2 days post-eswt/ pretty sorePosted by rekha s on 3/29/03 at 12:47 (114886)
had ossatron done on thur 3/27. to save $$ for anesthesiologist, my podiatrist did local block on both sides of ankle.... 1st day the anesthesia wore off I had intense soreness in the treated heel and in the outer ankle area where pod injected anesthesia....could this be due to the anesthesia? because the ankle area wasnt shocked. Today, there is still soreness, although not as much as yesterday.....how long should this soreness last? I didnt have this soreness when treateed previously by the orby....no anesthesia either...so this feels very different....
currently I am using crutches to get around and pod put me in cam walker boot for a week..(also new) he says this stretches the achilles tendon to promote healing...
Any input from others appreciated...thanks
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty soreDr. Z on 3/29/03 at 13:48 (114889)
yes this could be from the local anesthesia. If you search the ESWT posts you will probaby find that there are some people that do have pain after ESWT with the Ossatron. This should resolve with time. Rest, heat, boot cast are very good treatment to help resolve this. Sometime you may need to be placed on nsaid and or medrol dose packs
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty sorerekha s on 3/30/03 at 13:40 (114928)
ok, I do think that the anesthesia did cause soreness for some reason...the outer ankle is very sore....they had to administer more block in the sural nerve cause I could feel intense pain while under the ossatron for 6 min.
Any other patients who have had pain post ossatron please post any experiences....or any advice...I will see my dr this tues.
I am trying to walk a little today...but not much....
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty soreDr. Z on 3/30/03 at 14:51 (114931)
What you are experiencing does happen with the ossatron. Time and the treatment advice I gave you is the only thing to help clear this up. This may not get better for six weeks
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty sorePauline on 3/30/03 at 18:52 (114940)
Dr. Reid who used the Ossatron used to post quite often. Would you be willing to ask her to return to update and provide us with her experiences using the Ossatron to date. She's been using it for aprox 2 years I think.
It would be an asset to have her or any doctor that is actually using that machine provide their insight and information on the Ossatron since they began using it.
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty soreDr. Z on 3/30/03 at 19:17 (114943)
I don't know how to contact her. There are reports by Healthronics ( Dr.
Ogden) who did a report : 1000 cases at the last International Society for Shockwave Therapy. I am sure you can contact either Dr. Odgen or Heatlthronic and they may send you this information, unless this is going to be published.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !BrianG on 3/30/03 at 21:49 (114955)
You took the BIG old OssaTron with only a local!!! You are my new hero, surely an Iron Woman :*)
Are you the 1st? I haven't read about anyone else having it done without anesthesia....
Don't forget to ask for pain meds, if necessary!
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Dr. Z on 3/30/03 at 22:13 (114957)
She is tough. The original FDA study for the ossatron was a straight local. The Ossatron group from this web site was under a local.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !rekha on 3/31/03 at 00:07 (114958)
Yes, I opted for local....because that way I would save $600 for an anesthesiologist...( without anesthesia it cost me $3000). When they started the ossatron, I could feel intense pain in my outer ankle resonating all the way up my foot so the pod injected more block into my sural nerve....it took many shots to get foot numb...maybe that is why my outer ankle is so sore....
Previously I had it done on orby...no anesthesia...but it with low intensity shockwaves...not as intense as the ossatron.... when I woke up the next morning after ossatron...my heel was soooo sore....this threw me completely off...bcuz with orby...foot pain was no different after the 3 times I got it done....
I dont know If I qualify for an Iron woman...but I guess 5 years of PF has given me more tolerance for pain...
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 3/31/03 at 09:52 (114978)
Dr. Z: How does one get around the FDA protocol for the Ossatron and use a local? I would suspect the Doctor is exposing himself to lawsuits by not following the FDA protocol. Am I wrong on this issue?
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty sorejohn h on 3/31/03 at 10:01 (114980)
I would not be surprised that anyone would be sore 2 days post ESWT with a high energy machine. Even with the EPOS there is a little bit of sorness a day or two after treatment. It is a different pain than the PF and rapidly dissapates.
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty sorejohn h on 3/31/03 at 10:03 (114981)
Sunny with Bayshore may have some information on studies using the Ossatron by one of their consulting Doctors. Sunny seems to be the Guru of studies when it comes to ESWT.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 3/31/03 at 10:46 (114986)
Maybe one of our doctor can answer this question. Often times surgery can be performed on the arm or hand with blockage done to that limb. If this is possible should it not be just as easy to numb the foot for Ossatron treatment?
Surely the surgical pain has to be the same if not greater than that of the Ossatron unless perhaps there is bone pain also involved because of the strength of the waves.
