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Posted by marie on 8/16/03 at 21:50 (127166)

I apologize for having been such a burden to you folks here on this board. One of you has made it clear to me that I am not wanted here and apparently many of you have discussed it quit a bit. I am sorry. Thanks for the kindness that many have shown me in the past. I appreciated the support and caring atttudes of some of the wonderful people who gather here daily.

best wishes to you all,

Re: For Marie

Sharon W on 8/16/03 at 22:30 (127167)


I have no idea what you're talking about, Marie, but I for one certainly do NOT feel that way!


Re: For Marie

Steve G on 8/16/03 at 23:20 (127169)

WHAT?? This is nonsense. I have always found you to be informed and helpful. Where on earth did you get the idea that people want you to leave the board. Like Sharon and others on the board, you have tried to help people you thought could benefit from your experiences. I hope you don't depart.

Re: Marie

Julie on 8/17/03 at 03:14 (127173)

Marie, I've lost your address; please email me.

Re: For Marie

Sharon W on 8/17/03 at 07:04 (127175)


I really hope she won't, too. I found what she is talking about. Looks like a misunderstanding to me... but what do I know, I can't read minds.

I do know that if I thought one or two people wanted me to leave the board, that wouldn't drive me away (unless one of them was Scott R)! In fact, I am just stubborn and contrary enough, I would consider it a reason to STAY.


Re: For Marie

Kathy G on 8/17/03 at 08:21 (127177)

Well, once again, I'm totally in the dark. I seem to spend a lot of time here! Who's making Marie feel as though she needs to leave the boards? Are we facing yet another 'crisis?' I just don't get it. We used to all chat, complain, joke, and exchange ideas and advice in our little community. Ever since the political debacle, we have lost one poster after another. Sometimes it reminds me of the stories my daughter used to tell me about the girls in junior high school and their mini-dramas.

Please, folks, lets not blow a good thing! Everyone needs to lighten up! We're all going to find that we identify with or have a common bond with certain posters more than we do with others. That's called life. When you join an organization, you tend to gravitate toward those with whom you feel the most comfortable and 'hang out' with them. But you don't vote out the other members! This isn't one of those reality shows! On these Boards, as in life, we're going to find some people whom we don't necessarily like as well as others. We're just a microcosm of the real world.

Why don't we all cool off and take a step back and think what Heel Spurs.com represents to each of us and then decide if we want to risk tearing it apart again? Personally, it has given me a chance to take something positive away from a negative circumstance. I have chronically sore feet. From a medical aspect, I've learned what is causing my problem; what I can do about it; what has worked for others and might work for me; and above all, I've gotten an opportunity to hear from people in similar and often worse circumstances. Say what you will, there's still that aspect of personal suffering that begs for someone in a similar situation with whom to commiserate. I've been able to find those people here. This is the one place I can go where I know that someone will truly understand what I mean when I say that the idea of going to get a quart of milk is just more than I can handle today.

From a personal aspect, this website has given me a chance to help newcomers by listening, offering support and hopefully giving them advice based on what I've learned from my time on the Boards. A wonderful bonus has been that I've made friends and acquaintances from all over the world and learned what others lives are like. I truly care what is happening in everybody's life and look forward to checking in nearly every day.

Marie, if you found out that one person at work didn't care for you, would you quit your job? Of course not! You'd stay and figure that you can't please everybody all of the time. Why not do the same here?

We have sore feet; we're not saints. We all have our personal foibles and hopefully, others on the Board will overlook or ignore them just as they would overlook them in colleagues at work or in a social setting.

Okay, I'm finished. My foible, as you can see, is that I tend to preach, for which I apologize. But come one, please, we should all realize that this is Board is kind of a refuge where we can escape and relax. Don't spoil it. If I wanted conflict, I could find it in any number of places in my life. I don't need to come here to seek it out!

Re: Marie

Kathy G on 8/17/03 at 08:40 (127178)

Okay, now I see. I didn't read on to the next page before my above posting. This seems to me to be a tempest in a teapot. Marie was being funny, or that's what she thought. Dorothy took exception to her generalizations. Carole thought that Dorothy was correct.

Good Grief, Folks, this isn't life or death! Maybe Marie really thinks that way. Maybe she doesn't and she should have peppered her post with smiley faces to communicate that her post was in jest. Who cares?

At the end of the day, do we care if Marie humors the men in her life by pretending to like sports? Or, if she was just being facetious, do we care that that Dorothy doesn't 'get' Marie's humor?

