This brought tears to my eyesPosted by Steve P on 3/21/03 at 20:29 (113834)
Did you all see the Iraqi civilians hugging our soldiers & dancing in the streets on TV? Cheering as the big photo of Saddam was being torn down, as American flags fluttered on the tanks?
It was almost too much to watch.
These people have lived in hellish conditions for 20+ years.
I really have to believe that this liberation is God's work.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesEd Davis, DPM on 3/21/03 at 22:56 (113853)
I feel that the US has taken the moral high road in this action. Having the courage to do what is right is so more important than giving in to the will of the majority. Although, no poll has been taken, the media spin makes it sound like it is the US against the world. Not really so. According to Rumsfeld, 45 countries are now behind us.
Re: This brought tears to my eyeswendyn on 3/22/03 at 08:38 (113872)
Dr Ed - the interesting thing is that even though 45 countries are 'behind you' and the others are 'against you' - there is a mix of people everywhere on each side.
For example - Britain is technically 'behind you' - yet there are a number of people there very upset about the support being given.
Canada is technically 'against you' - yet there are a number of people here very upset about the _lack_ of support being given.
It's not a cut and dry answer anywhere (even in your own country which last I heard was about 66/34 in favour).
Re: WendynSharon W on 3/22/03 at 10:30 (113881)
I was very sad, though, to see the booing of our national anthem at that hockey game in Canada. That was very unsportsmanlike and quite uncalled for. The objections to this war seem to have led, not only to dissent and protest, but to acting out rage and to extreme ugliness that does not persuade anyone but rather angers and divides us all.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesjohn h on 3/22/03 at 10:35 (113882)
whether you are for or against the war it is all moot. There is a war in fact. Demonstration at this point only cause problems. What good does blocking the Golden Gate Bridge do. If one wants to do somthing positive go down and work in a soup kitchen or help Jimmy Carter build homes for the poor. People will get a chance to vote soon enough.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesSharon W on 3/22/03 at 10:50 (113886)
Amen to that, John! I did not want this war, but it still angers me to see zit-faced 19-year-old college dropout 'student organizers' yelling obcenities to incite an angry crowd while burning the American flag, at THIS point, while their contemporaries are out there sweating in chemical suits and risking their lives for their countries. That is not just exercising free speech to express opposition to the war, it is showing utter contempt for those young soldiers and their sacrifices, it is showing contempt for the grieving families who have just lost their loved ones to the war, it is showing contempt for all Americans.
Re: WendynEd Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 11:15 (113891)
Sharon and Wendyn:
I am taking my family on vacation to Banff, BC during the second week in April. Hopefully, we will encounter a welcome attitude.
All opinions can and should be respected but there is a sad lack of moral clarity on the part of those who cannot or will not understand what is at stake here and have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesEd Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 11:18 (113892)
John and Sharon:
There is room for disagreement on tactics but a couple of decades of wallowing in moral relativism have hobbled the ability of many to distinguish between right and wrong.
Re: your vacation to Banff?carynz on 3/22/03 at 11:58 (113901)
please make sure you are travelling to Banff, AB Alberta not BC British Columbia. This is a beautiful place to holiday but you'd be getting lost if you look for it in BC. It is approximately 1 hour east of Calgary by car.
have a wonderful time, do you ski? The natural cave and basin hot pools are the best so take time to enjoy them.
Re: To Dr. Ed.Pauline on 3/22/03 at 11:59 (113902)
I don't live in Canada, but I don't foresee you having any problems with the people in Canada. I've only encountered wonder friendly citizens whenever I've traveled throughout our neighboring country.
Banff is a beautiful area, with beautiful sights, good food, great animal viewing, just a real camera's delight. Make sure you go out on the ice fields. The wonders of nature are spectacular and there is no better place that I can think of where to view them.
You have a wonder trip in store and I think you'll find our Canadian neighbors warm as ever.
Re: Wendyncarynz on 3/22/03 at 12:02 (113903)
please don't ever feel that you or anyone else from the USA would never be welcome to Canada. As you know we are a very friendly nation and have always welcomed our friends and neighbours to the south. I have never had anyone in the USA mock me because I am Canadian or Albertan or a Calgarian. Go and enjoy your holiday with your family, spend your money because it is worth more as you know!!! Check your maps though because you need to make sure you are travelling to the correct province!
