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Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Posted by elliott on 11/13/02 at 08:52 (100007)

Please think about the following and give your comments:

Suzanne D, a wonderful teacher, tells her class that one day next week they'll be getting a quiz, and the quiz will be a surprise. Rather than get nervous, her class, a shrewd bunch (after all, they were taught by the best), reasons that it is impossible for them to be given the quiz:

It can't be on Friday, because if Thursday's class comes and goes and they still haven't had the quiz, they would know the quiz would be on Friday and then it wouldn't be a surprise. So Friday is ruled out. But then it can't be on Thursday either, since come Wednesday night, they would know it has to be on Thursday and again it wouldn't be a surprise. Using similar reasoning, they rule out every other day of the week as well.

The class starts to rejoice and they decide not to study, smug in their ironclad reasoning. But then lo and behold, the teach surprises them by giving the quiz, say, on Wednesday. Where did the class' reasoning go wrong (or did it?).

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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Suzanne D on 11/13/02 at 10:52 (100017)

Whew, Elliott! I will think on this when I have more time! :-) But I do like the scenario since the teacher comes out on top!

Now I can see how that Friday would not be a surprise if they get to Thursday and still have not had the quiz. However, on the other days of the week, I am thinking they might not be able to rule it out as easily! For instance, what reasoning would lead them to believe it would not be on Monday or Tuesday...

Like I said, I'll think more later! Right now I have 5 minutes before I must pick up the children from lunch.

We're studying reptiles right now. I always try to 'get into' whatever we're learning, so I am wearing a gold lizard pin which I found at a consignment shop for $2.00. My kids think it's beautiful, but a kindergartner in the bathroom a few minutes ago looked at me and said, 'That is CREEPY!'

One of my first graders commented, 'Well, she just doesn't know much about them yet!'

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/14/02 at 07:55 (100121)

The topic of Moon pies gets 10,000 posts and this gets just about nothing? I once posted this conundrum on a running forum, (with 'teacher' and 'quiz' replaced by 'coach' and 'killer workout'), and it started a long, interesting thread. Sure, moon pies are far more interesting, but...

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Richard, C.Ped on 11/14/02 at 08:26 (100125)

I think that once you tell the kids about the quiz, that blows the element of suprise. Since you want the student's reasoning, I think that they went wrong by thinking they were out smarting the teacher in the first place. The are just children, even if they are in the 12th grade. We have all been there. You think you know so much more than adults. It is good to know that the teacher backed up her promise of giving the test.

I have a feeling that I am way off the mark of what you are asking, but this is the first thing that came to my mind.
Richard, C.Ped

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/14/02 at 14:31 (100157)

elliott, people on runners' forums are probably more awake, what with the endorphins racing around their brains all the time and so on.

people here, many in chronic pain and/or unable to walk as you know, can fixate on moon pies and be highly entertained. it isn't a matter of intelligence or laziness, in case you're thinking that -- just a grasping at whimsy to make life more endurable while pf and other wonderful conditions wreak havoc.

i wanted to study your post, but my endorphin supply ran out a few days ago. by the time it's replenished, you'll probably be off handing out complex assignments to scott or some other higher power and will have forgotten all about this puzzle here.

nancy
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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/14/02 at 20:27 (100178)

ok, hardly anyone's posting tonight and i needed a challenge, so i studied the scenario. (me and my big mouth, earlier.)

i think it isn't the timing of the quiz but the nature or the subject of the quiz that's to be the surprise.

how'd i do?

n.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 02:37 (100218)

Elliott, what went wrong in the the kids' reasoning was that they didn't trust their wonderful teacher, Suzanne D, to do what was best for them. They should have just sat back and enjoyed the suspense. (And the quiz, whenever it popped.)

And Nancy you win this morning's prize for making me laugh out loud. First thing in the morning, that can't be bad.

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 06:37 (100223)

Time moves forward and if the point in time at which the quiz is administered is to be the surprise, no day or time can be ruled out until that time has passed. All the class knows is that the times that are in the past, are no longer available for the surprise quiz. If the quiz was not given on Thursday, it could still be given at 8 AM Friday, 10:13 AM Friday, 2:59 PM Friday, or whenever.

In other words, time is continuous, not discrete, although our system of time measurement would have us believe otherwise. I'm sure this is not 'the official answer', but it's a realistic answer.

Carole C

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 07:24 (100226)

Carole, if it makes you feel better, change the wording to 'the day you get it will be a surprise', or perhaps even better, 'you will not know when I hand it to you that you were going to get it that day'. Now let's see: it can't be on Friday...

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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 07:42 (100228)

No, Julie and others, it doesn't have to do with lack of trust in your teacher. In fact, it has been suggested that in this day and age of lawyers and trivial lawsuits, it wouldn't be beyond the realm to see a child (or his parents) suing the teacher over this and winning.

Note: amazingly, the problem is the same even over the entire school, i.e., the teacher says on the very first day of school that some time this year you will get a pop quiz, and the day you get it will be a surprise. Well, let's see now: it can't be on the very last day of school...

The problem has several incarnations. One, as given here, is the 'surprise examination paradox'. Another is the 'unexpected hanging paradox' (executioner tells prisoner he will be executed one day next week, but that day will be a surpise). I made up another version for that running forum (coach tells team that next week they will get a killer workout they'll never forget, but the day will be a surprise).

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 08:08 (100230)

Gosh, Elliott, now I feel SO much better. You just have no idea. (?)

Carole

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Richard, C.Ped on 11/15/02 at 08:26 (100232)

This reminds me as to why I do not need to be answering these 'thinking' questions. I can not keep up with all of you intellegent people. I guess I have been sniffing to much toe jam and it is burning out all my brain cells. LOL
Richard

Re: Darnit!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 09:31 (100235)

I knew it! I just knew I'd be the one to cop it. Several people post with the friendly, frivolous intention of linking in with your (supposedly) frivolous quiz, and it's me that gets the 'No, Julie' for being 'wrong'. Oh well.

And then it turns out that it was a deadly serious question after all.

Richard, can I join you? I'm just not intelligent enough to keep up with this sort of thing. I should never have said anything.

But Carole, yours was absolutely brilliant, and if you were included in the wrong 'others', you should get a lawyer.

The one thing that shines forth from all this is that Suzanne is indeed a wonderful teacher. I did enormously appreciate your post on how you teach your children about differences in people! Thank you.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Julie on 11/15/02 at 09:34 (100236)

.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:41 (100238)

by announcing the quiz in advance, the teacher cannot truly give a surprise quiz. the kids know it's coming; the fact that they don't know when doesn't define it as a surprise.

when the quiz appears before them, are they going to gasp and cry 'oh no, a quiz! we didn't know we'd be quizzed!'? no, they'll say 'oh, ok, here's that quiz the teacher told us about.'

how'd i do? i want an A+ for effort on this thread. fork it over, elliott.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:48 (100240)

No Julie, you shouldn't ask richard what toe jam is. you should ask any one of us. you must stay for detention after school today!

toe jam is dirt between the toes. no one knows exactly what this dirt is, where it comes from, or how it gets there. but it gets there, and then it gets kind of mushy, presumably from sweat.

it can become very gross if you forget to wash between your toes for a long time -- say, a day and a half.

nancy
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Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:49 (100241)

p.s. to julie: do you have toe jam in england?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:54 (100242)

uh oh. i just reread the whole thread, and i think i stole richard's wrong answer. richard, you don't mind if i steal your answer so long as it's wrong, do you?

n.
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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:59 (100243)

ok, what went wrong with the kids' reasoning is this: it isn't that the quiz won't happen because they 'reasoned' out every day of the week and eliminated them all as possibilities. they should have studied before the week even began, because the quiz could appear on any day at all, monday, friday, or in between. all the days are possibilities.

n.
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Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:06 (100255)

Well, Nancy, if you hadn't told me what toe jam is I wouldn't have known the answer, but you have and I do and the answer is yes, we have plenty of that stuff in England.

I see hundreds of bare toes every week in my classes but I don't look between them very often (if at all) and unlike Richard I don't get close enough to them to get woozy. Hundreds? Let's see. 15 people in each class (on average) four classes a week, that's 60 people, which makes 600 toes (give or take a couple). Or 300 spaces for toe jam.

Oh no it's not. It's only 240.

Something is addling my brain, and it's not toe jam. Maybe it's the ibuprofen I'm swallowing for my sore knee.

Hey - I've just thought of something. Maybe toe jam is what folks who wear Birkenstocks without socks get. What do you think?

I think I should shut up now. Bye.

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:08 (100260)

..and Nancy, if you don't get it, I'd see a lawyer if I were you.

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:11 (100262)

...and Richard gets one too!

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:12 (100263)

An A+++++, not a lawyer. Got to be precise around here.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/15/02 at 11:13 (100264)

Richard I am still hung up thinking about 'what is the meaning of life'? or better yet why do my Cubs end up near last place every year for a half century?

Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:21 (100268)

Oh blast. I really am addled tonight.

I shall have to go back to first grade - which is fine with me as long as I can be in Suzanne's class.

It's 480 spaces of course.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:25 (100269)

John, if you're still wondering about the meaning of life, you probably just haven't sniffed enough toe jam. I'm a little surprised, as I seem to recall that you never wear socks with your Arizonas and regard doing so as an unconscionable aberration.

I can't comment on the Cubs question - just too out of touch with baseball, I guess. It's half a century and more since I saw my last game at Yankee Stadium.

Re: Toe jam is nasty stuff!

Sharon W on 11/15/02 at 11:48 (100276)

Julie,

Just adding my 2 cents:

I cultured some once, for a biology class. It grew strep bacteria, the kind of stuff that hurts so much when you get it in your throat!

Sharon

Re: Darnit!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 11:50 (100277)

(S)he who laugheth loudest at rejoinders gets singled outeth. :-)

Re: Darnit!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:11 (100279)

LOL!! Thank you, Julie. I guess we will have to wait to hear The Truth, but I suspect I'll like my answer anyway. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:13 (100280)

That's excellent! I used to have a teacher in high school who said he did not announce pop quizzes for that very reason. I agree with Julie... A++++

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 12:18 (100281)

Nancy S, I see you finally got sucked into this thing. :-) While what you're saying may not be exactly right (can't the day be the surprise?), you are at least on the right track in trying to define more precisely what is meant by a 'suprise'. (Not quite an A+++++, but it's a start.) Not that doing so will so easily solve the problem either. No, everyone, this problem is not a joke. I don't profess to have all the answers either; I don't even like philosophy and logic, which this stuff invariably gets tangled up in. In a recent article in a very respectable math journal giving an overview of the problem, it first starts by talking about the associated meta-paradox:

'The meta-paradox cosists of two seemingly incompatible facts. The first is that the surprise exam paradox seems easy to resolve. Those seeing it for the first time typically have the instinctive reaction that the flaw in the students' reasoning is obvious. Furthermore, most readers who have tried to think it through have had little difficulty resolving it to their own satisfaction.

The second (astonishing) fact is that to date nearly one hundred papers on the paradox have been published, and still no consensus on its correct resolution has been reached. The paradox has even been called a 'significant problem' for philosophy. How can this be? Can such a ridiculous argument really be a major unsolved mystery? If not, why does paper after paper begin by brusquely dismissing all previous work and claiming that it alone presents the long-awaited simple solution that lays the paradox to rest once and for all?

Some other paradoxes suffer from a similar meta-paradox, but the problem is especially acute in the case of the surprise examination paradox. For most other trivial-sounding paradoxes there is a broad consensus on the proper resolution, whereas for the surprise exam paradox there is not even agreement on its proper formulation.'

Scary. I'll have more to say on this later.

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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:35 (100282)

Elliott, your quotation stated 'Those seeing it for the first time typically have the instinctive reaction that the flaw in the students' reasoning is obvious'.

I think we have disproved this here. Most of us didn't even want to answer. In my case, on seeing it for the first time, my instinctive reaction was that the problem was too vaguely defined to address (and that is not meant as a criticism of you, but of the problem). For that reason I didn't address it at all until you asked (pleaded with?) us to answer it.

I even included in my answer that I didn't think it was the 'official answer', and the reason for that was the fundamental ambiguity of a poorly defined problem (again, I do not mean that as a criticism of you, but of the problem). I can't speak for the others, but it's possible that their reluctance to answer was related to that also.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 12:53 (100284)

So basically, after I point out that the problem is not easily defined, you say it's not easily defined. :-) Youalmost sound resentful. Hey, it's not *my* stupid problem. :-)

Even with what's been said already, the problem as stated still seems like it should be reasonable. It sounds to me like you're trying to just dismiss the problem out of hand when even those researchers delving deeply into it do not do so at all. Why shouldn't a teacher be able to say, 'when I hand you the quiz next week (or next year), the day you get it will be a surprise'?

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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 13:30 (100288)

Elliott, m'dear, my post did not say anything resentful. It said that the quote you provided in your previous post did not hold up, as far as this bunch of nice people are concerned. We didn't jump to conclusions about a poorly determined problem right away. Those jokers can't get anything past us. :)

It seemed terribly poorly defined (as you term it, a 'stupid problem'). That's why I didn't answer it at first and I'd bet that on some level that's why a lot of us didn't answer it at first. We had more important things to discuss, like moon pies. :)

As to why a myriad of other unknown researchers (another vague group) haven't dismissed it, I haven't a clue.

Maybe they don't like moon pies.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 13:59 (100291)

You sure sound testy even if you say you're not, and even if someone comes on to give you the mandatory 'LOL, Outstanding Post, Carole C!' I'm not sure what quote of mine you're saying didn't hold up. My very first one parallels that given in the literature. Add the word 'day' if it helps clarify things.

To say it's terribly poorly defined shows a lack of understanding of the problem and why it generates so much literature. If you think the problem is trivial garbage (and, as the passage suggests, you wouldn't be the first), a better answer would have been to say precisely how the question was ill-defined and how to say it better if this is indeed possible, and if not, to say why it's not possible. Then publish your results as a research article.

Don't give too much credit to a group who for the most part didn't even try to answer; the runners' group gave it a far better effort and was much sharper. Must be those endorphins.