Have we come to the point where we need Jimmy Carter to come in and mediate? I repeat, Good Grief! 8-(PIPE)

Re: none

Aly R on 8/17/03 at 11:40 (127186)

Dear Marie,

I haven't read all the messages that lead to your post 'none', but I can honestly say you have been one of the most pleasant posters on the board as far as I'm concerned. I always look forward to your posts and you have put a smile on my face on more than one occasion.

I hope that you will disregard whoever it was that made you feel this way, and stay! You would really be missed...


Re: Marie

john h on 8/17/03 at 12:41 (127191)

Well put Kathy. In the big scheme of things this is a blip on a grain of sand on the beach. After all this I suspect Dorthy is still in pain, Marie's feelings are hurt, and none of uus feel better.

Re: For Marie

john h on 8/17/03 at 12:51 (127192)

Marie: It seems that early on you and I were at odds about various things but we survived it and found we had a lot in common. Strange that you and I are exchanging some trival non contintious small talk and the next thing I know a war has errupted and I am defending you and nothing has become something. If there was ever something that seemed trival to me on the board this is it but I recognize other people view the world from a different angle than me..I do think people on occasion read things into post that are not there and I think this is a good example. If I went to war over things like this I would have probably had more wives than Henry XIII and it would be my head in a basket.

Re: Marie

john h on 8/17/03 at 12:53 (127193)

Julie my long lost Greek travler where have you been. Hiking in Crete I bet.

Re: Marie

Max K on 8/17/03 at 13:37 (127195)

Marie, I didn't know what the hell you're talking about, so I went back through the messages and found a thread that I guess you are referring to. Well, I believe that men and women are very different. Men and women can make progress relating to each other by learning about their innate behavioral differences (rather than pretending it's pure social conditioning). Your comment illustrated one way in which these differences show themselves. I like to read little bits of insight like that, it helps me understand women better:

>Re: Decorating fun (in a teeny sort of way)
>Posted by marie on 8/14/03 at 16:26
>John...Haven't you learned about women yet. We enjoy going to athletic >events, hunting etc....not because we like it but because we want to be >with our men. That's why we don't understand it when we want our men to >do girl stuff with us...when a man saids no way it's like saying 'I don't >want to be with you.'


Re: John

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:25 (127317)

I agree with you totally on this one. I saw it as trivial as well and wanted to try to understand where the others were coming from. You're right sometimes people only see what they are looking for and that was the case here. I saw no war but I did see some hurtful comments. It's one thing to have differing opinions and another to tear someone apart because of that opinion. I have no criticism of Dorthy or Carole I accept them and their personalities.

Dorothy tends to look at bigger issues...I was talking about behavioral science and I was being goofy. Women have the right to equal opportunity and choices. What choices they make is their business. But that doesn't have anything to do with behavior. I don't just make this stuff up I have taken many many graduate classes on this very subject. I realize that most of the folks here don't research behavior in the same way I have and I should have maybe said some women or research shows but to be honest it wasn't that big of a deal. What's really funny is that some of the gals think I pretend to like sports giggle, giggle...my hubby is not a sports person at all and he knows I don't care for professional sports. We both love high school football & girls basketball. When we were first dating I invited him over for dinner. My hubby has food phobias. He hated cheese, all vegetables and all foriegn foods. Well I made tacos. I love tacos...I love cheese and vegetables. So in order to eat dinner with me and not offend me he ate the tacos...his first ever. After 25 years he still eats my tacos. His mom still shakes her head and saids 'How did you ever get him to eat this stuff?' Love....maybe a little lust thrown in.

I have segregated art classes at my new school. I currently have 28 eighth grade girls and like it or not they behave in very different ways than boys. They bully differently. Girls tend to bully emotionally...like they won't talk to someone [-( , they love to give the 'hmmph..' eye role 8-(PIPE) , they make gossipy comments to hurt someones feelings because they know it will get back to their victim and so on and so forth. Jealousy plays a big role in female bullying. Some will hate someone just because they are prettier, better atheletes, have a cute boyfriend, talented etc. If I had a dollar for every blonde joke I've heard I'd be rich. Interestingly some women who will object to a dirty joke or a sexist joke will allow a blonde joke. Why is that? Of course after I tell a first brunnette joke they're usaually done. Out of the 28 girls I had 6 that bullied in the manner I just wrote about today. I had 2 that did the hmmph eye roll at the girls across from them, three that whispered gossipy comments back and forth just loud enough so the other table could hear them, and one that no one would sit with or talk too.

Gees I can't wait until next 9 weeks when I have the section of 28 eighth grade boys. Pray for me.

Thanks you're a valued friend. I don't have any grudges to anyone...I did have some ghosts to clean out of my closet...Judy will understand that one.


Re: Max

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:26 (127319)

Thanks Max! I'm glad you got it!


