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to mason

Posted by pala on 3/22/03 at 20:42 (113943)

mason, there were liberals and independent thinkers on this board just before you started posting. they all left in utter disgust about just the issues you raised. most of them had been here a long time and had given lovely support to the right wingers here who attacked them much more viciously than they have treated you. now they sit here all alone and agree with each other. or drive away the great folks like yourself. or pray to whatever diety oversees warmonger hypocrites.

Re: 72%

Steve P on 3/22/03 at 21:42 (113949)

72% of Americans support the liberation of Iraq.

.....all right wingers, don't you know!

Re: 72%

Mason on 3/22/03 at 23:05 (113954)

The selective wording behind polls saying 72% would shock you, if you had any idea how to assess that wording objectively. (Perhaps you do, but I haven't seen that here. I see sound bites and quick conclusions meant to sweep other views off the table quickly and efficiently. And with the exception of a very few, people here are buying it. It's dismaying.)

Do you carefully scrutinize the wording of the common either/or polling? Do you look for bias and make yourself aware of how and when it occurs? It's usually there - sometimes on the conservative side, sometimes on the liberal. It occurs on both sides, but from reading this forum one would think this country is a playground for liberals only. Hardly. If it were, do you think our country would, under mostly false pretenses, be invading and taking over another country? Even three years ago, the American people would have been shocked by what is happening and what is to come. 9/11 changed all that, and their fear is being taken advantage of.

Assume your percentage is accurate: Do you think the 72% is entirely full of educated, financially comfortable, and far-thinking people who can afford to forgo the understandable search for crutches in an uncertain time? I've met many of them, and plenty do not fit that description. Do you think the other 28% are dunderheads? You probably do. They are not. Neither are the much larger percentage of the world population who are not pleased - in fact are deeply disillusioned - to see a country they in many ways rightly admired for so long invading another country against their will, including, believe it or not, the will of some perfectly decent Iraqi citizens (the numbers are not known yet, and if you think you know them ahead of time, you would do well to get humble and not jump to conclusions - wait and see). And the vast amount of people unhappy with this invasion know that it's only the beginning manifestation of a dangerous attitude that X percentage of people here are blind to.

I understand it. We the people want very much to believe in our United States. So do I, and I still do in many ways - but, right now, not enough. If you want to believe in your country so much, as I do, work to make it live up to what you and the rest of the world hope so dearly that it can and will be. Don't shut your minds down in the face of simple and arrogant patter, which is so much easier than questioning and analyzing and looking ahead to consequences, not to mention taking the real people in the other 150+ countries seriously. They may not all have fancy cars, but you might actually learn something better about life from some of them. Don't write them off.

Self-satisfaction, blatantly here for all to see, leads to dead ends. No brand new thinking here.

Take solace in numbers if you feel you must, but there are larger issues at stake, and they haven't even been considered by most on this board. I hold nothing against this board. It has appeared to be a place where people in pain give each other education and comfort, and that's a good thing. It's a great thing, in fact.

Regarding the current administration and its invasion of Iraq this board doesn't reflect even your most optimistic general American percentages, though, and certainly not nearly worldwide percentages. It's way over at the far end of the scale, about to fall off the table. I'm fairly new here, although I've been reading for a quite a while, and this board looks about 98% hawk (rally around the flag no matter what , never question, never think that you as a citizen are responsible for holding your country to what the flag is supposed to represent) and about 2% let's-not-absorb-or-let-stand-any-other-outlooks.

Just walking down the typical American Main Street is much more heartening. At least one can find true discussion of the real issues going on, and not just a pat-each-other-on-the-back party. I don't mean any harm. I just don't see much true talking going on, true thinking, true exchanges, and intelligent looking ahead.

Good luck to you all.

Re: to mason

Mason on 3/22/03 at 23:26 (113958)

I'm pleased to hear that it hasn't always been like this. Thank you for letting me know.

Re: to mason

pala on 3/23/03 at 00:03 (113959)

your welcome mason. i was never going to post here again but it was difficult for me to see you valiently trying to express well thought out posts that were in good faith, and reflected an actual thinking process. i have seen so many people attempt this here and get 'right wing harrassed ' off the board. so i thought i'd just wave howdy to you and say you are not totally alone here.

