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Different diagnosis !

Posted by Pete R on 9/20/02 at 07:07 (095804)

I've seen a new Pod in England twice now and he is convinced my heel pain is not pf as such, but myofascial pain. Apparently, the trigger points in you lower leg get activated and refer pain to the heels, he showed me all the diagrams on this.When this happens the calf muscles, and all lower leg muscles get tight and don't allow the foot to flex properly

The treatment consists of deactivating the trigger points with his fingers (not needles) and stretching like crazy. My pod maintains stretching will not work if the trigger points are active.

I've seen no improvement yet but remain hopeful. I get no morning pain which does suggest it isn't pf. My only sceptism is how can he deactivate with his fingers ? I guess we'll all believe anything if our pain carries on for any length of time !

Anyone heard of this, or have found good articles on this specific sort of problems ? Most internet articles suggest that needles are involved.

Re: Different diagnosis !

Carmen H on 9/20/02 at 08:06 (095811)

Hi Pete~

If you do a search on my name Carmen H you will come up with quite a bit about this 'trigger Point' therapy. I had positive results from it for a lot more than my feet. I have long term RSInjuries in my feet so they are definitely going to take some time. But feeling the trigger points release was a HUGE relief in my calves.
Using their fingers to release is very common and needles don't HAVE to be used in every case.
He probably referred to the Travell & Simons workbook for Myofascial pain when he showed you the Trigger points & their referrals.
Let me know if you can't find the information under my name and I will send you links.

Re: Carmen

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:18 (095815)

Great to hear from someone who has some positive results.

I've had 2 sessions with him and after both my knee joints on the outside (by one of the trigger points) clicked which he suggested had activated that point again. This ever happen to you ? My calves have never actually felt tight, although they feel tight / weary today, probably after I saw him yesterday

Also did you use your own fingers on the points, he says I can do this when sitting in a hot bath ? He was also on about moist heat treatment to all the points in the lower leg......hot water bottle wrapped in damp cloth ???

Can you buy the book he mentioned ?

So you didn't have pf then ?

I'll do the search.

Re: Different diagnosis !

Julie on 9/20/02 at 08:19 (095816)

Pete, this sounds hopeful. Thanks for posting, and keep us posted. Is this doctor in Birmingham?

Carmen, I was going to suggest that Pete talk to you or look up your posts on myofascial treatment, and you beat me to it. It helped you considerably, didn't it?

Re: Carmen

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:50 (095821)

Carmen,

Just done a search, and I can see you are v knowledgeable on the subject. Some of the web sites addresses don't work for me (for some unknown reason). Can you, therefore, post any links / books you've found useful etc.

I'm keen to learn more. I did have trigger point treatment for my back using needles earlier this year but it didn't work. I only had 3 treatments before the Doc gave up, which I thought was a bit premature.

Anything you can provide would be useful. I'll try anything !!

Re: Julie

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:54 (095823)

The pod is in Stourbridge just outside Birmingham.

He is a really nice guy, if a little wacky, and speaks very very quickly. He is absolutely convinced I don't have pf, mainly I think because of no morning pain and the pain when palpatating the heel is nothing compared to the pain when standing.

He still reckons orthotics are needed and made me a cheap £15 pair to see how I get on initially.

If I have one issue with this pod it is that he's initial examination was pretty quick before he reached a conclusion. But I'll give anything a go !

Re: Different diagnosis !

Carrie on 9/20/02 at 12:59 (095849)

