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Re: Different opinions

Posted by Necee on 11/04/02 at 00:28 (099232)

Seems like the messages regarding voting and politicians has sparked some interesting comments. Although we all have differences, at least we can agree to disagree. I'm thankful that we live in a nation of freedoms, and can voice our opinions without fear of persecution. Some of the earlier posts were rather harsh, but I'm certain they were not intended to attack anyone here personally, at least thats how I feel. Differences are good!!
Besides.....look at what we've gained from all this....John has learned how to spell after all these years, and Wendy found out the meaning of guber!!!

Happy trails...

Necee

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/04/02 at 02:28 (099239)

Necee, I think you might be referring to my post about Clinton and the role of the media. The intention was to point out that in any public/political event or affair, there is always more than meets the eye, and that the newspapers and television have a considerable, if not always acknowledged, effect on the way we form our opinions.

ALL our opinions, including mine.

I agree that differences of opinion are good, but I feel it is vital that we be aware of the role of the media in the manipulation of our opinions. Much of our freedom in our free society may depend on that vigilance.

The post wasn't intended harshly, and you are right that it wasn't meant to attack anyone, and I'm sorry if it upset you.

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/04/02 at 11:40 (099280)

Yeah, but you also said Clinton was a relatively good president. I say he was a very bad president, and he ain't no relative of mine. :-)

As for the U. S. press, sure, things are different from the Kennedy era and it can't help but overblow sex, but that aside, everyone knows that overall the press is much more biased against Republicans, almost by definition.

Regarding Bush, sure, he might oversimplify some arguments, but I agree with him that people like Saddam should go, and give him credit for being just about the only one willing to do something about it. In my eyes, it it the position of those advocating doing just about nothing that is dangerous. Oh, I almost forgot, the very effective United Nations will handle such problems for us; silly me. :-)

Hey, we all got our opinions. :-)

[]

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/04/02 at 11:51 (099281)

Elliott, I've asked you twice on these message boards what state you live in... I guess you don't want to say since you didn't answer. But do you live in the US?

Just curious. If you do, then like us you may have quite an election coming up tomorrow.

Carole C

Re: Different opinions

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/04/02 at 14:13 (099297)

Elliott:

We still are not sure who Clinton was related to due to his social exploits. Despite that, we can be probably be more certain that the two of us are distant relatives with little or no relationship to Bill Clinton.

Clinton had a lot of charisma and, in turn, a measure of popularity. Ultimately -- let history judge. We may be suffering, now, from some of the economic excesses of his administration and his lack of attention to details of national security.
Ed

Re: To: Julie, Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 14:24 (099299)

No need to apoligize Julie, you are intitled to your opinion like anyone else here.
I was referring to every post that was made regarding this discussion, not just yours in particular. Having said that, the only problem I had with your post was.....telling me more or less that I was wrong in my thinking.

Happy trails....
Necee

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 14:26 (099301)

Thank you Dr. Ed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very well stated.

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/04/02 at 15:29 (099313)

It's not a secret, I've said several times before on these boards where I live, but you keep asking me if I live in the U.S. smack in the middle of another thread seemingly having nothing to do with it that I can't help but ponder whether my post sounded to you like I'm from outer space. So I'm returning the favour, er, favor, and letting you ponder things too. :-)

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/04/02 at 17:09 (099328)

What one thinks of the goodness or badness of Clinton's presidency is, genuinely, a matter of opinion. That the media manipulate information with the aim of influencing our opinions is a fact. That is all I was trying to say.

Re: Different opinions

caryn z on 11/04/02 at 17:22 (099332)

heh Elliott, your spelling is a dead giveaway is 'eh' in your vocabulary at all neighbour!!

what fun :)

cheers Caryn

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/04/02 at 18:28 (099341)

Good dodge, Mystery Man. :)

Carole C

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 22:56 (099383)

In my opinion, the media simply makes things public. It's the 'people in the news' who do the manipulating trying to keep their little lies and scandals out of the public eye, that is a fact.
nuf said on this issue....

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/04/02 at 23:00 (099386)

Elliott - I don't remember you EVER saying where you lived.

Of course, I may have missed it - but it sounds like EVERYONE missed it.

Are you familiar with these gubernatorial things - or maybe you know what poutine is? Not that I know how to spell poutine.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 00:07 (099390)

in my opinion, the media *choose* what to make public and what to emphasize (i've personally seen them do it, actually, more times than i can count), and they manipulate facts and rumors just as do many individuals in the public eye, be they republicans, democrats, independents, christians, buddhists, jews, muslims, jehovah's witnesses -- the whole human gamut.

much of this is human nature and human frailty. the goodness and honesty in many people prevail, no matter what groups they align themselves with, and that's always heartening to see. the lies and manipulation that take place are definitely not heartening, but there is no one group of people that has a corner on moral uprightness, honesty, and so on. in every kind of sociological group that can be named, you will find a variety of people with differing motives and intentions and values and acts of malevolence or of kindness.

in my opinion, the way to be respectful of differing opinions is to acknowledge that truth is a subjective thing and that no one has a direct line to it. we can only do our best to seek it out for ourselves and act according to what we learn.

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/05/02 at 05:36 (099393)

Actually, Necee, it's really not a matter of opinion. The media are a tricky bunch, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. Some of it is simply the nature of the beast (they can't report absolutely everything, so they pick and choose--and this process alone can distort the news).This is why I'm able to teach a 'Media Literacy' course at school--because kids need to be taught to view the news critically, rather than believing everything they see. News in the US can be radically different than what's reported elsewhere, because of various factors that cause the media to report certain things in certain ways that don't apply overseas. Check out the Center for Media Literacy if you're curious.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/05/02 at 10:26 (099417)

Yep it's true, Necee - it's the people who make the news who count. And Julie's right also - the media is pretty darn sneaky at manipulating the depth of those 'stories'. However, I'd like to think that the public is reasonably intelligent in just how much they decide to believe from the media. I'd like to think that I, for instance, can decide for myself what I want to believe about a public figure.

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/05/02 at 11:55 (099430)

Yes, Judy I agree with you 100%. We are not zombies, we do have the ability to reason, and understand the issues. When something makes 'the news', its completely our own individual choice to believe it or not, regardless of how it was presented to us. Sure sounds like slander to me if news stories were made public that were unfounded.

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/05/02 at 12:01 (099432)

And another thing......I'll say this...yes, the media does a lot of manipulating, if it wasn't for that, we'd probably never know about all the lies, and misconduct.

Happy trails...

Necee

Re: Different opinions

Richard, C.Ped on 11/05/02 at 13:12 (099440)

I agree as well that the media plays a factor in manipulation. What really stands out in my mind was watching Peter Jennings criticize President Bush for not telling people where he was right after the 9/11 attack. I watched Jennings basically give no respect to Bush at all after all that. Personally, I didn't think we should have known where he was for saftey reasons. Some of the media can be very biased in their reports. Others do a pretty good job. I think we are all intelligent enough to form an opinion on our own. That is a good thing, because I am usually watching Clifford, Barney or some other children's show with my daughter instead of watching the news. haha!
Richard, C.Ped

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 14:23 (099447)

such as iran/contra? i'd like to have known a lot more about those lies and that misconduct, and seen appropriate responsibility and action taken, than about the sex life of one president. what could be wrong with this picture....