You will be treated with respect and probably some sympathy too. Just as an F.Y.I., Banff is mostly owned by the Japanese now and has been for some time. There is a Canadian influx but also a huge Japanese flavour in the townsite.
Have a fun time. And please share with us your time in Canada when you return home okay.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesNecee on 3/22/03 at 14:12 (113911)
I saw the news footage of the marines tearing down the huge picture of Saddam. It was very heartwarming to see the support of the Iraqi civilians. What brought me to tears was seeing the civilians gathering around our marines, hugging them and thanking them. It brought solace to the faces of our weary soldiers.
I pray they all come home safely and soon.
Re: your vacation to Banff?Ed Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 14:54 (113912)
Thank you. I did not actually look at the map yet. The exact place is called Fairmont Hot Springs.
Re: WendynEd Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 14:57 (113913)
My podiatry school roomate practices in Alberta, Gerald Joseph, DPM.
He grew up in Pennsylvania but married Nancy O'Neal, DPM, from Ontario. They moved to Calgary immediately after graduation to set up a practice together.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesEd Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 14:58 (113914)
'You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious'
'I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand'
James Meek in Safwan
Saturday March 22, 2003
Yesterday afternoon a truck drove down a side road in the Iraqi town of Safwan, laden with rugs and furniture. Booty or precious possessions? In a day of death, joy and looting, it was hard to know.
As the passengers spotted European faces, one boy grinned and put his thumb up. The other nervously waved a white flag. The mixed messages defined the moment: Thank you. We love you. Please don't kill us.
US marines took Safwan at about 8am yesterday. There was no rose-petal welcome, no cheering crowd, no stars and stripes.
Afraid that the US and Britain will abandon them, the people of Safwan did not touch the portraits and murals of Saddam Hussein hanging everywhere. It was left to the marines to tear them down. It did not mean there was not heartfelt gladness at the marines' arrival. Ajami Saadoun Khlis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of the Guardian's Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming.
'You just arrived,' he said. 'You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave.'
'For a long time we've been saying: 'Let them come',' his wife, Zahara, said. 'Last night we were afraid, but we said: 'Never mind, as long as they get rid of him, as long as they overthrow him, no problem'.' Their 29-year-old son was executed in July 2001, accused of harbouring warm feelings for Iran.
'He was a farmer, he had a car, he sold tomatoes, and we had a life that we were satis fied with,' said Khlis. 'He was in prison for a whole year, and I raised 75m dinars in bribes. It didn't work. The money was gone, and he was gone. They sent me a telegram. They gave me the body.'
The marines rolled into the border town after a bombardment which left up to a dozen people dead. Residents gave different figures. A farmer, Haider, who knew one of the men killed, Sharif Badoun, said: 'Killing some is worth it, to end the injustice and suffering.' The men around him gave a collective hysterical laugh.
The injustice of tyranny was merged in their minds with the effects of sanctions. 'Look at the way we're dressed!' said Haider, and scores of men held up their stained, holed clothes. 'We are isolated from the rest of the world.'
The marines took Safwan without loss, although a tank hit a mine. 'They had to clear that route through. They found the way to punch through and about 10 Iraqi soldiers surrendered immediately,' said Marine Sergeant Jason Lewis, from Denver, standing at a checkpoint at the entrance to the town where, minutes earlier, a comrade had folded a huge portrait of President Saddam and tucked it into his souvenir box.
The welcome, he admitted, had been cool. 'At first they were a little hesitant,' he said. 'As you know, Saddam's a dictator, so we've got to reassure them we're here to stay _ We tore down the Saddam signs to show them we mean business.
'Hopefully this time we'll do it right, and give these Iraqis a chance of liberty.'
But the marines' presence was light. They had not brought food, medicines, or even order. All day hundreds of armoured vehicles poured through the town. But they did not stop, and the looting continued. Every government establishment seemed to be fair game. People covered their faces in shame as they carried books out of a school. Tawfik Mohammed, the headmaster, initially denied his school had been looted, then admitted it. 'This is the result of your entering,' he said. 'Whenever any army enters an area it becomes chaos. We are cautious about the future. We are very afraid.'
Safwan yesterday was a place where people were constantly taking you aside to warn in veiled terms that it was necessary to be careful. Everywhere was the lingering fear that the revenge killings that swept the area in 1991 - a product of US encourage ment and then abandonment of the southern Iraqi revolt - could happen again.
