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delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Posted by Ellen J. on 4/15/03 at 11:57 (116177)

Hi,
When we use the feet more than normal, does anyone know if delayed onset muscle soreness feels different from fascia irritation? Sometimes after using my feet a bit more, my feet are sore for just a couple of days and then the pain goes away. How do we know if that is 'good' pain from muscle use, rather than 'bad' pain from an irritated fascia? Does the pain feel different with one or the other? I want to stregthen the feet but I don't want to irritate the fascia even more by doing so.
Ellen

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Bev on 4/15/03 at 12:34 (116182)

Great question, Ellen, I was wondering the very same thing.Sometimes I think that I rest too much and I should be doing more, then when I do, my feet hurt more. However, is it a good thing to use them or not? I don't want to just sit and die, even though some days I feel as if that would be okay too( at least I would be out of pain). I need to be up doing things even if I do hurt, don't I?

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Ellen J. on 4/15/03 at 14:54 (116206)

Hi Bev,
It sounds like your feet hurt alot, like mine did at one time. Have they been hurting bad for a long time, or has it 'only' been a short time? I know, any amount of time is too long, isn't it? When the feet are in the bad stage, it is important to rest them until they heal up enough to be able to withstand more activity. I've been thinking long and hard about all of that and I compare it to spraining your ankle and walking on it too soon, and as a result you might re-sprain it. At least, that's my theory.
I hope you can get your feet back in action soon,
Ellen

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Suzanne D on 4/15/03 at 15:12 (116209)

That's a good question, Ellen. I don't know what the proper answer would be, but for me it seems that when I have done more walking than I am used to, I get stiff and sore feet. But that is different from the PF pain which for me was mostly in the arch area ~ that sharp hurt with every step that makes you limp and walk on the side of your foot to try to get relief. They were distinctly different kinds of hurt for me. I don't have much of that kind of pain now, thankfully, but sometimes I feel a twinge of it and try to make sure and stretch more and rest. I do have stiff and sometimes sore feet often, though.

Ellen, have you and Bev tried taping your feet? You have probably mentioned this before, and I am sorry that I can't remember. When my PF pain was the worst, I would get the most relief from taping and then wearing SAS shoes with Birk inserts or Birk Arizona sandals at home (which is what I still do ~ without the taping as well as also wearing Birk Annapolis shoes, too). Just the shoes and inserts without the taping did not help as much when I was in constant pain. I taped for about 3 - 4 months using the method Scott demonstrates in Part 2 of the Heel Pain Book.

Good luck to both of you!
Suzanne :)

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Ellen J. on 4/15/03 at 18:33 (116225)

I think you are right, Suzanne.
The P.F. pain seems sharper, more like a pulled muscle. Luckily, I am at a very low pain level at this point--finally. However, the pain comes back easily and so am still trying to figure out what my feet really want. I have tried pretty much everything to get over the final hump, which would allow me to exercise again. Birks have too much arch support for me and I've tried a few of them. Taping didn't seem to help either.
What you were saying about the stiff feeling from too much exercise makes sense, and I'll use that as a guide to try and differentiate between that and inflaming my feet from 'being dumb', which I do pretty often! (:(PIPE)
Ellen

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Bev on 4/15/03 at 18:56 (116228)

Hi Ellen, Yes, I guess I am a big baby,:(( I have been in a lot of pain for over a year. I had to quit work due to the pain. Being a nurse, on my feet all day for so many years did me in, and I was not able to keep working due to the pain. So many doctors , zillions of tests, meds, treatments,PT, and still in the same amount of pain and misery. I go to another podiatrist as soon as the appointment can be made , another doctor, in another town, another 'specialist'. I am a hopeless case. We saw a movie many years ago with Jane Fonda (when she was young too) called 'They Shoot Horses Don't They?' , and I keep telling my hubby that , when horses fall apart that is what they do to them :> Oh, well, hopefully there will be light at the end of the tunnel , right :-/ . Here's hoping that you are having a better day and you are not having =:) feet. Bev

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Ellen J. on 4/16/03 at 09:07 (116274)

Hi Bev,
I have a friend who is in the same boat as you are and she's a doctor. She has been to many docs with no help and even had ESWT and that didn't help her either. I think her dilemma is that due to her job, she had to be on her feet and wasn't able to give her feet time to heal up. I have not talked to her in awhile and I plan to call her and see how she's doing. If she has found anything that has worked for her I'll post it here. Sorry you are hurting so much--it must be exhausting to be in pain for so long.
Ellen

Re: Ellen

Kathy G on 4/16/03 at 11:48 (116296)

Ellen,

I should remember or do a search but I have a lousy memory and I'm lazy so I'll ask. How long since you were diagnosed with PF? I seem to remember you were a runner, right?

