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Anti-war protestors

Posted by Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 14:53 (112568)

Tracey Chandler of Whittier displays an American flag that has been burned and slashed by vandals near the informal September 11 memorial on Whittier Boulevard . (Staff photo by Bernardo Alps)

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Antiwar protesters trash 9/11 memorial
American flags burned and slashed
By Debbie Pfeiffer Trunnell, Staff Writer

LA HABRA -- Antiwar protesters burned and ripped up flags, flowers and patriotic signs at a Sept. 11 memorial that residents erected on a fence along Whittier Boulevard days after the terrorist attacks in 2001 and have maintained ever since.

However, although officers witnessed the vandalism Saturday afternoon, police did not arrest three people seen damaging the display because they were 'exercising the same freedom of speech that the people who put up the flags were,' La Habra Police Capt. John Rees said Monday.

'For this to be vandalism, there had to be an ill-will intent,' he said.

Rees said in order for police to take any action, the owner of the fence would have to file a complaint.

Jeff Collison, owner of The RV Center in La Habra, who has allowed residents to add patriotic symbols to the fence on his property, said he just might do that.

'Their free speech stops at destruction of private property. If they are allowed to come on my property and burn flags, does that mean I can go to City Hall or the police station and light their flags on fire because that is freedom of speech? To me, this is vandalism,' Collison said.

Some residents Monday hung signs criticizing those who destroyed the display.

Tracey Chandler, a Whittier mother of four who has maintained the spontaneous memorial since it was created by other area residents soon after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, said she was shocked by the destruction.

'They trashed 87 flags, ripped 11 memorial tiles made by myself and my children out of the ground and glued the Bob Dylan song to a sign that said, 'America, land of the brave, home of the free,' ' she said.

The Bob Dylan song she referred to is 'With God on Our Side,' an antiwar anthem of the 1960s.

'It's unbelievable, because there were absolutely no political messages on this fence. It was all about supporting our troops, which could mean bringing them home, and about remembering 9-11.'

Les Howard, a sociology professor at Whittier College, said the incident might be an indication of some confusion among people trying to stop a possible war against Iraq but uncertain how to express their sentiments. However, he said he does not condone the destruction of symbols important to those who erect them.

'Some think (the best way to support the troops) is to not question their role. Some think the best way is to pursue all means possible to avoid putting them in danger,' he said. 'That still does not excuse any desecration of people's symbolic participation.'

Chandler said she plans to rebuild the Sept. 11 memorial.

'We are going to rebuild this memorial, and it will be brighter, bigger and better than ever,' Chandler said.

Debbie Pfeiffer Trunnell can be reached at (562) 698-0955, Ext. 3028, or by e- mail at (email removed) .

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Re: Anti-war protestors/freedom of speech

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 15:17 (112571)

March 11, 2003

Anti-war professor violated students' rights
By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A college professor violated her student's free-speech rights when she ordered them to write anti-war letters to President Bush and penalized students who refused the assignment, the California school determined. Top Stories
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An apology letter for the incident has been sent to Mr. Bush 'explaining the illegitimate nature of the assignment and requesting that all letters associated with the assignment be retracted,' said Louis E. Zellers, president of Citrus College.
The letters were part of a required speech class taught by Rosalyn Kahn, who was put on a leave of absence last week. Her classes at Pasadena and Los Angeles City College are also being examined to determine if additional letters were sent from those students.
The university investigated after students complained to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE). After visiting the class and interviewing students, Mr. Zellers confirmed the accusations in a letter to Thor Halvorssen, FIRE's chief executive officer.
'Students were told that those who wrote letters expressing alternative views (including support for the war) would not receive credit,' Mr. Zellers said.
'At Citrus College, we strongly believe that all students should have freedom of expression and equal opportunity to benefit, regardless of their political beliefs. We believe that this assignment denied students this opportunity and further, could have encouraged some to violate their conscience in order to benefit.'
Mr. Halvorssen said the Miss Kahn abused her power and demonstrated she is 'not fit to be in higher education.'
Citrus student Chris Stevens said he was shocked by the assignment and first complained to the school before asking for outside help.
'To their credit, they finally did correct everything, and the students are very happy with the outcome,' Mr. Stevens said.
In addition to the anti-war letter, the part-time teacher forced students to write a letter to California state Sen. Jack Scott to protest teacher cuts, and pushed them to lend their names and addresses to postcards of protest to other unnamed state lawmakers.
'All of the letters were to somehow benefit her personally or her political viewpoints,' Mr. Stevens said.
Mr. Halvorssen said this type of problem is widespread and directed mostly at conservative and Christian students.
'This is not new to us. It is a national scandal, especially in a nation that has enshrined the values of freedom of thought and speech,' Mr. Halvorssen said.
'There is no question professors have political views and have the right to espouse and teach views, but it is a categorically different thing when a professor requires students to hold certain views as well.'
When the professor learned students were complaining, graded homeworks and assignments became lost and the homework load increased, Mr. Stevens said.
'It was really disappointing. It's OK for her to hold beliefs and argue for them, but you have to allow people to disagree,' Mr. Stevens said.
The college has provided students with a list of all their assignment grades. One student was able to provide homework not counted, but graded with notes from the teacher.
The students were given an alternative assignment extra credit for writing letters expressing their own views.