'Now, we are afraid [Saddam's] government will come back,' said Haider, as the Safwan Farmers' Cooperative was being looted behind him. 'We don't trust the Americans any more. People made a revolution, and they didn't help us.'
Safwan is a crumbling, dead-end place, full of poor, restless young men, and reliant on the tomato trade for its income. Farmers were panicking yesterday as they asked journalists, in lieu of anyone better, how they were supposed to sell their tomatoes.
A handful of soldiers, mainly US marines but with a few British, are struggling to cope with the chaos and the lack of health care or aid.
At a checkpoint just north of the town two British military policemen with paramedical training and a US doctor rushed to treat two Iraqi men brought in on the back of a beaten-up pick-up truck. Their legs were lacerated by shrapnel. The military policemen did their conscientious best, and may have saved their lives.
22.03.2003: War in the Gulf: day two
20.03.2003: Full text: George Bush's address on the start of war
More key speeches and documents
Click-through graphics on Iraq
Re: proximity to CalgaryEd Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 15:10 (113915)
By the way, I did not realize we would be that close to Calgary. I will look up Gerry when there.
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/22/03 at 17:10 (113919)
I am confused - are you going to Banff or to Fairmont Hotsprings?
Both are nice - but about 2 or 3 hours apart and in different provinces (and also totally different experiences. One is a busy tourist town - one is a quiet resort in the middle of pretty much nowhere).
We usually go to Fairmont at Easter and in November - but I don't think we'll be going this year (planning a trip to Chicago in May).
I would love to give you some suggestions on things to do or see in both places when you clarify where you are going.
I doubt that you will experience any problems.
That said - if you are to stand in the lobby wearing an American flag as a toga, jumping up and down yelling about how justified you are in blowing up Saddam (the bastard) and his country - then you will probably receive a pretty negative response.
Some people here are very supportive of what the US has done, some are not. The anti-American sentiments seem to be stronger in the East (i.e. Quebec/Ontario).
I have similar reservations about how we may be treated when we are in the states in May.
In all - I would be most surprised if anyone behaved less than cordially to you simply because you're an American (especially in places like Fairmont or Banff that rely on the tourism industry) - BUT - if you decide to engage your waiter in conversation about the war...realize that you may not be met with enthusiastic support.
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/22/03 at 17:11 (113920)
I don't think it's okay to boo any national anthem. Ever.
Re: your vacation to Banff?carynz on 3/22/03 at 18:47 (113928)
well, that my friend is not in Banff, it is in Fairmont, BC. Another beautiful place to holiday and again they have a natural hot pool. Are you staying at the Fairmont Lodge or at one of the condos on or by the golf course. We looked into buying a condo on the golf course years ago when they first built but then decided not to. Kick ourselves now because of all the timeshare properties everywhere.
Anyways, have a great time.
Re: proximity to Calgarycarynz on 3/22/03 at 18:49 (113929)
actually since you will be in Fairmont and not Banff, you are about 2 1/2 - 3 hours by car away from Calgary still close enough to visit your friend though even if he wanted to drive to Banff and then you could meet up there for a visit, it would be a shame to be that close and not get to see him. How are you getting to Fairmont?
Re: Wendynjohn h on 3/22/03 at 18:54 (113930)
Wendy: I much agree with you. Seems to me I remember some idiot American Hockey crowd booing the Canadian national anthem a few years ago. In any crowd you generally have the 10% factor (idiots).In Europe they kill each other at soccer games so I guess we are lucky they just boo.
Re: Wendyncarynz on 3/22/03 at 18:54 (113931)
rah! rah! wendy.. we had a 10th anniversary party which was a toga party and everyone wore their best sheets and accessories! Ed and I were presented with a king size toga which joined us together for the entire evening, mine had a painted gold/leopard print teeny weeny bikini (which I have never worn in my life) complete with gold tassels on you know where, and Ed's side had a skimpy speedo style gold leopard swimsuit with loads of chest hair and a gold chain/medallion. What a hoot that party was, that was 12 years ago since we will celebrate 22 years of wedded bliss on April 3.
