Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonPosted by Max K on 8/20/03 at 14:07 (127412)
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonPeter R on 8/20/03 at 15:46 (127422)
There will never be a negotiated peace in the middle east. If there was one Israeli and one Palestinian left in the worls they would try to kill each other. Peace cannot be achieved when so many generations have been taught to hate.In addition, when fanatics destroy the teachings of what was originaly a peaceful religion all hope, in my opinion, is lost. Solution- dam world opinion and push the killers of innocent Israeli women and children into a corner of the desert and wall them off until they cease to exist. The next time an innocent jewish child, man or woman is murdered by a radical believing in the corrupted form of the Muslim religion, all their buildings should be destroyed, all the water and electricity destroyed, the entire infrastucure of the palestinians should be lain waste and their land turned into a useless wasteland. And if that is not enough to stop them then you do what you would do if your home was to become infested with disease bearing rats- YOU KILL THEM ALL>
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/20/03 at 17:42 (127444)
You are starting to make some sense. The problem in the middle east is that Israel doesn't use the real power that they have. Along that note either does the United States.
Think of me as crazy but if the USA had used tactical nuclear weapsons in afganistism there wouldn't be a UN Building blowing up.
If is my opinion that in order to stop terrorism you must use force so great that the other side is in FEAR
I have been told that one of the reason Iraq defeated Iran was that Sadam
used chemical weapson shot into the camps of the potential suicide soldiers. They didn't see the weapons coming other saw the fear when they died. We must use such overwhelming force that the terrorist FEAR us
A nuclear weapon properly used could do just that.
I have never seen peace without total destruction or defeat of the enemy!!!
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonPeter R on 8/20/03 at 17:47 (127446)
Dr. Z- You are the man- You are a stand up guy and not be afraid to say what everbody is too timid to say
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonjohn h on 8/20/03 at 18:12 (127449)
Nuclear weapons are not a good detterent against radical terriorst. It might be against state driven terriorism. When you have a group of people who are not only willing but find glory in dying for their cause nuclear weapons are of little use. There are probably some of the terriorist who would welcome a nuclear attack. What nuclear weapons seem to have done is to bring the stop to world wars because one of these could be the last war. The middle eastern states know Israel has nuclear weapons and more importantly they know that when push comes to shove and the survival of Israel is concerned they will use them. Our former Israeli Air Force Officer who posted on our board has told me on more than one occasion that Israel would destroy the entire middle east if they were about to be over run and I believe it and more important the Arabs beleive it. As long as radical terriorist exist in the middle east who cannot be controlled by their own government I see no solution on the horrizon. Looks to me like the best idea at the moment is for Israel to continue building that electronic fence around the country. Terriorist do not follow George Pattons words of 'we do not want to die for our country. Let the other bastards die for their country'. This is not the exact quote but close enough. Yes I do think the Palestinans need their own country just as Israel did but unfortunately both nations share some of the same holy grounds which both must have access to. Strange that religion should be a major factor in preventing peace but that has been common throughout history.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonmarie on 8/20/03 at 18:44 (127455)
I can certainly understand the frustration of the middle east turmoil. But never a nuclear assault. I don't think it to be an effective solution or deterent. I can't say I know the solution. I do think Israel has the right to defend itself if push comes to shove. I disagree with our governments criticism of the wall Israel is building, until the Palestinians can control there terrorists they should not be allowed in Israel. A seperate state for Palestine would give some hope to the situation but who gets the rights to which sacred religous lands?
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/20/03 at 19:13 (127460)
Is it a fair assumption that the majority of terrorist on some levels are state sponsored. Where do the weapons come from?. Who trains the terrorists?
You need money? Just make one example out of one govenment in the middle east and I think that terrorist will be dramically reduced.
If is my opinon that the palestinans don't deserve a homeland. They were given a chance back in 1948 with the UN partition and all they have done is make war war war.
Israel is the only country in the world that wins wars and defeats enemies only to have the entire world force them to return land for peace.
I don't see the Arab League of Nations doing anything to raise the standards of living for the Palestinian people. Do you know that the land of palestine doesn't exists. It was a name given by the Roman to what is now the state of Israel. The Romans named the land palestine to shame the Israelites after defeat by the Romans
The only way there is going to be real peace is for total defeat of the PLO by the country of Israel. No PLO army. Let the Arab brothers give money to these people and give them jobs etc. No weapsons of any kind should be allowed in the area called palestine.
