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to: shockman

Posted by Peter R on 9/17/03 at 10:01 (130327)

I posted this again so that you wouldn't miss it.

Why do you keep publishing this misleading information when you have absolutely no evidence to back up your ridiculous statements. As a matter of fact the ossatron is probably the least favorible method to use because you need IV sedation which add a level of complication, the energy discharge is potentially unnreliable, shock to shock, due to the variences in the spark gap, it is noisey- making it necessary for all to use hearing protection, the application to the ROI is hit or mis due to the lack of real time ultrasound imaging, the range of energy is more limited than the Dornier, the treatment with the Dornier is usually available at less expense that with the ossatron- I could go on for many pages. So shockman-who is apparantly ashamed of who he is, give us the proof of your claims or go away. If you choose to keep posting how about a bio or shall we all assume that you do not have the credentials to make these posts. How about convincing us that you do have the expertise to make your statements- why don't you give is an explanation of the difference between sound waves generated by punctiform and areal sources.
Or how about telling us how rise time of the acoustic wave is measured or give us a definition of 'sound intensity' what is another name for it, and what is the unit of measure. Or I'll make it real easy for you -- Describe the characteristics of a typical underwater shock wave. I'm sure we will all welcome your posting after you have given us this information.

Re: to: shockman

Scott D. on 9/17/03 at 11:24 (130330)


While I agree with you that 'shockman' should just go away, I hope you see that he and you have very similar approaches. You are both tooting the horn of one machine over all others, just different machines.

I haven't seen you posting any of your credentials here other than having said you have a lot of friends who are podiatrists. If there was something more substantial then I am afraid I missed it, maybe you will re-post them?

I have been doing this stuff for a very long time (1989) and I have to tell you that Im afraid I can't answer the jibbrish that you've asked him to. I seriously doubt though that it has any bearing on the patient care that I give.

Fact is, being able to look up and write down the physics of shockwaves (let alone knowing them) doesn't make anyone an expert in ESWT. If we ignore shockman and the others like him, they WILL go away because they are only seeking attention and want someone to see them as an authority on SOMETHING.

Re: to: shockman

Dr. Z on 9/17/03 at 11:39 (130336)

Dear Mr. Shockman,

The answers are in the blue book ???

Re: to: shockman

Peter R on 9/17/03 at 11:55 (130339)

No they are not in the blue book and as far as you Scott D -so you have been involved since 1989- does that mean longevity alone are your credentials- My questions to shockman are gibberish you say- just the answer that someone ignorant about the technology that they are involved with would give. My credentials are my education that allows me to read and fully understand the technical information and theory involved in shockwave therapy. As far as performing the actual ESWT procedure- I have watched many of them and a 10 yr old proficient PC game player could easily be trained to perform the procedure in about 15 minutes.

Re: to: shockman

Peter R on 9/17/03 at 12:02 (130340)

I never said that the Dornier EPOS produces better results than the Ossatron does. The end results are probably very similar- however I stated what I felt were significant advantages of the Dornier over the Ossatron (other than actual results).

Re: to: shockman

Scott D. on 9/17/03 at 12:53 (130343)


I agree that there are many advantages to the Dornier, that's why I bought one!

While you may indeed be well educated and able to 'fully understand the technical information and theory involved in shockwave therapy', I'm sorry but reading and watching 'many' procedures does not qualify your 'credentials' as you have asked others to state theirs.

Since you asked about mine, I am the Director of Hudson Valley Lithotripsy since it's inception in 1989. I was certified by the American Lithotripsy Society as a 'Renal Lithotripsy Specialist' in 1995. That certification includes hands-on case experience and a comprehensive certification exam. My score on that exam was 89% (the mean score that year was 81%). I have been personally involved in over 10,000 ESWL/ESWT treatments and read all I can on clinically relevent material in both fields. I have attended numerous seminars and annual meetings of both the ALS and the ISMST as well as visiting other Centers to see how others in my field do things. Our Center was also named a training center by the American Urological Association for training physicians in the early 1990's and we have trained over 50 physicians since that time. Knowing the principles of shockwaves is very important, knowing the biomechanical details of them is trivial knowledge that will never help you heal one patient. But then again, you're not healing patients are you?

Your idea of training a 10 year old for 15 minutes and then having him/her perform the procedure is an interesting one. Maybe you would like to be the patient for that experiment?

Re: to: shockman

Peter R on 9/17/03 at 17:12 (130368)

So you are a lisenced tech who work under the supervision and control of some urologists or other doctors. We were discusing ESWT for PF not lithotripsy.

Re: to: shockman

Scott D. on 9/17/03 at 19:57 (130381)

And you are someone who reads a lot and has no hands-on experience with anything discussed on this board. Actually the discussion you started was on the principles and properties of shockwaves, and on credentials. Thank you for clearing up yours for us!

Re: to: shockman

BGCPed on 9/17/03 at 22:41 (130398)

Pardon my intrusion. I am just a dumb shoe cobbler but I would think if the tech knowledge is supposedly irrelevant as some have stated then what makes a kidney plumbing guy an expert on feet?

Based on that, a plastic surgeon could claim he uses a laser for crows feet so he can go ahead and whack away that astigmatism while he is in the that region of the body. and you should feel ok since he has done 4,000 crows feet

just another angle

Re: to: shockman

Dr. Z on 9/18/03 at 11:23 (130433)


You are right anyone can do the procedure, but to really understand and learn the very fine points in the technique requires knowing and understand the surgical treatment of plantar fasciitis. You need to know when to deflate the bellow. The ultrasound is an excellent adjunct but you MUST in your mind's eye know exactly where the pain is coming from and what portion of the insertinal plantar fascia you want to treat.

Re: to: shockman

Dr. Z on 9/18/03 at 12:01 (130439)

I have stated that the physician is the key for a positive ESWT result. Without a good clincian ESWT is worthless. You first have to make a correct diagnosis and MUST know how to guild the patient post eswt with good aftercare. IT's not just shock and send the patient on his or her way

Re: to: shockman

Ed Davis, DPM on 9/22/03 at 19:35 (130729)


I see 'shockman' as a heckler on this board. He really has very little to say. Peter, while not a clinician, seems to have done his homework and with that, has come to conclusions so I don't really think it is fair to compare his approach to 'shockman.'

I feel that we need more non-clinicians and patients who are willing to do their homework and that education is what this site is about. They deserve some latitude to ask probing questions and engage in constructive debate.

I really am not sure exactly whom I would call an ESWT 'expert' nor would I want to restrict anyone's right to stake a claim to that title. I beleive that those with varied credentials each bring their own unique experiences to the field and make valuable contributions to the growth of this area. Interdisciplinary approaches are often the most interesting in discussions and conferences because each profession tends to view things from its own perspective and it is the aggregate of those perspectives that really gives us the full picture.

Re: to: shockman

JerryT on 9/22/03 at 21:44 (130757)

I come on here to get information on these new procedures and all I see is a bunch of children involved in a urinating contest. Please grow up kids.

Re: to: shockman

Dr. Z on 9/22/03 at 23:21 (130770)

I like the name Shockman. We should address him as Mr. Shockman now that sounds more professional.

Re: to: shockman

shock man on 9/28/03 at 21:43 (131603)


we cant help it if u are a moron screwing people with your low energy treatments that are snake oil