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Let Us Get On Track

Posted by john h on 6/13/03 at 09:19 (121738)

I will say again the ESWT Board is becoming a forum for arguing law, marketing or not marketing.arguing technical data that is of little help to the average PF patient seeking help. We need to get back to offering real world help to PF patients and stop bickering over minute details.The average person accessing the ESWT board who has PF is not interested in what is marketing, the FDA, or 64 studies by Rompe.. Bring this board back to what helps those who need help. Most peoples eyes are just going to glaze over when accessing this board, It is not what it once was.

Re: Let Us Get On Track

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/13/03 at 10:49 (121755)


I agree wholeheartedly, but it cannot be done without some reasonable standards of editing. A hostile environment will keep qualified posters, particularly those with information of value to share, away.


Re: Let Us Get On Track

Pauline on 6/13/03 at 14:37 (121774)

Dr. Ed,
What happened here to you could happen to all U.S. Pods that purchase the Sonocur machine. It's not unique to you, it just happens your the only one posting on this forum.

Your situation mimics the Orbie story, however, no other ESWT machines were FDA approved at that time.

If Sonocur is posting it's code of conduct regarding the marketing of this product on it's web site chances are it's also some where on their purchase agreement.

Let's not kid ourselves, your own colleagues using Ossatron and Dornier knew the finite marketing problems you and other Pods would have with this machine.

Orthos on the other hand, definately have an advantage. They can use it for elbows in addition to other off label use and do not need to market it. It's just another mode of treatment for them.

Since Pods can't market it openly, burying it in the internet would normally be a pretty good bet. Unfortunately not here though, because since those early days of Orbie you now have ESWT competition on this site.

What was a sweet deal for Orbie for two years, can't be repeated.

Re: Let Us Get On Track

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/13/03 at 15:32 (121778)


The Sonocur and Orbie situation are not analogous although there is a common thread concerning the issue of marketing. I don't have time to go into all of the details of how they differ.

The issues that concern this site include how marketing is to be defined and who we are going to allow to define it. Just for a moment, ask yourself that if this was a mainstream publication, would an editor allow some of the things said to go unedited. I don't think so. If we cannot maintain a higher level of standards in terms of this being a popular information source then many will not want to associate themselves with this site.


Re: Let Us Get On Track

Pauline on 6/13/03 at 16:51 (121785)

I think your forgetting that in this situation there is a legal issue that is directly related to the manufacturer's and FDA's restruction placed on the marketing of this medical device. In the U.S., can Sonocur machines be marketed openly for the treatment of P.F. given the fact that it's a off label use of the product?

It's not just a matter of editing of words, it's following the letter of the law.

I disagree with you when you say 'the issues that concern this site include how marketing should be defined' That defination has already been set forth and defined by the manufacturer under the FDA's guidelines for all vehicals of marketing concerning this product.

Your job and every other Pod's job is simply to follow it.

Re: Let Us Get On Track

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/13/03 at 18:19 (121795)


Sorry, but there is no 'letter of the law' in this situation. There are federal regs that are open to interpretation. What actually constitutes 'marketing' is open for interpretation. If you want to support the extreme interpretation of Bill and Scott there will be very limited discourse on this web site.

There are federal judges who have relevant cases brought to them so that such interpretations can be made. It is not up to you, Bill or Scott to usurp that duty.


Re: Let Us Get On Track

Pauline on 6/13/03 at 19:50 (121805)

Come on Dr. Ed., based on the past history of this site this situation won't change anything.

I have to say I feel your pain because the Orbie got away with it for years and in relm of fair play what's good for the goose should be good for the gander, but I'm afraid it's not going to happen.

If the FDA is already looking at this as Bill indicated, sooner or later
Scott R. may find another letter in his mail box and perhaps all the Pods that purchased the Sonocur too.

What really stands out is the lack of support shown by your colleagues and that should concern you too.