I repeat peace will come with total defeat and disarmament by Israel.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/20/03 at 19:23 (127461)
Let's take a look at how these sacre sites were handled before 1967. Could Christians and Jews go to their religious sites?? No. Jordon prevented Jews to travel to the Western Wall. They made it very difficult if not impossible for Christians to travel and visit. I am on a roll !!!
The PLO must be destroyed and Arafat must be put to sleep
Israel must defeat Hamas, PLO and remove all weapon in order to have peace. They should allow a police force but no weapons of any kind that can used against the state of Israel. On second though just get rid of the entire group period.
If is time the Arab learns that if they support terrorist and the PLO they they will pay the price. Do you know that they spent about 20 million dollars for social support of the PLO Enough is enough . The PLO must be defeated completely and the Arab world must pay the price of re-building, all social infra- structure. The Arab World must cough up money to raise the standard of living for the people that we call palestinians.
I have no problem in helping people that need food, homes, medicine, schools etc. BUT NO WEAPONS !!
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonmarie on 8/20/03 at 20:07 (127478)
I can live with the NO WEAPONS rule.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/20/03 at 20:12 (127481)
Now all we need to do is raise the standard of living paid for by the Arab world. This is the price they have to pay for all of the terror they have spread in the middle east.
The common person needs hope, He needs schools, homes, a JOB to have a future. Take the weapons away and MAKE the Arab world put their money where their mouth is.
It is time the USA stops having to pay their our tax money to help the rest of the world. Oil for Peace in the middle east. Take the oil money and spend it on the people and stop the government from spending on terrorism
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonmarie on 8/20/03 at 20:43 (127490)
Do we send aid, other than military, to Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Egypt? I am asking because I don't know what aid we send were in the Arab countries and what it is designated for.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/20/03 at 20:56 (127493)
I have no idea but I believe it probaby all weapons. We are the world's biggest supplier of military weapons which has got to stop. What I want is the Arab countries to start paying their share to the people of the middle east to elevate their standard of living. Now that is what make people peaceful. Keep them ignorant and poor and you have reasons to blame someone and then you have the terrorism
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonEd Davis, DPM on 8/20/03 at 21:09 (127495)
We send lots of aid to Egypt. I believe that we need to attach some preconditions to that aid, specifically, stop the anti-US, anti-Israeland anti-Semitic propaganda.
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?Ed Davis, DPM on 8/20/03 at 21:14 (127496)
Palestinian 'statehood' is unlikely to solve the problem in the area. The area now discussed for Palestinian autonomy, the West Bank was part of Jordan until 1967. Two thirds of Jordan is comprised of Palestinian Arabs and Jordan is essentially a Palestinian state. The Gaza Strip was part of Egypt until 1967 and Yasser Arafat is an Egyptian. The trading of land for peace is a dubious concept at best.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonjohn h on 8/20/03 at 21:58 (127498)
Some of the mideast nations are extremely wealthy with oil. unfortunately it is the hands of a few. I think one of the small emirates everyone who lives there is a millionaire. some of them do not need aid as much as a change in the form of government.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDorothy on 8/20/03 at 23:46 (127503)
Hear! Hear! Dr. Z. Well said.
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?Dorothy on 8/21/03 at 00:26 (127504)
It has always amazed me that in the international discussions, only Israel is expected to give up land to the Palestinians. Why not Jordan,Egypt,Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc etc.? The way that the British 'created' Israel, and in response to terrorism really, has contributed greatly to the ongoing conflicts there. Generations carry the sting of injustice forward. Maybe the entire region needs to be placed in the hands of an international redistricting committee and the whole region gets remapped, similar to what the British did in 1947 in Israel. Israel is experiencing increasingly serious social problems, beyond the 'usual' ones they have of war and terrorism. Then there is the question of water...
Frankly, I think that Germany has gotten off much too easily for all the hell that has been wrought as the result of her aggression and destruction for much of the twentieth century. The world still reels on a daily basis today as a result of Germany's warring. It is unconscienable that Germany has prospered and flourished while her many victims - nations and individuals - continue to suffer. I think that Germany should have an ongoing, and huge, requirement to fund Israel, for example. Israel should have no national expenses because all are paid by Germany, in perpetuity. Germany and Japan owe the world, but it is the U.S. that pays the bills, literally and metaphorically. It has always been galling to read of the lovely social benefits that Germans have enjoyed (until just very recently with a deteriorating economy) while U.S. veterans, including WWI and WWII veterans over the years, have had to struggle and grovel for decent benefits from our government.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonMax K on 8/21/03 at 01:10 (127505)
I heard that Israel routinely demolishes the houses of suicide bombers, as a deterrent. I like that idea, of establishing an equation like that:
'if you blow yourself up and kill Israelis, we will destroy your house.'
