Home The Book Dr Articles Products Message Boards Journal Articles Search Our Surveys Surgery ESWT Dr Messages Find Good Drs video

Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Posted by Ed Davis, DPM on 9/06/03 at 12:20 (128967)

Yassir Arafat has basically sabotaged the 'roadmap to peace.' He could do so because the Euro-weenies insisted on continuing their support of Yassir Arafat. Finally, a frustrated Abbas, his power being usurped by Arafat, with the blessing of the Euro-weenies, resigns. Instead of recognizing their incredible folly, the Euro-weenies blame the US and Israel for not giving Arafat enough recognition. This is truly the death of logic!

Abbas: EU ministers 'alarmed'
Saturday, September 6, 2003 Posted: 7:17 AM EDT (1117 GMT)

Abbas: EU ministers argued that excluding Arafat would hurt him.


Story Tools



Interactive: Road map explainer
Interactive: Timeline
Map: Occupied lands
Interactive: Key Players
Gallery: Mideast lands
Special Report

RIVA DEL GARDA, Italy (Reuters) -- European Union foreign ministers said they were alarmed by the resignation of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas.

Speaking at a meeting of EU foreign ministers, Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said the 15-nation bloc was 'deeply worried by the serious risk of dangerous instability at the head of the Palestinian executive.'

The ministers earlier discussed ways of reining in the Palestinian militant group Hamas following its claim of responsibility for a recent suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem which ended the truce declared by several militant groups.

Senior Palestinian officials said Abbas, battling to comply with a U.S.-backed 'road map' plan for peace with Israel, had resigned in frustration at being blocked in a power struggle with President Yasser Arafat. (Full story)

Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh said the United States and Israel bore some responsibility for the crisis, saying Abu Mazen (Abbas's alternative name) had been given 'the kiss of death' when they decided to deal only with him and not with Arafat.

'We (the EU) have all along agreed that this U.S.-Israeli policy of trying to exclude Arafat was very dangerous for Abu Mazen, and that there was a risk it could lead to Abu Mazen's fall. That is what we have seen now,' she told reporters.

But Lindh also said Arafat was partly to blame: 'Arafat's role in this is clearly negative and it is obvious Arafat must accept the continuation of the peace process.'

Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller, one of the original architects of the road map, said Abbas's resignation would be a severe setback for the peace process.

He said it was imperative for the Quartet -- the mediation group made up of the United States, European Union, Russia and the United Nations -- to meet the Palestinians and the Israelis.

'It is not fun to go to a quartet in New York if suicide bombs are going off,' he said, adding the same applied to the Israeli retaliation attacks. 'Just calling such (a meeting) could calm things down,' he said.

Italy, which holds the rotating EU presidency, says it wants the Quartet to meet in New York on September 22.

Diplomats said that in their talks on Hamas, ministers might stop short of adding its political wing to their blacklist of banned terrorist organizations, which would lead to EU states freezing its assets and possibly prosecuting its activists.

The bloc blacklisted Hamas's military wing, the Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades, last year, but is divided over whether to ban the political wing, France arguing it could play a role in peace efforts and provides social services to Palestinians.

Denmark's Per Stig Moeller said he was convinced the group's political wing should be banned.

'I have seen in the electronic media Hamas's political leader calling several times for a break with the truce and if a political leader can give military orders then I cannot really see where one starts and the other begins,' he told reporters.

Story Tools

2003 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
An AOL Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us. All external sites will open in a new browser.
CNN.com does not endorse external sites.
Denotes premium content.

These EU foreign ministers need to be rounded up and shot. Really!


Capitalism Magazine > Science > Space Help (PIPE) Search

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

wendyn on 9/06/03 at 18:17 (128982)

Logically speaking....

'Euro-weenies' (and the rest of the 'weenies' in the world for that matter) would fair far better if they simply recognized the fact that America (and indeed - Dr Ed himself) truly do have all the right answers. 8-(PIPE)

(I grow weary of the flag-waving and chest-thumping).

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/06/03 at 21:12 (128990)

Well we dont have all the answers but we have many AND the fortitude to stand up for,and act on them. Arafat should have been smoked years ago and Israel could have done it if they wanted to.