It seems as though you've reached that lovely 'trial and error' stage of PF where you have to try things to see how your feet react. The problem is that if you do something that really aggravates them, then it'll take a few days for them get back to feeling relatively normal so that you can try something else. John H is our resident expert on exercise. He's run the gamut with his feet and as a former marathoner, has arrived at an exercise regime that seems to work for him. Perhaps he would have some tips for you. As for me, I am thankful if I can do the food shopping wihtout my feet hurting but I am much better than I was a couple of years ago and hope springs eternal! I do have other over-riding conditions like possible rheumatoid arthritis so you can't use me as an indicator.

Maybe John will be able to give you some tips about how he eventually got into his present exercise program. I know that he sometimes has days where he can't do them because of pain.

This is a truly frustrating condition and I can 'hear' your frustration! Hang in there! And, I will find out what exercises my husband does. I know that they aren't weight bearing. He sits on a chair and brings his foot up and does something (?) with it. I'll find out for you.

Re: Re exercise and P.F.

Ellen J. on 4/16/03 at 13:09 (116305)

Hi Kathy,
Yes, I was a runner before getting P.F. and my longest run at that time was 11 miles but I only did the long runs once a week or two. Mostly just 3 mile runs. I'm thinking of getting back on my road bike, but P.F. causes me to fear trying anything because of potential setbacks, as you mentioned. Last time I walked (walked!!) on a treadmill and I was set back for 9 months, with the first 21 days lying on the couch. Now, everything I do is with extreme caution. I've had P.F. for almost 4 yrs.
I'm so glad you are feeling better than you were! Yes, John has provided some great information for all of us and I welcome all info from everyone on this board. A great bunch of people!
Ellen J.

Re: Ellen

john h on 4/16/03 at 18:17 (116342)

Well I think I over did it. I have been sailing along for well over a month with little pain. Day before yesterday I hopped on the treadmill cranked it up to 4 degrees inclination and walked a fast 4 miles. I have definitely gone backwards from that. Not real bad but the wron direction. I had been going 2 miles with not problems and riding the bike but I guess there is a point you just do not cross. No real pain while walking but as usual it is the next 2 days the pain appears. I do not consider this major but will be a little wiser in the future. I can only blame it on that good looking girl on the treadmill next to me who was running.

Re: Ellen

Carole C in NOLA on 4/16/03 at 18:56 (116346)

Oh no... I'm sorry to hear that, John. I had heard that the slant on treadmills can be hard on PF, so maybe you can do it when you feel better, without quite such a slant.

Did you walk in that 5K race? Or is it too late now?

If this wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. Just a short time ago, both of us were feeling great and starting to do more exercise because we felt better. And then first I messed up my feet on that (*&@#$ exercycle, and now you are doing worse too.

Try the treadmill when you are feeling better and when that good looking girl is doing something else, ok? (grin)

Carole C

Re: treadmills--uh oh!

Ellen J. on 4/16/03 at 19:04 (116348)

Hi John,
When I overdid it on the treadmill a year ago I think it was because I had cranked the incline up. My reasoning was that if I had to walk (rather than run), that maybe I could get a better workout by walking uphill. I bet you will fare better than I did because that treadmill incident was only one workout in a string of workouts in which I was ignoring the increasing pain. The treadmill was the straw that broke the camel's back. Since then I have talked to a few people about that and from what I've heard, the treadmill causes the foot to drag farther behind, lengthening the stride too much and increasing the bend at the heel. I remember that my achilles felt very stressed after that uphill workout. One doctor recently said that if I had walked outside rather than on the treadmill I might have avoided the reinjury.
My advice is; don't get on the treadmill next to cute girls! (ha) ;)
Ellen J.

Re: Ellen

Suzanne D on 4/16/03 at 20:56 (116358)

I'm sorry about the setback, John! I hope it doesn't take long before you are back to the level you were ~ with very little or no pain.

I remember a few months ago when I was attending my daughter's band presentation at a football game. I seemed to be walking fine at the time, but there was a rather steep incline to go up to get back to our car. I couldn't believe how that incline bothered my feet!

I tried walking on a treadmill once - before I had any foot problems - but found that it made me feel dizzy and unbalanced. Of course I've never been the athlete that many of you have been, and I guess it showed. The most athletic thing I've done in recent years has been to play Duck, Duck, Goose with my students! :>

I hope you feel better soon!
Suzanne :)

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Bev on 4/17/03 at 06:37 (116388)

Ellen, That is really discouraging to know that your doctor friend is not getting better either with her PF. Is she considering having ESWT again as others on the board have said that often it takes more than one or 2 or 3 treatments. How is she doing now? She is on her feet all day on hard floors, or does she get to sit? Does she just see patients or does she do surgery? I hope she does well soon.