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/05/02 at 16:36 (099453)

I'm not sure the thrill of highlighting all your faulty memories is worth my coming out of the closet :-), but check these out:

threads/56105.html

bbt.cgi?n=65716

Wendyn, you contributed to the first thread and appeared on Heelspurs later the same day as the second thread. There may be more, any on Social being precluded from a search. I recall at least one other thread, a prominent one no less, in which I said where I live: After Tammie's troublesome surgery, I suggested she consider flying to my city to see some nerve specialists here, and I volunteered to pick her up from the airport. Julie, no doubt you've been respecting my privacy up till now, but I'm sure you remember, since you pointed out that my offer to Tammie was a generous one (hey, what a guy! :-)). I hereby give you permission to tell them you remember (Julie, my dearest good friend, you wouldn't let me down now, wouldja?!?).

Now that I've spilled the beans, can you tell me, Carole C, just what the connection in your mind is between a post of mine and your asking, in what seems non sequitur fashion, where I live? I just gotta know!

[]

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 18:23 (099461)

carole must be creative. creative minds come up with non sequiturs all the time and keep life interesting.

so . . . baltimore. that might explain a couple of things -- but i doubt it!

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/05/02 at 20:12 (099467)

Elliott - you are correct. I was in that thread...Baltimore. I have no idea where Baltimore is. Now I will have to go look that up on Google too.

Re: Different opinions

Jim C on 11/05/02 at 20:37 (099468)

I would liked to have known more also, but with the Clinton scandal, it all boiled down to Linda Tripp. Without her it problaly wouldn't have been as big a story. I geuss the Iran/Contra people kept better secrets!
You have to remember that the media is for profit and they tend to report what sells papers and ratings. And when a major event happens, anything related is the next hot story, which gives the impression of a epidemic, such as plane crashes, children being kidnapped, the west nile virus story is a great example. My 9 year old was afraid to go outside this summer because of fear of getting it, but in reality he had a much greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident.

Jim

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/06/02 at 03:09 (099482)

Elliott, I'm deeply honoured to be considered your dearest good friend. I do remember that thread, and I still think it was great of you to make that offer to Tammie. I wish she had taken it up.

And yes, I did remember. I just didn't want to spoil the fun.

Cheers!

Re: Different opinions

Suzanne D on 11/06/02 at 12:13 (099510)

I remembered, too, Elliott, as you were kind enough to mail me that article on PF several months ago. You had no return address, but there was the cancelled stamp with the place from which it was mailed.

I thought I remembered from the thread with the offer to Tammie as well, but it was not my place to reveal your hometown, so I didn't. :-)

By the way, are you now able to tell us any more about that math article of yours which is to be published someday?

Suzanne :-)

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:00 (099565)

Neece: Sadam got elected with 100% of the vote. How about that for popularity.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:13 (099567)

George W is the first President since Roosevelt to not lose any Senators or Reps from his party and in fact gained control of both houses. He carries the highest approval rating ever for a President at midpoint in his term. He started slow by has that something that attracts many people. Similar to Regan. I think the major problem the Democrats had in this election was the obstruction of anything the President proposed by Tom Daschel in the Senate. We had hundreds of judical appointments he would not even bring to a vote even though most would have easily been confirmed by both Democrats and Republicans. We still do not even have a budget because of the Senate, No Home Land Security Agency, no agreement on prescription drugs for seniors because we could not even bring it to a vote because of the Senate leadership. At least things should be voted up or down. I think we will began to see some movement not because we have a couple of more Republicans but because it is apparent the people are sick of obstruction for the sake of obstruction.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:24 (099568)

Ed: Bill did not carry Arkansas in the 2nd election. His problems with women was very common knowleged here in our little state way before he became a candidate for President. He was our Attorney General and Governor. His Library is currently under construction here in Little Rock and will be the largest of all the Libraries. It will contain an apartment. Part of the Library will also be a very large lake home in Hot Springs. I do not understand how that is part of the Library but it is. He remains a very controversal figure in Arkansas and generally speaking is not very popular. I do think Hillary has been back since he went out of office. Arkansas is a very rural and conservative state and I continue to be supprised at some to the very Liberal national politicians we produce such as Fullbright and Clinton to some extent. Our new Senator Mark Pryor would be considered a Republican in a state like California. His father was a popular Governor and 3 term Senator from Arkansas. I think he will be one who will attempt to get things done in the Senate and not be an obstructionist. Do any of you remember our famous Senator Wilbur Mills and the Fanny Fox incident?

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:27 (099569)

Ultimately history will be the final judge of Bill Clinton. We are all to close to the situation. Fifty years from now it would be interesting to see what history books have to say about his Presidency.

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/07/02 at 14:39 (099586)

So basically--as I suspected--just about everyone on the board remembered what city I live in except for Carole and Wendy, two of the brightest minds here. :-) Suzanne, pay no attention to that cancelled stamp; I intentionally travelled halfway around the country before mailing it. :-)

Math article? Thanks for asking. I sent them the final electronic version two months ago, and they had no complaints; now we wait. The editor had said he wants it to appear sooner rather than later, as he wants the readers to have fresh in their minds a recent article in the same journal I quoted as a reference. I'd guess 3-7 months. Not sure I should divulge which journal it will be in; not only will it name my city, but also my last name, place of employment, maybe even an email address. Oh my gosh! What have I done?!?

[]

Re: Different opinions

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/07/02 at 21:33 (099608)

I remember Senator Mills -- your state really has some colorful politicians. Fulbright was amazing. His politics was only slightly to the right of Nikita Kruschev. How on earth did people in your state elect somewhat like him?
Ed

Re: They had no choice

Valerie S on 11/09/02 at 07:55 (099658)

There was only one candidate and the people were forced to vote or suffer the consequences.... literally... FORCED to vote for him.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 12:36 (099885)

I'm a bit late to this particular conversation but I wanted to add a thought about California. It continues to surprise me how so many folks in more traditionally conservative regions continue to think that California is a kettle full of boiling liberals or just-plain weirdos. That's actually not the case overall. Well, all right, we DO have Hollywood!
But the fact is that the majority of us are hard-working, moderate towards strong, conservative folks. We have white-picket fences, homework, church, dinner, and raise our kids the 'old-fashioned' way. Yes, CA re-elected Gray Davis, but the GOP didn't produce much to work with. We resent our tax dollars and facilities being overused by illegal residents while PC policy-makers make the situation worse, we were angry that the Feds didn't help us when Gray Davis made a mess out of the energy crisis......and so on and so on. Probably the most 'out there' thing we do that is not so common towards the east is that we pursue athletic or other physical activities a lot of the time, year-round - male and female alike. The actual amount of 'weirdos' in California is quite small and their reputation and presence is due largely to the weather. And none of the rest of us want them in our neighborhoods. Also, the last president we produced was Ronald Reagan.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/12/02 at 13:04 (099891)

Well, bless your little heart Judy. Come on out here in Arkansas with all us conservatives and let us fix you a mess of collard greens and fat back. y'll fit rite in. hurry on down here and get way from those nasty liberals.

col john

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 15:34 (099912)

liberal progressive radicals are lookin mighty good to me, sittin here in the heart of dixie.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 15:59 (099917)

as a liberal weirdo from california, i can honestly say we are seldom boiling. i am assuming this was descriptive, as opposed to cooking directions.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 16:40 (099923)

must get lonely sometimes down there, paula! come on up here if you ultimately can't take it. this used to be the conservative nest of the northeast, but no longer. it's getting more well-rounded by the minute.