The actions of France, Germany and many other nations that should be allies sometimes transcend the term weenie. If you look at the actions of those two countries re Iraq I think weenie is a much too delicate term.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/06/03 at 21:32 (128992)

Those countries are looking out for their people. France has always been out there. They demand that they speak French during UN meetings and have their own seperate quarters. However they all speak English at the end of the day at the bar across the street. I don't think that makes them weenies...just independent. It takes some guts to stand up against others especially the pressure from the U.S. I quit listening to editorials and news reports a while ago when it concerns the UN and France and world politics. I listen to or read only their speeches and not someone elses interpretation of their speeches. I do the same with GWB. I read and listen very closely. There was a great deal of misreporting going on last year. I listened to the speeches and I didn't recall half of what the news said they said....etc.

take care

By the way i am not fond of Yassir Arafat myself.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/06/03 at 21:48 (128993)

I dont think the lying and 2 faced actions of France is simply looking out for their citizens. It was putting dollars ahead of freedom. They were desperate to protect their arms sales (illegal by UN standards) and help Saddam skim a few bucks a barrel to skirt the oil for food rules.

They designed and built a reactor for Saddam until the Isralis wisely bombed it. The French have proved many times they are very self serving but not ashamed to take outside help, help that they soon forget and are in no hurry to reciprocate.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/06/03 at 21:48 (128994)

Independence can be a good thing if a country is standing up for its interest. Protraction of the middle east conflict by taking a weak kneed stand on terrorism may buy the Euros a temporary retrieve from the animosity of the terrorists but history shows that a policy of appeasement has never been successful.

It takes guts to stand up for what is right and that is why so many of us admire GWB. The defying of GWB's policies by the French does not take guts -- it is a sign of cowardice. They are not standing up against terrorism and tyranny but are attempting to curry favor with tyrants in order to buy themselves a temporary peace. Nothing can be more reprehensible and against even their own long term interests.

The French and other Euro-weenies are content to see American boys die and the American taxpayor spend the money to keep them free from tyranny while they whine and appease the terrorists hoping not to be targets.

If not for the US, our lives and resources, the Warsaw Pact would have long ago overrun Europe and the French would not be complaining about the influence of the English language on their culture, they would be speaking Russian. If not for the US, our lives and resources, before the Warsaw Pact, the French would be occupied and subjugated by the German Nazi's. That was only 60 years ago-- how short the memories are of the people of that amoral nation.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Max K on 9/07/03 at 03:37 (129009)

Dr Ed, talking about the French, you said:

'They are not standing up against terrorism and tyranny but are attempting to curry favor with tyrants in order to buy themselves a temporary peace.'

This strongly reminds me of the mindset behind such things as 'gun-free zones' in schools. The violent criminal is inherently uncontrollable, except by force. When a homicidal sociopath sees one of those 'gun-free zone' signs on a school building, it tells him that he is WELCOME to enter the school and WELCOME to shoot lots of people, without any fear of being hurt himself, much less stopped cold.

When contemplating the horror of a school shooting spree, some people find that they cannot even imagine it: it is just too frightening. So they have found ways of re-interpreting such things to make them less frightening. This new interpretation is a distortion, of course: blame the gun. Well what happened to 'blame the criminal?' Too frightening, okay, we just can't deal with that and the implications of that. So everybody, let's join in a mass illusion and pretend that the gun is the problem, okay? That way, we won't have to deal with the real problem! (The real problem is that there are evil people in the world, and they must be stopped by force of weapons, because nothing else will stop them).

'A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.'
-- John Stuart Mill, writing on the U.S. Civil War in 1862


Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 08:02 (129010)

Well said Max and sad to say it is true. Animals that use guns are smart enough th know where to go. Remember the couple shootings at the schools and daycare centers a while back? I had this discussion last winter after seeing the fictional documentary 'Bowling for Columbine'

Michael Moore spliced and manipulated the truth to make a movie that was in no way a true documentary. One point was the little girl Kayla Rowlands that was shot by another 7 y/o in school. He blamed everybody but the shooter. I realize he was only 7 but the IDIOT Mother and relative that allowed him to be in a drug infested enviornment, and get a gun.

He mocked Charleton Heston and blamed the NRA. He blamed our mean spirited Governor for signing the welfare to work bill that MADE the poor shooters Mother ride a bus for 45 minutes to work. What worse is she only made about $10 hr. He also added in that she had to work at a big mall waiting on rich suburbanites (whites). She happened to be black so this was a good liberal spin on the old slavery angle.

