued to see more improvement. I went for close to 10 months of ART , but I had a complicated case of TTS, and PF, and also some back, and hip problems and injuries, and other lower extremity problems too, so some time had to be devoted to those areas also. Not every session was for my feet. Every one is different, and they may not have nearly the problems that I did, and therefore require less time.

Of the three people I referred to for the ART so far in different cities two of them felt improvement of their symptoms pretty quickly, but the other one had no relief for a while and was ready to give up, but I encouraged him to stick with it, and he's starting to have some decent improvement now.

Donna

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

R C on 7/12/02 at 08:38 (089529)

I'm not a doctor, but I have lots of experience as a patient and informed consumer. I urge you to check out a web site http://www.chirowatch.com , and any of the relevant articles it is linked to. Bottom line: There is no scientific basis for anything that chiropractors do, with the single exception that it helps relieve lower back pain in a significant minority of cases. All the blather about subluxations interfering with nerve transmissions is nothing but 19th century speculation, and has been thoroughly debunked. And don't let them touch your neck -- there is a risk of stroke associated with neck manipulations.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Kathy G on 7/12/02 at 13:38 (089561)

Peggy,

First of all, I'm not a doctor. Just a person with both a neuroma and PF.

I have always been an advocate of reasonable chiropractic medicine with the emphasis on reasonable. I, in fact, know of a woman who suffered a stroke after going to a chiropractor. He was not, however, what I would consider reasonable, in the least. My current chiropractor essentially 'blew me off' the last few times I went to him and I haven't gone back. He spent all of 10 minutes with me. He's a reasonable guy but he also is someone who wants to fix something so that it's not going to come back. I think he's given up in disgust because nothing he does seems to fix me. I also think he takes me for granted. I'm a long-time patient and he figures if he's running behind, he can make up the time by spending less time with me, because I'll always come back. WRONG!

One thing that he never did was touch my feet. He did massage my calf once and told me to have my husband do the same when it's in spasm. I have never gone to him about my feet but with assorted back and neck problems. He helped a problem with my rotator calf incredibly!

I didn't have good luck with PT with regard to my neuroma. My neuroma hadn't hurt for a long time and with her manipulation, it started to hurt again. She insisted on rubbing, hard, on the area of the neuroma saying she was breaking up the tissue. I had to be very forceful in order to get her to stop. So, I guess, my advice would be to get yourself to a good Podiatrist and have whatever tests he/she recommends in order to rule out a fracture of some kind.

Dr. Z is on vacation but maybe one of the other doctors will respond and will certainly be of more help than I.

Good Luck!

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 14:55 (089563)

Thank you for the info, however, the one I was seeing did pop/manipulate my neck as well. I am glad I'm not going to him any longer, from the info you gave me. And he is supposed to be a well known chiro too who works on dancers, rugby stars, etc. Very frustrating.

I'd better do a more detailed search.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 14:58 (089564)

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your input as well. All of this talk of chiros -- and a stroke has made me nervous. Particularly the neck area where he did touch. I am going back to my pod next week. I think I'll stick with him for awhile.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 15:06 (089566)

I just read that article about the neck manipulations causing 150 deaths per year! Why hasen't this been a law to stop doing this then? I don't even know if I want to find a new one. If I am that out of alignment as the one I was currently seeing said -- one hip higher -- causing one leg to be shorter so be it. But it makes me wonder now and the neck thing scares me.

Peggy

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

R C on 7/12/02 at 21:43 (089589)

The whole song and danceabout one leg being longer than the other is a well established marketing ploy. There have been studies in which a subject is taken to see a series of chiropractors, only to be told thatthe right leg is longer by some, and the left leg is longer by others. Furthermore, when asked to read a given x-ray of the subject's spine, the answers given by the different chiropractors were so different as to be indistinguishable from complete chance (they were asked to locate the 'subluxations').

Chiropractic does not cure allergies. Chiropractic does not affect the immune system. Chiropractic cannot take the place of immunizations. Chiropractic does not promote health of the vital organs. None of the claims about subluxation theory are any more true today than when they were dreamed up by a medically ignorant and scientifically ignorant quack a hundred plusyears ago.

If you have chronic back pain, and nothing you've tried has helped, then you might see a chiropractor for a manipulation of the lower back. There is research that says it works about as well as anything else (including a placebo).

But don't take my word for it. Read the voluminous information out there -- much of it written by chiropractors with an interest in reform.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Peggy P. on 7/12/02 at 22:59 (089592)

Thanks for the info. I appreciated all that.