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Re: Anti-war protestors

Sharon W on 3/11/03 at 17:41 (112578)

That's really disgusting.

And I don't see any way that should NOT be vandalism. They were destroying things that did not belong to them.

Sharon

Re: Anti-war protestors

BGCPed on 3/11/03 at 18:21 (112585)

I finished jury duty today. There was an interesting discussion after the case was done. Not to pick on a differing opinion but when a person against war with Iraq starts with this phrase 'bush is just doin it cause his daddy didnt finish the job...blah blah blah'. My view on that persons reasoning skills are lowered. That seems to be the easiest and first stated view of many that have been spoon fed their ideas. They will usually follow it up with 'he just wants to steal oil'.

There was a girl on the jury that was obviously middle eastern decent. She didnt seem too comfortable with the subject. She was very polite and I noticed she wore a cross on her neck. I was trying to make her feel ok and asked her if she was Chaldean, which we all know is an Iraqi that is christian.

She said that during persian gulf conflict they were forced from a big 3 story houe and 2 cars. She said they force by brother into army and my father handed keys to house and car to my uncle and we left for the united states. Her brother didnt make it. I said I was very sorry to hear that. I asked her if the majority of Iraqis would shed a tear if Saddam gets his due when the war starts. This was a very polite, pretty girl who spoke about 4 times over 2 days. She said 'I would be the one to put a bullet in his head if I could, many Iraqis wish they could' Sounded strange coming from her mouth, but it makes you realize what an evil bastard he is.

My point being that in this case the ends justifies the means. I dont care if push is doing this for whatever reason. It is kind of like Jeffery Dahmer, he got beat to death in the bathroom in prison. Was it mean, criminal etc? yes it was. Did he deserve it? imho he did. I dont care what motive the guy that did it had. There are some forms of evil that dont deserve to be dealt with in a civilized manner. I guess some would say the karma police pulled over Dahmer. I think they will be visiting Saddam soon as well.

Re: A man of vision....

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 18:30 (112586)

BG:

Ariel Sharon made a profound statement about GW Bush. I think his wisdom will be judged postively in history.
Ed

Sharon: A leader like Bush in the 30s could have prevented the Holocaust
By Ellis Shuman March 11, 2003

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon speaks to members of the Likud's Knesset faction on Monday.

Bush: After Iraq, we'll make progress towards Palestinian state
Sharon expresses support for Bush peace plan leading to Palestinian state
Bush asks Israel to keep low profile on Iraq

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon yesterday praised U.S. President George W. Bush and his determination to wage war against Iraq. Sharon strongly supported the need to change the leadership in Iraq, but said Israel is not involved in the war. Senior defense officials say the likelihood that Iraq would launch missiles at Israel in the case of an American attack is 'very, very, very low.'

'It's impossible to free one's self from the feeling that if in Europe, in the 1930s, there had similarly been such a leader, it's possible that Europe would not have been ravaged by World War II and that we, the Jewish nation, would not have paid the terrible price of losing 6 million people,' Sharon told members of Likud's Knesset faction on Monday.

'We know there is a real and necessary attempt here to stop rogue governments, like the one in Iraq, from endangering the region and the world... We have been fighting terrorism for more than 120 years; we know the threat it poses, and now the world has a better understanding of how serious the danger is...

'We hope that if there is such a war, it will open up more opportunities for diplomatic initiatives that could lead to peace,' Sharon said.

