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I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Posted by Max K on 11/01/02 at 23:46 (098982)

I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today, by Dr Ed Davis. I have had bilateral PF since 1998, caused by walking 80 minutes a day with (unknown to me) an overpronation problem. Dr Davis prescribed custom orthotics, made by Northwest Podiatric Laboratory, which corrected the biomechanical problem. They were perfect from the first step. Then we tried a round of ultrasound PT (9 sessions), but it had no noticeable effect. I don't have medical insurance. I paid $250 for each of the 3 Sonocur treatments scheduled for my left foot. Hopefully, in 6-12 weeks, I will see a noticeable improvement in that foot. If it works, I will consider doing the right foot also.

Re: the perfect patient

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 12:23 (099034)

Max:
Thank you for your comments.
I do not want to come across as not being genuine but I am giving Max the award as the 'perfect patient.' He does not have health insurance so he must work hard to make sure the money he spends on health care is wisely spent. Too many individuals spend more time researching the car they will buy but will leave health care decisions up to someone else. Max has researched his medical problem, including coming to this site to find out which treatments are most reliable and how they work. He proceeds thoughtfully, cautiously and is a direct and active participant in his health care decisions. Yes, the price he is paying is a discounted one--- but here is the bottom line: if third parties, government and other middlemen were out of the way and patients took an active interest in their care, the cost of healthcare in this country could be reduced easily by 60 to 70%, with quality going up. The free market really does work--- no one has ever given it a chance to work in healthcare!
Ed

Re: the perfect patient

Tim V. on 11/02/02 at 14:24 (099046)

Max,

How much pain did you experience during the individual treatment session and how long do
the sessions take.

Thanks,

Tim

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

ortho-pod on 11/02/02 at 15:22 (099058)

too bad you succumbed to an ineffective treatment in the long run...i suggest you read the recent study in journal of orhtopaedic research
vol 20 (2002) pp.895-898 showing that there is a significant placebo effect and no evidence of any value.....just goes to show you that only
high energy systems offer long term therapeutic benefit with only one treatment.........

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 15:33 (099062)

One study does not negate the multiplicity of studies and vastly successful experience with low energy ESWT. You list your name as 'ortho-pod' so you are implying that you are a practitioner. Shame on you to come to this site and spread misinformation.

Any placebo effect may be evidenced as some short term relief. keep in ind that most patients have long term painful conditions and are not going to be cured by a placebo.
Ed

Re: the perfect patient

Max K on 11/02/02 at 16:43 (099076)

On a pain scale of 1-19, my PF pain has never been more than about a 3 on my worst day. Well, okay, maybe a 4 on my worst day, otherwise just a level 1 or 2. And the moment I sit down, the pain goes away, so I'm lucky indeed compared to some others on this board.

I mention my normal pain levels in case there is a correlation between the level of everyday pain and the level of discomfort during a Sonocur treatment.

The treatments were more comfortable than I expected. For the first treatment, I took the day off from work, not knowing what to expect. On the next two treatments, I went back to work the very same hour, because the treatments felt more comfortable and less invasive than a routine dental cleaning.

I thought that I would feel something like a physical impact on the surface of my heel, and that the impact would then extend itself into the deeper tissues, sort of like hitting your heel with a stick. But is wasn't like that: there was no sensation of physical impact, no felt impact on the surface of the heel. Instead, it felt like a mild electrical impulse that went straight through the surface of the heel, with no wasted energy and nothing to slow it down, and landed directly in the deeper tissues.

When I try to remember what it felt like, I have to think of a chrome balance ball toy such as this: http://www.aboyd.com/products/saf6557-16.html
When you pull back one ball and let it go, it hits the resting balls, and the ball on the other side bounces out. Obviously the first impact is a real physical impact, chrome against chrome, but after that, the impulse travels through the other balls in a way that does not involve a physical impact, it just continues to extend itself until it is spent at the other end and causes the last ball to bounce.

During the Sonocur treatment, my heel felt like it was positioned in the middle of such a set of chrome balance balls. I could feel the energy waves coming in, but not via physical impact. Instead, it felt more like a low-power electrical impulse, even though no electricity is sent into the heel. I'm sure it must be an impact of some sort, it's just so fast or smooth or efficient that it didn't register as a physical impact at all.

I could feel each shockwave arrive at my heel, of course, and at the higher intensity levels, it was a bit annoying, but overall surprisingly tolerable. I would say that an intensity level of 8 on the machine (10 being the highest) corresponded with a pain level of only about 3: annoying, but tolerable for hours at a time if need be, but the treatments only lasted 15-20 minutes each.

