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Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Posted by Bev on 5/06/03 at 12:22 (117912)

I need to make a decision as to having the Dornier or the OssaTron for ESWT. I saw a pod yesterday and he suggested the Dornier , he stated ' twelve minutes each foot and you will be able to walk out of here healed, with no more problems'. Does this sound reasonable to all of you experienced PF'ers out there? We have suffered with this for 18 months, and now in 30 minutes we are going to be 'healed'?. Anyway, any suggestions as to what machine is the better or the pro's and the con's of them? Thankyou for your help PF'ers.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

SteveG on 5/06/03 at 12:48 (117917)

Bev - Both machines seem to have a similar success rate, although I think the Dornier is a newer machine. If it is the 'Ultra' it also has an ultrasound so you can see the facia, measure its thickness, etc. However, this part - ' twelve minutes each foot and you will be able to walk out of here healed, with no more problems' is false (or at least wildly optimistic). I believe that most patients start to see relief after 6-8 weeks.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Bev on 5/06/03 at 13:16 (117920)

Steve,
You mean there really isn't a magic wand that comes with the Dornier ? I thought that pod had one, haha. Thanks

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Dr. Z on 5/06/03 at 13:51 (117922)

Actually each foot takes 22 minutes and this is without preparation.
Healing varies with each patient. Some will get better in days, weeks up to sixteen weeks. Most will get relief that will improve with time over a sixteen weeks period. Some will not obtain relief for at least eight to twelve weeks. Some will need a second treatment after a sixteen week period period. The FDA studies showed that the dornier was more effective then the ossatron . This was described after a one year follow-up. Anyone that tells you this is magic should go to some one that actually has experience .

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Bev on 5/06/03 at 14:16 (117924)

He is a pod with lots of letters after his name, why would he say that about the ESWT taking 12 minutes and walking right out and being healed if he knows better? Surely he dosen't think I am a dummy, I told him I had done a lot of research on the ESWT already. Do they think workmans comp patients are all dummys, and deserve no credit for brains , all doctors treat us as if we are stupid and are not worth their time. I am an educated person whom has happened to had bad luck being a nurse with bum feet, does that automatically make me a dummy cause I am on workmans comp now, doctors? Excuse me for steaming off.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

SteveG on 5/06/03 at 15:23 (117928)

My guess is that he told you that because he believes it or this has been his experience with the treatment. I don't think he thought I'll tell this lady some things I know to be false since she is obviously a moron.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Bev on 5/06/03 at 17:25 (117937)

Steve,
You really think some people are able to have 12 minute treatments and walk out healed :(PIPE) that would be wonderful /:) I hope that I will be one of those lucky ones :D

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Ed Davis, DPM on 5/06/03 at 18:17 (117951)

Bev:
The best way to look at this is that the ESWT treatment sets in place a physiologic process in your body that will probably lead to healing of the problem in about 12 weeks. I would asume that your doc realizes this but is a bit overzealous in his 'selling' of the treatment.
Ed

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Bev on 5/06/03 at 20:04 (117961)

What is the % of healing with ESWT ? Do people usually get 50% relief of pain, or 60% or 75% or what are we to expect? Are we able to go back to a 'normal' way of life? How long does it take before we can? Thankyou.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

SteveG on 5/06/03 at 20:12 (117962)

Bev - it varies alot. I believe the treatment is regarded as a 'success' if there is more than a 50% reduction in pain - that's the criterion they use at Bayshore. Some people are pain free, some improve 70%, 50%, 30%. At 4 months I would say that I was about 50% improved.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Dr. Z on 5/06/03 at 20:54 (117967)

50% relief with ESWT isn't consider a sucess where I come from. Either did the one year FDA follow with the dornier

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Bev on 5/07/03 at 07:29 (117993)

DOCTOR , What do you concider a sucess? What % rate of pain at what level and at 6 months and at a year , :-/

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Sunny Jacob on 5/07/03 at 08:33 (118000)

Steve G.,
I have to correct you regarding your statement of Bayshore's success rate.
We define our success rate as follows:
Irrespective of the patient's pain level (on activity) before treatment, i.e. VAS level 4 to 10, - if the patient achieves a pain level between 0 and 3 within 12 weeks post treatment, we call the treatment successful.
In your example, if a patient had for instance a pre treatment VAS pain level of 9 and post treatment result is 50%, the pain level achieved would be only 4.5 VAS. Again, this is absolutely not what we use at Bayshore to measure the success rate.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

SteveG on 5/07/03 at 09:13 (118002)

Sunny - thanks for the clarification. I must have taken the wrong impression from one of your earlier posts.