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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Kari B on 11/15/02 at 14:46 (100295)

Hi all,
I just had to jump in here after reading this thread. I know my answer will be completely wrong but here goes my effort: First of all, yes, I understand and agree with the paradox, but I think what is more important is the end result. The teacher says 'quiz, pop quiz, surprise test, etc' and I believe her reasoning to it all is that she will ultimately wind up with students who have really studied because they are not sure what the quiz will include. I actually have to say that I like the way my daughters math teacher handles the whole quiz thing.... at the beginning of the year he notified his students that they would have a short quiz at the beginning of each days class... unless he decided that morning he didn't feel like giving it. That way, the only suprise is a nice one with a great reaction from the students saying 'whew, no quiz today, thats great!' and the teacher gets what he wants ultimately as well... for his students to study what he taught during that days class. I have found that my daughter doesn't come home and complain about the way he teaches, and is doing well in his class. I'm sure that doesn't come anywhere near the answers being looked for... its just my own opinion. This thread has interested me and I think I will do some research to find some of the papers written on this topic so that I can be ready for the next 'pop quiz' here! :)
Kari

Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:04 (100299)

julie, i'm glad to see your great interest in the topic of toe jam. i'm going to take your word for it that it's 480 spaces; so if you're wrong, you won't be hearing it from me this time.

i'm on quick break from the shop and so can't study elliott's problem and comments further at the moment. if i can't sleep tonight, though, i will. the idea that the crux of it is related to the definition of 'surprise' appeals to me.

on the other hand, elliott(!), when will these comparisons between this board and your runners' fantasyland-paradise-genius boards cease? honestly, you'd think runners are a bunch of einsteins! don't get me wrong -- i'm not saying a particular runner can't be a genius. i just think that this board has plenty of smarts on it, even though none of us can run.

and think about that -- the utter cruelty! comparing us and our brains, a bunch of pf'ers and other problem-foot people, with healthy and lively athletic types on runners' boards! elliott, even you should know better. next you'll be posting on boards for people with leprosy and reprimanding them for not taking care of their skin and not having supreme social confidence like people on beauty boards do.

i have to go and be somewhat stupid now, since i can't run. see ya!

n
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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:23 (100301)

thank you, carole. you seem pretty darn smart to me. are you a runner?

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:35 (100305)

ok, i'm back to the original wording here.

you say not that the day of the quiz will be a surprise but that the quiz itself 'will be a surprise.' though i fear i'm repeating myself, doesn't this indicate that the subject matter will be a surprise? or the format? or anything else except the day of the quiz? is the whole problem itself not poorly defined but simply the words used to present it?

i took a couple of logic courses in college, but that was a long time ago, and many illogical things have made themselves known to me in life since then.

n
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Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 16:48 (100308)

I can run, Nancy. I just don't feel like it. I'm not awfully smart - that's probably why.

Well - actually, I haven't tried for about 20 years. I probably couldn't now anyway.

And it IS 480 spaces. 60 people x 8 spaces each. (If anybody thought there were 5 spaces per foot, just look at your foot. But don't go too near the toe jam.)

:)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 17:00 (100309)

No, I can't be smart, Nancy. I like to walk, but running doesn't do a thing for me. It's a lot harder on the feet and it doesn't burn any more calories than walking the same distance, so I'm told.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 17:04 (100310)

Ah, but Carole, think of the endorphins! :)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 17:12 (100311)

Aren't endorphins released when one is sexually aroused, too?

I need to start dating again. With any luck, I could end up with a serious relationship with someone whom I find appealing in that way. Then I can be stupid and enjoy my endorphins, both. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/15/02 at 17:22 (100313)

oh good goddess i read that whole thread/ i need to get a life.

Re: I DO belong in first grade! :-)

Suzanne D on 11/15/02 at 19:13 (100322)

You are all far smarter than I am, I fear. But, in first grade we don't give 'pop quizzes' - unless you count the two bonus words I add at the end of each Friday's spelling test - so I guess I'm safe! The students know there will be an additional two words of the same pattern of the words they have studied, but they don't know what the words will be. The extra two words help me to know if they have internalized the patterns we have studied or simply memorized the ten words for the test.

I'm not really a logical person (ask my husband!)- more an intuitive thinker, I guess you might say. I DID enjoy Nancy Drew mysteries when I was about 10 or 12 years old, but that doesn't qualify me for these puzzles.

But it is fun reading everyone else's thoughts! Now maybe I'll go have a moon pie...

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 19:26 (100323)

julie, you are smart.
carole, you are smart.

i used to run now and then. i experienced the 'runner's high' once after running two miles straight. it was an excellent drug.

but it didn't last. it bothered me that i wasn't running anywhere. just in circles.

before pf and all, i liked to hurry in my work (lugging antiques here, there, & everywhere, and moving them around into what i found to be artistic positions to each other). that's what i miss: hurrying while in the throes of some aesthetic seizure! it felt like flying, both physically and spiritually. it seemed like a more profound high than running for the sake of running. just true for me personally, folks!

after what most people have been through here, and are still going through, it's hard to think that actual running can be good for the feet, not to mention joints and tendons in other connected parts of the body.

i'm all for walking and other non-bludgeoning types of exercise.

n
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Re: Toe jamb

Nancy N on 11/15/02 at 22:06 (100336)

Forgive me for jumping in here and possibly bursting a bubble, but I am pretty sure that there's some mixed-up terminology going on here.

I believe the correct spelling for the anatomical area in question is 'toe jamb,' and refers to the area between the toes, where the icky stuff described above would tend to form, and not the icky stuff itself. I'm sure that has some other riveting scientific name, which I'm not fortunate enough to know (which means that the rest of you are fortunate enough not to have me share it with you!).

Just my two cents....

Re: Reasoning

wendyn on 11/15/02 at 23:11 (100341)

The class was wrong because instead of putting their effort and intelligence towards studying for the test, they wasted exactly 125% more time trying to figure out when it would be.

That of course, only applies to the 80% of the students who were in the room when the teacher announced the test(and not skipping or smoking in the bathroom).

Of the remaining 80% of the students where were present in the room, 40% were not paying attention to what she said anyway( of the 40% not paying attention, 80% were thinking about the opposite sex and the other 20% were thinking about last night's episode of Survivor).

Of the students who were paying attention, all but one of them spent all their time trying to figure out when the test was (because kids will do anything to avoid studying).

The one remaining student DID in fact know when the test was, because the teacher is his mom.

Re: Carole, that sounds better! eom

Julie on 11/16/02 at 02:50 (100346)

:)

Re: Toe jamb

Julie on 11/16/02 at 02:58 (100347)

Nancy N, you have not only burst my bubble, you have destroyed my illusions and even possibly the possibility of future fame, not to mention wealth. I was giving creative thought to possible environmentally-friendly uses to which all that toe jam could be put. It seemed like a real opening for a not-too-smart non-runner.

I shall never forgive you. Never!

:(

Re: Toe jamb

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 03:35 (100349)

ooohhh, nancy. how could you.

here you lead this social-butterfly life in reality, and you come on here after i've gone to bed and you set facts straight and are a real party pooper.

i was hoping this topic might take off and exceed the moon-pie thread.

n
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Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 03:40 (100350)

and also, thank you for making me laugh, even though every hope i had of getting back to sleep is now gone because of it.

it was worth it, though.

it's 4:37 a.m. here. i've been awake since 3:54. Just thought you all should know that, and maybe next time this happens at least one of you could drag yourself out of bed and keep me company.

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 04:17 (100351)

like i said, insomnia inspires me to think, though usually not well.

my fourth-grade teacher gave us a pop quiz once -- and i believe we were warned about it at the beginning of the week.

one day that week we were told to enter, one by one, a closet at the back of the room, and to decide while we were in there which machine we encountered in our daily lives was the most important, intelligent, and creative in the world.

each kid that came out of the closet had a happy and smug look on his or her face.

when my turn came, i went into the closet and shut the door. a small light was on in there, and a big mirror, too big to miss, hung on the wall. this was way before computers were mainstream; i think IBM was still boasting about its one gigantic mainframe computer that took up an entire room. typewriters were manual, not electric. people with dishwashers in their houses were considered extremely wealthy. tv still gave us about three channels. our parents' cars boasted only the flipping kind of numbers on the dashboard.

and i'm not THAT old! 53. a young 53, because i never had children -- due to what i perceived as a lack of total, down-to-earth sanity and stamina in myself.

do i digress? i think the kids didn't study and their reasoning was wrong because they made assumptions based on taking one day at a time. i still say that they were wrong by ruling out each and every day; the quiz could be popped on ANY day, and so the only thing to do would be to prepare for it before ANY of the days arrived.

the element of surprise is a tricky thing when it comes to time. ever try giving a surprise birthday party? even if this party is thrown not exactly on your birthday but on a day shortly before or shortly after, is it truly a surprise? if one even suspects a surprise party is in the works, one had better be prepared to act surprised before, during, and after the celebratory day.

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 04:27 (100352)

p.s. Did i mention that i have the flu and my head feels like a gigantic storm cloud?

yesterday someone asked me when my shop would be open today. i said, 'twelve until noon.'

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:31 (100353)

It's 5:28 AM here and I just woke up. I normally set my alarm clock for 5:30, but this is a weekend so I was looking forward to sleeping in! My inner clock had a different idea of a fun Saturday. LOL

Carole C

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:33 (100354)

Aw! I'm so sorry to hear that you have the flu. I hope you feel better soon!

Carole C

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 05:34 (100355)

i'm sorry, carole. you need to set your inner tuner on low for a weekend.
n
.

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 05:36 (100356)

thank you, carole! i'm going to lie down right now and try to read myself to sleep as the sun is rising at the end of the street. it'll be very tricky, but i'm giving it a go. have a great weekend
n.
.

Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:41 (100357)

That's for sure! My inner clock and I seem to have completely different ideas of what a great weekend is like.

BUT.... I recently bought a big 'chair and a half' armchair, which is sooooo comfortable. It's great for reading and napping, so I'll do some of that this afternoon.

I'm reading an interesting book called Mafia Kingfish, which is about the history of the New Orleans Mafia and their possible connection with Oswald and the JFK assassination. It's utterly fascinating to read about such stuff while living right here in New Orleans. But fascinating or not, I invariably fall asleep in that chair. LOL

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

wendyn on 11/16/02 at 07:24 (100367)

Good morning Nancy. I'm also up early, but my alarm was set. I DID NOT sleep well last night. I still have trouble on rare occassions with my heart rate going a little too fast. Normally it slows down after a while, but it seems to be persisting for a bit this time. Makes is hard to sleep when your heart is insisnting that it's got lots of work to do, even when you're body is worn out.

Mind you, it was running around 100 bpm - not 166 (like when it really goes off).

Now that I'm up, it's doing the same thing this morning.

Here's hoping that it will settle down before long!

Re: Where's your creativity???

Nancy N on 11/16/02 at 08:15 (100370)

Now, come on, guys.... knowing that the term refers to the toe area and not the stuff you find there should, in fact, open up all sorts of creative possibilities!! After all, if the stuff isn't called 'toe jam,' then clearly someone needs to give it a really outstanding name.

Which of us will rise to the occasion? I know someone will come up with something good--John H if no other. So the question is, who will beat him to it?

(And I'll probably be offline for a while today, hopefully not tomorrow, as I upgrade my iMac to the new OS. So no worries about further bursted bubbles!)

Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Julie on 11/16/02 at 09:31 (100376)

Carole, Lee Harvey Oswald went to the same Junior High School as I did (he was much later) JHS 117 in the Bronx. And I went to university with Ruth Hyde Paine, in whose home Oswald and his wife Marina were living when the assassination took place.

What's the connection with the New Orleans Mafia?

I wonder what the statistical probability is of two posters at heelspurs.com each having a connection with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Elliott should have some ideas....:)

Re: Surprise party

Julie on 11/16/02 at 09:36 (100377)

Nancy I was given a surprise party by my flatmates for my 25th birthday. In Chicago,that was, just before I left for Europe (so it was also a going-away party).

Alas, a friend who didn't know it was going to be a surprise gave the game away the day before. I didn't want to spoil the surprise, so I had to spend the whole day pretending I didn't notice the preparations, and preparing to act surprised. It was an exhausting day!

But it was a nice party.

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:23 (100387)

'Digital Dustbunnies'?

As in fingers and toes being digits. I think 'Digital Dustbunnies' has a sort of euphonic ring to it.

Besides, it doesn't sound nearly as gross as that other term.

Carole C

Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:52 (100389)

Oswald was born at Charity hospital in New Orleans. To quote from the book, on p. 139,

'Oswald had grown up in an area of New Orleans that was dominated by various illegal gambling operations controlled by the Mafia. When Oswald was a teenager, he and his mother lived in a small apartment over a saloon at 126 Exchange Alley in New Orleans' then run-down Vieux Carre, and he attended Beauregard Junior High in the same neighborhood.'

Which is not to say that he didn't spend some time in the Bronx too, but I hadn't heard of it before (very interesting!) and he was a native New Orleanian and grew up in New Orleans. The Vieux Carre is the French name for the French Quarter.

Anyway, Oswald's Uncle was a bookie for New Orleans Mafia leader Carlos Marcello, and his mother had Mafia friends too, although she was not involved in that. Oswald himself was a runner and a collector for his uncle's bookmaking operation in the summer of 1963, and maybe more.

There is lots more interesting stuff. I'm still reading. :)

Carole C

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:57 (100391)

Julie, if you haven't done so already, it might help to eliminate caffeine for a few weeks.

My doctor suggested that for my heartbeat irregularities last spring, and it really helped. After completely eliminating coffee for a while, now I have resumed drinking coffee but if it starts again I cut back, and so on.

But, I'd be willing to bet that everyone tells you this and that you've already cut out caffeine! If not, it might help.

Carole C

Re: I meant Wendy!!! LOL (nm)

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:58 (100392)

.

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 11:21 (100396)

Julie,

That's very interesting! I found a link to a chronology of Oswald's life, at http://www.madbbs.com/~tracy/lho/chrono.htm

It does say at this website that he was in New York for 17 months from August, 1952 to January, 1954, when his mother Marguerite moved back to New Orleans. It's not mentioned in the book, or in Garrison's book on the possible assassination conspiracy ('On the Trail of the Assassins'), but apparently there is some evidence of a Lee Oswald being in both places during that time. What an enigma to explore.

Carole C

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Julie on 11/16/02 at 11:35 (100401)

That's right, Carole. I read about Oswald's attendance at JHS 117 in the newspaper reports at the time, but I'd forgotten the years. It was indeed between 1952 and 1954. I was at that school from 1947-48. Now I'm intrigued (about his being in two places at once) and will look into the link you gave.

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Julie on 11/16/02 at 11:40 (100403)

Carole

Here's the line from that website:

'September (1953)

The Oswalds move to Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and Lee enters P.S. 117, where he is frequently absent from classes.'

It made a big impression on me in 1963, by which time I was living in England, that he'd gone for a while to the same school as me.

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 12:36 (100405)

Julie,

I think that is so neat (and so chilling!) that you went to the same junior high as Lee Harvey Oswald!