Re: to mason

Mason on 3/23/03 at 00:25 (113961)

I do appreciate that. It must be a rather unpleasant time here for the kind of person you sound like. After one especially bad experience, I don't put my e-mail address on forums anymore. But if you'd like to let me know your address (inserting asterisks or something to throw off the spammers), I'd like to send you an e-mail. Just something to consider, no pressure.

Re: to mason

pala on 3/23/03 at 01:13 (113962)

well it would be unpleasant if i were 'here' the way you are here. i'm really just here to be supportive to a voice of reason and decency: yours. while i would like to e mail with you i am also hesitant to put my email on this forum.

Re: to mason

Mason on 3/23/03 at 01:24 (113963)

I understand. I did appreciate your voice tonight. Life throws many disappointments at all of us, but I have invested little here (thankfully) and the disappointment is very small. Thanks again, and I wish you great luck with your feet and with finding reasonable voices in your own world away from here.

Re: to mason

pala on 3/23/03 at 01:26 (113964)

ditto mason. it was really unexpected to have a pleasant interaction on this board. thank you. good night.

Re: Now 76% !!!

Steve P on 3/23/03 at 10:32 (113982)

Hi Mason & Pala --

New poll out this morning says 76% approve & 20% disapprove of the war to liberate Iraq.

If you have questions about the wording, etc., go to the CBS website & read the article.

The majority of Americans understand the difference between right & wrong & understand the need to defeat evil. And that is what we will do. By mid-April there will be an American tank on every intersection of Baghdad.

God bless our country. As Harry Truman used to say....Trust the American people....they will always get it right.

Re: to mason

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 11:59 (113992)

Pala:

I think that the electronic record, available for all to read here, demonstrates that those taking the 'conservative' point of view repeatedly attempted to present information and engage in factual yet lively debate while a few individuals (not all) taking the anti-war view repeatedly engaged in vicious personal attacks and name calling.

I would hope that you have taken the time to read the last week or so of posting on this board. You will note that while much was debated and that while the 'sides' had many areas of disagreement, the debate was civil and friendly. I am not asking you to agree on any issues but could you please make an effort to try to understand the differences in the nature of the current debate and the manner of debate that occurred previously.
Ed

Re: Now 76% !!!

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 12:39 (114001)

Here are the figures for the United Kingdom:
story behind the story...

Posted Sunday, March 23, 2003, 10:00 AM EST
Poll: British Now Support Blair

Support for war in Iraq has turned around sharply, a new poll for the London Times reveals. It shows that 56 percent of people now think America and Britain are right to take military action, with 36 percent opposed.

This is a mirror image of the position before the war, when a similar YouGov poll showed 36 percent backing for military action and 57 percent opposed.

Support for the war is stronger among men than women, but is shared across all age groups. Labour and Conservative supporters back the war by two to one. Only Liberal Democrat supporters are opposed, in line with their party's official position.

The war is also seen as being of benefit to the world. By 45 pecent to 35 percent, people believe it will make the world a safer place.

The expectation is that the war itself will be short. More than two-thirds, 70 percent, say it will be a brief campaign, although 39 percent think there will be heavy casualties.

Tony Blair's conduct of the crisis is gaining support, following initial public opposition. More than a third, 36 percent, say their admiration for the prime minister has increased because of the way he has handled the Iraq crisis in recent weeks, against 29 percent who say their respect has diminished.

The Need for War

Most of those surveyed, 59 percent, say they saw the prime minister's address to the nation on Thursday evening, when he set out his reasons for going to war. By three to one, 27 percent to 8 percent, people said they were more convinced of the need for war by the broadcast, with the rest unmoved by it.

People are also unhappy about the wave of protests by schoolchildren in the past few days. Fewer than a quarter, 24 percent, believe pupils have a right to protest at any time. Nearly two-thirds, 63 percent, think teachers should have kept the children in school.

The political threat to Blair appears to be fading, with little enthusiasm for any of his potential successors in the cabinet. Gordon Brown tops the list, with 24 percent support in the event of Blair stepping down, followed by Robin Cook, 9 percent, Jack Straw, 7 percent, and David Blunkett, 6 percent. Most favoured none of the prime minister's likely replacements as leader.

