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Subject for discussion

Posted by Pauline on 8/16/02 at 13:59 (092671)

One item I'd like to see discussed is: Why Americans have very little concern or problem with the incomes paid to Sports Figures or the Hollywood Crowd but think doctors incomes are tooooo high.

They have no problem paying top dollar for a concert or hockey tickets, but complain when their eye doctor charges them $150 for their yearly exam.

The greedy Cardiologist, who just might save their life, is suppost to set limits on his income, while baseball's free agents can grab all they can.

It appears Americans are more than willing to pain for 'Entertainment' no matter what the cost, but cry rape when it comes to office calls.

Re: Subject for discussion

Nancy N on 8/16/02 at 14:30 (092675)

Pauline--

Along the same line, how about the teachers who live at or near poverty level, but are expected to produce child geniuses on a regular basis, while also providing basic parenting functions that parents can't be bothered with for whatever reason? It's much the same concept...

Re: well, for one thing...

elliott on 8/16/02 at 15:13 (092679)

they themselves directly have to pay their doctors. They don't directly have to pay their sports or Hollywood figures.

Re: Subject for discussion

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 08:08 (092723)

Nancy,
Good point. What about the missing dollars that never get to teachers or kids? No one even bothers to check or lift their heads on this one.

How many administraters trips and homes and girlfriends houses did your district support? Around here they took the money and raped the classrooms.

I have a dear friend who has taught in an inter-city school for about 20 years. Last year was the first time in 20 years she received all the supplies (small things papers etc.) she requested.

A few weeks went by following the start of school when she saw one of her former students at a mall. He told her he had secured a job at the districts supply warehouse. His job was to fill teachers request forms.

Luckily this year he was the one who had gotten and filled her order. He took the time to walk the warehouse to gather evey item on her list. He was new on the job and eager to do it right. Later he told her when supply lists come it most of them are never filled or left incomplete because the warehouse workers don't want to walk to every location in this hugh warehouse. Many just mark the ordered items 'out of stock' instead.

Now she knows first hand how the system works, and sends her supply list marked 'Attn' to her former student name. Hopefully he's still there this year.

Re: well, for one thing...

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 08:11 (092725)

Elliott,
Isn't that what health care coverage is all about. Indirectly who pays???

Re: well, for one thing...

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/17/02 at 14:50 (092754)

We get enjoyment by going to concerts and seeing sports stars. Now doctors! who wants to go to a doctor in pain, and then pay for him to sometimes him you more. Now one ways to see the doctor. The big heart doctor get paid very well. I never say a poor cardiologist . Now poor podiatrist ?????

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/17/02 at 14:53 (092755)

The solution to our education system in my opinion is very simple. Just reaise the standards for becoming a teacher and at the saem time make the pay in the six figure range. We need to make the teaching profession a very important job and very desirable to college students. May even have to have a PHD to teach at all.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 21:57 (092785)

I have to jump in here on the teaching discussion as I have been a teacher for 24 years. Each state has their own requirements, but in Kentucky one must obtain a master's degree (30 hours beyond the 4 yr. degree). I also elected to take 30 hours beyond that to obtain my Rank I degree. When you add in extra training and professional development classes which we take yearly, we are rather highly trained.

But as long as people think that teachers (especially we in elementary schools) are 'babysitters', have 'easy jobs with the summer off', etc., then no matter how much education is required, I don't think it will greatly affect salaries.

My daughter will do her student teaching beginning in January, and I have been impressed with the requirements she has undergone in her college experience.

Of course, I am not in teaching for the money; I teach because I love it. I need the money, naturally, and could always use more :-), but the salary is not my motivation. I have a little uneasiness in my mind thinking of a time to come in which prospective students might be drawn to the profession because it seemed lucrative. I am not sure that would draw the best candidates for the profession. But then I am rather 'old-fashioned' in my ideas sometimes!

An interesting topic...

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:08 (092789)

Suzanne--

I agree with you. While the PhD idea isn't bad on the surface, anyone with that much education is likely to be bored if they're teaching only the very fundamentals to teenagers. And if people do it just for the money, there will be even more disgruntled teachers than there are now.