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:16 (099925)

judy, i'm just curious -- aside from hollywood, of course! -- what do you think of as a 'weirdo'? in our new town/neighborhood, which we chose to move to with great relief, there are lots of people some might consider weirdos, but the variety for me is a huge breath of fresh air. i can breathe for the first time in ages. for the most part they do not include criminals or parasites -- just lots of variety. they may not be leading white-pickett-fence lives, but they have a lot going for them and are very interesting. i'm just curious how you define 'weirdo.'

nancy
,

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 17:21 (099926)

where are you nancy? i'll bring all the liberal weirdos with me from georgia. there won't be a lot of us. yes,it gets lonely here sometimes. but it seems like the whole country is turning so conservative that it's hard to know where an old hippy can feel comfy anymore.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:23 (099927)

john, what is 'fat back'? i realize oddball threads are being started by such questions, but i really want to know!

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:27 (099929)

wendy, this is about a week old, but what is poutine? i guess you asked because you didn't know, but now my curiosity is piqued. i don't think you got an answer to your question. do you have any hints? where did you hear this word?

nancy
.
p.s. say, you don't mean the head of russia, do you?
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:32 (099932)

i'm in southern maine, paula. there's enough variety for an old hippie to feel plenty comfortable, and also enough variety to avoid feeling smothered by being surrounded only by people who believe as you do about everything (why i left cambridge, mass., after many years).

maybe georgia needs you, though...?

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/12/02 at 17:49 (099936)

Jersey's pretty liberal, too, guys--we haven't sent a Republican to the senate for over 30 years. I don't think as much of the country is going conservative as it sometimes seems--they just get more press. I've actually heard that the trend is moving in the opposite direction recently, but can't remember where.

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 18:09 (099939)

Nancy, you make me laugh.

Poutine was something that mystified me for a while. If we go to A & W (I think you have A & W in America - it's like McDonalds)...there is something on the menu called Poutine.

Apparently it's popular in Quebec (maybe in other parts of Eastern Canada). I think it is something like a mixture of cheeze whiz and gravy (to be eaten on french fries). Sounds positively barf-inducing to me.

I can cope with fries on gravy (evidentally not popular in California according to an American cousin of ours, who freaked when the waitress here asked if he wanted gravy on his fries) - I can cope with vinegar on fries (also popular) or ketchup. But not poutine. I have never seen it or tried it.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 18:15 (099940)

when i was in rural new england decades ago, the locals were on the whole, live and let live. not too judgemental. friendly in a reserved sort of way. and i learned the term 'jog' for a slight turn in the road. the south does need me, if only to teach them this term. i got directions lately and it took the person five minutes to describe a jog to the left.

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

Carole C in NOLA on 11/12/02 at 18:45 (099944)

I think you're right that the country isn't going conservative. It seems like I'm getting more conservative, and my friends and co-workers are getting more conservative. But then, we are also getting older. My adult daughter (who looks just like a younger version of me, and lives in Oregon) is getting more liberal and leftist every moment. When I talk to her on the phone, I have to take a deep breath and smile before changing the subject when she starts in on political matters. She reminds me so much of myself at that age.

I guess that's the way these things work. The younger generation is infusing the country with leftist thoughts as fast as the older generation can move to the right. Seems to me that that is how it was back in the sixties too, when my political ideas were quite a bit further left than they are today.

Here in the south, politics are a little more complicated. Southern Democrats don't vote Democratic all the time any more, nor do they crowd solidly into the Republican camp. They are still a big voting block but tend to cross party lines. It really doesn't matter since we don't have primaries here anyway. Also, in Louisiana we have a strong contingent on the extreme right wing but they've always been that way on certain issues. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Carole C

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

Nancy N on 11/12/02 at 18:51 (099949)

My parents and I are on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum. I don't think they were ever liberal, though. I cringe every time politics come up in discussion with them. I've made some rapid departures after big family meals as a result, because it's too painful either to sit there and listen or to start what would be an unpleasant debate.

I don't remember where I read that we're moving away from conservatism as a society, but I did see it recently. The shift is apparently happening with women primarily.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 18:57 (099953)

Thank you for asking, Nancy, and so diplomatically given that my statement seemed, at best, elitist.
I don't define 'weirdos', not personally anyway. I only use the word as it has been used towards me when I'm visiting more traditional areas of the country. Maybe I shouldn't even say areas - I should say people. Most of the folks I grew up with in the midwest think that California is full of 'weirdos' - their word. They define weirdos as druggies hanging out at the beach or cruising for more drugs on garishly-lit boulevards. Or folks who may not be 'all there' who are walking around loudly spouting philosophies to a non-existant companion. Or men prancing about in women's clothing, fast cars, loose women and so on and so on. Many think that California is a bastion of loose and immoral behavior. And what (they think) allows so much loose behavior? Liberals. But California is not run by liberals any more than it is run by conservatives. And being liberal does not mean supporting aforementioned behaviors. My point would be that there is a solid base of folks who raise their families with traditional/conservative methods no matter what their political beliefs. We don't all want liberals in office and we don't all want conservatives in office. What I have trouble with is the stigma others attach to California by using the word liberal and then painting all of it's citizens with that brush. We're as much hearth and home as the next state is.
Clear as mud, am I not? Am I in deeper now?

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 19:01 (099955)

Well I over-reacted and sounded less-than-nice to Californians who are liberals - but here's the thing; generalizing always hurts somebody. Generalizing about women, men, liberals, conservatives, Californians, Christians or overweight people...it doesn't matter - it always hurts somebody. When generalizing occurs on this board, someone will inevitably express some hurt. Something else that hurts is when jokes are made after someone has expressed a sensitivity. Joking tends to make light of those expressions.
I personally do not believe that liberals are nasty. I have no more feelings about liberals than I do about conservatives. I just don't like being catagorized.
Whatever happened to middle-of-the-road? Why generalize at all? Can I be liberal-thinking in one area and conservative in another? Can I play baseball one afternoon and sew curtains or bake a cake the next? Can I question war but support the need to eliminate the Saddams of the world? Can I support equal rights and happily be a homemaker? Can I build a deck while my husband cooks dinner one day and cook dinner while my husband builds a deck the next? Can I keep toy guns away from my growing sons while buying them Tonka trucks and teddy bears? Can I believe in God without believing in church? Can I be really pissed off about supporting illegal aliens in this country while understanding their individual needs to better their lives? Can I believe that abortion is an extremely bad choice but support a women's need to choose?
Like everyone else in the world, I think I am unique and that's why I hate labeling and generalizing. I guess I get a little testy.
I sincerely apologize to those of you very, very good folks whom I'm offended.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 19:53 (099966)

calf is very big wth lots of little micro worlds. i was amazed when i moved there from the south to find redneck types. thought i'd left that behind. i once lived at a clothing optional hippy hot springs community. two miles away was a very conservative redneck type town. the townfolk never came to the community, which was open to the public and attracted guests from san fran. town folk knew it existed in a vague sort of way and that was always neat to me. i felt like i was living in the mists of avalon, a magic world hidden in plain view. a few miles away was a gated suburban type community.