Re: Dornier Vs. OssaTron

Dr. Z on 5/07/03 at 20:49 (118068)

Success is when the patient tells me that they are doing all of their normal activities with no pain or very little. There is usually a VAS score
of 1 or 2 and a Roles/Maudley scoring of excellent or very good. There is no time frame to determine this but it usally is over six months and one year from the time of the original treatment

Re: This discussion and coverage issues....

Ed Davis, DPM on 5/09/03 at 22:47 (118213)

I think this discussion underscores one of the concerns of the insurance industry when it comes to ESWT coverage.

I had posted previously that there are two categories of ESWT patients. The first category are those with intractable PF that may have been candidates for surgery but ESWT has offered a better alternative. This is the category that we all recognize. The second category includes patients who have met a modest degree of success with conservative treatment and may even be labelled as 'cured' by traditional standards. That group has PF that has not gone on to resolution but is 'controlled' via orthotics and some activity modification. Such individuals may express an interest in ESWT as a means to achieve complete resolution. As such the potential for high utilization rates of ESWT exists, and that, I beleive, forms the basis of much of the resistance from insurers. I see an enormous role for the low energy protocols and machines in providing relatively low cost treatment for individuals in the second category, particularly if third party coverage is not forthcoming. Such machines also provide usage in distal PF, achilles tendinitis and other 'off label' uses.
Ed

Re: This discussion and coverage issues....

Dr. Z on 5/10/03 at 07:39 (118222)

The potential for normal ultization is great. If 90% of the patient population resolves their pf with conservation treatment that leaves 10% that don't. That 10% of the population runs in into the tens of thousands depending of the total population for that area.

Re: Dornier vs Ossatron

Mohez on 5/11/03 at 21:07 (118369)

I have had both, my five Dornier treatments on each foot, 1 week apart did very little. My 3 Ossatrons ( on each foot ), months apart did wonders. In a nutshell, Ossatron worked for me and the Dornier did not.

Mohez

Re: To Mohez Dornier vs Ossatron

Pauline on 5/11/03 at 21:30 (118374)

Mohez,
Did you have to pay for each and every treatment? I can't believe the money spent if they were done in the states. Doesn't sound like an ammount the average patient could afford. Are you totally pain free now or like John down around a 1 and 2?

Re: Dornier vs Ossatron

Scott D. on 5/12/03 at 08:42 (118390)

Mohez,

Am I to understand that you had 5 Dornier treatments on each foot over the course of 5 weeks (10 total treatments)?? Where did you have these done? Is this their standard protocol? How long after the Dornier treatments did you wait to have the 6 Ossatrons done?

Re: To Mohez Dornier vs Ossatron

john h on 5/12/03 at 14:11 (118425)

I know Mohez first treatment was paid for by John W. when he was an officer with Healthtronics. He paid for the original Ossatron 6 to have treatment done in Canada before it was approved by the FDA in the U.S. Mohez I think is fortunate to live in Canada and I think Toronto where the fees were not so bad. Last I heard from him he was 100%

Re: Dornier vs Ossatron

john h on 5/12/03 at 14:15 (118429)

Mohez: Just from a patients unscientific viewpoint did you sense the shocks from the Ossatron were stronger or were you under sedation.

Re: Dornier vs Ossatron

Dr. Z on 5/13/03 at 06:50 (118502)

Hi

The protocol you used with the dornier was LOW energy and the protocol you used for the Ossatron was high energy. The protocol that was used for the ossatron was probaby lower that what is used in the states