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To Elliott

Posted by Pauline on 10/15/02 at 22:11 (097587)

A news worthy item, Dr. Zingas of Dornier fame is looking at the possibility of using the Ossatron in his practice. It will be interesting to see which machine is actually selected.

Re: To Elliott

elliott on 10/16/02 at 08:41 (097611)

Interesting, thanks, although I'm not sure why you're singling ME out here; you can let Dr. Z know too. :-) Why is Zingas not sticking with the Dornier given its fabulous results?

A prominent doc on the East Coast I just took the trip to visit is about to conduct trials on the spectra-something-or-other, yet another ESWT device. Anyone know anything about that one?

[]

Re: To Elliott

Pauline on 10/16/02 at 09:46 (097616)

Because of the research you did on the Dornier, I though you might be interested. If I remember correctly you were very interested in Dornier's one year follow up report which had Dr. Zingas's name on it.

My personal opinion about the machines selected by all doctors boils down to $$$$$. It could be that insurance coverage is more readily available currently on the Ossatron, or it could simply be the surgical center is willing to pick up the tap for the machine and the practice wouldn't have to 'OWN' their own.

Since he is in with a large Ortho group, where each doctor specializes in a different part of the body, shoulder, knee, hip, foot etc., perhaps as a group they may be willing to use an Ossatron that someone else owns and purchase the one FDA approved to treat shoulders instead.

You can be sure the single most important factor is dollars and cents. Dr. Z never mentioned if the 50 doctors in his group all use the one single mobile machine, but that's how it appears to me. If this is indeed the case the cost most likely would be very reasonable for each doctor, compared to each one having to purchase their own.

If Dr. Zingas purchased the Dornier chances are it would be 'his' machine because he wouldn't be taking it on the road, and technically I don't think it can be used to treat other parts of the body. By using the Ossatron the group still has the option to purchase the other machine.

You'll also remember that I've often said he was not impressed by ESWT results fabulous or not so my guess is doctors wanting to incorporate ESWT select what fits the budget more than anything else. It's about $$$$ and it will always be about $$$$. I'm not saying that kindness, caring, and providing good treatment isn't there, but the bottom line comes down to income vs expenses.

Sorry if I made you feel singled you. :(

Re: To Elliott

elliott on 10/16/02 at 10:27 (097620)

While $$$$ may dictate which machine one gets, if it turns out the machine doesn't work, $$$$ (not to mention kindness and caring) will dictate a switch to a machine that does.

[]

Re: To Elliott

Pauline on 10/16/02 at 10:44 (097622)

This may be why Dr. Gordon is using both Ossatron and Sonocur. Zingas would have the same options Sunny mentioned in one of his posts similar to what Dr. Gordon is doing. Perhaps this would be the perfect choice for their practice and priced right too.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

BrianG on 10/16/02 at 18:53 (097669)

Does anyone know if Dornier is working with the FDA, to get the Epos approved for treating other parts of the body? If not, it would appear that it will be at a big disadvantage. It looks like DrZ is making it (the Dornier) work, but look at how many partners he has had to take on. Everyone may not be in that position,therefore the Ossatron would seem like the better, all around machine.

BrianG

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/16/02 at 21:29 (097684)

It will take a lot more time and data before we know where and when high energy and low energy units have their advantages. It is definitely too early to make this call.
Ed

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

BrianG on 10/16/02 at 21:57 (097694)

I was under the impression that both of these units were 'high' energy, no / yes ???

BrianG

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/16/02 at 22:10 (097697)

Ossatron is high energy only. Dornier is variable energy ... low to high but used mainly as a high energy unit. Sonocur is also a variable energy unit but used primarily on the low end. The lowest energy setting on Sonocur is considerably less, to the best of my knowledge, than on the Dornier unit. The highest energy setting on the Dornier unit is higher than the highest energy level on Sonocur.
Ed

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

elliott on 10/16/02 at 22:26 (097699)

Other than dealing with discomfort during the zapping process (which can be mitigated through anesthesia), is there any reason low energy might work when high energy will not?

[]

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:28 (097714)

Elliott,
Dr. Kudo at Fowler Kennedy in Canada which usually delivered 3 sessions of low energy using a Dornier 3 weeks apart was testing against the American protocol of one high energy treatment. I don't know how far they are in their study.

Perhaps the purpose is to be able to cut costs if indeed they get the same results they have been getting using three treatments.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:31 (097715)

Elliott,
Dr. Kudo at Fowler Kennedy in Canada which usually delivered 3 low energy treatments, one week apart using a Dornier. She started testing against the American protocol of one high energy treatment. I don't know how far they are in their study.

Perhaps the purpose is to be able to cut their costs and treatment time for the patient if indeed they get the same results they have been getting using three treatments.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:36 (097716)

If very low energy is effective perhaps several lower treatment could be offered to help diabetic's, pregnant women or any other group currently not permitted to have ESWT. This might be one application if it worked.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/19/02 at 12:48 (097897)

Just not enough information to know yet. I cannot imagine using a very high energy level in lateral epicondylitis or any tendons which are relatively thin with a boney prominence directly beneath them.
Ed

Re: To Elliott

elliott on 10/16/02 at 08:41 (097611)

Interesting, thanks, although I'm not sure why you're singling ME out here; you can let Dr. Z know too. :-) Why is Zingas not sticking with the Dornier given its fabulous results?

