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to Ellen J and RC

Posted by Sheila S on 12/01/02 at 11:39 (101548)

Posted by Sheila S on 12/01/02 at 11:37 View Thread

Below is a copy of a post I made to someone on here a few days ago. I have to disagree with your post - because if it weren't for my chiropractor I wouldn't be walking (and it was my chiropractor who helped discover the problem with my foot when my podiatrist couldn't)... BUT I will agree, wholeheartedly, that there are some very bad one's out there. I've been there, which is why I did so much study on it. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out the benefits and truth of chiropractic philosophies and methods once you spend enough time studying. I included, below, a very simplified description of the dynamics of back/hip/neck injury and the body's way of compensating. I advise ANYone to study up on methods and do interviews before selecting a chiropractor.

Worker's Comp is the biggest reason chiropractors are slowly getting accepted, they've proven that chiropractics help heal back and neck injuries much faster than MD's. MD's lose alot of money when a person finds a good chiropractor. Just as arthritis doctors are losing alot of money each time a patient begins using the Glucosomine/Chondroitin combination (see the book The Arthritis Cure - written by an MD!!)

As to the website you posted, think about this - this site we are posting on.......... doesn't it sound like foot doctors aren't worth a plug nickel? And none of them do any good? All the surgeries are a waste of money (cha-ching!) and no treatment works? Don't all the foot docs people have gone to sound like quacks? Is that REALLY the case? Unfortunately it's human nature to search on here when you have a problem, not when things are great and you want to tell the world. You also have to consider who owns the site (which I don't know and it doesn't say).

Goodness knows, I could start a website called 'foot-docs-neuroma-surgery-watch.com and warn everyone about what a crock it is and NOT to see any of THOSE types of doctors.......

AGAIN, I state strongly, there are good one's and bad one's. Do your homework, but the good one's can save your lifestyle, AND prevent an injured child from having future problems (ie. my brother jammed his hips when he was 12, sliding into home base...he still has crooked hips and when he got older, back problems too. He sees a chiropractor and is able to function and work again). And, btw, I have my neck worked on anytime it needs it. But I also did my homework and have a good chiropractor, and one who will recommend I see an MD when I need to.

Here's a little horror story to get the point home: I went to an MD once about my sinuses/allergies. He ordered a CT scan and told me I had polyps and needed to have endoscopic surgery - I asked him the cost, he didn't know. I couldn't afford it at the time so put it off. About a year later I went back, he was no longer there so I saw another doctor. Told this doc the story and he flipped thru my chart, looked at me and said 'I'm sorry ma'am the CT scan showed your sinuses are clear. The only thing I can tell you is that doctor is no longer with us.' Docs and cops, half are good half are bad. Do your homework no matter what/who you see.

Sheila S (not a chiropractor) =)
______________________________
Copied Post:

Chiropractors aren't that expensive if you have to pay for it yourself. A Chiropractor will take x-rays and SHOW you where/if your spine is misaligned and perform adjustments. If this is the problem, and I suspect it is, you would probably have to be seen 2 or 3 times a week for a couple months, then once a week, then once every two weeks and so on until you only go when you feel you need to. Most of them will work with you on payments and fighting with WComp. (By the way, studies through Workers Comp. commission have shown that people with back injuries heal better and faster, as much 50-75%, than people who don't use Chiropractics). It won't help your heel (unless your back is causing you to walk improperly and keeping the area inflamed) but I feel it may well help the rest of your symptoms.

Think about the 'mechanics' of what happened to you - all your nerves run from/to your spinal cord, which runs up through your spine (and neck) to your brain. Your left heel jammed into the floorboard, which would have to jam that side of your hip up, and jam that side of all your vertebra. Imagine your back rather like a small aluminum tube with a wire through the middle (the wire representing your spinal cord)....if you smack the can against the floor, it crumples both to the right and left. What happens to the wire in the middle? It crumples in various directions also, and can be pinched by the sides of the tube where it is dented.