Re: none

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:27 (127320)


What dorm did you live in at I.U.?

Re: Marie

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:28 (127321)

You always make me laugh!


Re: Julie

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:29 (127322)


I don't know what I'd do without my heelspurs guardian angel....thanks for setting me straight.

Re: For Marie

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:30 (127323)

Just had some feelings I needed to express...I don't plan on leaving....just very grateful to have such nice folks here.

Re: Sharon

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:32 (127324)

You always give me strength...thanks! I needed that last bit advice!

Re: Kathy

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:34 (127325)

Forgot to put your name....but you do make me smile. Hope you have better days in your future.

Re: none

Aly on 8/19/03 at 16:35 (127326)

I actually lived in off-campus housing. Always wished I'd had the dorm experience, but alas I didn't start college until age 23 and couldn't imagine living with all those 18 year olds. Wish I'd gone at 18, I'm sure it would have been a lot of fun!

I heard that IU was just ranked the #3 top party school - I wonder what it was when I was there!

Re: John

Aly on 8/19/03 at 16:38 (127329)

Very interesting about the behavior of the girls in your class. I'd be curious to see what you have to say about the boys and how they bully each other - different emotional tactics? Just physical threat? I think it's all very interesting... :-?

Re: none

marie on 8/19/03 at 16:46 (127330)

It was #1 when I was there. That ranking had a lot to do with my decision to go there. I lived in a house off campus on High St. My hubby and I had our first date at Mother Bear's Pizza. He forgot his wallet and I had to pay for it. Our favorite hangouts were the Bluebird and Nick's. I have been to alot of colleges and I have to say I.U. has the prettiest campus.

Re: John

Suzanne D on 8/19/03 at 16:47 (127331)

Aly, my first graders exhibit the same basic tendencies as the high schoolers. The boys will get mad and punch one another if it gets too heated; then in a short while, it's over, and they are friends again.

Girls go in the bathroom and 'divide up', saying such things as, 'You can't be my friend if you are hers', or 'I won't invite you to my birthday party if you don't...'. etc.

I've noticed these things for years and have always thought a rough bunch of little boys was easier to handle than a rough bunch of little girls.

Suzanne :)

Re: John

Aly on 8/19/03 at 16:54 (127332)

Wow, how nasty. I guess it's something I experienced growing up (and no doubt took part in) but it wasn't a difference I was particularly aware of. It makes you wonder how much we have yet to learn about the differences in makeup of the female brain vs the male brain; if such behavior is already present before puberty, then one can't just point to the hormones that are released as a child develops. Fascinating stuff.

Re: none

Aly on 8/19/03 at 16:59 (127334)

Ha, so you were a party girl, were you! :) You brought back a flood of memories - Mother Bear's Pizza! What a great place. I always am describing the movies in the back area, where you could watch a good movie while they serve you beer and pizza. Wish there was a place like that near me! And I have a few blurry memories of the Bluebird & Nick's too. :p

My dad is a professor at the music school there - hence my choice of schools! - but I've only been back for one visit since I graduated in '96. I have very fond memories of the place. And yes, it's beautiful there...

Re: John

marie on 8/19/03 at 17:03 (127335)

Boys posture alot when they bully. It's kinda cute when their little but not so cute when they are bigger than you. They pull their shoulders up and try to make themselves look taller. The use their size to bully. Boys are just as image conscience as girls. Size = dominant. Of course that changes later as they all begin to grow more. Boys don't get as rapped up in social issues that often. They can have a knock down drag out fight and then give each other a ride home at the end of the school day. Boys have a very tough time trying to figure out what it means to be a man. As much as women have advanced and freed themselves to have choices made available to them boys don't have as many options. It's especially hard if they don't have a positive male role model. It is even tougher for a boy when mom is not around. I believe that men need a woman as a friend, wife, mother so they can give themselves permission to be gentle, kind and loving....not exactly the image they want to have in front of a bunch of guys. It's the Ying/Yang thing.

High school teachers will tell you the worst physical fights are between girls...they go balistic and they hold grudges until they die. In fact I was just talking to a teacher today about that.

I interact with about 200 kids a day....they are all the same. Being different is just a myth. We all need acceptance, friendship, and the right to make choices.

Re: For Marie

marie on 8/19/03 at 17:07 (127336)

Thanks Steve...I'm ok. I am an artist so I do express my feelings...and I was very hurt. I appreciate your kind words. I am fine no grudges and I'm ready to rock n roll.

Re: none

marie on 8/19/03 at 17:25 (127342)

You have found me out! :D

My major was Art Ed and Frisbee! I was the only girl that could throw with the boys in Dunn Meadow. I'm sure more girls throw today. My hubbys biggest worry about my feet was not being able to throw with me.