Re: Ellen

john h on 4/17/03 at 09:06 (116398)

Do your children stil play RED ROVER?

Re: delayed onset muscle soreness vs. fascia irritation in the feet

Ellen J. on 4/17/03 at 09:26 (116401)

Hi Bev,
The woman who has the bad case of P.F. is a great person and really nice, but she never gives herself a break--ever. When the pain started in her feet, she kept going and going until her fascia completely ruptured and then she had to go into a wheelchair. She is now out of the wheetchair but she keeps up a constant, hectic pace and it's those hospital floors that are so hard on her feet. I just left a message on her answering machine to see how she's doing and if she returns the call I'll let you know if she has had any progress. It sounds like you are taking better care of your feet than she is, and that you have not actually ruptured the fascia so I bet you will start to feel better over time. If only our feet could talk, and tell us what it is that they want!
Ellen

Re: treadmills

Kathy G on 4/17/03 at 12:49 (116418)

Back when I was actually taking walks again, last September, one rainy day I tried the treadmill. We have a pretty good one; it's got adequate padding and everything. It really hurt my feet.

When I mentioned it to my POD, he said the same thing that yours said, Ellen. He said it is impossible to duplicate ones gait on a treadmill and that I should stick to walking outdoors.

Strange, huh?

Re: treadmills and gait

Ellen J. on 4/17/03 at 14:47 (116429)

That is strange about the treadmills, isn't it? Walking seems like such a simple thing, yet it is so much more complicated than it looks. It all makes me wonder if having a comprehensive gait analysis would help some of us get over P.F. by improving our gait. I sometimes wonder if P.F. gets prolonged from developing a bad gait while we are in pain, which then stays like a bad habit.
I know that runners often have themselves video taped while running so that they can then work on improving their gait. Seems like that idea might benefit some of us. (But instead, video taping us walking rather than running). Does anyone know if some podiatrists or sports medicine docs already do this for P.F. patients?
Ellen J.

Re: John...

Suzanne D on 4/17/03 at 14:55 (116430)

The children at my old school played Red Rover, but when I changed schools 10 years ago, there was a much more developed playground, and I found the children played fewer games like that. Also, they have a really structured PE program in which they don't do many games or relays. They do lots of great things and learn many skills, but they don't play those old games I remember back when we didn't have PE classes.

I was ALWAYS dared over for Red Rover and the opposing side ALWAYS broke through where I was holding on because I wasn't very strong. It got embarassing! But one time stands out in my memory: I was in 4th grade and had been elected president of my 4-H club that morning. So when they dared me over that time, they said, 'Red Rover, Red Rover, we dare Madam President over!' Somehow I didn't mind it so badly that time when I didn't break through! :>

Suzanne :)

Re: my friend who has P.F.

Ellen J. on 4/17/03 at 18:31 (116448)

Hi Bev,
Well, I found out that my friend, the doctor (who has P.F.) is not any better. However, as I mentioned, she didn't quit her job which I think would have helped her a great deal if she had. She is still on her feet most of the day so the pain keeps going.
I remember that the one thing that helped me feel the best was the right pair of shoes, which my friend as not yet found. She just finished giving away another pile of shoes that didn't work for her. I hope you have found a pair of shoes that is helping your feet, as it can make a tremendous difference. Too much arch support can mess them up as much as too little. Also, they need to be super flexible at the ball of the foot, I discovered, so that the foot doesn't have to work against the shoe in order to bend properly at that spot. My shoes have to be almost flat (no heel) in order to allow the foot to feel OK.
Sorry to give you discouraging news about my friend, but keep in mind that she is the rare case, and hasn't altered her lifestyle in order to heal yet.
Ellen

Re: John...

john h on 4/17/03 at 20:11 (116452)

Glad someone besides me remembers Red Rover. I am sure you must have played Dodge Ball also. Even through high
school both boys and girls had gym 5 days a week. I remember the girls playing field hockey in those silly looking bloomers. All of us took swiming, boxing and many ohter sports. I guess the kids today do not get much in the way of daily exercise as part of the curriculum.

Re: treadmills and gait

john h on 4/17/03 at 20:14 (116453)

I have never had a base line stress test and on my next physical next week I will have a stress test on the tread mill. that should really be great for my feet. I noticed today in the paper a NCAA Champion marathon runner from the U. of Alabam dropped dead at lunch. He was 23 and from one of the nations in Africa.

Re: treadmills

john h on 4/17/03 at 20:18 (116455)

Especially when the girl on the treadmill next to you in knock down gorgeous.