As we continue to walk and be active with an injury like this, because of gravity our bodies (backs) automatically adjust for this crooked spine to try to level ourselves. Our brains will always try to keep our heads level as our vision sees it....thus all the compensating is done from the neck down. (example: have you seen anyone walking that has had polio, for instance? their legs and hips may be all crooked but they will hold their upper body straight? you see where the compensation and stress are applied). The longer an injury is in place, the longer it takes to repair the area, thus numerous visits to a Chiropractor; I will try to explain the mechanics of why numerous visits are needed too...(um, I can't think of a good example but...) say you have a warped piece of trim board in your house or something, for instance, it has been warped so long that to straighten it you have to push it up real hard and nail it...later the nail pops out, so you do it again...and again, but eventually it keeps getting put up there and begins to straighten over time until at last the nail quits popping out and it becomes straight. (yeah I know, it'd be easier to buy a new board...told you I couldn't think of a good example!)

The hips and neck are prime injury areas, they do most of the compensating for misalignment. It's general physics - if your hips are cocked up on the left, your back, and neck in particular, will automatically tilt to 'straighten' yourself.

You can study on Chiropractics and the mechanics of it on the internet and at the library. I have a STRONG word of caution though, do some homework before seeing one!! It's the only way to be sure you are choosing a good one.

20 years ago, I went to every doctor imaginable, including an Orthopaedic back specialist, and was told there was nothing wrong with my back, I just 'needed to exercise'. Desperate and grabbing for straws, I tried a Chiropractor. That was 14 years ago...if it hadn't been for my Chiropractor, I don't think I'd be walking today. HOWEVER, I went to a quack the first time...just someone's office I saw as driving to work every day. It didn't take me long to realize he was a quack (since then, I've heard many stories about the guy). So I decided to go to the library and study everything I could get my hands on about Chiropractics. THEN, I went to several and actually interviewed them (they don't charge for this type of visit). Yes, I had the gall to do that. Everyone should do this. I simply told them I was looking for a Chiropractor and wanted to talk to them about their methods, philosophies, and my problems before selecting one. (They didn't have a problem with my doing that, either.)

There are many different methods of Chiropractics and the best doctor will use any and all of them to acheive results. Don't choose a doctor that uses only one method and pooh-poohs all the others. A good Chiropractor also believes Medical Doctors are necessary and valuable. Don't choose one that thinks no one should see an MD.

Re: to Ellen J and RC

R C on 12/01/02 at 22:17 (101572)

Of course there are good MDs and bad MDs. My point is that in some sense there is no good chiropractor. The vast majority of them are probably decent, honest, and well-meaning individuals. But most of what they do is not only unproved by science, it has been debunked completely. In fact, the core concept of chiropractic, the so-called 'subluxation' theory (though they shift the terminology around to escape scrutiny), is complete nonsense. It is a proven fact that for a small percentage of people, chiropractic manipulation can lead to relief for lower back pain, about as effective as rest, over-the-counter pain medication, heat, and massage. But there is no clinical evidence that manipulation of the neck has any therapeutic benefit, and its hazards are only now becoming evident.Any chiropractor that sells you the subluxation story (misaligned disks interefering with nerve function) is telling you an outright falsehood. How can you possibly trust anything else they have to say?

R C
Not an MD, but a research scientist.

Re: to Ellen J and RC

mahatmelissama on 12/01/02 at 23:36 (101576)

my mom sends some of her patients to chiropractors. She says she would rather they get some relief from a chiropractor than back surgery. (She is neurologist, private practice in San Jose).

I myself go see a chiropractor since what he does helps me to feel better. My legs and feet are slowly becoming more flexiable. He does PT on me with ultradsound, electrical simulation and his adjustments.

I can tell you from experience, everybody has a piece of the pie but nobody has the whole pie.

A little bit of this...a little bit of that...might add up to healing.