Teaching in a private school means that I'm not required to be certified to teach. I also get paid less than my public school colleagues. And a lot of people think that their kids will get a better education in a private school than a public one. So I don't think that the certification is really the issue. And there are a lot of really good public schools out there--even though there are a lot that desperately need help of one sort or another.

I do think there are a lot of people who do think that teachers are essentially babysitters, and that the teachers will therefore do the job of parenting for them. Obviously, there are also people who do parent their kids well, too. But I do think that most teachers are expected to do too much with too little--not just too little money in their paychecks, but too few resources. Or they have plentiful resources like the Internet, but are not able or allowed to use them in class due to lack of funds or training.

Either way, it makes me sick to think how much we pay professional athletes when we have schools that are overcrowded and falling apart, and staffed by too few teachers because there's no money to pay them.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 22:21 (092791)

Well said, Nancy! Too much expected with too little in the way of resources is, sadly, the way many teachers have to work day by day.

Somehow I think that people are buying into a 'fairy tale' when they support enormous salaries for professional athletes and movie stars. Without being conscious of it, I think they feel a little hope inside themselves that they, too, might find that golden dream someday and 'live happily ever after' like we all wanted to do as children. That is just my opinion, but I feel it has something to do with rational people finding nothing wrong with the glory and prestige - not to mention money - given to these 'heroes' while there are schools struggling along with not enough of what is needed to educate the students.

By the way, I hope you have a good school year. Have you started yet? We have now completed our second week of school.

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 22:25 (092793)

I think parents with the blessing of administrators and the government have forced teachers into babysitting. They put teachers in the center between a rock and a hard place, tie their hands, then mandate they make everyone happy.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:29 (092795)

Yes, the notion that teachers can teach anything armed with nothing more than a box of chalk and a blackboard is unfathomably outdated. It's fine to be expected to use 19th-century technology as long as you only have to teach 19th-century material!

I think you might be onto something with the fairy tale--living vicariously through the athletes, actors, etc. And what's that bumper-sticker saying about how one day, the schools will have all the money they need, and the army will hold a bake sale to buy a tank? Not that spending money in all these places is a bad thing--but the proportions need to be adjusted a bit, I think.

I haven't started school yet for the year. I have meetings the last week of August, and school starts the following week--and away we go! I'm a little nervous about teaching a new class I put together, but I think it will probably go well. It's called Technology and Society, and I think I am going to let the kids determine which topics we cover as much as possible so that it'll be relevant to them. Which means I can't plan a whole lot in advance, so I'll be doing a lot of things somewhat on the fly. Should be interesting, if nothing else!

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 22:42 (092797)

That DOES sound interesting, Nancy! Challenging, but very interesting and stimulating. Is it high school that you teach or middle school? I am thinking that I read you taught in a private high school. I remember now your talking of the cars that they drive, so it must be a high school.

Technology is such a vast and wide-open field! I am barely scratching the surface with it, but I have seen a lot of changes in my 24 years of teaching. I remember our first computers with the games to practice math and so forth. And now we have the internet, and it is just amazing what we can learn.

Last year, my first graders were learning about owls, and I found a site in which a park ranger had chronicled with pictures and sound as well as written information the hatching of baby owlets, their growing and learning to fly. We viewed all this from the computer via a hook-up to our television screen so all could see better. Then we e-mailed the man and had an answer back by the time we got back from lunch! Astounding...

Good luck with your class!

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:49 (092798)

Thanks, Suzanne--I think it will be interesting, once I get started and see how things go. The first week is always the worst--I remember how utterly terrified I was last year when I was left on my own in the classroom on that first day, with no idea what to say or do. I got through it, but I still dread the first week of class--after that, we all start to get to know each other, and things flow pretty well. The first week can be rocky, though. (And yes, I'm in a high school, though we also have a small middle school.)

Sounds like you have a good grasp of how to use Internet resources in class! Good for you! There are a lot of teachers out there who don't know they can do anything like what you're doing. One of the things I want to make my kids consider in this course is that the Internet, wonderful as it is, is not the ultimate source of information. That there are plenty of sites with dubious information, and that they need to sort through with a critical eye before taking anything they find as fact.