I have been treated for the trigger points as well. In fact I did the whole series of triggers last year. It didn't help at all until the last round when he added steroids to the injection of lidocaine, that did the trick, and made the pain go away and lasted about 5 months. I went in today and did it again. I know what everyone says about shots but I had to do what I had to do as I was suffereing too much. Was it a mistake, I don't know yet? Maybe I will pay down the road but I am taking the risk anyhow to get immediate relief. The difference between what most PODS do and what this Dr did to me today was that the pods often times go in with a big needle and deposit it right in one spot sometimes as much as 10cc of fluid. So you get pain, burning, bruising and swelling. TOday I had a tiny amount of steroid mixed with lidocaine, like 2cc and then it was injected directly into the spots where the pain is, which in my case is not right on the plantar fascia or the achiles tendon. At any rate it was painless and the numbing agent was fantastic. Of course it has not worn off yet, so I don't know if I am going to be in more pain or not yet. However, the last time I had this done the pain on the right foot never came back like it has on the left. Am I crazy, for hoping against all odds that this will work again and maybe not come back on the left this time, yeah maybe. When people are in pain they have to do what they have to do, so yeah I think the trigger point therapy is worth a shot like I said I did it, and even though it didn't work for me, it does and can work for some people. I say if you can do it, might as well give it a shot.

hugs
Carrie

Re: Carmen

Carmen H on 9/20/02 at 13:14 (095850)

Hi Pete~

Needles aren't always the answer...and most of the time TP's can be released with a skilled practitioner. Make sure your guy is using the Travell & Simons chart (he seems knowledgable and probably is but it's bet to ask) they set the standards for practicing the release...pain referral information etc.
Yes...Julie I had tremendous relief with TP release therapy in my glutes, hams, back and calves. My feet even felt better initially (took a great deal of tightness and pain away) but I have done some serious damage to my feet over the past few years and I now can do my own TP work on them just as effectively so I try not to spend more $$ on treatments than I have to.
Yes Pete you CAN do you your own 'finger work' but I recommend a tennis ball for larger and hard to penetrate areas....or supported thumb methods.
I would go to the bookstore and research Myofascial Pain Syndrome...(even if it's not widespread for you the books have great sections for every part of the body. Claire Davies wrote a fantastic manual for self treatment....It's called 'The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook' your self treatment guide for pain relief.
While he may be convinced you don't have PF don't rule it out yet. I don't have the morning pain either...only after standing does mine hurt. But I have been seen by many doctors and though they didn't do squat for me most of them agreed...Plantar Fasciitis but not in text book terms.
So please practice the proper methods for treating PF still....no barefeet, wear good shoes at all times...not just the cheap inserts he gave you...make sure you use the proper shoes....etc etc.
You should be able to get rid of TP's without needles...unless you have chronic Tp's all over your body.
What links couldn't you get access to and I will repost?

Re: Carmen

Pete on 9/21/02 at 06:03 (095882)

Carmen,

I had problems with all the links ! Can you repost the one you think relevant. I'm also interested in again treating my back with TP.

Thanks for all your help

Pete

Re: Different diagnosis !

Carmen H on 9/20/02 at 08:06 (095811)

Hi Pete~

If you do a search on my name Carmen H you will come up with quite a bit about this 'trigger Point' therapy. I had positive results from it for a lot more than my feet. I have long term RSInjuries in my feet so they are definitely going to take some time. But feeling the trigger points release was a HUGE relief in my calves.
Using their fingers to release is very common and needles don't HAVE to be used in every case.
He probably referred to the Travell & Simons workbook for Myofascial pain when he showed you the Trigger points & their referrals.
Let me know if you can't find the information under my name and I will send you links.

Re: Carmen

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:18 (095815)

Great to hear from someone who has some positive results.

I've had 2 sessions with him and after both my knee joints on the outside (by one of the trigger points) clicked which he suggested had activated that point again. This ever happen to you ? My calves have never actually felt tight, although they feel tight / weary today, probably after I saw him yesterday

Also did you use your own fingers on the points, he says I can do this when sitting in a hot bath ? He was also on about moist heat treatment to all the points in the lower leg......hot water bottle wrapped in damp cloth ???

Can you buy the book he mentioned ?

So you didn't have pf then ?

I'll do the search.

Re: Different diagnosis !

Julie on 9/20/02 at 08:19 (095816)

Pete, this sounds hopeful. Thanks for posting, and keep us posted. Is this doctor in Birmingham?

Carmen, I was going to suggest that Pete talk to you or look up your posts on myofascial treatment, and you beat me to it. It helped you considerably, didn't it?