I myself have sworn off of pods for the time being since I have had experiences of the 5 minute visit too much for my liking. The latest one canceled my PT appts. That did it for me...I found a good chiropractor and get relief there.

Re: correction...I just checked with my mom

mahatmelissama on 12/01/02 at 23:39 (101578)

my mom doesn't send patients to chiropractors...she has just told me she has some who see chiropractors...and she would rather they see chiropractors then have back surgery. She too does not believe in the movement of bones/adjusting. I must be a beer short of a six pack...however...

I still though stand by my previous statement.

Re: This might be good reading...

R C on 12/02/02 at 10:51 (101593)

Let me refer any interested parties to the article

http://www.spinalrehab.com.au/Updates/Chiropracticpractise.htm

Titled 'Is Chiropractic Subluxation Theory a Threat To Public Health?', this article was written by Samuel Homola, who has practiced chiropractic for many decades, and is on a mission to reform the profession and help it earn a place in legitimate medicine.I find it quite credible, and significantly I find a lot of the reaction to it from within the profession to be shrill and illogical. As usual, you be the final judge.

Re: there's always good reading...seeing is believing tho

Sheila S on 12/02/02 at 19:55 (101620)

There are many good and bad docs of all kinds. My letter warns of the 'strange talking' chiros. My aluminum can example is the easiest to understand. And think about it, when you jamb your thumb, what do the MD's do? Pull it and pop it back in to place. Same for shoulder, leg, etc. Everyone can understand dislocating and jambing....but they can't understand compression, same as minor jambing. TRUE chiropractics understands compression and manipulates for the opposite. That's all. No science there - and 'subluxation' (regardless of current title) - that is pinched nerve, is quite real. I've had the impinged nerve and when it's nerve there is NO doubt about it. Most chiros will tell you the old chiros were nuts and quacks. Newer and more learned doctors do not follow the old philosophies. But the general idea of the quack stuff caused real research and knowledge and benefits. But there are many people who, having not experienced, don't believe.

As I said, anyone can post a page and articles about most anything and everyone with negative reactions will respond, making it all seem legitimately bad. But the old saying, one bad apple.... and there are lots of bunches with a bad apple. It WAS an MD that wrote the book 'The Arthritis Cure' about Glucosamine and Chondroitin and he bashed all the MD's for PURPOSELY not telling their clients about it (so the MD's could continue to rake in the dough).. hmmm. Bet he made alot selling the book. However, I take the stuff and it's a wonder drug! 6 weeks and arthritis, medically diagnosed, was gone. My friends orthopaedist saw their benefits and recommends it to all his patients now. Of course, most people don't know that VETS have been giving it to animals for ages and ages...

Mahatma says it best...another piece for those of us trying to put the whole pie together.

Thanks for you comments!!

Re: This might be good reading...

Sheila S on 12/02/02 at 20:06 (101623)

P.S. I did say to NOT choose a chiro that is against MD's. That is a first and huge clue that they are not a good chiro.

A note on the link you sent..... it's written by MD's. That's like a Kirby salesman digging up every broken or problematic Electrolux to show you that Electrolux is no good.

I had to do my own studies on the practice, and a thorough one it was. From there I made my own choice as to whether there was anything to the theory. Not based on what everyone else had to say.

It's rather like the Bible.....some read and believe just because. Some believe because the explanation (theory) is correct. Some read and won't believe because they don't grasp, or don't like, the explanation (theory).

We are a very diverse world. =)

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

wendyn on 12/02/02 at 22:20 (101627)

I don't 'belive' in chiropractors.

I have received manipulations on my spine and various other parts by chrios (thought I'd try it) and physiotherapists.

The relief I usually get is immediate and profound.

I don't care why.