Re: John...

Carole C in NOLA on 4/17/03 at 22:36 (116483)

I remember Red Rover and Dodge Ball too, and Red Light Green Light, and Statues, and jumping rope with double hot peppers and parts of the lengthy chants that went with jumping rope.

Makes me feel like an antique; a living part of ancient history.

I was one of those girls playing field hockey in the silly looking bloomers. Ours were blue and went under our blue tunics. We were required to take a lot of sports including fencing, modern dance, tennis, track, swimming, softball, soccer, calisthenics, badminton, volleyball, gymnastics, and more.

Gym was not required past fifth grade for my daughter.

Carole C

Re: John...

Kathy G on 4/18/03 at 08:47 (116503)

It's a shame that kids get too 'cool' at such a young age and don't continue to play the games we old people played when we were young. When I used to volunteer at school I was amazed at the number of girls, especially, who just walked around at recess.

I never played Red Rover, though. Never even knew anyone who did! I feel cheated. I was a real good dodge ball player, though. I was never athletic but I was real fast. My greatest claim to fame was that I was the fastest runner in the school. Then in the middle of 6th grade, Charlie Slack moved in. He was already about 6 feet tall and he was able to outrun me. I was crushed!

I was very active physically but due to eye problems, I got hurt playing baseball at school three times. The school insurance company said that I couldn't play it anymore. Then it was decided that I shouldn't participate in gym at all. I think that the administration made that stupid decision. So, from fifth grade on, I never took gym. I am monocular so I use one eye at a time. The reason I got hurt in baseball was that I was using the wrong eye at the wrong time. If I was using my right eye, for example, and the ball came fast from the left, I didn't always switch eyes on time. I also saw double periodically. I remember when I was in ninth grade, the town built a new school with a beautiful gym. I so wanted to climb the ropes and they had this wonderful trampoline. But I wasn't allowed, for fear 'I'd see two ropes at one time and grab the wrong one.' That wasn't how it worked but no matter how I tried to explain, the school was vehemently opposed to me taking Phys Ed. My parents contacted my opthamologist and he backed the school. It was dumb because there were cetain things I could have done and I was smart enough to know which ones they were. I knew I shouldn't play baseball, for example, but I was an excellent kick ball player.

So while all my friends complained about taking gym, I really wanted to. Luckily, I was active in my own time, but I've always regretted not having been allowed the option of participating in gym or any organized sports. And all this took place back when President Kennedy had just started the campaign for Physical Fittness. Ironic, wasn't it?

Re: John... and the treadmill

Kathy G on 4/18/03 at 09:04 (116506)

Hey John, I keep wondering - was the good looking girl on the treadmill wearing those new, light-weight combat boots?

Re: John...

john h on 4/18/03 at 09:54 (116513)

Carole: How about kick the can and hop scotch? Do kids play marbles anymore. All little boys used to carry their bag of marbles around because you never knew when a game would start.

Re: John...

Carole C in NOLA on 4/18/03 at 12:58 (116538)

Yes!! I was the CHAMPION hopscotch player in my little bitty elementary school (about 100 students in the whole school). We had hopscotch painted on our school playground, and the teachers gave us chalk to make our own, bigger, harder hopscotch designs.

I used to play marbles in the dirt with the boys, too. I had some pretty ones but I was moderately careful about who I played with, because I didn't want to lose them. I did anyway, sometimes. :)

Carole c

Re: John...

Kathy G on 4/18/03 at 14:25 (116541)

Oh yes, and I loved to play marbles. The crystals were my favorite. I got beaten a lot but I had fun. And yes, Carole, I played with the boys, too. Not too many girls were into marbles.

I, too, was an excellent hopscotcher! When we moved to CT when I was in fourth grade, I was astounded that the hopscotches weren't painted on the tar!

Did you also play Chinese Jumprope! How I loved that! And Swedish - a game where you bounced the ball against the building? Another big favorite of mine. I'd drive my mother crazy bouncing the ball against the house for hours. She never complained, though!

Re: Brian and your boat

Kathy G on 4/18/03 at 14:33 (116542)

I'm sorry to hear that you have to sell your boat but just so long as you can continue to fish, right? Do you fly fish at all? My son is big into fishing and wants to try fly fishing. He isn't going to try to tie his own flies, though. He doesn't have the temperament for it. Actually, he's such an active person, I never thought that, as an adult, he'd become a serious fisherman.