Re: On generalizing

Carole C in NOLA on 11/12/02 at 20:13 (099970)

I didn't think you were offensive. But I do agree that while generalizing is sometimes helpful, often it can be a problem.

I think it's part of our biological/psychological make-up, that humans feel an urge to categorize things and find better understanding of things by pushing them into categories. But as you point out, this doesn't really work when one is categorizing people, who are individuals... unlike round pegs versus square pegs, and so on, which are more easily categorized. Still, we do it. It's only human. :)

Carole C

Re: Just because

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 21:29 (099976)

I like you Judy.

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 21:31 (099977)

I have hung up on my mother once during my adult life. It was during a conversation about politics. We no longer discuss anything related even remotely to politics.

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/13/02 at 06:48 (099997)

Yes, some of us feel that this obstruction on so many fronts is childish and not constructive and detrimental to the democratic process. Bush is very popular, but we really haven't seen the full impact of his presidency yet. Hopefully we will soon.

Don't count on Louisiana to increase the Republican majority in the Senate, though. It really looks like the Democratic incumbent candidate for Senate, Mary Landrieu, is going to win. The Republican candidate in the run-off so far does not even have the support of our Republican governor though she is working on him.

On the other hand, Landrieu may not get as many votes from our black community as expected. Some of our black state politicians have been urging blacks not to vote in the run-off, since they don't feel that Landrieu has done enough for them.

Elections may be over for most states, but Louisiana politics is never over!

Carole C

Re: On generalizing

john h on 11/13/02 at 11:17 (100023)

Judy: My first and only memory of California is my 3 days in Haight Ashbury in 1968. Iwas on my way to Vietnam and thought might as well see what's happening in that typically California village.I took residence in one of the commuunity boarding houses there. If you wanted to see some 'weirdos' certainly there were a few there in 68. I was sitting in an outdoor cafe on the sidewalk having a salad and tea. Along comes a guy and reaches into my salad with his grubby hands and takes a big scoop and devours it. He did not say a word and neither did I. Yes! that must have been a weirdo.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/13/02 at 11:24 (100025)

How can someone with the name of Landrieu lose a race in the Pelican state Carole? No way jose.

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/13/02 at 11:49 (100027)

You're so right. She's projected to win. Besides, she's the incumbent. So don't expect Louisiana's run-off to increase the Republican hold on the Senate.

Carole C

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/13/02 at 19:21 (100075)

John dear, there was nothing typical about Haight Ashbury in 1968! Although it sounds like your 'salad' experience was typical of Haight Ashbury in 1968 :)
Actually, what do I know? Heck, I was a senior in high school in the middle of Michigan in 1968!

Re: On generalizing

pala on 11/13/02 at 20:35 (100086)

i was one of the weirdos there in 69. i never stole a salad. honest.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:04 (100093)

wendy, i never heard of an A & W, but i get ya on the poutine. i didn't know what it was called, but i think i've had it on fries during our annual drives to michigan through southern ontario. if that's what it was, it wasn't as bad as it sounds! thanks for the education. these days i'm learning about 54 new things a day on the boards. it's exhausting. i just had an enforced break due to phone-line breakdown and so no computer -- but i did miss it....
nancy
p.s. if you can stomach vinegar on fries you're a better woman than i am -- well, and probably for a number of other reasons too!
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:06 (100095)

your report of the person taking 5 minutes to describe a jog to the left made me laugh too hard, and now i'll never wind down and get to sleep.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:10 (100097)

no judy, i read both posts and you're not in deeper. i understood them both, and appreciated them too.
nancy
.

Re: On generalizing

wendyn on 11/13/02 at 23:24 (100104)

Judy, that's the year I was born.

Just thought I'd really make your day!

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/14/02 at 05:44 (100114)

Hey now, fries with vinegar are wonderful! Especially if it's malt vinegar, but apple cider vinegar will do, too. After all, malt vinegar is an essential part of the 'chips' experience in the UK. And I grew up with cider vinegar on my fries at the county fair back in PA Dutch country. I'd take vinegar over ketchup any day. (Of course, this does not go for any sort of seasoned fries, which I'm sure would taste miserable with vinegar).

What can I say, it's that Dutchie streak coming out again!

(Now, the idea of gravy fries grosses my grandmother out, though I love them. If she puts gravy on her mashed potatoes, why does it sound awful to her on fries? I'm not sure. And cheese works for me, too. Now that I think about it, there's entirely too much that works with me for fries!!!)

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/14/02 at 09:01 (100127)

, when i first moved to georgia a roomate seemed to be frying lettuce in fatback. when i stood in the kitchen staring in bewilderment and awe, she offered me some. no thanks, had some lettuce and grease for breakfast, really. i'm full. thanks. also, when i moved here i got addicted to the rural southern restaurants and ate almost nothing else the first year but pinto beans, collards, and corn bread. had never had a grit before, had never had fried okra. i was also the rudest driver here for a while. then i got polite. and then lots of northern drivers moved here. i'm all confused now. i sorta lurch back and forth between the old south politeness on the road and revberting back to my new york roots.

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/14/02 at 10:06 (100135)

oooohhhhh Wendy-girl, you got me good!

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/14/02 at 10:38 (100142)

Did not A & W make root beer?

Re: On generalizing

john h on 11/14/02 at 10:42 (100143)

Wendy-Judy has a very long memory-you will pay---

Re: On generalizing

pala on 11/14/02 at 11:12 (100145)

my friend from alabama was looking at this board and corrected the pronunciation . he says it is called a moon pah. course, he also has been trying to teach me to pronounce the city we now live in correctly, atlanta georgia . i just can't get it. you have to close your eyes half way , and say real slow, lana georg and then sorto go into a coma as you trail off on the ia.

Re: Different opinions

Suzanne D on 11/14/02 at 12:12 (100146)

Yes, A&W makes root beer. There is an A&W fast food restaurant near where my daughter takes dance class. The root beer (or other soft drinks) are dispensed in frosted, heavy mugs. My daughter doesn't like root beer, but she likes the mugs for other soft drinks. They also sell hamburgers and such.

They are teamed with a Long John Silvers, I believe (I'll have to notice tonight when I take her to class). One half of the restaurant sells the fish, etc., and the other side sells the A&W products.

Suzanne :-)

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/15/02 at 05:36 (100221)

Ewww, now, I don't know about this fried lettuce thing. I think you could keep that one.

I think I had the opposite experience from you when I moved to NJ. I could tell just after being here for a month or two that my driving had changed, because I went back to my home town and was definitely driving differently than they were. In some ways, I think that's actually made me a better driver--but in some ways I'm sure I'm not (I'm less patient now, for instance). Strange how different locations can change you so much!