Re: This might be good reading...

john h on 12/03/02 at 11:53 (101654)

R.C. that is a scary article. I never had heard that many Chiropractors do not believe in vaccinations! yipes! do they not see what is before their eyes that we have wiped out smallpox and polio in this country. I have seen a modern mainstream chiropractor and one of the old ones who could cure anything. I was never much on spinal adjustments and tried them many times with no help. I think some of the new mainstream guys recognize what they can help and what they cannot.

Re: This might be good reading...

Sheila S on 12/03/02 at 12:11 (101659)

Hey John, unfortunately their are still way too many Chiro's. out there that believe that sort of nonsense. A good chiro. doesn't. It's sad. When I was interviewing them, I talked to 2 of them who believed all that kind of nonsense - including they could even cure the common cold...they were also into organic foods only, yin/yang, megadoses of vitamins, mind over matter, and probably the whole 70's peace and tie-die thing. (Most of which do hold a nugget of truth.)

And this is a small city. One was probably in his late 70's, the other was probably about 48.

The fastest way to tell a quack Chiro. is ask them point blank how they feel about MD's. And ask them who their local MD is. If they don't have one, chances are they don't believe in them (even if they avoid the first question).

Good one's don't have banners out front or weekly specials!

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Suzanne D on 12/03/02 at 15:36 (101682)

Me, too, Wendy. Twenty-something years ago, while in college, I fell on the hard wooden arm of a chair right on my tail bone area. Within a couple of weeks, I could hardly get up from a sitting position without hanging onto something and really straining. It scared me. I went home to Daddy's chiropractor and after 2 or 3 visits, everything was normal. What a relief! Almost twenty years later, I had an 'almost fall' and the same type pain and stiffness returned. Some visits to a chiropractor took care of it again (although a few more were required than when it first happened years ago). I also went to my family doctor who asked which chiropractor I was seeing. I told him, and he said he was fine. He told me to stay away from certain others who did lots of needless tests. (I noticed they were also the ones who advertise a lot and send letters to people after they have had a wreck.) He said if it helped me, fine. It did.

That is my limited experience, but it has shown me that all chiropractors are not the same and that the three I have seen in my lifetime all helped me without any doubt. (The one I saw a few years ago retired, and I found out who he went to and chose him for my next visits.)

Suzanne :-)

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Carole C in NOLA on 12/03/02 at 17:52 (101696)

Ouch! it hurts just to read about your bad fall. I'm glad the chiropractor was able to take care of it.

Sounds painful!

Carole C

Re: This might be good reading...

pala on 12/04/02 at 11:27 (101771)

the bottom line rules in healthcare . there are exceptions. they are rare. md, chiropractor, pt, orthotist, pod, whatever. our pain their gain. with a few rare exceptions. i'm sick to death of the lot. there seem to be folks on this board who have found goood ones. there are some professionals that come here and help for free and that is really rare. my experience with my foot has been so bad that i have developed a full blown medical professional phobia. i can't even go to a dentist at this point.i have to find a new endocrinologist and am torn between crawling into the woods to die and going to see a doctor.

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Suzanne D on 12/05/02 at 07:48 (101827)

Thanks, Carole. It was one of those 'dumb' accidents. I was laughing so hard that I didn't pay careful attention and stumbled back and fell onto the arm of the chair. I can still remember how that hurt!

Suzanne :-)

Re: to Ellen J and RC

R C on 12/01/02 at 22:17 (101572)

Of course there are good MDs and bad MDs. My point is that in some sense there is no good chiropractor. The vast majority of them are probably decent, honest, and well-meaning individuals. But most of what they do is not only unproved by science, it has been debunked completely. In fact, the core concept of chiropractic, the so-called 'subluxation' theory (though they shift the terminology around to escape scrutiny), is complete nonsense. It is a proven fact that for a small percentage of people, chiropractic manipulation can lead to relief for lower back pain, about as effective as rest, over-the-counter pain medication, heat, and massage. But there is no clinical evidence that manipulation of the neck has any therapeutic benefit, and its hazards are only now becoming evident.Any chiropractor that sells you the subluxation story (misaligned disks interefering with nerve function) is telling you an outright falsehood. How can you possibly trust anything else they have to say?