There are other websites that are less sure of where he really was than the first website I gave you. Here's one:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.g-dr.html

I guess that the confusion on the issue is why it's not mentioned in the books that I've read so far. BUT... if he was actually there for nearly 17 months, as there seems to be considerable evidence that he was, I wonder what his mother Marguerite was doing while they were there! The plot thickens... :)

Back to the New Orleans Mafia connection, Lee Harvey Oswald was born in New Orleans and grew up here. His mother was Creole, with the maiden name of Claverie, and raised him alone because his father was dead. Apparently Oswald and his relatives knew people in the New Orleans Mafia. His uncle, Dutz Murret, also lived in the French Quarter and was a bookie for the Mafia but wasn't a major Mafia figure. This was the uncle Oswald worked for during the summer before the assassination.

Carole C

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 12:42 (100406)

Nancy....I think they have 'Toe Marmalade' in England....LOL!!!!
Richard

Re: A+++++

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 12:44 (100407)

WOO HOOO!!!!
Richard

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:04 (100409)

you're probably right, richard. they must have all kinds of marmalade in england that we don't even know about. maybe skunk marmalade, hair marmalade, moon-pie marmalade, emu-oil marmalade. the list could be endless, and julie will no doubt enlighten us.
n
.

Re: LOL!! (nm)

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 13:06 (100410)

.

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:07 (100411)

i think wendy developed some kind of condition in the past year that causes this. is that right, wendy? it does not sound comfortable! aside from that, are you basically going to be ok with it? i can't remember the details.
n
.

Re: Creativity

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:11 (100412)

yours is good, carole. i'm trying to think up something also less gross, but my mind is stuck on 'jamb crud,' which is very bad. i can't help it; i'm sick as a dog. am on another quick break from the shop. i don't even know why i'm out there just waiting to give the flu to somebody who might walk in, especially when no one is walking in because it's snowing here.

n
.

Re: Surprise party

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:19 (100413)

well, julie, it IS exhausting to act surprised, isn't it? i'm glad yours was a good party anyway, though.

i was given a 'surprise' party in about the sixth grade, at someone's house. figured it out beforehand, of course, so went through the same thing. i liked that they gave me the record 'liberty valence' as a present, though, a song i liked at the time.

i worked at earthwatch for four years in the early 1980s. they were always giving 'surprise' parties, probably because we were understaffed and overworked. at one of those parties, a woman said, 'oh my god, you people -- if three blue volkswagens drove into the driveway you'd use it as an excuse to have a party.'

elliott, where are you? i hope you haven't lost your sense of humor, after all this time!

n.
.

Re: Surprise party

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 14:12 (100417)

Well....at least now Elliot can't complain that his post did not get any responses. :-)
Richard

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 14:27 (100421)

Nancy, go home! It's not wrong to 'give yourself permission' to go home. Your customers will be glad that they didn't catch your flu, and you might get sicker working out there on a snowy day. If you don't go home, I hope you are at least staying warm (well, relatively warm).

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 14:29 (100422)

(giggle) Richard, you're hilarious. I was thinking the same thing. :)

Carole C

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:33 (100426)

Actually, Carole, Lee Harvey Oswald went to the same school as me.

Yes, chilling, isn't it?

Thanks for the fill-in on the NOLA Mafia connection: it's all absolutely fascinating.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:35 (100428)

Sorry, Nancy and Richard. I don't like marmalade, and am deaf and blind to its varieties. But I'm sure you're right, Nancy. (Except maybe not moon-pie marmalade.)

Re: Blue Volkswagens

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:39 (100429)

Nancy, we had a blue Volkswagen for 17 years!

I have a feeling Elliott has gone away in disgust. He probably doesn't like toe jam. Or toe marmalade.

I think you should go to bed now.

So should I.

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

wendyn on 11/16/02 at 16:09 (100433)

Nancy, I was diagnosed in the last year - but I imagine I've had it for a long time. Not sure if I spelled it right or not.

It's not serious, and as long as I stay away from certain meds and caffiene I'm usually okay. Thanks for the reminder Carole! I sometimes have half a cup of real coffee in the morning, mixed with decaf. I also will drink real tea. I'm hoping that's not doing it.

My one and only true vice left is a fondness for red wine. I'm noticing more often that if I have any more than one glass, it can trigger this too. This is just my luck. No more cigarettes, no more caffiene, and eventually - probably no more red wine.

If the doctor tells me no more sex, I'm throwing in the towel.

Nancy - from what my doctor said, and from what I've read - it isn't a serious condition. It tends to be more of an annoyance.

It was like this for about an hour after I got up this morning, and I've been fine ever since.

Life has been busy the last few months, and I've been spending A LOT of time on a math class I'm taking (Elliott is my hero since I found out he's a math whiz). I don't think stress is a contributing factor, but who knows? I like the class, I (amazingly enough) have found out that I actually really like math, and I'm doing well - but it's still creating real time strain at this time of year. I haven't been able to take yoga since the summer (because of this class) - so I'm looking forward to going back in January.

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 18:20 (100439)

What's also kind of spooky is that the book lists the names of his five aunts and uncles on his mother's side, and several of them still appear to be in the telephone book here. I guess they just had to go on with their lives. How dreadful.

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

elliott on 11/16/02 at 18:57 (100443)

No, I haven't lost my sense of humor, even if all you goodie-goodies give the usual knee-jerk support to each other at my expense; just my usual weekend disappearing act, nothing more. Regardless, it was a pleasant surprise to return and see that my objective was achieved: this thread just blew away moon pies! There is hope yet!

I'll post next week (the articles are at work) an outline of the published attempts at solutions (I have a feeling you won't be happy; I wasn't either). If most of you don't want me to bother, give a shout now and save me the effort.

[]

Re: Surprise party

Suzanne D on 11/16/02 at 21:13 (100455)

Of course we would like to read the attempts at solutions, Elliott.

I've been called a 'goodie-goodie' before, so that doesn't really bother me if I was included in the group to which you referred. But I didn't intend to give support to anyone at anyone else's expense, nor do I think anyone else did, either.

Have a nice weekend!
Suzanne :-)

Re: Surprise party

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:05 (100467)

my mother and my husband will be thrilled when i tell them you called me a goodie-goodie. it's what they've always wanted but never thought they had. thanks, elliott!

i'm very interested in reading the outline of the published attempts at solutions. my flu-brain needs the exercise. can't you go in to the office today and do it.

n
.

Re: The giggle

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 09:10 (100470)

Thanks for the giggle Elliott, I may have been called a lot of names - but I don't recal goodie-goodie ever being one of them!

Good to see that your usual knee jerk responses are as predictable as ours!!!

;)

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:17 (100471)

wendy, it's good that the condition is not as serious as the name. i hope your doc prefaced the diagnosis at the time with the reassuring info! i hope this isn't related, but maybe you should know that because of the other condition we share that produces similar symptoms, i really had to cut out caffeine. for years i tried mixing the real thing with decaf, etc etc etc, and in the end found that i felt much better without any caffeine at all. if you have to give it up completely in the end, i do hope you can find a vice to replace it with, something other than the things you've already had to give up. good luck! also, i admire your liking of the math class. i hate to sound like a typical 'girl,' but i despised math in every form. algebra was the only course i ever had to take twice.
n.
.

Re: Creativity

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:23 (100473)

thank you, carole, and anyone else who encouraged me to call it quits yesterday and go home and go to bed. i didn't do it, because i didn't read your advice until after the day was over. today i'm doing it, though! wearing only a bathrobe and spending frequent time in bed with a book on the san francisco earthquake of 1906 (way too many adjectives and similes and metaphors, and that was just in the setting-the-stage part -- the earthquake is just happening now).

i'd get more rest if i didn't have to keep checking the board, but you know how that goes!

n.
.

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 10:00 (100481)

Nancy - the doctor was reassuring, and of course I did a lot of my own research on the net. Really isn't an exciting condition (THAT was reassuring!)

You're right, I probably should just leave caffiene alone entirely. (sigh)

On a more positive note, I went to an early Christmas party last night. The wine was supplied by someone who owns a wine shop here. Sampled (in moderation) some wonderful wine, and found out that Australian Shiraz is a new favourite. Of course, when I inquired about the price - it was a wine that was about twice as expensive as the others. (sigh)

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/17/02 at 10:01 (100482)

Sounds like a great book to doze off with and get well! I'm glad you're resting and hope you get well soon.

Carole C

Re: Australian Shiraz

Carole C in NOLA on 11/17/02 at 10:16 (100485)

But Wendy, this is wonderful. What a perfect addition to your 'Christmas list'... a bottle or even a case of Australian Shiraz depending on how much the person wants to spend. Be sure to mention it to your husband and all your friends, and you will probably get enough to last all year. :)

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

Julie on 11/17/02 at 12:55 (100509)

I had a seriously sore knee at the end of last week.

It must have been all that jerking.

Re: Julie

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 17:23 (100515)

I have had a sore knee on and off too. I never know why sometimes they hurt.

Maybe you are on to something?

Re: Carole

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 17:28 (100518)

That is a great suggestion Carole! I never have any idea what to say when people ask for gift suggestions.

Re: The giggle

elliott on 11/17/02 at 19:18 (100524)

Don't giggle too hard. The 'goodie-goodies' are goodie-goodies only in their own minds, not mine. I never counted, but there's around 8 of them; call them the Great 8, or G8 for short. They pretend to be the defenders of goodness and decency around here. They dictate what kinds of posts and topics are considered acceptable, and then break their own standards in two notable ways: 1) they never ever criticize one of their own even for flagrantly overstepping the bounds they themselves imposed; and 2) they will support another G8 member by taking (sometimes subtle) digs at a nonmember. All in the name of goodness and decency, of course. Some have even been known to come out of a three-week break from the boards just to give poor ole me some knee-jerk criticism, tiresome and predictable it hasbecome. Giggle.

Re: Sigh

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 20:13 (100527)

If it worth a response, I might bother.

Re: The giggle

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 21:09 (100530)

elliott, we all have our judgmental moments, but you seem to be one of the most judgmental of all here; and you make one-dimensional generalizations about individuals and label them as a 'group.' you're dreaming.

your view of the great variety of people on these boards is strange to me. i wonder if you ever question it.

Re: Sigh

Julie on 11/18/02 at 03:24 (100541)

I think it probably is worth a response, Wendy. This is what I'd like to say to Elliott (if I were responding :))

You're speaking of (and to) a few people who like each other most of the time, and who have become e-friends (and in some cases real friends). It was natural that that should have happened, because they (we) have been around posting for longer, and more consistently, than others, so they (we) have got to e-know each other and bonds of a sort have formed.

Every one of them (us) has made efforts over the past year or to to speak to you, to be friendly to you, to include you, despite the occasional flare-ups during which you cannot seem to help judging and insulting people. That's because we value your knowledge, and your excellent posts which have been so helpful to people here.

It's you who has dreamed up a 'group' that you don't feel part of. It's you who has put yourself outside it. That is, if there is any 'outside' - I don't accept that there is a 'group', and certainly not an exclusive one.

Lighten up, Elliott, and come and play.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/18/02 at 11:16 (100569)

Julie: I was at Yankee stadium in 1957. I think I told you I lived on Flatbush Avenue one summer with my aunt and uncle who was a Psychatrist at the Brooklyn State Mental Hospital. Lived on grouunds. Only a mile from Ebbets Field so watched the real Dodgers during my college years. Worked off Wall St. on Maiden Lane at Home Insurance Company. My cousing was going to Erasmus High which you may know.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/18/02 at 11:47 (100570)

Big Supprise:

1. your girl friend telling you that you will be a father.
2. Al Gore learning he was not President.
3. Publisher Clearing House knocking on your front door.
4. Waking up and having no foot pain.
5. Scott making up his bed.
6. Texas A & M beating Texas.
7. Saddam having no weapons of mass destruction.
8. All ESWT treatments with all machines cost $250.
9. All scientist agree that low power and high power ESWT are equally good.
10.Dr. Z quits his practice and becomes a Rabbi. He donates his machine to Elliot for further study.
11.Carole finds Atlantis 37.5 miles south of New Orleans in 321 feet if water,
12. Judy gets 5 hits, drives in 12 runs, and hits an inside the park home run in the finals of her baseball tournament.
13. Wendy discovers that walking in snow barefooted cured her PF/TTS.
14. Nancy N. goes to work for Steve Jobs.
15. Nancy S. gets John H's mysterious old Pipe for $10 and discovers it was the pipe smoked by Sitting Bull and becomes a millionaire and moves to Mexico.
12. Brian joing the CIA and disappears.
13. Dr. Ed replaces Dr. Phil on TV.
14. Sunny discovers the meaning of life.
15. Julie colaborates with Sunny and writes a book on the meaning of life.
16. Kathy goes on vacation to Destin and finds the healing sands cure her feet and never returns to her old home.
17. Bill turns out to be Peewee Herman.
18. Fake Bill turns out to be someone from Healthtronics.
19. Richard produces the most popular orthotic ever produced. It is made of solid cast iron. He of course becomes wealthy.
20. Elliott gets on the Survivor TV progam and is thrown off the island before the filming begins.
21. Steve goes to Dr. Z for his 100th ESWT treatment before Dr. Z leaves for his new job.
22. All the heelspurs board members meet in Muncee, Indiana for one last meeting and all hold hands and sing 'We are the World'..

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/18/02 at 12:31 (100571)

John, I love your list! LOL

I do have a few comments... for example,

'6. Texas A & M beating Texas.'

Any Aggie knows that A&M has just had a few bad years. Aggie football rules! Long live the 12th Man, and Gig 'Em! Those T-sips don't have a chance next year.

Another comment:

'11.Carole finds Atlantis 37.5 miles south of New Orleans in 321 feet if water'

Oh goodie! Can I have the movie rights, too? :)

And lastly,

'4. Waking up and having no foot pain.'

John, it's still a surprise to me every morning. I gingerly get out of bed and test my feet incredulously. I still haven't been able to take it for granted and maybe I never will.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

nancy s. on 11/18/02 at 13:33 (100573)

23. john h writes the real story of heelspurs.com since its inception, tries to name it 'Animal Farm' but remembers that title was taken years ago and so earns only a modest amount of money from its publication, and spends it all on feeding the wild animals of the south instead of getting another eswt treatment for himself. he makes a complete recovery anyway.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

nancy s. on 11/18/02 at 13:41 (100574)

24. suzanne is voted valedictorian for the heelspurs.com graduation. but she's too humble to accept the honor and turns it down!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Suzanne D on 11/18/02 at 15:30 (100584)

You're sweet, Nancy! But, you're right: I couldn't accept that. Too many people far smarter than me on this site!

Thanks for including me, though.

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/18/02 at 16:57 (100589)

John, I'm glad to hear you were at Yankee Stadium in 1957. That was after my time (I don't mean I'm older than you, we are the same age as you know), I mean that by then I'd stopped going to baseball games. But I spent my childhood Saturdays either at Yankee Stadium or the NY Giants' home playing field (I can't remember its name - how awful!) and switched weekly from being a Giant fan to a Yankee fan.