Re: Carmen

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:50 (095821)

Carmen,

Just done a search, and I can see you are v knowledgeable on the subject. Some of the web sites addresses don't work for me (for some unknown reason). Can you, therefore, post any links / books you've found useful etc.

I'm keen to learn more. I did have trigger point treatment for my back using needles earlier this year but it didn't work. I only had 3 treatments before the Doc gave up, which I thought was a bit premature.

Anything you can provide would be useful. I'll try anything !!

Re: Julie

Pete R on 9/20/02 at 08:54 (095823)

The pod is in Stourbridge just outside Birmingham.

He is a really nice guy, if a little wacky, and speaks very very quickly. He is absolutely convinced I don't have pf, mainly I think because of no morning pain and the pain when palpatating the heel is nothing compared to the pain when standing.

He still reckons orthotics are needed and made me a cheap £15 pair to see how I get on initially.

If I have one issue with this pod it is that he's initial examination was pretty quick before he reached a conclusion. But I'll give anything a go !

Re: Different diagnosis !

Carrie on 9/20/02 at 12:59 (095849)

I have been treated for the trigger points as well. In fact I did the whole series of triggers last year. It didn't help at all until the last round when he added steroids to the injection of lidocaine, that did the trick, and made the pain go away and lasted about 5 months. I went in today and did it again. I know what everyone says about shots but I had to do what I had to do as I was suffereing too much. Was it a mistake, I don't know yet? Maybe I will pay down the road but I am taking the risk anyhow to get immediate relief. The difference between what most PODS do and what this Dr did to me today was that the pods often times go in with a big needle and deposit it right in one spot sometimes as much as 10cc of fluid. So you get pain, burning, bruising and swelling. TOday I had a tiny amount of steroid mixed with lidocaine, like 2cc and then it was injected directly into the spots where the pain is, which in my case is not right on the plantar fascia or the achiles tendon. At any rate it was painless and the numbing agent was fantastic. Of course it has not worn off yet, so I don't know if I am going to be in more pain or not yet. However, the last time I had this done the pain on the right foot never came back like it has on the left. Am I crazy, for hoping against all odds that this will work again and maybe not come back on the left this time, yeah maybe. When people are in pain they have to do what they have to do, so yeah I think the trigger point therapy is worth a shot like I said I did it, and even though it didn't work for me, it does and can work for some people. I say if you can do it, might as well give it a shot.

hugs
Carrie

Re: Carmen

Carmen H on 9/20/02 at 13:14 (095850)

Hi Pete~

Needles aren't always the answer...and most of the time TP's can be released with a skilled practitioner. Make sure your guy is using the Travell & Simons chart (he seems knowledgable and probably is but it's bet to ask) they set the standards for practicing the release...pain referral information etc.
Yes...Julie I had tremendous relief with TP release therapy in my glutes, hams, back and calves. My feet even felt better initially (took a great deal of tightness and pain away) but I have done some serious damage to my feet over the past few years and I now can do my own TP work on them just as effectively so I try not to spend more $$ on treatments than I have to.
Yes Pete you CAN do you your own 'finger work' but I recommend a tennis ball for larger and hard to penetrate areas....or supported thumb methods.
I would go to the bookstore and research Myofascial Pain Syndrome...(even if it's not widespread for you the books have great sections for every part of the body. Claire Davies wrote a fantastic manual for self treatment....It's called 'The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook' your self treatment guide for pain relief.
While he may be convinced you don't have PF don't rule it out yet. I don't have the morning pain either...only after standing does mine hurt. But I have been seen by many doctors and though they didn't do squat for me most of them agreed...Plantar Fasciitis but not in text book terms.
So please practice the proper methods for treating PF still....no barefeet, wear good shoes at all times...not just the cheap inserts he gave you...make sure you use the proper shoes....etc etc.
You should be able to get rid of TP's without needles...unless you have chronic Tp's all over your body.
What links couldn't you get access to and I will repost?

Re: Carmen

Pete on 9/21/02 at 06:03 (095882)

Carmen,

I had problems with all the links ! Can you repost the one you think relevant. I'm also interested in again treating my back with TP.

Thanks for all your help

Pete