a real cure that worksPosted by rick b. on 7/12/03 at 18:49 (124266)
I'll try this one last time. First, I am a happy employed engineer and have no intentions to frequent this web site after today. I do not want to sell anything, just share my good luck with others. I used to read this forum every day for about a year. I was just deleting old bookmarks the other day and came upon this web site. I thought I would see if I could help some other frustrated people.
Have any of you watched Dr. Phil? One of his favorite lines is, 'Do you want to be right, or do you want to resolve your problem.' I sense from the comments that you folks want to be right more than you want to be cured. Again, I recommend that you buy the book (Healing Back Pain' by Dr. John Sarno), read it and see if it helps you.
Believe me, you are being way to scientific. So far, things have not worked for you or you would not be reading this forum at all. Don't analyze, just give it a try. The book is very easy to read and is full of common sense.
Re: a real cure that worksBGCPed on 7/12/03 at 20:34 (124275)
An Engineer telling folks they are being too scientific? Dont analyze? Hope you dont take that approach at your job.....thats a real no no attitude in your line of work
Re: a real cure that worksrick b. on 7/13/03 at 00:04 (124284)
What I am saying is that the problem is far simplier than you think. You are missing the point here. I no longer have any pain. I golf, play basket ball and garden. I am learning to enjoy life again. I can only hope some of the forum regulars read the book. If so, and if their pain goes away, maybe others of you will find them credible.
I understand that this forum is open to all sorts of individuals and you have no idea if they are sincere, educated etc. I understand your caution. Again, I am only suggesting you read a short book that may change your life.
Now for BGCPed, you seem a little hostile. That is OK with me, we do not know each other. Unfortunately, I really am trying to help. I do not mean to psychoanalyze you, but you sure seem to be carrying some anger. If you read the book with an open mind, you may find that all of us have anger and do not realize it. I know, I had more than I could ever imagine.
By the way, this book is endorsed by Dr. Weil on his web site, this is where I first read about it.
I said before that I will not continue on this forum. My intention is not to argue with people or upset them. I may check back in a few weeks. Good luck
Re: a real cure that worksScott R on 7/13/03 at 09:07 (124297)
how can a book about back pain cure all forms of heel pain? can it also cure cancer?
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/13/03 at 09:55 (124299)
Rick: I read John Samo's book on back pain some time ago. Unfortunately my back pain is mechanical and comes from a helicopter crash so it did not help me. Like PF people with chronic back pain will go to great lengths and try or read anything if they think it will help. Back pain is one of those illness that can very much be effected by your emotions because when your muscles tighten up from a bid dose of adrenlin you can have very real pain. I am not convinced that the fasica which is a tendon can be effected as much as the back with your feelings although I do understand your backbone is connected to you leg bone is connect to your footbone blah blah blah.
Re: a real cure that worksBGCPed on 7/13/03 at 11:25 (124307)
Well sorry you feel I am hostile and angry. I do read with caution a first time post that wants to sell something. That in itself is not bad all products have to be posted first somewhere. What I was noting is relative 'cure all' tone AND the blanket bashing of many other modalities and professions.
You stated I was missing the point and that it was far simplier than I think. I am glad the book cured you. Sometimes treating a pt between the ears cures other issues. I also realize that there can be a foot/back relationship, which from a biomechanical standpoint the foot is usually the greater cause.
Majority of pf cases are biomechanical,footwear and daily activity factors. You theory is a form of chicken or the egg meaning attitude or mental state can cause back that causes pf. I would say the more common order is pf cause altered gait patterns that can go up the chain and affect the spine and or surrounding muscles.
I must say it is refreshing to see an Engineer that has the ability to shun science and anylitical thinking. Are you aware if this book or theory has any peer review? I know that is not the only stamp of approval but it does help.
Re: I don't have back pain! I have PF...Carole C in NOLA on 7/13/03 at 13:54 (124321)
I've never had chronic back pain. Is that too scientific for you?
You can appear out of nowhere and protest all you want that you are not trying to sell anything, but people here are not that gullible.