The poor Mother had to do this and one of the owners of her workplace was Dick Clark. He went to California to mock him for owning a restaurant that the shooters Mother was forced to work at by the mean Governor AND degraded by having to ride a BUS for 45 minutes one way. That and many other things were blamed.

Funny thing is he didnt go to the relative of the shooter or his Mother, the two most responsible for it and mock them. He didnt go to visit the relative in jail and do ambush journalism...wonder why?

Then he went to Kmart HQ with a kid from Columbine that had a bullet lodged in him. This was to blame Kmart for the shooting cause they sell bullets. Bullets that were used by two scum bags IN A GUN FREE SCHOOL ZONE. The gunshot numbers have not gone down since Kmart stopped. In fact 3 miles from Kmart HQ we just had some animals go to a Holiday Inn and kill one and shoot a guest in the face.

The clerck was a young lady and a military vet they tied her up and shot her in the back of the head. The other guest who was the wife of a cop begged for her life so they shot her in the face. She lived and called polise by playing dead. They tried to shoot her again but gun mis-fired.

There was nobody there at that time of night. No armed security and they took advantage of that to steal about $400. So the point is they look for places that wont have any armed opposition. The School Zone thing, if they keep it should change. They should put on the sign mandatory 15 years for possesion of un-registered or un-lawful carry.

The animals that commit Columbine and smaller scale acts are cowards and sick. They are smart enough to know where to go. When was the last time one of these cowards stepped to the plate? I dont recall ever seeing one walk into a police station armed to the teeth. Why dont they ever drive up to a military base all armed and start shooting? Cause those guys have guns and will shoot back. A school or church is much safer.

Sorry for the rant but this is a sore subject

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

wendyn on 9/07/03 at 08:49 (129013)

BG - my comment has nothing to do with Arafat. My comment was directed at this need to cruise the net looking for posts that reflect how everyone else in the world is wrong.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

john h on 9/07/03 at 09:23 (129015)

Well put Max. Blaming objects such as guns or for that matter drugs does not really address the root of the problem and that is bad people. It would appear very unlikely we will ever get rid of all the guns in the world or all the drugs in the world. Man has been killing man since the begining of time. If you observe history you had always better be ready to defend yourself. The 1st and most important priority of any President is to defend the nation. That does not mean just building a wall around our borders because that defense went south centuries ago. It may well require we find those who would destroy us in thier own land. When people say we need to find a smoking gun first. The smoking gun had better not be a nuclear weapon in NYC.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 10:24 (129017)

Good point John. I think in this country there are too many people with short memories. WTC is unpleasant so they want to be upset and leave flowers and shrines then forget a few months later. If the cable bill and gas is not to expensive and there is beer in the fridge then dont rock the boat.

If anyone thinks that Saddam, Bin Laden or any number of sick people wouldnt do a dirty nuke in NYC they are crazy. The ONLY reason it has not been done is they have not been allowed to. Somebody will soon or at least something similar.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 10:25 (129018)

Blue Jays beat the Tigers Wendy

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/07/03 at 16:54 (129034)

On school violence. You are correct that we have not addressed the real issue. Most students who carry out violent acts of revenge have been picked on to their breaking point. Why do you think I put so much energy into studying bullying behavior? If you were never the subject of that kind of treatment than you wouldn't know anything about it. We have to make adjustments to the entire make up of the social structure at schools. Children feel trapped because by law they have to go to school every day and face their tormentors. For instance there are serious issues between athletes and non athletes. I'm not saying all athletes are bullys...not at all, but sports do create a social hierarchy and to ignore that is neglegence. If you were shocked by the behavior of the girls hazing event near Chicago you are not in sinc with what's really going on. It wasn't a bit shocking as I have witnessed and dealt with worse and the same. I don't blame the media or violent movies.....I do blame the parents and our generation for raising our children to never accept responsibility for their mistakes and poor behavior. Our president doesn't even accept responsibility for his state of the Union address....yep it's always someone elses fault. It's only natural to want to protect your child from mistakes but in doing so we've created an atmosphere that saids it's always someone elses fault.....like blaming gun laws, media violence, video games, music etc....The real approach is simple

GOOD CHOICE, BAD CHOICE, YOUR CHOICE. It takes courage to accept responsibility for poor choices and behavior, that I can and always will respect.