I was a radio announcer for WQAX which I doubt is around. I love the blues so I had a Monday night show that they aired in most of the bars as that was their down night. That was when I found out that you should never use your real name on the air. Too many people knew who I was and I'd get calls all the time from strange people.

I.U. was a fun time. I met lots of cool people who I love to this day.

Re: John

john h on 8/19/03 at 18:11 (127347)

I really do not know about girls but boys can have a fist fight today and play catch tomorrow. Generally speaking grudges are not carried very long. I was a summer consulor for 8-10 year old boys for two years and one year coached a girls basketball team in the church for girls the same age. Some general truths about boys/men: Men are bigger, faster and stonger than women, women live longer than men, women go to the doctor more than men in this country, women can have babies men cannot, studies indicate there are some academic subjects women are more adept at and some men are more adept at, men keep their emotions more to themselves than women,men commit more murders than women, I do not know the most current situation but women did control most of the wealth/money in this country, men are more war like than women, and on and on. In recent years some would like to promote men and women as being just the same. By nature, by genetics, and by culture in this country we are different which is as it should be so when we make generalities about men and women no one should be offended unless it is intended to offend. If I were to look back at all my post over the past 4-5 years I would find many where I would say 'women are-----' or 'men are----' If these post were taken literally I would be cut up and fed to the gators. We have become so politically correct in recent years you have to think over what you say several times.

Re: John

marie on 8/19/03 at 19:47 (127352)

Understanding the differences is what liberates us. That doesn't mean that there are individuals who aren't the norm. When I look back on my life I did alot of firsts that most girls would have never considered. for instance in 1969-70 I played football. I was a halfback. That was 7th and 8th grade.....the age when girls are a little bigger, as soon as I was outsized I quit. I played football because I loved the game and not because I was a girl trying to be a boy. I was one of 25 women who who for the first time in the history of Ford Motor Co. went to work in the factory. I needed the job for college. I didn't think about making history I just thought I can do that so I did. Yikes 2000 men and 25 women....if you don't think we were harassed you're mistaken...and I'm not talking about a slip of the tounge off comment...the real deal. John you are correct about strength. I had this one job in the plant that I had too go up a ladder and down into a machine. There was a little window were a truck transmission would go into. My job was to pull it in get it in place and then pull the handle to lock it in . It was all cool but for the life of me I could not pull that darn handle. So my forman, who was a large African American and a former college football player climbed inside the machine with me and pulled the handle all day. Man I was cussing like a sailor I was so mad that I couldn't pull that stupid handle.

I have never felt that I couldn't do something because I was a woman it never occured to me. I don't think of myself as a woman artist but just as an artist.

Re: Suzanne

marie on 8/19/03 at 20:13 (127354)

So the little ones are just as bad. I've got alot to learn about elementary.

I am going to do a unit on an artist named Faith Ringhold and her book Tar Beach. I was able to attend a lecture she gave some years ago in Cleveland. She really made me think about the aspect of women having a culture unique to themselves. She is probably one of the best speakers I have ever heard. Her personal story about growing up in Harlem, coming to terms with her African American heritage and focusing on the culture of being a woman was memoriable.

Have you heard of her?

Re: Suzanne

Suzanne D on 8/19/03 at 21:04 (127356)

Yes, I have that book! I love the artwork. At my old school, we had very few black children, but one year I had a little African American boy who was first a foster child and then adopted by white parents. His adopted mom was very interested in making sure that we had stories and pictures of black children, and I tried hard to find good ones. That's one of the books I bought that year.

I haven't heard Faith Ringhold speak, but I love to hear and meet children's book authors. I have heard Steven Kellogg, Patricia Polocca (sp? - my favorite speaker), Bill Martin, Jr., and several others through the years. These may not be familiar to you as they write for young children, but they inspire me. Books and reading are my love at school.

Suzanne :)

Re: John

Dorothy on 8/19/03 at 22:25 (127363)

Women have been working as factory workers at Ford Motor Co. since at least the 1930s. They have been working at Ford (or 'Fords' as Ford employees call it) in other capacities, 'stenos' for example, for much longer than that.

May 2003Pioneers at Phoenix Mill
First-ever all-female factory to become a museum

by Jennifer John

In the 1930s, Charles A. Lindbergh toured Ford's Phoenix Mill plant near Detroit.

Doris Avis, an assembly line worker and just 18 at the time, remembers the legendary U.S. aviator.

'The girls were so excited to see the colonel we couldn't even work,' said Avis, 88.

Formerly a parts plant for the Ford Model T, Phoenix Mill was the first-ever all-female factory, and the first one where women made the same wage as men.