Sharon emphasized that Israel was not involved in the war. 'We are neither pressing to move it forward, nor do we seek to postpone it. We know that this is a necessary attempt to bring an end to the capability of tyrannical regimes, such as the one in Iraq, to tangibly endanger the entire world.'

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and U.S. Ambassador Dan Kurtzer yesterday denied reports published in Maariv on Monday that the Bush administration was so angry about leaks and public pronouncements emanating from Israel that it had decided not to give Israel prior warning about the beginning of the expected campaign against Iraq.

'There is no way we are going to surprise our ally, so I don't know where those press reports came from,' Kurtzer said. 'They are without foundation.'

'The blabbering of senior officials in and out of uniform who talk as if they were conducting the war is causing harm,' ynet yesterday quoted Foreign Ministry sources as saying.

Sharon decided that from now on, only he, Shalom and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz will make public comments about the expected war with Iraq, while all other ministers will be forbidden to give interviews on the topic

Warning will be given hours ahead of American attack
Yediot Aharonot reported today that the United States promised to provide Israel with advance warning of the start of its attack against Iraq, but it would be only 'hours' in advance, much shorter than earlier assumed. The notice would be given to Sharon personally in a phone call from Washington, the paper said. Previously it was thought that Israel would have as much as a 72-hour advance notice of the attack.

Sharon met yesterday with Maj.-Gen. Charles Simpson, director of operations for the U.S. Air Forces in Europe, who will serve as liaison between the American army and the defense establishment in Israel. Simpson is due to remain in Israel during the entire Iraqi campaign and coordinate security arrangements between the two countries.

Senior IDF officials said that if Saddam Hussein planned to attack Israel in response to an American strike, there would already be signs of preparations in western Iraq, Maariv reported today. According to foreign news reports, dozens of satellites are spying on territories from which Scud rockets could be fired at Israel, and the area is presently free from rockets.

Maariv reported that senior officials in the IDF have reached the conclusion that the possibility of an Iraqi missile strike at Israel is highly unlikely. One unnamed senior official was quoted as saying, 'The chance [of an Iraqi attack] is very, very, very low.'

Talk Back! Respond to this article

Re: Anti-war protestors

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 18:33 (112587)

Sharon:

Somehow liberals take a very liberal interpretation of freedom of speech when it comes to expressing their views but a much more restrictive interpretation when conservatives speak. We have seen enough evidence of that previously on this board.
Ed

Re: A man of vision....

john h on 3/11/03 at 18:54 (112588)

Ed: Winston Churchill was very much in President Bush position as WWII broke out. He was seen as a war monger and not very much liked by the people of Britian. Fortunate for Britian and the rest of us he was a man of vision and steel and rallyed the Brits and the rest of the world. Roosevely was loved but the general population was against getting involved in the troubles of Europe. It took Pearl Harbor to wake us up. Protesters are not always right. We see a lot about protest but the fact is the majority of the people still support Bush on his handling of Iraq. He clearly is not making his decisions based on political considerations but on what he believes best for America and free people everywhere. Would I rather have Bush in charge at this moment in history or Gore. That is sort of a no brainer.

Re: A man of vision....

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 18:58 (112590)

John:

I think history will judge President Bush well....

Dennis Prager (archive)
(printer-friendly version)

March 11, 2003

The Lone Ranger rides again

Let it be said before we know the outcome of the war in Iraq that America and the world are inordinately lucky to have George W. Bush as America's president.

In fact, I would go further. To the extent that one is ever able to see the hand of God in history -- and since biblical times, one has never been given certitude in this regard -- I believe that either divine intervention or good luck on the magnitude of a lottery win explains George W. Bush's rise to the position of president.

It is not meant to disparage the character of two decent men, Al Gore and Joseph Lieberman, to say that we should daily get down on our hands and knees in gratitude that George W. Bush, along with Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice, has governed our country since 9-11. I am not alone (even many Democrats now agree) in shuddering at the thought of how close we were to having the Democratic Party governing at this time.

Al Gore, I always believed, was more frightening than Bill Clinton. President Clinton loved politics and power, and he did not appear to have a set of core beliefs. This prevented him from ever attaining greatness. But it also prevented him from being dangerous. Gore, on the other hand, did deeply believe in something: the greatest danger to the world was the threat to the natural environment. George W. Bush most fears a different danger to the world: human evil.

