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DR. Z

Posted by Katie K on 1/17/03 at 03:54 (105668)

You wrote this in response to a post, and I have a question at the end:

Posted by Dr. Z on 1/05/03 at 16:58 View Thread
Take a look at the one year dornier FDA follow studies and then take a look the ossatron. This will help you make a decision. As you low energy at this time there are no FDA studies in the USA.

*** Pardon my ignorance, but I'm afraid I'm not finding the studies you mentioned. Would you be able to point me in the right direction? Thanks!
Katie

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/17/03 at 07:21 (105672)

Katie -

You can do a search on the board. I also found http://www.dornier.com which was helpful and Anne Stefurak at Ossatron who was EXTREMELY helpful -- her email is (email removed). Mar

Re: DR. Z

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/17/03 at 08:45 (105678)

I know that the dornier one year follow study is on this web site. Try the search engine for posts I am not sure of the ossatron where to find it. In summary the dornier had a one year follow up of 94% with no major complications. The ossatron was 81% with two plantar fascia tears. I hope that this is helpful

Re: DR. Z

georgette on 1/18/03 at 12:50 (105808)

are you saying that the dornier is a better option than the ossatron?

Re: DR. Z

Dr. Z on 1/18/03 at 13:35 (105812)

In my opinion it is a dornier machine. The one year follow studies prove this but some will still say that I say this because I have a dornier. Dornier is a much larger company that healthronics and has been around a very long time. Ther are more dornier machines in the world being used then healthronics.

Re: DR. Z

john h on 1/19/03 at 15:21 (105948)

I do not know that anyone can say with certainity that any one machine is better than another. I have had the EPOS and Big O. Dr. Gordon in Canada uses multiple machines and likes the Ossatron for a foot that has previous surgery but also use the Sonocur on a regular basis. Sort of like which is better a chocolate or strawberry milkshake? Different people might respond to different machines. Our old buddy Mohez had treatments with the Epos,Ossatron, and Sonocur and ended up cured.

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/19/03 at 15:57 (105950)

John,
You could cut off your foot and have the same result as Mohez. 100% cure rate with no ESWT machine.

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/19/03 at 18:02 (105963)

I don't think cutting off the foot is quite the same as being cured! Mar

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/19/03 at 18:12 (105964)

Mar,
Just a joke for John, but you've got to admit it does cure the P.F.:*)

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/20/03 at 05:24 (106007)

Pauline --

Yes it does! I'm just overly sensitive to this cutting off the foot thing. When I first started with the PF, that was funny. It isn;t funny anymore - it minimizes the pain of PF - like it can't be that bad if you don;t want to cut off the foot! Plus a friend had his leg amputated a year ago and I feel guilty complaining about my pain!! Ok - I'll shut up now that I've vented!! I know you were only joking -- ;-) Mar

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/20/03 at 09:35 (106016)

Sorry Mar, I guess anything can touch someone the wrong way. No offense intended. I personally have asked to have my foot cut off on three different occasions each time I had P.F. when it was at it's worst inflammation stage.

Fortunately my doctor wasn't in the mood on the days I made my request, but I think we all get to that point with this condition.

Re: DR. Z

Katie K on 1/20/03 at 13:55 (106043)

I guess this is a side effect of PF, eh? I have asked for the same thing several times, only I wasn't joking. I'm still not when I mention it, but having medical people in my family, I am met with a serious response. I still am not convinced I wouldn't like having it removed, but at the same time, I find myself reminded by family that I would regret ever doing it. You know it's bad when you wish for amputation! I wonder if anyone has ever had this done? I'd be curious.
Katie

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/20/03 at 15:55 (106049)

Katie,
I think you'll find depression often plays a very large role in our thinking during long term illnesses. We reach that point where we just want it over with and sometimes express extreme measures to our physicians.

Fortunately not many physicians would agree to amputate a foot for a case of P.F. I think if you did get one to agree with you, you'd probably been back on this board posting your disbelief and concern about his treatment suggestion.

Perhaps the seriousness you feel about amputation in reality is a bit of depression. We all tend to get some. I doubt very much you'd go ahead with such an operation even if it were offered and I think in your own mind you probably realize that, however, if you find your overwhelmed by many negative thoughts you really need to seek some help so you can feel better. It's great to know you have some medical support already in place in your family.

I hope your case of P.F. will begin to get better soon. Just keep working on it with all the tricks in Scott's book, make patience your friend and keep posting. You've got lots of friends and support on this site.

