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To all

Posted by Julie on 2/28/03 at 04:52 (111123)

After I wrote my post to Ed yesterday, I intended not to read or post here again. However, clarification of some of the things that have been said in response to my post is needed.

Ed, my comments were not made in defense of Nancy S. Nancy has been my dear friend for almost three years, and I know her well enough to know that she is perfectly capable of looking after herself.

I've spoken to you as I have, three times over the last two weeks - because I've been dismayed by the way you have conducted yourself in debate and because I've been revolted by your behaviour towards people. You are intelligent and articulate, so the mud that you sling is subtle mud, but quite as dirty as any other mud. I hoped that if I - a person you respected and thought 'wise' and clear-headed - told you what I thought, you would pause and look at yourself. I also hoped that you would do your part to end the discussion and allow the board to heal. I still hope you will do both.

I have no more to say on that score.

Kathy, bless you for what you say, dear - I'm fond of you too! - but no-one here has hurt me. Some posters' feelings have indeed been badly hurt, and the attackers continue to protest that it is they who have been attacked, but I haven't felt any pain myself, only for others.

And Nancy N, bless you too, and I agree with your riposte to BG. Of course people can be chased off the board, and some have been - probably more than those we know of. But you mentioned my name, so I'd like to make clear that I don't feel I've been chased. I am leaving heelspurs because I've finally decided that an internet forum is not a place where reasoned discussion of major political issues can take place. And yet they will arise, and cause misery. It isn't worth it. I think this is probably true of all internet forums, not just this one. I could, but won't, elaborate on why I've come to this conclusion: the way the discussion has gone speaks for itself.

Also, I know myself well enough to know that I can't trust myself not to get involved when such issues arise (and this one, Iraq, will surely continue to arise). But simply, I don't want to be involved any more: I have other more important things to do.

I really hope the board will recover from this disaster - that is not too strong a word. As I think I said yesterday, I acknowledge my share of the responsibility for it. I am sorry for it, and I hope no-one with whom I've beome friendly here will hold it against me. Those of you who have my email address are very welcome to keep in touch: I'll be glad to hear from you.

All the best


Re: To all

BGCPed on 2/28/03 at 07:18 (111129)

Well I for oneam not happy you are leaving. Believe it or not. I also think it is sad that you feel political discussion 'cant' happen in forums like this. I dont know if you watch Hannity & Colmes on Fox. There are 2 polar opposites politics wise yet it is one of the most popular shoes of its kind. They go at it but they are buddies.

I truely am sorry you feel they need to leave and I hope you reconsider. If you do thats your choice. But I would really hope you dont. I am very Conservative on many issues but I dont feel any animosity towards you or anyone else on here. I can have different opinions from that perspective. Dr Ed has taken the time to post some very detailed info. Info that you may read, dismiss out of hand or not even click on.

We are talking about a possible war and the basic human rights of millions of people. Saddams treatment would get you arrested in this country if you were caught treating a dog or cat that way. That will get certain people very pissed. Of those people there will be different ideas on how to solve it. With passionate ideas things can get heated verbally.

I know a few Lawyers that are buddies. If they come up agains one of their old frat buddie in court they will try to lie, act, show whatever to rip the other guy apart. They remain friends and have a beer at the golf course the next weekend. That is an example of course but it is a valid point.

So I cant talk you out of it but I really hope you or anyone else reconsiders

Re: To all

Richard, C.Ped on 2/28/03 at 08:37 (111135)

I for one do not want to see you leave. Your posts are very much needed along with everyone elses. You have a knowledge of stretching that is beyond me. I need you here. How about we give you a raise in pay...say...100%? Pwease???? Pwetty Pwease???

Richard, C.Ped that needs Julies point of view

Re: unfortunately

carmen on 2/28/03 at 08:54 (111138)

I had to step in on this one...it seems you can do just about ANYthing to animals in the USA and have nothing happen to you...so a more potent analogy might be required. :(
Just the animal lover in me speaking...;o)

Re: To all

john h on 2/28/03 at 09:33 (111145)

Julie: I am indeed sorry to see you depart the board and will always consider you a friend. We have always known we have differeces of opinion on certain issues but that is the way of life and really never effected my respect for you. I do not think these disscussions have been any catastrophic event. These will pass and we will move on to other subjects. It should never be a supprise that we as a people have very differences of opinion. Our country was very nearly split 50/50 during the last Presidential election. We are split nearly 50/50 on Womens Right Vs Right to Life. At least we are not out throwing fire bombs in the streets. Over the past 5 years I have been moved in the abortion debate issue from being a very strong supporter of one side (i will keep that to myself) to the other side of the issue. I listened to the deabates which are shrill to say the least and recognized that at least for me there was a reason to change my beliefs. The issue was never a liberal/conservative or republican/democrat issue for me and never played into my reasoning. Anyway, I think we all need to stay engaged on all the issues.as people can be moved. I would not want a disccussion board where we all agree as I would learn very little. My best to you.