Al Gore and the Democratic Party, like the Western Europeans, fear global warming far more than they fear Saddam Hussein. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney fear Saddam far more than they fear carbon dioxide emissions.

Lacking the moral confidence possessed by President Bush, Al Gore and his Democratic Party would have striven for consensus -- arguing, again just as the European moral relativists do, that it is morally right to attack Iraq if the United Nations says it is, but morally wrong if the United Nations says it is not. For the Democratic Party and their European allies, right and wrong are man-made constructs, and therefore U.N. votes determine what is right. George W. Bush argues that morality should never be decided by a U.N. vote, that having Syria, China, Guinea and France determine what is right and wrong and what America should do to protect itself would precipitate the beginning of the end of America and of civilization itself.

George W. Bush believes in a God 'who is not neutral' between good and evil, between the torturer and the tortured. The Democratic Party prefers to see God as a deity who shies away from making moral judgments. Or whose judgments are His alone, unknowable to mortals.

George W. Bush believes that America has a God-given mission to be a light to the world and to spread liberty. The Democratic Party believes that such talk is chauvinistic arrogance. They believe, like the French, that the United Nations, not America, should be the most powerful force on earth.

George W. Bush would surely like the world to agree with him and to like him, but, thank God, he is prepared to go it alone and to be hated -- a defining trait of a great leader. Most Democrats believe that America should never go it alone and that if America is widely disliked, America must be wrong. In this regard, George W. Bush is the antithesis of his Democratic predecessor Bill Clinton, for whom being loved was of paramount importance.

George W. Bush is regularly described by American and foreign critics as a 'cowboy.' They are right, and for this, too, we should thank God. The Europeans and Democrats use that term as an epithet, but for many Americans the image of a lone cowboy fighting bad men is a revered one. Many of us have far more moral confidence in the Lone Ranger than in Jacques Chirac or Kofi Annan.

The Lone Ranger rides again. Thank God he does.

2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

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Re: A man of vision....

BGCPed on 3/11/03 at 20:01 (112598)

Interesting indeed. The problems over there have festered, along with Korea for many years. I just read that T Blair may back British support down due to political pressure. That would be a shame.

Re: Anti-war protestors

BGCPed on 3/11/03 at 20:15 (112600)

There was an article in our local paper about a university having a sit in type day. They attended an all day gathering. One of the organizers claimed they were neutral and wanted all views to be heard regarding Iraq. They played bongo drums and read poems etc. Interesting enough there was ont one single quote from anyone supporting action in Iraq but all against it, some rather stupid ones I might add.

Everbody has a right to their opinion but it irks me to have a writer toss in a token reference to being open to all views, then not print one. I am sure the treatment any dissenters would have got had they been welcome would be less than tolerant

Re: Anti-war protestors

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/11/03 at 20:58 (112603)

BG:

It would be interesting to know more about the organizers -- get their background info. and see how 'neutral' they really are. It is my contention that a lot of the ringleaders have a political agenda with ulterior motives even so many of the followers may innocently follow the flow.
Ed

Re: Anti-war protestors

BGCPed on 3/11/03 at 21:15 (112607)

You are right about that. It is a safe bet that you could guess the agenda of the organizers. They make statements like they welcomed all to the table and we want to present all sides. It was hogwash. I think the report is worse since it was supposed to be news and not editorial. They didnt present any opinion from the other side.

It would be like claiming you are going to write about racial equality and diversity then go to a kkk metting for the content and opinions

Re: The courage to "go it alone".

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/12/03 at 10:54 (112648)

One has to wonder who is with us and who is against us......
Say what you want! PRAVDA.Ru will hear you!

Mar, 06 2003

In Russian Em Portugues

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Pravda.RU:Top Stories:More in detail

00:47 2003-03-06

Thousands of Russians volunteer to defend Iraq

Around ten thousand Russian citizens have applied for entry visas into Iraq to defend this country against the planned aggression by the warmongering USA and UK, according to the Iraqi Embassy in Moscow.

Iraqi Ambassador to Moscow, Abbas Khalaf, declared last week that the Embassy had received around 3,500 requests, a number which has multiplied in the last few days, according to sources in the same Embassy.