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/20/03 at 16:27 (106059)

Pauline -

I know there was no offense intended! I too have thought about amputation and inquired about it on occasion. Yes, it is part of depression and total frustration. Fortunately, I got myself out of that scene and have a support system. Here's the kicker -- if you amputate, you could wind up with phantom pain and still 'have the PF'!! Mar

Re: DR. Z

Katie K on 1/22/03 at 03:12 (106244)

Yeah, that's exactly what my family says. Sometimes, I keep feeling like that would be okay, compared to the real thing, although I know that's not true. I guess I feel like, since phantom pain isn't necessarily constant, it'd be worth it! (I know it's not, it's just what pops into my head). My PF is pretty much constant. I am fortunate enough to not have pain at night while sleeping... most of the time, but once I'm out and about... My foot doesn't seem to be very useful, except for reminding me that my pain receptors work very well, thank you. Ah, it's just so frustrating! I feel like there's not much more I can do, and THAT is extremely, extremely frustrating. I was supposed to be in New Zealand this month... I've been trying to go for five years, and two of those I've been plagued with PF, and thus, I am stuck here. It's amazing how PF affects one's entire life. It's more than a foot being affected, as I'm sure everyone else realizes. I don't know what's more frustrating: the pain in my foot, or how it affects things I do/don't do. I am unsure of where to go from here, as far as treatment. I have orthotics, I've done the awful cortisone shots, the ultrasound therapy, different shoes, stretching (do these actually work for some of you?), icing, elevation, etc., to no avail. And of course, the ESWT. Am I missing something, besides surgery? I've thought about acupuncture, which I NEVER thought I'd do. Has anyone tried this, or had success? Hmmm... maybe I will post this question on its own. Sorry to whine. I can't do anything else! Hahahaha!
KT

Re: Acupuncture

Julie on 1/22/03 at 04:31 (106245)

Katie

Acupuncture has been discussed occasionally. Some have found it helpful, some not. You can use the search facility to bring up past posts.

Acupuncture works by removing blockages along the energy channels (meridians). It has a pronounced effect on circulation, so properly applied, it could result in increased blood flow to the area of the injury. It can do no harm, and I would certainly be inclined to try it.

Things to consider. Are you sure your shoes are (a) the right shoes for your feet and (b) giving you sufficient support? Does your work require you to spend a lot of time on your feet? Are you perhaps overdoing in other ways - walking more than absolutely necessary (you speak of being 'out and about')? What I'm getting at is the possibility that you may - unknowingly and unintentionally of course - be re-injuring your PF. As you have been dealing with and treating PF for two years, I would suspect that could be the case. Perhaps you need to take a long, close look at every aspect of your treatment and your activities and see if you can't figure out what is holding up your healing.

You mention stretching and ask if it has helped anyone. There is stretching and stretching. My personal view is that weight-bearing stretching is contra-indicated for PF because it can easily exacerbate the condition. Yet the 'wall stretch' and the 'hanging-off-the-stair' stretch are still recommended. Are you doing these, or any other weight-bearing stretches? Sometimes people persevere with them even when they cause pain, not realising that they are doing themselves harm. Non-weight bearing exercise is better (you could have a look at the yoga foot exercises I've posted here - click on the word yoga - they've been helping people).

These are just some thoughts for you to ponder. I don't know if any of them applies.

Re: Acupuncture

Katie K on 1/27/03 at 13:19 (107005)

Thanks, Julie. Yeah, I read the acupuncture stuff after doing a search. Quite a few have had it done. My interpretation is that it's not terribly successful. It appeared that only a handful considered it so. But, you never know until you try!
In any case, I have gone through many pairs of shoes, and I am certain it's not the shoes. I tend to go for hiking boots with all the shanks and such, and I take my time when looking for the right pair; I don't want to worsen the situation with a pair of bad shoes! I am personally convinced that it's the work situation. It only started after starting this job, and has not stopped since. I am required to stand pretty much the entire time. Unfortunately, with the economy being the way it is, getting another job isn't an option, not to mention the fact that there is NO way to make anything similar money-wise (as of two weeks ago, OR had the highest unemplyoment rate in the country). Like may places, this is an area where minimum wage is the norm. I am on the lookout for something else however, and if it comes along, I don't have a problem jumping on it! I just need to get off the feet.

Re: Acupuncture

Julie on 1/28/03 at 02:22 (107098)

Katie, you've got your answer. There is absolutely no doubt that standing for long periods, especially if on hard surfaces, is a common cause of PF. And unfortunately it is THE big stumbling block in the way of recovery. Good shoes will help, taping will help, orthotics will help, NSAIDs will help, but only minimally. The only thing that will really help is to get off your feet and that means either looking actively for a different job or else moving heaven and earth to get your present employers to switch your duties to sit-down.