Thanks for listening....marie

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Kathy G on 9/07/03 at 17:41 (129037)


As I have stated, compared to many on this board, I am a raging liberal, for which I don't apologize. I also seldom get involved in any political discussions. But we rented 'Bowling for Columbine' last night and I was appalled at the misinformation that Michael Moore presented and the way he skewed the figures to say what he wanted them to say. His exploitation of the two children injured at Columbine was disgraceful.

Discussion of gun control will go on forever and neither side is totally right or wrong, but he lost any credibility when he made this terrible 'mockumentary.'

Just my opinion!

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Dorothy on 9/07/03 at 17:46 (129038)

I think Michael Moore deserves criticism for distortions of the truth. I also think Michael Moore deserves personal criticism for his presentation of himself as a spokesperson for the downtrodden and oppressed. SOMEBODY needs to be an honest spokesperson for the downtrodden and the oppressed, but I don't think Mr. Moore is that person. Mr. Moore first hightailed it out of Flint, Michigan as fast as ever he could after the funny and quirky 'Roger & Me', as soon as he had enough money to buy expensive property in northwest Michigan where he lived a very, very good life, at some remove from the downtrodden and oppressed. As soon as he got more millions together, he moved even farther away from Flint, all the way out of Michigan to California and New York and who knows where else.
Now I am not saying that is wrong in and of itself, but that he presents himself as 'at one with Flint', so to speak, and places like Flint that have been left to rot is the height of hypocrisy. That he is the darling of Hollywood multimillionaires who would likely not pause long in places like Flint is additionally nauseating. I am sick unto death of hypocrites making a mighty fine living off of suckers.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 17:49 (129039)

The choice comment is right on. We can go back and point out certain programs and government policy that helps nurture dysfunction. Like anything else being humans we choose to partake in something or not. I like the Libertarian views of hands off and let me be me. I just want it clear whom is going to pay out of their pocket to drag along the lazy malcontents that disrupt society.

tough question with some simple solutions. Problem is solutions would never get done here because we have to many citizens that desire a nanny state. Our system is flawed but still the greatest country imho.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 17:53 (129040)

Right on as always Dorothy. Moore is what is know as a Limosine Liberal. Dont let the slobby unkept look. The running shoes, baggie pants and truck driver b-ball cap is a costume.

Remember Roger & Me ? he showed the lasy that raised and slaughtered rabbits. She obviously was what we call white trash. He mocked her and presented her as an idiot. And somehow it was GM's fault for her plight

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Dorothy on 9/07/03 at 17:59 (129044)

Yes, now that you mention it, I do recall that - and it made me angry. I think he is a hate-monger and a lying manipulator. He is the kind of individual who does so much harm to the underlying issues that actually need attention - and he profits from it all. Despicable.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/07/03 at 18:00 (129046)

Thanks Kathy. I am glad you can be open. Many folks get hardline about their general beliefs. I watched it in Canada. It was odd hearing laughter about certain parts that were false. The audience was 99% Canadian. It kind of irked me since they were getting the stereotype, incorrect views spooned to them by that Moore-on. I dont mind some satire but when it is cloaked as a 'documentary' the average person believes it as all fact.

Im suprised he didnt take another run at GM and claim the school buses they manufacture drove those kids to school that day so its their corporate fault

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/07/03 at 21:44 (129072)

Yes, we live in a wonderful country. We are so culturaly diverse yet we have our own distinct culture. I spent today at Fiesta Latina. As with many states our hispanic population has grown. We have alot of industry up here and for a while....before GWB, we had a problem finding people who would work. At the Mexican/American border there are signs encouraging people to move to our area there are jobs waiting for them. Some factories left our area because they couldn't find people to work for them. We had the lowest unemployment rate in the country...now we rank among the highest. Anyway, we have had many new hispanic members to our community...the festival is meant to celebrate and welcome our newest Americans and the wonderful culture they bring with them. The goal is to foster communication. My neice and husband were here for a family wedding. Her husband had a double major in Physics and Spanish so he had a wonderful time. And needless to say the food was fabulous. I especially love Mama Montoya's salsa..she makes the best. We are a good country and together Democrat and Republican we have much to be thankful for. We have a very close friend who is very involved with the Libertarin Party and yes I think some of the ideas are great but have no realistic basis. Our friend, who ran for office, state congress, and I had many discussions on education. He had no clue about what it takes financially to run a school. Libertarins are a bit to idealistic for me.