I also want to get into some areas like media literacy, Napster, identity theft, etc. But I am limited to one quarter for the course, which is why I think I am going to let them choose topics from a list on the first day, and try to customize it to them as much as possible. Some things, like media literacy, I am planning to teach regardless, because I think it's really important. If things go well and enough kids are interested, I'd eventually like to make it a semester course.

Wish me luck!

Re: well...

elliott on 8/17/02 at 22:59 (092800)

it was unclear whether you meant direct payments to docs such as co-pays and noncovered services (all on the rise) or the somewhat more indirect insurance premiums (also on the rise). Either way, since it's their health at stake, they understandably feel they have no choice but to seek treatment, hence complain (fairly or not) about the costs the must pay. But other than something like a publicly funded stadium (a more indirect payment and sometimes voted upon), you just don't have to support your sports figures.

BTW, just what did happen a long time ago between you and Dr. Z? Can't you two just kiss and make up?

--

Re: well...

Kathy G on 8/18/02 at 01:36 (092805)

I have to jump in since I'm the mother of a son with a masters in education who is currently a tennis pro in a private country club and making over twice what he could make as a teacher. It was a part-time job to work his way through school but they really wanted him to stay and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. His specialty is teaching children and this summer, he helped to organize a summer camp so he's happy because he's with children so much of the time. He'll always have his degree to fall back on, but it's a sad commentary when a tennis pro makes so much more than a teacher.

Living in NH, education is a huge issue. Our school system is supported through property taxes alone. We get very little money from the state and because of the tax structure, the richer towns with high tax revenue have the best schools and the poorer towns struggle. We have no state-mandated public kindergarten. Teacher salaries are among the lowest in the nation and our university has the highest in-state tuition in the country.

I have been on countless committees and worked on more losing political campaigns than I care to admit, all with the goal of changing our educational system. Actually, I'm the kiss of death for a candidate. If I support a person, it's a pretty sure bet that he/she will lose!

My daughter, who is in college, would pursue a teaching career were it not for the low salaries that teachers receive and she has many friends who feel the same way. She admires her brother but she won't be able to supplement her teaching salary as a part-time tennis pro as he will be able to do in the future. There are some states that pay their teachers what they are worth - Connecticut comes to mind - but they are few and far between. It's a very perplexing, frustrating problem and because it is mixed up with politics, it just gets more and more confusing. Here's hoping it changes for the better because we need dedicated teachers who are also making a living wage.

Re: Good luck!

Suzanne D on 8/18/02 at 06:51 (092815)

It does sound as if you have a great idea for a class, Nancy, and I would think it will be well received and that you will be able to eventually make it into a semester course.

Good point on the fact that just because something is on the internet doesn't necessarily make it true or the ultimate source of information! Perhaps people battled that idea years ago concerning newspapers, bringing about that old saying of 'just because you read it in the newspaper doesn't make it true'.

I have taught many years, and every year the week before school starts I am a 'nervous wreck'! I know that after we get the first day or two behind us, I won't feel that way, but I go through that every year.

When I do, I remember a fine teacher and friend who taught 47 years and retired the year before I was hired. I saw her the night before my first day of school my first year and told her I was scared to death! She smiled and patted my hand and said, 'Honey, I tuaght 47 years, and EVERY year the night before school began, I lay awake thinking 'What in the world am I going to do with those children all day?''

Suzanne :-)

Re: well...

Nancy N on 8/18/02 at 15:45 (092852)

Kathy--

Excellent points, though I think it's important to note that not all teachers earn the same salaries within a particular state. Some states, like Maryland, have county-based districts that, I believe, report to one superintendent for the whole state. Even there, the salaries differ, whether you're in Baltimore City or Baltimore County makes a big difference. Pennsylvania and New Jersey are two states that don't have any sort of state-wide school system, and the salaries vary widely there as well.

I can tell you that the salaries in Trenton, NJ are very different from the salaries in the next two townships (Lawrence and Princeton). We have some high salaries around here because there is a lot of money in this area--but there is also no teacher shortage here. Teachers come here to get the jobs that pay better with kids that, hopefully, behave better. And the districts they come from, which can't pay as much, just can't compete with the wealthier districts.