Think creatively about how you can change your standing job situation, because it's unquestionably standing (pun intentional) in the way of your healing.

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/17/03 at 07:21 (105672)

Katie -

You can do a search on the board. I also found http://www.dornier.com which was helpful and Anne Stefurak at Ossatron who was EXTREMELY helpful -- her email is (email removed). Mar

Re: DR. Z

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/17/03 at 08:45 (105678)

I know that the dornier one year follow study is on this web site. Try the search engine for posts I am not sure of the ossatron where to find it. In summary the dornier had a one year follow up of 94% with no major complications. The ossatron was 81% with two plantar fascia tears. I hope that this is helpful

Re: DR. Z

georgette on 1/18/03 at 12:50 (105808)

are you saying that the dornier is a better option than the ossatron?

Re: DR. Z

Dr. Z on 1/18/03 at 13:35 (105812)

In my opinion it is a dornier machine. The one year follow studies prove this but some will still say that I say this because I have a dornier. Dornier is a much larger company that healthronics and has been around a very long time. Ther are more dornier machines in the world being used then healthronics.

Re: DR. Z

john h on 1/19/03 at 15:21 (105948)

I do not know that anyone can say with certainity that any one machine is better than another. I have had the EPOS and Big O. Dr. Gordon in Canada uses multiple machines and likes the Ossatron for a foot that has previous surgery but also use the Sonocur on a regular basis. Sort of like which is better a chocolate or strawberry milkshake? Different people might respond to different machines. Our old buddy Mohez had treatments with the Epos,Ossatron, and Sonocur and ended up cured.

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/19/03 at 15:57 (105950)

John,
You could cut off your foot and have the same result as Mohez. 100% cure rate with no ESWT machine.

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/19/03 at 18:02 (105963)

I don't think cutting off the foot is quite the same as being cured! Mar

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/19/03 at 18:12 (105964)

Mar,
Just a joke for John, but you've got to admit it does cure the P.F.:*)

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/20/03 at 05:24 (106007)

Pauline --

Yes it does! I'm just overly sensitive to this cutting off the foot thing. When I first started with the PF, that was funny. It isn;t funny anymore - it minimizes the pain of PF - like it can't be that bad if you don;t want to cut off the foot! Plus a friend had his leg amputated a year ago and I feel guilty complaining about my pain!! Ok - I'll shut up now that I've vented!! I know you were only joking -- ;-) Mar

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/20/03 at 09:35 (106016)

Sorry Mar, I guess anything can touch someone the wrong way. No offense intended. I personally have asked to have my foot cut off on three different occasions each time I had P.F. when it was at it's worst inflammation stage.

Fortunately my doctor wasn't in the mood on the days I made my request, but I think we all get to that point with this condition.

Re: DR. Z

Katie K on 1/20/03 at 13:55 (106043)

I guess this is a side effect of PF, eh? I have asked for the same thing several times, only I wasn't joking. I'm still not when I mention it, but having medical people in my family, I am met with a serious response. I still am not convinced I wouldn't like having it removed, but at the same time, I find myself reminded by family that I would regret ever doing it. You know it's bad when you wish for amputation! I wonder if anyone has ever had this done? I'd be curious.
Katie

Re: DR. Z

Pauline on 1/20/03 at 15:55 (106049)

Katie,
I think you'll find depression often plays a very large role in our thinking during long term illnesses. We reach that point where we just want it over with and sometimes express extreme measures to our physicians.

Fortunately not many physicians would agree to amputate a foot for a case of P.F. I think if you did get one to agree with you, you'd probably been back on this board posting your disbelief and concern about his treatment suggestion.

Perhaps the seriousness you feel about amputation in reality is a bit of depression. We all tend to get some. I doubt very much you'd go ahead with such an operation even if it were offered and I think in your own mind you probably realize that, however, if you find your overwhelmed by many negative thoughts you really need to seek some help so you can feel better. It's great to know you have some medical support already in place in your family.

I hope your case of P.F. will begin to get better soon. Just keep working on it with all the tricks in Scott's book, make patience your friend and keep posting. You've got lots of friends and support on this site.