But I think it needs to go further. There has to be an equation that produces immediate, fearsome consequences in response to any palestinian terror attacks. Something like this: on the very same day that a palestinian homicide bombing occurs, Israeli forces go out and deliberately kill an equal number of palestinians, preferably terrorists or other violent militants, of course, but if necessary, any adults, INCLUDING INNOCENT CIVILIANS. If such an equation could be credibly established, wouldn't that act as a deterrent? So when another bus gets bombed with 20 dead Israelis inside, you know right away: before the day is over, 20 Palestinians will be killed in retaliation. This kind of response would perhaps give the potential suicide bombers a moment of pause.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonBGCPed on 8/21/03 at 07:05 (127506)
I hate to sound bad but I think many of those people are wired differently. I dont mean genetic but when you have insane mouth breathers parading around 2 year old children wearing fatigues with a plastic gun and shouting hate filled phrases that they have no understanding of its crazy.
I also think that Israel could give a huge junk of land and say see ya later and they would still do the bombings etc. Its not really about land. Same with Bin Laden and other cowards. The hate America and are jealous. That region is filled with rich hateful fools that use religion to justify their violence and maintain their power and control.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonPeter R on 8/21/03 at 07:06 (127507)
Your idea has great merit with one change. For every Israeli killed by a terrorist 100 Palestinians should be killed- and they should be the women and children so that those who bear the the terrorist produce no more and the young who will grow up to be the future terrorists are gone. The plagues that freed the Jews from the Egyptians should once again be brought down upon the terrorists only this time they should be delivered from the sky in the form of bombs, rockets, and napalm.
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?Ed Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 11:36 (127513)
I don't think it could be stated better than that!
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonEd Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 11:40 (127514)
You and other here have stated the key point. It really is not about land. There is an enormous amount of land available in the Middle East, most of which is not used nor developed. Asking Israel which controls a tiny sliver of land to continually give up more land for peace is absurd.
The media and many of powers that be have allowed that distortion of the facts to be the main 'spin' on the situation there for years. It is gratifying to see that enough people can see through that spin.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonEd Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 11:52 (127519)
While your point is well taken it does not lead to a long term solution to the problem. England, France, the UN, Saudi Arabia and all those who have perpetuated the conflict need to pay the bill for a major population relocation so that those Arabs who do not wish to be part of Israel move to decent accomodations in Jordan (which is the British mandate of Palestine) and to provide Israel with secure and defensible borders. The Euro-weenies need to stop funding Arab schools that are little more than terrorist training grounds and breeding grounds of hatred. They need to demand accountability for what is being taught with the funds they contribute.
Israel needs real borders that it can defend against attack. Jerusalem was only a third tier 'holy' city to Islam but only became an issue in recent decades as leverage against Israel. Israel once allowed to exist in peace, once good intentions have been demonstrated by the Arabs, once they are no longer acting in a bellicose fashion would be allowed access by Israel to all holy sites in the same manner that Christians have access to Bethlehem and other sites. Obviously, such access is in Israel's best interest politically as well as economically because such access brings toruist revenue to the country.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonjohn h on 8/21/03 at 12:52 (127538)
Ed you are correct when you say this is not all about land. It is about a difference in culture, religion and long term hatred
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?john h on 8/21/03 at 13:01 (127539)
Some Vets now wait 6 months to see a specialist at a VA hospital. The problem with making the Germans pay retribution is that those responsible are all dead. We could go back further and blane the Romans (Italians) for enslaving the Jews. Hitler and the Nazi's are certainly largely responsible for much of the current situation. Money is not going to solve the problem. Israel is an Island surrounded by people on all sides who hate them and want to kill them. If they did not have the bomb, a lot of resolve, and taken the necessary actions like taking out the nuclear reactor in Iraq I do not think there would be an Israel.I suspect they have the toughest army in the world.
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?Dr. Z on 8/21/03 at 15:26 (127557)
Here is another idea. If I were Israel I would just pick up and leave .I am sure they could find alot of better places to exist. The problem is the Arab countries will dissolve due to their energies now having to solve their own problems and not just focusing on Israel. So next plane is leaving for ? Any ideas?