I HATED the Brooklyn Dodgers. Everyone in the Bronx hated them.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Julie on 11/18/02 at 16:59 (100591)

Sunny sounds nice, and I'd be glad to collaborate with him on a book about the meaning of life.

Re: John

wendyn on 11/18/02 at 22:00 (100613)

John, I knew that you are a creative, funny, intelligent guy...but you have really set a new standard for yourself!!!

Thanks for the best laugh I have had all week!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 08:17 (100622)

Sunny is a guy in this case? Thanks for the tip.

For some reason I had just been assuming that the name Sunny was a nickname for Sonja. I've known a few Sunny's that were Sonja's.

I think you two would write a great book on the meaning of life. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Julie on 11/19/02 at 08:42 (100624)

Carole, I really don't know! Now you've got me wondering. I always assumed that Sunny Jacob was a guy. Perhaps if s/he is listening, we will get enlightened? (That should help with the book, too.)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/19/02 at 08:53 (100626)

i was born in brooklyn and lived near flatbush ave and my whole family should see a psychiatrist. see how much we have in common?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/19/02 at 09:00 (100627)

everyone in the bronx hated the dodgers? i was a dodger fan, but this makes sense. everyone from the bronx who moved to our neighborhood beat us up to let us know who was tougher. there was never any doubt. i think being a dodger fan during the winning reign of the yankees turned me into someone who always roots for the underdog. i just got used to it.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 09:28 (100629)

Sunny is a guy-

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/19/02 at 09:30 (100630)

Everyone in the Bronx hated everyone period.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 11:51 (100634)

Thanks, Julie and John! I should have guessed from the 'Jacob' part, but I was just thinking he was a 'Sonja'. :)

Carole C

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 11:53 (100635)

But now that I think about it, maybe Sunny is like Sonny, as in Sonny Liston and others.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/19/02 at 16:54 (100669)

Paula, in the Bronx we were always terrified of the tough kids from Brooklyn (I have a feeling we've been through this before, come to think of it). You're right - dodger fans were definitely people who rooted for the underdog. A Dodger win was a major and highly unusual event. We Yankee fans could never believe it when it happened.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/19/02 at 16:54 (100670)

John! That is simply NOT TRUE! Where do you get your information?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:21 (100682)

Carol: the last Sonja I was familar with was Sonja Henie. Probably only Julie knows who she is.

P.S. Carole: Lousiana was just named the state with the worst health care in the U.S. Arkansas was #47. Between AR,MS, and LA we are usually at the bottom of all list.

Re: Names

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:24 (100685)

Carole: Sonny Liston?? you go girl!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:27 (100687)

Julie: I got it from the Jerry Seinfeld TV show.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 18:33 (100689)

Hey, Sonny Liston was pretty amazing, wasn't he! The Clay-Liston fight was the talk of my fancy-schmantzy private high school. We could think of nothing else and there were many spirited discussions about each contender at lunch.

Our principal bet us that if Clay won, we'd get Friday off, but if Liston won, we'd have to come to school an extra day on Saturday. Liston was highly favored by the bookmakers, but in a boisterous assembly our high school voted almost unanimously to take the principal up on his proposed wager.

Of course, Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) won, in a fight that made history. Well, at least for me. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 18:41 (100693)

I know who she was...... an ice skater. But my godparents were Sonja and John, and my daughter's little playmate's mother was Sonja, and they were both Sunny's as well as some others.

John: Louisiana is almost always #50, with Mississippi #49, in everything. Sometimes we trade and Mississippi is #50 and Louisiana is #49. Yet we have almost 9% sales taxes were I live, and with all the other taxes I feel like we pay our share in taxes to the state and local communities.

We just put our former four term governor, Edwin Edwards, in jail for corruption and racketeering, plus the state insurance commissioner, and 100 city workers were arrested for corruption as well and who knows who else.

So now, you can understand why I am becoming more and more intensely interested in Louisiana politics. If/when we can get this place cleaned up, there is money to make us at least #25, for heavens sake! :)

Pardon the rant! We have a wonderful state and it's easy to care passionately about Louisiana.

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 19:09 (100694)

John, I was going to go get a list, any list, to prove my point that Louisiana is always #50. So, I got the Census 2000 statistics on percentage of high school grads in each state. The nationwide average is 80.4%. Surprisingly, here's how the bottom of the list came out!

(drum rolls)

#45 - Alabama: 75.3% are high school grads
#46 - Arkansas: 75.3%
#47 - West Virginia: 75.2%
#48 - Louisiana: 74.8%
#49 - Kentucky: 74.1%
#50 - Mississippi: 72.9%

How did Kentucky get in there? Suzanne, your state needs you! And I was wrong about Louisiana. We are proudly holding the 48th place, and not the bottom of the list, for once. And John, you can hold your head up high, for sure. :)

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Suzanne D on 11/19/02 at 19:23 (100695)

Yes, Carole, we are consistently near the bottom in education, much to my disappointment. We have always had a high percentage of high school drop-outs; years ago many stopped their education to work on the farm. Now, that's not so often the case, but the drop-out rate continues to alarm many and is an on-going project throughout the state.

I have always been proud that my grandfather boarded away from home to be able to attend high school as there was not one near him. That took a lot of effort and understanding that education was important.

Suzanne :-)

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 20:56 (100698)

You have good reason to be proud of your grandfather! It must not have been easy for a young boy to leave home and board elsewhere to attend high school. I didn't realize that Kentucky had education problems, but from what you said I can see that that they do. How rewarding it must be to see the love of learning beginning in your children, and how great your hopes must be for them.

When I lived in rural Mississippi and taught school there more than 25 years ago, there was no mandatory education. Any student could drop out at any age, and they often did to help out on the farm or family business. It seemed very difficult for many to stay in school. I guess that is why they ranked #50.

Carole C

Re: Names

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:32 (100702)

Carole: You seem to know a little about the fight game. You supprise me. My favorite was Sugar Ray Leonard who held to division titles. Early on I was clearly no Ali fan but he made a believer out of me and perhaps was the best of all time. Howerver, you cannot overlook that guy from Brockton, Mass--Rocky Marcino who I think is the only undefeated heavywight champ of all time. What kind of school did you say you went to?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:33 (100703)

Carole: Maybe he can get the cell that Huey Long should have occupied.

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:39 (100704)

When I was in grade school in rural N.C. probably 60% of all the boys dropped out of school at 16 which was the legal limit. They all went to work on the farms with their parents. A lot of kids failed grades in those days. Some might stay in the 6th grade for 2-3 years but at 16 it was i am out of here.By the way-the girls got paddled just like the boys only not as frequently. Even that onery Betty Greenwood got it good one day in the 7th grade by Mr. Lovingood when she sassed him. And that is 'sassed' not 'dissed'.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:25 (100707)

I loved watching Sugar Ray. Rocky Marciano is the fighter you mean. He was something else. Although I didn't start watching the fights regularly every week until the 1960's, so he was just a couple of years before my time, I saw his fights many times on the classics.

I still love boxing, but I don't watch it much any more because I'm too cheap to pay for it. I really think it was a great detriment to the sport when they put it on pay per view or the pay channels. Also, I think they should throw anybody out of the sport forever who bites off someone else's ear during a televised boxing match, and put him in jail for assault instead, but that's just my opinion.

I was about the only non-rich kid at a fancy private prep school, with a principal who was pretty cool for someone over 70 years old at the time. Sorry if I confused you by calling it a 'Fancy-shmantsy' school.. that is just slang for very fancy, la-de-da, and so on. :)

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:34 (100708)

At my grade school we got whatever the boys got. Usually instead of paddling (in private) they would hit us on the hand with a ruler in public if we were unruly. Mrs. Morrisey broke a 12' hardwood ruler on a little boy named Jeffrey's hand in second grade, I remember. Being a budding heelspurs.com goodie-goodie, I actually liked school, never intentionally misbehaved, and never got hit with the ruler. But once, I was sent to the office and had to sit there and think for fifteen minutes, and I was tearfully repentent by that time.

I think that if I had had a teacher named Mr. Lovingood, I might have got in trouble too, for sassing the teacher. Too tempting!

Carole C

Re: Huey Long

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:40 (100709)

Huey Long sure should have occupied one. Have you ever seen the movie 'Blaze'? Friends of mine who knew Huey Long said that Paul Newman captured the real Huey Long, in his mannerisms and speech and so on, and that watching that movie was just like he was back.

We have a few nice empty cells at Angola (prison) ready and waiting for the rest of our woefully corrupt politicians. Edwin Edwards is in jail in Dallas, for ten years. I guess they decided he was so bad they had to send him out of the state.

Carole C

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 00:52 (100711)

ah, rocky marciano. my husband grew up in holland, michigan, where there was some kind of big fighters' training center, and rocky used to train there. phil's dad was a photographer who took and kept many professional photos of the fighters, and there are several of rocky in his collection. my favorite is one of phil at the age of 7, perched on a table in his little cowboy outfit with rocky leaning next to him and a look of utter awe on phil's face. we have that one framed in our house. rocky signed it, 'to my pal phil from rocky marciano.'
nancy
.

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 01:04 (100713)

say, do you suppose if we took this rocky pic and autograph to sotheby's, they would auction it off and we'd become millionaires?

Re: John

Nancy N on 11/20/02 at 05:45 (100724)

Ditto that, John! I'll let you know what Steve Jobs has to say just as soon as I start working for him! Though, that would require me to move to Cupertino, and from all I've heard, I'm not sure that I'd like working for him. Apparently he and Bill Gates are not all that different temperament-wise.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/20/02 at 06:26 (100725)

YES!!!

Carole C

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 08:43 (100732)

thanks, carole. dern it, though, i don't think we could bear to part with it, now that i really think about it. how sad!

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Richard, C.Ped on 11/20/02 at 09:39 (100735)

Wow...I thought South Carolina was at the bottom of the list. Maybe that is in SAT and other test scores.
Richard

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/20/02 at 11:04 (100739)

The percentage of high school grads in South Carolina was 76.3% in Census 2000, so while they are like most other Southern states in not being too close to the 80.4% value for the entire U.S., they also are not right at the bottom.

Now SAT scores might be another matter. That isn't in the Census data. I'm not sure that everyone takes the SAT, though.

Carole C

Re: Names

john h on 11/20/02 at 11:44 (100743)

Nancy S you are the woman. A signed picture of Rocky Marcino! I lived in a first generation Italian neighborhood and as you would expect he was the hero of heroes. He was not a good technical fighter but would just lower his head and thow punches until the other guy was beaten. He could take a lickin and keep on tickin as Timex says.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/21/02 at 17:55 (100839)

neither could we believe the dodgers won. fortunately the dodgers got me used to being a democrat

Re: Huey Long

john h on 11/21/02 at 21:31 (100852)

Carole: A new list appeared today of the most unhealthy states to live in. Guess who was 1st or the worst most unhealthy state? Yep-The good ole Pelican state.

Re: Huey Long

Carole C in NOLA on 11/21/02 at 21:40 (100858)

That figures. We're always first in everything bad, and last in everything good (except when Mississippi out-does us now and then).

If I find out that Louisiana is numero uno when it comes to PF, I'll pack my bags! Enough is enought! LOL

Actually, I feel pretty healthy right now. I had my flu shot and I feel like I'm immune to everything now. My feet don't hurt. My only complaint is that I'm getting older, so if you find a cure for that please let me know.

They are probably saying that we're more unhealthy, because of the good food here which makes us a bit chubby as a state. Also, we have a lot of poverty here and there is a need for more medical care among the poor.

Carole C

Re: Huey Long

pala on 11/22/02 at 09:59 (100894)

are you talking about louisiana? this will cheer my freind larry up, from alabama. he says if it wasn't for mississippi alabamans would feel real bad about themselves. maybe now he will have two states to boost his self-esteem. here is one of my alabama experiences. i looked to buy land there a few years ago and ended up in wedowee. beautiful, pristine, nice lake. sitting in the local diner i struck a convesation up with the waitress. i asked her what wedowee was known for, thinking i'd get historic or manufactuing information. she proudly said that it is most famous for this: a few years back an interacial couple wanted to go the the senior prom. so the principal of the school cancelled the prom! the feds told him he couldn't do that, the prom must go on. the night before the prom, the school building burned down. so there was no prom. the perps were never caught. i asked her what happened to the principal. i swear she said he is now the superintendent of schools there. i never checked these facts, she could be making this up, but larry says it sounds just about right to him. unbelievable. this pretty much decided me against buying land there. that and the fact that every time someone took us out to look for land larry and i would bet how quick the land owner would insult everything we were or were friends with. within five minutes jews, homosexuals, liberals, blacks and secular humanists (not sure what they are but they are apparently in league with satan) were mentioned and not in a nice way. maybe the fact that larry was a native gave an opening for this sort of talk. or maybe because we were from atlanta and look like old hippies, and they were baiting us. maybe they didn't really mean it. we never knew. we gave up the idea of owning rural land in the south.

Re: Louisiana

Carole C in NOLA on 11/22/02 at 11:33 (100908)

It sounds about right to me too. The south is quite a culture shock for Californians and east coasters who come here and expect people to share their outlook on the world. The waitress was probably just trying to steer you in the right direction, since you were thinking of buying land there. Actually, when you think about it that was pretty nice of her because like you said, I doubt you would have been happy there.

It's easy to be judgemental when you jump into a drastically different region from the outside, like that. I should know; I've lived in Northern California for six years, in Southern California for six years, in Louisiana for six years, and in five other states (mostly southern but including my family home which is Hawaii). But, I enjoy living here as do many people. When comparing the South to other parts of the country, there are some tremendous plusses and tremendous minuses.

Although I may complain a lot about Louisiana, that's sort of a local hobby. Everybody complains about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody wants to move... it just means that there is room for improvement by those who stay. My only real, substantial gripe about living in Louisiana is the hurricanes. They terrify me. I have to learn to be tougher about them and develop a sense of calm and 'whatever happens, happens' type of attitude, I guess, or else move away some day.

Carole C

Re: Louisiana

john h on 11/26/02 at 10:31 (101181)

Having lived in Florida,Georgia,North Carolina,Lousiana,Texas,Mass,N.J, Wyoming,Illinois, Montana, Nebraska, Kansas, Arkansas, Colorodo and spent a lot of time in most of the other 50 states I find in the long run people are much the same where ever you go. You can adjust and happiness is not found where you are but with the people who you are with. I am a warm weather person but some of my fondest times were in Cheyenne, Wyoming. We just happened to have a group of people who we had fun with and many common interest. The flat lands,blowing snow, and big winds made no difference.

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Suzanne D on 11/13/02 at 10:52 (100017)

Whew, Elliott! I will think on this when I have more time! :-) But I do like the scenario since the teacher comes out on top!