Re: DR. Z

Mar on 1/20/03 at 16:27 (106059)

Pauline -

I know there was no offense intended! I too have thought about amputation and inquired about it on occasion. Yes, it is part of depression and total frustration. Fortunately, I got myself out of that scene and have a support system. Here's the kicker -- if you amputate, you could wind up with phantom pain and still 'have the PF'!! Mar

Re: DR. Z

Katie K on 1/22/03 at 03:12 (106244)

Yeah, that's exactly what my family says. Sometimes, I keep feeling like that would be okay, compared to the real thing, although I know that's not true. I guess I feel like, since phantom pain isn't necessarily constant, it'd be worth it! (I know it's not, it's just what pops into my head). My PF is pretty much constant. I am fortunate enough to not have pain at night while sleeping... most of the time, but once I'm out and about... My foot doesn't seem to be very useful, except for reminding me that my pain receptors work very well, thank you. Ah, it's just so frustrating! I feel like there's not much more I can do, and THAT is extremely, extremely frustrating. I was supposed to be in New Zealand this month... I've been trying to go for five years, and two of those I've been plagued with PF, and thus, I am stuck here. It's amazing how PF affects one's entire life. It's more than a foot being affected, as I'm sure everyone else realizes. I don't know what's more frustrating: the pain in my foot, or how it affects things I do/don't do. I am unsure of where to go from here, as far as treatment. I have orthotics, I've done the awful cortisone shots, the ultrasound therapy, different shoes, stretching (do these actually work for some of you?), icing, elevation, etc., to no avail. And of course, the ESWT. Am I missing something, besides surgery? I've thought about acupuncture, which I NEVER thought I'd do. Has anyone tried this, or had success? Hmmm... maybe I will post this question on its own. Sorry to whine. I can't do anything else! Hahahaha!
KT

Re: Acupuncture

Julie on 1/22/03 at 04:31 (106245)

Katie

Acupuncture has been discussed occasionally. Some have found it helpful, some not. You can use the search facility to bring up past posts.

Acupuncture works by removing blockages along the energy channels (meridians). It has a pronounced effect on circulation, so properly applied, it could result in increased blood flow to the area of the injury. It can do no harm, and I would certainly be inclined to try it.

Things to consider. Are you sure your shoes are (a) the right shoes for your feet and (b) giving you sufficient support? Does your work require you to spend a lot of time on your feet? Are you perhaps overdoing in other ways - walking more than absolutely necessary (you speak of being 'out and about')? What I'm getting at is the possibility that you may - unknowingly and unintentionally of course - be re-injuring your PF. As you have been dealing with and treating PF for two years, I would suspect that could be the case. Perhaps you need to take a long, close look at every aspect of your treatment and your activities and see if you can't figure out what is holding up your healing.

You mention stretching and ask if it has helped anyone. There is stretching and stretching. My personal view is that weight-bearing stretching is contra-indicated for PF because it can easily exacerbate the condition. Yet the 'wall stretch' and the 'hanging-off-the-stair' stretch are still recommended. Are you doing these, or any other weight-bearing stretches? Sometimes people persevere with them even when they cause pain, not realising that they are doing themselves harm. Non-weight bearing exercise is better (you could have a look at the yoga foot exercises I've posted here - click on the word yoga - they've been helping people).

These are just some thoughts for you to ponder. I don't know if any of them applies.

Re: Acupuncture

Katie K on 1/27/03 at 13:19 (107005)

Thanks, Julie. Yeah, I read the acupuncture stuff after doing a search. Quite a few have had it done. My interpretation is that it's not terribly successful. It appeared that only a handful considered it so. But, you never know until you try!
In any case, I have gone through many pairs of shoes, and I am certain it's not the shoes. I tend to go for hiking boots with all the shanks and such, and I take my time when looking for the right pair; I don't want to worsen the situation with a pair of bad shoes! I am personally convinced that it's the work situation. It only started after starting this job, and has not stopped since. I am required to stand pretty much the entire time. Unfortunately, with the economy being the way it is, getting another job isn't an option, not to mention the fact that there is NO way to make anything similar money-wise (as of two weeks ago, OR had the highest unemplyoment rate in the country). Like may places, this is an area where minimum wage is the norm. I am on the lookout for something else however, and if it comes along, I don't have a problem jumping on it! I just need to get off the feet.

Re: Acupuncture

Julie on 1/28/03 at 02:22 (107098)

Katie, you've got your answer. There is absolutely no doubt that standing for long periods, especially if on hard surfaces, is a common cause of PF. And unfortunately it is THE big stumbling block in the way of recovery. Good shoes will help, taping will help, orthotics will help, NSAIDs will help, but only minimally. The only thing that will really help is to get off your feet and that means either looking actively for a different job or else moving heaven and earth to get your present employers to switch your duties to sit-down.

Think creatively about how you can change your standing job situation, because it's unquestionably standing (pun intentional) in the way of your healing.