R C
Not an MD, but a research scientist.

Re: to Ellen J and RC

mahatmelissama on 12/01/02 at 23:36 (101576)

my mom sends some of her patients to chiropractors. She says she would rather they get some relief from a chiropractor than back surgery. (She is neurologist, private practice in San Jose).

I myself go see a chiropractor since what he does helps me to feel better. My legs and feet are slowly becoming more flexiable. He does PT on me with ultradsound, electrical simulation and his adjustments.

I can tell you from experience, everybody has a piece of the pie but nobody has the whole pie.

A little bit of this...a little bit of that...might add up to healing.

I myself have sworn off of pods for the time being since I have had experiences of the 5 minute visit too much for my liking. The latest one canceled my PT appts. That did it for me...I found a good chiropractor and get relief there.

Re: correction...I just checked with my mom

mahatmelissama on 12/01/02 at 23:39 (101578)

my mom doesn't send patients to chiropractors...she has just told me she has some who see chiropractors...and she would rather they see chiropractors then have back surgery. She too does not believe in the movement of bones/adjusting. I must be a beer short of a six pack...however...

I still though stand by my previous statement.

Re: This might be good reading...

R C on 12/02/02 at 10:51 (101593)

Let me refer any interested parties to the article

http://www.spinalrehab.com.au/Updates/Chiropracticpractise.htm

Titled 'Is Chiropractic Subluxation Theory a Threat To Public Health?', this article was written by Samuel Homola, who has practiced chiropractic for many decades, and is on a mission to reform the profession and help it earn a place in legitimate medicine.I find it quite credible, and significantly I find a lot of the reaction to it from within the profession to be shrill and illogical. As usual, you be the final judge.

Re: there's always good reading...seeing is believing tho

Sheila S on 12/02/02 at 19:55 (101620)

There are many good and bad docs of all kinds. My letter warns of the 'strange talking' chiros. My aluminum can example is the easiest to understand. And think about it, when you jamb your thumb, what do the MD's do? Pull it and pop it back in to place. Same for shoulder, leg, etc. Everyone can understand dislocating and jambing....but they can't understand compression, same as minor jambing. TRUE chiropractics understands compression and manipulates for the opposite. That's all. No science there - and 'subluxation' (regardless of current title) - that is pinched nerve, is quite real. I've had the impinged nerve and when it's nerve there is NO doubt about it. Most chiros will tell you the old chiros were nuts and quacks. Newer and more learned doctors do not follow the old philosophies. But the general idea of the quack stuff caused real research and knowledge and benefits. But there are many people who, having not experienced, don't believe.

As I said, anyone can post a page and articles about most anything and everyone with negative reactions will respond, making it all seem legitimately bad. But the old saying, one bad apple.... and there are lots of bunches with a bad apple. It WAS an MD that wrote the book 'The Arthritis Cure' about Glucosamine and Chondroitin and he bashed all the MD's for PURPOSELY not telling their clients about it (so the MD's could continue to rake in the dough).. hmmm. Bet he made alot selling the book. However, I take the stuff and it's a wonder drug! 6 weeks and arthritis, medically diagnosed, was gone. My friends orthopaedist saw their benefits and recommends it to all his patients now. Of course, most people don't know that VETS have been giving it to animals for ages and ages...

Mahatma says it best...another piece for those of us trying to put the whole pie together.

Thanks for you comments!!

Re: This might be good reading...

Sheila S on 12/02/02 at 20:06 (101623)

P.S. I did say to NOT choose a chiro that is against MD's. That is a first and huge clue that they are not a good chiro.

A note on the link you sent..... it's written by MD's. That's like a Kirby salesman digging up every broken or problematic Electrolux to show you that Electrolux is no good.

I had to do my own studies on the practice, and a thorough one it was. From there I made my own choice as to whether there was anything to the theory. Not based on what everyone else had to say.

