Home The Book Dr Articles Products Message Boards Journal Articles Search Our Surveys Surgery ESWT Dr Messages Find Good Drs video

To Wander Re: Orthotics

Posted by Pauline on 8/01/02 at 08:56 (091256)

I'm moving the subject to the correct board. I have to disagree with your post that you give a 100% refund on the orthotics you prescribe. A 100 percent refund in this patient's mind does not put limits on the conditions the money will be refunded by the doctor as you seem to be doing.

Perhaps a trial period like Dr. Kiper, but unlike you he gives any patient their money back prior to a specific trial period. I've heard that he will also extend that trial period if he feels the patient may benefit with an extension.

He doesn't decide for the patient if they get their money back or not as you seem to indicate you do. Like QVC they get 100% refund, regardless of what he thinks, no questions asked.

Personally if I was thinking about orthotics, I'd try Dr. Kiper because your money comes back if you do not like them or cannot wear them. Now that's what I call a 100% no questions asked refund. At the cost of orthotics thats what it should be.

Maybe we should see how many Pod's family members have gotten stuck with ice scrapers they couldn't return and were out $200 + per pair everytime a doctor Rx'ed them.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

paula on 8/01/02 at 09:39 (091261)

well you know dr wander does give a refund in some cases and that is more than most will do. he also comes here and offers help and advice for free so let us give credit where credit is due. i think it is important to appreciate the doctors here who give their time. and pauline i do share your frustration as well. how about $1500 ice scraper pooper scoopers? that is only one of many useless orthotics for me.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Pauline on 8/01/02 at 15:28 (091295)

Paula,
I certainly appreciate all the doctors that come to this site. Ths discussion shouldn't be limited to only doctors on this site, instead we should all be questioning our doctors about orthotic refunds. In this particular discussion I am disagreeing with Dr. Wander post when he says that he gives a 100% refund. I disagree with that statement.

We've all put out lots of money on empty promises from orthotics, and I personally feel patients are owed a refund if the Rx product doesn't work.

This is a very expensive experment for the patient and they deserve respect in the form of a refund instead of the nasty looks that many receive when they complain after spending the money on a useless piece of hard plastic.

Not all cases turn out this way so that's more reason doctors should offer refunds.

I'm not picking on Dr. Wander but if he says he offer a 100% refund and then adds that he is the judge of whether the patients gets one or not that's not a QVC 100% no questions asked 100% refund to me. I'd call that a possible refund with strings attached. I feel he is saying if you fit certain criteria he will decide if you see some of your money refunded or not.

To me that's an important difference, and patients need to know this. They need to know what conditions allow for a 100% refund in his office or any other doctors office that does the same thing.

If a doctor tells me he will give me a 100% of my money back if the orthotics don't work then thats what I expect. I don't expect him to say later that I didn't qualify in his eyes for the refund. This would hold true for Dr. Wander or any doctor in my eyes.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/01/02 at 20:00 (091343)

Ok . I will give your money back. The check is in the mail. ( ha ha). I love these posts that are tough

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Pauline on 8/01/02 at 22:23 (091355)

The one thing I notice is when the tough questions are asked and the subjects get touchy a jesting post appears as an answer. Certainly easier than serious dialog.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/01/02 at 23:20 (091360)

or the poster ignores the questions both are very effective

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

Julie on 8/02/02 at 02:11 (091362)

Pauline, you've made many good points, as always. But I don't agree that Dr Wander's refund policy is as mean and conditional as you imply; reading his post I felt it was far and away superior to that of most doctors (if we're to judge by the 'useless ice-scraper' experience of so many posters who have never been offered refunds under any conditions). I think it's fair, in a trusting doctor-patient relationship to refund only if the patient has kept to his/her part of the bargain, followed instructions, made a genuine, patient effort to make the devices work, and is still unsatisfied.

But the point I want to make is that if doctors were to offer a no-questions-asked unconditional refund to all patients who were dissatisfied with their orthotics (regardless of the reason, and the reason is sometimes that the patient hasn't followed the doctor's instructions), the cost of such refunds would have to be factored in to the doctors' overall expenses. Unless I've missed something, the result of such a policy seems pretty obvious: the cost of orthotics would rise significantly for everybody, and even fewer patients would be able to afford them. That can't be what anyone would want.

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

BrianG on 8/03/02 at 22:31 (091511)

Hi Julie,

I would have paid extra in the beginning for a guaranteed pair of orthotics. I have 2 pairs, at $200 each, that are useless. I finally found a pair I could wear for for $375. Believe me, I would have rather spent this bigger money up front for something that worked. My 1st two pairs of orthotics were so hard, they really caused me a lot of unnecessary pain wearing them. Who knows, they could have led to my feet becomming worse!! I'm not sure everyone feels like me, but I'm sure some do.

Regards
BrianG

Re: To Brian

Julie on 8/04/02 at 01:49 (091518)

Hi Brian

That's a good point, and I'm sure many would feel as you do! And I'm glad you finally found orthotics that have worked for you.

I do think, though, that it's probably unreasonable to expect a doctor to offer a 100% unconditional refund on his orthotics when there are always going to be some instances in which the patient hasn't met his or her own responsibility - i.e. hasn't followed instructions, or otherwise failed to play his or her part in making the treatment work. And I feel that Dr Wander's policy, which fully acknowledges his responsibility towards patients, is fair and generous.

But the most important thing is to get the diagnosis right in the first place, isn't it? so that in cases where an orthosis is likely to be helpful, the right one is prescribed for whatever the condition is.