Re: I don't have back pain! I have PF...BGCPed on 7/13/03 at 14:55 (124329)
Thanks C I just smelled a bit of sardine myself. I think mocrosoft should make a template Hi folks,Im a longtime lurker first time poster. Let me tell you about________ an exciting product/book called __________ that changed my life. I am just a regular Joe and dont make anything from this. I just happen to have the website and phone number to buy__________
please nobody yell at me
Re: I don't have back pain! I have PF...Carole C in NOLA on 7/13/03 at 19:16 (124338)
You crack me up! Yes, that would be a great template.
Re: a real cure that worksRebecca R on 7/13/03 at 19:18 (124339)
Different things work for different people. I'm glad this book worked for you and I hope it works for others. My dad has the book, (he actually got it for back pain) so I may take a look at it. However, I seem to be having some success with physical therapy (too early to tell how much). I do not believe that the people here want to be right more than they want to be cured. Most of us are just trying to help each other.
Re: a real cure that worksDorothy on 7/14/03 at 01:02 (124359)
I want to say a few words in defense of rick b.'s recommendation of Healing Back Pain by Dr. John E. Sarno, M.D. Like John, I also read this book when I had acute back problems. Because of rick b.'s post, I took a look at my copy of this book to refresh my memory. It does, indeed, deal with plantar fasciitis and other muscle, tendon and ligament problems. I don't think the sarcasm in the 'cancer' remark was actually called for and could serve to lead people away from something that might help them. An open mind is a good thing. I know nothing about rick b., but my book cover says this about Dr. Sarno: 'Dr. John E. Sarno is a professor of Clinical Rehabilitation Medicine at the New York University School of Medicine and attending physician at the Howard A. Rusk Institute of Rehabilitation Medicine at New York University Medical Center.'
I am going to re-read the book now, with PF in mind, to see what I glean from it. If people object to rick b.'s recommendation and suspect he is trying to sell something, then they could certainly find this book at a library or through inter-library loan, and then decide if they want to purchase it. It is a program described as 'Without drugs - Without Surgery - Without Exercise...' and if the book is borrowed, there is no expense involved. What in the world is there to lose by reading and learning something that might help? Since many people are staying off their feet anyway, maybe reading something of potential usefulness would be a good use of that time.
As others and I have written, Dr. Andrew Weil often recommends Dr. Sarno's book. Although the book title and primary focus is back pain, it does deal with the pain syndrome, of which back pain is one, and PF is likely another. The foundation of the pain syndrome is physical tension in the muscles/tissue caused by emotional factors and the physical tension causes oxygen deprivation to the muscle, tendon and/or ligaments and that causes pain. It is a very interesting theory and one that readers here might want to read about. I think we should all be encouraged to USE our intelligence and powers of analytical thinking. No one is forcing anyone here to buy anything. If all of us had a closed mind to new ideas, we might not have tried the FootTrainers and that would be unfortunate. Dr. Sarno is not without legitimate credentials and a body of research and, to the best of my knowledge, his ideas should not be dismissed so readily - especially by someone who is not even familiar with them.
Re: a real cure that worksDorothy on 7/14/03 at 01:08 (124360)
Sorry - I don't know how to edit my post so I am adding an addendum here:
Please don't take my little synopsis of Dr. Sarno's theory as the accurate description of it. It has been quite a while since I read his book and need to re-read and refresh my memory. I may not have represented it exactly correctly and would not want to mislead anyone.
I would (always) encourage anyone to read something for him/herself and judge for yourself. I am just baffled by the negative reaction to rick b.'s post about his experience with Dr. Sarno's book. How is it any different from a poster saying I tried this or that shoe/orthotic/cream/surgery/etc....? There is one big difference: reading this book cannot hurt you at all and may help.
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/14/03 at 07:57 (124369)
I have this feeling Scott that winning that $250 mil in the Power Ball lottery would have cured a lot of things in my life. I do not think my feet would hurt as much on the beach in Tahiti.
Re: a real cure that worksnancy sc on 7/14/03 at 08:28 (124370)
I was treated by Dr. Sarno at NYU (and read his book) and it did help me tremendously with back pain that I'd had for about two years. The 'treatment' consists of an examination and then a two-session course explaining the physiological mechanism by which the brain translates anxiety into back pain, as well as techniques for short-circuiting this mechanism. It was very successful for me. This was about 15 years ago and I've never had back pain since.