Have you and any other Pods who purchased the Sonocur discussed among yourselves the marketing limitations of this machine? What's the word at your conventions? Are any actions going to be taken?

I think this is where your strength lies, not on this board.

Re: Let Us Get On Track

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/13/03 at 20:57 (121811)


What did the 'Orbie get away with'? It got away with curing patients. Isn't that what medicine is about? It is unfortunate that you do not think so.

I am not talking about the past history of this site. I am specifically talking about current events on the site.

I feel that our Consititution's guarantees of free speech will win out in the end. I feel that the need of patients for quality treatment at a reasonable price will win out in the end.

Obviously your comments about us finding letters in our mail box reflects a warped mentality on your part as you seem to take pleasure in fanning the flames of conflict on this site. This is a sight where patients in pain come to for help. They do not revel in the conflicts and controversies you seem to so enjoy. Please take your vindictive attitude
and your warped mind elsewhere.


Re: Let Us Get On Track

Philip on 6/13/03 at 21:13 (121813)


WOW. I am a casual visitor who has gotten a lot of benefit from the site and have yet to post. It grieves me to see what is happening to the site.
It seems that you and a couple of others want to burn it to the ground.
There is a place in hell for people like you.


Re: Let Us Get On Track

Pauline on 6/13/03 at 22:06 (121819)

Didn't mean to fan any flames, but I can see from your last post that your heating up again, so enough said on the subject from this end.

I wish you no harm, be well my friend and may only good come into your life.

Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

Tammie on 6/13/03 at 23:11 (121827)

I was a bit uncomfortable to night and I thought I would surf and see how some of my friends are doing at heel spurs, but instead of finding Dr.s posting care for the people who need them Pauline has them tied up again.

I know I am, not the best typer or speller so will apoligise first for that. Then I just have to say why Pauline do you always have to pick at someone? You know that it isnt even the Docs, I notice you like to pick on the weak or those who maybe arent strong like yourself . I catch your drifts often and I dont think you are the nicest person either.You act like you are the royal queen of heelspurs and if you arent on the throne you get angry and bored and find someone to start with.You were here once before I felt for you and really I still do as I have to piety a person who sets out to thrive at the mere thought of getting people in trouble or making people feel bad by some of your turnaround mocking words.

Pauline you really have to much time in your life if you need to goad the Drs. when they are trying to help people , it would be different if it was social as that is free type board. But it is not and you should not be doing this. I feel you are a sick woman that needs to feel that she is in charge and you need to be stroked for your ingenious. Please leave the people alone here allow them to have the dr.s who have so freely gave of there free time to help. Dont wreck something that really is good if you dont like it you can leave you know . I mean if you wanted to do something for the better that would be nice not all this bull about I have been vacationing in whatever land and that referrals that you are so important and money , whoopeeee who really cares this board is not about that It is about Doc.s giving there time here FREE and helping in any way they can . Which results into a lot of good info from alot of information here not to metion friends that we make . Why dont you go buy your own board and make it as you would like and send us all your email and maybee we will come there and see you/. We could just see how good you could really do!

I am sorry as I do not enjoy writing thease things it is not me at all but you really make me angry as it seems everytime I read you are on someones case and I dont like it and dont think it is fair. Time for the curtain to come down my friend . Good luck as I really think you are a smart woman but just on the wrong track.

See I can say this as I am not here and if I get kicked off no loss I will be having my surgery for my trial scs so I shall be thinking of more importand things then coniving peiople who try to break up a board that was first rate and was put here for information and you who also know that hashing Docs is not your JOB If you want that JOB go to work and find it. Stay away from the ones here that give there time and there care to help people find a Doc in their areas or give a idea what they might be dealing with.

Re: Philip,Sorry

Tammie on 6/13/03 at 23:16 (121828)

I am so sorry that this bothers you I have been here for some time and I do not really get nasty this is really unlike me but I had to do it so please forgive me as I dont feel proud of myself.