Re: unfortunately

BGCPed on 2/28/03 at 09:56 (111151)

That is true in many respects. But if it is a publicized case they will go hard for the idiot that did it. There is an interesting and sometimes sad show on, I think Discovery. It is real reality show like COPS. It follows human society agents in the inner city. They follow up cases of animal abuse. They will come down pretty hard on many of the things like dog fighting for instance.

Obviously they need to do more. Any person that abuses animals is scum in my book

Re: To all

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/28/03 at 11:16 (111164)


Just one more post and one more dig.

Please read through my discussions with Leon and Marie. Things got fairly hot and heavy, BUT, we did avoid name calling and kept, for the most part, personalities out of it. Why can you not understand that? You are too intelligent not to understand that so I have to assume you are, for some reason, unwilling to understand that. That does puzzle me.

Re: To all

Suzanne D on 2/28/03 at 11:34 (111167)

Dear Julie,

I am also sorry to read that you intend to leave the board. You will not only be missed personally, but your valuable information which you have shared with such generosity will be difficult, if not impossible, to replace.

What John just wrote made me think of a quote I read recently which stated something to this effect: 'When I talk with those who agree with me, I am comforted. When I talk with those who do not agree with me, I learn.'

I will also be sorry if others do not continue posting. Some, like me, have not chosen to engage in the political debates. This does not mean we are unthinking or uncaring individuals. We just do not choose to debate here. But anyone has a right to do so.

This does not mean that we want you - or anyone else - to leave. It seems to have become too 'personal' when individuals post messages to the effect that very few supported them on a particular post or that the only ones left will be the ones who agree and they 'deserve one another'. Those messages make me feel as if we must 'choose sides' and personally support someone or else lose their friendship. That is an uncomfortable feeling.

I do always wish you the best, Julie, as well as Nancy N. and Nancy S. and Paula. I feel you all are friends and will be sad to not hear from you again.

Take care,
Suzanne :-)

Re: inhumanity to animals

Carole C in NOLA on 2/28/03 at 11:45 (111169)

I saw such a sad case yesterday afternoon on TV while flipping through the channels. A poor dog who I think was in NYC had been half starved and neglected and he was just COVERED with tick bites. They showed him with them when he was first rescued and it looked like there was more ticks than dog there. The vet said that he would have died in a week from the ticks if he had not been taken out of there by the ASPCA.

Yes, he was rescued, and his previous owner was taken to court, but this dog suffered terribly and nearly died.

It's mind boggling how cruel people can be to helpless pets. Thank goodness for Carmen and others like her who care and rescue these poor animals day in and day out.

Carole C

Re: To all

Ed Davis, DPM on 2/28/03 at 11:56 (111172)


I believe that Julie will be back. If you read many of the posts today, you will note a positive change in tone.

I have invited Julie to look closely at the debate between Marie, BG, Larson, Leon and myself and how the nature of that differes so greatly form that of some of the other posters. We agree on little but have not personalized the issues, have avoided name calling and personal attacks.
My guess is that several of the individuals involved are unaccustomed to debate but have been motivated by recent events to join in, not being accustomed to the 'ground rules' of such discourse. I had asked numerous times to keep personalities out of it, to no avail. I hope, that as discussions continue, that many will start to recognize and acknowledge the differnces in the nature and style of such discourse and join in accordingly.

Re: To all

Necee on 2/28/03 at 13:55 (111182)

People can only be driven from this board if they allow themselves to be.

We all have voiced different opinions, some see eye to eye, others do not, but thats ok with me. I'm not going anywhere.
Just because someones opinion here doesn't reflect my beliefs isn't good enough for me to bow out of this board.
This world is full of hatred, and evil doers, different cultures and religions, we all must remain on this earth irregardless.
To leave a forum where there is so much to be learned, and so much knowledge to be shared is a shame. I have, for the most part, ignored posting lately, simply because I've been sick, and I don't feel like adding to the tension, and because I don't want to fan the flames, but I'm still here, reading and learning.
Happy trails....


Re: To all

marie on 2/28/03 at 14:07 (111183)


I love reading your posts.


Re: building and strengthening this great message board! :)

Carole C in NOLA on 2/28/03 at 14:26 (111185)

That is true that we cannot be driven away, Necee! At least it is true for 'regulars' like you, me, and Julie. Wheat new foot pain sufferers really need is on the other boards anyway, and hopefully this won't spill over to those boards and won't affect them.

Like you, Necee, I have mostly been sitting here not posting about politics. To me, the best way to approach the situation is to simply ignore political or discordant posts or posts about hurt feelings and instead just post on more pleasant material. We should all remember that each post adds to the board, either positive or negative, and that positive posts about almost anything raises peoples' opinion of the person that posts them! I feel that posting pleasant and caring messages builds and strengthens the message board and makes it better.

I'm sorry to hear that you are still sick! I hope you are able to get enough sleep and rest, and that it goes away soon. If the ice would ever go away, you could see a doctor!