Dorothy's description of his theory is excellent, despite her disclaimer.
Since I've had PF (almost a year, fairly recovered now, but not completely) I've tried to apply the same techniques to the PF as I did for the back pain. However, I have really been very focused on all of the treatments -- stretching, icing, footwear, etc., in fact very pre-occupied with it. If you read the book, you'll find out that it is counter-productive to focus on all of the standard treatments, because it distracts you from what you really have to do, which is to figure out how to cope with the things in life that make you anxious.
Based on the original post here, I plan to re-read the book in the hopes that a similar process is at work with the PF as with the back pain.
I remember reading on this site a post by one of the doctors saying that a lot of PF patients have flare-ups at times of high anxiety. I have even felt pangs of PF pain when I am frightened or anxious. This suggests that there really is validity to what Dr. Sarno and the original poster say about the lack of a physical basis for the pain.
As to whether the back pain and PF are comparable, there one analogy between the back pain and PF that I can think of. Many people with back pain have abnormal MRIs, showing disc degeneration. However, many people with abnormal MRIs have no pain. I am curious whether there are studies showing whether thickened plantar fasciia as seen on an MRI correlates with pain.
I would not discount what the original poster says, based on my back pain experience.
Re: a real cure that worksBevN. on 7/14/03 at 08:28 (124371)
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/14/03 at 10:00 (124380)
I have read that there are people with very thick fascia who have no pain and people with normal looling fascia that have pain.
there is also the medical therory of Dr. Baxter who attributes a lot of PF pain to the Baxter Nerve which lies under the fascia. I personally think PF type pain can result from a variety of causes and there is not now or ever be one magic bullet for its cure.
Re: a real cure that worksCarole C in NOLA on 7/14/03 at 21:58 (124441)
John, ours might not either! If any of us ever win that much we should take the whole heelspurs crowd to a beach in Tahiti (for scientific reasons, of course! LOL) I can just imagine lying there in the sun and floating on my back in the surf right now.... Talk about unwinding! :)
Re: a real cure that worksDorothy on 7/14/03 at 22:39 (124444)
John H.: That may be absolutely true AND in complete accord with what Dr. Sarno's work (as you know, since you said you had read the book) indicates - and one would assume that is because something about having large amounts of money or being on a beach in Tahiti brings you, John, relaxation, peace, ease and all of those states have a positive impact on your muscles, tendons, ligaments/soft tissue. The 'trick' may be to learn how to have the '$250 mil Power Ball lottery winner' be your natural state of mind (even without the actual win, which is of low probability) or Tahiti be your natural state of mind - if those are what would bring you relaxation, peace, ease. The fact is that most people are not going to be lottery winners or spend any time on a beach in Tahiti - so, are they unable to find health and happiness?
You said your back pain resulted from a fall from a helicopter, as I recall, so - just as you listed many possible causes and cures for PF - it is likely that the causes and cures for back pain are many. If that is so, should we eliminate some? Which ones? If what cures or diminishes PF for you is one thing but what cures or diminishes it for someone else is different from yours, should we eliminate yours? The other's?
It does seem reasonable to recognize that if hundreds or thousands of people experience something good from a treatment or a practice, then that treatment or practice is beneficial.
I don't have any interest in what people read or don't read or what shoes they wear or don't wear, but I know what kind of pain I experience and I know that when I read of other people's pain and/or disability, I feel for them most sincerely - and I will share whatever idea or book or shoe or store or vitamin or whatever I have tried or heard of that may help.
I VIVIDLY remember my back pain. It used to be so bad that several times it caused me to pass out in full-blown state of shock. I never want to have that again. I have learned some things that help and I BELIEVE in them because they helped. If I can do the same with this whole foot business, then I am FOR it, not 'agin it.'
I may 'sound' crabby about this, but I am not. Just want to keep doors open, not slam them shut. I don't think the rapid jump to judgment against 'rick b.' or Dr. Sarno's theories by some here was warranted and may keep someone away from a source of help - which, as you wrote, is often specific and unique to individuals or groups of individuals, and variable.