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/04/02 at 02:28 (099239)

Necee, I think you might be referring to my post about Clinton and the role of the media. The intention was to point out that in any public/political event or affair, there is always more than meets the eye, and that the newspapers and television have a considerable, if not always acknowledged, effect on the way we form our opinions.

ALL our opinions, including mine.

I agree that differences of opinion are good, but I feel it is vital that we be aware of the role of the media in the manipulation of our opinions. Much of our freedom in our free society may depend on that vigilance.

The post wasn't intended harshly, and you are right that it wasn't meant to attack anyone, and I'm sorry if it upset you.

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/04/02 at 11:40 (099280)

Yeah, but you also said Clinton was a relatively good president. I say he was a very bad president, and he ain't no relative of mine. :-)

As for the U. S. press, sure, things are different from the Kennedy era and it can't help but overblow sex, but that aside, everyone knows that overall the press is much more biased against Republicans, almost by definition.

Regarding Bush, sure, he might oversimplify some arguments, but I agree with him that people like Saddam should go, and give him credit for being just about the only one willing to do something about it. In my eyes, it it the position of those advocating doing just about nothing that is dangerous. Oh, I almost forgot, the very effective United Nations will handle such problems for us; silly me. :-)

Hey, we all got our opinions. :-)

[]

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/04/02 at 11:51 (099281)

Elliott, I've asked you twice on these message boards what state you live in... I guess you don't want to say since you didn't answer. But do you live in the US?

Just curious. If you do, then like us you may have quite an election coming up tomorrow.

Carole C

Re: Different opinions

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/04/02 at 14:13 (099297)

Elliott:

We still are not sure who Clinton was related to due to his social exploits. Despite that, we can be probably be more certain that the two of us are distant relatives with little or no relationship to Bill Clinton.

Clinton had a lot of charisma and, in turn, a measure of popularity. Ultimately -- let history judge. We may be suffering, now, from some of the economic excesses of his administration and his lack of attention to details of national security.
Ed

Re: To: Julie, Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 14:24 (099299)

No need to apoligize Julie, you are intitled to your opinion like anyone else here.
I was referring to every post that was made regarding this discussion, not just yours in particular. Having said that, the only problem I had with your post was.....telling me more or less that I was wrong in my thinking.

Happy trails....
Necee

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 14:26 (099301)

Thank you Dr. Ed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very well stated.

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/04/02 at 15:29 (099313)

It's not a secret, I've said several times before on these boards where I live, but you keep asking me if I live in the U.S. smack in the middle of another thread seemingly having nothing to do with it that I can't help but ponder whether my post sounded to you like I'm from outer space. So I'm returning the favour, er, favor, and letting you ponder things too. :-)

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/04/02 at 17:09 (099328)

What one thinks of the goodness or badness of Clinton's presidency is, genuinely, a matter of opinion. That the media manipulate information with the aim of influencing our opinions is a fact. That is all I was trying to say.

Re: Different opinions

caryn z on 11/04/02 at 17:22 (099332)

heh Elliott, your spelling is a dead giveaway is 'eh' in your vocabulary at all neighbour!!

what fun :)

cheers Caryn

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/04/02 at 18:28 (099341)

Good dodge, Mystery Man. :)

Carole C

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/04/02 at 22:56 (099383)

In my opinion, the media simply makes things public. It's the 'people in the news' who do the manipulating trying to keep their little lies and scandals out of the public eye, that is a fact.
nuf said on this issue....

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/04/02 at 23:00 (099386)

Elliott - I don't remember you EVER saying where you lived.

Of course, I may have missed it - but it sounds like EVERYONE missed it.

Are you familiar with these gubernatorial things - or maybe you know what poutine is? Not that I know how to spell poutine.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 00:07 (099390)

in my opinion, the media *choose* what to make public and what to emphasize (i've personally seen them do it, actually, more times than i can count), and they manipulate facts and rumors just as do many individuals in the public eye, be they republicans, democrats, independents, christians, buddhists, jews, muslims, jehovah's witnesses -- the whole human gamut.

much of this is human nature and human frailty. the goodness and honesty in many people prevail, no matter what groups they align themselves with, and that's always heartening to see. the lies and manipulation that take place are definitely not heartening, but there is no one group of people that has a corner on moral uprightness, honesty, and so on. in every kind of sociological group that can be named, you will find a variety of people with differing motives and intentions and values and acts of malevolence or of kindness.

in my opinion, the way to be respectful of differing opinions is to acknowledge that truth is a subjective thing and that no one has a direct line to it. we can only do our best to seek it out for ourselves and act according to what we learn.

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/05/02 at 05:36 (099393)

Actually, Necee, it's really not a matter of opinion. The media are a tricky bunch, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. Some of it is simply the nature of the beast (they can't report absolutely everything, so they pick and choose--and this process alone can distort the news).This is why I'm able to teach a 'Media Literacy' course at school--because kids need to be taught to view the news critically, rather than believing everything they see. News in the US can be radically different than what's reported elsewhere, because of various factors that cause the media to report certain things in certain ways that don't apply overseas. Check out the Center for Media Literacy if you're curious.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/05/02 at 10:26 (099417)

Yep it's true, Necee - it's the people who make the news who count. And Julie's right also - the media is pretty darn sneaky at manipulating the depth of those 'stories'. However, I'd like to think that the public is reasonably intelligent in just how much they decide to believe from the media. I'd like to think that I, for instance, can decide for myself what I want to believe about a public figure.

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/05/02 at 11:55 (099430)

Yes, Judy I agree with you 100%. We are not zombies, we do have the ability to reason, and understand the issues. When something makes 'the news', its completely our own individual choice to believe it or not, regardless of how it was presented to us. Sure sounds like slander to me if news stories were made public that were unfounded.

Happy trails....

Necee

Re: Different opinions

Necee on 11/05/02 at 12:01 (099432)

And another thing......I'll say this...yes, the media does a lot of manipulating, if it wasn't for that, we'd probably never know about all the lies, and misconduct.

Happy trails...

Necee

Re: Different opinions

Richard, C.Ped on 11/05/02 at 13:12 (099440)

I agree as well that the media plays a factor in manipulation. What really stands out in my mind was watching Peter Jennings criticize President Bush for not telling people where he was right after the 9/11 attack. I watched Jennings basically give no respect to Bush at all after all that. Personally, I didn't think we should have known where he was for saftey reasons. Some of the media can be very biased in their reports. Others do a pretty good job. I think we are all intelligent enough to form an opinion on our own. That is a good thing, because I am usually watching Clifford, Barney or some other children's show with my daughter instead of watching the news. haha!
Richard, C.Ped

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 14:23 (099447)

such as iran/contra? i'd like to have known a lot more about those lies and that misconduct, and seen appropriate responsibility and action taken, than about the sex life of one president. what could be wrong with this picture....