Something about it must be different.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 3/31/03 at 17:57 (115048)
Pauline I have had blocks in my hand on two occasions for repairing compound fractures to my fingers. I also had a spinal block for surgery to my leg. To much basketball.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Dr. Z on 3/31/03 at 20:12 (115062)
The ossatron shockwaves are directed from the plantar surface of the foot. This makes it hard to avoid hitting the heel bone. A local Block may not avoid the pain from hitting the bone. This is one of the advantage when using the dornier/ultrasound when comparing the ossatron with the dornier. The dornier shoots from the side and you can see the plantar fascia at all times
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !BrianG on 3/31/03 at 20:14 (115063)
Hey John, I'm not so sure that bragging about a couple little finger boo-boo's, to a woman (Pauline) who probably had children, will win any pain tollerance awards! Hahahaa
PS: I still think Rehka is an Iron Woman !!
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Ed Davis, DPM on 3/31/03 at 20:35 (115069)
I don't think that the FDA protocol specifies the type of anesthesia to be used.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 3/31/03 at 21:08 (115072)
So strength of the shockwave hitting bone is what they are trying to guard against. What about Bunion surgery? Is that done with locals or is the person put to sleep? Wouldn't this be about the same degree of pain as shockwaves hitting bone?
What would be the difference in pain level and duration of procedures if only locals were used?
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Dr. Z on 3/31/03 at 22:37 (115084)
Locals with IV sedation to help reduce the pain of the needles. I have just used a local many many times. The bunion and the ESWT aren't the same, different type of procedures
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 4/01/03 at 09:46 (115092)
I realize bunion surgery and ESWT are two different type of proceedures.
What I am trying to compare is the degree of pain involved in each procedure. Pain to bone during bunion surgery and pain to bone from shockwaves of ESWT using the Ossatron if general anaesthesia or conscience sedation is not used.
When you suggest that you've used locals many many times is this in relationship to your delivering shockwaves with the Ossatron?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if the pain in bunion surgery is similar if not greater than any pain possibly caused by shockwaves during an Ossatron treatment, why must general anaesthesia be administered when locals with the use of sedation until the foot block is administered might be enough?
I strictly talking about pain and the Ossatron as it might relate to actual bone pain from a procedure like bunion surgery. No Dornier here.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 4/01/03 at 11:06 (115096)
Dr. Ed: If FDA does not require a general anesthesia it seems Doctors might be better served to perform the procedure in office and save the patient thousands of dollars. Are you positive the FDA does not require a general anesthesia?
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 4/01/03 at 11:14 (115097)
Brian you are a turkey. My finger boo boos required me to look at the bone protruding through my skin. My other finger boo boo was just two years ago when my metal storm window fell and caught the end of three fingers ripping out all three finger nails and breaking all three finger tips. Yes I am glad women have babies and not men. Of course it is acceptable for women to scream and cry if necessary but us macho men must act like it does not hurt. There was a TV program some years ago where an Army Colonel who had a severe leg injury in Vietnam. The field hospital did not have any type of general or local anaethesia and they filmed him having his leg amputated above the knee with no anaethersia. He cursed a whole lot but did not scream. I would have preferred to be knocked out with a bat.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Dr. Z on 4/01/03 at 19:57 (115124)
The ossatron is too big to bring into the office. The company does the procedure in an ASC in hopes of getting a larger amount of $$$$$ This goes for all companies not just healthronics
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !BrianG on 4/01/03 at 20:47 (115130)
I think I'll pass on that bat! When you woke up, you'd have 2 hurting areas :*) There was a lot of pure heroine over there John, I would have sent a grunt to score me some!
BrianG, the turkey hahaaa
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 4/02/03 at 10:00 (115152)
But this doesn't speak to the issue of the possible bone pain that is involved and whether a general anesthesia in necessary.
Dr. Ed. if your using the Ossatron could you compare bone pain from say bunion surgery with the possibility of bone pain that might be produced during an Ossatron treatment. How do you feel about using a total foot block instead and who is regulating what is being used?
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty soreMahatmelissama on 4/02/03 at 11:48 (115160)
Did I tell you...
I am seeing Dr. K this Friday in Pleasanton because of YOU (thank you for the fyi on him!) I live in SJ.
