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Final post

Posted by Orson on 2/24/03 at 22:35 (110652)

This will be my last post to this board, because this is a very nasty place. Have I been 'driven away' or am I choosing to leave? I guess it's a question of semantics. When you open the door to a bus station restroom and are overwhelmed by the stench and walk out, are you just leaving or have you been driven away?

I have nothing to say about the political issues discussed on this board. I told Ed, and this message is mostly directed at you, Ed, what my political leanings are twice but you don't seem to be able to comprehend that I am a Libertarian, largely conservative on issues, fiscally quite conservative, have no problem with guns, and no problem going after Saddam. And on the other hot political issues of the day, I come down on the side of the government not meddling in the private lives of its citizens, which is the very heart of conservatism.

But this is not about politics, it is about the unfair and often cruel way you 'debate.'

Your posts are strewn with half-truths and generalizations, and when those low tactics don't work, you come back with comments questioning the 'real' motives of the people who post opinions you don't agree with. These are the tactics of a bully.

When I talk with conservatives about issues on which we disagree, I am often pleasantly surprised how, when we respectfully allow each to express opinions in depth and truly examine the issues and possible solutions instead of trying to win the discussion, we usually end up enlarging our perception of issues and seeing that we are not really so far apart in our beliefs.

So you see, I'm not bashing conservatives, I'm bashing bullies.

I will do something you seem incapable of doing, which is provide documentation about my position instead of a relentlessly underhanded and content-neutral (as far as supporting evidence) reply.

But before I do that and leave this cyber cesspool for good, I must say that the way you have conducted yourself here would be petty but not uncommon if you were the average Joe or Jane typing your opinions to a community of equals. But you are supposed to be a healer here. Next to religious leaders, the work of healers is probably the most important work on the planet. They have the ability and the opportunity to assuage pain, to lessen the suffering in the world. But what do you do? Well, let's see the documentation: On 2/23/03, you told a mostly house-bound woman who spends her days in a wheelchair that she should wash her mouth out with soap. That comment is absolutely indefensible. Especially since, in an earlier posting, you claimed and let me get this noble statement exactly right that you would 'drive to the end of the earth to help someone in her condition.' I was physically nauseated when I read that statement. I could literally smell the hypocracy through my computer screen.

There have been many other similarly hurtful statemetns to the few people here who do not share your political beliefs, but that was the most egregious instance of your conduct in this forum that came readily to mind, and I have no interest in taking any more time over behavior that is unquestionably wrong. Besides, others on this board have pointed to your odious behavior also, so the point I make is no secret.

In my opinion, the atmosphere you have created here is one of the most unsafe I have run across online, and when you consider that this board is supposed to be to help people heal, the cruelty of your posts is even more stunning. Perhaps you should wash your mouth out with soap.

So that's what I have to say. To the nice people here, across the political spectrum, I hope this board will return to what was once a nurturing and healing environment. To those of you who like taking potshots at people who spend their days painfully trying to relearn how to walk, your actions are utterly despicable.

So there you go. I'm outta here. The board is yours, Ed. You can rant and rave and make hurtful comments to those unfortunate enough to need this board for their recovery and for human contact. And after you have driven those who dare disagree with you away you can do all this in a forum in which there is absolutely no one to call you on your behavior. That is really the only kind of forum in which your conduct will go unchallenged.

The floor is yours.....doctor.

Re: Final post

john h on 2/25/03 at 09:24 (110680)

Good day Orson I hope you find happiness where ever you go. You are always welcome here and probably the same people will still be here both conservatives, liberals, an some who could care less because their feet hurt.

Re: Final post

D.Thomas on 2/25/03 at 09:57 (110683)

Actually,

All I want to say is that I am very grateful to Dr. Ed. He gets absolutely nothing in answering foot questions on this board, except to help others. I would just like to state that he has answered every question I have had and was willing to listen to everything I have questioned about my feet. He has helped me more than any doctor I have seen to date, and he has received abosolutely no money for it. He simply does it because he wants to help people as much as possible.

