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food for thought from our president's father

Posted by Mason on 3/19/03 at 10:31 (113449)

'We should not march into Baghdad. To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero . . . assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability.'

- former president George H. W. Bush, in his book A WORLD TRANSFORMED, 1998

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/19/03 at 11:01 (113452)

Mason:
We did not go into Baghdad in 1991 because of the coalition. It was a mistake then. We made a trade back then, leave Saddam alone to murder a few more hundred thousand Iraqis and develop WMD or make our allies angry.
Which path was more important to you?
Ed

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Sharon W on 3/19/03 at 11:22 (113455)

I recognize that line of reasoning; it's the line of reasoning that led the US-led coalition to leave Iraq in 1991 without taking Baghdad.

Unfortunately, the 'broken tyrant,' Saddam, turned out to be considerably more resourceful than many people anticipated. Saddam has managed to claim and to hold the status of 'latter-day Arab hero' despite his defeat in the Gulf War and despite the fact that he was shown mercy by the allied forces. He has used this current situation to firmly identify himself as a heroic Arab martyr standing up to 'American aggression', and he's solidified his support among Arabs and other countries of the world at the expense of the US. During this war Saddam will employ every deception, every manipulation, every lie, and every dirty trick in the book that he thinks he can get by with -- probably increasing the death toll among Iraqi citizens by deliberately putting them in harm's way -- all with the intention to strengthen his image as a heroic victim of unwarranted aggression by the US. He will not use chemical or biological weapons against us but will continue to conceal his true nature from the world until it's too late. Even assuming the US wins a speedy military victory, we will surely be the losers in the court of world opinion.

But, the ultimatum was made -- and it was answered with threats and belligerent refusal (as expected). It's too late to change that. So like I said before, the time has come to join together and support our troops who are fighting for their country, even if we did not support the decisions that took us to this point.

Sharon
.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Mason on 3/19/03 at 13:19 (113475)

Say, folks, I'm just putting out for your consideration a statement by our president's father, a Republican ex-president who was commander of the first Gulf War. These are his thoughts, in 1998, seven years afterward.

It interests me that the thoughts of two Republican ex-presidents, including one U.S. General, are so repugant to the crowd here. What will you be saying about the current one in future years?

It's all just food for thought, and I hope someone is actually thinking.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

BGCPED on 3/19/03 at 13:37 (113481)

Cant think, being bombarded with to many facts and logical conclusions for my right wing mind to digest.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Sharon W on 3/19/03 at 13:43 (113485)

The comments of George Bush, Sr. aren't repugnant to me. He did what he believed to be right, at the time. Bush didn't want any more bloodshed than necessary, and I certainly understand that.

But I think he really misjudged Saddam when he left Iraq without taking Baghdad, believing that Saddam's overwhelming defeat at the hands of the allied forces would make him less dangerous. Bush, Sr. was wrong. If he had not turned back then, allowing Saddam to surrender and stay in power, Saddam would either be dead now or in prison for his crimes -- and this war would never take place.

Sharon

Re: food for thought from our president's father

john h on 3/19/03 at 14:34 (113498)

Hang tough BG your mind will handle it just fine. We have our finest over there in the desert and they are going to make you proud to be an American and are going to make the lives of all Irqui's better. Lives will be lost but freedom comes with a price. When I was at war when the chips were down we all did what we had to do and accepted the risk proudly.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Mason on 3/19/03 at 14:38 (113501)

From today's Associated Press:

'Bush has said he has no proof that Iraq was linked to the 2001 strikes.'

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/19/03 at 14:54 (113505)

Mason:

No one has said that Bush Sr. was repugnant here. He is mortal (this area seems to be a bugaboo considering some recent post here) and made some mistakes. Most conservatives feel he made a mistake in raising taxes. Many feel he should have finnished of Saddam in 1991. That is a hard call and one that is easier to do in retrospect though. Bush Sr., if he did invade Baghdad, would have incurred the wrath of a number of allies causing a number of foreign policy complications. Clinton had the chance to take out Bin Laden in 1998 and blew it for lack of any good reason that anyone has come up with other than personal distractions.
Ed

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/19/03 at 14:58 (113507)

Mason:

Foreign policy does not require the same burden of proof as a US criminal court. Iraq has a terrorist rtraining camp in Salmon Pak in northern Iraq in which terrorists practiced taking over planes with box cutters. Okay, we don't know if that camp specifically trained Mohammed Atta and company. We may find out a lot more very soon though.
Ed

Re: food for thought from our president's father

john h on 3/19/03 at 16:24 (113529)

Ed: We are not going to change Mason and Mason is not going to change us. I think any meaningful dialog is lost here. Most if not all of us got here via foot problems. Does Mason have a foot problem or did he just wonder in to discuss politics and philosophy.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Mason on 3/19/03 at 16:44 (113532)

John: Mason has had plantar fasciitis on and off for about six years.

Please read again what I said about Clinton: I said i do _not_ think he was a great president.

Do you think Israel and its citizens are safer for falling back on the eye-for-an-eye approach? For years and years they and the Palestinians have killed each other. It may go on forever. None of them will ever be safe. Both sides have failed at more intelligent, constructive solutions. They seem to have given up on those attempts, and that's tragic. That isn't a scenario any sane person would want to copy. I certainly don't want it for my country. I'm quite sure you don't either. But then, I don't really know you.

Re: food for thought from our president's father

john h on 3/19/03 at 17:51 (113536)

ok Mason if you have had PF for 6 years you must be an ok guy just to have made it this far.at least all this is keeping you distracted from your pf pain

Re: food for thought from our president's father

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/19/03 at 20:49 (113573)

Mason:
Have you considered or tried ESWT?
Ed