Phoenix Mill opened in 1922 and employed only single or widowed women, or women whose husbands were injured in the war. They made $8 a day, unheard of at the time.

The history-making factory will soon be converted into a museum honoring women who were pioneers in the auto industry.

Wayne County Commissioner Lyn Bankes directs the project.

'The museum will tell the story of the role women played in the auto industry and in the establishment and the success of labor unions, as well as the important role women played in World War II,' she said.

After the UAW organized Ford Motor Co., women could work there regardless of marital status.

'The UAW coming in changed the whole industry,' Avis said. 'It gave people more freedom and other things like lunch breaks and bathroom breaks, which we never got.'

The mill closed in 1948.

'Mr. Ford used to pay us in $2 bills,' said Avis, who worked at the mill from 1933 to 1944 and eventually became chief clerk in charge of time cards. 'I made more my first day than I had working 40 hours as a waitress at a hotel.

'I'm so glad they're doing this because it will mean so much to the women who worked there all those years ago.'

Avis still lives near the mill and will contact all the surviving women who worked there to see what they'd like to donate to the museum.

June Hudson, also of Plymouth, said, 'It's a fine idea. I think it will be a big attraction for people and a great way for younger generations to learn about our area's history.' Hudson, 81, worked at the mill from 1942 to 1944.

Bankes said the county has set aside $500,000 over the next five years to help finance the project. It will need an estimated $1.5 million more, raised through donations and fund-raisers such as the Automobile Heritage Freedom Trail bus tours, which resumed this spring.

For more information on the Phoenix Mill Women's Museum, call 313-224-0946.

Underground Railroad Station

In addition to honoring the women autoworkers and showcasing Michigan's automobile heritage, the museum will also highlight the role of the Wayne County men and women who helped blacks escaping slavery during the Civil War. It will house items gathered from former workers and their families, and the Plymouth Historical Museum will lend some of its collection. A Belleville quilt-maker will assist with the Underground Railroad aspect. Secret codes were embedded in quilts and quilted pillowcases to instruct escapees in their movements north. Noted African-American author Serena Strother Wilson will aid in preparing the exhibits.

Source: Wayne County Department of Public Services, Division of Parks.

copyright 2003 International Union, UAW

Contact Us Top of Page

Jennifer John
Doris Avis, 88, who worked at Phoenix Mill from 1933 to 1944, holds a photo of two workers from the 1920s.

Wayne State University Reuther
Archives of Labor and Urban Affairs
Women Workers

The Phoenix Mill workers had to be unmarried and undergo training in the art of homemaking, rules that Henry Ford enforced strictly. The facility's workers produced electrical parts, voltage regulators and switches. The women who worked at the mill were single or widowed because Ford objected to married women working outside the home. That changed after the workforce was unionized.

Women were paid the same as men, a practice unheard of at the time. At its peak, Phoenix Mill employed 70 women. During World War II, the mill also produced ID badges and electrical wiring for the M-7 gun director.
UAW Home

Re: John

JudyS on 8/19/03 at 22:35 (127365)

John h- first, I love you dearly but, with lots and lots of respect, I disagree. I will always object to generalization - here and everywhere else. But I focus, in this post, on that regarding gender.

Why? Because MOST generalizations regarding the differences between men and women are archiac and are hurtful to women. And most generalization of same, especially in a public forum, does nothing but procreate those archiac attitudes - even when they are in jest or are light-hearted they succeed in supporting, to some extent, outdated notions of what women 'are'.

Also because I am an individual. There is no one in the world like me and I flatly refuse to be slotted in to anyone's mold of what they think I am because I'm a woman or a Californian or a left-hander or an Independant voter, etc. etc. Most generalizations, if you think about it, are negative.

Frankly, in my lifetime, what our culture has thought I should be in any given year did nothing but frustrate me and limit my personal growth. I have been hurt far too many times in my life because of generalizations and social expectations. And not because I want to be more male than female - perish the thought! I treasure my feminity greatly and I love my chosen role of homemaker - but I enjoy some activities that have traditionally been those of the male species and was always limited in them because of narrow social standards/generalizations that wanted to arbitrarily define proper behavior for women or negatively label those (generalizing) like me who didn't fall within those behavioral parameters.