I would almost say that the clicking sound of the Sonocur was more annoying than the shockwaves arriving in my heel. The clicking noise was fairly loud, it required concentration and a loud voice to communicate over it. There was one click per shockwave. There were 4 clicks per second, although at intensity level 5 and above, there were only 3 clicks per second. In all 3 treatments, Dr Davis started at the lowest intensity level and slowly increased to the main level for the bulk of the session. At any time I could have said 'stop' or 'ease off' of something, but I didn't need to, because it just wasn't that bad. I didn't need a break, either. Each of the three treatments (spaced one week apart) consisted of 2000 shockwaves. I believe the first session was mostly at intensity level 5, the second session was around level 6, and yesterday on the third session we reached level 8.

Did it feel invasive? Somewhat, especially the first treatment, because you hear these clicking sounds, and at first you feel nothing, then you start to feel an unusual impulse deep in your heel, and a few seconds later you notice that there is a regular pattern to those impulses, and that the pattern corresponds to the loud clicking noise you're hearing. At first the connection doesn't occur to you, and wouldn't occur to you, because you feel no impact on the surface of your heel. So at first it feels a bit invasive/confusing, because you're trying to sort these things out that you have never experienced together like this. But I quickly adapted to this new experience, and the second and third treatments no longer felt invasive.

Re: the perfect patient

john h on 11/02/02 at 17:01 (099077)

Treament with the Orby felt like a big hammer hitting your foot. A jolt not anything electrial about it. After the first 10 jolts your foot was sort of numb and you could read a magazine ast the treatment progressed.

Re: the perfect patient

Max K on 11/02/02 at 17:10 (099082)

I meant to say: a pain scale of 1-10, not 1-19. I tried to edit my post, and I always put my email address in that 'optional and hidden' box, and people have responded to my original post, and I get those responses in my email, but still I do not see an option for any sort of editing, only an option for adding a reply to what's already there. So: is it possible to edit a post or no?

Re: sound intensity

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 20:00 (099101)

The Ossatron is louder and the staff uses hearing protection in the OR.
Ed

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Dr. Z on 11/03/02 at 12:46 (099173)

Dr. Ed,

This is amazing that someone would come to this site and spread this to one of your patients

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/04/02 at 13:52 (099293)

It is hard to believe that that inidividual is a health professional as that action would be considered unethical and maybe sanctionable. I guess that individual will never let us know his name.
Ed

Re: the perfect patient

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 12:23 (099034)

Max:
Thank you for your comments.
I do not want to come across as not being genuine but I am giving Max the award as the 'perfect patient.' He does not have health insurance so he must work hard to make sure the money he spends on health care is wisely spent. Too many individuals spend more time researching the car they will buy but will leave health care decisions up to someone else. Max has researched his medical problem, including coming to this site to find out which treatments are most reliable and how they work. He proceeds thoughtfully, cautiously and is a direct and active participant in his health care decisions. Yes, the price he is paying is a discounted one--- but here is the bottom line: if third parties, government and other middlemen were out of the way and patients took an active interest in their care, the cost of healthcare in this country could be reduced easily by 60 to 70%, with quality going up. The free market really does work--- no one has ever given it a chance to work in healthcare!
Ed

Re: the perfect patient

Tim V. on 11/02/02 at 14:24 (099046)

Max,

How much pain did you experience during the individual treatment session and how long do
the sessions take.

Thanks,

Tim

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

ortho-pod on 11/02/02 at 15:22 (099058)

too bad you succumbed to an ineffective treatment in the long run...i suggest you read the recent study in journal of orhtopaedic research
vol 20 (2002) pp.895-898 showing that there is a significant placebo effect and no evidence of any value.....just goes to show you that only
high energy systems offer long term therapeutic benefit with only one treatment.........

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 15:33 (099062)

One study does not negate the multiplicity of studies and vastly successful experience with low energy ESWT. You list your name as 'ortho-pod' so you are implying that you are a practitioner. Shame on you to come to this site and spread misinformation.

Any placebo effect may be evidenced as some short term relief. keep in ind that most patients have long term painful conditions and are not going to be cured by a placebo.
Ed

Re: the perfect patient

Max K on 11/02/02 at 16:43 (099076)

On a pain scale of 1-19, my PF pain has never been more than about a 3 on my worst day. Well, okay, maybe a 4 on my worst day, otherwise just a level 1 or 2. And the moment I sit down, the pain goes away, so I'm lucky indeed compared to some others on this board.