It's a severely unbalanced system, both within the states and between the states.

Re: Subject for discussion

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/18/02 at 15:54 (092854)

Pauline:

I here doctors express those very same thoughts on a regular basis.
There is a lot of psychology and social issues to ponder -- beyond the scope of my knowledge. People seem to have no limit (except for their credit limit) as to what they are willing to pay for entertainment. The movie industry thrived during the Great Depression.

People, especially on the coasts, seem to buy as much house as their credit will allow and often as expensive a car or SUV as their income allows. ESWT is cheaper than most individuals mortgage payment for one month on a typical Seattle home. Yet there is outrage when insurance will not cover the treatment and often unwillingness to pay cash.
Ed

Re: Subject for discussion

JudyS on 8/19/02 at 10:48 (092897)

I wonder, Pauline, if part of that attitude is due to the fact that this country has always considered medical care to be a right, not a luxury. Perhaps it follows then that, when receiving a seemingly large bill, people become emotional and frightened because they know that they can't always control their health, therefor can't always control their health care costs.
I hate to admit it, knowing that I'm being politically incorrect, but I really do think Hillary Clinton was on the right track lo those many years ago. She was just going to be unaccepted no matter what. The one problem I saw with her plan, however, was that physicians weren't going to be earning the money they, like teachers, emergency workers, etc,. deserve.

Speaking of athletes, I've taken on a position as interim equipment room manager here at a local college's athletic department. I'm completely amazed at the treatment given these athletes and it makes me wonder how the grad students over in the biology department (you know, the ones who will discover the cure to cancer?) are treated.......

Re: Subject for discussion

Nancy N on 8/19/02 at 11:20 (092899)

Judy--

I think you're onto something there--despite the fact that our healthcare system is obviously not set up so that coverage is a right, our society wants it to be one (most people do for themselves, despite the fact that universal health coverage is such a controversy). As a result, I think most people figure that their insurance should cover everything,and get very upset when they find out that it doesn't. I know I've been guilty of this myself--it's that feeling of 'What the heck am I paying for if they're not going to cover my bills?' It causes a lot of frustration. People figure they shouldn't have to worry because they have insurance--but we all know how cooperative those insurance companies can be!

Re: Subject for discussion

Nancy N on 8/16/02 at 14:30 (092675)

Pauline--

Along the same line, how about the teachers who live at or near poverty level, but are expected to produce child geniuses on a regular basis, while also providing basic parenting functions that parents can't be bothered with for whatever reason? It's much the same concept...

Re: well, for one thing...

elliott on 8/16/02 at 15:13 (092679)

they themselves directly have to pay their doctors. They don't directly have to pay their sports or Hollywood figures.

Re: Subject for discussion

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 08:08 (092723)

Nancy,
Good point. What about the missing dollars that never get to teachers or kids? No one even bothers to check or lift their heads on this one.

How many administraters trips and homes and girlfriends houses did your district support? Around here they took the money and raped the classrooms.

I have a dear friend who has taught in an inter-city school for about 20 years. Last year was the first time in 20 years she received all the supplies (small things papers etc.) she requested.

A few weeks went by following the start of school when she saw one of her former students at a mall. He told her he had secured a job at the districts supply warehouse. His job was to fill teachers request forms.

Luckily this year he was the one who had gotten and filled her order. He took the time to walk the warehouse to gather evey item on her list. He was new on the job and eager to do it right. Later he told her when supply lists come it most of them are never filled or left incomplete because the warehouse workers don't want to walk to every location in this hugh warehouse. Many just mark the ordered items 'out of stock' instead.

Now she knows first hand how the system works, and sends her supply list marked 'Attn' to her former student name. Hopefully he's still there this year.

Re: well, for one thing...

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 08:11 (092725)

Elliott,
Isn't that what health care coverage is all about. Indirectly who pays???

Re: well, for one thing...

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/17/02 at 14:50 (092754)

We get enjoyment by going to concerts and seeing sports stars. Now doctors! who wants to go to a doctor in pain, and then pay for him to sometimes him you more. Now one ways to see the doctor. The big heart doctor get paid very well. I never say a poor cardiologist . Now poor podiatrist ?????