There are very few generalizations regarding gender that cannot be disproven and, as you've noted, they are mostly physical. As far as the social behavior of little girls and little boys, well, MOST of it is social conditioning with generations of practice. Some of it is parents, teachers and role models putting their heads together and confirming with oneanother that their boys behave differently than their girls - then cite examples which are nearly ALL a result of social conditioning over generations. Girls whisper, gossip and ostracize because that's what they watched their mothers, grandmothers, TV models, etc. do all their lives - there's nothing natural about that. Boys are behaviorly tougher because they've been told all their lives to 'be a man' and then have watched other men (especially those on TV) behave in aggressively. I suspect that, without that kind of modeling, they may chose more than not to work out differences peacefully - it's inately easier, and inately smarter, to do that with aggressiveness being the last resort - even girls can reach that last resort. When role models have these discussions, they are helping to procreate archiac generalizations - in my ever-so-humble opinion. How we deal with boys and girls now, how they 'are' now, is more a result of eons of social conditioning than it is of natural occurance.

Suppose, just suppose, that no one ever, ever taught or modeled little boy and little girl behavior? What would happen? First, I think, boys and girls would each do whatever EACH wanted to do because choice is, in fact, an inately individual thing - and no one would question their choices. If I'd venture a guess I'd say many boys would be 'hunters' and 'protectors' because of inate physical capabilities, and many girls would be keepers of hearth and home because most are inately nurturing. But, SOME boys and SOME girls probably wouldn't want to act in those roles or some would want certain parts of each kind of role and that should be OK - because INDIVIDUALISM is the first inate thing there is. However, until more recently, it hasn't been OK.

That is why I object to generalization in a public forum - because so much of it is negative and archaic and we have worked for so long to change social attitude. Yes, men and women are different but a huge number of those differences are socially born and can only be socially eliminated through new attitudes. Continuing to voice outdated generalizations in a public forum only sets the wheels of progress in reverse. Whether or not there is 'girly' or 'boyly' behavior, what we need to focus on, as role models, is INDIVIDUALISM and grow, grow, grow away from labeling and behavioral expectations based on archaic generalizations. Generalizations hurt - whether they be regarding gender, politics or anything else. We've seen that here several times. and it has nothing to do with political correctness, it has to do with respect.

My dearest John h, you have inadvertently provided me with a soap box and I now return it to you.... please know that my words here are MY words only and are not directed at any individual anywhere.

Re: John

Dorothy on 8/20/03 at 03:31 (127369)

Yes....but....I was recently reading a piece about John O'Hara, the writer that many writers cite as their favorite writer, although his work has been neglected. It was said of John O'Hara,(like many writers of note, I would suggest), that he had a difficult personality and carried many grudges and carried them deeply and forever. And we hear men quite often talk or write about childhood or high school when they were bullied or snubbed or ostracized and it hurt or frightened them then and they still carry the strong memory of it well on into adulthood.

Well, I remembered this, supposedly old and Irish, saying and I have always enjoyed it and thought it particularly suitable for some of the bruised feelings and tender egos we have been experiencing - and especially good for all the dear Foot People. It goes:

May those who love us love us
And those who don't love us
May God turn their hearts,
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So we'll know them by their limping.
--Irish Prayer

Re: John

john h on 8/20/03 at 12:10 (127397)

Sweet Judy. I realize that generalizations may stem from many different causes including culture, location, family, genetics, etc. I do not suggest generalizations are goood or bad but in fact are used in many ways which can in some instances serve a higher purpose. Yes, there are generalizations that are harmful but certainly not all. If I state that 'African Americans generally have higher blood pressure than whites' it is indisputable and from this researchers can proceed to find out why. If I state 'Orientals generally score higher on the ACT's than whites' that is indisputable and should really not offend anyone. It may be helpful for us to understand why this is so. My point is that the word 'generalization' has become a word that fires up emotions when problay most people use it in a very non demeaning manor. Scientific inquiry begins with a generalization which is merely a principle, statement, or idea having general application.Some synoyms for generalize are hypothosize or theorize. Generalizations are in themselves not bad. They can be depending on how they are used and intended. I would think in the course of a day of teaching teachers must have to make many generalizations. It has just become a 'hot' word in our current society. Another such word is 'diversity'. The mere mention of this word can fire people up when in fact there are some countries were diversity is a very negative concept. Japan is a very non diverse country. I lived a year in Iceland in the 50's and the Icelandic government did not allow African Americans to be stationd there. They really did not like the Americans there very much either and wanted to remain non diverse. We will always have generalizations as everything is not black or white. There are shades of gray and as the word implies there are generally always exceptions. Men are generally biger, stronger and faster than women but there have always been women biger, stronger, and faster than me even when I was at my prime. I think one should look at the intent of the generalization. If I said (and i am not) that most women do not use a chain saw I would probably be right but I know that would not apply to you and the statement should not be offensive. Dusty Baker the prominent African American Manager of the Cubs recently made a statement that Blacks can generally tolerate heat better than the white players. The media was all over him for this. I do not know that to be true or not but I bet there is some science to suggest that is true. Most African American Organizations let that pass and the media dropped it rather quick. I understand and respect your position. Since we have a number of teachers here do you not on a frequent basis have to make all sorts of generalizations in course of teaching children. Almost any time you state Mommy's do this or Daddy's do that you are generalizing. Now be sweet Judy and do not eat me alive because you are faster, stronger, but not bigger than me. And another thing men make better fighter pilots than women!! Take that and smoke me...