Did the procedure hurt? Did the local hurt? I am not sure I could wear a cam thing...I can't even handle the night splints.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 4/02/03 at 12:23 (115166)
Pauline: Since we all react to pain differently I guess it is hard to make a scientific judgement to compare bone pain with bunion surgery because of so many variables. For me the pain of the Orby (high energy) even without anathestic was no worse than a flu shot. Others who I watched said they could not stand it and opted for a foot block after a few pulses. If you have pain after an Ossatron treatment how do you even know it is bone pain as opposed to some other type of pain? My pain the day after an Epos treatment was just my foot was a little sore. The next day the soreness was gone. I had a shot with the Epos but would have been willing to try it without any shot just to see what gives. If after about 10 shock waves with the Orby my foot was somewhat numb then why would not the same effect take place with the Epos? You never know until you try. Worst thing that could happen is that I would tell the Doctor this hurts lets go with a shot. Another consideration is with the Ossatron is if you have a 200 lb man with a big foot vs a 100 lb woman with a little foot then the shockwave hitting the bone will be very different.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 4/02/03 at 13:35 (115172)
I'm not talking about 'the day after pain'. I'm talking about the pain that would be generated by a surgical procedure on bone or the Ossatron producing shockwave that hits bone.
I'm trying to relate bone pain to bone pain caused by two different procedures.
I think in one of Rehka posts she said she had low power treatment with the Orby with her earlier treatments. At least I think that what I remember reading. I wonder when you speak about your high power treatment were you anywhere near the power the Ossatron is producing. I'm not so sure that you were.
No one that I know has gone through an Ossatron treatment without anesthesia and it is recommended if not protocol. I don't think they do this just for 'chickens'.
While I agree with you that people experience pain differently, I'm pretty sure hitting bone with shockwaves would be felt and would be more than just uncomfortable. I doubt repetitive hits on bone would cause it to become a deadened area without the patient feeling every hit.
Bone pain is much different than tissue pain.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 4/02/03 at 13:44 (115175)
Even ultrasound waves hitting bone produce a good amount of pain that's why they keep moving it around the injured site rather than hold it in one place.
Holding it in one place where the waves hit bone could actually injure the bone and cause burning.
Imagine the Ossatron shockwaves now hitting the same area of bone over and over. Makes you hurt just to think about it let alone experience it.
I personally think you'd pass out before you'd say it went numb.
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !john h on 4/02/03 at 18:13 (115208)
Dr Z always said the Orby was a high power machine if you want to set it on high power. The Orby is a spark gap machine and I think the Ossatron is a hydraulic machine if my memory is working. I very well remember Judy about coming off the table when one of the Orby waves hit and I think she said she felt it in her bone. Since I had no shots with the orby I can assure you the shock wave is significant and you certainly get the feeling it is being transmitted to the bone. Every once in a while for what ever reason the Orby would put out an extra high energy wave. There have been many discussions on where the Orby is a high energy machine. Seens that Dr. Z had the literature to show its power to be in the high energy range. It felt more powerful to me than the Epos. The Epos is much quieter so one might tend to think it was not as powerful as the very loud Orby..
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Pauline on 4/02/03 at 19:30 (115214)
Others have reported the Ossatron to be noisy too.
Re: to Mahatmelissamarekha s on 4/03/03 at 01:01 (115247)
your welcome...you will really like Dr Klooster...I just saw him yesterday as my follow up on eswt...and I mentioned you to him...I told him I had entered his information on this website's database of treatment locations..and that he should be getting some more calls inquiring about treatment....I found him thru calling around...because I was sure there has got to be at least one dr in the SF Bay area that does the eswt.
Dr Klooster has a very pleasant demeanor...you will like him...I hope he can help you with your pain...believe me, I have been there.....my pain this time was not as severe...but back in 1999-2000, it was unbearable...The procedure did hurt at first...until the dr injected more block...local didnt hurt as much....as I expected. I didnt wear the cam walker for long, since it was aggrevating my tingling...
I live in Fremont. Feel free to email me (email removed) with any questions
To Pauline...Dr Klooster did move the ossatron all around my heel, not just in one location....
Re: 2 days post-eswt/ pretty soreLynn S on 4/03/03 at 20:51 (115362)
I've had treatment with the Ossatron for both feet and actually twice on one foot. Each time I can say that there was a some discomfort which lasted a few days. My physician gave me a prescription for pain medication prior to the procedure 'just in case' (which I didn't need to use). However, I have talked to others who seemed to have more pain and did use pain medication for a short period of time. Lynn
Re: Our very own HS.com Iron Woman, WOW !Dr. Z on 4/04/03 at 17:39 (115435)
ESWT avoids bone. It is used to treat the plantar fascia. No one points the sound directly into the bone when treating the inflamed fascia. Ultrasound guilded ESWT is very valuatble to completely avoid the bone . A local anesthetic ankle block does very well. In the the patient that is nervous,oral sedation is very helpful. IV/general anesthesia isn't required by the FDA or used by many ESWT treating doctors. Our group has done over one thousand cases with a local anesthetic By treating the fascia from the bottom without ultrasound guildance you have a very high chance of hitting the bone. Burning the bone isn't a risk or complication with ESWT. It is with physical therapy ultrasound treatments that there is a risk of burning the bone.