It's rather like the Bible.....some read and believe just because. Some believe because the explanation (theory) is correct. Some read and won't believe because they don't grasp, or don't like, the explanation (theory).

We are a very diverse world. =)

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

wendyn on 12/02/02 at 22:20 (101627)

I don't 'belive' in chiropractors.

I have received manipulations on my spine and various other parts by chrios (thought I'd try it) and physiotherapists.

The relief I usually get is immediate and profound.

I don't care why.

Re: This might be good reading...

john h on 12/03/02 at 11:53 (101654)

R.C. that is a scary article. I never had heard that many Chiropractors do not believe in vaccinations! yipes! do they not see what is before their eyes that we have wiped out smallpox and polio in this country. I have seen a modern mainstream chiropractor and one of the old ones who could cure anything. I was never much on spinal adjustments and tried them many times with no help. I think some of the new mainstream guys recognize what they can help and what they cannot.

Re: This might be good reading...

Sheila S on 12/03/02 at 12:11 (101659)

Hey John, unfortunately their are still way too many Chiro's. out there that believe that sort of nonsense. A good chiro. doesn't. It's sad. When I was interviewing them, I talked to 2 of them who believed all that kind of nonsense - including they could even cure the common cold...they were also into organic foods only, yin/yang, megadoses of vitamins, mind over matter, and probably the whole 70's peace and tie-die thing. (Most of which do hold a nugget of truth.)

And this is a small city. One was probably in his late 70's, the other was probably about 48.

The fastest way to tell a quack Chiro. is ask them point blank how they feel about MD's. And ask them who their local MD is. If they don't have one, chances are they don't believe in them (even if they avoid the first question).

Good one's don't have banners out front or weekly specials!

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Suzanne D on 12/03/02 at 15:36 (101682)

Me, too, Wendy. Twenty-something years ago, while in college, I fell on the hard wooden arm of a chair right on my tail bone area. Within a couple of weeks, I could hardly get up from a sitting position without hanging onto something and really straining. It scared me. I went home to Daddy's chiropractor and after 2 or 3 visits, everything was normal. What a relief! Almost twenty years later, I had an 'almost fall' and the same type pain and stiffness returned. Some visits to a chiropractor took care of it again (although a few more were required than when it first happened years ago). I also went to my family doctor who asked which chiropractor I was seeing. I told him, and he said he was fine. He told me to stay away from certain others who did lots of needless tests. (I noticed they were also the ones who advertise a lot and send letters to people after they have had a wreck.) He said if it helped me, fine. It did.

That is my limited experience, but it has shown me that all chiropractors are not the same and that the three I have seen in my lifetime all helped me without any doubt. (The one I saw a few years ago retired, and I found out who he went to and chose him for my next visits.)

Suzanne :-)

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Carole C in NOLA on 12/03/02 at 17:52 (101696)

Ouch! it hurts just to read about your bad fall. I'm glad the chiropractor was able to take care of it.

Sounds painful!

Carole C

Re: This might be good reading...

pala on 12/04/02 at 11:27 (101771)

the bottom line rules in healthcare . there are exceptions. they are rare. md, chiropractor, pt, orthotist, pod, whatever. our pain their gain. with a few rare exceptions. i'm sick to death of the lot. there seem to be folks on this board who have found goood ones. there are some professionals that come here and help for free and that is really rare. my experience with my foot has been so bad that i have developed a full blown medical professional phobia. i can't even go to a dentist at this point.i have to find a new endocrinologist and am torn between crawling into the woods to die and going to see a doctor.

Re: My 2 cents (0.65 American) or something like that

Suzanne D on 12/05/02 at 07:48 (101827)

Thanks, Carole. It was one of those 'dumb' accidents. I was laughing so hard that I didn't pay careful attention and stumbled back and fell onto the arm of the chair. I can still remember how that hurt!

Suzanne :-)