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/05/02 at 16:36 (099453)

I'm not sure the thrill of highlighting all your faulty memories is worth my coming out of the closet :-), but check these out:

threads/56105.html

bbt.cgi?n=65716

Wendyn, you contributed to the first thread and appeared on Heelspurs later the same day as the second thread. There may be more, any on Social being precluded from a search. I recall at least one other thread, a prominent one no less, in which I said where I live: After Tammie's troublesome surgery, I suggested she consider flying to my city to see some nerve specialists here, and I volunteered to pick her up from the airport. Julie, no doubt you've been respecting my privacy up till now, but I'm sure you remember, since you pointed out that my offer to Tammie was a generous one (hey, what a guy! :-)). I hereby give you permission to tell them you remember (Julie, my dearest good friend, you wouldn't let me down now, wouldja?!?).

Now that I've spilled the beans, can you tell me, Carole C, just what the connection in your mind is between a post of mine and your asking, in what seems non sequitur fashion, where I live? I just gotta know!

[]

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/05/02 at 18:23 (099461)

carole must be creative. creative minds come up with non sequiturs all the time and keep life interesting.

so . . . baltimore. that might explain a couple of things -- but i doubt it!

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/05/02 at 20:12 (099467)

Elliott - you are correct. I was in that thread...Baltimore. I have no idea where Baltimore is. Now I will have to go look that up on Google too.

Re: Different opinions

Jim C on 11/05/02 at 20:37 (099468)

I would liked to have known more also, but with the Clinton scandal, it all boiled down to Linda Tripp. Without her it problaly wouldn't have been as big a story. I geuss the Iran/Contra people kept better secrets!
You have to remember that the media is for profit and they tend to report what sells papers and ratings. And when a major event happens, anything related is the next hot story, which gives the impression of a epidemic, such as plane crashes, children being kidnapped, the west nile virus story is a great example. My 9 year old was afraid to go outside this summer because of fear of getting it, but in reality he had a much greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident.

Jim

Re: Different opinions

Julie on 11/06/02 at 03:09 (099482)

Elliott, I'm deeply honoured to be considered your dearest good friend. I do remember that thread, and I still think it was great of you to make that offer to Tammie. I wish she had taken it up.

And yes, I did remember. I just didn't want to spoil the fun.

Cheers!

Re: Different opinions

Suzanne D on 11/06/02 at 12:13 (099510)

I remembered, too, Elliott, as you were kind enough to mail me that article on PF several months ago. You had no return address, but there was the cancelled stamp with the place from which it was mailed.

I thought I remembered from the thread with the offer to Tammie as well, but it was not my place to reveal your hometown, so I didn't. :-)

By the way, are you now able to tell us any more about that math article of yours which is to be published someday?

Suzanne :-)

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:00 (099565)

Neece: Sadam got elected with 100% of the vote. How about that for popularity.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:13 (099567)

George W is the first President since Roosevelt to not lose any Senators or Reps from his party and in fact gained control of both houses. He carries the highest approval rating ever for a President at midpoint in his term. He started slow by has that something that attracts many people. Similar to Regan. I think the major problem the Democrats had in this election was the obstruction of anything the President proposed by Tom Daschel in the Senate. We had hundreds of judical appointments he would not even bring to a vote even though most would have easily been confirmed by both Democrats and Republicans. We still do not even have a budget because of the Senate, No Home Land Security Agency, no agreement on prescription drugs for seniors because we could not even bring it to a vote because of the Senate leadership. At least things should be voted up or down. I think we will began to see some movement not because we have a couple of more Republicans but because it is apparent the people are sick of obstruction for the sake of obstruction.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:24 (099568)

Ed: Bill did not carry Arkansas in the 2nd election. His problems with women was very common knowleged here in our little state way before he became a candidate for President. He was our Attorney General and Governor. His Library is currently under construction here in Little Rock and will be the largest of all the Libraries. It will contain an apartment. Part of the Library will also be a very large lake home in Hot Springs. I do not understand how that is part of the Library but it is. He remains a very controversal figure in Arkansas and generally speaking is not very popular. I do think Hillary has been back since he went out of office. Arkansas is a very rural and conservative state and I continue to be supprised at some to the very Liberal national politicians we produce such as Fullbright and Clinton to some extent. Our new Senator Mark Pryor would be considered a Republican in a state like California. His father was a popular Governor and 3 term Senator from Arkansas. I think he will be one who will attempt to get things done in the Senate and not be an obstructionist. Do any of you remember our famous Senator Wilbur Mills and the Fanny Fox incident?

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/07/02 at 11:27 (099569)

Ultimately history will be the final judge of Bill Clinton. We are all to close to the situation. Fifty years from now it would be interesting to see what history books have to say about his Presidency.

Re: Different opinions

elliott on 11/07/02 at 14:39 (099586)

So basically--as I suspected--just about everyone on the board remembered what city I live in except for Carole and Wendy, two of the brightest minds here. :-) Suzanne, pay no attention to that cancelled stamp; I intentionally travelled halfway around the country before mailing it. :-)

Math article? Thanks for asking. I sent them the final electronic version two months ago, and they had no complaints; now we wait. The editor had said he wants it to appear sooner rather than later, as he wants the readers to have fresh in their minds a recent article in the same journal I quoted as a reference. I'd guess 3-7 months. Not sure I should divulge which journal it will be in; not only will it name my city, but also my last name, place of employment, maybe even an email address. Oh my gosh! What have I done?!?

[]

Re: Different opinions

Ed Davis, DPM on 11/07/02 at 21:33 (099608)

I remember Senator Mills -- your state really has some colorful politicians. Fulbright was amazing. His politics was only slightly to the right of Nikita Kruschev. How on earth did people in your state elect somewhat like him?
Ed

Re: They had no choice

Valerie S on 11/09/02 at 07:55 (099658)

There was only one candidate and the people were forced to vote or suffer the consequences.... literally... FORCED to vote for him.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 12:36 (099885)

I'm a bit late to this particular conversation but I wanted to add a thought about California. It continues to surprise me how so many folks in more traditionally conservative regions continue to think that California is a kettle full of boiling liberals or just-plain weirdos. That's actually not the case overall. Well, all right, we DO have Hollywood!
But the fact is that the majority of us are hard-working, moderate towards strong, conservative folks. We have white-picket fences, homework, church, dinner, and raise our kids the 'old-fashioned' way. Yes, CA re-elected Gray Davis, but the GOP didn't produce much to work with. We resent our tax dollars and facilities being overused by illegal residents while PC policy-makers make the situation worse, we were angry that the Feds didn't help us when Gray Davis made a mess out of the energy crisis......and so on and so on. Probably the most 'out there' thing we do that is not so common towards the east is that we pursue athletic or other physical activities a lot of the time, year-round - male and female alike. The actual amount of 'weirdos' in California is quite small and their reputation and presence is due largely to the weather. And none of the rest of us want them in our neighborhoods. Also, the last president we produced was Ronald Reagan.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/12/02 at 13:04 (099891)

Well, bless your little heart Judy. Come on out here in Arkansas with all us conservatives and let us fix you a mess of collard greens and fat back. y'll fit rite in. hurry on down here and get way from those nasty liberals.

col john

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 15:34 (099912)

liberal progressive radicals are lookin mighty good to me, sittin here in the heart of dixie.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 15:59 (099917)

as a liberal weirdo from california, i can honestly say we are seldom boiling. i am assuming this was descriptive, as opposed to cooking directions.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 16:40 (099923)

must get lonely sometimes down there, paula! come on up here if you ultimately can't take it. this used to be the conservative nest of the northeast, but no longer. it's getting more well-rounded by the minute.