The requests come from young males, some with combat experience, who describe themselves as 'volunteers' who are willing to defend Iraq against the illegal armed aggression of the USA and the United Kingdom, two countries which continue to follow a belligerent stance on crisis management, wholly outside the generally accepted concepts of a New World Order based upon multilateralist approaches to problem solving, based upon the United Nations Organisation, a position championed by president Putin's Russian Federation.

For those who present an adequate reason for travelling to Iraq, the Embassy provides a visa and transportation, free of charge.

Timofei BYELO
PRAVDA.Ru

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American doctors determined that the USA tested biological weapons in Iraq
'In 1993 my brother Scott fell ill with a weird disease. His body was covered with rash, it looked like his blood was boiling underneath his skin. He was treated of that ailment for a long time, although he died a year later. Scott was a veteran of the 'Storm in the Desert' operation. His disease was diagnosed as lupus.' This sickness is rather frequent amid those men, who have been through the war in the Persian Gulf More details...

17:58
How Much Is Bush's Ambition?
According to the most unfavorable forecasts of western economists, a war against Iraq, including all expenses, may cost the world economy 1.6 trillion dollars
Last week US President George W. Bush reported that the Congress would soon get an official report on budget of a war in Iraq to the sum of 95 billion dollars. The budget includes military operations, clearing of consequences of these operations, protection from probable acts of terrorism and compensations to allies, to Turkey firs of all. Such is the cost of a long war without serious complications, American experts say More details...

15:52
License for Flying Car
So-called flying cars may become air transport of the future
It is highly likely that urban transport will soon climb up not the second and third floors, but the tenth floor at once. In other words, it may soon appear right in the sky. Air cars, air motorcycles and rocket haversacks from Hollywood may soon come to our everyday life. Are we ready for it? Last year engineers from American corporation Millenium Jet tested their SoloTrek, a one-seat screw-propeller with two screws More details...

14:10
Saudi Arabia: USA Deluding Itself Over Iraq
Anyone who thinks he can control Iraq is deluding himself
The United States is deluding itself if it thinks it can control Iraq after a second Gulf war, which it has threatened to launch soon, Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal said on February 26. Prince Saud was addressing a news conference in Jeddah to discuss the looming Iraq war More details...

12:44
Brest Peace: Indecent Treaty or Rescue of Exhausted Country?
Despite the fact that the treaty was concluded 85 years ago, estimations of this document are still diametrically opposite
An event that was a real ordeal for Russia is now far behind. On March 3, 1918, in the city of Brest-Litovsk (now Brest) a peace treaty was concluded between Soviet Russia, on the one part, and Germany, Austria-Hungary and Turkey, on the other part. We mean it was an ordeal only for Bolsheviks who shortly before conclusion of the treaty seized authority in the country and for their political opponents. Majority of the population received information on conclusion of the peace treaty with relief (and those who were anxious about their personal survival didn't care about the treaty at all) More details...

11:15
Migrants in Russia: More Harm Than Good
Number of 'labor migrants' in Russia makes up 3.5-5 million people now
This is an estimate given by director general of the Coordination Council of Russia's Employers Associations, Oleg Yeremeyev. At the same time, the number of officially registered 'labor migrants' in Russia makes up only 350 thousand people. Meanwhile, Oleg Yeremeyev thinks that labor migration is a negative process for the country on both levels, micro and macro More details...

10:00
Chile to Investigate Spying Denounces on US Intelligence Services
According to a report published by the British newspaper Observer, Washington is spying six UN Security Council members including Mexico and Chile
Chile took seriously a report published by 'The Observer' on Sunday, in which the British newspaper blames the CIA on spying UN Security Council members. In fact, Soledad Alvear, country's Foreign Minister instructed the Ambassador in London to confirm press versions. More details...

00:49
Russia for Peace, USA for War
Russian Foreign Minister slams fist on table: No!
Igor Ivanov, the Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation stated the position of his country clearly and unequivocally on Friday: that Russia will not allow any resolution which opens the path for war to pass in the Security Council. More details...

Pravda.RU:Best articles on this week:Top Stories

2003.02.27
YUKOS Increases Oil Supplies to China Before Pipeline is Built

2003.02.28
What is the Price of Life?

2003.02.28
Forbes: Why Russians Are Clever, But Poor

2003.03.03
Malaria Strains Latin America

2003.03.03
Japan Air Traffic in Trouble

2003.03.04
China to Join Space Club

2003.03.05
Ivanov Continues to Follow the Right Path

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Re: The courage to "go it alone".

