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what about sonocur?

Posted by Dan D. on 1/17/04 at 00:57 (142250)

Has anyone had any success with the Sonocur machine?

Re: what about sonocur?

SteveG on 1/17/04 at 11:31 (142269)

Yes - I noticed a definite improvement with this machine - it is the one the use in Europe and Canada

Re: what about sonocur?

DanD. on 1/17/04 at 11:42 (142270)

Dan:

I am probably one of the few practitioners who can lay claim to having used all 3 machines: Soncour (it is available in the US but its use for PF is considedred 'off label'), Dornier and Ossatron. Initially, I used the Ossatron becasue that was all that was available. My experience has been that my results with all 3 machines has been equivalent. Sonocur does have a significant price advantage, as does low energy in general.

I think that after a number of years has gone by and protocols have been further refined, we will see certain protocols (energy level applications) having an edge over each other with specific applications.
The bottom line, in my view, is if you want to get to a cure for as few dollars as possible, Sonocur is best option. I can drive you from Seattle to Portland in a Mercedes, a BMW or a Chevy -- they all will get you there at the same time and with equal efffciency -- it is a cost issue as I see it.
Ed

Re: posting error

Dr. Ed on 1/17/04 at 11:44 (142271)

Gremlin or my error -- the reply to Dan was by me, not Dan as the post indicates - unsure what happened.
Ed

Re: what about sonocur?

Dan D. on 1/18/04 at 19:12 (142328)

Thanks, Dr. Ed,

I live in Florida and am considering three options for ESWT: Ossatron in Birmningham AL, Sonocur in Atlanta, and the Dornier in Ormond Beach, FL.
There is so much conflicting information, so it helps to hear from a doc who has used all three machines.

Dan

Re: what about sonocur?

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/18/04 at 19:45 (142334)

Dan,
What information do you know about each of these machines. For example cost,anesthesia, retreatment policy, FDA approval. Could we hear what you know about each of these treatment option.

Re: what about sonocur?

Dan D. on 1/18/04 at 20:14 (142335)

Dr. Z,

Well, let's see... The Ossatron option I am looking at costs around $5,000.
The sonocur costs around $1,200 (which is a little hard to believe as it seems very inexpensive, but that's the price I was quoted). And the Dornier option costs around $3,500. My understanding is that the Ossatron is FDA approved, the Sonocur is only FDA approved for tennis elbow (I think),and the Dornier I believe has been FDA approved (not sure). My understanding is that the Sonocur uses no anesthesia, the Dornier uses local anesthesia,and the Ossatron either uses local or you go completely under. Your office is the only place that I know that will re-treat a second time free of charge if the first treatment is unsuccessful.
Is all of this relatively accurate? I know that you and Dr. Ed don't always see eye-to-eye on these things, so I would be interested in hearing your opinion as well.

Dan

Re: what about sonocur?

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/18/04 at 20:47 (142337)

Looks pretty good. Is the cost of the dornier one foot or two.?

Re: what about sonocur?

shock man on 1/18/04 at 21:39 (142340)

dude
you dont seem to get it....sonororex isnt fda approved because it is INEFFECTIVE low energy machines do not work as they cannot reach the energy level potential needed for neovascularization....the only proven machine for true treatment of any tendinopathy is the ossatron

Re: what about sonocur?

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/18/04 at 21:46 (142341)

It isn't FDA approved for pf because Siemans never applied for a PMA for chronic insertional plantar fascitis. It is approved for Tennis Elbow. If what you say is true that the ossatron is the only proven treatment for any tendinopathy then the entire world is wrong. The dornier is a high energy FDA approved machine for plantar fasciitis but then you are right
plantar fasciitis isn't considered a tendinopathy condition.

Re: what about sonocur?

Dan D. on 1/18/04 at 22:42 (142347)

Two feet. Yes, I failed to mention that all of those prices are for 2 feet.
Dan

Re: what about sonocur?

Dan D. on 1/18/04 at 22:48 (142348)

Shock man,
Are you a doctor? I'm curious as to what data you have to say with such certainty that the Sonocur is ineffective and that the ossatron is the only effective shock wave therapy machine. Most of what I've read and heard indicates that the verdict is still out on what machine is the most effective. Of course some doctors lean toward a particular machine for various reasons, but I rarely hear any one speak with such certainty as you. What are you basing these statements on?
Dan

Re: what about sonocur? troll alert

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/19/04 at 10:00 (142366)

It is interesting that this fellow shows up from time to time, refusing to identify himself and spreading misinformation. Sonocur and low energy protocols are being used for PF successfully in Canada and Europe for years. The US approvalsystem is unique in that the FDA is requiring studies tendon by tendon, ligament by ligament and classifies ESWT as a category 3 device -- we have gone over this many times in recent years.
Ed

Re: Ossatron vs Dornier vs Sonocur

Tim on 1/19/04 at 17:59 (142391)

If you have access to the Dornier procedure I would go for that.