This is a good site really great in fact! Alot of good people to help with info and alot of long timers here to help if they can most are really sweet and friendly as can be. Unfortuantly we have a few that surface every so ofton who need to have there voice noted. Stick around maybe another thread tho might be better tho!

Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/14/03 at 00:15 (121834)


You have said it so well! Pauline seems to have two personalities. At times she asks helpful, inciteful questions. Other times, she does her best to make a bad situation worse. Perhaps she really needs some serious counseling. The problem is, that without a moderator, a few can do a lot of damage to the site.

I, for one, have a family and a practice. I take time to contribute to the site because I have enjoyed it. There are some who would like to suppress the truth and, if given a free hand, can cause a lot of trouble. I will take a break for a while from this site and will only post to defend myself -- sort of a shame that that should be necessary.

Please feel free to email me at (email removed) and that goes for any of those who would like to chat. I am giving out that particular email since it gives me the ability to selectively block out those who I don't want to hear from.

Best wishes.


Re: Philip,Sorry

JoAnn M on 6/14/03 at 02:58 (121837)

Tammy,I found your message right on target,well thought out and clear.Typos and spelling are not important,keep on posting,clear thought and good intentions are obviously most important.

Re: Let Us Get On Track

Elizabeth C. on 6/14/03 at 06:53 (121839)

I am with you all the way. I am not as enthused to check the site as I was in the past, due to continued tension between certain posts. I was beginning to feel reluctant to post in fear of someone getting condescendingly curt with me. I hope this site becomes user friendly again too!


Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

Elizabeth C. on 6/14/03 at 07:10 (121840)

Dear Dr. Ed,
I understand where you are coming from and feel bad that it has come to this. I was so impressed that the Dr.'s take their time out to help others in this board. I have learned a great deal from this site. My Pod. has not told me half of the info. I have learned from this site. When we had our last visit, I came prepared. He (my Pod.) was so impressed that I had done some research. So, I thank you for your time and devotion.


Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

john h on 6/14/03 at 08:49 (121847)

To all: : We only have a few Doctors who take the time to help people on this board. We can hardly afford to lose people with real expertise and training. In the long run our Doctors and other foot specialist have provided more insighhtful information to help those in PF pain than most of us put together. It is time for us to get this ESWT board back on track and stop all this petty nonsense. We have only a few people who are making this board less than what it can and should be. I am not a moderator and I have never edited a post but Scott has given me that authority to do so and at some point if we do not get on track I will use it. Let us try to go just one week without mentioning politics, religion, marketing, the FDA,threats, and using just plain good manners and everyday common sense. Most of us are really not interested in just how smart you are we want some everyday advice on what may have helped you and your thoughts on what may help the rest of us...

Re: Elilzabeth, Dr. Ed

Sharon W on 6/14/03 at 09:54 (121851)

Elizabeth, Dr. Ed

Very well said. I know John h has said to leave this subject alone, but I just had to post one more time, to let Dr. Ed know that HE is the major reason I became interested in this site in the first place, and I will really miss him.

I do understand why Dr. Ed feels he must leave us for a while -- the things said to him were very serious, potentially endangering his career, and noone has taken any action to stop it. But, once this has died down I hope and pray that he will return; heelspurs would never be the same without Dr. Ed.


Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

Sunny Jacob on 6/15/03 at 08:34 (121905)

If Scott has given you the authority to edit the message board, you should have done it a long time ago. One of the best web sites available for ESWT has now deteriorated to the level of the National Enquirer. Is this the expectation of the editorial board?
Under the cover of ‘patient advocates', some individuals confuse the readers with irrelevant, too technical and at times wrong information. This is a disservice to patients or those who come to this message board to learn about the available choices in order to make a well informed decision.

ESWT is so far one of the best alternatives available for various tendonitis and PF. High energy, low energy, or any of the proven and approved ESWT equipment will do the job. Of course, well selected equipment can make a difference in any modality and manufacturers continue to improve their products through R&D. However, an experienced therapist and a well-defined treatment protocol will make a substantial difference. If I were a consumer, I would consider any fees above $2,500 for an ESWT treatment (single or multiple session) somewhat greedy.