take care, marie

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/07/03 at 21:55 (129075)

After I watched Roger and Me I thought Flint was full of really weird people. Of course now that I know folks from there I have discovered his point of view to be dishonest and at best a form of media manipulation. I consider myself to be a moderate liberal...I'm not way out there but I am certainly not close to being a conservative. Moore lacks class. Again if the only thing someone can bring to the table is criticism then they should go home. We, all conservatives and liberals, need to take the time to listen to each others solutions and ideas and find what's going to work. All this media hype on either side doesn't solve anything. It just offends people and that's when folks quit listening. We need to listen very closely to each other.


Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Dorothy on 9/07/03 at 22:09 (129079)

Sometimes - but sometimes not so close listening is better for one's own peace of mind.

And I think a high quality critic can be a marvelous thing. We call them curmudgeons or gadflys - and a good intellectual critic can shine light on what we need to see. He/she doesn't need to be the 'fixer'; sometimes, the 'pointer-outer' is of the greatest value.

Flint, like Detroit, is full of people who are representative of what used to be called 'the American Dream'. These old cities, these great rusting hulks, used to be the heart of the American engine - and they have been mistreated and all but abandoned in many ways - in spite of various, occasional efforts to 'do something'. All too often, the 'something' that has been 'done' has been to offer big industry a tax incentive to stay - but then they go anyway.

I read that the current Ford son who is the head of Ford Motor is the first Ford in eons to actually, truly LIVE in Detroit. Now, I would reckon that the way in which he 'lives' in Detroit is really stretching the point, but all the same, that is a good gesture.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/07/03 at 22:27 (129082)

I understand your point. I should have said that criticism without solutions is not productive, it's just criticism. An excellent critic will offer solutions. Anyone can criticize but offering solutions is productive.

Listening is the key. 'People look but they don't see...' Leonardo da Vinci. Sometimes we are so busy thinking about what we are going to say next that we forget to listen to what is being said. As far as editorials go I rarely read them. I have to admit I love to read an editorial that is in agreement with my belifs and sometimes there is valuble insight in an editorial. But since 9/11 I have learned to stay focused on what is actually being said by the individual.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/07/03 at 23:16 (129089)


It's good to know I am not the only liberal here! Phew! :)

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Suzanne D on 9/08/03 at 10:55 (129119)

Marie and B.G., I tried unsuccessfully to respond to this thread last night but somehow my computer at home would let me access and read messages but not post.

Anyway, say 'school' and I always have something to say~ :-)

BG, I totally agree that putting up signs in schools that say NO GUN ZONE only accomplishes one thing: it gives administrators something to write down that they did for their school safety plan. It is a paper chase. You wouldn't believe how much is done for just that purpose...But that's another topic.

On school violence, Marie, your statement was so true that most parents are not teaching their children to face up to responsibility. I see it in my first graders. Almost every parent - and thank goodness for the exceptions! - that I talk to about discipline problems or just not paying attention want to blame other students, the school, me, or the system for their child's problems. If I would just move their desk away from so-and-so, or if the child was just 'challenged', etc. I had a note from a mom on Friday that said her child was telling that he got in trouble at school for not listening, and she just wished he could have fun all the time...She knew he would have to listen to me, but she let him talk to her however he wanted to in whatever way he chose because he was just a little boy and she wanted him to feel free and have fun. I wonder what kind of conversations they will have when he is 15?

And bullying...that starts early, too. I have a student who has been in kindergarten two years and has already had two bus reports for throwing a bottle out of the window and threatening two other students. I am trying so hard to make a difference in his life and turn him in another direction. The only glimmer of hope I've had yet is that he has seemed genuinely concerened about a little girl who cries each Friday before PE because they do stations that day and she is scared of the loud buzzer that signals the times to change areas. He has said to me several times something about it, and last week I asked him if he would try to help her not be upset. He told me after PE that he tried to get in her group when he could and watched out for her. He said, 'I think I made her feel safer'. So I am encouraging the 'big brother' image, hoping he will find some satisfaction in that. Perhaps it could become more of a way of life for him than bullying. But sometimes I feel like I'm trying to stop a truck which is rolling downhill with my bare hands!