Best wishes to you and to your toe...(I first wrote 'tow.'
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/15/03 at 13:04 (124479)
I thought Dr. Sarno's book to be a good read. I guess many people may have been helped by his book. In my case, I am more of a scientifically what you see is what you get person. While in the business world I attend numerous seminars and read many self help books on such things as The Power of Positive Thinking,etc. I am not very good with the process required by all these self help theories. They appear to work for many people and I wish they could work for me but I tend to want to see the science behind something and see it proved in a lab. That does not mean I do not try a lot of non main stream procedures and products because I do and have. But I recognize going in that it is a shot in the dark which is an almost self defeating statement to start with. I have tried to many off the wall things to even go into for my feet and I would never critisize anyone for anything they try or read.. I do however tell people I suggest they make PF surgery the very last thing they do in the treatment of PF. Some of the Buddahist have convinced me with their control over their temperature,heart beat,etc that there is indeed a lot the mind can do if you can harness control over it. I watched some idiot a few years ago on TV who hypmotized himself and then attempted to remove his own appendicts. He made the incision ok but that is far as he got and the Doctors had to step in and put him to sleep and complete the job.
Re: a real cure that worksrose on 7/15/03 at 15:02 (124491)
This is interesting, BUT....we are all different with various reasons for our sore feet. We all heal in different ways, and hopefully will each find the correct remedy for ourselves. I jus thad surgery, after trying absolutely everything. I have been reading this site for over a year and it has been very helpful. Now, after just two weeks, I am praying that I did the correct procedure to help me become pain free. All I know is that I have done my best and I am very thankful to everybody on this board for their sharing and suggestions,
I too have read a book and applied some of the principles. I know of some folks who have become completely healed through using the techniques in this book. I know others who have not been as fortunate. So, I recommend this book for all of yous still searching for a little less pain. It is called Pain Free by Peter Egoscue. I just wanted to share that since this brought this to my mind. He also has a weekly radio show, which can be accessed by the internet if one is out of the southern California area. He has helped thousands of people overcome chronic painful conditions with feet, hips, back, etc. It is quite interesting. It is on 1170 (KCBQ) at 9:00 am on Saturday mornings.
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/15/03 at 16:40 (124495)
Rose: Interesting you should mention this book. I just ordered it from Barnes & Noble. They did not have it on the shelf and I forget where I read about it. I think it comes in paperback. Have a successful recovery. Did you have surgery through a scope or open surgery?
Re: a real cure that worksDorothy on 7/15/03 at 17:29 (124505)
But that is what is interesting about Dr. Sarno's work - it embodies (no pun intended) the combination of mind-body affects. The tension (emotional/mental) that we experience causes the tissue (muscle/tendon/ligament) to contract and spasm. That cuts off the blood supply, depriving the area of oxygen in the blood = pain. Once we experience pain, that, in turn, begins a cycle repeating the same - also exacerbated by anticipating the pain (fear) which contributes its own kind of tension.
I am wondering if the tension that many of us carry in our backs that is causing the back muscles to tighten up then, in turn, causes the whole 'line' down through the leg, ankle, foot to tense and tighten. One common cause of back problems is tight hamstrings and that can often be relieved by good hamstring stretching. If you just visualize the whole series of interconnected (as you mentioned earlier, leg bone connected to thigh bone...etc.)muscles, tendons, ligaments all the way down the back, leg through to the toes, it is not too much of a stretch (again, no pun intended) to be able to visualize all of the tightening up and then causing pain in one area or all of the 'line.' Plus, for every human being who gets to a 'certain age', the muscles get less flexible, shorter, etc. anyway. Maybe part of the problem with stretching that some PF people experience is that it is too localized, rather than stretching the whole 'line.'
I dunno .... If I knew, I would have a book out to cure everything!
Re: a real cure that worksAndy O on 7/16/03 at 11:07 (124539)
I visit this site to discuss heel pain, not back pain.
Can you recommend a book for heel pain?
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/16/03 at 11:44 (124544)
Andy read Scotts book on this site. That is as good as it gets.There is no better information anywhere than what is available right here on this web site.