Approximately a year ago we had a patient from Colorado with bilateral PF. He came with two bags full of orthotics (cost in 3 years approx. $7,000) because he was told that everyone who prescribed said that the last one was poorly made, etc. He spent $9000 for ESWT in one of the States. The final result was that the pain was still at VAS level 8 to 9. He had a treatment at our clinic (total cost of $2,100 for bilateral) and today he is a satisfied patient

Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

john h on 6/15/03 at 19:11 (121950)

Sunny: I plead guilty as charged. I have never edited a post but it is obvious a couple of people have taken this board down to a new low level. I would prefer they just go away as they offer nothing to PF patients and are driving away qualified people who can help and PF patients who get blurried eyed reading their post.

Re: Pauline ,give up you always harass somebody leave them alone

john h on 6/16/03 at 08:06 (121974)

Sunny I am sure I have spent more than $7000 on surgery,shoes,shots,x-rays,travel,eswt and many other things. I have come this far so certainly will try the low level treatment.

Re: Standards of journalism

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/16/03 at 09:35 (121983)


I greatly appreciate your comments as well a the comments of DR. Z and others above. I did not realize that Dr. Z had encountered similar issues.

This site has grown in readership. The internet is a newer medium of communication but that does not mean that all accepted standards of journalism be ignored. No established, respected print medium would allow what has occurred here.

I think the future of the site is totally up to Scott R. I asked him to delete the derrogatory posts but he obviously refused. I am a bit dissapointed with John for not doing so since he had the authority. Censorship is to be avoided but we cannot have anonymous individuals making unfounded accusations against those with known identities. One can imagine ho far that could potentially go. Perhaps when some ground rules have been established for editing, the site will again be a place worth visiting.


Re: Standards of journalism

Dr. Z on 6/16/03 at 16:38 (122016)


I still remember the days when I would go and hide on the social board for rest. Just remember one thing when YOU are good this is what happens to you, people try to bring you down my friend. The FDA. Sonocur, Orbie, whatever is something that has nothing to do with you .
The best way to hide is to make your patients well, that is a feeling that no one can take away from you . Now get your *ss back we have some patients that need our help. Just joking you do what is right for you. Hope to meet you someday

Re: Standards of journalism

JudyS on 6/16/03 at 18:22 (122028)

Dr. Ed - I am one of those folks who truly appreciates your time here - as well as that of Dr. Z and other doctors. I absolutely hate to see you back off - especially when it's due to nothing more than a historic rabble-rouser just looking for attention. You have way too much support here to bother worrying about one or two folks who have been hell-bent for a year or two on discrediting some professionals here.
Having said that, I disagree with you about John h and his 'deleting/editing' authority. I think that neither he nor Wendy, nor any other poster here should have that responsibility. It is just plain wrought with potential problems and far too much pressure for one person alone. I would not want to be John h and have to wonder if I should delete or edit a post. That's just too much and will always lead to a sort of 'damned if I do and damned if I don't' problem. It's up to Scott R, pure and simple. If enough of us email him with the same complaint, he will take action.
In this case, I think it's time for Scott R to boot off one or two folks who consistently cause trouble. Enough is enough.

Re: Standards of journalism

Ed Davis, DPM on 6/16/03 at 19:16 (122037)

Dr. Z and Judy:

Thank you. By the way Dr. Z, are you heading to the APMA National in August? I probably will be there.

Judy -- I guess there could be an editing committee although one or more individuals need have the authority to take the necessary action. Scott has grown this site to more than he ever could have expected but he needs to recognize that there are some definite responsibilities that rest with the venture. Keep in mind that there are probably a lot more readers than posters. Recently we have been pleasantly surprised by Dr. Rompe's posts. We just are not going to get people of that caliber willing to post if they see that the environment is not conducive to their participation.