BGCPed on 3/12/03 at 12:12 (112657)

Wow that last paragraph.....he said a mouthful, everything cover but the grassy knoll. Interesting point that I didnt see mentioned was that communism and lack of a democratic society is the leading cause of death in last 80 years (non medical at least)

I say give those volunteer lemmings what they want. Saddma will prob put them on the front line. I hope their efforts will be more successful than the human shields that were there for a few days.

Re: A man of vision....

Leon S. on 3/12/03 at 19:16 (112693)

John, I agree with you about Churchill and of course I put FDR in the same class. They were STATESMEN in the true meaning of the word. They had focus and a clear view of the present and the future. My biggest fear is that no one in this administration is a statesman. If there were, we would have a consistent message from our leadership and I don't see it or hear it. We are getting various 'spins' everytime someone makes a statement about our goals and what the future bears. Aside from the military people and their families, I don't hear any message to the public about making sacrifices or any other suggestion to support the war effort. I do hear about more tax cuts to put money in our pocket so that we can go out and spend more and pretend that everything is okay. I'm not a student of history the way you are but I don't think I have ever heard of a time when we were about to go to war, requiring huge military expenditures and the president wants to have more tax cuts. I like more money in my pocket as much as the next guy but I really think this policy is going to ruin an already terrible economy.

Re: A man of vision....

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/12/03 at 20:31 (112697)

Leon:

Considering the diversity of economic theories, I don't think we will reach a concensus on this one. The theory in operation is that money spent in the private sector is more productive than money spent by government.

A couple supporting examples of effective economic stimuli included tax cuts by Kennedy and Reagan which appeared very effective despite the immediate creation or widening of deficits.
Ed

Re: A man of vision....

BGCPed on 3/12/03 at 20:32 (112698)

I think the message is clear. We want Saddam, Bin Laden and their ilk to face justice, most preferable dead. What these men have done directly or aided leaves no option. I think the spins, so to speak and the lack of clear goal is partially the left/media fault.

When Bush speaks strongly he is accused of being a cowboy, avenging his daddy and an oil thief. I think he needs to return to his original resolve. Clinton ruled by pols and he bombed a few times with hardly a mention from many on the left. A great leader risks his future by sticking to his guns and not holding a wet finger in the air.

He is in between a rock and a hard place. He gets aggressive he is a war mongering cowboy. He backs off and becomes more passive he is lacking focus. Tony Blair is feeling the crunch also. Many on the left ask why he is not going after Korea. If, tomorrow he said we are sending 100,000 troops to Korea the left would go nuts. The bottom line they dont like him and will not support anything he does. I listen to all of this 'give the inspectors a chance' ' we dont have a smoking gun' etc.

He has many smoking guns in his past, more than should qualify for his dispatch to hell. I guess we need more 9-11? Sure there wont be a plane with Saddams face on it flown from Iraq but there is and surly has been support from him. GWB 1 should have rolled in all the way to Bagdad but he would have been called a meanie for pounding a weaker country.

I would ask any that are against force in Iraq this question. If you lived there would you pray for him to be removed? Can you really with good humanitarian reason ignore the fact that probably 90% of the citizens in Iraq want him dead or removed? I just find many on the left to use floating premise and logic. They use 2 angles to malign the Bush administration.

I think after all is said and done Bush will leave a decent mark in history. Just my opinion

Re: A man of vision....

BGCPed on 3/12/03 at 20:35 (112700)

Thats correct Dr Ed. I would say that $1000 in the hands of a consumer or business persons pocket will do 10x more than in a government coffer.

When the auto companies give out yearly bonus to hourly it is a huge spike to the economy. Many business will even advertise to spend bonus checks with them. 3k in each workers pocket gets put back into the economy.

Re: A man of vision....

john h on 3/13/03 at 08:54 (112735)

this war if it comes could cause Bush and Blair their jobs but I think they are putting their country above politics and trying to do the right thing. They are not governing by polls.