Now I can see how that Friday would not be a surprise if they get to Thursday and still have not had the quiz. However, on the other days of the week, I am thinking they might not be able to rule it out as easily! For instance, what reasoning would lead them to believe it would not be on Monday or Tuesday...

Like I said, I'll think more later! Right now I have 5 minutes before I must pick up the children from lunch.

We're studying reptiles right now. I always try to 'get into' whatever we're learning, so I am wearing a gold lizard pin which I found at a consignment shop for $2.00. My kids think it's beautiful, but a kindergartner in the bathroom a few minutes ago looked at me and said, 'That is CREEPY!'

One of my first graders commented, 'Well, she just doesn't know much about them yet!'

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/14/02 at 07:55 (100121)

The topic of Moon pies gets 10,000 posts and this gets just about nothing? I once posted this conundrum on a running forum, (with 'teacher' and 'quiz' replaced by 'coach' and 'killer workout'), and it started a long, interesting thread. Sure, moon pies are far more interesting, but...

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Richard, C.Ped on 11/14/02 at 08:26 (100125)

I think that once you tell the kids about the quiz, that blows the element of suprise. Since you want the student's reasoning, I think that they went wrong by thinking they were out smarting the teacher in the first place. The are just children, even if they are in the 12th grade. We have all been there. You think you know so much more than adults. It is good to know that the teacher backed up her promise of giving the test.

I have a feeling that I am way off the mark of what you are asking, but this is the first thing that came to my mind.
Richard, C.Ped

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/14/02 at 14:31 (100157)

elliott, people on runners' forums are probably more awake, what with the endorphins racing around their brains all the time and so on.

people here, many in chronic pain and/or unable to walk as you know, can fixate on moon pies and be highly entertained. it isn't a matter of intelligence or laziness, in case you're thinking that -- just a grasping at whimsy to make life more endurable while pf and other wonderful conditions wreak havoc.

i wanted to study your post, but my endorphin supply ran out a few days ago. by the time it's replenished, you'll probably be off handing out complex assignments to scott or some other higher power and will have forgotten all about this puzzle here.

nancy
.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/14/02 at 20:27 (100178)

ok, hardly anyone's posting tonight and i needed a challenge, so i studied the scenario. (me and my big mouth, earlier.)

i think it isn't the timing of the quiz but the nature or the subject of the quiz that's to be the surprise.

how'd i do?

n.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 02:37 (100218)

Elliott, what went wrong in the the kids' reasoning was that they didn't trust their wonderful teacher, Suzanne D, to do what was best for them. They should have just sat back and enjoyed the suspense. (And the quiz, whenever it popped.)

And Nancy you win this morning's prize for making me laugh out loud. First thing in the morning, that can't be bad.

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 06:37 (100223)

Time moves forward and if the point in time at which the quiz is administered is to be the surprise, no day or time can be ruled out until that time has passed. All the class knows is that the times that are in the past, are no longer available for the surprise quiz. If the quiz was not given on Thursday, it could still be given at 8 AM Friday, 10:13 AM Friday, 2:59 PM Friday, or whenever.

In other words, time is continuous, not discrete, although our system of time measurement would have us believe otherwise. I'm sure this is not 'the official answer', but it's a realistic answer.

Carole C

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 07:24 (100226)

Carole, if it makes you feel better, change the wording to 'the day you get it will be a surprise', or perhaps even better, 'you will not know when I hand it to you that you were going to get it that day'. Now let's see: it can't be on Friday...

[]

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 07:42 (100228)

No, Julie and others, it doesn't have to do with lack of trust in your teacher. In fact, it has been suggested that in this day and age of lawyers and trivial lawsuits, it wouldn't be beyond the realm to see a child (or his parents) suing the teacher over this and winning.

Note: amazingly, the problem is the same even over the entire school, i.e., the teacher says on the very first day of school that some time this year you will get a pop quiz, and the day you get it will be a surprise. Well, let's see now: it can't be on the very last day of school...

The problem has several incarnations. One, as given here, is the 'surprise examination paradox'. Another is the 'unexpected hanging paradox' (executioner tells prisoner he will be executed one day next week, but that day will be a surpise). I made up another version for that running forum (coach tells team that next week they will get a killer workout they'll never forget, but the day will be a surprise).

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 08:08 (100230)

Gosh, Elliott, now I feel SO much better. You just have no idea. (?)

Carole

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Richard, C.Ped on 11/15/02 at 08:26 (100232)

This reminds me as to why I do not need to be answering these 'thinking' questions. I can not keep up with all of you intellegent people. I guess I have been sniffing to much toe jam and it is burning out all my brain cells. LOL
Richard

Re: Darnit!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 09:31 (100235)

I knew it! I just knew I'd be the one to cop it. Several people post with the friendly, frivolous intention of linking in with your (supposedly) frivolous quiz, and it's me that gets the 'No, Julie' for being 'wrong'. Oh well.

And then it turns out that it was a deadly serious question after all.

Richard, can I join you? I'm just not intelligent enough to keep up with this sort of thing. I should never have said anything.

But Carole, yours was absolutely brilliant, and if you were included in the wrong 'others', you should get a lawyer.

The one thing that shines forth from all this is that Suzanne is indeed a wonderful teacher. I did enormously appreciate your post on how you teach your children about differences in people! Thank you.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Julie on 11/15/02 at 09:34 (100236)

.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:41 (100238)

by announcing the quiz in advance, the teacher cannot truly give a surprise quiz. the kids know it's coming; the fact that they don't know when doesn't define it as a surprise.

when the quiz appears before them, are they going to gasp and cry 'oh no, a quiz! we didn't know we'd be quizzed!'? no, they'll say 'oh, ok, here's that quiz the teacher told us about.'

how'd i do? i want an A+ for effort on this thread. fork it over, elliott.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:48 (100240)

No Julie, you shouldn't ask richard what toe jam is. you should ask any one of us. you must stay for detention after school today!

toe jam is dirt between the toes. no one knows exactly what this dirt is, where it comes from, or how it gets there. but it gets there, and then it gets kind of mushy, presumably from sweat.

it can become very gross if you forget to wash between your toes for a long time -- say, a day and a half.

nancy
.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:49 (100241)

p.s. to julie: do you have toe jam in england?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:54 (100242)

uh oh. i just reread the whole thread, and i think i stole richard's wrong answer. richard, you don't mind if i steal your answer so long as it's wrong, do you?

n.
.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 09:59 (100243)

ok, what went wrong with the kids' reasoning is this: it isn't that the quiz won't happen because they 'reasoned' out every day of the week and eliminated them all as possibilities. they should have studied before the week even began, because the quiz could appear on any day at all, monday, friday, or in between. all the days are possibilities.

n.
.

Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:06 (100255)

Well, Nancy, if you hadn't told me what toe jam is I wouldn't have known the answer, but you have and I do and the answer is yes, we have plenty of that stuff in England.

I see hundreds of bare toes every week in my classes but I don't look between them very often (if at all) and unlike Richard I don't get close enough to them to get woozy. Hundreds? Let's see. 15 people in each class (on average) four classes a week, that's 60 people, which makes 600 toes (give or take a couple). Or 300 spaces for toe jam.

Oh no it's not. It's only 240.

Something is addling my brain, and it's not toe jam. Maybe it's the ibuprofen I'm swallowing for my sore knee.

Hey - I've just thought of something. Maybe toe jam is what folks who wear Birkenstocks without socks get. What do you think?

I think I should shut up now. Bye.

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:08 (100260)

..and Nancy, if you don't get it, I'd see a lawyer if I were you.

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:11 (100262)

...and Richard gets one too!

Re: A+++++

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:12 (100263)

An A+++++, not a lawyer. Got to be precise around here.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/15/02 at 11:13 (100264)

Richard I am still hung up thinking about 'what is the meaning of life'? or better yet why do my Cubs end up near last place every year for a half century?

Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:21 (100268)

Oh blast. I really am addled tonight.

I shall have to go back to first grade - which is fine with me as long as I can be in Suzanne's class.

It's 480 spaces of course.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 11:25 (100269)

John, if you're still wondering about the meaning of life, you probably just haven't sniffed enough toe jam. I'm a little surprised, as I seem to recall that you never wear socks with your Arizonas and regard doing so as an unconscionable aberration.

I can't comment on the Cubs question - just too out of touch with baseball, I guess. It's half a century and more since I saw my last game at Yankee Stadium.

Re: Toe jam is nasty stuff!

Sharon W on 11/15/02 at 11:48 (100276)

Julie,

Just adding my 2 cents:

I cultured some once, for a biology class. It grew strep bacteria, the kind of stuff that hurts so much when you get it in your throat!

Sharon

Re: Darnit!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 11:50 (100277)

(S)he who laugheth loudest at rejoinders gets singled outeth. :-)

Re: Darnit!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:11 (100279)

LOL!! Thank you, Julie. I guess we will have to wait to hear The Truth, but I suspect I'll like my answer anyway. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:13 (100280)

That's excellent! I used to have a teacher in high school who said he did not announce pop quizzes for that very reason. I agree with Julie... A++++

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 12:18 (100281)

Nancy S, I see you finally got sucked into this thing. :-) While what you're saying may not be exactly right (can't the day be the surprise?), you are at least on the right track in trying to define more precisely what is meant by a 'suprise'. (Not quite an A+++++, but it's a start.) Not that doing so will so easily solve the problem either. No, everyone, this problem is not a joke. I don't profess to have all the answers either; I don't even like philosophy and logic, which this stuff invariably gets tangled up in. In a recent article in a very respectable math journal giving an overview of the problem, it first starts by talking about the associated meta-paradox:

'The meta-paradox cosists of two seemingly incompatible facts. The first is that the surprise exam paradox seems easy to resolve. Those seeing it for the first time typically have the instinctive reaction that the flaw in the students' reasoning is obvious. Furthermore, most readers who have tried to think it through have had little difficulty resolving it to their own satisfaction.

The second (astonishing) fact is that to date nearly one hundred papers on the paradox have been published, and still no consensus on its correct resolution has been reached. The paradox has even been called a 'significant problem' for philosophy. How can this be? Can such a ridiculous argument really be a major unsolved mystery? If not, why does paper after paper begin by brusquely dismissing all previous work and claiming that it alone presents the long-awaited simple solution that lays the paradox to rest once and for all?

Some other paradoxes suffer from a similar meta-paradox, but the problem is especially acute in the case of the surprise examination paradox. For most other trivial-sounding paradoxes there is a broad consensus on the proper resolution, whereas for the surprise exam paradox there is not even agreement on its proper formulation.'

Scary. I'll have more to say on this later.

[]

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 12:35 (100282)

Elliott, your quotation stated 'Those seeing it for the first time typically have the instinctive reaction that the flaw in the students' reasoning is obvious'.

I think we have disproved this here. Most of us didn't even want to answer. In my case, on seeing it for the first time, my instinctive reaction was that the problem was too vaguely defined to address (and that is not meant as a criticism of you, but of the problem). For that reason I didn't address it at all until you asked (pleaded with?) us to answer it.

I even included in my answer that I didn't think it was the 'official answer', and the reason for that was the fundamental ambiguity of a poorly defined problem (again, I do not mean that as a criticism of you, but of the problem). I can't speak for the others, but it's possible that their reluctance to answer was related to that also.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 12:53 (100284)

So basically, after I point out that the problem is not easily defined, you say it's not easily defined. :-) Youalmost sound resentful. Hey, it's not *my* stupid problem. :-)

Even with what's been said already, the problem as stated still seems like it should be reasonable. It sounds to me like you're trying to just dismiss the problem out of hand when even those researchers delving deeply into it do not do so at all. Why shouldn't a teacher be able to say, 'when I hand you the quiz next week (or next year), the day you get it will be a surprise'?

[]

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 13:30 (100288)

Elliott, m'dear, my post did not say anything resentful. It said that the quote you provided in your previous post did not hold up, as far as this bunch of nice people are concerned. We didn't jump to conclusions about a poorly determined problem right away. Those jokers can't get anything past us. :)

It seemed terribly poorly defined (as you term it, a 'stupid problem'). That's why I didn't answer it at first and I'd bet that on some level that's why a lot of us didn't answer it at first. We had more important things to discuss, like moon pies. :)

As to why a myriad of other unknown researchers (another vague group) haven't dismissed it, I haven't a clue.

Maybe they don't like moon pies.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

elliott on 11/15/02 at 13:59 (100291)

You sure sound testy even if you say you're not, and even if someone comes on to give you the mandatory 'LOL, Outstanding Post, Carole C!' I'm not sure what quote of mine you're saying didn't hold up. My very first one parallels that given in the literature. Add the word 'day' if it helps clarify things.

To say it's terribly poorly defined shows a lack of understanding of the problem and why it generates so much literature. If you think the problem is trivial garbage (and, as the passage suggests, you wouldn't be the first), a better answer would have been to say precisely how the question was ill-defined and how to say it better if this is indeed possible, and if not, to say why it's not possible. Then publish your results as a research article.

Don't give too much credit to a group who for the most part didn't even try to answer; the runners' group gave it a far better effort and was much sharper. Must be those endorphins.

[]

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Kari B on 11/15/02 at 14:46 (100295)

Hi all,
I just had to jump in here after reading this thread. I know my answer will be completely wrong but here goes my effort: First of all, yes, I understand and agree with the paradox, but I think what is more important is the end result. The teacher says 'quiz, pop quiz, surprise test, etc' and I believe her reasoning to it all is that she will ultimately wind up with students who have really studied because they are not sure what the quiz will include. I actually have to say that I like the way my daughters math teacher handles the whole quiz thing.... at the beginning of the year he notified his students that they would have a short quiz at the beginning of each days class... unless he decided that morning he didn't feel like giving it. That way, the only suprise is a nice one with a great reaction from the students saying 'whew, no quiz today, thats great!' and the teacher gets what he wants ultimately as well... for his students to study what he taught during that days class. I have found that my daughter doesn't come home and complain about the way he teaches, and is doing well in his class. I'm sure that doesn't come anywhere near the answers being looked for... its just my own opinion. This thread has interested me and I think I will do some research to find some of the papers written on this topic so that I can be ready for the next 'pop quiz' here! :)
Kari

Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:04 (100299)

julie, i'm glad to see your great interest in the topic of toe jam. i'm going to take your word for it that it's 480 spaces; so if you're wrong, you won't be hearing it from me this time.

i'm on quick break from the shop and so can't study elliott's problem and comments further at the moment. if i can't sleep tonight, though, i will. the idea that the crux of it is related to the definition of 'surprise' appeals to me.

on the other hand, elliott(!), when will these comparisons between this board and your runners' fantasyland-paradise-genius boards cease? honestly, you'd think runners are a bunch of einsteins! don't get me wrong -- i'm not saying a particular runner can't be a genius. i just think that this board has plenty of smarts on it, even though none of us can run.

and think about that -- the utter cruelty! comparing us and our brains, a bunch of pf'ers and other problem-foot people, with healthy and lively athletic types on runners' boards! elliott, even you should know better. next you'll be posting on boards for people with leprosy and reprimanding them for not taking care of their skin and not having supreme social confidence like people on beauty boards do.

i have to go and be somewhat stupid now, since i can't run. see ya!

n
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Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:23 (100301)

thank you, carole. you seem pretty darn smart to me. are you a runner?