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:16 (099925)

judy, i'm just curious -- aside from hollywood, of course! -- what do you think of as a 'weirdo'? in our new town/neighborhood, which we chose to move to with great relief, there are lots of people some might consider weirdos, but the variety for me is a huge breath of fresh air. i can breathe for the first time in ages. for the most part they do not include criminals or parasites -- just lots of variety. they may not be leading white-pickett-fence lives, but they have a lot going for them and are very interesting. i'm just curious how you define 'weirdo.'

nancy
,

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 17:21 (099926)

where are you nancy? i'll bring all the liberal weirdos with me from georgia. there won't be a lot of us. yes,it gets lonely here sometimes. but it seems like the whole country is turning so conservative that it's hard to know where an old hippy can feel comfy anymore.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:23 (099927)

john, what is 'fat back'? i realize oddball threads are being started by such questions, but i really want to know!

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:27 (099929)

wendy, this is about a week old, but what is poutine? i guess you asked because you didn't know, but now my curiosity is piqued. i don't think you got an answer to your question. do you have any hints? where did you hear this word?

nancy
.
p.s. say, you don't mean the head of russia, do you?
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/12/02 at 17:32 (099932)

i'm in southern maine, paula. there's enough variety for an old hippie to feel plenty comfortable, and also enough variety to avoid feeling smothered by being surrounded only by people who believe as you do about everything (why i left cambridge, mass., after many years).

maybe georgia needs you, though...?

nancy
.

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/12/02 at 17:49 (099936)

Jersey's pretty liberal, too, guys--we haven't sent a Republican to the senate for over 30 years. I don't think as much of the country is going conservative as it sometimes seems--they just get more press. I've actually heard that the trend is moving in the opposite direction recently, but can't remember where.

Re: Different opinions

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 18:09 (099939)

Nancy, you make me laugh.

Poutine was something that mystified me for a while. If we go to A & W (I think you have A & W in America - it's like McDonalds)...there is something on the menu called Poutine.

Apparently it's popular in Quebec (maybe in other parts of Eastern Canada). I think it is something like a mixture of cheeze whiz and gravy (to be eaten on french fries). Sounds positively barf-inducing to me.

I can cope with fries on gravy (evidentally not popular in California according to an American cousin of ours, who freaked when the waitress here asked if he wanted gravy on his fries) - I can cope with vinegar on fries (also popular) or ketchup. But not poutine. I have never seen it or tried it.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 18:15 (099940)

when i was in rural new england decades ago, the locals were on the whole, live and let live. not too judgemental. friendly in a reserved sort of way. and i learned the term 'jog' for a slight turn in the road. the south does need me, if only to teach them this term. i got directions lately and it took the person five minutes to describe a jog to the left.

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

Carole C in NOLA on 11/12/02 at 18:45 (099944)

I think you're right that the country isn't going conservative. It seems like I'm getting more conservative, and my friends and co-workers are getting more conservative. But then, we are also getting older. My adult daughter (who looks just like a younger version of me, and lives in Oregon) is getting more liberal and leftist every moment. When I talk to her on the phone, I have to take a deep breath and smile before changing the subject when she starts in on political matters. She reminds me so much of myself at that age.

I guess that's the way these things work. The younger generation is infusing the country with leftist thoughts as fast as the older generation can move to the right. Seems to me that that is how it was back in the sixties too, when my political ideas were quite a bit further left than they are today.

Here in the south, politics are a little more complicated. Southern Democrats don't vote Democratic all the time any more, nor do they crowd solidly into the Republican camp. They are still a big voting block but tend to cross party lines. It really doesn't matter since we don't have primaries here anyway. Also, in Louisiana we have a strong contingent on the extreme right wing but they've always been that way on certain issues. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Carole C

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

Nancy N on 11/12/02 at 18:51 (099949)

My parents and I are on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum. I don't think they were ever liberal, though. I cringe every time politics come up in discussion with them. I've made some rapid departures after big family meals as a result, because it's too painful either to sit there and listen or to start what would be an unpleasant debate.

I don't remember where I read that we're moving away from conservatism as a society, but I did see it recently. The shift is apparently happening with women primarily.

Re: Different opinions

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 18:57 (099953)

Thank you for asking, Nancy, and so diplomatically given that my statement seemed, at best, elitist.
I don't define 'weirdos', not personally anyway. I only use the word as it has been used towards me when I'm visiting more traditional areas of the country. Maybe I shouldn't even say areas - I should say people. Most of the folks I grew up with in the midwest think that California is full of 'weirdos' - their word. They define weirdos as druggies hanging out at the beach or cruising for more drugs on garishly-lit boulevards. Or folks who may not be 'all there' who are walking around loudly spouting philosophies to a non-existant companion. Or men prancing about in women's clothing, fast cars, loose women and so on and so on. Many think that California is a bastion of loose and immoral behavior. And what (they think) allows so much loose behavior? Liberals. But California is not run by liberals any more than it is run by conservatives. And being liberal does not mean supporting aforementioned behaviors. My point would be that there is a solid base of folks who raise their families with traditional/conservative methods no matter what their political beliefs. We don't all want liberals in office and we don't all want conservatives in office. What I have trouble with is the stigma others attach to California by using the word liberal and then painting all of it's citizens with that brush. We're as much hearth and home as the next state is.
Clear as mud, am I not? Am I in deeper now?

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/12/02 at 19:01 (099955)

Well I over-reacted and sounded less-than-nice to Californians who are liberals - but here's the thing; generalizing always hurts somebody. Generalizing about women, men, liberals, conservatives, Californians, Christians or overweight people...it doesn't matter - it always hurts somebody. When generalizing occurs on this board, someone will inevitably express some hurt. Something else that hurts is when jokes are made after someone has expressed a sensitivity. Joking tends to make light of those expressions.
I personally do not believe that liberals are nasty. I have no more feelings about liberals than I do about conservatives. I just don't like being catagorized.
Whatever happened to middle-of-the-road? Why generalize at all? Can I be liberal-thinking in one area and conservative in another? Can I play baseball one afternoon and sew curtains or bake a cake the next? Can I question war but support the need to eliminate the Saddams of the world? Can I support equal rights and happily be a homemaker? Can I build a deck while my husband cooks dinner one day and cook dinner while my husband builds a deck the next? Can I keep toy guns away from my growing sons while buying them Tonka trucks and teddy bears? Can I believe in God without believing in church? Can I be really pissed off about supporting illegal aliens in this country while understanding their individual needs to better their lives? Can I believe that abortion is an extremely bad choice but support a women's need to choose?
Like everyone else in the world, I think I am unique and that's why I hate labeling and generalizing. I guess I get a little testy.
I sincerely apologize to those of you very, very good folks whom I'm offended.

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/12/02 at 19:53 (099966)

calf is very big wth lots of little micro worlds. i was amazed when i moved there from the south to find redneck types. thought i'd left that behind. i once lived at a clothing optional hippy hot springs community. two miles away was a very conservative redneck type town. the townfolk never came to the community, which was open to the public and attracted guests from san fran. town folk knew it existed in a vague sort of way and that was always neat to me. i felt like i was living in the mists of avalon, a magic world hidden in plain view. a few miles away was a gated suburban type community.