When he was going to grad school, he lived in a house right on the water, which looked over at what used to be the Naval Base at Kittery, Maine. I know it's still military but I think it's been decomissioned or something. His roommates told me that they'd come home and look for him and he'd be out on the dock, fishing. He never caught anything; he just liked to fish. My daughter is also a fisherman and it's hilarious because her boyfriend never fished until he met her. Now he has his own pole and we gave him a tackle box for Christmas.

My brother-in-law is an avid fisherman. He used to keep his boat up at Lake Ontario and drive the four, or maybe it was six, hours up there every weekend to fish. He owns his own business so he could leave on Friday. But the fishing on Ontario is so bad that he's decided not to leave it there anymore. He says the fishermen are getting nothing up there and no one knows what's caused the fish to disappear. He's now going to fish at another lake but I'll be darned if I can remember which one.

Re: Brian and your boat

BrianG on 4/19/03 at 06:36 (116559)

Hi Kathy,

As long as your bro-in-law doesn't mind a 5 hour ride, Lake Champlain is by far the best fishery in the Northeast! If he likes trout and salmon, the south end is for him, as it's BIG and deep. I prefer the bass, and stay at the North end each year. It's much shallower and has numerous islands, bridges, culverts, etc. I still take a 1 week vacation up there every year, in June, but it is HELL on my feet. I have to get an extra script of breakthrough meds from my doc, just for that trip. It's the only time of the year he will give me any.

It's nice that you have so many people in your family who enjoy fishing. Most fishermen are very respectfull of the outdoors, and usually make for good citizens (I know there is the occasional BOZO). I know I've picked up trash at numerous boat launches, as well as many other people I've seen using the facilities. It's just something about being one with nature, and that tug on the other end of your thin little line, gets the heart beating right quick, hahaaaaaa.

Nope, I don't have the patience for fly fishing, even though my dad gave me all the tackle years ago. For most of the summer I fish for bass, smallmouth are my favorite :*) I do a little trout and salmon fishing in the spring, while the bass are still waiting for the water to warm up. I used to fish Lake Ontareo years ago, when the fishing was good. I was nothing to catch a limit of 20 to 30 pound king salmon! I think I know what happend to the water, but I am no scientist. The lake has had the dredded zebra mussels for over 20 years. They were not native, but brought in the bilges of larger commercial ships. They are tiny little critters that multiply ten times faster than rabbits! They suck in the turbid dirty water, use up all the nutrients, and pass out nice clean water.

That lake used to be choclate brown when I first started fishing up there, now it is crystle clear! One might think that is a good thing, but in fishing, it is a disaster! The small bait fish have to eat the plankton in the dirty water to survive. With a good supply of bait fish, the rest of the lake will be healthy, even though it might not look as nice. When the bait fish are gone, it's only a matter of time before the fishery declines. It's what happend to Lake O. Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it. :*)

Thanks for the chat,
BrianG

JohnH, time for your 2 cents, don't blow the chance, hahaa

Re: Brian and your boat

john h on 4/19/03 at 09:42 (116564)

Brain I have always been sort of a flat bottom 9.5 hp bass swamp fisherman. I disdain flyfishing also and even if I catch nothing if I can place that lure within 6' of where I cast then job well done. My largest bass was a 9lb large mouth. I would not ever mount anything under 10lb around here or you would be laughed at. I once saw a guy who had 4 15 lb + bass on one catch. I love night fishing with top water lures. the bass sound as big as gators when they strike on a quite night. We have a lot of cottom mouth moccasins around here and at night they swim directly at the boat and then swim under it but you always have your paddle ready just in case. Those little old bass you guys catch in those big northern lakes we call bait fish. Oh yes, sitting in a swamp on a moonlite night drinking your RC Cola and eating your moon pie and fishing for the 16 lb er. Does not get any better than that. When I was young and stupid if things got slow I would hop out of the boat and wade in the swamps looking for frogs. Never thought much about the snakes or gators then but I sure would not do it now. Darn mosquitoes were bothersome. Wife would not be caught dead anywhere near a swamp. I have had wild pigs jump in my boat as I came to shore and once shook a tree trying to get a baby raccoon down. It came down alright with two others and the mama. Needless to say me and my buddy exited the boat into the water.

Re: John...

john h on 4/19/03 at 09:49 (116567)

Did you guys ever use 'steelies' which were actually ball bearings. They came in various sizes and were deadly in marbles. We also called the big marbles 'boulders'. There was one other game of marbles we played where your drew a figure in the dirt in the shape of an eye and each of you placed several marbles in it. then you drew a line about 20-30 feet away and from that line you would shoot at the marbles. Do kids play marbles anymore/ I guess with all the computer games that would be dull stuff. Before I rode a bike I rode a broom stick for a horse. Never see kids riding broom sticks anymore.

Re: John...