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 16:35 (100305)

ok, i'm back to the original wording here.

you say not that the day of the quiz will be a surprise but that the quiz itself 'will be a surprise.' though i fear i'm repeating myself, doesn't this indicate that the subject matter will be a surprise? or the format? or anything else except the day of the quiz? is the whole problem itself not poorly defined but simply the words used to present it?

i took a couple of logic courses in college, but that was a long time ago, and many illogical things have made themselves known to me in life since then.

n
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Re: On the riveting topic of toe jam - some thoughts

Julie on 11/15/02 at 16:48 (100308)

I can run, Nancy. I just don't feel like it. I'm not awfully smart - that's probably why.

Well - actually, I haven't tried for about 20 years. I probably couldn't now anyway.

And it IS 480 spaces. 60 people x 8 spaces each. (If anybody thought there were 5 spaces per foot, just look at your foot. But don't go too near the toe jam.)

:)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 17:00 (100309)

No, I can't be smart, Nancy. I like to walk, but running doesn't do a thing for me. It's a lot harder on the feet and it doesn't burn any more calories than walking the same distance, so I'm told.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/15/02 at 17:04 (100310)

Ah, but Carole, think of the endorphins! :)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/15/02 at 17:12 (100311)

Aren't endorphins released when one is sexually aroused, too?

I need to start dating again. With any luck, I could end up with a serious relationship with someone whom I find appealing in that way. Then I can be stupid and enjoy my endorphins, both. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/15/02 at 17:22 (100313)

oh good goddess i read that whole thread/ i need to get a life.

Re: I DO belong in first grade! :-)

Suzanne D on 11/15/02 at 19:13 (100322)

You are all far smarter than I am, I fear. But, in first grade we don't give 'pop quizzes' - unless you count the two bonus words I add at the end of each Friday's spelling test - so I guess I'm safe! The students know there will be an additional two words of the same pattern of the words they have studied, but they don't know what the words will be. The extra two words help me to know if they have internalized the patterns we have studied or simply memorized the ten words for the test.

I'm not really a logical person (ask my husband!)- more an intuitive thinker, I guess you might say. I DID enjoy Nancy Drew mysteries when I was about 10 or 12 years old, but that doesn't qualify me for these puzzles.

But it is fun reading everyone else's thoughts! Now maybe I'll go have a moon pie...

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

nancy s. on 11/15/02 at 19:26 (100323)

julie, you are smart.
carole, you are smart.

i used to run now and then. i experienced the 'runner's high' once after running two miles straight. it was an excellent drug.

but it didn't last. it bothered me that i wasn't running anywhere. just in circles.

before pf and all, i liked to hurry in my work (lugging antiques here, there, & everywhere, and moving them around into what i found to be artistic positions to each other). that's what i miss: hurrying while in the throes of some aesthetic seizure! it felt like flying, both physically and spiritually. it seemed like a more profound high than running for the sake of running. just true for me personally, folks!

after what most people have been through here, and are still going through, it's hard to think that actual running can be good for the feet, not to mention joints and tendons in other connected parts of the body.

i'm all for walking and other non-bludgeoning types of exercise.

n
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Re: Toe jamb

Nancy N on 11/15/02 at 22:06 (100336)

Forgive me for jumping in here and possibly bursting a bubble, but I am pretty sure that there's some mixed-up terminology going on here.

I believe the correct spelling for the anatomical area in question is 'toe jamb,' and refers to the area between the toes, where the icky stuff described above would tend to form, and not the icky stuff itself. I'm sure that has some other riveting scientific name, which I'm not fortunate enough to know (which means that the rest of you are fortunate enough not to have me share it with you!).

Just my two cents....

Re: Reasoning

wendyn on 11/15/02 at 23:11 (100341)

The class was wrong because instead of putting their effort and intelligence towards studying for the test, they wasted exactly 125% more time trying to figure out when it would be.

That of course, only applies to the 80% of the students who were in the room when the teacher announced the test(and not skipping or smoking in the bathroom).

Of the remaining 80% of the students where were present in the room, 40% were not paying attention to what she said anyway( of the 40% not paying attention, 80% were thinking about the opposite sex and the other 20% were thinking about last night's episode of Survivor).

Of the students who were paying attention, all but one of them spent all their time trying to figure out when the test was (because kids will do anything to avoid studying).

The one remaining student DID in fact know when the test was, because the teacher is his mom.

Re: Carole, that sounds better! eom

Julie on 11/16/02 at 02:50 (100346)

:)

Re: Toe jamb

Julie on 11/16/02 at 02:58 (100347)

Nancy N, you have not only burst my bubble, you have destroyed my illusions and even possibly the possibility of future fame, not to mention wealth. I was giving creative thought to possible environmentally-friendly uses to which all that toe jam could be put. It seemed like a real opening for a not-too-smart non-runner.

I shall never forgive you. Never!

:(

Re: Toe jamb

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 03:35 (100349)

ooohhh, nancy. how could you.

here you lead this social-butterfly life in reality, and you come on here after i've gone to bed and you set facts straight and are a real party pooper.

i was hoping this topic might take off and exceed the moon-pie thread.

n
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Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 03:40 (100350)

and also, thank you for making me laugh, even though every hope i had of getting back to sleep is now gone because of it.

it was worth it, though.

it's 4:37 a.m. here. i've been awake since 3:54. Just thought you all should know that, and maybe next time this happens at least one of you could drag yourself out of bed and keep me company.

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 04:17 (100351)

like i said, insomnia inspires me to think, though usually not well.

my fourth-grade teacher gave us a pop quiz once -- and i believe we were warned about it at the beginning of the week.

one day that week we were told to enter, one by one, a closet at the back of the room, and to decide while we were in there which machine we encountered in our daily lives was the most important, intelligent, and creative in the world.

each kid that came out of the closet had a happy and smug look on his or her face.

when my turn came, i went into the closet and shut the door. a small light was on in there, and a big mirror, too big to miss, hung on the wall. this was way before computers were mainstream; i think IBM was still boasting about its one gigantic mainframe computer that took up an entire room. typewriters were manual, not electric. people with dishwashers in their houses were considered extremely wealthy. tv still gave us about three channels. our parents' cars boasted only the flipping kind of numbers on the dashboard.

and i'm not THAT old! 53. a young 53, because i never had children -- due to what i perceived as a lack of total, down-to-earth sanity and stamina in myself.

do i digress? i think the kids didn't study and their reasoning was wrong because they made assumptions based on taking one day at a time. i still say that they were wrong by ruling out each and every day; the quiz could be popped on ANY day, and so the only thing to do would be to prepare for it before ANY of the days arrived.

the element of surprise is a tricky thing when it comes to time. ever try giving a surprise birthday party? even if this party is thrown not exactly on your birthday but on a day shortly before or shortly after, is it truly a surprise? if one even suspects a surprise party is in the works, one had better be prepared to act surprised before, during, and after the celebratory day.

n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 04:27 (100352)

p.s. Did i mention that i have the flu and my head feels like a gigantic storm cloud?

yesterday someone asked me when my shop would be open today. i said, 'twelve until noon.'

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:31 (100353)

It's 5:28 AM here and I just woke up. I normally set my alarm clock for 5:30, but this is a weekend so I was looking forward to sleeping in! My inner clock had a different idea of a fun Saturday. LOL

Carole C

Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:33 (100354)

Aw! I'm so sorry to hear that you have the flu. I hope you feel better soon!

Carole C

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 05:34 (100355)

i'm sorry, carole. you need to set your inner tuner on low for a weekend.
n
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Re: Suzanne D cannot give a pop quiz!!!

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 05:36 (100356)

thank you, carole! i'm going to lie down right now and try to read myself to sleep as the sun is rising at the end of the street. it'll be very tricky, but i'm giving it a go. have a great weekend
n.
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Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 05:41 (100357)

That's for sure! My inner clock and I seem to have completely different ideas of what a great weekend is like.

BUT.... I recently bought a big 'chair and a half' armchair, which is sooooo comfortable. It's great for reading and napping, so I'll do some of that this afternoon.

I'm reading an interesting book called Mafia Kingfish, which is about the history of the New Orleans Mafia and their possible connection with Oswald and the JFK assassination. It's utterly fascinating to read about such stuff while living right here in New Orleans. But fascinating or not, I invariably fall asleep in that chair. LOL

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

wendyn on 11/16/02 at 07:24 (100367)

Good morning Nancy. I'm also up early, but my alarm was set. I DID NOT sleep well last night. I still have trouble on rare occassions with my heart rate going a little too fast. Normally it slows down after a while, but it seems to be persisting for a bit this time. Makes is hard to sleep when your heart is insisnting that it's got lots of work to do, even when you're body is worn out.

Mind you, it was running around 100 bpm - not 166 (like when it really goes off).

Now that I'm up, it's doing the same thing this morning.

Here's hoping that it will settle down before long!

Re: Where's your creativity???

Nancy N on 11/16/02 at 08:15 (100370)

Now, come on, guys.... knowing that the term refers to the toe area and not the stuff you find there should, in fact, open up all sorts of creative possibilities!! After all, if the stuff isn't called 'toe jam,' then clearly someone needs to give it a really outstanding name.

Which of us will rise to the occasion? I know someone will come up with something good--John H if no other. So the question is, who will beat him to it?

(And I'll probably be offline for a while today, hopefully not tomorrow, as I upgrade my iMac to the new OS. So no worries about further bursted bubbles!)

Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Julie on 11/16/02 at 09:31 (100376)

Carole, Lee Harvey Oswald went to the same Junior High School as I did (he was much later) JHS 117 in the Bronx. And I went to university with Ruth Hyde Paine, in whose home Oswald and his wife Marina were living when the assassination took place.

What's the connection with the New Orleans Mafia?

I wonder what the statistical probability is of two posters at heelspurs.com each having a connection with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Elliott should have some ideas....:)

Re: Surprise party

Julie on 11/16/02 at 09:36 (100377)

Nancy I was given a surprise party by my flatmates for my 25th birthday. In Chicago,that was, just before I left for Europe (so it was also a going-away party).

Alas, a friend who didn't know it was going to be a surprise gave the game away the day before. I didn't want to spoil the surprise, so I had to spend the whole day pretending I didn't notice the preparations, and preparing to act surprised. It was an exhausting day!

But it was a nice party.

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:23 (100387)

'Digital Dustbunnies'?

As in fingers and toes being digits. I think 'Digital Dustbunnies' has a sort of euphonic ring to it.

Besides, it doesn't sound nearly as gross as that other term.

Carole C

Re: Insomnia, naps, and a good book

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:52 (100389)

Oswald was born at Charity hospital in New Orleans. To quote from the book, on p. 139,

'Oswald had grown up in an area of New Orleans that was dominated by various illegal gambling operations controlled by the Mafia. When Oswald was a teenager, he and his mother lived in a small apartment over a saloon at 126 Exchange Alley in New Orleans' then run-down Vieux Carre, and he attended Beauregard Junior High in the same neighborhood.'

Which is not to say that he didn't spend some time in the Bronx too, but I hadn't heard of it before (very interesting!) and he was a native New Orleanian and grew up in New Orleans. The Vieux Carre is the French name for the French Quarter.

Anyway, Oswald's Uncle was a bookie for New Orleans Mafia leader Carlos Marcello, and his mother had Mafia friends too, although she was not involved in that. Oswald himself was a runner and a collector for his uncle's bookmaking operation in the summer of 1963, and maybe more.

There is lots more interesting stuff. I'm still reading. :)

Carole C

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:57 (100391)

Julie, if you haven't done so already, it might help to eliminate caffeine for a few weeks.

My doctor suggested that for my heartbeat irregularities last spring, and it really helped. After completely eliminating coffee for a while, now I have resumed drinking coffee but if it starts again I cut back, and so on.

But, I'd be willing to bet that everyone tells you this and that you've already cut out caffeine! If not, it might help.

Carole C

Re: I meant Wendy!!! LOL (nm)

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 10:58 (100392)

.

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 11:21 (100396)

Julie,

That's very interesting! I found a link to a chronology of Oswald's life, at http://www.madbbs.com/~tracy/lho/chrono.htm

It does say at this website that he was in New York for 17 months from August, 1952 to January, 1954, when his mother Marguerite moved back to New Orleans. It's not mentioned in the book, or in Garrison's book on the possible assassination conspiracy ('On the Trail of the Assassins'), but apparently there is some evidence of a Lee Oswald being in both places during that time. What an enigma to explore.

Carole C

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Julie on 11/16/02 at 11:35 (100401)

That's right, Carole. I read about Oswald's attendance at JHS 117 in the newspaper reports at the time, but I'd forgotten the years. It was indeed between 1952 and 1954. I was at that school from 1947-48. Now I'm intrigued (about his being in two places at once) and will look into the link you gave.

Re: Oswald's teenage years

Julie on 11/16/02 at 11:40 (100403)

Carole

Here's the line from that website:

'September (1953)

The Oswalds move to Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and Lee enters P.S. 117, where he is frequently absent from classes.'

It made a big impression on me in 1963, by which time I was living in England, that he'd gone for a while to the same school as me.

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 12:36 (100405)

Julie,

I think that is so neat (and so chilling!) that you went to the same junior high as Lee Harvey Oswald!

There are other websites that are less sure of where he really was than the first website I gave you. Here's one:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.g-dr.html

I guess that the confusion on the issue is why it's not mentioned in the books that I've read so far. BUT... if he was actually there for nearly 17 months, as there seems to be considerable evidence that he was, I wonder what his mother Marguerite was doing while they were there! The plot thickens... :)

Back to the New Orleans Mafia connection, Lee Harvey Oswald was born in New Orleans and grew up here. His mother was Creole, with the maiden name of Claverie, and raised him alone because his father was dead. Apparently Oswald and his relatives knew people in the New Orleans Mafia. His uncle, Dutz Murret, also lived in the French Quarter and was a bookie for the Mafia but wasn't a major Mafia figure. This was the uncle Oswald worked for during the summer before the assassination.

Carole C

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 12:42 (100406)

Nancy....I think they have 'Toe Marmalade' in England....LOL!!!!
Richard

Re: A+++++

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 12:44 (100407)

WOO HOOO!!!!
Richard

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:04 (100409)

you're probably right, richard. they must have all kinds of marmalade in england that we don't even know about. maybe skunk marmalade, hair marmalade, moon-pie marmalade, emu-oil marmalade. the list could be endless, and julie will no doubt enlighten us.
n
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Re: LOL!! (nm)

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 13:06 (100410)

.