You might not agree with his political beliefs or how he expresses them, but please don't question his motovation for helping people. I personally could care less what his political beliefs are if he can help me with my feet.

Sorry, but to question his character on helping people with feet problems is absolutely crazy given his past record on this board.

Re: Thank you, D - you said what I was thinking

Sharon W on 2/25/03 at 10:26 (110688)

That was very well said, D. Dr. Ed has received a lot of criticism these past few days, and while I have NO wish to re-light all those smoking embers of resentment, I do want to say how much I appreciate Dr. Ed and to acknowledge how much he has done to help people on these boards.

Sharon
.

Re: Final post

john h on 2/25/03 at 11:29 (110701)

Since I have been referred to as sort of a clone or under the spell of Dr. Ed I got to like him.

Re: Final post

nancy on 2/25/03 at 12:12 (110705)

i certainly do agree with you on that, d thomas. i have always been a fan of ed's numerous contributions to people on the board regarding foot problems and have spoken out in defense of his motivations for his contributions many times -- as with the other podiatrists who participate. i think they are all very generous.

it also doesn't bother me in the least that he has political beliefs different from mine, as do most of the good people here. that's life.

i do differ with you in that i do care how he has treated people here on the social board regarding those political differences. i suppose you could say i am biased, in that i was one recipient of that treatment, so you can take how i feel about it with a grain of salt.

there was nastiness from both 'sides,' no question about it. i did my best to be straightforward and not become offensive, and for the most part (not completely) i think i didn't fail at that. i no doubt did become *de*fensive, though, and that was a direct result of having my main worldview almost totally ignored and small parts of it purposely misinterpreted, held up to ridicule, and belittled, mostly by ed. he doesn't seem to hesitate to twist and manipulate people's words and intentions when they don't agree with his own, when it comes to politics. i think tactics *do* matter, and i can't find any excuse to purposely hurt and misrepresent people with them.

of course, i think the problems we face today go way beyond politics.

it was a major disappointment, since i'd thought highly of him before. to be honest, i felt hacked up, and with next to no open support while it was happening. that was my own chance to take; but it was a very alienating experience.

also, while i agree that his contributions regarding foot problems have been invaluable, i don't necessarily think that his are more important than those of some other people here. i learned here not only from him but from many others, including people who have a lot of wisdom when it comes to dealing with pain both physical *and* psychological -- and the two usually do end up intertwined.

nancy
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Re: Final post

Dr. Z on 2/25/03 at 12:23 (110707)

Dam
I missed this one. How come I didn't get to be the one who everyone is after. John H a clone. Wow

Re: Final post

Orson on 2/25/03 at 15:06 (110720)

hi nancy. i certainly lost my temper. i believe i would like to apologize to you for that. you spoke up for me when i was under mobbing attack and i was just too angry to be a calm or effective speaker upper for you when it was your turn to be mobbed.

'm sure you would use more judicius words for what occurred but this is the best i can do. i certainly have no interest in fanning more flames. but i just wanted to say that you have stood up , mostly alone, to unwarrented bullying here and it sickens me, because you are truly a lovely person.

i don't think i will be back here. my neighbor orson has sat me down with a long, caring talk about only being in places that are kind and caring. for me to heal or at least not get any more ill, i have to agree with him. i wanted to say to the others here thank you so much , those who have been caring to me. this board was, until recently, very important to me.

Re: Final post

pala on 2/25/03 at 15:18 (110724)

that was me, not orson. sorry for the confusion. he uses my mac.

Re: Final post

Bob R on 2/25/03 at 16:14 (110731)

Don't let the door hit you in the butt.

Re: Pala...

Suzanne D on 2/25/03 at 16:49 (110737)

I really hope you'll be back, Paula. And I'm sorry for everyone who has been hurt in the past days. We may not agree on politics or other issues, but we agree on the importance of treating one another with kindness and respect. Nothing is ever really gained when those attributes are absent, in my opinion.

When I see flowers begin to bloom this spring, I will hope that down in Atlanta, you have found a way to garden from your wheelchair! I hope that you may find healing and peace, Paula.

Suzanne :-)

Re: Final post, under that name!