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Dr. Zuckerman on 8/17/02 at 14:53 (092755)

The solution to our education system in my opinion is very simple. Just reaise the standards for becoming a teacher and at the saem time make the pay in the six figure range. We need to make the teaching profession a very important job and very desirable to college students. May even have to have a PHD to teach at all.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 21:57 (092785)

I have to jump in here on the teaching discussion as I have been a teacher for 24 years. Each state has their own requirements, but in Kentucky one must obtain a master's degree (30 hours beyond the 4 yr. degree). I also elected to take 30 hours beyond that to obtain my Rank I degree. When you add in extra training and professional development classes which we take yearly, we are rather highly trained.

But as long as people think that teachers (especially we in elementary schools) are 'babysitters', have 'easy jobs with the summer off', etc., then no matter how much education is required, I don't think it will greatly affect salaries.

My daughter will do her student teaching beginning in January, and I have been impressed with the requirements she has undergone in her college experience.

Of course, I am not in teaching for the money; I teach because I love it. I need the money, naturally, and could always use more :-), but the salary is not my motivation. I have a little uneasiness in my mind thinking of a time to come in which prospective students might be drawn to the profession because it seemed lucrative. I am not sure that would draw the best candidates for the profession. But then I am rather 'old-fashioned' in my ideas sometimes!

An interesting topic...

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:08 (092789)

Suzanne--

I agree with you. While the PhD idea isn't bad on the surface, anyone with that much education is likely to be bored if they're teaching only the very fundamentals to teenagers. And if people do it just for the money, there will be even more disgruntled teachers than there are now.

Teaching in a private school means that I'm not required to be certified to teach. I also get paid less than my public school colleagues. And a lot of people think that their kids will get a better education in a private school than a public one. So I don't think that the certification is really the issue. And there are a lot of really good public schools out there--even though there are a lot that desperately need help of one sort or another.

I do think there are a lot of people who do think that teachers are essentially babysitters, and that the teachers will therefore do the job of parenting for them. Obviously, there are also people who do parent their kids well, too. But I do think that most teachers are expected to do too much with too little--not just too little money in their paychecks, but too few resources. Or they have plentiful resources like the Internet, but are not able or allowed to use them in class due to lack of funds or training.

Either way, it makes me sick to think how much we pay professional athletes when we have schools that are overcrowded and falling apart, and staffed by too few teachers because there's no money to pay them.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 22:21 (092791)

Well said, Nancy! Too much expected with too little in the way of resources is, sadly, the way many teachers have to work day by day.

Somehow I think that people are buying into a 'fairy tale' when they support enormous salaries for professional athletes and movie stars. Without being conscious of it, I think they feel a little hope inside themselves that they, too, might find that golden dream someday and 'live happily ever after' like we all wanted to do as children. That is just my opinion, but I feel it has something to do with rational people finding nothing wrong with the glory and prestige - not to mention money - given to these 'heroes' while there are schools struggling along with not enough of what is needed to educate the students.

By the way, I hope you have a good school year. Have you started yet? We have now completed our second week of school.

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Pauline on 8/17/02 at 22:25 (092793)

I think parents with the blessing of administrators and the government have forced teachers into babysitting. They put teachers in the center between a rock and a hard place, tie their hands, then mandate they make everyone happy.

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:29 (092795)

Yes, the notion that teachers can teach anything armed with nothing more than a box of chalk and a blackboard is unfathomably outdated. It's fine to be expected to use 19th-century technology as long as you only have to teach 19th-century material!

I think you might be onto something with the fairy tale--living vicariously through the athletes, actors, etc. And what's that bumper-sticker saying about how one day, the schools will have all the money they need, and the army will hold a bake sale to buy a tank? Not that spending money in all these places is a bad thing--but the proportions need to be adjusted a bit, I think.

I haven't started school yet for the year. I have meetings the last week of August, and school starts the following week--and away we go! I'm a little nervous about teaching a new class I put together, but I think it will probably go well. It's called Technology and Society, and I think I am going to let the kids determine which topics we cover as much as possible so that it'll be relevant to them. Which means I can't plan a whole lot in advance, so I'll be doing a lot of things somewhat on the fly. Should be interesting, if nothing else!