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/21/03 at 15:28 (127559)
I say move. Anyone have any place that Israel can move to.??
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/21/03 at 15:36 (127561)
Total Defeat is what I call your description is the definition of total defeat. I would first do this . If a bus blows up in Israel then a bus blows up in the West Bank. No never mind . Go for the total defeat. Israel knows the approximately 800 -1000 terrorist that are the sole cause of terrorist.
Peter: I will repeat this for you . IF Israel doesn't finish off the PLO and the rest of the criminals then I have no sympathy for them. Fool me once Shame on you . Fool me twice Shame on you. Get my point?
Re: OK wait a minute leave children and innocents out of this.marie on 8/21/03 at 15:53 (127568)
I know you're an excitable guy but children are the true innocents of all of this. I can't imagine a comment more horrific. I know some of you have children yourselves. I suggest you tuck them into bed tonight and remember just how precious they are.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonEd Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 16:04 (127570)
Israel finish off the PLO? President Bush just had Israel release hundreds of terrorist prisoners as part of the 'roadmap to peace.'
The PLO just got a lot stronger with those reinforcements joining their rakns!
The Israeli government has been walking a tightrope between acting in its best interest and satisfying our State Dept. and the Euro's. The Euro's even refuse to label Hizbollah as a terrorist group. Arafat, a mass murderer is recieved in European capitals with all the respect of a head of state.
Israel is economically dependent on Europe and the US for its survival and does not want to offend those groups.
Israel should have, years ago, annexed the West Bank and Gaza. They would have taken a lot of flak at the time for doing so but the current mess would have been avoided.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonEd Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 16:16 (127572)
How about New Jersey? ;)
You really have to go back and ask why Israel needs exist in the first place and some of the answer depends on your religious orientation.
Many of those who settled in Israel came from persecution in Europe with the conclusion that an independent country was needed for Jewish people where full rights as citizens could be enjoyed. If that was the only criterion, other areas could have been chosen.
A more religious consideration is the rightful return to the land deeded to the Jewish people by G-d. Here is where various degrees of compromise have started arguments as more and more of histroical (biblical) Israel or Eretz Israel has been split away in political compromises. It is incredible to see those who argue against Israelis having the right to pray at the Temple Mount (Solomon's Temple) -- if you cannot go there, you really don't have an Israel!
Re: OK wait a minute leave children and innocents out of this.Ed Davis, DPM on 8/21/03 at 16:19 (127573)
The problem here is that this is being looked at as a classical war, country vs. country. We don't even know WHO or WHERE we are supposed to bomb. I doubt that anyone simply wants to level the entire area with the hope that we are going to take out some terrorists in the process.
Re: OK wait a minute leave children and innocents out of this.Aly on 8/21/03 at 16:38 (127574)
I second that Marie! Let's not get ugly, we're talking about real people here.
I believe none of us here really have any idea what it's like to be raised with death & destruction as a regular part of daily life. We should not presume to know how their problems should be solved...
Re: Here's a sight for you guys....have fun!marie on 8/21/03 at 16:39 (127575)
Re: Here's a sight for you guys....have fun!Aly on 8/21/03 at 16:56 (127576)
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDr. Z on 8/21/03 at 19:34 (127588)
Israel moves. G-D flood the entire place. Israel moves back in. I have no problem giving Israel a full citzenship in the USA, even NJ. In fact Lakewood, New Jersey if you have ever been there it is a little Israel. So long as our new Country of Israel pays taxes and serves in the Army so be it.
After G-d does his thing in the holy land then Israel can take back what G-d gave him in the first place
Seriously . Israel must take a stand NOW. Let the chips fall where they will fall. Israel will survive !!
How the world treats Israel will be how G-d treats the human race.
Re: OK wait a minute leave children and innocents out of this.Dr. Z on 8/21/03 at 19:37 (127590)
Actually I talk to alot of Israelis and they think that they must be tougher on the PLO but at the same time make peace with them with a separate state. So the comflict isn't that simple to resolve as you state very well.
Re: Here's a sight for you guys....have fun!Dr. Z on 8/21/03 at 19:41 (127591)
Ok. I used the name Captain Kirk. Some man yelled at me for placing a ship on top of another ship. Ok . I am pissed off and going to nuke the guy who tried to tell me how to play this game. It was fun.