BrianG on 2/25/03 at 16:56 (110739)

Goodbye Orson, as long as your leaving, why don't you tell us who you really are? Oh yah, that would defeat the purpose, as you could not keep posting under your regular name. You said that the board was very important to you, but it's really too bad you didn't have one thing to say about feet, or heels!!!

See ya around
BrianG

Re: Final post, under that name!

nancy on 2/25/03 at 17:47 (110746)

i'll never know how a person can enjoy being cruel.

for the good of all, i'm glad most people here are not.

nancy
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Re: Final post

BGCPed on 2/25/03 at 19:25 (110761)

Well I cant let this go without a few observations. Dr ED does help many people. He has answered many posts with FACTS and LOGIC, you may not agree but his posts, in my opinion are more logic and fact based than yours Mr/Mrs Orson. JUst because you preface your claims first with how righteous and correct you are, and then claim how 'neutral' you are BUT....tells me you have an agenda. Having an agenda is fine, everybody does, but making the claims you make first about being this or that then making points that are both very liberal and hipocritical is lame.

Dr Ed didnt ruin this place or make it anything. He did however make posts that were thought provoking and intelligent, just because your politics dont agree doesnt mean you should slam him so bad on a personal level. Somebody else on here made comments saying how normal and plain Doctors are, not special so to speak. He has a right to state his opinions aside from being a Dr he should be aforded the same freedom as any other on here.

After reading his posts both medical and political it is obvious the man has done his homework. I am sure this will create more mean labels for me but it is a very classic flaw that many liberals are guilty of. They demand tolerance, acceptance and diversity of opinions when they agree with the person. Dont agree and it is easy to make false claims, call names like mean spirited, hate speech etc.

As I said in an earlier post. People claiming to leave or be chased off are really little kids stomping feet and crying to get their way. I would further submit that you being a casual observer, and long time lurker, supposedly,that he has contributed more to this board in 1 day than you have your entire time here (under the name Orson anyway)

I for one sense some underlying issues regarding your opinion of Dr Ed. I also can state I am a staunch conservative and Libertarian. I fail to see one spec of Libertarian as far as your views other than stating you are Libertarian. Perhaps you should bone up on your Ayn Rand writings?

Dr Ed doesnt need to be defended but I think a lame slap hit and run like this deserves to be answered.
p.s. go to http://www.newsmax.com and look up the articles on Martin Sheen, Cheryl Crow and Michael Moore if you want a good laugh for hipocrisys sake.

Re: Final post

Michelle L on 2/26/03 at 07:50 (110804)

I am a new visitor to this site and was taken aback by both the comments of BGCped and Dr. Ed. How can you offer such criticism to the many people on this site who suffer on a daily basis. Being that both of you are in the medical profession I would expect more sympathy for those of us who see every waking morn as a struggle. If either of you faced the daily battles that I and many on this site face, you would be forced to rethink your political and worldly views to be more accepting of others ideas. I suffer from both plantar facitis and fibro myalgia-pardon the spelling the discomfort that these diseases inflict me with often make remembering simple tasks more difficult. These medical issues have made me rethink my views on politics. I believe that we do need to embrace all our sisters throughout the world and this should start right here at home with those who know that a site like this is the only place they can come for some comfort. If BGCPed and Dr Ed were to feel this pain, they would likely feel more guilty about coming down on another person on this site since they would understand the sensitivity that is learned from pain. Sensitivity is virtue and although I do not wish pain on anyone, maybe the two of you could benefit from living just one day in my shoes. BGCPed, I have read several of your other posts and am appalled at how you talk to others. For your information, though you may think it is a joke, herbal tea is one of the few things that has made it possible for me to enjoy my days since having these ailments inflicted upon me. Also, I would like to send you a BIG cyberhug and and hope that it would touch you in such a way that you would realize that acceptance and tolerance for those with differing views than yours does not make them wrong. I wish it were this easy to solve the problems we are facing as a country today. I did check out the site you reccommended that talked about Martin Sheen and other celebrities who do not support war. I think it is awful that the article offers out Mr. Sheens phone and email address, I think he should be allowed his privacy and commended for being so brave and standing up for what he believes. I for one will support his cause and, although I have very little money since my ailments prevent me from working, I intend to tithe a percantage of the money the state and federal governments give me and my children to support Mr. Sheens cause. I know this will anger you BGCPed, however, when you feel angry take a moment and think about poor Orson and how she can no longer participate in this site because of the anger you have offered her. Then you should think about the anger that people like you are offering to the poor suffering, innocent souls in Iraq and then decide if you and your bully political friends really want to do this to the rest of the world.