High schoolers, Marie...Sometimes do you see the bullying going on in more discrete ways - like just 'freezing' someone out? My daughter is a senior, an excellent student and kind to others, but always shy. I have encouraged her in joining groups and clubs, taken her anywhere, opened our home to others,etc. But she basically feels like she is 'invisible' at school, that no one really likes her, and she hates going to school. That just 'kills' me, but I don't know what else to do to try to help her. We have had all the talks about 'to have a friend, you have to be one', etc. She went to a 5-week Governor's Scholars program this summer at a university and had a wonderful experience. She made friends (a great relief to me!) and participated in lots of events. She said at the end of her first week back at school, 'I thought I could be different this year. I've really tried, Mama! I have gone up and tried to talk to people and join in conversations, and they just look at me like 'How dare you think you can join our group?' No one even knows I'm there'. She is in show choir (not shy on the stage!) and was captain last year as her score was highest when they tried out. But she had trouble getting the other kids to listen to her. This year she was concerned about the routine which a former student choreographed as it is a big change from the show tunes kind of dancing they had done. She felt some of it was so suggestive as to be inappropriate, and it was hard for her to do, but she talked to the choir teacher about it. What happened? She is in the back row, and she's not captain this year.

Well, I have two more minutes of lunch, so I have to close. Thanks for anyone who takes the time to read this and care! I feel better just typing it out.

Suzanne :)

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

john h on 9/08/03 at 10:55 (129120)

I guess most people would label me as a conservative but some of my views do not always go along with so called conservative thinking. I really do not care to have a label put on me because my thinking is my own and not based on what any particular group thinks. I like George Bush but I also liked John Kennedy. I liked Ronald Regan but I also liked Harry Truman. I will not be labeled into a corner. Liberal means different things to different people as does Conservative. Neither side holds some high moral ground all though many would like to think they do. I definitely believe in the free enterprise system and reject socialism.

Re: on school violence and bullying...

marie on 9/08/03 at 12:03 (129129)

Yes, Suzanne, I have watched students freeze others out of their circle. High schoolers bully in some very discreet ways. Because of Columbine we are focusing more attention on bullying. I have discussed before some of the different ways each gender does this. It is important that we continue to observe and document so that we can look for solutions to the problem. Your daughter may never fit in at her school before she graduates. The good news is that when they go to college or into the work place all the click stuff seems to melt away. The best thing you can do is be there for her. I know it's heartbreaking for the parent because we want the best for our children. You know she is an enjoyable person. Find an active youth group that involves students from other schools....even if it isn't at your church. She excelled at the Governor's Scholar Program because she is a fun person and was out of her school environment where she has been piegonholed into a role. Contact a high school teacher that she does like and explain your concerns to them. I have worked with parents who have your same concerns. The majority of the kids are invisible it is the norm and not the exception. We naturally focus on the top students and the worse students even though they make up the smallest groups. We spend a great deal of money on gifted and AP courses and at the other end tutoring programs and discipline. The majority of teens do not date in high school....only a few date.

We have some of the same problems with our youngest. He inherited his father's stutter. He is shy and quiet. He was teased for his stuttering when he was younger. He has a group of friends but not any close friends. He does love going to school....but not the homework. He and my husband joined in with a Methodist youth group that purchased an old building downtown. They are remodeling it and will open a teen coffee house. Our youth group just isn't as active at our church. His self esteem has risen as he can proudly say he helped with this project. The coffee house will have an area so that teens can perform, show art and read short stories and poems. They hope to let talented students have a place to shine and have fun. It is not going to have a pool table...or anything along those lines.

It is nice that you have found a way to encourage that young man to assist the frightened little girl. It's important that we catch this behavior early. I am the high school teacher that that wants to THANK YOU, because elementry teachers do make a difference to our students.

best wishes marie

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Suzanne D on 9/08/03 at 14:47 (129156)

Thanks, Marie. I don't have time for much of a reply right now, but I wanted to thank you for your response.