Blair is seen as more sincere than George Bush over rebuilding Iraq and pursuing the Israel-Palestine peace process. By 72 percent to 19 percent, people say he is sincere about reconstructing Iraq for its people, against 51 percent to 35 percent for the U.S. president. On finding a solution to the Israel-Palestine problem, people say by 68 percent to 18 percent that Blair will push for peace, compared with 41 percent to 39 percent who think Bush will.

Asked whether Bush will pursue war against other countries such as North Korea after Iraq, most people think he will. By nearly two to one, 53 percent to 27 percent, they predict the U.S. will target other nations believed to pose a threat.

Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:

Saddam Hussein/Iraq

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Pravda Attacks NewsMax's 'Boycott France' Campaign

Poll: British Now Support Blair

Re: to mason

pala on 3/23/03 at 14:08 (114007)

why ed, there are people here who are doves who forgive endless rotten attacks upon them, repeatedly, for no particular reason. oh wait a minute. theyre all gone. mostly because of you. so all that's left here is the dove who doesn't forget or forgive. live with this ed. you created it. i was civil, i did reason. so did nancy s, nancy n, julie et al. where are they ed? now that the doves are purged, do you think that this will be a warm and cozy nest for hawks? lotsa luck.

Re: to mason

BGCPED on 3/23/03 at 15:22 (114018)

I like the condescending attitude and sly comments that allude to lefties being well thought out. Its funny and hipocritical at the same time. I also find humor in the media, they keep showing so-called peace protesters.Many are just socialist idiots. It is fun to watch them put a microphone in front of these idiots and listen to them repeat ignorant phrases like 'Ummm uhhhh bush is like all hes like all doing this cause his daddy wants him to'

The bongo drums and lack of personal cleanliness are rather amusing as well. I saw a bunch of 'peace' protesters spray painting building, breaking down barriers and assaulting police. 'hey bro, when we get done burning this joint lets go to the peace rally and break some stuff and spit on cops'

Re: Now 76% !!!

BGCPED on 3/23/03 at 15:26 (114019)

There you guys go letting facts spoil a good debate. I was gone for 2 days, now I am back to join Dr Ed, John,and Steve in keeping this board safe for all conservatives.

Re: Now 76% !!!

pala on 3/23/03 at 16:02 (114020)

are these last two posts by bgc what you had in mind when you admonished me for being uncivil ed?

hey bgc, i certainly appreciate the honesty of this last post. finally, a breath of fresh air. 'keeping this board safe for all conservatives'. every once in while you put a big orthotic device right in your mouth. ed's too smart and smarmy for that.

by the way, you misspelled hypocritical. also, since i'm the one who has bandied that word about all day, could you have the decency to look in a thesaurus? and, as usual, your political analysis is brilliant.

Re: to mason

john h on 3/23/03 at 16:22 (114021)

I may have missed it on TV but there was an American Iraqui march scheduled in front of the Lincoln Memorial yesterday. The leader was on TV last night. I wonder why we do not see that on TV. We had a big town gathering in a town near Little Rock with nearly everyone in town showing up to support our President and the troops. You never see these on TV. If we have 70+% of Americans supporting the war against Iraq why do we have about 90% coverage of the protesters against the war. I just want balanced coverage. Some of the protesters in Washington, D.C. wanted to begin their protest at the Vietnam Memorial. Now that was real smart. Thank goodness the Parks Department put a stop to that. I wonder if any protesters will have any protest about the grusome atrocities committed against our captured prisoners shown on tv today? How can you protest when you see American bodies on Iraqi TV and the obvious violations of the Geneva Convention.

Re: Now 76% !!!

john h on 3/23/03 at 16:31 (114024)

The bottom line Pala is you are in the minority when it comes to Iraq and it is not about to change. The war has started and it will not end until we are in Bagdad. You are not going to change any minds and we are not going to change your mind. You see a glass half empty we see a glass half full. It would be interesting to know how we all arrived at our current conclusions. I would guess for me it is that I am old enough to remember Hitler first hand and American first hand in the early 40's. It gives you a lot different perspective. Perhaps you are a 60's lady and your perceptions are driven by the Vietnam experience.

Re: statistics ?????

marie on 3/23/03 at 21:25 (114064)

We all know statistics can be adjusted to suit the needs of the purpose.