Re: Final post

BrianG on 2/26/03 at 08:12 (110806)

Interesting, now we have two people who have come here to debate poltics, but neither one has mentioned even one thing about feet! Michelle did memtion PF, but had no idea of how to spell it.

Scott, could you check this person, and Orson's ISP, to see if they have ever posted here, under a different user name.

Thanks
BrianG

Re: Final post

BGCPed on 2/26/03 at 08:36 (110815)

I AM SPEECHLESS

Re: Pala...

john h on 2/26/03 at 09:11 (110820)

People can differ with me greatly and call me names but this does not really 'hurt' me. I do not expect everyone or even most to agree with me.
I am comfotable with myself and beliefs. I do change over time on certain issues. I have voted for Ike,Kennedy,Bush,Bush and would have voted for Truman and Roosevelt had I been old enough. I grew up in the south at a time when there was no such thing as a Republican. Roosevelt was almost a diety. How time changes attitudes and perspectives, I think John Kennedy would almost be considered a Conservative today. A big thing that has occured in the last decade is that the last of the WWII generation who serve in Congress and have been President are retiring or have died. These people brought a very different value system to our government be they Democrat or Republican. It will probably take 50 years or more for Historians to look back and see the major impact of these ever so gradual changes in government and perhaps even in our culture.

Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 10:31 (110829)

scott, don't know what an isp is but if it is not kosher to let orson share my computer i won't let anyone else post from here. but if this is the latest form of nastiness here, then could you also see if larson and anyone else are sharing a computer?

actually i have stopped reading most posts from the people who are especially mean, but saw this one, so i'm really not sure what the latest nastiness is about. however, knowing the recent past here i am pretty sure it is not very nice. i am not aware of the fact that another person should not post from my computer. if it is against the rules then it won't happen again, from me.

Re: Final post

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 10:32 (110830)

BG:

Thank you BG -- I saw that same article and was tempted to post it here.
I am thankful to those who have supported my opinion, as it pertains to the right to debate, as opposed to political stands. I have debated only with the facts which is what should happen on the forum, only to have to respond to personal attacks. Perhaps I over-reacted to some of the personal attacks but I feel that those such as Orson who have made that type of tactic the cornerstone of their 'arguments' should not be doing so in the first place.
Ed

Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 10:38 (110831)

michelle, i am the one who is in the wheelchair. i am the one who was , and is, continaully mobbed for being a liberal. orson shares my computer, posted here a few times, and i forgot to change the name in the name box. sorry about the confusion. the ritght wingesr have now jumped all over that . hopefuly, when scott tells us where these different post names are coming from, this will all be cleard up. thank you for your intelligent post.

Re: Final post

nancy s. on 2/26/03 at 11:02 (110837)

i don't think anyone here has debated only with the facts. i would find that claim incredible, whether it come from a supposed liberal, conservative, or martian.

perhaps a truly objective party could look these terms up and provide a real and honest definition of 'fact' and of 'opinion.' a high opinion of one's own opinion does not make it a fact. statistics, often obtained on both sides from biased sources, usually do not qualify as facts; they are momentary and changeable and, again, usually biased, or at least obtained on inadequate samples or one of the many other known faulty foundations of 'scientific' study.

i am aware of many facts. but i do not know all of them, not by a long shot, and i'm still amazed that anyone would claim otherwise for himself or see himself as so completely objective that he would claim to have debated with only the facts here over the past week or two.

nancy
.