Suzanne D on 4/19/03 at 09:58 (116570)

Hi, John! So many of the old games aren't seen any more. I had a stick horse, too. Fancied myself as the next Dale Evans! I loved that show with Roy Rogers and Trigger. I had a cowgirl skirt when I was 6 and thought I had arrived!

I didn't play marbles, but Daddy always talked about that being something all self-respecting boys did when he was growing up. As you said in another post, you always had your marbles with you just in case.

I did play jacks, something I don't see little girls playing much now, either. I practiced a LOT to be able to swipe up all the jacks in the last round in one sweep of the hand.

Red Rover, Hide and Seek, kickball, hopscotch, jump rope rhymes, all these things seem to have almost disappeared. I think part of the reason is that parents don't feel safe letting their children roam the neighborhood to play. They have to plan activities for them and drive them there. Everything is all prepared and planned, and they just push the buttons. Sad...It limits creativity and tends to make them think they have to buy everything they need instead of making do with what they have.

Enjoyed this thread about old games!

Suzanne :)

Re: John...

Carole C in NOLA on 4/19/03 at 10:15 (116571)

I bought my daughter marbles when she was about 8 years old, and she just put them in a drawer.

I don't think kids play cowboys and Indians at all any more, probably because Westerns aren't as popular on TV as they were in the 1950's. So, they probably have no use for broomsticks.

Carole C

Re: John...

Carole C in NOLA on 4/19/03 at 10:25 (116573)

I LOVED playing jacks. That's one my daughter played, too, and we were both pretty good at it.

You are so right about modern life inhibiting creativity:

For older teens, the lack of full service gas stations means no after school jobs pumping gas and messing with cars, and besides the computers in cars makes it harder for them to work on cars.

Modern circuit board based electronics are repaired by swapping out the board, rather than trouble shooting.

I think all this and more aspects of modern life add to the lack of creativity and increasing rarity of truly visionary engineers in recent years.

As you so wisely said, Suzanne, people are increasingly programmed to buy everything rather than making do with what they have and using their own creativity to do so.

Carole C

Re: John...

Suzanne D on 4/19/03 at 10:37 (116575)

You're so right, Carole, about limited creativity and jobs for teens. And you being an engineer major (I think I remember that right!) would see a real lack in this field. Sometimes it seems to me that even young children like I teach don't seem to be able to figure out how to fix simple things or determine another way to do things if the first doesn't work. It's not that they're not smart, but they just haven't had to make do or seen anyone figure another way out, I guess. They just decide it's broken and want a new one.

I guess I had better stop, or I will sound like 'some old person' going on about the good old days! :'> I can remember when my daddy would tell for the umpteenth time how he walked through the snow 2 miles to school
carrying his lunch in a lard bucket. :) I would tease him and ask,'Daddy, didn't they build schools near ANYBODY? It seems like everybody says they had to walk at least 2 miles to get there!'

Things may get better as we repeat them... ;)

Suzanne :)

Re: John...

Sharon W on 4/19/03 at 10:56 (116577)

Oh, YES they do!! With a broomstick, you can pretend to be Harry Potter...

Sharon

Re: John...

john h on 4/19/03 at 18:09 (116589)

You guys are bringing back some of my childhood toys which really did help you become some what creative. Today they would be considered dangerous or silly. 1. Erector Set - some with a wind up motor. you could build anything you could imagine. 2. Chemistry Set - with instructions on how to make a stink bomb. I do not even remember what all chemicals were in those. 3. Tinker Toys -Do they still make these? 4. Lead moulding set. You could melt lead and mould all sorts of things including army solders and tanks. I burned many a hole in our rugs. 5. Electric train - my first one was a Lionel of course and you wound it up but eventually I got one with a transformer. How many hours a day did we roller skate. How many pairs of soles did I ruing by tighten down with a key the holders that clipped to yur shoes. We did not have skate boards but we did attach the ball bearing wheels from old roller skates to boards and go flying down steep paved hills lying on our stomach. I must have built 1000 model airplanes out of those little balsa wood strips and had glue all over the house. Do they still make scooters? Probably Ralph Nader would outlaw them. Seems we even had the famous Ouji Board way back then. By the time you were a teenager you should have liitle problem fixing almost any inline engine six cylinder as there weas not much to fix. Where did the manual choke disappear to? Running boards were cool and if you never made out in a rumble seat you have not lived.

Re: John...

john h on 4/19/03 at 18:12 (116591)

Another oldie which mostly the boys played with a knife called 'Mumblee Peg'. It would never pass muster today because you could cut yourself. I saw a Kazoo in a store this week. Ever play one of those babies?

Re: John...