Re: A man of vision....

john h on 3/13/03 at 10:55 (112749)

Leon: I do not connect tax cuts with a possible war in Iraq. Certainly the reasons for a war far out weigh economic considerations if one is to believe Saddam is a threat to the security of the United States and the rest of the free world. Our economic problems are the result of many problems the largest I believe being 9/11. I do not know if there is anyway to know the damage this has done to the country economically.The psyche of the American people has been changed forever and I do not know that there is one economic plan that will dig us out. It is going to take time and a change in our perceptions. We are no where near the depths of the Great Depression and we came out of that and we will come out of this. It will take some years to judge President Bush on his handling of the current possible war. The President's first and most important job function is protection of the United States. He has stated that he believes that no action is worse than war. If we are going to err in my opinion you always err on the side of safety when it comes to national security. 9/11 did not happen because of our threat to Iraq. We do have a clear and present danger and inaction is really not an option. The question is not war or no war. The war started on 9/11. Is Iraq a threat? They invaded Iran and Kuwait. They gassed the Iranians and Kurds. They torture and kill tens of thousands of their own people. Can there be any question that Iraq and Saddam are a danger?

Re: A man of vision....

marie on 3/13/03 at 11:07 (112751)

But with all due respect, we the people elect politicians to serve our interests. I would hope that a real men of vision would listen to what their people have to say on any subject. I think Bush and Blair are listening and compromise will occur. This may not save us from a brutal war but the will of the people will be heard. Many people don't necssarily object to the removal of Saddam and his government but they also don't believe war is the first and only answer to the issue at hand. I believe that Saddam has not destroyed all of his aresonal of chemical and biological weapons but I don't know that for a fact. I believe that the UN has made some progress...perhaps more in the last 3 months than in the last 5 years because we have put the pressure on. Men of real vision and courage will respect and listen to others.

I am concerned about Wolfstrum's papers on World Dominance written some 10 years ago. His vison directs the US to make a military sweep of the middle east replacing governments in the region to our liking. Hmmmmm..........

Re: A man of vision....

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/13/03 at 12:00 (112756)

Marie:

When the Constitutional Convention adjourned in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin emerged and stated, 'We have given you a republic.' Leaders are elected to represent the best interests of their constituents but not necessarily the majority opinion at a given time. If leaders governed by polls, then we would not have a true representative government as originally envisioned. Of course, leaders should listen to the public, but they should mkae decisons consistent with the character we admired when we elected them and make decisions on principle as opposed to popular whim.

We could have started the war some time ago, and as you are acknowledging, the stance of iminent war is a tactic unto itself designed to obtain concessions. This holding pattern has hurt our economy, driving up oil prices and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty in the markets. We have been bastions of patience with the process but cannot let Saddam continue to play with us indefinitely.
Ed

Re: A man of vision....

marie on 3/13/03 at 13:56 (112772)

ED,I do agree with some of what you say but it is the responsiblity of every elected official to serve the peoples best interest.
Have you ever visited the Viet Nam War Memorial? It is interesting that the artist who designed the wall was not well received in the beginning, some felt that a different monument should be erected and it was. But most people couldn't tell you what that monument looks like. Everyone can tell you about the wall of names. I can tell you there is a silence at the wall. It is overwhelming. Each of those names should remind us of the end result of all wars. Don't you think at this time in history that we could come up with diplomatic solutions that give testimony to our advanced intelect?

There are a few allies who will side with us but the majority of the world community does not. I respect both Bush and Blair but I am not so arrogant as to discount every other countries clear objection to a war before inspections finalized.

marie

Re: A man of vision....

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/13/03 at 17:00 (112808)

Marie:

We can come up with diplomatic solutions but what is the advantage of doing so? They will not be accepted by Iraq. There is little room to compromise on the critical issues concerning WMD. If Saddam agrees to a diplomatic solution, can he be trusted to keep his part of the agreement? Do we keep 300,000 troops in place, waiting to see if Saddam complies or not? If so, how long do we do so? What period of time would satisfy those who call our 12 year wait a 'rush to war?'

I am very concerned that the 'world community' does not stand behind us but I cannot use that as a critierion for what is right and what should be done. The UN has been wrong on so many issues and have levied condmenations selectively and incorrectly throughout the years. I have no qualm about the US taking the role as the lone ranger in this situation.
Sometimes, 'too many cooks spoil the broth.' We had a large coalition in the first Gulf War and had to satisfy our allies by not finishing off Saddam when we had the opportunity at that time.
Ed

Re: A man of vision....

marie on 3/13/03 at 17:56 (112825)

Take a moment and read the recent article by President Carter. It's posted above. I'm not trying to change your mind just open it. As you have opened mine. Patience.