Re: On generalizing

Carole C in NOLA on 11/12/02 at 20:13 (099970)

I didn't think you were offensive. But I do agree that while generalizing is sometimes helpful, often it can be a problem.

I think it's part of our biological/psychological make-up, that humans feel an urge to categorize things and find better understanding of things by pushing them into categories. But as you point out, this doesn't really work when one is categorizing people, who are individuals... unlike round pegs versus square pegs, and so on, which are more easily categorized. Still, we do it. It's only human. :)

Carole C

Re: Just because

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 21:29 (099976)

I like you Judy.

Re: the more we change, the more we stay the same

wendyn on 11/12/02 at 21:31 (099977)

I have hung up on my mother once during my adult life. It was during a conversation about politics. We no longer discuss anything related even remotely to politics.

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/13/02 at 06:48 (099997)

Yes, some of us feel that this obstruction on so many fronts is childish and not constructive and detrimental to the democratic process. Bush is very popular, but we really haven't seen the full impact of his presidency yet. Hopefully we will soon.

Don't count on Louisiana to increase the Republican majority in the Senate, though. It really looks like the Democratic incumbent candidate for Senate, Mary Landrieu, is going to win. The Republican candidate in the run-off so far does not even have the support of our Republican governor though she is working on him.

On the other hand, Landrieu may not get as many votes from our black community as expected. Some of our black state politicians have been urging blacks not to vote in the run-off, since they don't feel that Landrieu has done enough for them.

Elections may be over for most states, but Louisiana politics is never over!

Carole C

Re: On generalizing

john h on 11/13/02 at 11:17 (100023)

Judy: My first and only memory of California is my 3 days in Haight Ashbury in 1968. Iwas on my way to Vietnam and thought might as well see what's happening in that typically California village.I took residence in one of the commuunity boarding houses there. If you wanted to see some 'weirdos' certainly there were a few there in 68. I was sitting in an outdoor cafe on the sidewalk having a salad and tea. Along comes a guy and reaches into my salad with his grubby hands and takes a big scoop and devours it. He did not say a word and neither did I. Yes! that must have been a weirdo.

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/13/02 at 11:24 (100025)

How can someone with the name of Landrieu lose a race in the Pelican state Carole? No way jose.

Re: Different opinions

Carole C in NOLA on 11/13/02 at 11:49 (100027)

You're so right. She's projected to win. Besides, she's the incumbent. So don't expect Louisiana's run-off to increase the Republican hold on the Senate.

Carole C

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/13/02 at 19:21 (100075)

John dear, there was nothing typical about Haight Ashbury in 1968! Although it sounds like your 'salad' experience was typical of Haight Ashbury in 1968 :)
Actually, what do I know? Heck, I was a senior in high school in the middle of Michigan in 1968!

Re: On generalizing

pala on 11/13/02 at 20:35 (100086)

i was one of the weirdos there in 69. i never stole a salad. honest.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:04 (100093)

wendy, i never heard of an A & W, but i get ya on the poutine. i didn't know what it was called, but i think i've had it on fries during our annual drives to michigan through southern ontario. if that's what it was, it wasn't as bad as it sounds! thanks for the education. these days i'm learning about 54 new things a day on the boards. it's exhausting. i just had an enforced break due to phone-line breakdown and so no computer -- but i did miss it....
nancy
p.s. if you can stomach vinegar on fries you're a better woman than i am -- well, and probably for a number of other reasons too!
.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:06 (100095)

your report of the person taking 5 minutes to describe a jog to the left made me laugh too hard, and now i'll never wind down and get to sleep.

Re: Different opinions

nancy s. on 11/13/02 at 22:10 (100097)

no judy, i read both posts and you're not in deeper. i understood them both, and appreciated them too.
nancy
.

Re: On generalizing

wendyn on 11/13/02 at 23:24 (100104)

Judy, that's the year I was born.

Just thought I'd really make your day!

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/14/02 at 05:44 (100114)

Hey now, fries with vinegar are wonderful! Especially if it's malt vinegar, but apple cider vinegar will do, too. After all, malt vinegar is an essential part of the 'chips' experience in the UK. And I grew up with cider vinegar on my fries at the county fair back in PA Dutch country. I'd take vinegar over ketchup any day. (Of course, this does not go for any sort of seasoned fries, which I'm sure would taste miserable with vinegar).

What can I say, it's that Dutchie streak coming out again!

(Now, the idea of gravy fries grosses my grandmother out, though I love them. If she puts gravy on her mashed potatoes, why does it sound awful to her on fries? I'm not sure. And cheese works for me, too. Now that I think about it, there's entirely too much that works with me for fries!!!)

Re: Different opinions

pala on 11/14/02 at 09:01 (100127)

, when i first moved to georgia a roomate seemed to be frying lettuce in fatback. when i stood in the kitchen staring in bewilderment and awe, she offered me some. no thanks, had some lettuce and grease for breakfast, really. i'm full. thanks. also, when i moved here i got addicted to the rural southern restaurants and ate almost nothing else the first year but pinto beans, collards, and corn bread. had never had a grit before, had never had fried okra. i was also the rudest driver here for a while. then i got polite. and then lots of northern drivers moved here. i'm all confused now. i sorta lurch back and forth between the old south politeness on the road and revberting back to my new york roots.

Re: On generalizing

JudyS on 11/14/02 at 10:06 (100135)

oooohhhhh Wendy-girl, you got me good!

Re: Different opinions

john h on 11/14/02 at 10:38 (100142)

Did not A & W make root beer?

Re: On generalizing

john h on 11/14/02 at 10:42 (100143)

Wendy-Judy has a very long memory-you will pay---

Re: On generalizing

pala on 11/14/02 at 11:12 (100145)

my friend from alabama was looking at this board and corrected the pronunciation . he says it is called a moon pah. course, he also has been trying to teach me to pronounce the city we now live in correctly, atlanta georgia . i just can't get it. you have to close your eyes half way , and say real slow, lana georg and then sorto go into a coma as you trail off on the ia.

Re: Different opinions

Suzanne D on 11/14/02 at 12:12 (100146)

Yes, A&W makes root beer. There is an A&W fast food restaurant near where my daughter takes dance class. The root beer (or other soft drinks) are dispensed in frosted, heavy mugs. My daughter doesn't like root beer, but she likes the mugs for other soft drinks. They also sell hamburgers and such.

They are teamed with a Long John Silvers, I believe (I'll have to notice tonight when I take her to class). One half of the restaurant sells the fish, etc., and the other side sells the A&W products.

Suzanne :-)

Re: Different opinions

Nancy N on 11/15/02 at 05:36 (100221)

Ewww, now, I don't know about this fried lettuce thing. I think you could keep that one.

I think I had the opposite experience from you when I moved to NJ. I could tell just after being here for a month or two that my driving had changed, because I went back to my home town and was definitely driving differently than they were. In some ways, I think that's actually made me a better driver--but in some ways I'm sure I'm not (I'm less patient now, for instance). Strange how different locations can change you so much!