Carole C

Re: I meant "What", not "Wheat"!!! LOLOL :)

Carole C in NOLA on 2/28/03 at 14:28 (111186)

Oh my, my typo-ese is in full swing today. :)

Carole C

Re: building and strengthening this great message board! :)

john h on 2/28/03 at 15:32 (111188)

If anyone's post really bothers someone then just skip over that poster's post. It is like tv just hit the remote button and change channels. Personally I read most as I always like to know if there is something I am missing out on. Sort of what is like what is behind door #3? if you get fired up on the social board I bet you at least forget your foot pain for a while Carole what do you do on your boat trips if all your shipmates are either consedrvative or liberal. Now I just know a group of scientist after a hard days work are ready to debate almost anything such as what is the meaning of life?

Re: midnight conversations at sea

Carole C in NOLA on 2/28/03 at 16:40 (111195)

Hi, John! You've got a really good point about skipping peoples' posts if you don't like them. We all have that option, and why not just skip them? That seems to be just exactly what Necee and I are doing, anyway. Thanks.

In answer to your question, you would not believe what all we talked about during that last cruise. As you probably know, people are pretty careful about what they say on a ship. In close quarters like you have on a ship, people that go to sea for a living learn to shower frequently, to not bump into people or get in peoples' way, and to not offend people. After all, you have to live with these people and get along until the ship comes into port.

I was trying to remember what we talked about in the middle of the night on the last leg I was on when we had some free time to just chat, and it seemed to me that a lot of times it was about food; what kind of breakfast cereal we like or what is REALLY the best way to make gumbo, and who on the ship makes the very best coffee. Going to sea makes people hungry!

We also talked about the rogue wave that broke the window in the galley, the last ship's inspection, and when the ship would be on station and ran through again what we planned to do and in what order and by whom at that time. We reminisced about cruises we were on together years ago, and funny things that happened. We listened to stories about cruises that none of us were ever on, a long time ago, when various calamities or humorous events took place. A lot of these topics could be covered by the phrase, 'sea stories'. LOL We talked about science too, of course.

Since we were being tossed about a bit, we talked about who had extra seasick medicine and who needed it. We talked about the young scientist who was severely seasick and when was the last time anyone checked on him and whether he might have to be airlifted out or not. At sea some other things seem more important and immediate than politics, as you probably could guess.

Carole C

Re: midnight conversations at sea

john h on 2/28/03 at 18:24 (111211)

Carole: reading your post about living in close quarters and being careful not to offend brought back my memories of Viet Nam. Before I left I like the rest of the nation argued,demostrated, and argued some more. When I arrived in Viet Nam and the bullets started flying none of us could care less about politics or the correctness of the war. Our job was to do our assigned mission and survive. I did not care if my buddies who I depended on were democrats,repulicsn,what their religion was of any or anything else. These things could all be argued over a Latte at a coffee house at home. They were completely irrevelent to us in the situation. Our conversations seemed to be about family,home, and how to survive the next mission.I wonder what the guys and girls in the Gulf today would post if they were to wonder on to our board? I really do not know--

Re: To Julie

Leon S. on 2/28/03 at 19:05 (111214)

When I first read your message about leaving the board I was very disappointed. I have not been here as long as most people and I always regarded your messages and information as the foundation for what is necessary for eventual recovery. As other people have said, your input regarding the stretching exercises have been instrumental in getting me to the point where I have a somewhat normal life again. Normal for me, that is. These political debates should not have reached the level of personal animosity that I've seen. As I said somewhere else here, I regard them as an intellectual challenge which enables me to think about these issues in ways that I would not normally do. I work with some pretty conservative people who like to stir the pot with me so some of these discussions I've already been through before. We all take it in good fun and occasionally get one or the other to say that they hadn't thought about a given point and it gives them pause. That's the way these debates should be going also. I propose the same thought to you that is given to those who object to certain programs on radio or television that they don't like. Don't watch them. If these debates have become too much for you then exercise your discretion and don't tune in but please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Re: midnight conversations at sea

Carole C in NOLA on 2/28/03 at 19:16 (111215)

Good point, John...

Carole C

Re: inhumanity to animals

carmen on 3/01/03 at 15:35 (111314)

Hi CArole~
Wasn't that dog owned by a pastor? I remember that one.
We had five puppies dropped in boxes in the street and brought in this weekend......I packed up 7 dogs to take north and adopted out five puppies nad turned around and in came 7 more.
This deployment is killing our homeless animals.
Yes...god bless the military for protecting our country...but couldn't they take the time they had to make arrangements for their animals instead of dumping them?
VERY sad here in TN. these days....and very busy too.

Re: unfortunately

carmen on 3/01/03 at 15:38 (111316)

It's on Animal Planet and there are two called ASPCA Animal Precinct and Animal cops. One is in New York and one is in Michigan.
That is one of the things i do for the Humane Society...investigations.
I don't get a gun though.
You know what though? Sadly.....even if it is publicized...the idiots don't get squat.
We had a guy who literally starved a puppy to DEATH...and the other two and the mama were skin and bones....and he got cited, and got probation. It was on the front page of the newspaper and on the news.
Don't let the stories fool you!!!