Carole C in NOLA on 4/19/03 at 18:57 (116594)

John, they still make electric trains, but not many parents can afford them for kids. Grownup hobbyists buy them a lot. They are smaller than the big O-gauge trains that we used to have back in the 1950's.

When my daughter was little, in the 1980's, you could not get just a plain Erector set any more... you had to get ones that had one particular thing you were supposed to build with it and not many generic pieces. That kind of defeated the purpose. I bought her one anyway.

Tinker Toys...... now here's something COOL..... when Christina was little (mind you, this was in the early 1980's), you could buy GIANT TINKERTOYS, that even toddlers could play with and build with. That was a neat idea. They had some at her nursery school.

Chemistry set and lead molding set..... I never heard of the lead molding sets. Chemistry sets are still made but safety concerns have made them less interesting.

Now John; you are REALLY showing your age by admitted that you made out in a rumble seat. I've ridden in them many times, but not by the time I was dating. There was a boy in my high school who bought a used hearse for very little and renovated it, and it was said that he took many girls to watch the submarine races in it. It was probably much more spacious than a rumble seat. I wouldn't go near it (or him).

Carole C

Re: John...

BrianG on 4/19/03 at 20:04 (116599)

I don't ever remember riding a broomstick horse, but I'm pretty sure the gal I took to my senior prom had her very own broomstick. I think she mainly flew on it, on full moon nights ! Hahahaa

Re: John...

Suzanne D on 4/19/03 at 22:26 (116604)

My daddy also talked about playing 'Mumblee Peg'. Something about throwing a knife straight down into the ground, I believe. I never saw it done, but I thought it sounded daring when he talked about it! :>

Speaking of knives, I used to be amazed while watching my grandfather and other older men around town 'whittle'. Do you all know what that is? They would take cedar sticks and a sharp pocket knife and just sit and shave off little thin strips that fell to the ground in curls. I thought it was the neatest thing. My little hometown had a town square, and any day you drove by, you could see several men sitting around on benches around the courthouse whittling. They never made anything out of the wood, just carefully shaved off those little curls that fell in a pile at their feet.

I wanted so badly to do that. I asked my daddy to get me a knife and asked Grandaddy for a stick of cedar. I would sit on his back steps and try, but I never could get the hang of it. I guess I was about 10 or 12 years old. All I ever did was manage to gouge out some pieces of wood! I bet they didn't give me a very sharp knife, now that I think about it!

I also was very interested in Swiss Army knives. I thought they were the coolest things with the little scissors and so forth. Never got one of those either! :)

Suzanne :)

Re: John...

john h on 4/20/03 at 14:39 (116624)

Whittling was very common place especially in the south. I never whittled but all of us made sling shots with our knives and usually a fork branch from a tree. We used the pieces of rubber tire tube for the sling attached to a piece of leather to hold what ever you would sling. I think ever kid over 10 wore a hunters knife on his belt. Would that go over today or what? Of couse we never cut anyone as all fights were fair and only fist were used. No kicking or gouging.

Re: John...

Kathy G on 4/21/03 at 09:45 (116671)

Now Brian, are you saying that the night was less than enjoyable?

Let's see. When I heard about the horses, all I could think of was Harry Potter, too! A funny story about play guns: I always said that I wouldn't buy my son a play gun. That was the way that many of us felt in the early seventies. But when he picked up a stick in the yard and held it out, saying, 'Gun! Gun!' in the same tone that one would say, 'Bang! Bang!', I knew I was fighting a losing battle. To her delight, my mother, who had had three daughters and no sons, went out and bought him a gun. He didn't play with it much but it certainly got it out of his system! What's funny is that I had long braids and fancied myself to be Annie Oakley and had a red cowboy hat and a two-gun holster when I was about six years old!

You're right, so many of the toys that we all played with would be considered 'too dangerous' by today's standards and yet parents allow their children to watch MTV and play incredibly violent video games. I'm at a loss to explain it and I sure feel like a fuddy-duddy. I'm just so glad that my kids were grown by the time computers and those kinds of games into widespread use and that MTV wasn't a problem because they were both too active.

About whittling, having grown up in the north, I never saw a single person whittling. Most of my friends were boys when I was growing up and I can't remember a single one even having a jackknife. And yet, my father was never without his. Maybe it wasn't as popular in the north or something? Or maybe no one trusted us with knives!