I mention my normal pain levels in case there is a correlation between the level of everyday pain and the level of discomfort during a Sonocur treatment.

The treatments were more comfortable than I expected. For the first treatment, I took the day off from work, not knowing what to expect. On the next two treatments, I went back to work the very same hour, because the treatments felt more comfortable and less invasive than a routine dental cleaning.

I thought that I would feel something like a physical impact on the surface of my heel, and that the impact would then extend itself into the deeper tissues, sort of like hitting your heel with a stick. But is wasn't like that: there was no sensation of physical impact, no felt impact on the surface of the heel. Instead, it felt like a mild electrical impulse that went straight through the surface of the heel, with no wasted energy and nothing to slow it down, and landed directly in the deeper tissues.

When I try to remember what it felt like, I have to think of a chrome balance ball toy such as this: http://www.aboyd.com/products/saf6557-16.html
When you pull back one ball and let it go, it hits the resting balls, and the ball on the other side bounces out. Obviously the first impact is a real physical impact, chrome against chrome, but after that, the impulse travels through the other balls in a way that does not involve a physical impact, it just continues to extend itself until it is spent at the other end and causes the last ball to bounce.

During the Sonocur treatment, my heel felt like it was positioned in the middle of such a set of chrome balance balls. I could feel the energy waves coming in, but not via physical impact. Instead, it felt more like a low-power electrical impulse, even though no electricity is sent into the heel. I'm sure it must be an impact of some sort, it's just so fast or smooth or efficient that it didn't register as a physical impact at all.

I could feel each shockwave arrive at my heel, of course, and at the higher intensity levels, it was a bit annoying, but overall surprisingly tolerable. I would say that an intensity level of 8 on the machine (10 being the highest) corresponded with a pain level of only about 3: annoying, but tolerable for hours at a time if need be, but the treatments only lasted 15-20 minutes each.

I would almost say that the clicking sound of the Sonocur was more annoying than the shockwaves arriving in my heel. The clicking noise was fairly loud, it required concentration and a loud voice to communicate over it. There was one click per shockwave. There were 4 clicks per second, although at intensity level 5 and above, there were only 3 clicks per second. In all 3 treatments, Dr Davis started at the lowest intensity level and slowly increased to the main level for the bulk of the session. At any time I could have said 'stop' or 'ease off' of something, but I didn't need to, because it just wasn't that bad. I didn't need a break, either. Each of the three treatments (spaced one week apart) consisted of 2000 shockwaves. I believe the first session was mostly at intensity level 5, the second session was around level 6, and yesterday on the third session we reached level 8.

Did it feel invasive? Somewhat, especially the first treatment, because you hear these clicking sounds, and at first you feel nothing, then you start to feel an unusual impulse deep in your heel, and a few seconds later you notice that there is a regular pattern to those impulses, and that the pattern corresponds to the loud clicking noise you're hearing. At first the connection doesn't occur to you, and wouldn't occur to you, because you feel no impact on the surface of your heel. So at first it feels a bit invasive/confusing, because you're trying to sort these things out that you have never experienced together like this. But I quickly adapted to this new experience, and the second and third treatments no longer felt invasive.

Re: the perfect patient

john h on 11/02/02 at 17:01 (099077)

Treament with the Orby felt like a big hammer hitting your foot. A jolt not anything electrial about it. After the first 10 jolts your foot was sort of numb and you could read a magazine ast the treatment progressed.

Re: the perfect patient

Max K on 11/02/02 at 17:10 (099082)

I meant to say: a pain scale of 1-10, not 1-19. I tried to edit my post, and I always put my email address in that 'optional and hidden' box, and people have responded to my original post, and I get those responses in my email, but still I do not see an option for any sort of editing, only an option for adding a reply to what's already there. So: is it possible to edit a post or no?

Re: sound intensity

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/02/02 at 20:00 (099101)

The Ossatron is louder and the staff uses hearing protection in the OR.
Ed

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Dr. Z on 11/03/02 at 12:46 (099173)

Dr. Ed,

This is amazing that someone would come to this site and spread this to one of your patients

Re: I got my 3rd Sonocur treatment today

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/04/02 at 13:52 (099293)

It is hard to believe that that inidividual is a health professional as that action would be considered unethical and maybe sanctionable. I guess that individual will never let us know his name.
Ed