Re: Final post

BGCPed on 2/26/03 at 11:08 (110841)

PALA I would not worry so much about those of differing opinions. I personally have no animosity for you or any others on here. If I was like that I wouldnt be in a business like this. I mrsn this in a nice way that you should try not to get so riled up. I saw a congressman on tv last night defending a terrorist that supported him. When the newsperson played a tape of the guy, Sam Alerion sp? the professor from Florida, stating to a group kill Israel, down with Israel and so on. The congressman David Bonior said 'no comment' and walked away.

Now that guy made me want to throw my shoe at the TV for his hipocrisy. Again I dont harbor any ill will to any on here. EVERYBODY is allowed their opinion.(except spammers, I loath spammers)

Again try to relax and not take it as a personal attack.

Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 11:38 (110847)

i assure you, i am not in the least bit riled up. i lost my temper during a time that other liberals were being unfairly mobbed and attacked. i have never lost my temper at the mobbing and attacking of me. even when i was taunted for being in a wheelchair, sick and very disabled. altho i must say, those comments were a particularly nice touch.

Re: Final post

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 14:44 (110875)

Nancy:

'Facts' can always be contested. Let me rephrase this as the forum should be used to debate the circumstances of a situation or issue but not involve attacks on individuals and personalities.
Ed

Re: Michelle

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 15:07 (110877)

Michelle:
BG and I treat people in pain every day and sympathatize with their suffering. Being in sympathy with an individual does not mean that we must be in agreement with their views -- to do so is often termed 'pandering' which is not a genuine expression of sympathy nor support.
Ed

Re: Final post

BrianG on 2/26/03 at 15:43 (110887)

Hi Pala,

Why would you think my post was nasty? I'm just trying to put two and two together. I admit I did not read all the political posts. I am wondering though, if you ever introduced Orson, and let everyone know that she was using your computer? If not, some people might 'assume' it was the same person, posting under two different names, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

Thanks
BrianG

Re: Final post

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 16:41 (110901)

Nancy:
I have done no 'twisting and manipulation of peoples' words' here. Why do you insist on taking all debate here to a personal level? Time and time again, I have asked that we discuss issues, not personalies. Others are okay with that but not you. Don't expect warm fuzzies from those who disagree with you when you incessantly resort to personal attacks.
Ed

Re: Final post

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 17:03 (110902)

Pala:

Try to separate ideas discussed here from who you are. Criticizing one's expressed views is not the same as criticizing the person. I don't even like the term 'criticizing' but rather ther term debate or discussion as the board exists as a forum to discuss issues and ideas. Again, no one here knows enough about any other poster to level personal criticisms, let alone try to assume what their intent was on a post. If we can keep it at that level, then no one should take such discussions personally.

Labels such as 'conservative' or 'liberal' can be problematic too since none of us are truly representatives of a set of philosophies. Although, we can state that we believe in certain philosophies or a particular philosophy best represents our belief system. We can then critique the philosophy or belief system itself, without crticizing the person.
Ed
Ed

Re: Final post

nancy s. on 2/26/03 at 17:58 (110911)

i disagree with you, ed, on every sentence in your post to me here, and i know a number of people who would take exception to your speaking for them by saying 'others are okay with [my -- ed's -- view] but not you.' don't you think that's a bit presumptuous?

since we continue to disagree about a number of aspects of the debate, i see no point in going on with it, so the floor is yours to do with as you like. i wish a lot of luck to the next person who disagrees with you. it's not a pretty, nor a 'factual,' experience.

nancy
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Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 18:02 (110912)

nancy, i liked ' a high opinion of one's own opinion does not make it a fact ' . i am currently reading a bio of virginia wolfe and i think she and the bloomsbury group would have liked it as well. you express yourself quite nicely. you majored in english, am i right. ?

Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 18:06 (110913)

nancy, i have come to the exact same conclusion as you. i will also no longer go on with it. hopefully those of us who care to can get back to our discussions prior to this last few weeks. i believe the only way that can be done is to ignore the not pretty experiences here.

Re: Final post

nancy s. on 2/26/03 at 18:37 (110914)

that would be wise, paula. i will be sticking to it, and i hope you will too. i also hope these things for you: keep reading virginia woolf! and i truly wish you great healing, both physically and spiritually.

nancy
.