I had treatment with the Ossatron. It cured my medial/central plantar
fascial pain but injured the lateral band. Causing new pain as bad as
the original.

The Dornier is newer generation technology and uses ultrasound to
guide where the operator is directing the shock energy.

The Ossatron delivers a shotgun blast of energy that isn't aimed or focused very precisely. Typically the operator or your doctor will press
on your foot asking you where it hurts and mark this location with
a Magic Marker. The operator then targets this mark visually.

Also, I would steer clear of a provider that requires a general
anesthetic (many Ossatron procedures/users do). ESWT on the foot is
available without it.

Re: what about sonocur?

shockman on 1/19/04 at 21:39 (142407)

hey zuck

how does dornier work when the area of tx is so tiny from a medial position
only that you cannot tx as effective as the ossatron..also the power level
is not as effective on the total flux and continued studies show that dornier is not effective gee i dont ever see any studies showing that
the ossatron doesnt....why dont you read the latest JAMA article on the shoulder and place your low -e machines up there with the shoe magnets and copper wrist bracelets....a sucker (or zucker) is born every minute

Re: what about sonocur?

shockman on 1/19/04 at 21:42 (142408)

the dornier and sonorex will take their rightful place up there with shoe magnets and copper wrist bracelets.....as wc fields said a zucker is born every minute

Re: what about sonocur?

shockman on 1/19/04 at 21:42 (142409)

hey zuck

how does dornier work when the area of tx is so tiny from a medial position
only that you cannot tx as effective as the ossatron..also the power level
is not as effective on the total flux and continued studies show that dornier is not effective gee i dont ever see any studies showing that
the ossatron doesnt....why dont you read the latest JAMA article on the shoulder and place your low -e machines up there with the shoe magnets and copper wrist bracelets....a sucker (or zucker) is born every minute

Re: Ossatron vs Dornier vs Sonocur

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/19/04 at 22:29 (142413)

Tim:
I agree that the Ossatron could cause the problem you mention although I would consider that to be a problem with operator technique. We realize that the central band of the fascia is by far, the thickest and as such, most of the energy should be focused on that area saving only a small portion for the medial and lateral bands. I would look beyond just the ESWT to make sure that your orthotic is not oversupinating your midtarsal joint and provides adequate lateral column support. There is a 'gait theory of pain' and what that can mean, when there are two painful structures in proximity, the pain signals from the more painful structure will override the pain signals from the less painful structure. Say, for example, the cental band of your fascia was cured, leaving the lateral band uncured, then you would start to notice pain from the lateral band.
This may be somewhat of a more likely scenario.

I realize that the debate over 'aiming' is not going to be settled overnight but users need to have an accurate concept of anatomy and biomechanics. It is much more difficult to injure a body part with low energy due to a combination of more precise aiming, less tissue trauma and especially becasue no anesthesia is used -- the Sonocur advantage.
Dornier uses some anesthesia but used inline ultrasound which basically encourages the user aim for the worst part of the fascia.
Ed

Re: Decorum. Attn: ScottR

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/19/04 at 22:38 (142414)

ScottR:
This fellow, 'Shockman,' has attacked Dr.Z personally three times. Dr. Z has stuck around through thick and thin but name calling and personal attacks go too far. Please consider blocking this individual. This type of behavior really hurts your site. /:)
Ed

Re: what about sonocur?

Dr. Zuckerman on 1/20/04 at 05:42 (142428)

You are the Shockman. Trying to shock eveything and everyone

Re: Decorum. Attn: ScottR

Larry T on 1/20/04 at 15:53 (142467)

Shockman could be a sales rep or a patient with an axe to grind......didnt go to medical school and hates doctors maybe???????

Re: Decorum. Attn: ScottR

Ed Davis, DPM on 1/21/04 at 10:11 (142536)

Larry:
You could be correct. If the forum is to be kept factual and if Scott wants to attract 'quality' information here he needs to enforce a reasonable level of civility. You are relatively new here but there has been a long history of this type of stuff going on here. I used to be a regular poster but make an occasional visit. Many others have come and gone as they just don't have the time or disposition to get into tiffs. If you have the time, go back in history on the boards and you will see what I mean.
Ed