All the best, Julie

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/06/02 at 23:35 (091807)

Brian:

Your statement has a lot of merit. Most people forget that the practice of medicine does not take place in a completely free market. Most fees are controlled via government or third parties. We would need a new procedure code for a 'guaranteed' orthotic as it would need to command a higher fee. Some third parties reimburse generously for orthotics, and others allow a minimal markup, and some actually are made at a net loss. A 'freer' market would make such a guarantee system more possible.

The other obstacle is that professional liability insurers would cringe if any modality had a 'guarantee' attached to albeit this is a fairly low risk area.
Ed

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

paula on 8/01/02 at 09:39 (091261)

well you know dr wander does give a refund in some cases and that is more than most will do. he also comes here and offers help and advice for free so let us give credit where credit is due. i think it is important to appreciate the doctors here who give their time. and pauline i do share your frustration as well. how about $1500 ice scraper pooper scoopers? that is only one of many useless orthotics for me.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Pauline on 8/01/02 at 15:28 (091295)

Paula,
I certainly appreciate all the doctors that come to this site. Ths discussion shouldn't be limited to only doctors on this site, instead we should all be questioning our doctors about orthotic refunds. In this particular discussion I am disagreeing with Dr. Wander post when he says that he gives a 100% refund. I disagree with that statement.

We've all put out lots of money on empty promises from orthotics, and I personally feel patients are owed a refund if the Rx product doesn't work.

This is a very expensive experment for the patient and they deserve respect in the form of a refund instead of the nasty looks that many receive when they complain after spending the money on a useless piece of hard plastic.

Not all cases turn out this way so that's more reason doctors should offer refunds.

I'm not picking on Dr. Wander but if he says he offer a 100% refund and then adds that he is the judge of whether the patients gets one or not that's not a QVC 100% no questions asked 100% refund to me. I'd call that a possible refund with strings attached. I feel he is saying if you fit certain criteria he will decide if you see some of your money refunded or not.

To me that's an important difference, and patients need to know this. They need to know what conditions allow for a 100% refund in his office or any other doctors office that does the same thing.

If a doctor tells me he will give me a 100% of my money back if the orthotics don't work then thats what I expect. I don't expect him to say later that I didn't qualify in his eyes for the refund. This would hold true for Dr. Wander or any doctor in my eyes.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/01/02 at 20:00 (091343)

Ok . I will give your money back. The check is in the mail. ( ha ha). I love these posts that are tough

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Pauline on 8/01/02 at 22:23 (091355)

The one thing I notice is when the tough questions are asked and the subjects get touchy a jesting post appears as an answer. Certainly easier than serious dialog.

Re: To Wander Re: Orthotics

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/01/02 at 23:20 (091360)

or the poster ignores the questions both are very effective

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

Julie on 8/02/02 at 02:11 (091362)

Pauline, you've made many good points, as always. But I don't agree that Dr Wander's refund policy is as mean and conditional as you imply; reading his post I felt it was far and away superior to that of most doctors (if we're to judge by the 'useless ice-scraper' experience of so many posters who have never been offered refunds under any conditions). I think it's fair, in a trusting doctor-patient relationship to refund only if the patient has kept to his/her part of the bargain, followed instructions, made a genuine, patient effort to make the devices work, and is still unsatisfied.

But the point I want to make is that if doctors were to offer a no-questions-asked unconditional refund to all patients who were dissatisfied with their orthotics (regardless of the reason, and the reason is sometimes that the patient hasn't followed the doctor's instructions), the cost of such refunds would have to be factored in to the doctors' overall expenses. Unless I've missed something, the result of such a policy seems pretty obvious: the cost of orthotics would rise significantly for everybody, and even fewer patients would be able to afford them. That can't be what anyone would want.

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

BrianG on 8/03/02 at 22:31 (091511)

Hi Julie,

I would have paid extra in the beginning for a guaranteed pair of orthotics. I have 2 pairs, at $200 each, that are useless. I finally found a pair I could wear for for $375. Believe me, I would have rather spent this bigger money up front for something that worked. My 1st two pairs of orthotics were so hard, they really caused me a lot of unnecessary pain wearing them. Who knows, they could have led to my feet becomming worse!! I'm not sure everyone feels like me, but I'm sure some do.

Regards
BrianG

Re: To Brian

Julie on 8/04/02 at 01:49 (091518)

Hi Brian

That's a good point, and I'm sure many would feel as you do! And I'm glad you finally found orthotics that have worked for you.

I do think, though, that it's probably unreasonable to expect a doctor to offer a 100% unconditional refund on his orthotics when there are always going to be some instances in which the patient hasn't met his or her own responsibility - i.e. hasn't followed instructions, or otherwise failed to play his or her part in making the treatment work. And I feel that Dr Wander's policy, which fully acknowledges his responsibility towards patients, is fair and generous.

But the most important thing is to get the diagnosis right in the first place, isn't it? so that in cases where an orthosis is likely to be helpful, the right one is prescribed for whatever the condition is.

All the best, Julie

Re: To Pauline Re: Orthotics

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/06/02 at 23:35 (091807)

Brian:

Your statement has a lot of merit. Most people forget that the practice of medicine does not take place in a completely free market. Most fees are controlled via government or third parties. We would need a new procedure code for a 'guaranteed' orthotic as it would need to command a higher fee. Some third parties reimburse generously for orthotics, and others allow a minimal markup, and some actually are made at a net loss. A 'freer' market would make such a guarantee system more possible.

The other obstacle is that professional liability insurers would cringe if any modality had a 'guarantee' attached to albeit this is a fairly low risk area.
Ed