Re: Reasoning -- A++++++++++++++++++++ for wendy

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:07 (100411)

i think wendy developed some kind of condition in the past year that causes this. is that right, wendy? it does not sound comfortable! aside from that, are you basically going to be ok with it? i can't remember the details.
n
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Re: Creativity

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:11 (100412)

yours is good, carole. i'm trying to think up something also less gross, but my mind is stuck on 'jamb crud,' which is very bad. i can't help it; i'm sick as a dog. am on another quick break from the shop. i don't even know why i'm out there just waiting to give the flu to somebody who might walk in, especially when no one is walking in because it's snowing here.

n
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Re: Surprise party

nancy s. on 11/16/02 at 13:19 (100413)

well, julie, it IS exhausting to act surprised, isn't it? i'm glad yours was a good party anyway, though.

i was given a 'surprise' party in about the sixth grade, at someone's house. figured it out beforehand, of course, so went through the same thing. i liked that they gave me the record 'liberty valence' as a present, though, a song i liked at the time.

i worked at earthwatch for four years in the early 1980s. they were always giving 'surprise' parties, probably because we were understaffed and overworked. at one of those parties, a woman said, 'oh my god, you people -- if three blue volkswagens drove into the driveway you'd use it as an excuse to have a party.'

elliott, where are you? i hope you haven't lost your sense of humor, after all this time!

n.
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Re: Surprise party

Richard, C.Ped on 11/16/02 at 14:12 (100417)

Well....at least now Elliot can't complain that his post did not get any responses. :-)
Richard

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 14:27 (100421)

Nancy, go home! It's not wrong to 'give yourself permission' to go home. Your customers will be glad that they didn't catch your flu, and you might get sicker working out there on a snowy day. If you don't go home, I hope you are at least staying warm (well, relatively warm).

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 14:29 (100422)

(giggle) Richard, you're hilarious. I was thinking the same thing. :)

Carole C

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:33 (100426)

Actually, Carole, Lee Harvey Oswald went to the same school as me.

Yes, chilling, isn't it?

Thanks for the fill-in on the NOLA Mafia connection: it's all absolutely fascinating.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:35 (100428)

Sorry, Nancy and Richard. I don't like marmalade, and am deaf and blind to its varieties. But I'm sure you're right, Nancy. (Except maybe not moon-pie marmalade.)

Re: Blue Volkswagens

Julie on 11/16/02 at 15:39 (100429)

Nancy, we had a blue Volkswagen for 17 years!

I have a feeling Elliott has gone away in disgust. He probably doesn't like toe jam. Or toe marmalade.

I think you should go to bed now.

So should I.

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

wendyn on 11/16/02 at 16:09 (100433)

Nancy, I was diagnosed in the last year - but I imagine I've had it for a long time. Not sure if I spelled it right or not.

It's not serious, and as long as I stay away from certain meds and caffiene I'm usually okay. Thanks for the reminder Carole! I sometimes have half a cup of real coffee in the morning, mixed with decaf. I also will drink real tea. I'm hoping that's not doing it.

My one and only true vice left is a fondness for red wine. I'm noticing more often that if I have any more than one glass, it can trigger this too. This is just my luck. No more cigarettes, no more caffiene, and eventually - probably no more red wine.

If the doctor tells me no more sex, I'm throwing in the towel.

Nancy - from what my doctor said, and from what I've read - it isn't a serious condition. It tends to be more of an annoyance.

It was like this for about an hour after I got up this morning, and I've been fine ever since.

Life has been busy the last few months, and I've been spending A LOT of time on a math class I'm taking (Elliott is my hero since I found out he's a math whiz). I don't think stress is a contributing factor, but who knows? I like the class, I (amazingly enough) have found out that I actually really like math, and I'm doing well - but it's still creating real time strain at this time of year. I haven't been able to take yoga since the summer (because of this class) - so I'm looking forward to going back in January.

Re: Oswald's 17 months in the Bronx

Carole C in NOLA on 11/16/02 at 18:20 (100439)

What's also kind of spooky is that the book lists the names of his five aunts and uncles on his mother's side, and several of them still appear to be in the telephone book here. I guess they just had to go on with their lives. How dreadful.

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

elliott on 11/16/02 at 18:57 (100443)

No, I haven't lost my sense of humor, even if all you goodie-goodies give the usual knee-jerk support to each other at my expense; just my usual weekend disappearing act, nothing more. Regardless, it was a pleasant surprise to return and see that my objective was achieved: this thread just blew away moon pies! There is hope yet!

I'll post next week (the articles are at work) an outline of the published attempts at solutions (I have a feeling you won't be happy; I wasn't either). If most of you don't want me to bother, give a shout now and save me the effort.

[]

Re: Surprise party

Suzanne D on 11/16/02 at 21:13 (100455)

Of course we would like to read the attempts at solutions, Elliott.

I've been called a 'goodie-goodie' before, so that doesn't really bother me if I was included in the group to which you referred. But I didn't intend to give support to anyone at anyone else's expense, nor do I think anyone else did, either.

Have a nice weekend!
Suzanne :-)

Re: Surprise party

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:05 (100467)

my mother and my husband will be thrilled when i tell them you called me a goodie-goodie. it's what they've always wanted but never thought they had. thanks, elliott!

i'm very interested in reading the outline of the published attempts at solutions. my flu-brain needs the exercise. can't you go in to the office today and do it.

n
.

Re: The giggle

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 09:10 (100470)

Thanks for the giggle Elliott, I may have been called a lot of names - but I don't recal goodie-goodie ever being one of them!

Good to see that your usual knee jerk responses are as predictable as ours!!!

;)

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:17 (100471)

wendy, it's good that the condition is not as serious as the name. i hope your doc prefaced the diagnosis at the time with the reassuring info! i hope this isn't related, but maybe you should know that because of the other condition we share that produces similar symptoms, i really had to cut out caffeine. for years i tried mixing the real thing with decaf, etc etc etc, and in the end found that i felt much better without any caffeine at all. if you have to give it up completely in the end, i do hope you can find a vice to replace it with, something other than the things you've already had to give up. good luck! also, i admire your liking of the math class. i hate to sound like a typical 'girl,' but i despised math in every form. algebra was the only course i ever had to take twice.
n.
.

Re: Creativity

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 09:23 (100473)

thank you, carole, and anyone else who encouraged me to call it quits yesterday and go home and go to bed. i didn't do it, because i didn't read your advice until after the day was over. today i'm doing it, though! wearing only a bathrobe and spending frequent time in bed with a book on the san francisco earthquake of 1906 (way too many adjectives and similes and metaphors, and that was just in the setting-the-stage part -- the earthquake is just happening now).

i'd get more rest if i didn't have to keep checking the board, but you know how that goes!

n.
.

Re: paroxsymal atrial tachycardia

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 10:00 (100481)

Nancy - the doctor was reassuring, and of course I did a lot of my own research on the net. Really isn't an exciting condition (THAT was reassuring!)

You're right, I probably should just leave caffiene alone entirely. (sigh)

On a more positive note, I went to an early Christmas party last night. The wine was supplied by someone who owns a wine shop here. Sampled (in moderation) some wonderful wine, and found out that Australian Shiraz is a new favourite. Of course, when I inquired about the price - it was a wine that was about twice as expensive as the others. (sigh)

Re: Creativity

Carole C in NOLA on 11/17/02 at 10:01 (100482)

Sounds like a great book to doze off with and get well! I'm glad you're resting and hope you get well soon.

Carole C

Re: Australian Shiraz

Carole C in NOLA on 11/17/02 at 10:16 (100485)

But Wendy, this is wonderful. What a perfect addition to your 'Christmas list'... a bottle or even a case of Australian Shiraz depending on how much the person wants to spend. Be sure to mention it to your husband and all your friends, and you will probably get enough to last all year. :)

Carole C

Re: Surprise party

Julie on 11/17/02 at 12:55 (100509)

I had a seriously sore knee at the end of last week.

It must have been all that jerking.

Re: Julie

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 17:23 (100515)

I have had a sore knee on and off too. I never know why sometimes they hurt.

Maybe you are on to something?

Re: Carole

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 17:28 (100518)

That is a great suggestion Carole! I never have any idea what to say when people ask for gift suggestions.

Re: The giggle

elliott on 11/17/02 at 19:18 (100524)

Don't giggle too hard. The 'goodie-goodies' are goodie-goodies only in their own minds, not mine. I never counted, but there's around 8 of them; call them the Great 8, or G8 for short. They pretend to be the defenders of goodness and decency around here. They dictate what kinds of posts and topics are considered acceptable, and then break their own standards in two notable ways: 1) they never ever criticize one of their own even for flagrantly overstepping the bounds they themselves imposed; and 2) they will support another G8 member by taking (sometimes subtle) digs at a nonmember. All in the name of goodness and decency, of course. Some have even been known to come out of a three-week break from the boards just to give poor ole me some knee-jerk criticism, tiresome and predictable it hasbecome. Giggle.

Re: Sigh

wendyn on 11/17/02 at 20:13 (100527)

If it worth a response, I might bother.

Re: The giggle

nancy s. on 11/17/02 at 21:09 (100530)

elliott, we all have our judgmental moments, but you seem to be one of the most judgmental of all here; and you make one-dimensional generalizations about individuals and label them as a 'group.' you're dreaming.

your view of the great variety of people on these boards is strange to me. i wonder if you ever question it.

Re: Sigh

Julie on 11/18/02 at 03:24 (100541)

I think it probably is worth a response, Wendy. This is what I'd like to say to Elliott (if I were responding :))

You're speaking of (and to) a few people who like each other most of the time, and who have become e-friends (and in some cases real friends). It was natural that that should have happened, because they (we) have been around posting for longer, and more consistently, than others, so they (we) have got to e-know each other and bonds of a sort have formed.

Every one of them (us) has made efforts over the past year or to to speak to you, to be friendly to you, to include you, despite the occasional flare-ups during which you cannot seem to help judging and insulting people. That's because we value your knowledge, and your excellent posts which have been so helpful to people here.

It's you who has dreamed up a 'group' that you don't feel part of. It's you who has put yourself outside it. That is, if there is any 'outside' - I don't accept that there is a 'group', and certainly not an exclusive one.

Lighten up, Elliott, and come and play.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/18/02 at 11:16 (100569)

Julie: I was at Yankee stadium in 1957. I think I told you I lived on Flatbush Avenue one summer with my aunt and uncle who was a Psychatrist at the Brooklyn State Mental Hospital. Lived on grouunds. Only a mile from Ebbets Field so watched the real Dodgers during my college years. Worked off Wall St. on Maiden Lane at Home Insurance Company. My cousing was going to Erasmus High which you may know.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/18/02 at 11:47 (100570)

Big Supprise:

1. your girl friend telling you that you will be a father.
2. Al Gore learning he was not President.
3. Publisher Clearing House knocking on your front door.
4. Waking up and having no foot pain.
5. Scott making up his bed.
6. Texas A & M beating Texas.
7. Saddam having no weapons of mass destruction.
8. All ESWT treatments with all machines cost $250.
9. All scientist agree that low power and high power ESWT are equally good.
10.Dr. Z quits his practice and becomes a Rabbi. He donates his machine to Elliot for further study.
11.Carole finds Atlantis 37.5 miles south of New Orleans in 321 feet if water,
12. Judy gets 5 hits, drives in 12 runs, and hits an inside the park home run in the finals of her baseball tournament.
13. Wendy discovers that walking in snow barefooted cured her PF/TTS.
14. Nancy N. goes to work for Steve Jobs.
15. Nancy S. gets John H's mysterious old Pipe for $10 and discovers it was the pipe smoked by Sitting Bull and becomes a millionaire and moves to Mexico.
12. Brian joing the CIA and disappears.
13. Dr. Ed replaces Dr. Phil on TV.
14. Sunny discovers the meaning of life.
15. Julie colaborates with Sunny and writes a book on the meaning of life.
16. Kathy goes on vacation to Destin and finds the healing sands cure her feet and never returns to her old home.
17. Bill turns out to be Peewee Herman.
18. Fake Bill turns out to be someone from Healthtronics.
19. Richard produces the most popular orthotic ever produced. It is made of solid cast iron. He of course becomes wealthy.
20. Elliott gets on the Survivor TV progam and is thrown off the island before the filming begins.
21. Steve goes to Dr. Z for his 100th ESWT treatment before Dr. Z leaves for his new job.
22. All the heelspurs board members meet in Muncee, Indiana for one last meeting and all hold hands and sing 'We are the World'..

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/18/02 at 12:31 (100571)

John, I love your list! LOL

I do have a few comments... for example,

'6. Texas A & M beating Texas.'

Any Aggie knows that A&M has just had a few bad years. Aggie football rules! Long live the 12th Man, and Gig 'Em! Those T-sips don't have a chance next year.

Another comment:

'11.Carole finds Atlantis 37.5 miles south of New Orleans in 321 feet if water'

Oh goodie! Can I have the movie rights, too? :)

And lastly,

'4. Waking up and having no foot pain.'

John, it's still a surprise to me every morning. I gingerly get out of bed and test my feet incredulously. I still haven't been able to take it for granted and maybe I never will.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

nancy s. on 11/18/02 at 13:33 (100573)

23. john h writes the real story of heelspurs.com since its inception, tries to name it 'Animal Farm' but remembers that title was taken years ago and so earns only a modest amount of money from its publication, and spends it all on feeding the wild animals of the south instead of getting another eswt treatment for himself. he makes a complete recovery anyway.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

nancy s. on 11/18/02 at 13:41 (100574)

24. suzanne is voted valedictorian for the heelspurs.com graduation. but she's too humble to accept the honor and turns it down!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Suzanne D on 11/18/02 at 15:30 (100584)

You're sweet, Nancy! But, you're right: I couldn't accept that. Too many people far smarter than me on this site!

Thanks for including me, though.

Suzanne :-)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/18/02 at 16:57 (100589)

John, I'm glad to hear you were at Yankee Stadium in 1957. That was after my time (I don't mean I'm older than you, we are the same age as you know), I mean that by then I'd stopped going to baseball games. But I spent my childhood Saturdays either at Yankee Stadium or the NY Giants' home playing field (I can't remember its name - how awful!) and switched weekly from being a Giant fan to a Yankee fan.

I HATED the Brooklyn Dodgers. Everyone in the Bronx hated them.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Julie on 11/18/02 at 16:59 (100591)

Sunny sounds nice, and I'd be glad to collaborate with him on a book about the meaning of life.

Re: John

wendyn on 11/18/02 at 22:00 (100613)

John, I knew that you are a creative, funny, intelligent guy...but you have really set a new standard for yourself!!!