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Suzanne D on 8/17/02 at 22:42 (092797)

That DOES sound interesting, Nancy! Challenging, but very interesting and stimulating. Is it high school that you teach or middle school? I am thinking that I read you taught in a private high school. I remember now your talking of the cars that they drive, so it must be a high school.

Technology is such a vast and wide-open field! I am barely scratching the surface with it, but I have seen a lot of changes in my 24 years of teaching. I remember our first computers with the games to practice math and so forth. And now we have the internet, and it is just amazing what we can learn.

Last year, my first graders were learning about owls, and I found a site in which a park ranger had chronicled with pictures and sound as well as written information the hatching of baby owlets, their growing and learning to fly. We viewed all this from the computer via a hook-up to our television screen so all could see better. Then we e-mailed the man and had an answer back by the time we got back from lunch! Astounding...

Good luck with your class!

Suzanne :-)

Re: Subject for discussion- teaching

Nancy N on 8/17/02 at 22:49 (092798)

Thanks, Suzanne--I think it will be interesting, once I get started and see how things go. The first week is always the worst--I remember how utterly terrified I was last year when I was left on my own in the classroom on that first day, with no idea what to say or do. I got through it, but I still dread the first week of class--after that, we all start to get to know each other, and things flow pretty well. The first week can be rocky, though. (And yes, I'm in a high school, though we also have a small middle school.)

Sounds like you have a good grasp of how to use Internet resources in class! Good for you! There are a lot of teachers out there who don't know they can do anything like what you're doing. One of the things I want to make my kids consider in this course is that the Internet, wonderful as it is, is not the ultimate source of information. That there are plenty of sites with dubious information, and that they need to sort through with a critical eye before taking anything they find as fact.

I also want to get into some areas like media literacy, Napster, identity theft, etc. But I am limited to one quarter for the course, which is why I think I am going to let them choose topics from a list on the first day, and try to customize it to them as much as possible. Some things, like media literacy, I am planning to teach regardless, because I think it's really important. If things go well and enough kids are interested, I'd eventually like to make it a semester course.

Wish me luck!

Re: well...

elliott on 8/17/02 at 22:59 (092800)

it was unclear whether you meant direct payments to docs such as co-pays and noncovered services (all on the rise) or the somewhat more indirect insurance premiums (also on the rise). Either way, since it's their health at stake, they understandably feel they have no choice but to seek treatment, hence complain (fairly or not) about the costs the must pay. But other than something like a publicly funded stadium (a more indirect payment and sometimes voted upon), you just don't have to support your sports figures.

BTW, just what did happen a long time ago between you and Dr. Z? Can't you two just kiss and make up?

--

Re: well...

Kathy G on 8/18/02 at 01:36 (092805)

I have to jump in since I'm the mother of a son with a masters in education who is currently a tennis pro in a private country club and making over twice what he could make as a teacher. It was a part-time job to work his way through school but they really wanted him to stay and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. His specialty is teaching children and this summer, he helped to organize a summer camp so he's happy because he's with children so much of the time. He'll always have his degree to fall back on, but it's a sad commentary when a tennis pro makes so much more than a teacher.

Living in NH, education is a huge issue. Our school system is supported through property taxes alone. We get very little money from the state and because of the tax structure, the richer towns with high tax revenue have the best schools and the poorer towns struggle. We have no state-mandated public kindergarten. Teacher salaries are among the lowest in the nation and our university has the highest in-state tuition in the country.

I have been on countless committees and worked on more losing political campaigns than I care to admit, all with the goal of changing our educational system. Actually, I'm the kiss of death for a candidate. If I support a person, it's a pretty sure bet that he/she will lose!

My daughter, who is in college, would pursue a teaching career were it not for the low salaries that teachers receive and she has many friends who feel the same way. She admires her brother but she won't be able to supplement her teaching salary as a part-time tennis pro as he will be able to do in the future. There are some states that pay their teachers what they are worth - Connecticut comes to mind - but they are few and far between. It's a very perplexing, frustrating problem and because it is mixed up with politics, it just gets more and more confusing. Here's hoping it changes for the better because we need dedicated teachers who are also making a living wage.