How are things with you, working and school and all that you are doing. We have just booked an Alaska cruise for our summer vacation since Ed is lucky enough to get 1 week off in July which is unheard of in the tour industry and especially here on the coast. So.. on the boat we go and up to Alaska, the kids are very excited to say the least and on the countdown. As of today, 3 months and 21 days to go.
Don't know when our next trip home will be but if you plan to come our way, let me know...
cheers for now,
Re: This brought tears to my eyesMason on 3/22/03 at 19:04 (113932)
'Posted by Ed Davis, DPM on 3/22/03 at 11:18 View Thread
John and Sharon:
There is room for disagreement on tactics but a couple of decades of wallowing in moral relativism have hobbled the ability of many to distinguish between right and wrong.
This post, and several others here that speak of or allude to the peace movement, smack of delusions of grandeur among those eager to jump on the war ('Iraqi liberation' -- as if that is all there is to it, and I don't mean oil, either) bandwagon. The clear implication here is that only hawkish types and those in favor of this invasion (and probably other wars to come) can distinguish right from wrong.
I don't doubt your sincerity in thinking that you are right and thinking that you alone know 'right.' And I don't doubt that _some_ good things will come of the current unilateral invasion; it's an easy win, which was obvious from the get-go (watch ahead, though, for consequences and further liberties taken on foreign soil, unforeseen by most on this board, as far as I can tell). It is amazing that you are able to see only two sides and believe yours is the only right one. The self-righteousness on this board is blatant and i would think it would embarrass the people here who otherwise seem intelligent.
You will probably never meet them face to face, because you seem able to tolerate only one narrow view, but the majority of people in the peace movement are Your Neighbors. They're your colleagues, they're your children, they're also your age, they're good citizens, they care about their country and their country's role in the world. They care about Americans, and they care about other people also, the world over. (Perhaps you haven't noticed that protests are worldwide; or, if you have, perhaps you think 'foreigners' who want alternatives to war and invasion are less human than your average American?) You seem victims to the tiny sensationalist bits about the peace movement that you see on television, victims of the very reporters you condemn when they don't suit you. The flexible standards here are countless.
To me the vision of most people who cry out for relatively peaceful solutions, and for further use of the mind in dealing with the _many_ less than desired regimes of the world, is far greater than many of those expressed on this board. This is a narrow-minded, sad place. At this point, I'm sorry I encountered it in my search for foot help.
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/22/03 at 20:09 (113941)
Hi Caryn - I am fine - just busy.
We are planning a trip to Chicago and Indianapolis in May (providing things don't go completly to hell in the world between now and then).
We will take time off in August (2 weeks) but I'm not sure if we'll make it out that far or not - maybe!!
Re: WendynBrianG on 3/22/03 at 21:02 (113944)
Indy in May? Are you an Indy 500 fan, going to the big race???? If your not a race fan, you could be going at the wrong time of the year!! :*)
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/22/03 at 21:37 (113948)
We've been there twice (Once in April once in October) and missed it both times. I am not a race car fan -but I'm sure hubby would love to go.
Hubby has a conference in Chicago, and I have family there and in Indianapolis.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesjohn h on 3/23/03 at 09:42 (113974)
the word 'unilateralism' has become much overused in recent months. nations now and have always acted in what they perceive as their best interest and not some dreamy idealistic vision of the future. The U.N. will not now or ever prevent the rise of dictators and have any effective control over them and has in fact dealt with little other than humanitarian projects. would the U.S, China, or Great Britian let Cameron or some other small third world country decide their fate with a vote? I do not think so. The U.N. is goint the way of the League of Nations and NATO which was formed to counter Russia and the Eastern Block is no longer relevant. The French are more than happy to see NATO disappear as they still have dreams of being a European power. In todays world why would not India which is approaching the largest nation in the world with a strong nuclear capabilities be kept off the Security Council and France a nation of 55 million people and no military force to speak of decide the fate of many important things.?
Re: proximity to CalgaryEd Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 11:42 (113988)
We are going to drive from the Seattle area where we live. Two aduts and 3 kids in a mini-van. We are taking along a bunch of kids tapes and a nine inch TV-VCR combo.
Re: WendynEd Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 11:44 (113989)
Fairmont Hot Springs is the destination, although we want to explore the surrounding area and was told that Banff was the largest city nearby. I have not done much planning nor studied the route yet.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesEd Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 11:50 (113990)
I realize that the antiwar group is a mixed group with different philosophies and agendas nevertheless I have heard very few concrete alternatives to our current action other than inspecting some more.