Thanks for the best laugh I have had all week!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 08:17 (100622)

Sunny is a guy in this case? Thanks for the tip.

For some reason I had just been assuming that the name Sunny was a nickname for Sonja. I've known a few Sunny's that were Sonja's.

I think you two would write a great book on the meaning of life. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Julie on 11/19/02 at 08:42 (100624)

Carole, I really don't know! Now you've got me wondering. I always assumed that Sunny Jacob was a guy. Perhaps if s/he is listening, we will get enlightened? (That should help with the book, too.)

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/19/02 at 08:53 (100626)

i was born in brooklyn and lived near flatbush ave and my whole family should see a psychiatrist. see how much we have in common?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/19/02 at 09:00 (100627)

everyone in the bronx hated the dodgers? i was a dodger fan, but this makes sense. everyone from the bronx who moved to our neighborhood beat us up to let us know who was tougher. there was never any doubt. i think being a dodger fan during the winning reign of the yankees turned me into someone who always roots for the underdog. i just got used to it.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 09:28 (100629)

Sunny is a guy-

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/19/02 at 09:30 (100630)

Everyone in the Bronx hated everyone period.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 11:51 (100634)

Thanks, Julie and John! I should have guessed from the 'Jacob' part, but I was just thinking he was a 'Sonja'. :)

Carole C

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 11:53 (100635)

But now that I think about it, maybe Sunny is like Sonny, as in Sonny Liston and others.

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/19/02 at 16:54 (100669)

Paula, in the Bronx we were always terrified of the tough kids from Brooklyn (I have a feeling we've been through this before, come to think of it). You're right - dodger fans were definitely people who rooted for the underdog. A Dodger win was a major and highly unusual event. We Yankee fans could never believe it when it happened.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

Julie on 11/19/02 at 16:54 (100670)

John! That is simply NOT TRUE! Where do you get your information?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:21 (100682)

Carol: the last Sonja I was familar with was Sonja Henie. Probably only Julie knows who she is.

P.S. Carole: Lousiana was just named the state with the worst health care in the U.S. Arkansas was #47. Between AR,MS, and LA we are usually at the bottom of all list.

Re: Names

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:24 (100685)

Carole: Sonny Liston?? you go girl!

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

john h on 11/19/02 at 18:27 (100687)

Julie: I got it from the Jerry Seinfeld TV show.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 18:33 (100689)

Hey, Sonny Liston was pretty amazing, wasn't he! The Clay-Liston fight was the talk of my fancy-schmantzy private high school. We could think of nothing else and there were many spirited discussions about each contender at lunch.

Our principal bet us that if Clay won, we'd get Friday off, but if Liston won, we'd have to come to school an extra day on Saturday. Liston was highly favored by the bookmakers, but in a boisterous assembly our high school voted almost unanimously to take the principal up on his proposed wager.

Of course, Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) won, in a fight that made history. Well, at least for me. :)

Carole C

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 18:41 (100693)

I know who she was...... an ice skater. But my godparents were Sonja and John, and my daughter's little playmate's mother was Sonja, and they were both Sunny's as well as some others.

John: Louisiana is almost always #50, with Mississippi #49, in everything. Sometimes we trade and Mississippi is #50 and Louisiana is #49. Yet we have almost 9% sales taxes were I live, and with all the other taxes I feel like we pay our share in taxes to the state and local communities.

We just put our former four term governor, Edwin Edwards, in jail for corruption and racketeering, plus the state insurance commissioner, and 100 city workers were arrested for corruption as well and who knows who else.

So now, you can understand why I am becoming more and more intensely interested in Louisiana politics. If/when we can get this place cleaned up, there is money to make us at least #25, for heavens sake! :)

Pardon the rant! We have a wonderful state and it's easy to care passionately about Louisiana.

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 19:09 (100694)

John, I was going to go get a list, any list, to prove my point that Louisiana is always #50. So, I got the Census 2000 statistics on percentage of high school grads in each state. The nationwide average is 80.4%. Surprisingly, here's how the bottom of the list came out!

(drum rolls)

#45 - Alabama: 75.3% are high school grads
#46 - Arkansas: 75.3%
#47 - West Virginia: 75.2%
#48 - Louisiana: 74.8%
#49 - Kentucky: 74.1%
#50 - Mississippi: 72.9%

How did Kentucky get in there? Suzanne, your state needs you! And I was wrong about Louisiana. We are proudly holding the 48th place, and not the bottom of the list, for once. And John, you can hold your head up high, for sure. :)

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Suzanne D on 11/19/02 at 19:23 (100695)

Yes, Carole, we are consistently near the bottom in education, much to my disappointment. We have always had a high percentage of high school drop-outs; years ago many stopped their education to work on the farm. Now, that's not so often the case, but the drop-out rate continues to alarm many and is an on-going project throughout the state.

I have always been proud that my grandfather boarded away from home to be able to attend high school as there was not one near him. That took a lot of effort and understanding that education was important.

Suzanne :-)

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 20:56 (100698)

You have good reason to be proud of your grandfather! It must not have been easy for a young boy to leave home and board elsewhere to attend high school. I didn't realize that Kentucky had education problems, but from what you said I can see that that they do. How rewarding it must be to see the love of learning beginning in your children, and how great your hopes must be for them.

When I lived in rural Mississippi and taught school there more than 25 years ago, there was no mandatory education. Any student could drop out at any age, and they often did to help out on the farm or family business. It seemed very difficult for many to stay in school. I guess that is why they ranked #50.

Carole C

Re: Names

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:32 (100702)

Carole: You seem to know a little about the fight game. You supprise me. My favorite was Sugar Ray Leonard who held to division titles. Early on I was clearly no Ali fan but he made a believer out of me and perhaps was the best of all time. Howerver, you cannot overlook that guy from Brockton, Mass--Rocky Marcino who I think is the only undefeated heavywight champ of all time. What kind of school did you say you went to?

Re: aww, c'mon guys!-Big Supprise

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:33 (100703)

Carole: Maybe he can get the cell that Huey Long should have occupied.

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

john h on 11/19/02 at 21:39 (100704)

When I was in grade school in rural N.C. probably 60% of all the boys dropped out of school at 16 which was the legal limit. They all went to work on the farms with their parents. A lot of kids failed grades in those days. Some might stay in the 6th grade for 2-3 years but at 16 it was i am out of here.By the way-the girls got paddled just like the boys only not as frequently. Even that onery Betty Greenwood got it good one day in the 7th grade by Mr. Lovingood when she sassed him. And that is 'sassed' not 'dissed'.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:25 (100707)

I loved watching Sugar Ray. Rocky Marciano is the fighter you mean. He was something else. Although I didn't start watching the fights regularly every week until the 1960's, so he was just a couple of years before my time, I saw his fights many times on the classics.

I still love boxing, but I don't watch it much any more because I'm too cheap to pay for it. I really think it was a great detriment to the sport when they put it on pay per view or the pay channels. Also, I think they should throw anybody out of the sport forever who bites off someone else's ear during a televised boxing match, and put him in jail for assault instead, but that's just my opinion.

I was about the only non-rich kid at a fancy private prep school, with a principal who was pretty cool for someone over 70 years old at the time. Sorry if I confused you by calling it a 'Fancy-shmantsy' school.. that is just slang for very fancy, la-de-da, and so on. :)

Carole C

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:34 (100708)

At my grade school we got whatever the boys got. Usually instead of paddling (in private) they would hit us on the hand with a ruler in public if we were unruly. Mrs. Morrisey broke a 12' hardwood ruler on a little boy named Jeffrey's hand in second grade, I remember. Being a budding heelspurs.com goodie-goodie, I actually liked school, never intentionally misbehaved, and never got hit with the ruler. But once, I was sent to the office and had to sit there and think for fifteen minutes, and I was tearfully repentent by that time.

I think that if I had had a teacher named Mr. Lovingood, I might have got in trouble too, for sassing the teacher. Too tempting!

Carole C

Re: Huey Long

Carole C in NOLA on 11/19/02 at 22:40 (100709)

Huey Long sure should have occupied one. Have you ever seen the movie 'Blaze'? Friends of mine who knew Huey Long said that Paul Newman captured the real Huey Long, in his mannerisms and speech and so on, and that watching that movie was just like he was back.

We have a few nice empty cells at Angola (prison) ready and waiting for the rest of our woefully corrupt politicians. Edwin Edwards is in jail in Dallas, for ten years. I guess they decided he was so bad they had to send him out of the state.

Carole C

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 00:52 (100711)

ah, rocky marciano. my husband grew up in holland, michigan, where there was some kind of big fighters' training center, and rocky used to train there. phil's dad was a photographer who took and kept many professional photos of the fighters, and there are several of rocky in his collection. my favorite is one of phil at the age of 7, perched on a table in his little cowboy outfit with rocky leaning next to him and a look of utter awe on phil's face. we have that one framed in our house. rocky signed it, 'to my pal phil from rocky marciano.'
nancy
.

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 01:04 (100713)

say, do you suppose if we took this rocky pic and autograph to sotheby's, they would auction it off and we'd become millionaires?

Re: John

Nancy N on 11/20/02 at 05:45 (100724)

Ditto that, John! I'll let you know what Steve Jobs has to say just as soon as I start working for him! Though, that would require me to move to Cupertino, and from all I've heard, I'm not sure that I'd like working for him. Apparently he and Bill Gates are not all that different temperament-wise.

Re: Names

Carole C in NOLA on 11/20/02 at 06:26 (100725)

YES!!!

Carole C

Re: Names

nancy s. on 11/20/02 at 08:43 (100732)

thanks, carole. dern it, though, i don't think we could bear to part with it, now that i really think about it. how sad!

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Richard, C.Ped on 11/20/02 at 09:39 (100735)

Wow...I thought South Carolina was at the bottom of the list. Maybe that is in SAT and other test scores.
Richard

Re: census stats: which state is #50?

Carole C in NOLA on 11/20/02 at 11:04 (100739)

The percentage of high school grads in South Carolina was 76.3% in Census 2000, so while they are like most other Southern states in not being too close to the 80.4% value for the entire U.S., they also are not right at the bottom.

Now SAT scores might be another matter. That isn't in the Census data. I'm not sure that everyone takes the SAT, though.

Carole C

Re: Names

john h on 11/20/02 at 11:44 (100743)

Nancy S you are the woman. A signed picture of Rocky Marcino! I lived in a first generation Italian neighborhood and as you would expect he was the hero of heroes. He was not a good technical fighter but would just lower his head and thow punches until the other guy was beaten. He could take a lickin and keep on tickin as Timex says.

Re: aww, c'mon guys!

pala on 11/21/02 at 17:55 (100839)

neither could we believe the dodgers won. fortunately the dodgers got me used to being a democrat

Re: Huey Long

john h on 11/21/02 at 21:31 (100852)

Carole: A new list appeared today of the most unhealthy states to live in. Guess who was 1st or the worst most unhealthy state? Yep-The good ole Pelican state.

Re: Huey Long

Carole C in NOLA on 11/21/02 at 21:40 (100858)

That figures. We're always first in everything bad, and last in everything good (except when Mississippi out-does us now and then).

If I find out that Louisiana is numero uno when it comes to PF, I'll pack my bags! Enough is enought! LOL

Actually, I feel pretty healthy right now. I had my flu shot and I feel like I'm immune to everything now. My feet don't hurt. My only complaint is that I'm getting older, so if you find a cure for that please let me know.

They are probably saying that we're more unhealthy, because of the good food here which makes us a bit chubby as a state. Also, we have a lot of poverty here and there is a need for more medical care among the poor.

Carole C

Re: Huey Long

pala on 11/22/02 at 09:59 (100894)

are you talking about louisiana? this will cheer my freind larry up, from alabama. he says if it wasn't for mississippi alabamans would feel real bad about themselves. maybe now he will have two states to boost his self-esteem. here is one of my alabama experiences. i looked to buy land there a few years ago and ended up in wedowee. beautiful, pristine, nice lake. sitting in the local diner i struck a convesation up with the waitress. i asked her what wedowee was known for, thinking i'd get historic or manufactuing information. she proudly said that it is most famous for this: a few years back an interacial couple wanted to go the the senior prom. so the principal of the school cancelled the prom! the feds told him he couldn't do that, the prom must go on. the night before the prom, the school building burned down. so there was no prom. the perps were never caught. i asked her what happened to the principal. i swear she said he is now the superintendent of schools there. i never checked these facts, she could be making this up, but larry says it sounds just about right to him. unbelievable. this pretty much decided me against buying land there. that and the fact that every time someone took us out to look for land larry and i would bet how quick the land owner would insult everything we were or were friends with. within five minutes jews, homosexuals, liberals, blacks and secular humanists (not sure what they are but they are apparently in league with satan) were mentioned and not in a nice way. maybe the fact that larry was a native gave an opening for this sort of talk. or maybe because we were from atlanta and look like old hippies, and they were baiting us. maybe they didn't really mean it. we never knew. we gave up the idea of owning rural land in the south.

Re: Louisiana

Carole C in NOLA on 11/22/02 at 11:33 (100908)

It sounds about right to me too. The south is quite a culture shock for Californians and east coasters who come here and expect people to share their outlook on the world. The waitress was probably just trying to steer you in the right direction, since you were thinking of buying land there. Actually, when you think about it that was pretty nice of her because like you said, I doubt you would have been happy there.

It's easy to be judgemental when you jump into a drastically different region from the outside, like that. I should know; I've lived in Northern California for six years, in Southern California for six years, in Louisiana for six years, and in five other states (mostly southern but including my family home which is Hawaii). But, I enjoy living here as do many people. When comparing the South to other parts of the country, there are some tremendous plusses and tremendous minuses.

Although I may complain a lot about Louisiana, that's sort of a local hobby. Everybody complains about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody wants to move... it just means that there is room for improvement by those who stay. My only real, substantial gripe about living in Louisiana is the hurricanes. They terrify me. I have to learn to be tougher about them and develop a sense of calm and 'whatever happens, happens' type of attitude, I guess, or else move away some day.

Carole C

Re: Louisiana

john h on 11/26/02 at 10:31 (101181)

Having lived in Florida,Georgia,North Carolina,Lousiana,Texas,Mass,N.J, Wyoming,Illinois, Montana, Nebraska, Kansas, Arkansas, Colorodo and spent a lot of time in most of the other 50 states I find in the long run people are much the same where ever you go. You can adjust and happiness is not found where you are but with the people who you are with. I am a warm weather person but some of my fondest times were in Cheyenne, Wyoming. We just happened to have a group of people who we had fun with and many common interest. The flat lands,blowing snow, and big winds made no difference.

Re: Richard, what is toe jam?

marco z on 9/28/05 at 23:11 (183769)

its when a toe is jammed up your ass.