Re: John

john h on 8/20/03 at 12:32 (127402)

'Little girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.
Little boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails'

A generalization that should not offend anyone because it was not intended to. I do not know if there is any evidence to suggest that little boys carry grudges less than little girls. I think we have some teachers who I respect who deal with little girls and boys every day reporting their observations.

Re: John

JudyS on 8/20/03 at 16:22 (127430)

.....do chain saws come in pink? :D

Re: John

JudyS on 8/20/03 at 16:27 (127431)

Well my friend, I could argue with a few of your well-made points but...I'll save it for the next time we have a beer together! That would be a better time and place and make for invigorating conversation! :)>-

Re: John

marie on 8/20/03 at 16:41 (127434)

Thanks Dorothy,

I never knew there was an all woman factory for Ford. That is so interseting.

The only women that worked in the factories (general population or integrated) prior to the mid 70's worked as cafeteria workers, house cleaning, and some nurses. I am sure there were probably some other jobs that women did as well that were union jobs. And of course there were women in the front offices, clerks and such. But out of the 2000 people Ford emplyed in the plant only about 30 where women (cafeteria workers and house cleaners)that were allowed to be members of the UAW. Each week they added 25 women to the plant until there were 150 women dispursed throughout the factory. The men were PO'd. They thought women were taking jobs from men and that they would be forced to do all the heavy physical labor as they thought women couldn't do it. I was threatened twice...to be raped in the parking lot. One of my friends who threw shotput for Ball State was threatened daily. She was very strong and I think she was a threat to them and their job security at least that's what they thought. It was kept a secret as to who my father was because I didn't want to be treated differently. The secret was kept until the last day, then some of my fellow employees told the forman who my dad was....he didn't cuss at me once the whole day. All of the women were laid off when the oil embargo hit. I have no idea if women work in the plant now or not....after one summer I stayed in college and never looked back.

I worked in the Ford plant in Indianapolis, IN. My father was a retired Ford executive he went to Ford when they purchased Autolite and so are both of my brothers one in marketing and the other in finance.. I can still by a Ford on the A plan.

Re: Education is data driven

marie on 8/20/03 at 17:14 (127437)

I think we are confusing generalization with norms. Norms are data driven. I spent last year in a course researching bullying behavior. It is documented. We spend many countless hours going through teacher's discipline write ups figuring percentages. For instance of the write ups for disrespect during the 2001-2002 school year at the high school approximately 75% were Freshmen boys. That norm fluctuated only slightly from the previous 2 years. That told us that we needed to focus our attention on 1.) why this was happening and 2) how can we correct it. Many schools have committee's that just sit around and compile data like this. Educators are data driven. It's required by the 'No Child Left Behind' act. That is the purpose of graduation qualifying exams....DATA. My information on bullying and the types of bullying came from Dr. Applebaum of the Applebaum Institute/ Texas & the graduate course that ran in conjunction with it was 'How to Handle the Hard to Handle student' with the University of the Pacific in California. I do observe alot of behavior as do all teachers. Teachers in general don't make up alot of stuff but we aren't perfect either. As a teacher I encourage all my students to think successfully and approach life with a can do attitude, both boys and girls. This is 2003 everyone can be successful if they strive for it. It's nothing like what it was in 1975 when I graduated from high school. But than again I never felt that I couldn't do something because I was a woman. Oh well it's time for us all to have a beer and relax.

Re: John

marie on 8/20/03 at 17:24 (127439)

That's funny because one of my eighth grade girls told me today 'that boys were like sugar it tastes really good at first but if ya have to much it makes ya throw up.'

Yes it's going to be an interesting nine weeks. I have my hands full.

Re: John

john h on 8/20/03 at 18:17 (127452)

Marie I still carry a scar on my head where Betty Greenwood hit me in the head with a rock in the 7th grade. I also still have a visable piece of lead in my upper arm where Peggy Savage turned around and stabbed me with a pencil when I pulled her pigtails in the second grade. My wife says I deserved it. You got to watch out for those little girls especially those that are not made of sugar and spice.