The 'narrow' view seems to be owned by those who demand 'peace' at any cost. Those who you call 'hawks' have accepted the diplomatic route for 12 years so that group appears to demonstrate more flexibility.
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/23/03 at 13:21 (114003)
Ed - are you staying at the resort? It's very nice. Your kids (and you) will love the hot pools. There's a pretty decent spa there as well. I consider Fairmont to be one of the most relaxing places that I've ever been.
Calgary would be the closest real City (about 3 hours away). Banff (about 2 hours away) can't really be considered a city. It's a neat place to go - but it's not very big (very crowded, very touristy). There is a small (and I mean small) town near Fairmont; Invermere. Between Invermere and Banff - there's pretty much just mountains.
April may be too early for golf - but there's a chance some of the courses could be open. There are lots of golf courses nearby.
Once you get closer to making plans - feel free to send me an email or drop me a note here if you want some suggestions.
Re: Faster than a speeding bullet !! :*)BrianG on 3/23/03 at 16:24 (114022)
I believe the 500 this year will be on Sunday, May 25th. If it's anything like the Daytona 500, there will be a lot of tickets available, right up to race day. Of course you may have to pay a premium, but not always. There are always a lot of people who have friends who bail out at the last minute. These are the best to buy from, as most only want the cost of a ticket back. One hint, if you do look for tickets. Get a track diagram of where the different seating areas are. Some seats are very limited as to what you can see. Generally the lower seats are cheapest, the best, most expensive tickets are up high.
Good luck if you do go,
PS: I did see the Indy cars race on the 1 mile track at New Hampshire Int'l Speedway once. At the end of the front stretch, there was a vapor trail coming off both sides of the back wing. I never saw anything like it, on the ground anyways :*)
Re: WendynSharon W on 3/23/03 at 16:32 (114026)
It's just as wrong for an American crowd to boo Canadians as vice-versa. I would object to that no matter what team was being booed.
Re: WendynSuzanne D on 3/23/03 at 16:42 (114029)
I won't let my students boo at any field day event or ballgame. I tell them they may cheer until they are hoarse, but they are not allowed to boo.
Sometimes parents do not set good examples for their children at junior pro basketball games at school or during the summer at the ball park. They get mad and scream and call names. Then they wonder why their children act the way they do!
Re: WendynBGCPed on 3/23/03 at 16:57 (114034)
Cant hold Wendy responsible for that. It was not real Canadians doing the booing. They were in Montreal remember. Those are just French peopl that got lost.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesSharon W on 3/23/03 at 17:04 (114035)
I never said I had wanted this war. As a matter of fact, I rather intensely didn't want it to happen.
But the fact that we now have troops fighting and being killed or tortured makes me remember how those who fought in Viet Nam were treated, and I am saddened and sickened to see the same thing happening to these young men and women now.
Those who protest war in Iraq absolutely DO have the right, under freedom of speech, to continue their protests, so long as they don't violate the law. There is no question of that.
But having the legal and political right to do something, DOESN'T make it right.
Re: This brought tears to my eyesBGCPed on 3/23/03 at 17:08 (114037)
Mason, thanks for bring a ray of sunshine and hope to us narrow minded conservatives. Your absence will be mourned by many, shouldnt be a dry eye in the house. Please come back,I think it is funny to read ultra left wing extremism points of view. Just think over in Iraq you could get fed feet first into a plastic grinder, that would deal with pf. I heard they call it the Saddamotron
Re: Wendynwendyn on 3/23/03 at 17:18 (114038)
Booing an anthem is bad form and poor manners regardless of the reason.
As a matter of point - the Star Spangled Banner was cheered at the last two hockey games.
Re: Go to the 500marie on 3/23/03 at 22:26 (114074)
I lived in Indy for 10 years. Never went the race and I regret it. I have been to the time trials. The cars are unbelievable...you will love it.
Re: Wendynmarie on 3/23/03 at 22:32 (114076)
Oh Suzanne you are so right. That kind of behavior sets such a poor example for our younger kids.
Re: WendynEd Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:18 (114094)
Thanks. Yes, we are staying at the resort. We will probably stick with 'kid friendly' activities.