Re: Good luck!

Suzanne D on 8/18/02 at 06:51 (092815)

It does sound as if you have a great idea for a class, Nancy, and I would think it will be well received and that you will be able to eventually make it into a semester course.

Good point on the fact that just because something is on the internet doesn't necessarily make it true or the ultimate source of information! Perhaps people battled that idea years ago concerning newspapers, bringing about that old saying of 'just because you read it in the newspaper doesn't make it true'.

I have taught many years, and every year the week before school starts I am a 'nervous wreck'! I know that after we get the first day or two behind us, I won't feel that way, but I go through that every year.

When I do, I remember a fine teacher and friend who taught 47 years and retired the year before I was hired. I saw her the night before my first day of school my first year and told her I was scared to death! She smiled and patted my hand and said, 'Honey, I tuaght 47 years, and EVERY year the night before school began, I lay awake thinking 'What in the world am I going to do with those children all day?''

Suzanne :-)

Re: well...

Nancy N on 8/18/02 at 15:45 (092852)

Kathy--

Excellent points, though I think it's important to note that not all teachers earn the same salaries within a particular state. Some states, like Maryland, have county-based districts that, I believe, report to one superintendent for the whole state. Even there, the salaries differ, whether you're in Baltimore City or Baltimore County makes a big difference. Pennsylvania and New Jersey are two states that don't have any sort of state-wide school system, and the salaries vary widely there as well.

I can tell you that the salaries in Trenton, NJ are very different from the salaries in the next two townships (Lawrence and Princeton). We have some high salaries around here because there is a lot of money in this area--but there is also no teacher shortage here. Teachers come here to get the jobs that pay better with kids that, hopefully, behave better. And the districts they come from, which can't pay as much, just can't compete with the wealthier districts.

It's a severely unbalanced system, both within the states and between the states.

Re: Subject for discussion

Ed Davis, DPM on 8/18/02 at 15:54 (092854)

Pauline:

I here doctors express those very same thoughts on a regular basis.
There is a lot of psychology and social issues to ponder -- beyond the scope of my knowledge. People seem to have no limit (except for their credit limit) as to what they are willing to pay for entertainment. The movie industry thrived during the Great Depression.

People, especially on the coasts, seem to buy as much house as their credit will allow and often as expensive a car or SUV as their income allows. ESWT is cheaper than most individuals mortgage payment for one month on a typical Seattle home. Yet there is outrage when insurance will not cover the treatment and often unwillingness to pay cash.
Ed

Re: Subject for discussion

JudyS on 8/19/02 at 10:48 (092897)

I wonder, Pauline, if part of that attitude is due to the fact that this country has always considered medical care to be a right, not a luxury. Perhaps it follows then that, when receiving a seemingly large bill, people become emotional and frightened because they know that they can't always control their health, therefor can't always control their health care costs.
I hate to admit it, knowing that I'm being politically incorrect, but I really do think Hillary Clinton was on the right track lo those many years ago. She was just going to be unaccepted no matter what. The one problem I saw with her plan, however, was that physicians weren't going to be earning the money they, like teachers, emergency workers, etc,. deserve.

Speaking of athletes, I've taken on a position as interim equipment room manager here at a local college's athletic department. I'm completely amazed at the treatment given these athletes and it makes me wonder how the grad students over in the biology department (you know, the ones who will discover the cure to cancer?) are treated.......

Re: Subject for discussion

Nancy N on 8/19/02 at 11:20 (092899)

Judy--

I think you're onto something there--despite the fact that our healthcare system is obviously not set up so that coverage is a right, our society wants it to be one (most people do for themselves, despite the fact that universal health coverage is such a controversy). As a result, I think most people figure that their insurance should cover everything,and get very upset when they find out that it doesn't. I know I've been guilty of this myself--it's that feeling of 'What the heck am I paying for if they're not going to cover my bills?' It causes a lot of frustration. People figure they shouldn't have to worry because they have insurance--but we all know how cooperative those insurance companies can be!