Re: a real cure that worksrose on 7/16/03 at 13:01 (124550)
Re: a real cure that worksmarie on 7/16/03 at 22:03 (124598)
I am going to check out all of the mentioned books. I feel well enough to go to the Ann Arbor Art Fair tomorrow!!!! But I would be very interested in these books as I have had lower back pain for what seems like a million years. It is both mental and physical. I slipped a disk in childbirth and it has given me grief ever since. I do find that when I am stressed my back is worse.
I took a graduate class in stress management. We spent a good portion of the class learning self hypnosis techniques. I am not good at keeping things like that a habit. But I must say we all felt absolutely fantastic after every class.
Gotta go my favorite is on...John Stewart and the Daily Show. Laughter is the best medicine.
Plus my son wants to email a girl he is smitten with and I am hogging the computer.
Re: a real cure that worksjohn h on 7/17/03 at 09:55 (124615)
Marie: I mentioned this before but do a search under VAX-D and read about this treatment for low back pain. A center just opened next door to my office and it is run by orthopedic surgeons. I stopped by and looked at the equipment and discussed the treatment with one of the surgeons who works there. Some 25 years ago he did a fusion on my C3/C4 disc which gave me an instant cure. The treatment is non invasive and is FDA approved but like ESWT insurance companies typically do not cover it. The treatment consist if 20 one hour treatments in 20 days. It consist of stretching the spine and opening up the disc space. It is a little more complicated than this but look it over unless you alread have.
Re: a real cure that worksMahatmelissama on 7/17/03 at 18:05 (124660)
I hate it when somebody comes in here with a One shot deal and says it will work for everybody if they just have an open mind.
I am glad to see people better but God made us all DIFFERENT and what works for you may not work for me.
Trust me, I have a strong mind, personality...I am a levitating Californian. I am still stuck having to wear orthotics, get PT...lose weight...etc to get better and it is literally inch by inch that the pain goes away.
Re: a real cure that worksmarie on 7/17/03 at 19:03 (124670)
Re: a real cure that worksDorothy on 7/17/03 at 19:22 (124675)
I love the Ann Arbor Art Fair and used to go every year, purchased several pieces over the years. We have a daughter who graduated from the U of M.not too long ago. Hope your feet and back and all enjoyed that fun event that you said you were going to go to yesterday.
Re: a real cure that worksmarie on 7/17/03 at 20:16 (124680)
The pain goes away so slowly....I like the inch by inch analogy. Everyone is different as we are all aware of.....this group is eclectic for sure. I wish I was one of the lucky ones that had all my symptoms disappear. I am doing so well but I always have to watch out for the TTS gremlins, not to mention the PF aliens that attack when I am having the most fun.
Re: a real cure that worksrick b. on 7/18/03 at 22:38 (124767)
Dorthy ,thanks for your comments. This is all I was suggesting that people do was read a published book that is endorsed by a respected physician (Dr. Weil). I read both of the Dr. Sarno books. The second covers a lot more ground. Personally, I think the first one does a better job of communicating the concept.
I read the books very slowly, say 10 pages a night. I really put a lot of thought into Dr. Sarno's explanation. It just made a lot of sense to me. If you remember from the book, you are suppose to begin all physical activities that you would normally do if you had no injury (because nothing is actually wrong in most cases). This is not an easy thing to accept. I just started slowly, adding a little each day. After a few weeks, I was convinced that there was nothing wrong with my back or arches. I began reviewing my life and when pain episodes ocurred. I was astonished by my track record. In almost every case (over 20 years) there was a major issue in my life.
I would encourage you to read the book again and really be honest with yourself regarding your personality traits, your upbringing, how you deal with anger and stress, and what things your unconscience mind does not want to deal with. I feel like I am trying to convince people that the world is round. Anyway, enough talking, good luck!
Re: a real cure that worksmarie on 7/20/03 at 11:52 (124832)
Thanks Dorothy. I did overdue a little. When the heat started getting to me we left..but at that point I think we were done. I love to go to get new ideas for class projects. I didn't buy much, just a couple small pottery pieces I will use for class projects. I just love Ann Arbor and we will try to go back later this fall.