Peggy

Re: Morton's & maybe Posterior Tibialis Tendonitis

Ron P. on 7/13/02 at 00:50 (089594)

Hi Peggy

Why don't you call Dr Kiper... his solution helped me. He will give you a free consultation for 10min or so. No surgery or long distances but the Silicone takes time ...2 weeks before you definitely feel it & 6 mo.s for full effect. Its worth a shot ... his # is 800 DRKIPER. Good Luck! Ron Sunnyvale CA

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Dr. David S. Wander on 7/13/02 at 18:40 (089613)

I don't want to get into a chiropractor bashing forum, but I do have a strong personal opinion. I would certainly recommend a physical therapist over a chiropractor for an ailment of the foot or ankle. In the past seventeen years that I've been in practice, I've sent hundreds of patients to physical therapists for a wide range of ailments, from plantar fasciitis, to post operative patients and have had significant success. I have not had the need to send any of my patients to a chiropractor for his/her foot ailment. I simply do not have confidence that a chiropractic treatment will offer my patients any benefit for a foot or ankle condition. Unfortunately, Morton's neuroma is not a condition that seems to respond very well to physical therapy. The usual treatment regimen consists of metatarsal pads, orthoses, change of shoes, cortisone injections, sclerosing injections or surgery. Good luck.

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Donna SL on 7/14/02 at 17:02 (089639)

I don't want to get into a chiro forum either, but if it wasn't for my chiropractor, I don't know where I would be today. He practically cured me of TTS, and PF by using a technique called Active release technique (ART), along with some occasional foot, and ankle adjustments that also took pressure of the foot, and ankle area. He also knocked out a neuroma in my left forefoot. ART is a tremendous treatment for most nerve entrapements in soft tissue. He also took care of many soft tissue problems in other bits of my feet, ankles, calves, etc . He helped free my lower extremities, hips, and lumbar back from pain too, that had developed over time as the result of chronic foot pain that I had suffered from for over 2 years before I had found him.

I had almost every traditional PT modality for close to a year at various institutions, and they did practically nothihg!!

I have clinical proof of my success with him backed up by NCV studies which before treatment with him were very positive for TTS bilaterally, and a recent NCV test showed normal conductivity. Of course this is reflected in the relief of my symptoms.

Before finding about about ART, my only options other than PT which failed was either cortisone shots, or surgery. I have had neither. Other than the ART which did over 90% of the cure, I had some acupuncture, and meds prescribed by a physiatrist which helped in addition, but most of it was due the my chiropractor. I only get some minor pain on occassion if I over use my feet which hopefully will resolve over time, or with some additional treatment. A little over a year ago I couldn't stand for more than 5 minutes without pain, and now I can walk, and stand for hours most days.

I can't speak for other chiros because he is the only one I've been treated by, but I see him as a godsend, and would recommend chiropractors over PT's any day if they are trained in ART. I know of 3 people personally now that I've referred to other chiros that have experienced similar results. Also many chiros offer traditional PT treatment in their office anyway and seem to have much more independent thought, creativity, and understanding in treating soft tissue injuries than most PT's I've met.

My chiro said there were two podiatrist at the last ART lower extremity seminar in SF. Hopefully more podiatrist will learn this technique to treat foot, and ankle problems, and have some interim treatment to offer patients before resorting to ESWT, or surgery if traditional therapies fail. Even if most pods take the course, and desire to not perform the ART themselves, and refer to practitioners who do they will have a better understanding of how powerful a treatment this is.

Donna

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

rose w. on 7/16/02 at 17:40 (089799)

donna: How many ART sessions did you have done before you began to feel relief?

Re: Question for one of the docs: Physical Therapy and/or Chiropractor

Donna SL on 7/16/02 at 20:27 (089816)

Rose,

I started to feel some relief of my symptoms after the very first session, and each week continued to see more improvement. I went for close to 10 months of ART , but I had a complicated case of TTS, and PF, and also some back, and hip problems and injuries, and other lower extremity problems too, so some time had to be devoted to those areas also. Not every session was for my feet. Every one is different, and they may not have nearly the problems that I did, and therefore require less time.

Of the three people I referred to for the ART so far in different cities two of them felt improvement of their symptoms pretty quickly, but the other one had no relief for a while and was ready to give up, but I encouraged him to stick with it, and he's starting to have some decent improvement now.

Donna