In other words they mean nothing unless you have the process used to come up with the stats. How many of you here participated in the poll?
Not me. In fact I haven't met a single person who was polled.
Don't you find that a tiny bit odd.

marie

Re: Now 76% !!!

marie on 3/23/03 at 21:42 (114067)

Brian be careful or I will post this site on every liberal forum I can. Their are millions around the world who'd love to mess with your minds. This is an open forum....you don't own it. In case you forgot this is THE WORLD WIDE WEB. Once again I will never accept your attitude on censorship. Every American has the right to free speech. I will never leave this board just to irritate you forever. Peace to you whether you like it or not! Be nice!

This is a Democracy love it or leave it!

Re: pala's poison pen

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 22:38 (114077)

Pala:
I would have liked to have said 'welcome back.' Unfortunately, you have learned very little as you re-enter the discussion with your poison pen, attacking others as 'hypocrites' and then going into your typical rant of falsehoods.

If you agreed with me on every issue, I would still be saying the same thing to you. It does not matter what part of the political spectrum you come from. I would not approve if a conservative poster engaged in the character assasination techniques which are the cornerstone of your debating style.
Ed

Re: pala's poison pen

pala on 3/23/03 at 22:51 (114080)

i learned my debating style from you ed. so thank you. i'll take that post as a complement. and i am thrilled to be here if a right wing extremist is not. you made my day.

Re: pala's poison pen

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 22:55 (114082)

Pala:
You have learned nothing from me, nor anyone else on this board. Your poison is your own. You really have no desire to debate or discuss things so why do you even come to this or any similar board?
Ed

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:05 (114085)

and furthermore, thank you for your personal attention. all those lap dogs of war yapping at my heels all day got tiring. it is nice to be addressed by the big dog. you are the extreme of the extremists. i was looking forward to hearing from you all day.

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:08 (114086)

ed you turned what was once a beautiful and supportive board into a cesspool when you purged all the liberals and independents from ths board. you created this . live with it, war is hell.

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:13 (114088)

Pala:
If I am an 'extremist,' what would you call about 100,000,000 Americans to the political right of me? Perhaps we don't want to know.
Ed

Re: pala's poison pen

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:14 (114089)

i come here because it annoys you ed. ahhhh. you made my evening. stop, really ed, i'm gonna plotz from prom pleasure.

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:15 (114090)

Pala:
You should have gotten a job for the Iraqi information ministry based on your talent for bending the truth. The cesspool is a manifestation of your continual insults and degradation of all who do not agree with you.
Why did you come back here?
Ed

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:17 (114091)

i just told you why ed. duh

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:19 (114095)

ed, could you please post yet another article from the right wing publications? my subscription to 'The Right Wing Lunatic Fringe' just ran out. we all enjoy those so much

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:21 (114096)

Pala:
The articles have come from a variety of sources. Unfortunatley, you consider anyone to the right of V.I. Lenin to be a 'right wing lunatic.'
Ed

Re: pala's poison pen

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:22 (114098)

Pala:
You are truly sick.
Ed

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:24 (114099)

i take it that is not a medical opinion, doctor?

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:32 (114101)

Pala:
Definitely not.
Ed

Re: ed's sanctimonious hypocrisy

pala on 3/23/03 at 23:36 (114103)

and you, ed, think anyone to the left of ghengis khan to be communist anti christ.

Re: Pala's poison pen

Ed Davis, DPM on 3/23/03 at 23:51 (114108)

Pala:
Hello --earth to Pala. I was not the one labelling others as extremists.
I don't really think you are an extremist, just an individual with a warped mind, no sense of justice, no morals nor ethics.

Your comments place you out of touch with better than 99% of the American public. Of course, you could not fathom that anyone but yourself could be wrong?
Ed

Re: For Brian

marie on 3/24/03 at 10:41 (114190)

I am sorry if I over reacted to your comment. I was also trying to be a bit humorous with my post and maybe a little sarcastic as well. It appears we are both guilty of not getting our humor across in our posts. Your post came across as a threat to all those who have different beliefs from yours.

And I hope I don't irritate you too much cause I really enjoy our conversations.

I still haven't found anything about your Superintendent on the internet. There are good superintendents out there.

marie

Re: For Brian

BGCPed on 3/24/03 at 11:34 (114211)

No problem at all. I think maybe the local paper which has a search engine may have it. Try http://www.theoaklandpress.com and do a search on dr james redman (redmon)sp? they had a list of his expense account, pay and lots of other things. It was very eye opening