Re: Final post

pala on 2/26/03 at 18:41 (110916)

thanks nancy. i will try to stick to it. and i will keep reading. woolfe and next, i have lytton strachey lined up for a good read. he was the bloomsbury freind the movie 'carrington' was about. but you probably know that.

Re: Final post

BGCPed on 2/26/03 at 21:04 (110931)

Dr. Ed, did you read the national article about the human shields from the US and England that are in Iraq? I noted loads of false logic and hipocrisy. I dont remember the Author but it is national today, prob in all big papers. It said standard Iraq media visa is approved for western journalistin several weeks. The shields are given one in 48 hours to on the spot.

They are given free room and board and shacks to sleep in near facilities like water and power plants ( labeled such by Iraq) The thought is that Allies wont bomb those facilities. Saddam is using these people like tissue paper. It is also a violation of warfare.

I would ask, where were these caring people when:

Saddam gassed thousands of Kurds
Shot, killed,raped many citizens
promoted and bankrolled exported terrorism
video taped murders of some of his own staff
when Daniel Pearl had his throat sliced thru his spine
iraqis tongues were cut out for speaking out
let iraqis starve while he lives like a greedy pig
promoted a democracy that only has his name on the ballot
funding life insurance policies for terrorist suicide missions
forced many iraqi soldiers to fight and die or be killed by his regime
uses hospitals has a shield
treats women worse than a commodity
speaks about killing westerners and peppers it with 'god willing'
wears stupid suits and hats
violates many treaties in last 11 years and previous
that russian fur hat is really stupid when it is 100 degrees

In closing I would say that as hated as he is, he is more threatened by his own insiders killing him than westerners. If anyone has read about how paranoid and tight his security is you would know. The guy doesnt even sleep in the same place 2 days in a row. That alone should tell you how hated and nasty he is. I also think that if the media is honest, after he gets dispatched to hell, the majority of Iraqis will celebrate like the people did on Wizard of Oz after the witch got melted.

Bless all of the brave people that will soon clean up the mess their. I also hope that Saddam will be returned to the bowels of satan where he was spawn from.

p.s. how many of the human shields will stay to live and work amongst the Iraqis after it is over? anyone want to guess?

Re: Final post

BGCPed on 2/26/03 at 21:21 (110933)

Granted opinions can be bolstered by fact or the speakers dilusion. A crazy person can stae they are General Patton and truly believe it as fact. I guess one way to define 'fact' would be to do reserach nad present it i.e. In late 70s France was building a reactor for nukes in Iraq. Further, the said reactor was bombed by an Israli attack to secure their future safety. This is fact.

One view would state that they were mean and over reacting when they bombed it. Another view would be that they dealt with an open and obvious threat, that in hindsight was very effective for their safety. The only thing that kept him from using nukes is that he didnt have them.

Re: Final post

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/26/03 at 23:50 (110941)

BG:

The world will definitely be a better place when he is gone. I don't see how one can negotiate with him. World leaders need to show the courage to deal with tyrants as their is little virtue in trying to pacify such an individual.
Ed

Re: Final post

john h on 2/27/03 at 09:02 (110969)

If you think our debates are heated on this board take a look at the debates in the English House of Commons or House of Lords. We are pussy cats here. You have to toughen up when it comes to politics both here and in England. We have had fist fights and even duels in our Governments history. It would be nice to drop the subject and pretend Iraq and possible war does not exist but the reality of situation is there is possible war. Politics and religion always bring on heated deabates. At least we can debate. In many countries we might have our tounges cut off for what we espouse. What ever will be will be regardless of our little band of posters.

Re: Final post

Larson on 2/27/03 at 22:26 (111102)

Brian:
Your post was 'nasty' because you did not support Pala or Paula or Orson or whatever that entity wishes to be called. Say no more, lest you recieve a barrage of posts from the usual bunch telling you how mean spirited you are and how unfair you are to have a differing opinion.
Remember: two legs bad, four legs good
Larson