Re: How many "Palestinian" states are needed?Dorothy on 8/21/03 at 21:04 (127599)
Iowa is very worried about its declining population. Plus, if you have read the book Postville, you know that a group of Hasidim moved to Iowa from NY to take over the ownership and operation of a kosher meat plant there - the book is about the clash of cultures - so maybe Iowa is a good place. It has the unfortunate disadvantage of not having Jerusalem and other important cities, however. Perhaps peace and quiet can compensate in some way.
Re: Here's a sight for you guys....have fun!Peter R on 8/22/03 at 06:38 (127629)
Love it- It would be a little better if we could see sailors blown overboard and being eaten by sharks.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonjohn h on 8/22/03 at 12:06 (127667)
Thinking about who's land is it brings to mind the American Indians and their history. In Hawaii it is estimated there were over 1 million pure Hawaiians when the Missionaires arrived. Today there are approximately 8,000 pure Hawaiians and it is estimated that in 20 years there will be none. All of this came about in the name of religion and conversion. There have been a number of races wiped from the face of the earth my mankind. We are not a very good species and one of the few who kill their own kind..
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonjohn h on 8/22/03 at 12:14 (127669)
How about giving them the big island of Hawaii and they can move there. I might consider converting. Problem of the Holy Land would still be there as both sides are willing to die for this. I do not think Christians have any place on earth that is the equal of the holy places are to the Jews and Muslims.
Re: Here's a sight for you guys....have fun!marie on 8/22/03 at 16:37 (127709)
I'll see what I can do.
Re: Peter it's not sharks but this is for you! And the good drs.marie on 8/22/03 at 17:06 (127712)
Six years ago I was teaching at the school in our community and the internet at school was a new and exciting place. The principal at the time was an recipient of the Blue Ribbon award and principal of the year. A couple of the kids asked if they could look on the internet to see if they could find some info about our principal on the internet. Pretty soon a large group of kids were around the computer and I heard a loud long fart and then another. Of course they were all laughing hystarically so I told them whoever is farting needs to knock off. The young man at the computer said 'It's not me it's Dr. Rex.' Pretty soon another fart and I yelled 'knock it off' and again he said 'Mrs. E. it's not me it's Dr. Rex.' I told them it wasn't nice to blame the farts on our principal as he wasn't even around the art room. As I made my way through the crowd around the computer, there it was, a sight run by a proctologist in Arizonia with the identical name of our principal. At first I thought our principal (who is really conservative), might have a seceret life....but it wasn't him. Now what are the odds of being a principal and having the same name as a doctor in Arizonia who collects farts by phone. I couldn't resist and shared it with him he just fell apart laughing. Here is the sight. It has gotten much larger.
P.S. I put it here cause I don't want to get in trouble.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonmarie on 8/22/03 at 21:26 (127736)
I think they'd be happier in Miami FL. But Iowa is ok too.
Re: Description of what happens when a homicide bomber pushes the buttonDorothy on 8/23/03 at 00:27 (127744)
I have lived in several different areas where American Indian treaties with the U.S. governemnt are being invoked to reclaim territory. These cases usually hold up under judicial scrutiny, but sometimes they don't. What a property owner feels like during the waiting period is some combination of at least fear and anger. At the same time, it does give a small taste of what people pushed out of their homes must feel like wherever it happens - whether it leads to the Trail of Tears in the U.S. or the wetlands in Iraq being drained and the marsh people being driven off or the Serbs taking over Bosnian villages and villagers' homes or Hussein taking over Kurds' homes and installing his cronies in them, or black veterans forcing white Zimbabwean farmers off their farms,or - and we have to acknowledge that it happened - the Palestinians homes being taken from them. These injustices only breed anger and hatred even when they happened long ago, even in people who might otherwise be 'good' people. Where is there precedent for two peoples with a history of hatred and mayhem coming to peaceful co-existence? Maybe the confederate states and the union states of the U.S. - eventually. It was thought to have happened in Yugoslavia - remember beautiful, prosperous Yugoslavia? But those hatreds and murderous desires were seething just below the snowy surface of those ski jumps and the sand of the seaside resorts. What is the answer in Israel? Really, what is the answer?
You are right, John, about Hawaii. The Hawaiian people were treated abominably. The Australian aborigines, too. Africans in the 'new world' and African-Americans. American Indians. Poor white southerners.
What is the answer? What should happen?