Re: John

john h on 8/20/03 at 18:40 (127454)

During WWII factories were full of women doing nearly all the jobs men could do. Many of the aircraft flown to Europe during the war were flown there by women. With some aircraft you on occasion need pure brute strength to fly it durin an emergecy. A UH-1 Huey of which there are thousands has controls that are hydraulic driven much like power steering in your car. If you lose hydraulics you have to physically move the rotor head and big blades against all the aerodynamic forces involved. In such cases for me to push down on the Collective which controls rotor pitch it took all the strength I had. If I did not have a harness and seat belt on for leverage I do not think it could be done unless you were extremely powerful. Women were not flying UH-1's when I was in the service but I think they do now. I am not sure a 5'1' 120 woman would have the strength to do this. When flying a 4 engine bomber like the B-17 and lose two engines on one side once again you have to be an animal to have the leg strength to hold the rudder in and keep it straight. Even in powerful fighter like the old P-51 when you take off the engine develops a tremendous amount of torque until you build up enough speed for aerodynamic forces to take over. It takes some real leg power to hold it straight. I think all todays modern aircraft can be flown equally well by both men and women as if you lose hydraulic assist no human could fly the aircraft due the high speed and forces put on the controls. Actually many of the flight controls merely direct the computer to move the controls so strength is not neary the factor it once was. I was looking at the SR-71 on display at the museum at Eglin and this old 60's aircraft still holds the worlds speed record for coast to coast flight. To me it is still the most awsome looking aircraft I have ever seen. Known as the Blackbird. I think I noticed on the plaque in front of it that a military woman flew it to Eglin. This plane flew on the edge of space and the pilots dressed like astronauts. I guess most of you know a computer flys the spacecraft in for most of the flight and could probably land it unassisted if need be.

Re: Judy

marie on 8/20/03 at 20:02 (127473)

I do understand what you mean about individuality. I thought I'd share this story with you.

A few years a go I had a young girl in one of my classes that wanted to be a marine. Whenever we'd talk about careers she'd pipe right up and declare her desire to be a marine. She was average size, on the wrestling team and lifted weights every day. She wanted to be in good shape. A pretty nice kid all the way around. One day towards the end of her senior year she showed up early for class in tears and asked to speak to me in private. Apparently the Guidance Counselor, a man in his fifties told her the marines was no place for a girl and she needed to pick another direction. I looked at her and said 'You'd better toughen up if you're going to be a marine.' She looked up and gave me a big hug. The last time I heard from her she loved the marines and was doing well. So of course everyone is unique, thank goodness.

Re: Judy

JudyS on 8/20/03 at 20:14 (127484)

Good story, Marie! I have a similar one. I had a particular softball player when I was coaching high school. She was Hispanic and, I might add, a remarkably beautiful young lady. She was already fighting some older standards in her culture by choosing to be a ball player. She was a senior and told me she was going to join the Marines upon graduation. I looked at her and said 'You're going to go for Officer Candidate School, right?'. She said no - she didn't think she could do that and hadn't even considered it.
About a year later I saw her working in a local theater. Turns out she elected to go to college instead and get involved in ROTC so that when the time came she could enter the Marines as an officer!
BTW - like you, I never, ever once in my life thought I couldn't do something because I was female. It's battling all those 'others' who didn't agree with my assessment that got me down! :)

Re: John

marie on 8/20/03 at 20:18 (127485)

Well I still have dirt embedded in a scar on my knee when Billy Stratsferd tackled me during a game of touch football in the seventh grade. I guess he thought tackling was touching. Of course I got him back. During practice I punched him in the mouth. I still have the scars on my knuckles from that as well.

Re: John

marie on 8/20/03 at 20:26 (127487)

My mom was signed up to get training to work on airplanes but then she met my dad who was in the army. Because of WWII folks did some crazy stuff. My parents knew each other for 10 days before they got married. Nine mos. later my brother was born.

After my folks were both deceased we began going through some old files. We found several letters my father had written to his parents and to his brother while in the army. The letters to his brother were about chasing dames and drinking beer and the letters to his folks were about church service and such. I never thought of my Dad as keeping things from his parents much less chasing dames and drinking beer. He always said he hated beer.

Re: Judy

marie on 8/20/03 at 20:40 (127489)

You must have planted a seed in her mind.

I still get together with my 3 closest friends from high school in Indy every other year. I marvel at all of us because we are each doing just what we wanted. One is a network designer for a large pharmacetical company, she has been quoted in PC World, the next is a research scientist she locates enzymes that attach to certain medications so they will absorb into your blood stream she is at the same pharmaseutical co., the last one owns and operates a successful glass replacement company with about 45 employees. Fortunately all our husbands play guitar so they like to hang out together while we're doing our thing. Funny how all our hubby's are musicians.....cause we like to rock-n-roll. Can't say we're wealthy but we are all following our dreams.