Suzanne :)

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

Kathy G on 9/08/03 at 15:06 (129161)

You're so right, John. Labels of any kind are dangerous. I have many socially liberal ideas but fiscally I'm on the conservative side. I have seldom voted a straight ticket and don't believe in the 'My party, do or die' mentality. I raised my children to never label anyone and to never say 'always' unless they were sure they meant it. I try to do the same!

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Dorothy on 9/08/03 at 15:18 (129165)

Suzanne D. ~
Keep doing what you are doing because what you are doing is standing by her side and letting her know how cared about she is. Remind her that it will pass and that she can get through it - keep reminding her. Lead her to/give her every resource you can find that shows all the many people who were on the 'outside' in high school but who are the leaders, shakers, or just regular happy human beings now. The 'Road of Life' is just littered with those who were 'cool', 'popular', 'in-crowd' - whatever label you choose - in high school but are now watching the 'outsiders' rule. Go to any high school reunion in the U.S. and you will hear the recurrent mantra: That's 'Susie'?? She was such a dork in high school...' and the person they are talking about is brilliant and/or gorgeous and/or rich and/or famous or strong career or delightful family person etc etc. Remind her that she has a very long life and that life's rewards come and go and come again at different times throughout each of our paths. Find other groups for her to 'belong' to/in - church, organizations, whatever. Find ways for her to 'shine' - sounds like you are doing that with performances, etc.
As for the suggestive dancing - I think that is increasingly the 'norm' and part of the hypersexualization of America. Give her lots of praise and let her know that there are other women out here who applaud her - and you - for finding this stuff debasing to women/girls and for resisting it. When I go to high school or college - or even younger for that matter - games and see the 'dance teams' doing the stuff that would serve a stripper well and see the middle-aged fathers and teachers or mothers, et al in the audience ogling, and cheering and applauding, it makes me sick. College 'dance teams' hold 'training days' in which they invite little girls to come and perform with them - and they teach them these moves that should be considered obscene for anyone outside of a strip club. It is very disturbing, but so is the hypersexualization of the country. Have you been reading any of the reviews of this new movie, 'Thirteen' that is coming out now/or soon - I suspect it is going to be very popular (i.e.sell lots of tickets) because of the content and the 'buzz.' Its content, the reviews, and related editorial commentary - very disturbing. Salon.com has run some articles lately in which the journalist is involved - journalistically - with high school students, male and female, and sexual activity and attitudes are the main topic.
Really shocking - but I also know it is true because I know well that age and also college age students. I worry about the future - but I think I am a small minority.

I think it was BGPD who mentioned MTV. I would like to say this about MTV:
Planetary scourge!

What you are experiencing is the toughest thing in the world - knowing your child is hurting and feeling helpless to help. Is she, in fact, hurting, rather than that you are assuming she is hurting? What does SHE say about all this? Can her siblings be of some help to you? to her?

It is in those times that extracurriculars can help a hurting person - art, sports, performing arts (all of these either in school or through other avenues), helping others (i.e. being of use/of service..), crafts - becoming really good at something.
These are just off the top of my head at the moment, but you are raising some very important issues.

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Suzanne D on 9/08/03 at 15:38 (129169)

Thank you so much, Dorothy, for your insightful comments. Yes, SHE is hurting and expresses it every afternoon after school. I do listen and try to let her get it all out even though it does hurt me in the process. As you said, knowing your child is hurting hurts worse than experiencing it yourself.

And amen to what you said about the dance teams. That is what I had liked about the group she was in - that they did the old show tunes, etc. and didn't have suggestive movements. Now that is changing, and she doesn't enjoy it. The teacher said she could do an alternate move in one place - then stuck her in the back.

She DOES take ballet and tap and is an assistant in a little girls' ballet class which helps to pay her tuition. She seems the happiest and most relaxed when I pick her up from dance.

In fact, we must leave soon for a class. But thanks for the idea of telling about others who were 'nobodys' in high school and went on to excell...

Suzanne :)

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

marie on 9/08/03 at 19:39 (129205)

I like the no label concept as well. Although I am registered as a Democrat I vote for the person I believe can and will do the right job. I have at times been labeled here and have found it disheartening and funny. Thank you both for your insightful comments.

Re: Unbelievable lapse of logic and common sense...