A prominent doc on the East Coast I just took the trip to visit is about to conduct trials on the spectra-something-or-other, yet another ESWT device. Anyone know anything about that one?

[]

Re: To Elliott

Pauline on 10/16/02 at 09:46 (097616)

Because of the research you did on the Dornier, I though you might be interested. If I remember correctly you were very interested in Dornier's one year follow up report which had Dr. Zingas's name on it.

My personal opinion about the machines selected by all doctors boils down to $$$$$. It could be that insurance coverage is more readily available currently on the Ossatron, or it could simply be the surgical center is willing to pick up the tap for the machine and the practice wouldn't have to 'OWN' their own.

Since he is in with a large Ortho group, where each doctor specializes in a different part of the body, shoulder, knee, hip, foot etc., perhaps as a group they may be willing to use an Ossatron that someone else owns and purchase the one FDA approved to treat shoulders instead.

You can be sure the single most important factor is dollars and cents. Dr. Z never mentioned if the 50 doctors in his group all use the one single mobile machine, but that's how it appears to me. If this is indeed the case the cost most likely would be very reasonable for each doctor, compared to each one having to purchase their own.

If Dr. Zingas purchased the Dornier chances are it would be 'his' machine because he wouldn't be taking it on the road, and technically I don't think it can be used to treat other parts of the body. By using the Ossatron the group still has the option to purchase the other machine.

You'll also remember that I've often said he was not impressed by ESWT results fabulous or not so my guess is doctors wanting to incorporate ESWT select what fits the budget more than anything else. It's about $$$$ and it will always be about $$$$. I'm not saying that kindness, caring, and providing good treatment isn't there, but the bottom line comes down to income vs expenses.

Sorry if I made you feel singled you. :(

Re: To Elliott

elliott on 10/16/02 at 10:27 (097620)

While $$$$ may dictate which machine one gets, if it turns out the machine doesn't work, $$$$ (not to mention kindness and caring) will dictate a switch to a machine that does.

[]

Re: To Elliott

Pauline on 10/16/02 at 10:44 (097622)

This may be why Dr. Gordon is using both Ossatron and Sonocur. Zingas would have the same options Sunny mentioned in one of his posts similar to what Dr. Gordon is doing. Perhaps this would be the perfect choice for their practice and priced right too.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

BrianG on 10/16/02 at 18:53 (097669)

Does anyone know if Dornier is working with the FDA, to get the Epos approved for treating other parts of the body? If not, it would appear that it will be at a big disadvantage. It looks like DrZ is making it (the Dornier) work, but look at how many partners he has had to take on. Everyone may not be in that position,therefore the Ossatron would seem like the better, all around machine.

BrianG

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/16/02 at 21:29 (097684)

It will take a lot more time and data before we know where and when high energy and low energy units have their advantages. It is definitely too early to make this call.
Ed

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

BrianG on 10/16/02 at 21:57 (097694)

I was under the impression that both of these units were 'high' energy, no / yes ???

BrianG

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/16/02 at 22:10 (097697)

Ossatron is high energy only. Dornier is variable energy ... low to high but used mainly as a high energy unit. Sonocur is also a variable energy unit but used primarily on the low end. The lowest energy setting on Sonocur is considerably less, to the best of my knowledge, than on the Dornier unit. The highest energy setting on the Dornier unit is higher than the highest energy level on Sonocur.
Ed

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

elliott on 10/16/02 at 22:26 (097699)

Other than dealing with discomfort during the zapping process (which can be mitigated through anesthesia), is there any reason low energy might work when high energy will not?

[]

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:28 (097714)

Elliott,
Dr. Kudo at Fowler Kennedy in Canada which usually delivered 3 sessions of low energy using a Dornier 3 weeks apart was testing against the American protocol of one high energy treatment. I don't know how far they are in their study.

Perhaps the purpose is to be able to cut costs if indeed they get the same results they have been getting using three treatments.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:31 (097715)

Elliott,
Dr. Kudo at Fowler Kennedy in Canada which usually delivered 3 low energy treatments, one week apart using a Dornier. She started testing against the American protocol of one high energy treatment. I don't know how far they are in their study.

Perhaps the purpose is to be able to cut their costs and treatment time for the patient if indeed they get the same results they have been getting using three treatments.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Pauline on 10/17/02 at 08:36 (097716)

If very low energy is effective perhaps several lower treatment could be offered to help diabetic's, pregnant women or any other group currently not permitted to have ESWT. This might be one application if it worked.

Re: Will the Ossatron outsell the Dornier, in the long run?

Ed Davis, DPM on 10/19/02 at 12:48 (097897)

Just not enough information to know yet. I cannot imagine using a very high energy level in lateral epicondylitis or any tendons which are relatively thin with a boney prominence directly beneath them.
Ed