Re: John...

john h on 4/21/03 at 10:02 (116675)

Kathy: you bring to mind yet another disappearing toy and that is the Cap Gun. Every little kid from 6 on up had them. You had a roll of caps which went in the little gun and it actually did make a real bang. The caps had a very small amount of gun powder and when the hammer struck the cap it was a bang. Every Saturday after noon was double feature Western movie time with a cartoon and on going seriel. Our stars were Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Wild Bill Elliott, The Lone Ranger with a little of the Sons of the Pioneers to sing. The good guys wore white hats and always won. Every southern boy or man carried his pocket knife. You could make your own toothpick, whittle, or whatever. I still have my grandfathers pocket knife. I think the south being rural where there was a real need for knives is the reason the pocket knife became common in this area of the country. Knife collecting is still very much in vogue even today. Some of the Knife shows are amazing..

Re: John...

Kathy G on 4/21/03 at 14:40 (116706)

Oh I just loved caps! You could buy them at the local store for a nickel. I used them in my guns and also used to use rocks to pound them to make them go off! And if you piled up multiple layers of them, they really made a big bang! I know my son, who's 29, had caps but I'll have to check with my daughter, who's 22, to see if she did.

And you know what else I loved? Those little pellets you could get around the Fourth of July. You'd set them on fire and a little worm, made out of ash, would grow out of them. For some reason, I just thought those were nifty! One year, a friend who owned a store, gave me several packages of them. I hoarded them and would set some off on the fourth of every month. I remember distincly, sitting on our patio, lighting some in a February snowstorm!

Re: John...

BrianG on 4/21/03 at 17:17 (116724)

John, I thought you were loosing your mind when you said 'Wild Bill Elliott' was a cowboy. The only person I know by that name races in Nascar, and is from Dawsonville, GA. I don't think it's too big of a town, as whenever he wins, they ring a big old bell at the local pool hall. That poor bell, it's now full of rust! Old Bill hasn't won in a few years :*)

I did go to Google, and sure enough, he was a champion horseman! I think you have to be a year, or two, older than me, hahaaaa.

And Kathy, my prom really was OK, but she went to Catholic high school. if you get my drift :*)
I had cap guns, marbles, a throwing knife, and my gun permit before I was even old enough to drive. I used to 'walk' about a mile, to my friends house, on Saturdays, carring my shotgun, when I was 15 years old. Can you imagine doing that today!!! 911, HELP !!!!!! Hahahaa

BrianG

Re: John...

john h on 4/21/03 at 18:20 (116732)

Brain: The real Wild Bill wore two guns and both were worn backwards so he had to turn his wrist when he drew. Of course they were pearl handled. He was no sissy cowboy and did not have a wimpy side kick. Do you by chance remember Buck Jones? He was a famous cowboy who was killed in a big nightclub fire in Boston in the 40's. There was also my namesake Tim Holt who rode the range to get rid of evil. Your NASCAR sissy probably stole the real Wild Bills name. How about Tex Ritter. Tex could also sing. I know you know his son the star of Three's Company and is currently in some sitcom.

Re: John...

john h on 4/21/03 at 18:25 (116733)

When I was young there were no rules about how powerful fire works could be Kathy. SOne of those fire cracker could blow your arm off they were so big. There was some object that was round and when you threw it and it hit it exploded (Cherry Bomb). I know one fire cracker was at least 1' in diameter and around 3' long so it had to have lots of powder.Do they still sell sparklers?

Re: John...

BrianG on 4/22/03 at 21:12 (116874)

John, the Cocoanut Grove fire (1942) was the big one, that was supposed to end all nightclub fires. Many fire codes were changed after that one, yet in the last few months there have been 2 more big club fires. Will they ever learn???

About Tex Ritter's son, if his name is John, some people think he's funny. Other people think he's pretty wimpy, hahahaaaaa!

I think I remember John Wayne the best, but he was making movies much later than most of the guys you mentioned. I wasn't even born when the big Boston fire happened!

BrianG

Cut and Pasted from the Net:

Cocoanut Grove nightclub
During the early days of World War II, a major fire struck the Cocoanut Grove nightclub in Boston, Massachusetts. On the night of the fire, November 28, 1942, the club had approximately 1,000 occupants, many of whom were people preparing to go overseas on military duty. A lighted match used by an employee in changing a light bulb has been considered the possible cause for this tragic fire, which took 492 lives. Almost half of the occupants were killed, and many were seriously injured. Flammable decorations spread the fire rapidly. Men and women were reported to have clawed inhumanly in an effort to get out of the building. The two revolving doors at the main entrance had bodies stacked four and five deep after the fire was brought under control. Authorities estimated that possibly 300 of those killed could have been saved had the doors swung outward. It should be noted that the capacity of the structure had also been exceeded.
The Cocoanut Grove fire prompted major efforts in the field of fire prevention and control for nightclubs and other related places of assembly. Immediate steps were taken to provide for emergency lighting and occupant capacity placards in places of assembly. Exit lights were also required as a result of the concern generated by this fire.