BGCPed on 9/08/03 at 20:02 (129206)

Your very welcome Marie

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Suzanne D on 9/08/03 at 21:05 (129220)

...and thanks, Marie, for looking out for students in your high school that may be left out and invisible. And for recognizing that elementary teachers try hard to get the students ready for you. So often it seems high school teachers think elementary teachers just 'babysit', and then elementary teachers think high school teachers don't work as hard,etc. We need to work TOGETHER and respect one another!

Suzanne :)

Re: John Stuart Mill

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/08/03 at 22:29 (129227)

That is a great quote. It is a concept that has guided the actions of so many great men. Why do so many forget such ideas so easily?

Re: John Stuart Mill

Max K on 9/08/03 at 23:38 (129237)

Ed, I believe the short answer is because it's easier to forget such ideas than to remember them, especially when they conflict in any way with one's beliefs. Also, you know what happens when medical services are offered for free: 1. long lines of people wait in line for the services, and 2. they feel increasingly entitled to the services and take them for granted.

Americans enjoy a high level of security and peace, and most of us do not have to pay for it in any obvious, direct way. So there is a tendency for most people to take that peace and security for granted, and to feel entitled to it. They don't want to hear any talk about 'the cost' of peace and security, especially if 'the cost' involves such unpleasantries as getting killed or maimed on the battlefield.

But aside from that, I think that many Americans seriously do not believe that peace and security have a cost. Instead, they believe that peace and security are a normal condition, like air to breathe, and free. They never had to pay for it. Perhaps they should explain that to Todd Beamer in his grave, how he didn't have to fight the terrorists on flight 93, because peace and security doesn't cost anything.


Re: John Stuart Mill

BGCPed on 9/09/03 at 18:39 (129348)

HereHere Max, very astute observation indeed.

Re: on school violence and bullying...

marie on 9/09/03 at 21:32 (129386)


You made my day. Thanks.

Keep supporting your daughter I know she will find her way with mother like you.

My parents moved alot and so I went to seven different schools before graduation. In the 7th grade I was teased and bullied terribly by a group of boys in my class. I was too embarassed about it to talk to my parents. I felt that something was wrong with me and I would seem like a failure to them. I kept it inside and let it fester. It was a Catholic school. I begged my parents to let me change schools....literally on my knees. It was a pretty bad experience and to this day i can't talk too anyone about what those boys had done to me that year. My parents talked to my teacher because I wouldn't tell them why I wanted to change schools and I was failing both English and Writing. Mrs. Anderson took me in the hall for a quiet chat. After a few questions I finally broke down and told her what had been going on. She talked to the boys and the girls in class while I was out of the room. Many of the girls spoke up and told the boys they didn't like it either. Suddenly it all came to a stop. Of course some of the boys held a grudge but I found myself feeling a little better about myself each day. Mrs. Anderson kept me after school and helped me with English and my writing skills. All I can say is God Bless her. I still can't spell but that's ok because she gave me a greater gift. The gift of courage.

It's all just a distant memory now.

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Suzanne D on 9/09/03 at 21:45 (129388)

I'm sorry, Marie, that you were treated so terribly. No one should have to endure things like that. I believe you have taken that experience and used it in a positive way now in dealing with your students. When we can overcome something, it does make us stronger, doesn't it?

Your comments and Dorothy's have made me feel better about my daughter's situation.

Suzanne :)

Re: on school violence and bullying...

Dorothy on 9/09/03 at 23:13 (129391)

I second Suzanne's good comments and would only add that there are several good 'lessons' in your story: a concerned and creative teacher who confronted the problem and provided help, fellow students who supported their classmate by also speaking out, involved and concerned parents.

Re: on school violence and bullying...

john h on 9/10/03 at 10:25 (129430)

Of course the most dangerous problem for the enviroment is mankind. As the world population continues to grow polution and the enviroment will only get worse. I am afraid our efforts in North America is like throwing a pale of water on a raging forest fire. This is not to say we should not continue with our efforts. The Brazilian rain forest has an enormous effect on the earth but is is being chewed up by the locals. I think I read we now actually have more trees in the U.S. than we had over 100 years ago. At the turn of the century the U.S. population was not much over 100 million people. We are now approaching 300 million.Despite all our efforts peopl do and will continue to polute and use up resources. There are a vast number of species that have disappeared from the planet. I guess in the end it will be The Four Horseman of The Apocolapise that will level things out.